Transcript: Episode #61: Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Crisis in Myanmar
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Bhikkhu Bodhi, which appeared on July 4, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:25
numbers so banded by no no saw
Bhikkhu Bodhi 00:42
no mommy does. backhoe dog.
Host 00:57
Before we get into our upcoming conversation with the venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi, I want to say a few words first, this is not your normal Dhamma talk or discourse on Buddhist doctrine. Rather, our conversation was primarily conducted for Buddhist practitioners who are either in Myanmar or outside the country and supporting the Burmese people. But because this interview may draw in meditators who have not been closely following the situation there, allow me to give a brief update first. On February 1 of this year, the Burmese military known as the tatmadaw illegally overthrew the democratically elected government of Myanmar based on a trumped up claim of voter fraud. Since then, they have brutalized the population abducting and torturing many Burmese while also killing with impunity. There was no safety today, the junta targets not just people non violently protesting their illegal regime, but even those simply hiding in their homes. All independent newspapers and journals have been banned, leaving only state run propaganda. Additionally, doctors and monks have been attacked in broad daylight, and entire communities have been abandoned as residents were forced to flee. is a terrible, messy and fraught situation, one that most Dhamma teachers would not touch with a 10 foot pole. I say this not from conjecture, but from personal experience, given how some teachers and traditions have refused offers to engage in any way with this topic. But not so the venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi who willingly chose to walk into a conversation where there are no easy or even good answers. This makes his moral courage all the more remarkable, at a time when many Buddhist leaders, especially those whose lineage is traced back to Burma, are carrying on their teaching schedules while carefully avoiding these difficult questions. Many of the questions I asked in the interview were sent in by listeners, many of them Burmese Buddhists currently in Myanmar. So these questions as hard and painful as they are, are not abstract theoretical ones. They can serve in real life challenges. They were not intended to trap the vendor will be good Bodi or put them on the spot, but to desperately seek spiritual answers that in many cases their own monkhood is unfortunately not providing. Please permit me a few more words to help set the stage. Too often, practitioners look for black and white moral and scriptural absolutes from the Buddhist teachings which can then be applied in a blanket way over a reality that has many shades of grey. But this is not the venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi his approach. Instead, he adapts the spirit of the teachings directly to this messy reality. So those looking for absolutes, particularly as a means to justify their own continued disengagement maybe left unsatisfied by what he has to say in many cases, but this conversation is not meant for them anyway. One important thing Bhikkhu Bodhi does early on in the conversation is framed the historical context of the Buddhist teachings with regard to involvement in worldly affairs, which grounds the flexible and sensitive advice Bhikkhu Bodhi gives about how the Burmese people might respond to the very challenging circumstances they now find themselves in. This nuanced and informed understanding gives us answers about sensitive topics both depth and weight. One particularly difficult area of questioning concerns the topic of violence. Wherever one happens to stand on this matter, it is again critical to understand the reality of the current crisis in Myanmar. After seizing power, Gen min online has used the military and police apparatuses to systematically terrorize the Burmese people, which has led to an utter breakdown of all societal norms. The usual social contract between civilians and those charged with defending them has now been flipped on its head. Not only our police and military forces disregarding their inherent role of protecting people. They are the main vehicles of terror waged against the Burmese population. So people Me and Mara have no choice but to consider a cube questions of self defense, the most of us have never had to face in our lives in the absence of any institutional support, and with their own religious guides in the Tsongas largely silent as well, many Burmese Buddhists are totally on their own in trying to skillfully wade through these ethical and spiritual dilemmas. In brief, this is the morass that the venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi is willingly waded into knowing he is responding to real life crises where there is simply no good solutions. We thank him for his courageous willingness to engage on these difficult matters. And for the sensitivity and value of his words of wisdom. We say de Sevilla de Silva. Hey, good day. I'm very pleased to be joined for a very special episode on Insight Myanmar podcast, talking to the venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi. And we really thank him for joining us at this critical time. In the conversation that follows, we're going to talk a little about engaged Buddhism, which has really never been as relevant as it is right now, in this present moment of resisting a brutal military coup in Myanmar. So for listeners that are unfamiliar with the term, let's just start out right away with understanding what that is. So, again, Bhikkhu Bodhi, thank you so much for being here with us. We're really honored by your presence. And can you share with us what is engaged Buddhism,
Bhikkhu Bodhi 07:36
I don't think that I have a very neat and concise definition of engaged Buddhism. And probably what we call engaged Buddhism covers a very wide spectrum of different approaches. But what to offer a kind of tentative explanation, I would say engaged Buddhism, is an attempt to apply principles from the Buddhist teaching, perhaps a philosophical framework, as well as the ethical principles that underlie the practice of Buddhism, to apply this framework and these principles of action, to engaging with the momentous and challenging problems that confront humanity in the social, political and economic dimensions of human life. So that is a very broad, and as I said, a tentative way to characterize engaged Buddhism.
Host 08:35
Great, thank you for that. And moving on into the subject of engaged Buddhism within Myanmar. I want to back up a moment and mention that on my platform among my audience of mainly many meditators and monastics around the world who knew I would be having this conversation, I engage them to bring questions and content that they wanted to hear from you on so many of the questions that I'll be asking are informed by how they would like to hear you handle this very difficult topic and give you a warning, some of these questions are not very easy, and we'll be tackling them together. These are not easy things to discuss. And that's why I also just thank you for being on here knowing that this is not going to be an easy topic that is going to be addressed. Let me start with the first question that someone has wanted to ask you. Which is, please, venerable sir, speak directly to those many hundreds of lay Westerners who define themselves as Dhamma, or meditation or mindfulness teachers with affiliation both directly and or indirectly, with both monastic and lay traditions, either from Burma or connected to the country, about their role in actively supporting the spring revolution. What would be your top actions for them to do and why it would be essential for them to act and encourage everyone in their respective les Tsongas to act as
Bhikkhu Bodhi 09:57
well, this is for me, it's a difficult question. Because as I mentioned to Joe earlier, I'm not I don't have a specialized knowledge about what is going on in yet. Let's say I don't have a specialized knowledge about the details of what is taking place in in Yun, Mo just now. I would say that one thing that can be done would be to contribute monetarily to organizations that are providing assistance to people within Myanmar who are currently either in positions of Jeopardy or even deprivation on account of the of the coup initiated by the junta. Another thing that might be done, and it's a little bit tricky, and that is to try to put pressure on your own national government not to deal directly with the, with the military government that has taken control of Myanmar, if and to refuse to entirely to deal with that government and to recognize the national unity government as the legitimate government of the country.
Host 11:14
Right. Thanks for that. On that note, there are many other questions that people were wondering about this intersection between the Buddhist teachings and the discipline that he sent up. I'll reference one of those questions, one of many that came from someone who asked, I would like to know about the boundaries in the Buddhist teachings to monastics with regard to what they are allowed to get involved with and how this contrast with some of the modern engaged Buddhism groups and activities.
Bhikkhu Bodhi 11:43
Again, this is another question that requires a great deal of thought and consideration. What the way I conceive Buddhism, I don't conceive it as having a narrowly fixed essence. But as being a teaching that is flexible, that undergoes evolution and development, in responding to the conditions of the world in which it finds itself, as a Buddha, of course, arose and taught against the background of the ancient Indian contemplate of spiritual culture, in which there was a prevalent view, that those who renounced the world who enter the monastic life with a contemplate of life would maintain a fair amount of pretty wide distance from involvement in worldly activities. And so, but and particularly in the Buddha's time, the dominant form of government was monarchy. There were large powerful monarchies in the state of Magadha. And in the state of Koestler, the primary states in which the Buddha was teaching, and so monastics, would have to keep a distance from any kind of involvement in political and economic matters. And the thrust of the teaching, the way it was expressed in that period, was to aim directly and consistently and continuously as possible for the ultimate goal, which is, of course, the banner. Now, in the contemporary period, the background, social and cultural conditions under which we are living are very different. particularly here in the West, it's expected, based on the heritage of the Judeo Christian religions, it's expected that those who make a commitment to the religious life as priest as ministers, will be knowledgeable about economic and social matters, maybe not specialists, but we'll be able to look at these matters from an ethical point of view, and formulate the appropriate ethical judgments about what kind of actions what kind of policies, what kind of programs are necessary to fulfill the greater social good. I call this a, maybe a spiritual perspective, or a religious perspective on the common good, what are the kinds of policies, programs, laws, and so forth, that should be enacted by a government to promote the greatest good of the population, and even more widely to promote the good and welfare of the world? And so, when we take that perspective, then I would say that there is an obligation not for all monastics, but for a certain number of monastics who have an inclination towards social engagement to come to the forefront and present from the standpoint of Buddha Dharma, the appropriate perspective on these momentous and challenging issues that are facing us today. And sometimes the answers are not always it by no means clear cut. So it requires a fair amount of knowledge investigation, which might lead to contending positions, which is all right, as long as the different parties to the discussion are both trying to maintain a position that they see honestly and sincerely to be consistent with the perspective given to us by the Buddha's dharma.
Host 15:38
Right. And that's really getting at this dynamic between seeing some of these, these doctrines and looking at what the Buddha said during his time as real commandments and specific things that need to be followed to the letter versus something that might be more guidance or more relative morality, and trying to determine how, what he said down and what he said is relevant and applicable today. And that that frames and sets up the next question in which someone asked
Bhikkhu Bodhi 16:09
me I just said, add something to the previous question, what I would say the question it asks about boundaries, I would say that there is a definite boundary for a monastic, not to run for political office, not to campaign on behalf of politicians. And I would say not to probably not to become directly affiliated with one political party, as opposed to other political parties. But still, I would say that monastics, can consider issues of political significance. And without aligning themselves expressly with one party or one politician. They can advocate for specific policies and programs, laws and institutions and so on.
Host 17:01
Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Because that actually reminds me of a conversation I got into where a Western monk in Myanmar as this crisis was unfolding, had written something on social media to the extent of Don't mind me, I'm fine. This doesn't concern me, monks aren't supposed to be involved in politics, I'm just remaining in my monastery and silence and practice as I'm supposed to do. And I pushed back against that post because I felt like he was creating a false binary, where there's a black and white dynamic of either monks are out on the streets, leading the protests, or they stay in their monasteries, minding their own business, not caring who comes to power, and that this was really not helpful, and that we've seen many examples of Western as well as Burmese monks inside and outside the country during this crisis, who have engaged in very compassionate ways with showing a great degree of wisdom and care, and equanimity, but have have been able to find some gradation of how they're engaging so that they are they are not overtly political, leading protests on the streets and running for office. And yet, they are also not closing their eyes and saying, who ends up coming to power and how they come to power is no concern to me, I'm just going to continue doing what I do day after day. So that leads to a related question where someone has asked concerning some of the boundaries that the Buddha set around the extent to which they were permitted to engage in worldly affairs, do you feel it may be appropriate to adapt or even break some of these guidelines now, as the context of our time is so very different from the Buddhist time
Bhikkhu Bodhi 18:39
to the lessons that I would have to, to know what are the specific guidelines that the questioner has in mind?
Host 18:46
Well, they go, they go on to reference, for example, the crisis of global capitalism, the environmental crisis, what's happening in Myanmar is one case as well.
Bhikkhu Bodhi 18:54
Oh, I would say definitely on all of these issues, that would be quite appropriate, even, I would say almost a moral obligation for certain members of the Sangha of the monastic Sangha, to speak up on these issues. And again, to add to the SEC them to analyze them from a Buddhist perspective, and then to advocate the kinds of policies that are seem to be consonant with a Buddhist moral point of view. Something like, for example, like climate change is going to, I mean, it's threatened the very continuation of human civilization on this planet. And if we continue along, the current trajectory is going to result in the devastation of whole regions of this world, they're going to become virtually uninhabitable. And millions of people are going to lose their homelands, even their lives. And so I say that there's definitely a very, very strong moral obligation for Buddhist monastics to speak up on the knee. For governments and the global community to take rapid, effective, determined action on combating climate change. It doesn't mean that they'll all be experts on the kind of energy systems, the details of the energy systems that are to be adopted, there can be debates about that. But I say that there should be quite unanimous voice advocating for strong and rapid action to prevent the continued escalation of climate change.
Host 20:38
Right. Right. Thank you for that. So I want to ask a series of questions. Next that I want to preface by saying, are are not easy. But these are questions that are all coming from Burmese Buddhists that are inside me and Mar. And so I feel an obligation to use this platform to share their voice, even when the things they're asking are as sensitive and vulnerable as these questions are, and we can just take them where they go. But these are questions that really reference the lived, messy reality that they're going through and the difficulty of trying to figure out how to navigate that. So I don't feel it would be fair to leave it out. The question is sad to say it, perhaps the most famous monk in Myanmar today has been very quiet throughout the spring revolution. Yet many religious leaders from all over the world from different religions publicly came out and prayed for those who are bullied and suffered, yet our own famous and revered monk, who people, not the junta have supported with donations from what little money we have had over all these years, will not lift a finger. Why, why, why? And what I would like to add before asking your thoughts is obviously I'm not asking you to, to come down and advocate on behalf of a situation that you're, you're not directly involved to give any thoughts or judgments on a fellow monk, where I would like to see this question going is in the very difficult and painful expression from a devout Burmese Buddhist of, of just the pain in that question that they, they have been giving and supporting someone, a monastic over the years that they have believed in and given their faith in and at this critical time, are not feeling that support back and they don't know what to do, they don't know what to think about it. They don't know how this starts to affect their own relationships with the Sangha that has been so treasured and valued over these years, this reciprocal relationship, and there are stories of monasteries now that are going without food and donations. And of course, this relates to the poverty and the lack of resources going in. But this also relates to a greater thing that my some of my Burmese Buddhist friends have been telling me that there is a loss of face coming that in this particular example, and in a wider example of giving to the local monastery giving to the song giving to the monkhood and this reciprocal relationship, that it's the time when they need solo some kind of solace back more than they ever have, that it's not coming. They simply don't know what to do. So so this is this is the angle that I think is is is the pain that's coming from the question.
Bhikkhu Bodhi 23:28
Yeah, I, as I said, I don't know the details of Bernie Burmese Buddhist him. I've heard of the theoretical side or who I understand to be very famous and very influential within the country. But I don't want to make personal judgments about him. But I think it would be a rather sad situation, if a number of Burmese monks who have highly respected and have prominent leadership positions don't come to the defense of the people, and to the defense of the legitimately elected government, which was the government that was deposed by the hunter, which were thick, which was dominated predominantly by the the National League for Democracy, if they don't come to the defense of the legitimately elected government, and if they don't advocate, I would say for a rapid transition of Myanmar to a multicultural, multi ethnic, multi religious democracy in the fullest sense. So this would be not a matter of them at a kind of personal level, to denouncing the leaders of the military, you know, some of that might be unavoidable. But I would say what should be done is to denounce the very action of a military yanta. Acting contrary to the will of the people by first by deposing the elected government, and then by suppressing those people who protest against that maneuver and event, imprisoning them and shooting them and the most brutal scenes that I've seen in pictures and read about of the military, lower members of the military just coming into the streets and into houses, and just shooting arbitrarily and killing people without any justification. I would say any monastic with a compassionate heart and a commitment to human justice, should be standing up and denouncing those types of actions and calling for a peaceful reconciliation. And as I said, for a transition to a fully democratic mode of government.
Host 25:54
And for those people, those Burmese Buddhists who are now feeling this pain of a lifetime of giving selflessly to monks to make merit and to, to support them materially, and at this moment are feeling left behind and that there are now monasteries, in alms rounds that are being deprived in ways they never have before. For this pain, they're going through what what could you say to them? Yeah,
Bhikkhu Bodhi 26:23
I have to confess that this is a very, very difficult question to answer. Because I don't want to say that they should cut off their material support for the for the monastic Sangha in a general way, they should continue to support the Sangha, even though they might, as a sign of displeasure, reduce the support to some of these prominent monks that they had a lot of trust and who are not standing up for them in their time of need. But the big question is, how do they deal with that pain and the sense of misgiving within themselves. In my same issue, it is a cop out for me to say this, but one just has to recognize that human beings are weak. And sometimes people even people who are esteem monastics will take an easy route out if they feel it's necessary to preserve their own status, their own position, their own support. So suppose that there are some leading monks who are apprehensive that if they speak up against the military, that they will maybe be personally endangered. Either that their support from the government will be cut off, or even that they'll be arrested and imprisoned, I would say that that would be a mark on their part of coward. It's a little strange to say this, but a mark of cowardice and self seeking, putting their own narrow and selfish interests above that of the well being of the people that they're supposed to be serving above even the Dharma itself. When we view the Dharma in the way it should be presented in a critical time like this. So I said, Is this a case of putting self interest above the Dharma, and above their commitment to the people? So I would say that the people who look upon these mugs maybe should look upon them with compassion, but also for for their failure to live up to their responsibility, but also with a strongly critical attitude that this is a mark of cowardice on their part, or, in any case, a failure to fulfill their responsibilities on an occasion where you can really distinguish who are people have strong moral courage, willing to put their own well being at risk, and those who give precedence to their material and material well being and esteem above that of their obligation to the population and to the drama itself?
Host 29:26
That's a very beautiful answer. Thank you for speaking that strong way to what is very difficult situation. And before I had mentioned this kind of this gradation, that it's not this false binary of being political marketing in the streets or staying behind and doing nothing and the next question reflected that this is and again, these are these are all questions at the moment coming from Burmese Buddhist that are in the country and trying to find answers, and so will very much value what you're able to provide and thought reflections. And this question is that the lay disciples support the Tsonga by providing these basic requisites and now this lay Tsonga is in trouble. So what role do monks have in the current situation in terms of what they can give back at this critical moment?
Bhikkhu Bodhi 30:16
In a way? I think maybe some of the answers to the question I've already touched on, I would certainly say that the monks, at least certain monks who have these particular skills, capacities, dispositions should be out in the forefront, speaking up and criticizing the military junta, and calling for a peaceful transfer of power from the cool leaders back to a democratically elected government. This doesn't mean that all monks should be able to do this. But I would think it would be very wonderful if at least a large numbers of monks would come out onto the streets, and march in solidarity with the people and come maybe to the seat of government and stand in front of the seat of government, and conduct the kind of silent vigil and maybe bringing them meditation mats sitting down on the mats in front of the Capitol building or other prominent government, government buildings, sitting in silent meditation, perhaps with their with one hand raised and the three finger salute, or maybe with signs with the three finger salute. And just sitting there in silence, I think would make a very, very powerful statement, both to the people in government, to the general lay population, and also through photography, assuming that photographers are still allowed in Myanmar. When the images get broadcast over the international media. I think it would help to mobilize stronger international support for the action against the hunter in Myanmar. Remember, I saw on I think it was on the Irrawaddy website, there was a photograph of monks sitting with three fingers raise, but I think they were sitting in their temple. But there was about 20 monks sitting in neat rows, with their fingers raised and the three finger gesture, and it was a very powerful image. But if they're doing this in front, out on the streets or in front of the government buildings, it would again send a very powerful message. I remember in I think it was 2007 when the saffron revolution took place, the so called saffron revolution, when lines of Buddhist monks marched out onto walked out onto the streets and marched past the home of Anson Suchi. And then Moscow, the main streets of Yangon. Again, it reached the whole international international community and it evolved very, very strong sympathy for the for the demonstration that was taking place in Myanmar, even though that demonstration ended rather tragically,
Host 33:24
yes, indeed, by monks, by virtue of who they are renouncing society, they somewhat ironically and counter intuitively have a power in that society that those who have not renounce do not. And so through their renunciation and through their suppose that adherence to these higher moral precepts, they do have a moral standing to us that others do not if they choose to. Right, so moving on to the next topic, not surprisingly, on this issue, we received a wide number of questions inquiring about the rule of harm at this moment, where many believe we're approaching if we're not already in a kind of killed or be killed scenario or at least harm or be harmed. And looking at this question is not quite as black and white as one would think at first glance. Simply because short of killing there is a wide range of methods from self defense to diversionary techniques, threats, sabotage, or provoking mild injuries. So before one gets to strict non violence of any kind, there's this range of options that unfortunately, people are now discovering. I'm personally in touch with many dedicated practitioners in Myanmar, who are having to contemplate things now that never in a million years would they have expected to. These are people that are careful to never even harm a mosquito and if they accidentally do kill or harm a mosquito, they immediately take the five precepts that in there that start with a clean slate. So these are people that are now considering the unthinkable that are coming from a background of being a very devout and devoted practitioner. So before I ask more specific questions on this topic, what generally would you say as guidance to a Buddhist who is now facing and living through these terrible circumstances,
Bhikkhu Bodhi 35:21
I would say the most important and general guideline would be, do not kill or attempt to kill. But I don't think that the precept was the first precept penalty pata waiver monies he copied on somebody army, main specifically do not kill. And then it's elaborated to not kill or cause others to kill on one's behalf. I don't think that rules out the use of physical force to prevent others from inflicting great harm. It doesn't. Intel, an attitude of complete pacifism, when necessary, when can use force, even strong force to prevent harm, as long as one doesn't have the intention to kill, or take an action which is likely to result in in killing or in serious physical injury.
Host 36:27
So one question and this is also like many of these very difficult question surrounds your position on just wars. This is related to an article that you wrote, some years ago and the inquiring mind and I will quote from, from the article these I should mention that this is these these lines are taken from different parts of the article to to give a sense of what you were expressing they weren't all in one passage. This quote that you wrote goes as follows. If one relies solely on clinical statements, the volition of harming others, would always be considered wrong intention and all acts of destroying life classed as unwholesome. But what do we maintain that in this situation and here you're referring to Nazis, particularly in Germany, military actions, stop the aggressor is laudable even obligatory, and that a soldier's actions can be viewed as morally commendable? hesitantly, I would have to adapt this latter position, even though I cannot justify it by appeal to Buddhist texts, whether in the canons or commentaries and the question that the person would like to ask, based on this quotation is in this current situation, the tatmadaw the Burmese military, is by definition committing atrocities and genocide in Myanmar, are the citizens and ethnic armies acting reasonably even ethically, in fighting back against the tatmadaw in order to protect life and defend villages and cities? Can the young people of Burma and ethnic armies be commended for fighting back in the face of the overwhelming atrocities committed by the top now?
Bhikkhu Bodhi 38:10
I'm not going to try to relate my answer to my previous to that previous article. But I did have ads coming from that article published in the inquiring mind, I had the continuing debate with another monk through a series of articles and in the inquiring mind, and one I came up with one other instance of maybe several but once remains very strong strongly in my mind, because it's quite relevant to things that happen in the United States today, very sadly. Which to my mind shows that there are circumstances in which event the act of killing can be morally justified. And when I say this, I don't want to say that the act of killing is in any way without context good, or that it is in accord with the Buddhist precepts , but we take a case where an angry man who maybe his girlfriend has just had him gets hold of an AR 15 a powerful semi military type assault rifle, comes into a school yard and starts shooting school children who are playing ball in the school yard. Okay, now a policeman is alerted to this and he comes and he sees the man with the gun shooting the children. Okay to stop the killing. He can't go up to the killer and try to persuade him stop killing. At a distance he can't shoot just so that he hits the band and the leg or the arm to knock him down to stop this angry man from shooting children. He's going to have to shoot straight and directly at the killer, probably killing him in the process. Okay, so from a moral point of view, even though we say that that act of shooting the killer is contrary, it's a violation of the first precept, but luck that, from a moral point of view, I would say, I don't want to say it's wholesome. But I would say it's a necessary evil to prevent a much more extensive and tragic destruction of life. Okay, now the question that would come to my mind is whether we can transpose the factors of that situation to the current situation, confronting the people in Myanmar, perhaps there are situations where it might be necessary. I know I'm going to probably going to get a lot of flack for saying this as a monk. But suppose military people come into a village, just line up a number of innocent people or people who have just expressed some discontent with the military, you line them up against the wall and start shooting them. And somebody in one of the houses in the village has a gun. And he comes out and sees the only way he can save his fellow villagers is by shooting these soldiers. What are we to say about that? Maybe I could just leave that question hanging in the air. So I don't have to make a judgement about it, but just let it let people judge for themselves. But having said that, I want to speak just my general assessment of what would be appropriate, where we have the people versus that type madore. The military leaders, the general advice would be to maintain a non violent approach, or at least an approach that doesn't involve healing. First of all, is more consistent with the Buddhist precepts. And second of all, it gives to the resistance movement, a moral strength, a kind of moral command, in presenting their position to the world. Whereas if one goes on engaging in a kind of guerrilla warfare against the military enter, well, it's going to descend into a long drawn out guerrilla conflict that could go on for years, and result in many more deaths.
Host 42:40
Yeah, and I think the first month or two really showed the protest movements commitment to non violence. This showed the strides they were making. And there's examples of tense confrontations between city police that should be mentioned not not the more egregious military divisions, and protesters that were diffused by offering them water, having conversations, giving them food, giving them shade on a hot day. And these were shown in these episodes were highlighted as being really a part of their strategy. And there was no one or very few people, very, very few people at that time, who were really looking at any violent response and really hoping that a non violent result could happen. And you reference this example, this theoretical example of the village and I want to affirm to listeners who might not be as familiar, this is not a theoretical example. This is these are actual examples that are being faced every day either in terms of actuality of violence coming and a few days ago, there was an entire village burned to the ground. These are also potential dangers were things that have might not happened yet are always on the cusp of happening. And so these villages and villagers are tasked with trying to figure out how they defend themselves and what range of options they have to not be sitting ducks that are going to be lined up and executed point blank and have their their homes burned to the ground. These these are not theoretical ideals that that they are holding. But these are actual things that they are trying to figure out. And another example I would put there another another theoretical example of things that are actually happening in art spies. What would you do if there was a spy in your community who you you had it verified this was a spy, you knew what they were doing. And every day more and more people from your community were disappearing, to be killed to be tortured to be imprisoned be disappeared. And if one went to the spy and encouraged them, please stop doing this. Just move away. Just get away from here or knock it off and whatever reasoning Or even threats were taking place, this spy would not stop. And again, this these are not theoretical examples. These are things that people are actually dealing with every day, this spy was day by day threatening the life instability of every single person living there, whether or not they were involved or not. They had power over life and death are very, very arbitrary and how they used it. So what would you do in this case, and so, these to cite These examples are not to prove one point or another. But they're so that we're operating from the same place. Because when I do hear spiritual teachers, or, or different advocates, from their own policies weigh in on what people should be doing, that are actually faced with this danger, it's often not in touch with the specific detailed realities of what they're actually facing. And if someone can take their spiritual background or their policy or advocacy standpoint, and find a way for it to be practical and usable within these specific situations that, you know, help, you know, help us all that none of us ever have to be in, well, then maybe that's something of value, but we can't really talk about these greater these greater spiritual or policy values without knowing and immersing ourselves in the reality of what people are actually in. So on that point, I'll get to a another question that's here, this comes from another listener on this topic. And it is we might often in life have to take strong action. But if this is so it should be done only with a calm mind and with good intent, not with anger or antagonism. Can this extend to killing a person where survival is at stake? And let me cut in here and this question and reference that this is actually dovetailing perfectly with what I referenced before this is actually a question based on if one is living in these actual terrible circumstances. And let me go on with the question. I hope that I never have to face that in reality, but there might be a situation when several or many are in danger, where killing might seem the only best action in order to prevent harm to innocence and even limit the lot the total loss of life. Or should one only try to maintain metta and nothing more accepting what happens. I have often in earlier years successfully intervene to stop violence against others. But it was always with a calm mind and good intent and with no violence on my part,
Bhikkhu Bodhi 47:28
again, very difficult question. Okay. There's a position which I've heard coming out from maybe the Tera vaada, or the Dharma commentarial tradition, which says that it's impossible to kill, unless one is doing so with a mind of hatred. I'm not sure that I agree with that. Again, I don't want this appear on this podcast to be seem like I'm the great evil advocate of killing and destruction. But I understand that there are these extremely difficult moral crises in which one might find oneself. And I believe that there are situations where one might face the choice of either killing somebody else oneself, or allowing many other people to be killed. And that presents one with an extremely difficult moral choice. And I would say, fairly reluctantly, but in that situation, it would be possible even for people in certain situation, not for a monastic, who will be in danger of losing his or her monastic status, by performing the act of killing. But it would be possible to take the life of the offender of the aggressor, in doing so with a mind of compassion for the offender, perhaps the moment when pulls the trigger or whatever, at that moment, there will be a mind of hatred. But I would say that surrounding the act preceding it and following it, there can be a mind of compassion, and of deep regret and remorse that is necessary to take the step. But one recognizes that, under these conditions, and given my particular temperament, my concern for the well being of the population of the village or the general population of the country, given my concern for the greater good of the greater number, that act of killing might become the more desirable course rather than just continuing to it strictly to the principle of non harming, right? These
Host 50:03
are really difficult questions in which no easy answer comes Unfortunately, the reality of the moment. And a follow up question to that is about the use of violence. How relative is karma? Given the significance of intention, intentionality? How would innocence be protected otherwise? And is violence ever justifiable?
Bhikkhu Bodhi 50:28
I think I dealt with the question of whether violence is ever justifiable by saying that there are situations in which one can make the choice to adopt an action that we would call violent, but it's being performed, to the greatest extent possible without a mind of hatred without a mind of anger. But, as I said, even with a mind of compassion to the perpetrator, for the purpose of protecting the well being and the lives of a greater number of people, how this works out karmically in terms of the working of the law of karma, I say definitely the act of taking life even in that situation, probably would have to spring from an we call an acoustal, a cheetah and unwholesome volition. And in that sense, it would be generating an unwholesome karma, a negative karma, but there are so many ameliorating conditions counteractive conditions operating in this case, which are sort of weakening the force of that negative karma, the fact that one is doing this, not from it, desire to harm the other person, not with anger or hatred, not because one has a hit habitual disposition to kill. One is doing this reluctantly, with the primary motivation to protect the lives of others. So in that case, I would say that the negative karma generated by the action would be comparatively much weaker than that generated by an active killing under other circumstances, where the motivation is anger and hatred, or, or for the sake of enjoyment, for for the sake of monetary gain, and so forth.
Host 52:24
Thank you for that. The getting to the last topic here is this subject of karma? And this the questions don't get any easier. So I apologize for that as people that are grappling with, with things we can't imagine. The first question and looking at karma is, before we were looking more at what one is doing now and the karmic effects that might have this is kind of going the other direction about how can what we understand now be under the explained or understood by karma, if at all. And the question is, simply, why is Burma suffering now, this is a golden land, which is preserved the Buddhist teachings were some of the greatest Dharma teachers the world has ever known or from and were some of the known to reach full liberation. Does this have something to do with this notion of collective karma? If so, when will the collective karma of this great sacred land ripen to ensure that Burma and the Burmese are deeply in perennially peaceful, happy, prosperous, safe, happy and free?
Bhikkhu Bodhi 53:29
That's the kind of question that it would take a summer some Buddha perfectly enlightened. To answer properly, I sometimes wonder whether everything that happens to an individual, but to a group of people or a nation of people, is happening. Through the ripening of past karma. I really don't know my under the way I approach the teaching of karma, I approach it from the cause looking to the effect. So I know that if I engage in an unwholesome action, killing, stealing, and so forth, those actions will create unwholesome karma. And then if that karma gets the chance to ripen, it's going to ripen will mature in some kind of suffering some kind of undesirable results. But I'm not sure that that's necessarily the case that everything all the misfortune that we face in life is coming about as the ripening of karma. Maybe it's a given analogy. I know that if it rains, rains heavily enough, the ground is going to get wet. So we could go from the cause the rain to the effect, the ground getting wet, but if I see it as they grow As wet, I can't inevitably infer that it had rained, the ground could have gotten wet because somebody was carrying a bucket of water. And they dropped the bucket. And the water flowed over the over the sidewalk and made the sidewalk wet. Or somebody could have had a sprinkler going to water the lawn that made the sidewalk get wet. Yeah, so it could be that the misfortunes the that we face in life, political economics, social, even disasters, natural disasters as well are coming about like this is just the nature of human existence. in society. There's no conflicts and contentions from power. There are people with bad intentions who get into power and inflict suffering on others. There is it's the nature of the earth to go through earthquakes, the nature of volcanoes is occasionally to explode. Sometimes the weather will bring cyclones and hurricanes, which will wipe out villages and towns and homes. And I wouldn't draw that up, let's say I'm uncertain whether we can draw the fixed conclusion that these events are happening through the ripening of past karma. But we use that I myself use the teaching of karma as a way to determine how I should be acting myself in the present, if I want to avoid unfortunate the unfortunate ripening of that karma in the future,
Host 56:45
right on this subject of karma, I have seen from those Western Buddhist especially who want to justify their non engagement, they have primarily done so through their understanding of karma and especially of collective karma. I've seen various forms of argument that relay something like this is this is simply the karma ripening collectively over time and this is the way things must play out and almost a kind of pedantic response to those who want to engage as lacking in some greater Buddhist wisdom for not understanding the role that karma plays and thereby justifying their own non engagement through some kind of greater wisdom that these are things outside of our control. So, for those that are using notions of collective karma, or karma in general, as being a reason for why this is happening, and why this is simply all we can do is sit back and send meta because these are things out of our control, what what would be your response to that kind of attitude?
Bhikkhu Bodhi 57:54
Yeah, first I was, I would say that, even if say the misfortunes that are facing the calamities that are facing Myanmar and other countries right now, even if that is due to karma, it doesn't mean that this karma is fixed. And endeavor that this karma inevitably has to ripen in precisely this way. Perhaps suppose hypothetically, that it is due to karma, but that karma can be prevented from ripening in this way from producing its full impact by adopting counteractive action to use an analogy at a more individual level. Okay, suppose the person who gets ill suppose they come down with the COVID with the Coronavirus. Suppose it's your own relative, you're not just going to let him lie there in the bed, especially if he's an older relative, maybe in the 70s and 80s, where there's a true danger of death. You're not just going to sit there and say, okay, that's his karma. So let the karma play out. There's nothing I can do about it. But what you will do is bring your relative to a hospital will try to get the best doctor to luck. Look at him, get him a bed in the hospital and to arrange for him to get a ventilator if he needs it and to get medical treatment to help him get over the infection with the Coronavirus. Yeah, so maybe he got infected with the Coronavirus because of his past karma. But when you apply the appropriate medical means, then you can block the ripening of that karma and give the opportunity for it to you know, to dissipate and become effective. And I think we could apply that analogy to larger social units. In this case at the national level if the nation is facing widespread social economic, political disasters by Arriving at a suitable political solution to the problem, we could stop that karma from ripening and give the opportunity for some of the good karma that Myanmar has accumulated over the year, the decades and centuries to give the opportunity for that karma to ripen.
Host 1:00:19
Thank you. Yeah, that is an answer informed with wisdom. And that also illustrates to us how we can respond in ways of compassion that is informed with wisdom that is not just based solely on a kind of activist approach of just thinking that we can do whatever we want. And that it's that we just have to, through our own passion and dedication that we can we can change things that that that there are things beyond our control, and that we recognize that rule of karma, but that that is not serving as any kind of barrier for our compassion and engagement. So this is a way to balance those. And I'm sorry, there was one last topic I misspoke. Just a couple of questions on it. And this concerns, the Rohingya crisis the last few years some of the anti muslim sentiment that we've seen, and one listener wanting to know, here, when Myanmar itself is going through this great crisis, and there are there there has been some Buddhist response around the world to the current crisis. And this listener wants to know why was there not a greater response from Buddhist monks around the world at the time during the Rohingya crisis itself?
Bhikkhu Bodhi 1:01:36
Actually, there was a fairly prominent response from Buddhists, I don't want to say from Buddhist monks. But here in the United States, there was a pretty strong response from Buddhists to the Rohingya crisis back at least in 19, well, 2015 and again, was a 2017 or 2018. Yeah, so quite a number of us. And Alan's dalkey played a very important role in this, like drafted wrote a letter, I believe it was like to the President, it must have been if it was 2000, I doubt that we would have written I don't remember who we wrote to it wouldn't have been President Trump was I don't think we would have expected to get much of a response from Trump. But we did draft maybe a letter that was published in a Buddhist magazine, calling on the on the government of Myanmar, to avoid the prosecution to to stop the prosecution of the row hinges and to to provide suitable conditions for the Rohingya community to become fully recognized as citizens of Myanmar to be endowed with all of the rights going to citizens. Yes, there was a response from from the Buddhist community in the United States. But I remember I have to say, rather sadly, I believe this was around the time of 2015, when a significant number of Rohingya were fleeing Myanmar on these little makeshift boats and heading towards Malaysia sink in perhaps Indonesia, what Thailand and I wrote something, and it was published, I paste it, posted it on Facebook. And then I got hit rather badly by a number of monks from Myanmar, telling me just like the comments that would go to that post, saying that there are no Rohingya people. That is just as like a fabricated designation, that they're really Bengali Muslims who are who are living in Myanmar, and comments like that what's rather disturbed me? Because these were monks that previously I had some friendly exchanges with. And now suddenly, I was being you know, attacked just for mentioning that need to recognize and respect the rights of the of the Rohingya,
Host 1:04:27
right. And in this crisis, many Bomar have come out and have been issuing apologies for how they did not understand this issue, how they had fallen for propaganda or they had not taken the time to be critical about what might be going on could be going on, and that the number of the guests I've had on this platform, the Bomar guests have really gone out of their way to just express their shame and their apology for even not not in any kind of way of seeking you know, using that to seek some Kind of supporting something else, but just simply in stating that they screwed up and that they really, really felt sorry for that, for this kind of perfect storm of events of Facebook becoming as popular as it did, and a country that had previously had almost no access to internet. So it didn't go through the kind of timeline we did and the military propaganda and the reforms that were happening that it it that many did fall for that. And today, many not not all, but many are trying are seeking some kind of reconciliation and what their views contributed at the time now that they see this military for what it is. Yeah, so the last question I want to ask I want to preface this by saying that I have been hesitating up to this moment, whether or not I want to ask even the question. And so I will ask this with the caveat that it can be passed. And it can also be a response that is given, but we keep it offline, and it does not it does not remain part of the overall interview. On one hand, I think there's some value in the question. On the other hand, I think it does go in some tangential places, and I haven't been able to decide what to do with it. So I'll leave that with you how you how and if you want to approach it and if you want to keep it in the text of the interview. The question is, regarding the Muslim Buddhist conflict, we seem to have two extremes. On the one hand violence against Muslims. This is non Buddhist since Buddhism is non violent. On the other hand, we have the narrative that Islam is non violent. For example, the Dalai Lama stated quote, any person who wants to indulge in violence is no longer a genuine Buddhist or genuine Muslim because it is a Muslim teaching that you are in that that once you are involved in bloodshed, actually, you are no longer a genuine practitioner of Islam and quote, this view is popular but totally false. Anyone who has studied the Quran and Sunnah, understands Muhammad killed many people and taught his followers to kill, we cannot claim he and his disciples were not Muslim. Furthermore, Pew Research shows in 2013, over 53% of Muslims in nearby Malaysia want the death penalty for anyone who leaves Islam. for Egypt and Pakistan, it was 64% death by stoning for adultery is even more popular. Both of these Islamic laws posted specific dangers to Burma. How can there be any solution in Burma or the West? If the non violent side does not face the truth of violence of Islamic doctrine, and the mainstream nature of adherence to that violent doctrine?
Bhikkhu Bodhi 1:07:31
Again, another difficult question. I think, certainly, there has to be resistance in every country where there's a significant but non majority Muslim population, to the to the adoption of principles of Islam that advocate for violence. But I think it has to be recognized again, clearly, that historically, Islam has constantly resorted to violence to spread its teachings. That is how Islam spread from Saudi Arabia, across North Africa, across parts of Europe and across going eastwards, across the Middle East, and even to South Asia. To a great extent, through the use of violence and forced conversion, that is part of the historical legacy of Islam that has to be faced, honestly. I just have to disagree completely with the Dalai Lama here. And the statements that you were made just a few minutes, a few minutes ago, confirm that. But I think that every religion, any religion can go through transformation and evolution. And I think the way a religion responds to other that a religion, even one with a violent history, will respond to other religions, in accordance with a way that it is treated by the followers of those of that other religion. So I think that if, say, Muslims in Myanmar, are welcomed and given a place within the fabric of the country, if they're treated with kindness and respect, I would be hopeful first, that they would not resort to the use of violence to try to propagate their own religion and also that they would recognize that they are a minority religion and not try to use either forceful means or any kind of material inducement to convert others to Islam. Wouldn't be my hope. But of course, hopes are always contingent upon circumstance. But certainly I would say a country like Myanmar today has to recognize that it is a multi religious country, in wishes, of course, is a dominant, Myanmar, the charity, a dominant Buddhist majority, but also a fairly significant Muslim minority Christian minority. Perhaps there are some Hindus still in Myanmar that I don't know. But there has to be a place for the followers of all religion within the country without any kind of prosecution. stigmatization marginalization, otherwise, they'll be an ending conflict and more and more people kill.
Host 1:10:49
Well, I thank you so much for your time. I know these are really not easy questions and the responses that you give, while they provide so much value and support for those that are involved in this issues, wherever they are, that they don't necessarily benefit you that you've been put on the spot. And you've had to face these vulnerably and courageously, knowing the impact that some of your answers might give. But those answers are not going solely for this intellectual community to debate they're going for people where this is these are real issues in their life of following these teachings while in impossible situations. And so the value of that is just beyond description of what you have provided. I also want to take a moment to say that this interview will be listened to by many English speaking Burmese Buddhists in the country, I'm sure that some if not all of it will be translated for them to hear of a revered monastic who is referencing these teachings in ways that relate directly to what they're facing and what they're offering. And referring back to the question of the person who was facing the sadness and pain for not feeling the support from monastics and her community and her town, and was greatly desiring of a kind of solace, that would be expressed to her from from a monk and not hearing it and her voice being one that is not just speaking for herself. But speaking for this wider lay community, I just want to give you a chance to speak directly to them. Any words of support or guidance or encouragement to let them know that they're there is a monk who from where you might be in terms of geography and culture, and language might be quite different, but that they are not alone. And that's something that so many of the country and not just Burmese Buddhists, but of the entire country need to hear. So I just want to give you a moment to say whatever words of encouragement or guidance you would like for those that are listening here now.
Bhikkhu Bodhi 1:13:14
Yeah, first, I will say that I truly feel their pain and sorrow and discipline, especially the disappointment, I feel that in my own heart, it's somewhat difficult for me to imagine what it would be like to be in a situation where they've had sort of trust, faith and devotion towards certain monks for many, many years. And then in their time of need their time of crisis, when they expect those monks to come up and stand stand up and advocate on their behalf and the monks are silent., I really feel that pain, sorrow and disappointment within myself. While I would say is not to become angry, and then towards that, those monks that become vindictive towards them, but maybe to generate a mind of compassion towards them. And if one has the opportunity, I don't know how easy communication is within Myanmar. But if there is an opportunity, even for a group of people who have those feelings to get together, and to draft, a letter, not an email, but a written or maybe a written letter, can go through the post in Myanmar, but to find some means of communication, to write to that monk or those monks to express your disappointment, sorrow, and maybe ask for an explanation why they're remaining silent, how they can remain silent, when, particularly at this time, their voice is so urgently needed.
Host 1:14:53
Thank you for that. And before we close, was there anything else about the topic or anything in general, but my question didn't address that you'd like the chance to say,
Bhikkhu Bodhi 1:15:02
I think you already covered quite a wide range of topics. I have to say this was one of the toughest interviews that I've ever had.
Host 1:15:09
I'm sorry.
Bhikkhu Bodhi 1:15:11
No, no, no, you shouldn't be. Sorry for that. I think it was, it was good that you brought the questions up. Yes, but the issue is a very, very delicate issues. Yeah. And, you
Host 1:15:22
know, I do have to just remind that, that many of these questions were coming in from people I surveyed, and many of those the majority were Burmese Buddhists who are in country now. And I think framing the questions and extrapolating from them was quite important, but getting the depth of, of sorrow and of urgency that these questions came from, that are not being responded to by anyone. I felt a compulsion to honor their voice to not have their voice silenced, no matter what the risks were for carrying it on this platform. And, and in asking you to be able to represent certain questions and pains that that are simply not being responded to, and, and that this carries it. And I think that this will talking about things that are scarcely talked about, but lived and thought about to quite a degree, I think I I hope that this is this is not seen by anyone as the answers and the, you know, the just the definitive response, but as a start for a wider questions, and maybe the questions themselves need to be examined and looked at. And that's wonderful. These are this is not the final tally of of this, these, this is the voice of people who are trying to figure out very difficult things. And if this question continues in Myanmar and outside, in Buddhist communities and outside, in monastic as well as lay communities, I think that this is putting us on the right track. But we have to know and immerse ourselves in those messy details in order for our spiritual guidance and our support to be valuable otherwise, it just becomes platitudes.
Bhikkhu Bodhi 1:17:14
Yeah, exactly. And I want to add that the statements that I made in the close of this interview, a lot of them should be viewed as my personal opinions, and not so authoritative dicta sort of coming down from the high seat of authority, but my opinions, the way to resolve these very difficult ethical dilemmas. And I think if ethics does not throw these difficult dilemmas at us, then it's not really ethics, the task of ethics is to help us think through and to sort out these challenges were were pulled in one direction by one particular aspect of a situation and pulled in the other direction by another aspect of the situation, then we have to sort of take a broad view of all of the different factors involved, and come to a judgement about for us as Buddhists, what particular course of action, what kind of attitude, what kind of perspective to take, is most in harmony with the perspective that we would obtain from the Dhamma itself, the canonical teachings, but also the way, the spirit of the teaching rather than the letter of the teaching applies to the critical situations in which we find ourselves today, on many different fronts.
Host 1:18:40
That's very important. And I'm really glad you said that because in referencing the article and the inquiring mind, as well as the discussion that resulted in afterward that I did see and look at before this interview, one of the confusions that I saw was pushback from of what you were saying, to push back into criticize some of those viewpoints as not being in law in line with certain other doctrine. And I saw you explaining, I think, rightly so that clarifying rather that these were your own perspectives and trying to work out where some religious doctrine and tax coincides with lived reality, and that these were your own personal reflections and working that out. And I think you reaffirming here, the same thing, I hope that we'll get ahead of what I would think would be misinformed criticism. And I also think what you're doing is quite and I've said this before, is quite courageous and vulnerable, because you, I think, for someone to make an argument and have a conversation based on various authoritative texts and interpretations and commentaries and different scholars and views that have come to reinforce or push back against this or that I think you're on one is on a bit. firmer ground to be able to, to rest there and to make arguments based on there. But sometimes that firmer ground is not as helpful for the actual problems and the messiness we face and lived reality. And that's what this discussion is focused on. It's focused on the actual reality that these Burmese Buddhists are living with. And to bring this the the background of religious texts and teachings as a guide and guidance into how do we face actual situations that could come. These are conversations that cannot really get to easy places, they don't leave you with a lot of good options and expressions for figuring that out. And I think you leave behind safety when you choose to go there. And yet, by choosing to go there, you are, you know, in many ways standing with the people and you are responding to the actual problems that of life and death that Burmese Buddhists are facing. That they would also much rather not have to talk with and grapple but by us talking with and grappling and reflecting and thinking about we are in solidarity with them in times that let's be honest, no one wants to face
Bhikkhu Bodhi 1:21:16
Yeah, exactly.
Host 1:21:18
Yeah. So with that, thank you so much for this difficult conversation. Thank you for taking everything head on and this has just been of enormous service.
Bhikkhu Bodhi 1:21:25
Okay, thank you for giving me the opportunity to consider these questions. The door Namaste me. So banded by No. saw God. No mommy does.
Host 1:22:20
After today's discussion, it should be clear to everyone just how dire the situation is in Newmar. We are doing our best to shine a light on the ongoing crisis. And we thank you for taking the time to listen. If you found today's talk of value, please consider passing it along to friends in your network. And because our nonprofit is now in a position to transfer funds directly to the protest movement, please also consider letting others know that there was now a way to give that support to the most vulnerable and to those who are specially impacted by this organized state terror. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form of currency or transfer method. every cent goes immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. Donations go to support such causes as a civil disobedience movement CBM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guests you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website, which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me slash better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and cash app. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts, or email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma one word spelled b e t t e r bu r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration. So you've been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we'd appreciate it very much. If you could rate review and or share this podcast. Every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes. If you can't find our feed on your podcast player, please just let us know and we'll ensure it can be offered there in the future. Also, make sure to check out our website for a list of our complete episodes, including additional text videos and other information available at Insight myanmar.org. And I also invite you to take a look at our new nonprofit organization at better burma.org. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a POST request specific questions and join in on discussions currently going on. On the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You're also most welcome to follow our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter accounts by the same name. If you're not on social media, feel free to message us directly at info at Insight myanmar.org. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that form here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible. Currently, our team consists of two sound engineers, Mike pink and Martin combs. There's of course Zack Kessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with editing and a special Mongolian volunteer who is asked to remain anonymous does our social media templates. In light of the ongoing crisis in Myanmar, a number of volunteers have stepped in to lend a hand as well. And so we'd like to take this time to appreciate their effort and our time of need. And we're always on the lookout for more volunteers during this critical time. So if you'd like to contribute, definitely let us know. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us in arranging for the guests we've interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves, for agreeing to come on and share such personal powerful stories. Finally, we're immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We want to remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect the hosts or other podcast contributors. Please also note that we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show. There's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us this recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes video, audio written transcripts or excerpts of any episodes. Also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we're very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. If you would like to support our mission we welcome your contribution during this time of crisis all donations now go towards supporting the protest movement in Myanmar through our new nonprofit better Burma. You may give by searching better Burma on paypal Venmo cash app, GoFundMe and patreon as well as via credit card at better burma.org slash donation You can also give right on our Insight Myanmar website is all donations given there are directed towards the same fund. And with that, we're off to work on the next show. So see you next episode yeah oh yeah. The way he Yeah.