Transcript: Episode #62: A History of Violence
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Lynn, which appeared on July 11, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:19
During the current crisis unfolding in Myanmar, events are happening so fast that it could feel challenging to keep up with them. Although we're working to increase our podcast production far beyond what we've ever done before, to meet the needs of this ever changing crisis, we feel that the podcasts alone still do not address the full range of everything going on. So we encourage you to also check out the blogs on our website, Insight myanmar.org. Also, feel free to check out our other social media sites. Just look for Insight Myanmar, or Burma Dhamma on your preferred platform, and to engage in this topic more deeply and discuss with other practitioners head over to the Facebook group meditation in Burma slash Myanmar. With that, let's head to our show.
Lynn 01:10
Red gun battle has broken out in Myanmar's second largest city of Mandalay. At least eight protesters have been killed in clashes between the army and civilian forces. Such as sightings are no longer read in Myanmar. Notice such sound gun battles have broken out between the army and various civilian groups. Army has declared the people's Defence Force as terrorists
May Oo 01:50
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Lynn 05:39
the military coup took place on first February. But, you know, the night before I got a hint of, you know, the possible crew are during the night time. And I wasn't very sure, you know, at first it's like, unbelievable. It's, it's, it's, it's, you know, traveling back in time going back to like 19th century or something. So something of this magnitude in the political scenario of democracy, you know, we were really prepared already for it. So I was like, half, you know, doubtful about whether or not this hint, this, this rumor of the cruise, you know, in the nighttime, were really happen. But luckily, I've got a few good friends. And one of them is the daughter of one of the most prominent, you know, ministers within all sensitivities administration. So, I saw her online, and I started chit chatting with Han, as, you know, what she has heard about, and she told me that our family is prepared, you know, to be taken away from their homes, they all packed and all those things, and she said, it's gonna happen, the cube is gonna really happen. And, and, and her father, the Minister, is just waiting in the lobby, you know, to be taken away. So I was I was not even when she said, so I was not sure. You know, it's gonna maybe, you know, they're just being to worry, you know, maybe just there they are hearing, you know, unfounded rumors and stuff. But I woke up, I believe, at about 520 The next morning. And when I checked, there were a few messages sent to me from friends, that they have taken the country's power in a coup. So, right at that moment, when I read the message, I have already made up my mind that I will do everything in my power to stop the military coup, and not to go back to the Dark Ages, you know. So, Oh, I didn't know what to really do right away. And there were rumors, you know, the internet was cut down, there was no internet connection, and the cell phones line were cut off as well. So it's, it's like absolute confirmation of the crew. That's exactly, you know, line one page one all the Nimmo military dictators Handbook, on your military crew. So that confirmed and and, you know, we went out on the streets, to look for any signs of protests to protest along with other people and so on. And, and, you know, close friends and colleagues started working together to plan a plot against the military dictatorship. And then and a few days later, we thought, you know, these are sort of Mandalay has taken to the streets and so on. And there was there was also a very, very strong rumor, or possibly a sidewall tag is used by the military council, that, you know, you must wait till the first 72 hours or over to protest against the military dictatorship, military coup. And, you know, I right away knew that made no sense that we must act right away. But unfortunately, the majority of the people sort of believed in that rumor that they must bear for 72 hours to protest against the military coup. So teams, you know, a bit slower the other very beginning. And when these slo mandali took to the streets instead of protesting that Like the entry point for majority of the people to come in and join the protests. So from I believe, therefore, we thought there were protests all over the country. I mean, the streets are filled streets are filled with people, you know. And, and, and thanks to the internet, we, we got internet connection back but much limited. But regardless, we knew what was happening all across the country all over the country and the protest movement, and also the call to take caught in the civil disobedience movement also was at the loudest, and a lot of civil servants, government employees, you know, stop working. And they started taking part in the CDO movement, and along with the CDM movement, that we, the international community understand CG movement as the whole political movement in the MAR against the military coup, but the local people of Nima our understanding of CDM is more specifically for the government employees who are, you know, refuse to work for the SEC, and we call them cdmos. So the CGM movement by the government employees and public protests by general public. Oh, you know, Mitt, bear for a to like, mid April, they were everyday, you know, the strongest movement that I have ever seen in my life, really, and what and what happened is that, you know, the military crack dog started to happen, and the inhumane acts by the military, and the very brutal crackdown, or the peaceful protesters. It was, it was so bad that, you know, a lot of people could not go out and protest in the streets anymore. As they get beaten to death, they get shot in the head, you know, there are more than enough evidence of people being shot, you know, in the face, at point blank range, and all those things. So, there is no opportunity, no space for peaceful protests anymore. You know, they come at night, you know, they raid your homes, destroy your properties meet up. It's and then and then and then, you know, they take protesters away at night. And a lot of them I wouldn't say majority, but a lot of them came back the next day in body bags. I mean, it's, it's, it's just a, you know, figure on speech, I'm saying they came back in boy bags, no, I mean, they didn't even put the dead bodies in the body bag, they came back, you know, are dead the next day. So, you know, majority of the youth, particularly chansey, the younger generation, you know, the the advantage here is that I am in my mid 40s. But for the Gen Z, the the generation, the digital generation, they have lived the lives through limited freedom, you know, from 2010, to 2020. War. This, this 10 years of time, with, you know, access to information. There was no censorship on the internet, there are a lot of things that they were learning that we are learning that we were learning, and then and we get exposed to Google Ideas. You know, I mean, I took part in 1988, General uprising, I took part in 2008, suffering, revolution, all those things. But those times when we were demanding, protesting for democracy, we had no idea of what democracy is, we, of course, learn about what democracy is in books, and in you know, on the internet, and all those things, but those are just written words of our, you know, this, this concept, this philosophy called democracy, we have never experienced it, you know, but Gen Z, or the younger generation, we had this limited democracy or whatever you call it, pseudo democracy. But they had it for, you know, 10 years 10 good years, and those who have Enjoy this much freedom, Li, they can go back. I mean, so Gen Z, let the movement and then put it on, you know, the next kind of stage. I mean, they're the very innovative ideas, you know, in protests, and you know, those memes that they do on the internet, and all those things. But then back to the main point, they came a time a turning point, because we were dying every day, we didn't have anything to fight back, you know, all we had was a backpack, and a thick metal pen in the backpack. So that, you know, when shot, the bullet were, you know, the bullet would be stored by this, this metal cooking pen in our backpack, so that we don't die on the spot. You know, those were the only things I want a border mosque, I have a construction helmet, and then I pick, you know, metal head in the backpack. It's just that people have died every day, and there was no escape from this brutal crackdown. So we started looking elsewhere. I mean, and a lot of us decided that, you know, the same manner of language must be used to make them understand, because the only language that we were using was violence. You know, while violent crackdown, I mean, totally inhumane, crap. No, it's not, I wouldn't even call it using violence, more terror, you know, putting terror in people's heart, so that they will come out the next day by, you know, deliberately killing individuals in public. It's like public assassinations, and all those things. So, you know, a lot of young people started looking elsewhere, and we tried to get in contact with some, you know, ethnic organizations for, you know, military trainings and stuff like that, because we realize that, you know, only when we fight back, this, you know, can end because if we don't fight back, if we, if we only use in peaceful protests, as the only mean, for the political, you know, problem that we have, it's not going to work it so I'm gonna work I mean, we need everyone working in, in, you know, in harmony, working hand in hand, like CDM CDM, was public protesters, and those who also choose to, to choose resistance. So I, along with other friends are went to an ethnic organizations control area, and instead of receiving, you know, basic military training, on how to handle explosives, how to handle, you know, firearms and stuff like that. And it's not just our group 10s of 1000s of people were seeking military training in the EU areas at the same time. So for my group, we we started off, as you know, our protest group, we did our own, you know, protests, public protests, are we organize and manage and, you know, did a lot of protests with quite a quite large number of followers and stuff, but then we decided to go to the EU area with our group came back instead of operating as a Eugenia work, Eg group and go read a group or, you know, underground oven guerrilla group. And, well, you know, the specific activities that we are involved in I I'm afraid I am not going to talk about them for the moment, but you know more about our political beliefs, and our, say, our group's experience, you know, in the area coming back, and you know, the challenges and difficulties that we are facing and stuff like that.
Host 19:43
This really does give a background and to where we landed today. And you mentioned Yuji, just even as you mentioned it I realized how much is still a mystery to me even what it stands for. I've heard it called underground group I've heard called urban guerrilla. So I'm wondering if you can take some time to describe more about these Eugene's just about the way that they were formed. I'm saying they because I'm presuming that there's multiple sales or activities or groups. What kind of structure organization or decision making or contact happens with them? Again, whatever is safe to share on that question, but can you share a bit about how, how it went from being a bunch of you, as well as a bunch of people just getting an assortment of military training the ethnic arms, to suddenly this thing we're hearing about called the uwg network? Can you provide the connective tissues of how that started to form? And what kind of structure and organization that
Lynn 20:50
Oh, and it's, it's quite tricky addressing this question, because originally, you know, when we are started experiencing brutal crackdown by the SEC, you know, a lot of us decided to go seek some, you know, explosive handling firearm, and, you know, Adrianna them and so, those trainings, we needed, and we went in hope of becoming forces contributing to federal democratic Nima you know, it's, it's, it's all for all, I mean, the majority of the people who went and received those, you know, basic military trainings, they want to contribute in building military free tyranny, free federal democratic Nima, our you know, with the, with the, with the principle of equality and equity for ethnic minorities, and religious minorities, as well. So this is, this is the concept that's driving us, you know, to become effector, trying to contribute to the overall vision of federal democratic Nima. So, we went there with the hope of becoming forces contributing to federal credit memo. And we went there with the hope that we will become members of either PDF or STF. pdf, people defense force, which is supposed to be the breaking ground for federal army, the future federal, and STF special task force. Here, my understanding is that those who join pgl are the people or the trainees that received more intense longer period military training, and the those who received like, three to two weeks, three days to 14 days long training, they come back with a hope of becoming special task force and you know, and UGC rpH, let initiative, but unfortunately, due to the trust issue, and due to our what, what to watch, you know, spies say, you know, the snitch, but due to snitches who leaked information back to the military console. So, there's there is a lot of distrust, you know, a lot of trust issues and these causes to be recognized as either STF or pgf, there is a lot of challenges still remaining. And also my understanding is is energy government, you know, is is trying to approach everything from the legal point of view, the legal standpoint. So certain violent activities by those who received shorter training and came back to the cities to, to edge against, you know, military console. But what I'm saying is that there is no clear command structure and a lot of us have been unable to combine back with the Edu g approved STF or PDF forces. talks are still under way for them to be recognized as you know, STF pgf as well. So here we came back with a hope of becoming St. But, you know, due to those complications, and due to, you know, certain reservation, by the people up, you know, above, we had to change the name, you know, from because we can no longer participate, you know, in public protests and so on everyone, we those, those of us who receive training and coming back to the cities had to go into hiding right away, and you know, when they are back in the cities, so, we move, you know, underground, I mean, we are not visible. So, you can call us either oven corridors or, you know, underground revolutionary forces in the in the cities and stuff.
Host 25:50
Sure, so, yeah, that helps to clarify, at the end, to ask for further clarification, it sounds from talking to you that the formation of uwg was not just organic, but almost accidental that an unintentional that you and others that we're going to get this training, we're getting it with the hope or expectation that you would then be enrolled in PDF or SDF for one of these groups that has a more direct connection with an uwg. But because of, for whatever reason, that not happening, and not really knowing where everyone fits, and, and people not being able to go out in the streets and be in hiding, because everyone who attended these trainings is now at risk. It sounds like this was not the uwg network and the uwg groups were not just an organic formation, but almost like an accidental formation, that characterization be correct.
Lynn 26:46
It is absolutely correct. Because, you know, I've never in my life have I thought of joining and I'm resistance, you know, I walked for an AR AR, I walk in the peace sector of the mall. I mean, it's a saying really, that's that's some, you know, unprecedented progress in the peace scenario with the ethnic minorities and economic organizations.
Host 27:25
So concerning the user groups and members and such, can you give any indication in terms of like, how many groups there? Are, these groups have different names? are they connected in any way? How many members are part of it? I understand these are probably impossible questions to answer. But I'm just trying to go somewhere with understanding the reach and the range of what this network is really difficult
Lynn 27:55
to, you know, give you an estimate of tools to help us received training and functioning as, you know, uwg groups in the oven setting, it's really difficult, but, you know, my best guess is in the 100, you know, in the hundreds of 1000s. You know, throughout all across the country. I believe, you know, in big cities, I Django and mentally alone, there are are 10s of 1000s of youth and older people like me, who have received training. And, you know, I mean, it's like, like you said, it's, it's totally accidental. I mean, I was I was talking about, you know, how I have never ever thought and seen myself as somebody that will take up taking part in the armed resistance against the military dictatorship. I was more a peaceful, you know, protester I, my priority is non violent, you know, and all those things because I was in the peace process of the mall. Never had my thought, Oh, you know, that this will happen. And I would be choosy this part. But hey, you know, you, you, you, you do what you do. I mean, there is this call for humanity, peace, you know, all those things. So, oh, yeah, man. I mean, we are. The peace process was, you know, picking up and there were there were some unprecedented agreements are you know, groundbreaking. agreements underway, and all those things, all of a sudden this has happened. And because there is no other means, you know, available, international community gravely concerned about, you know, the most situation, but they weren't they weren't doing anything, you know, anything concrete to help us apart from sanctions and, you know, issuing statements and so on. And and UN Security Council, the global system is unable to address, you know, this injustice are unfortunately. So we must find a way ourselves to overcome this military coup and the tyranny. That's hard. So back to the question of, you know, how many groups are there, and what's the approximate size of those Yuji nowalk, and so on. Now, unfortunately, there is there is no exact figures available, but my guess is in the hundreds or 1000s. And in terms of groups, there are many groups 10s of 1000s of groups, you know, you assemble the groups that claim to to be people defense force of certain area, and majority of them effect have no communication with SVG, and they're not a new g recognized PDF, they just call themselves PDF, they are more like as they are, they are also underground groups in those areas, you know, trying to fight the military council with whatever they have.
Host 31:48
So in that description, you touched upon a number of different elements there. And I just want to telegraph a bit to our listeners some of the themes that you brought up, because as a as a, as someone who's talking to you, I'm trying to figure out what direction to go. So I have to pick one of these three paths. Next, and I want to bookmark the other two to make sure we come back to them. You've talked about your personal transformation from a nonviolent peace activist into realizing that this was a necessary action to take, you've spoken about the formation and the structure of these different Yuji groups and people. And then related to that third point, you've also just now just got into the relationship between these groups and what the energy is trying to do. So that's a mouthful, and that's great, because that's what we're here for. And we have the time to do that. Let's go with the first one. First, we'll get to the second points. After that, I want to go back to what you were mentioning on a personal level, before we go back into the looking at the group structure and decision making and such and go back into you personally, and you mentioned how you were coming from a more nonviolent peace process, activism, and that this was really a change and a shock for you. And I know, for me, my own personal touches with violence in life is is would be ridiculous, I would have to go back to something in junior high school where kids were pushing each other or something I when I think about myself, and also, as you mentioned, I not only am I not had touches with with violence in my life, but I also very much have held a certain kind of non violent even pacifist attitude and come from a background of meditation and Buddhism. Even in my family blood. My grandfather was a conscientious objector in World War Two, which meant that even even a Jewish soldier going to Nazi Germany was refusing to carry a weapon in harmony. So this is definitely something that runs deep in me as well, as you mentioned, your background. So I'm wondering the internal process of what it was like to go from being someone who not only held nonviolent attitudes in your mind as as a value in ideal, but were actually involved in nonviolent activism and peace processes in your job in your field. So this was something that you were talking to talk and you were walking the walk. And so what was that personal transformation like to go from holding those kind of values and being involved in those kinds of activities, to really realizing that some kind of shift was necessary and then even after you realize the shift is necessary, then you actually have to do it. You actually have to learn things. You have to implement activities, you have to think in your mind about actions which will cause serious harm or even loss of life to another human. So what was that like for you to go through that transformation?
Lynn 34:55
Oh, it's it's absolutely hard. Or it's good to squint. It's quite difficult, but there is no other choice. I mean, like I said earlier, I, you know, I took part in 1988 General uprising against mullet, you know, another military dictatorship. And in 2007, you know, cell phone revolution, again, I took part in that protest against another dictatorship. And here comes another one again, our end, you know, through my personal experience of 1988 and uprising in 2007, several revolution I realized that, you know, unless you take up on and and fight against them, there is no, you know, escape from this military terror any me it took 26 years and 28 years, the previous military dictatorships, and I can't, I can't afford my kids to call go through that, you know, dark age, again. And, and, and, also, you know, the young generation or what, you know, we have experienced, somewhat limited region, and, you know, pseudo democracy, or whatever you call it guided democracy, they call it, but, you know, regardless, you know, instead of just learning written wards, defining what democracy, human rights, equality, you know, all those things are, we have experienced the excellence of them in their lives. And that, you know, that so there's, there's no turning back in the past, you know, democracy was in 1988, and 2007. And merging, you know, by reading, we learn about what he will kradic values, and human rights, and stuff like that are, but we are just written words, but in essence, we started experiencing practicing them in life for the past 10 years or so. So the for the younger generation, they know more alive, they only know this limited freedom and so on. But for me, you know, the moment military took the power in a coup, first of February, I, right away, I knew, you know, we are back in the dark age. And, and we must do something to stop it to escape from it. So I started taking protests, taking part in the protests, I led, in fact, you know, some to protest groups and so on. But then, due to the brutal crackdown, we had to think outside the box of, you know, peaceful protests and all those things we were, we were trying to persuade government employees to stop working for sec, and we will also launch a campaign against military businesses and so on. But these things didn't work. They're more increased, more intense crackdown, more brutal crackdowns, you know, started happening every day. So, we look as where, and, and, and, and, and, you know, when I was receiving that training, you know, I was, I was a bit hesitant of, oh, man, you know, is this, what my life is going to be and stuff, you know, those questions are asked myself, but I believe, you know, my determination to take part and to to contribute, in, you know, building federal democratic Nima and ending the military dictatorship is much, much stronger than my thoughts of, you know, what, what I held quite dearly, the values are held quite clearly to me, you know, peace, I am going to be involved in peace process back again, once this revolution, you know, it's over. I mean, when when the military dictatorship is ended, I will be begging the Peace Center that that's what you know, I have built my life for but before peace, you know, in order to acquire peace, I have decided that I must involve in you know, whatever means necessary to stop these these tyrants, you know, so maybe I'm struggling. I mean, my mom, I'm struggling with what to expect Was Hall I went through, I am also struggling internally to to, you know, oh, Paul, I have led my life previously. And Paul, I am leading my life now.
Host 40:17
Yeah, I can certainly understand and sympathize with that. And as you describe this process of, you're really describing, like a logical explanation for why you would run out of options of what you had been trying to do. And that this was the only remaining option to secure freedom for yourself in your family in your country. And as a tool that was to be used as limited as possible until you got to the other side. So I understand all of that, even with this logic of why this this break is justified and as needed, given the terror that's being faced, I imagine that they're still and emotional, and perhaps ethical, perhaps mental, even spiritual or religious component that even though this is what's accepted, logically, there's still something internally that struggles with the process and the transformation? And if so, how does that manifest and how, even as the logical mind is laid out, internally, how has that transformation then to adjust to that new logic?
Lynn 41:34
Well, it's quite difficult to express how this transformation is ongoing. I mean, I am in, you know, a religious person, but raised, born and raised as a Buddhist. So Buddhist principle, you know, are more like, guiding principles for my life anyway, although I'm not religious, I don't go to like, you know, temples and pagodas, and, you know, pray and stuff like that, I don't do that. But at the same time, you know, I am rather confused, you know, all religious teachings, and whole live, you know, or, this, this political system has, you know, restrictions imposed on us. So, for individual internal freedom, I believe Buddhism is good, but when it comes to a society, you know, fighting against some injustice and stuff like that, I don't think it works that way. So, I'm not quite sure whether I can put myself you know, in that religious aspect, and look at what, what, what, what I'm involved in right now. So it's, it's rather difficult to actually express that transformation. But you know, I don't know if I'm making sense, but I am looking at, you know, Arakan armies model you know, maybe started with like, 26 people or so, in one Jaisalmer, you know, in I don't remember the year or so. But it's quite inspiring story and for self determination. certain ethnic group, you know, it is it is like, the need to have an army for self determination, or at least to fight for it. And realizing the bombing, or, you know, I am called a Burman although I don't recognize myself, I don't believe myself as an authentic Burman or Bamar, I'm mixed. You know, as far as I do, I am Mon Karen Bamar, whatever. Anyway, what what I'm saying is that, um, I get inspired by our Arakan Army's story and General Tun Myint Man's story, that for self determination for certain ethnic group, there must be an organization you know, protecting the rights of their citizens and stuff. So the Bamar people, you know, never had an army apart from army. So, and this army that we have, it's not all Bamar people. It's just, you know, an army of MAH. They're working only working for him. I mean, they're the The ultimate objective responsibility of an army in a country is to protect its citizens. But this is the total opposite, they are a mechanism that, you know, torture kill the citizen, not not that not really protecting them. So in order to stop them from what they're doing, there must be an army or an organization or groups that fire them. So that, you know, they will, they will be able to do that anymore. So with that belief, the mind determination that we must be stopped. And my personal values for you know, appreciating and loving peace and working for it, it can't wait till this is over. And then we will be back on a path of peace with the with our ethnic, you know, brothers and sisters.
Host 46:05
Yeah, thanks for that, I want to move to the second of the three points that I bookmarked in your your longer talk a few minutes ago, and that was looking at the organizational structure of these Eugene's. And where we left off, you had informed us about how their formation was not just organic, it was also accidental, you had estimated wild estimates because no one really knows the hundreds of 1000s of individual people across the country and 10s of 1000s of actual groups. The next logical question in that is inquiring about how is the structure and the organization the communication, the decision making process? And again, again, I know this is something that is very impossible to give exact answers. But can you paint some kind of rough picture of how how one joins a group, how the who one interacts with how the different groups are in touch with each other? how decisions are actually made and communicated and something with the structure and organization activities of these diverse groups and
Lynn 47:08
people? Well, to answer this question, we should understand how these different groups came about, you know, there are these, there are uwg groups that are formed within a locality, for example, say, you know, you live in Ghana, you're doing Kumbaya Township. And in your block, there are friends, you know, your your, your, your high school friends, and so on, that you grew up together with, there is quite a strong level of trust among, you know, these locality groups. So they're like, hey, look, you know, the peaceful protests aren't working, and we must find, you know, another solution outside, you know, this, this scenario. And, and, and these groups, you know, gather together and went to, I think, um, organizations that came back as a group, and they were called, perhaps, they were called the group ABC, you know, it's perhaps 20 people only. And then they are specializing in their locality area, we operate in those areas, where that's one, you know, example of how groups and around groups came about. And another example is that say, you go to the major gathering happening, sports, like lead, you know, sanjose suli, those those, you know, public protest areas, and you started making, choosing, you know, like, whom you will follow there are people giving political speeches against military dictatorship and so on. And when you kind of like, you know, somebody that's that's providing a political speech against military dictatorship you kind of follow him or her and that that is also how you know, unique groups are formed and when that leader of a small you know, group with a small gallery decide to receive military training in EU areas, we go along with him or her as a group, you know, they will they will say, if that group, you know, our our F A, or whatever name, you know, they can think of, and there are also professionals, you know, and, you know, professional friends working in the same professional fields, maybe in the same office, maybe in the same organization, maybe in what what is what what, what is it called philanthropist network, you know, so these networks, and also the activist network, they also, you know, go to EU areas and teabaggers different groups, so, There are 10s of 1000s of uj groups all across the MA. But when it comes to big cities, there are people trying to facilitate as coordinators among these groups. And I believe you were, you may have noticed a statement issued by, you know, nine underground groups in Yang gold. And there is another statement issued by 11 groups, you know, in the angle, and there are also statements issued by Collette collection of you know, different nudie groups in manly and other areas as well. So, due to those trying to facilitate among these groups, as coordinators, the cooperation and cooperation among these groups, have you studied to God become, you know, stronger, and I believe in maybe, you know, in about four weeks time, the the cooperative efforts and collaboration among these uwg groups, where we are strengthened, and I believe majority of the oven gorila networks will be having some coordinated efforts
Host 51:28
very soon, and in terms of how actions are carried out, what has been the decision making process and these different groups to decide what to do and how to do it, how is there is there a leader, is it democratic, is there a council How are different actions decided upon?
Lynn 51:46
Well, oh, I am going to be quite careful answering this question. So, I need a moment to think. I mean, there there is certainly collaboration among these groups, and there is some informal form of comments structure among these groups as well. For example, for for the group that is placed, I am considered the leading member of our group, and, and majority of the activities that we plan are more strategically and tactically doled out by, you know, a group of people, including me, and I believe that's how, you know, these, these groups are making decisions. And when it comes to collaboration with other groups, we have group chats, and, you know, augustina, meetup and so on. And in these meetings, we negotiate, you know, what our objectives and so on are, and when we have consensus, we kind of assign, you know, different responsibilities to different groups. And then, and then, and that's, that's all. So, when we change position among groups, it's more consensus based. But within individual groups, it's more the leading member, the leader, or, you know, like management comedy within that group that actually makes decisions.
Host 53:43
Right, so I want to move on to the third and final point of the longer talk that you had before come back to and put a bow on it. And that was looking at the relationship between this vast underground grid network, and some of the more formal leadership of energy or emoji or something like that. And you've already referenced a little how there is an attempt to be made of trying to connect some of the ground activities with a wider with the top leadership, you could say, of people who are in who are the democratically elected governments that are having their own vision and objectives. And I can only begin to imagine the difficulty of that, because you're talking about 10s of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s of people, groups that are spread out everywhere, and a government that is rightful government that is really in enormous disarray in terms of who's laughed and how they're operating and how communication can happen, what their resources are. And so looking at this connection that they have to make, so this communication between the top and the bottom between the people on the ground and the people that have the greater overview, I can't even be Can you imagine how that can take place? Given the the chaos and the so much activity happening in so many different places? And, you know, where everyone is at the time? So what are your thoughts about why, first of all, why it would be important to have this kind of communication and collaboration between those that are on the ground doing things? And those the top making the bigger decisions? Why would it be important to have greater collaboration communication between those? And how can that be achieved, given the state that we're all in right now?
Lynn 55:33
Well, yes, are, that's also, you know, another heart question. But my understanding is that our energy is trying, you know, real hard in winning the hearts of these newgy groups, and also trying to come up with a certain form of, like, central command structure, and I think it's gonna happen quite soon. And and when it when it happens, like Like I said, earlier, annuity is trying to, you know, explore options in recognizing, you know, these underground groups and so on. So, my understanding is, is that M od within energy has been providing, you know, certain guidelines and principles, like, you know, standard operation procedures and stuff like that, and I believe these documents will be shared internally, you know, among uwg groups, and, and a lot of beauty groups will be using them as guidelines. And my also my understanding is that, you know, when you are say, a target team, you know, a location or something, you must make sure, you know, certain protocols, you know, obeyed and observed. So, I am sorry, I am not at liberty to to discuss, you know, the details, but what I'm saying is that, there is some informal form of communication between energy, and these, Eugenia walks, when they are also trying to come up with a solution so that these 2g networks are this disciplined, and, and, you know, and whatnot, and intentionally, you know, civilians and stuff like that. So, back, I like to refer back to the statement issued by nine uj groups, you know, earlier, that they issue a statement stating that, these, you know, this, these, these uwg groups have never ever targeted public spaces, like schools and hospitals and so on. And that's in the future, as well. We will not be targeting, you know, schools and hospitals and religious buildings, unlike sec. So that's, that's like, you know, reading the occasional statement issue by emoji. The uwg groups are using them as like guidelines. And what's award? Well, guidelines. So, you know, they follow those guidelines and head along with those guidelines. And I mean, as you know, conclusion to this question, there is an informal form of communication between energies, your pH, and, and Yuji groups. And I think it's going to be formalized, you know, somewhat
Host 59:10
soon. Yeah. So that leads right into my next question, we talked about standard operating procedures, he talked about protocols. Another term I've heard is code of conduct. And I'm wondering if there has been any formal or informal Code of Conduct that's been laid out by the higher authorities in the land by that, of course, I don't mean the time but I mean, people in the zoo and mld, or doctors offices office, if there has been any kind of Code of Conduct that's been laid down. And if there's been a response, either, again, either formal or informal among the different groups, again, we're talking about 10s of 1000s of groups, so it's hard to know exactly what they're all doing. But exactly where a code of conduct fits in the relationship between those at the top trying to manage all this Those many, many groups that are doing things at ground level
Lynn 1:00:04
Well, our energy has actually issued you know, code of conduct, and the balls, you know, the PDF members are supposed to take and all those things, and they are available online and on you know, and UGC page and an M od page as well, I believe. So, those, in fact, majority of the G groups are using those as the guidelines, since they are available on NIH, you know, so, my understanding is that a lot of groups have downloaded those, you know, documents and make their members reach them, and then also check their understanding of, you know, those rules and regulations and stuff. So, I am quite positive about you know, and as to blushing perhaps in informal form of, you know, chain of command, and in the near future, I think it will happen. And I think majority of the uwg group, groups were listen to energies instructions.
Host 1:01:21
Right. So, as these uwg, groups started to form, the Eugene network started to take shape. And the whole shape of the protest movement started to change from being more protesting in the streets, CVM nonviolent, encouraging defections and military and started to take this turn to looking at learning violent techniques and, and how, how and where, and when to use them. We've talked a bit about your mindset and the mindset of people that are in those groups who have decided to undertake military training, and then come back and join the group and look at operations. I'm curious about the mindset of those people who have not joined. In other words, the general more populous people that the bystanders, the people that are resisting the coup, pretty much everyone, of course, is resisting attempted military coup, very, very few people support it. But for those people that have not taken part, or joined in anything that you're doing, and are on the sidelines of it, what generally do you think the response has been to what has started to take shape?
Lynn 1:02:33
Well, this, this, you know, coup, has been quite pervasive, you know, there's a lot of divide among the citizens of the more, you know, those who take power to who to do not take part, those who support those who do to support those who are sitting on the fence and stuff like that. So there's a lot of harsh criticism, back and forth, unfortunately, but, you know, my understanding is that majority of the country's population are in support of the CG movement, as far as I'm resistance, and, and, you know, whatever initiatives and activities that you're involved in, against the military, you know, tyranny. Some, it's, it's, it's quite unfair to criticize them, because, you know, some, some choose to stay silent, but we are silently supporting by means of raising funds or contributing to the cause, and so on. And so they need to remain, you know, where they are. And by remaining where they are, they can contribute more. But what I'm talking about is those, you know, government employees that have now joined the CDL movement, and they can all stay in their office. But these people, some of them have proven to be proven to be quite valuable to the cause, because they've been leaking, you know, the inside information of sec, to contribute to the cause, and so on. So let me for those who have no interest, you know, in the politics of democracy, it's a shame really, I mean, if more people would join the CDM movement, you know, the momentum and the, the volume itself will carry real fall. So, yeah, there are those who support as you see, and then there are those who do not support sec. But wouldn't take part in the CG movement due to fear, and those who are quiet, but you know, they are doing a lot, you know, behind the scenes.
Host 1:05:14
Let me follow that up with another question. So in looking at the uwg activities and how they're carrying out, I know there has been some criticism of what they're doing by those outside the country, I think it's very important to note that some of the majority of the criticism is coming from people that are outside the contrary, at least from what I've seen, and I want to get to that in my next question. So just hold off for a moment on that. But keep that in mind. My question right now, in terms of following up and clarifying are those that are in the country? And I know this is somewhat of a challenging question, because there's so much trolling and fakery and everything online of like military sympathizers, or even trolls that are that are attacking uwg activity, either real or imagined or exaggerated, or whatever. But they're, they're really doing it to try to create a wedge or a break in the people. And so that kind of credit that kind of internal criticism, internal meaning Insight, Myanmar, that kind of internal criticism of using networks and activities, isn't, isn't real. It's not coming from genuine people that are resisting the cool, but concerned about what the eg is doing. So my question is, are you aware of those that are in the country that perhaps are still advocating a very strict nonviolent approach, and that are on the same side as you and Yuji in terms of objectives, but have very grave concerns about the activities being taken and
Lynn 1:07:00
those tools and criticism that you see online, about the activities where you oops, I believe that's more sidewalk tactic by the SEC, they have a sidewalk department, and they are, you know, working around the clock, to undermine, and to mock the activities of new g groups, as well as the activities of venue G and so on. And we don't take them seriously. Because, you know, we we used to be the p3 protesters, and the college peaceful protesters are our friends, we know them, we walk with them, and, and they have hardly anything against us. It's only unfortunate that we cannot join the peaceful protests anymore, because we have created, you know, a profile, you know, quite attractive for the SEC, they want us. So we will stay in hiding. We cannot join the public protests anymore. But those who are still, you know, involving and taking part in public protests, those flash flash protests. Come on the our friends, I mean, we work together. So there was hardly any, any any negative, you know, criticism or whatsoever from these peaceful protesters, and I believe the online tools and memes and criticism are actually created by sec sidewall department.
Host 1:08:46
Right. So that's what that's what I want to get out actually, is that exactly that, personally, I know, people that are started out being very strong, nonviolent activists, I'm talking about people that are in Myanmar felt that a strict adherence to non violence at all levels was the only thing that was going to win. And I don't know anyone who still believes that in more to clarify, the people that I'm referencing, they are themselves personally, many of them still just as pacifist and non harm and non violent on a personal level that they've always been. But they don't hold general non violent views that this is some This is a winning strategy. This is something that everyone needs to involve with. So what you're describing fits very much into that you're describing people who have chosen not to take part in any kind of violent response that are strictly doing non violence. That is their personal choice. And yet, they're not condemning or criticizing those that are doing the violence. So they have personally chosen a certain path but they are not advocating that path on the part of the entire nation, which is something that I did see more in first year. To when that when people were sorted out. So are you finding internally in the movement, that even among those people that are personally choosing not to engage in violence in any way? Are there people that are still advocating a general nonviolent strategy for everyone that that are still in the country?
Lynn 1:10:19
Well, are you know that there is this this, you know, concept that in order for this movement to prevail, you know, I'm resistance and Governability and Bob bid protests, all those three things must, you know, work together along with international support. So realizing that there are there are, you know, key opinion leaders among the movement, and these kayo ELLs have influenced, you know, the thinking of the CGM mas. And, you know, so there are those who go to the direction of M resistance, to contribute to the same objective and cause and there are those who pick the part of public protest, nonviolent means. And they are, you know, those nonviolent protesters, and those who believe in an resistance is the solution, you know, the only means left, they are working together, and that what they're doing is and of inequality, so, peaceful projects is still you know, are supporting government employees, cdmos. And, you know, hiding them providing accommodations, and also leading the campaign of, you know, campaign against military businesses and so on, let's say ongoing, and also no paying tax, you know, not being for for your electric, electric bill, and all those things, you know, that's happening. It's it, I believe, it comes from the same political thinking that I'm resistance and of inequality, public protests, public masses, and international support, you know, those four channels to reach towards the federal democratic NEMA freedom or freedom or from our military dictatorship. So I do not think they are insulated from each other, I think they are different tenos, leading to the same goal of the the big of the mall.
Host 1:12:49
Thank you for that, that really clarifies that. And now I want to move to the view outside the country reference that there has been some pretty direct and overt criticism about the UGC network in some of their activities. I've seen this in the form of articles in newspapers and academic journals, often by foreigners that are concerned that this shift in violence is going to lead into a never ending spiral of terror campaigns of uncontrolled groups and actors being able to act wildly and do what they want, that this is going to turn into another kind of Syria. There. That's always been concerning to me, because those whether it's foreign enemies, who are outside the country, those people that are outside are doing so from a place of privilege and safety and comfort, where they are not going to be impacted by what they say and what they believe. Whereas those in country have very real effects for living through it. What, what you've thought of those criticisms of any kind of violent response and anything that the uwg groups are doing?
Lynn 1:14:03
Well, I mean, I appreciate you know, the concern for me more and stuff like that, and, you know, you use the word uncontrolled, you know, duty groups and stuff like that. But that's, that's going to be changed soon. I believe. That's, that's one answer. And again, you know, international community and those outside MMA, you know, having having a perspective and being passive, which I appreciate, I appreciate it, but at the same time, what other alternatives do they suggest? We have, you know, and, and also, you know, international community has been kind of pressuring energy as well as you know, educators now walk in demand for non violent, you know, protests against military dictatorship, but do they realize how many lives have been, you know, modeled by the SEC? Do they realize how many prisoners, you know, these peaceful protesters are in prison? Do they realize how many percentage of them go killed overnight and came back the next day as a dead body? Ah. So, it I mean, we, the terror is real. There's, you know, all these things that I'm talking about are not made up, it's a reality, it's what we are facing in the streets every day. And do we keep going in that direction? That I mean, if we keep going in that direction, there will be a lot of death toll, there will be more than, you know, more people than what prisons can accommodate. And, and then that the SEC has has no regret, no remorse for, you know, whatever they are doing. And we don't see any solution. I mean, any any objectives mean accomplished by peaceful protests alone, we realize we know that they are needed. And there will be peaceful protests every day in the mall. But at the same time, you know, look at South Africa, for example. I mean, Syria and Nima are two totally different countries. And the context was, history was nature was geographical, you know, location wise. It's very different. So I do not think comparing the MMA with Syria is fair, I do not think NEMA is not serious. So I'm going to be another Syria. I mean, of course, we will be facing a lot of problems once this revolution, you know, has achieved its objective. And once we have thrown out the military dictators, from the political scenario nermark, we will face a lot of problems, for sure. But I am very confident that we can all come, you know, we can overcome it, despite the, you know, big challenges.
Host 1:17:36
Right, so how would you respond for some of those that are looking at the situation from outside and are concerned that once the other side starts to respond with violence, that that just sends the whole country and the people into a never ending cycle, where it could go on for months and years and even longer have of retribution and of overextension, and of going outside the lines and everything else and just involve more and more innocence. This has been a view that's been put forward by some writers and academics, academics and journalists out there, I'm sure you've seen some of their arguments and articles. What's your feeling and defense of why this is needed at this time, in spite of these risks?
Lynn 1:18:33
Well, you know, changing a country and freeing it, from military, you know, tyranny that will be caused, you know, it's going to be costly. And we know that it says that we have no other options left. As any country offered, you know, to protect the citizens of the mall, who were not and who had nothing. Who were, you know, peacefully protesting those those there was none. So, we must free ourselves. And that's, you know, that's that's a reality. I mean, despite my bitterness against, you know, me, the global system, you know, an evil un. I mean, if we had a different alternative that's going to be this costly, so going to be this challenging, we would have been he clearly embrace it. There's none. There's no this is the only part that is left. I mean, look at our country's history, I mean, 1958 1962 1988 2007. And no, it's still fair. And, you know, the big, you know, leading countries in the global community, they preach the sermon of democracy, protecting human rights, you know, equality and equity, and all those themes. And these greetings have reached to us, we hold those values in our hearts. And when these very values, the core of human existence gets shaken by a handful of, you know, tyrants and old pressing, you know, over 15 million population, there's nothing the wall can do, except issue statements, and, you know, express their grave concern, and, and, you know, and imposing sanctions. But my understanding is that wealth, and comfort is relative, you know, so if you are the absolute authority area, in a country, you are related wealth, is gonna be much greater than the rest of the population. So, you know, raising millions of offshore, million dollars, millions of dollars in their offshore accounts, were not a threat, you know, the lifestyle, the kingly lifestyle, that they have it when all fed, you know, at all, I mean, we get taken, like, you know, a couple of millions dollars in the foreign bank account, what, what, you know, their social status, within their own country has not changed, they're still the richest, they're still, you know, the people with the most money. And this, this imposing sanctions alone, we're not change, we're not change them. So, the change, as, as we feel as if the international community has decided, as the people remark, you know, they have preached their sermons, and when we are fighting for these, these values that they have preached, they have decided us, you know, there is nothing that they can really do. I mean, so, it's a shame. And, and, and, and, and, again, you know, if the agenda is near community, and the people all sides are talking about dialogue, you know, getting a solution of this political problem, by means of dialogue, we love dialogue. But on what grounds? Do we have the dialogue with the SEC, do we talk about democracy? Do we talk about federal, you know, Union, do we talk about equality? Do we talk about granting human rights to all people you know, on the MMA, what do we talk about, do we talk about, you know, separating this power with them back again, what do we talk about? So, I mean, if these advice and suggestions are provided, but please think, you know, all the local context as well, I mean, what what do we talk about what, you know, do you Well, not new particular app, sorry, but, you know, do people think sec wants to talk do people think they want to negotiate? So, you know, we can find the solution to all problems externally, we must find it if it is not possible, then we will find it internally and due to the constraints and challenges are, you know, we have to choose fighting as the all the only option left, you know, so, my response to those criticism is that please know a bit more about Mr. nangia, understand the context and you know, largely understand the difficulty in terms of that, that we are facing every day, you know, this, this uncertainty, and all those things. So in order for us to break free from it, we must add, because no worry, the global community may as much as they want to help, they are unable to help due to the global political system, it's a shame, really, it's a shame.
Host 1:25:37
Right, so there's this feeling of being abandoned by many of those more powerful countries that are speaking and promoting these ideals in their own society. And as a general better way for people to live in the world. And after being abandoned, and people in Myanmar left to their own devices are really quite isolated, and on their own, with their backs against the wall. Starting out with objectively anyone can say, the first couple months and real universal commitment to non violence at every level and wanting to find other solutions. And as you mentioned, having people shot in the streets in broad daylight, people doing nothing, monks, doctors, having people disappear, night coming back, not even in body bags, but broken bodies. And then people starting to respond in another way, realizing that they really are left, left to themselves, but no one's coming. They are on their own, and then starting to look at actions to counter actions that can take as you reference, this is not the only thing being done. This is one of several different channels of this happening, you know, protesting business and account funds of the military and CDM, and so many other things that you reference, this is one of many of those channels that are coming. And that I imagine, it must feel pretty uncomfortable to then get the criticism from some of those that are living in safety and living in comfort, that these kinds of counteraction should not be taken to feel some type of judgment or some type of characterization, that that this type of defensive oneself for or have limited countermeasures, backed by some groups, that by some of those same actors that are for months are refusing to engage in any way beyond expressing great concerns are now engaging by offering some types of criticisms or judgment of those that are looking to a situation that those of us that are outside the country can barely even imagine.
Lynn 1:27:53
Exactly, exactly. That's exactly what I wanted to say.
Host 1:27:59
Right. And I think some kind of unfairness that there's a characterization of a violent people or, you know, tipping into violence, because as you've referenced, and so many people that I've spoken to, no one is, I don't want to say no one because I don't want to say blanket statements. But I think there are many people that are now engaged in types of things that you're doing that did not come from this background, did not want to do it do not like doing it, do not enjoy it, but are falling into that because they feel like there's no option left. So to characterize them as falling into violence or being a violent person, or violent people, or uncontrolled violent groups, I think this is kind of missing the nuance. Actually, it's not even really so much of a nuance, it's missing a detail that staring right in front of you, if you just take the time to have a conversation, that what else can they do? What would you do to people listening that if you found yourself in this kind of situation? How would you respond? And you know, I think from the kind of conversations I've had, I think that many of the answers that you would get in terms of how someone would respond to it are ways that Burmese people have responded to in February and March and April and other months that you have, I don't think there are too many options on the table for response that haven't already been tried. And so what else is left and, you know, to be mischaracterizing that as, as something uncontrolled, or people that are just falling into a violent mindset, I think misses that detail of how people are in fact coming into this
Lynn 1:29:41
is all me we do not have the luxury of nonviolent means anymore. I consider that a luxury and we are given no other option anymore or We have, I mean, like you said, like, like I said earlier, we were never built, you know, we never we were never built for this, you know, responsibility or, you know, mindset bomb these people are in essence very Pacific people, you know, due to thanks to Buddhist teachings and stuff, I mean even non Buddhists, you know non religious people still consider Buddhist philosophy as the guiding principle for life. So, you know, at heart, now, we are we are quite peaceful people, but the reality has, you know, has that has us looking in the other direction? No, because we are ruled on our left with any other options anymore. It's a luxury book, The novel, and you know, peaceful protest is a luxury, the moment I go out, you know, I might get short, I might get tortured, I might come back dead the next morning. Do I do I run abroad? You know, do I take refuge in a refugee camp? No, this is my country, it's my cause, I must, you know, involve in this cause. It's, it's, it's, it's about, you know, the next generation, it's about humanity. You know, it's, it's about our dignity as a people as well. So, yeah, I mean, we will do whatever it takes. And that's, you know, the only option left. So we need to free this country in our country, and we need to free the people from the military tyranny, we need to we need a progressive society, really a progressive minded country. And in order for these things to happen, the military dictatorship, you know, must be stopped. Otherwise, there is no future as a society, you know, we want our country to be a good country. And that's the only thing driving us.
Host 1:32:33
So just now, as you reference that you want your country to become a progressive society. And you mentioned before, that would include having equal rights and protections to all peoples. And another of the concerns I've heard about some of the growing violent reactions and operations by some of the uwg groups in PDF and such is that this then becomes a barrier to that kind of society that so many people want to live in that kind of progressive, free, fair, protective society where, where people, people's rights are protected, and they can live out their lives. And a concern that has some of these violent responses start that that will start to copy or mimic what Thomas has done. And that will come it will be might be destroyed or defeated, but at what cost and what society is going to be rebuilt. And so how do you make sure how did your people make sure that as you're using this tool, perhaps this necessary tool to fulfill this function, that the the operation of this tool, I'm almost thinking of like the ring from Lord of the Rings, you know, this thing that that corrupts you, when you have it and wear it? How do you make sure, not just you, but in a wider sense society, that this dangerous tool that you're using that could be utilized for your benefit? Does it then become a barrier for the kind of society that you want to build in the first place?
Lynn 1:34:04
It could, it could become a barrier to you know, the society that we aspire. Yeah, maybe. Like I said earlier, we are going to face a lot of problems. Once you know, this military dictatorship is over. We will have to build the country from the scratch I believe, you know, and and disintegration. You know, it can happen as well. I mean, look, nothing is worse than, you know, this military dictatorship. So we will face it, it's, I think it's, it's, we we've been like, you know, leading to that direction for quite some time. Now. That we're on our, you know, filled attempts of really coming together, we were put together and we need to come together and there will be a time After, you know, we have topple this military dictatorship, there will be a ton, we will all come together, well, if not all majority will come together. And I think, you know, it's a version that we should perhaps, you know, start thinking about, I think it's gonna happen, we will come together, I mean, we will put together, but the country's history will change. And this is the turning point.
Host 1:35:29
We've been talking more in a general sense of how the uwg was formed and how they operate. I'm wondering if it might be possible to get a little more specific, and I know, this is a sensitive topic to approach and so when I talked about specific, it probably wouldn't be appropriate to talk about specific operations, you know, place and and what happened and how it happened and such, but is there any way to get a little more specific to give to fill in the gaps and listeners minds of the kinds of things that Yuji groups have done are trying to do are we've talked about the things that are out of bounds, what about the things that are in bounds or if you're able to to reference in more general ways, types of things that you or others have have carried out, however, you are able to answer the question in a safe and informative way.
Lynn 1:36:21
Right, I am going to be quite general about it. And I think what uwg groups are doing or activities that they are involved in are, you know, targeted at ungovernability you know, that SEC has no control of the country and, you know, demoralizing University forces, so that say, you know, new teeny within Dumbledore, you know, can happen. And I on, you know, my personal interpretation of the scenario is that Nutini has happened, and those, you know, army officers who take part in the CGM movements, or they have actually taken part in the mutiny, it's, it's not new to me, but you know, they take refuge in the epic, controlled areas, because they, you know, do not support what is happening, they know that it's wrong. So usually groups are trying to create an Governability and at the same time, you know, the moral the moral you know, sec poses soldiers and police and with the hope that Edu G's grip on, you know, power, as well as carbon neutrality, what increase and as you see the end and new G's forces save PDF, and hopefully the, you know, Federal Army PDF with ethnic organizations, armies, you know, When, when, if and when a federal army can be formed with those those factors, hopefully, they can, you know, they can expand the territory from EU control area into mainland your Ma and then, you know, niugini more CDM mas from our, you know, sec forces and police are more and more people working for energy rather than sec. And by, you know, having those funds in full functions soon. Or, you know, there will be a time when and UT can control majority of the country. That's that hope and along with you know, that hope we have function as uj groups. So, what are we doing, we are taking part in creating ungovernability. How do we do that? We are sort of like discourage you know, what, from the words level, you know, the there can be new administration by as a as a see. And there is a parallel structure which is called people's administration offices and They are also functioning underground for the moment. And hopefully the momentum will pick up. And that's more administrative purposes served by people's administrative officers rather than essays is what administrators.
Host 1:40:19
We spoke to someone a couple of months ago, who was on special task force on this podcast. And he referenced this thing you're mentioning about the word control. And he said, quite simply, whoever controls the ward is going to win. That's what it comes down to. And, and that was where a lot of his attention and his group's attention was focused on. That was a couple months ago. So can you clarify where we're at in terms of board control?
Lynn 1:40:46
I think it's more, you know, in the oven setting, that what administration's important, it's like, you know, the very first ground of, you know, country's administration. So it is, you know, in the Elven setting it is it is understood that the administration of wards are going to be quite important, you know, so, in the oven session, there is no, there is no administration water, there is no successful administration, either by SSU, I knew g nujs. You know, people administration members are in hiding. And some of them have been like, detained, some of them killed. So, they have like, gone deep, you know, undercover, and there is no hobby, any functions that they are serving right now. And save with SEC is newly appointed, what administrators, you know, there is the water and functioning. So, you know, like the special envoy to them all by United Nations stated in one of our our statements, attempted coup. So, so far, it's still an attempted coup. It's not it's not been successful.
Host 1:42:18
That's right. And that is something I also heard and language I'm careful to use it is an attempted coup was initiated. This is an ungovernable country, as you've talked about, and there are different ways to work to make it ungovernable, your method being one also CBM and freezing funds and other kinds of things, sabotage of different functions and departments. So this continues to make this attempted because there's not control and as you mentioned, there's not control on either sides. With that in mind, and looking at your involvement, your chosen path with the Yuji mentioned how it came about organically and accidental, what do you think the future of it is? Where are we at at this moment, where all these groups are active and functioning? Where do you think it's leading towards what can we expect to see with uJs?
Lynn 1:43:11
Well, I am also very concerned about what the future holds for the uwg groups and so on. So, I am trying to connect up groups and energy so that there is a common structure and the so that there are, you know, codes of conducts you know, do's and don'ts and and and you know, ethics and so on. So, I believe you know that these Yuji groups need to be guided and instructed there should be a you know, a command structure that addresses that issue. And hopefully it will happen and, you know, based on my interaction with other uj groups, majority of them have the same mindset that we must walk along with energy our, so, cooperation will happen and I believe integration will happen as well and these uwg groups will be at least you know, recognized by energy and there will be certain you know, guidelines provided for any uwg specific, you know, groups and Agron groups.
Host 1:44:41
Right. So, you reference being in your 40s and being around much generations in their 20s. You also reference having lived through 2008 and 88 is a previous touchstone markers of Burmese history and recent history in terms of The protest movement, what has it been like for you to see the way that this young generation has responded? And have you? as their response been different from the previous two times? You've seen this flare up?
Lynn 1:45:14
Yes. I mean, thanks to the internet, you know, thanks to our access to information, the younger generation learn about what's happening around the world, you know, the protests in Hong Kong, you know, milty. Alliance, and, and they have been quite innovative in coming up with, you know, very, very new ideas in protesting and ltn against the military dictatorship. And I believe, I mean, based on my personal experience, you know, old 1988, General uprising, for democracy, and then in 2007, suffered revolution. This is a much more intense, you know, all wrong all around our protest against a military dictatorship, unprecedented in our country's history, in terms of volume, size, you know, and, and, and, and, and reaching out the whole country, and I've been trying to learn, you know, because I was, I think I was a team in 1988, it was my first, you know, protests against the ruling government at the time. But the themes are very different now. Because like I said, earlier, in Ada in 2007, you know, democracy was imagined, we didn't know what it would it was really, but you know, the younger generation, having lived through 10 or so years of limited freedom, access to information, uncensored access to information, and, you know, interaction with a global community, much more increased interaction with the global community have provided us with a lot of information, very valuable. And also, you know, we become an ambitious society, we want to be a progressive society. And these, you know, values have realizing them and enjoy, you know, someone's limited rights and stuff has led us, you know, to come up quite strongly against a military dictatorship. So, yes, by buying by nature, by size, by intensity, it's quite different from the previous two occasions that I, I was involved in as a protester, as an activist, this war is much more intense. And I think, I think it's at this time, it's the end game, that this is the moment that we're deciding our country's future.
Host 1:48:20
Thank you for that. Those are really powerful words. And I think we've taken up enough of your time, I'm sure you have so much you're doing with all of this work, and really are grateful for you making the time to share with us this is the first time we've been able to have an episode really trying to understand what the user groups are doing and how they were formed, the reasoning for their actions. And I think this has gone a long way in explaining With that in mind, is there any thing else you'd like to talk about in terms of the GS that we haven't touched on in this interview that we would like to make sure that our listener base understands?
Lynn 1:48:59
Well, our I have not much more to say, I like to thank you for this opportunity. And hopefully, I will present you know, the duty never walks in the oven setting in a pro con man. But I mean, again, I also like to thank you for helping me process, you know, what I'm going through, because I have actually, I have not talked about, you know, the experience and what I've been going through. So you have helped me clear some of you know, the thinking that I have, and thank you, thank you for that. And, in conclusion, I'd like to state that we Burmese people, no more people have, you know, no longer the luxury of peaceful protests and nonviolent means anymore. Although we are using non violent means and peaceful protests as one of the tenets leading to a free more and equal more are and you know, and we are peace loving people, but in order for edge of peace, you know, the reappears to happen, the evil forces must be stopped, we must be stripped of their power, so that we can build peace, so that we can build a progressive society in a progressive country. And we, we, we want to be a member of the global community with dignity a dignified member of global community, in order to achieve what we aspire or vision, we need to get rid of the military to teeters. And there is, as our resources are, you know, not much there is there is no other options left anymore. And that's the reason why a lot of, you know, younger generation as well as people my age, and even, you know, when I was in the ethnic organizations training camp, there was a 65 year old gentlemen, you know, receiving training. So, all generations, well, majority, of course, are Gen Z. A lot of them have joined the BDF and waiting for the call. And a lot of us came back to the, you know, respective cities and also contributing to the cause, and waiting for the call as well. And thank you, thank you again.
Host 1:52:54
One of the most tragic aspects of the current crisis in Myanmar, is how isolated Burmese protesters feel. And in fact, our this has been compounded by bank closures, and as a result, ordinary wire transfers are not possible. Thankfully, through a trusted local network, we're able to ensure that all donations successfully reach their intended target. So if you found yourself moved by today's discussion and want to do what you can to help, please consider giving to our fund, which is 100% directed towards supporting the movement. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. every cent goes immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. Donations go to support such causes as a civil disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. 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