Transcript: Episode #46: Going Rogue: A Doctor on the Front Lines
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Coco, which appeared on April 14, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:17
I'm really excited to bring you the upcoming interview with a very special guest. You'll hear him discussing all the great and courageous work that he's currently engaged him. And if you feel inspired to help him continue these efforts, please consider making a donation earmarked for his projects. Or feel free to give a general donation that will support the wider movement in Myanmar. Our ongoing support is so helpful and appreciated by the Burmese people during these dark days. Simply go to Insight myanmar.org slash donation to contribute today. or stay tuned to the end of the episode to hear more options. Now, let's hear from that guest himself.
01:14
Good day. Hey, wait.
01:21
A Good Day.
Host 01:51
I'm really delighted to be joined here by Coco, who is going to tell us a bit about his experience in the protest movement and some firsthand encounters and how he has been involved. So Coco, I know it's very late there. As you're talking to us. I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us here on Insight Myanmar podcast.
Coco 02:15
Yes, thank you. I'm really grateful for being here today and have the chance to, you know, talk with you.
Host 02:23
Yeah. So before we get into your last six weeks, which I know has been quite chaotic and hectic for you, and everyone else, I'd like to learn just a little bit about yourself and your life prior to February 1. So can you give us a bit of a background about your your upbringing and your educational background and everything else leading up to the
Coco 02:47
right, of course? Well, my name is Coco, and almost 31 years old now I am a doctor. I graduated five, six years ago and since I've graduated, I have been working with my dad was also a doctor and in his private clinic in as above an area for two three years before he passed away. And ever since then, I've been trying to step further my career is by studying abroad, I'm thinking of maybe UK or Australia, and I've been saving up for for the exams over there. And then come February 1, that coupe happens and all of the dreams get just wasted away.
Host 03:36
Right. So where were you exactly in your medical training? What point Have you gotten up to just within EMR?
Coco 03:43
Um, well I've actually graduated I am full full, full fledged a doctor now. But a medical degree in Myanmar is not easily accepted in our western country, or, or anywhere else in the world. To be perfectly honest. So in order to go work or further our careers in another country, we have to sit for the exams, debts that are designated for specific parts of the globe. For example, for UK they have HP Labs and for Australia, they have EMC and for us I think they have something called us Emily or something. So in order to work there or an N study further, I have to first pass their tests first. So So even though I am a full fledged doctor over here in Myanmar, I am not so much in other parts of the
Host 04:39
world. Right, right. So you graduated from medical school in Myanmar. Had you started any kind of work after in medical field after your graduation?
Coco 04:48
Yes, yes, I've worked with closely with my dad. I was his and he was studying under his wings before he passed away for two and a half year in his profit club. It's
Host 05:00
right. Yeah. I'm sorry about that. To ask just a very general question you must get from other people, why did you want to be a doctor?
Coco 05:12
Well, as, as an Asian, it's sort of like family pressure, and to be perfectly honest, and I was the firstborn, the elder. So there was a lot of hopes and dreams coming into my life and a lot of pressures as well. But that was up until I've actually joined the medical school. I actually failed a year over there, because it was quite hectic. And at first, and I it is, the educational system that we face in high school and at the medical schools are a huge difference in our country. So I have, I was having a little bit of difficulties there. But actually, my, my dad was kind of like my idols. So he's all he was always encouraging me even that I failed. And I wouldn't do quit medical school, he was always there to encourage me and bring me up and support me. So I decided to give it another try, even though I failed the second year. And then I just, you know, kept going. And after I graduated and started walking, and with my father enter his guardianship, that I actually enjoy working as a doctor. So that's, that's how I started feeling instead of walking like a doctor. During all those studies, it was very tiring, to be perfectly honest. I thought, you know, with every opportunity, I thought I was giving up and I always thought, I don't want to become a doctor. And I always thought there was sort of like, pressure. Now I'm, I was I thought I was pressuring into becoming a doctor, but only after graduating and working with my dad. And I started to know and feel how do what how, how it feels like to be a doctor and walk is one.
Host 07:07
Oh, yeah, thank you, I reminds me of how I came from a family of teachers. Both my parents were teachers. And so when I was a kid, obviously, the one thing I did not want to do was be a teacher. And somehow life, contorted me into going into not just having a job as a teacher, but then ended up going into graduate school and having positions very much education. That's a completely other story that I don't want to sidetrack what you're sharing, but just kind of funny how our, our family background comes into play as we go through life. And I just also want to emphasize how beautiful that story is with the connection with your dad. And I think with what you're doing now and what you've come to achieve. I'm sure he would just be so proud of you. And that everything that he gave you and how he supported you what it's leading to what you've been able to do now even through the hardships you had to pass through. So that's that's just a really wonderful thing to reflect on. You mentioned that you you had a bit of a struggle in getting to become a doctor and in the medical field, but eventually you came around to that. So what is it that you came to enjoy or to find fulfilling about the career once you pass through school?
Coco 08:25
You mean work? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I was working with my dad on actually, we were working in a private clinic at the suburban area. So the thing about suburban areas is that is heaps different from the city centers, their people actually, the people live over there, they're actually poor and this is gonna sound something like a fairy tale. But these things are actually happening in a third world country like Myanmar, the villagers actually sort of worship You, you know, I'm not saying I was I like playing God is the worship you at the same time, they depends on you. They come to you with the hope that they have some kind of illness that is making them feel nauseous or feel totally unwell. And some of these people actually come with a very life changing or life threatening condition like if they going to keep going with this illness, this disease, they are going to feel unwell for the rest of their life, you know, that kind of conditions. And all we have to do is give them regular treatments, the right treatment of for the rest of their life, or just a couple of months. With that kind of right treatment. They can be right as rain again, they can even start to you know, enjoy life again, especially with diseases like diabetes or kidney diseases, your diabetic patients The outrage Hall, my dad, that's what I heard. Sometimes teachers want to die because they don't feel like living anymore. It's like, they can't eat anything that is sweet. The staple food in Myanmar is rice. And, and a lot of these villagers have been eating rice all of their life, they just can't live without it. So not being able to eat carbohydrates, which is essentially rice here is very damaging to their life. And this sometimes they just say outright, is there any way that I can revert this? And is there any way that I can, you know, that would make them feel alive again, and my dad, one of the diabetic patient himself as a very supportive, and he's sort of like a, what I call is a naughty professor, because he has this way around with a way with his patients, and especially with the diabetic patients, he just, you know, sometimes he's strict with them, while sometimes he's just, you know, give them a little breathing space, like, okay, your sugars later, Hi, this visit. So I'm going to restrict your diet for a while, you have to listen to me take this medicine, just as I say, and within with come next visit. And if everything goes well, I'm my lead, you have, let's say, an ice cream as the tree. And you know, somehow it's like, these villagers are so in essence, and somehow it works with them every time. It's like, you know, watching him kind of nurture people in there is doesn't actually feel like a clinic anymore. It's like people come in, they just talk, you know, sometimes they have a laugh, and they just do their things. And it's somehow strikes me that this profession can actually help people. Like, you know, carrying them back from the verge of depressions or things like that, especially when he is treating mental illness, which is considered taboo. In our country, people rarely speak out about their mental illness. They don't, they just don't want to be called crazy. But so whenever my dad is treating mentally ill patient to he's very friend, and very considerate. And he even tells the family, that mental illness is not to be joked about and not to keep secret. And he's always upfront with them. And, and I really liked about the fact he's open and very caring about his patient. That's, that's what I learned from him. And that's, that's when I started, you know, enjoy being a doctor. So it sounds like he
Host 12:43
had a really good bedside manner.
Coco 12:46
Yeah, even though he's a professor, as my mom would call it. Yeah,
Host 12:50
that's great. So you really you learned from one of the best in the professions who also happened to be your own father. So that's really beautiful, how that all worked out. So you were on this path of trying to continue your medical education overseas when the coup broke on February 1? And can you walk us through what it was like that first day and the following week, when you were just coming to grips with the fact that a very new and unexpected reality of just taking place?
Coco 13:21
Right. It was a surprise, nonetheless. But actually, all of us were actually expecting this not expecting we, we know it might happen, because the junta and the military has been telling on so on social media, and in even to the news media's that they might do this, they say they're always do with saying that there isn't anything they're not going to do in order to save the country in their words, you know, so we knew something like this could happen. But what we didn't accounted for was we didn't know they will be stupid enough in this time and age to actually, you know, do the coop. So it was on February 1, I was woken up by my mom around like eight in the morning. And the first thing My mom told me was they've done it. And I was like who've done was and my mom was like the the they actually did it. And I was like, Are you sure? And my little brother came in and yeah, that he called me he calls me Morty. So Moriya is really happened. You can check your phone and I tried to use my phone and there was no internet. I was like, there's no internet and he said exactly. So there was no internet. And there was nothing on the TV. Nothing on the TV, no channels, no national TV and nothing was a radio either. All we could do was call each other and even then some of the operators are off the lines. were busy. So there's when we realize this things have actually happened because of this total media blackout. It couldn't have happened without the coup. So, so we were like, yeah, okay, so all we can do right now is just sit and wait for the news, what actually happened and who got arrested, and who got away, so we just have to wait for the news. So that then the the bad news came and all of the top position, our State Councilor, our president has got detained, but they will say so that was a relief. And that was that and nobody could. We were shocked. We were a little bit surprised. But we were shocked. So nobody actually went out there on the street. Yeah, we just sit in our homes and wait for the news. So what we should do or what would happen next.
Host 15:54
Right. So that's a really good accounting for just the initial shock of those first few hours. And for a few days. So then, what happened next, because we know from the news that the and from what you just said that the people did not go out in the streets right away. But eventually, that did happen. So what started to happen after the news really sunk, and after a few days, what was happening in the streets? And what were you doing personally?
Coco 16:21
Right. So it was around the afternoon, we started to get our internet connections back, and everything was confirmed. So So there it is, they've the coop is here. So we were like brainstorming, okay, what to do what to do, and people were panicking. Some of the peoples think, should should I start stocking up food now, like, there was a lot of panic gain over there, like over here. So, so, and there was no signs of protest yet, because we had very little time and during the shot, we don't know how to respond appropriately either. But then again, did a new started and information started flowing. And I don't know who started it, but it says in, we have to wait for like 72 hours, and wait and see what actually happens and how to respond to it. As some of them said, it's sort of like a sigh of from the other, you know, the military side that, that the the way that it's kind of like an operation that, that they made that a we have actually accepted the Cuban, they want to show the world that nobody is rioting, or nobody is protecting our industry, even after 72 hours, you know, even within this empty hour. So I think they were going to show these images of people being peaceful and sort of like proper trade, like, we welcome or we accepted the Cooper's there kind of thing. But some, you know, personally, I think it's somehow plays into our strained because during the 72 hours, a lot of us had the time to, like really sit down, discuss and brainstorm ideas on what to do next. You know, instead of going out there on the street and protesting, we get the chance to sit down and discuss what to do next. And there were a lot of ideas flying around. And we accepted this one thing, the CDM movement, like civil disobedience movement, people, a lot of people were starting suggesting it and because we are totally not familiar with any kinds of weapons or firearms at all, and given the history lessons, these hunters and their dogs are not above shooting anyone who go out there and you know, protest right now. So we have to think hard and carefully about how we would respond and, and we came up with this CDM movement, which which have a lot of evidence that it could work. So so we thought we were going to try this and a lot of the doctors started do or join in and they speak out that we were going to do this this CDM movement, this is soft power and this soft power has the ability and the evidence, stronger nerve in the past to actually defeat this hard power people. So we said okay, so Okay, so this is the the only thing that is tangible and credible. And we should do this. So we decided to give it a try. And so the first 372 hours go by we were trying to collect people and how do we actually do it and then again, as CDM movement, when we started the CDM movement, there were also another part of doctors and people who, who thought we were going to start with the red ribbon movement. Now at the same time, Red Ribbon movement is more like CDM but The thing is, they still goes to these hospital, you know, the hospital that they working this government hospital, they will still provide care to the patients, and also that the government hospital will still be running, but they will be wearing red ribbon on their body or on their chest or somewhere do show the fact that they do not support the coop, and they are actually against it. And there were a lot of debates for like a week, whether or not red ribbon movement would work, because the hunter, they couldn't care less if we wear or not wear anything on our body, as long as we are working for them, and the country is still running. So after we have really debating and discussion, these red ribbon movement, people are starting to slowly join the CDM movement. That's, that's how we decided to do it. And after, as soon as the 72 hour was over. People start to you know, start going out in the street started protesting there was this one very famous doctor from Mandalay, I forgot his name, I'm really sorry about this. He he was the one who actually started protesting that the protests actually started in Mandalay, he started there. And a lot of people think he was some sort of like, it, I don't know is sort of like a spy or, you know, the military people without because a lot of people will enter the vibe that we are going, we're not going to protest, we're just going to see to the CDM movement, and see how that goes. So there were some people who things going out in the street and protesting things are part of the military plan, and you know, giving them the chance to shoot at us, you know, something like that there was a lot of confusion going on back that time.
Host 22:00
Right. So you're describing this kind of chaotic period where the people, and especially the doctors are trying to figure out how to respond, do the doctors follow CDM, where they refuse to go to the hospitals and to work with the government in any capacity, I should say, work for the military in any capacity? Or do they go to the hospitals because they want to care for the patients, but to show that they are not supportive of the military regime, they are wearing a red ribbon to signify that they're there, they're fulfilling their duties, but they're not. There, they do not believe they want to work under this new regime. And as all these decisions are being made, and people are trying to figure out what to do, what I'm curious, as you mentioned, as you were describing, you know, we were thinking this or we were talking about this, and I'm wondering who we was, of course, I don't want you to identify any names of actual people. It's more what I'm curious about is the decision making process. So this is all happened, all of a sudden, people are suddenly talking in their networks to try to figure out what to do. People have different opinions, communication is a little bit difficult. So generally speaking, I'm just wondering, among the doctor community, and as you're having this conversation, you're engaged with different people, how is the decision making process going for determining coming down with a very, very high stakes decision of how you're going to respond, and having to correspond with different people in different places and somehow reach some kind of consensus?
Coco 23:36
Well, as luck would have it, before the coup, there was COVID-19. Right? So doctors are actually quite well connected. At that time when coop actually happened. We all of us have to you know, come in and bring strong about COVID-19 there were a lot of volunteers are working with us, non medical people of general volunteering for the COVID relief things. So we are quite well connected at that time. And there were various things coming into. So we were discussing about the the FA proficiency and efficacy of adverse things as well online. So so it was just a coincidence, but we were quite Connect well connected with each other. And of course, we have our Facebook groups, but we rarely taught there anymore. But still, we have a lot of Facebook groups, for doctors with you know, same years, just same graduated years and such. So everyone talk and we just saw Facebook is keen here so we just you know, spread the ideas upon the Facebook and the groups and the messages as well. And and that actually how It started in my opinion. And another thing is, because of COVID-19, there were a lot of volunteers from the doctor apart from the medical field, and we didn't actually have enough personal protective equipment or PBE, to handle the cases. So even with the cases, even with less equipment, and things, doctors were actually courageously fighting off COVID-19 on the front lines. So as Lego COVID people are actually routing and supporting the doctors, because they are portrayed as heroes in this time of need during this pandemic. So when things started, and the doctors say, we are going to do the CDM movement, and we discuss on on our Facebook groups and other social media platforms and other you know, secret groups as well. So when we actually do this and decided this could work, and we're gonna do this, and we posted it on social medias and announced Okay, we're going to do this, we just have the evidence in the past to actually work again, there's hunter and the military undock. So everyone actually just, you know, follow through, without some of them without even knowing what CDM actually is. But like 70% of the people know what CDM actually is, and how it works. About the 30% of the people don't really know what CDM is, but doctors are doing it and a lot of the other people are joining to fight against the hunter. So we are united against a common enemy. And that's how it started. That's my opinion. Yes.
Host 26:48
Right, right. So the first week, you're describing the doctors being on the forefront of the CBM movement, and you actually personally being in the middle of this as well of deciding what you're going to do of coordinating. And you have these networks that are set up based on the COVID response over the past year. So there's ways to have this easy communication. And so even before the general populace, and even some of the doctors themselves have an understanding of what CDM is, these guys in the medical profession are at the forefront of creating a movement that would now come to define the entire six week uprising up to this point, that leads us only to the first week, things have been moving very fast. So after this CDM movement starts to happen among the doctors walk us through what happens next. For those in the medical profession. What after the CDM movement starts taking off, what is the next involvement or concern that doctors start to think about?
Coco 27:46
Well, when we decided to do this EDM movement, there was still doctors in the medical field who are closely related to people with military background or as a dad as a soldier or a general or, you know, so we have to think about that too, because these people could be potential spies. And we believe they are not about selling off selling us off to the hunter, if you know, push come to shove. So we have to do this in secret. So we have to discuss everything in secret. And that's that's how these underground connections or network of doctors actually started. But this one of the doctors, one of the doctors who, who is a friend, during the medical school actually call me call me through one of these secret abs. And he told me that they were actually starting an underground group, more might join in later, and they want to have a connection throughout the country, because they are towns and cities where they are a lot of military influences. And they are less their city with less influence just like Django. So in order to support them, physically, you know, financially and psychologically we thought we have to, you know, get in connection or get connected with everyone else and actually arcs how they're doing and what are their plans. So we thought we have to coordinate somehow. And that's how we Dave started. Some of the really young doctors started this network and I had the chance the opportunity to join them. Actually, I wasn't I wasn't actually a government doctor. In our terms, we call it in service doctor. So even though I am a strong CDM supporter, I am not a CD, am Doctor I'm just a private doctor who works outside and not for the government. So I thought, if I thought, you know, I could help them in a way or two, because these people working for the government, these real CDM, doctors could be in danger, whereas I am not. Because the government doesn't actually have my address or my phone number, so I can move more freely than they are. So I thought, hey, yeah, so they trust me enough to put me in this network. And so if I can help them, you know, I can help them financially or, you know, even if they have one accommodation, or general a place to hide, because we were pretty sure if we are going to do this, we have to hide at some point, you know, go into hiding and do this and secret, nonetheless, so we thought these things would happen, and how they would affect our lives. So we started doing this network, and as started helping the doctors, not just doctors, everyone in medical fields, like, there were also nurses in there. And they're also labor walkers who are walking, you know, at the janitors and everyone who walked out the hospital, they started joining in on the CDM. Two, so we have to care for them. And a lot of these doctors are somewhat financially stable at this point. So we were giving priority. whenever it comes to financial support, we were giving priorities to the nurses and these janitors and others basic level walkers, because they are the one that needs care and support more so than others. And it's actually pay off, we are always trying to prioritize their livelihood and well being and financial support. And at the same time, when hunters started arresting these doctors, illegally, and they just broke your door down and just stormed in and started arresting these TDM doctors, they were the ones these people living in the hospital compound are the ones who actually try and protect these Actually, these doctors CDM doctors, so we were helping each other in our own way.
Host 32:20
Yeah, that's beautiful. That sounds incredible. You have people of all different kinds of professional echelons. And people inside and outside that are supporting, roughly speaking, what percentage would you say of people in government hospitals are now
Coco 32:38
have joined CDM I would say around 70% if not 80, I think it could be around 70%. But we are gaining more and more people to join CDM movement even now. 70% is roughly for medical personnel only. They are some people who are not doing CDM I don't know whatever their reason is, military backgrounds or someone and, uh, we have heard every now and then that this, these people actually have the gall to try and open up all of the hospital again, I think just recently, just last week, the military has announced that mainly General Hospital has opened up again and, and started welcoming patients but nobody goes and we this is just like a facade. We all know this. Nobody can actually run the the General Hospital in Mandalay, which is the largest hospital in Mandalay was just what 20 people know, they can't actually do that. But that is somehow sort of like tricking the people into thinking that cdms actually failed, and that they're doing that in a lot of the friends too. So yeah, I think 70% of the doctors have actually joined.
Host 34:02
Right. And that's why it's so great to be able to talk to you and people like you who are able to go behind these fake reports and pictures and give us the real story of what's happening. And I also appreciate how when you're describing the CDM movement, you're not just talking about the higher level doctors with many years experience in positions you're talking about. The nurses, the janitors, everyone involved in every aspect of the hospital operation and how people are working together how people are, those who are not so much in need are not requiring assistance. So those that need the need can have it whether it's people stepping up for financial need for protection or hiding CDM workers or their family or ferrying them away. I'm curious about what those financial needs are, as you know, we do now have a way to collect donations and bring them into the CDM movement and at the end of our interview, we'll also be We'll be sharing that information with listeners. And they can give a donation to support the general movement or they can earmark it for your work specifically. So I think it's good to have a better idea of actual numbers that you're working with to be able to support those medical field who are taking this courageous decision to be able to leave their work, despite all the risks inherent in that and to join CDM. Roughly speaking, can you give us any idea of for and I know, it must differ quite a bit with someone's position and family and other necessities and such? But can you give us any general idea of how people are supported when they choose to step away from medical field and join CDM?
Coco 35:46
Well, we are actually doing whatever we can, but we have these local distribution groups, we decided to do this because Honda has started to arrest all of the celebrities and influencers and all of the foundations, organizations that were openly supporting CDM has the capacity to rally, the people influence the people and then and the organization that have the financial background to actually back and support the CDM movement. So they have arrested a lot of the influencers and allows the organization founders as well. So we thought we conscious make a big group. And we were we decided that these kids actually decided that young doctor decided we were going to divide into smaller groups and, and try to support the local people, you know, like a lot of local medical related personnel is in the areas, and that's how they can safely go from one place to another and support them financially or otherwise. At first, we were like, We started getting funds from a lot of the doctors and other people as well. So we decided to go to them personally at first and ask them what what they actually need. If that is money, yes, we will provide them with money. And if it is not, or it's just, you know, daily necessities like rice or oil or other cooking necessities and food, yes, we will give them that. So it was the fact that we agreed upon. And some of the people they just asked for the financial support, because they still have the luxury and the opportunity to go out there and still shop and buy their own food and stuff. And they are other people who have to go deep into hiding or not know quite close to the mockers, or they have their own problems. So they just ask for food supplies or general something like that, which is actually happening with the real will Walker, the since the route railway walkers as started joining this EDM movement, did it they were like 1000s of people in there in this single compound with their families and everything. So they didn't. They didn't ask for financial support, they just asked for food that could last for months during the CDM movement. So that's exactly what people did. So we did the same thing for our medical personnel too.
Host 38:37
Right? Yeah. Okay. So it just depends on the need of the person and what you're able to provide. And in terms of your own fund and resources, do you have sufficiency for being able to support those who are taking that risk by stepping down and joining CDM
Coco 38:56
at first, it was one of the concern as well, that's why we try to list the people and and prioritize people who actually need the support the most from from the ground up. So a lot of the doctors like 99% of the doctors didn't actually need any kind of support except for a place to hide or stay for a moment. So that was that and so from there, we actually tried to help the other that are in dire need first, but that was before CRP h hour our real government and step in. There was a during the first month of coop, there was a lot of problem and a lot of the elected formerly elected people were on the run so they didn't actually have the luxury of forming a temporary government yet. So now we call this CRP h. So they were on the run so it was very chaotic, but once they form temporary government tiph has appointed Minister, which is our orthopaedic professor. And once he become Professor becomes the minister, he decided he will do the he will handle all of this supporting group. And he will start to financially support all of these and all the help that they can so that they started trying to get a list. But even then there was a lot of confusions and fears that, you know, people were afraid, the emails that he provided on the social media, are they are they the real ones? What if these emails got hacked, and they got the list? Are we going to be arrested and there was a lot of fears, we have to actually go through that fear for like a week and a lot of reassurance going into there to Joe just Sure, just making sure people just started giving him the list. Because without the list, ie These crbh can actually started, you know, going started in recycling all the funding, so stuff. So there was a lot of confusions and a lot of work too. But I'm just a grand supporter helpers. So I don't really know how it went down.
Host 41:16
Right, so let's take us along this pathway of the medical response, we've covered a bit of how the doctors were involved in CDM. What was the next activity or involvement that doctors and medical workers began to engage in as the protest started to progress?
Coco 41:36
Well, on even though they are on the run, these cm doctors, a lot of lot of my friends are CDM doctors, even though they some of them even have a warrant on their hands. And especially in I think, a chain and kitchen region, they actually posted their their hash shot of these people and doctors and people who are doing this EDM movement, you can see them out on the street, the poster by the hunter. So even though, then they sort of have a warrant out there, and the names are out there, they have been actually joining the walking protests. And they're also supporting and helping out with the other CDN, people from other fields as well. And before all of these chaos and violence, we actually tried to provide medical covers for the protester to the note there. Back in the day, when there were 1000s of people on the street like people see of humans or co people out in the street, as you will see on tu tu tu tu movement are something we tried to provide medical cover for them. Things were a bit more peaceful, a lot people a lot more peaceful than right now. But once the shooting has started, we try to give more care and more medical cover for these people as much as we can. A lot of these CDM doctors are actually helping with the medical cover right now.
Host 43:14
Right so as the protest started to progress, a lot of these doctors and medical workers were actually going out into the streets to assess the expected violence that would come including those doctors, as you mentioned that had warrants out for them whose headshots were being circulated. So they were taking even greater risks. What was it like for those doctors? And maybe you personally have experience or you've heard from your colleagues who have What was it like for those doctors who were going out into the protests to care for the non violent protesters fearing violence?
Coco 43:51
Well, just like I said, At first, it was a bit peaceful. The only things we had to treat was bruises and scrapes and muscle cramps. And then certainly bam, one day and we both started getting shot all over the places started off with rubber bullets, tear gases. And then certainly, you know, one day there was started using a live emanation openly out in the open. They weren't actually holding back anymore. So at first, we we have already expected this. We also discussed in the group we talked to their friends and every time we go out for a medical cover as we're you may have you may have seen it on social media is like we write our blood group and images and contact phone number on our arms, you know, like who to call and this is my blood type in case we get shot is sort of like going to war. So every time we do that, we jokingly say to each other Okay, so is this the day that we are going to get shot or somebody's going to get shot and we just, you know, choke each other. But it came to reality, one day that people started getting shocked. And even though we were expecting this, we were shocked to a degree. And a lot of my friends said, who actually been at the place of incidents, they actually said that is was horrifying. And and there was a lot of blood everywhere. And there was nothing like on the operation table or anything that we have ever seen before. And these are coming from people that have already dealt with death on a daily basis at a government hospital or private hospital, but these things are like hella different this that the the thing that they seem the the violence and and all the cries and scream that these scenes they say is, this is what hell might look like or no sounds like and they're like, Okay, this, this is a gunshot wound now, okay, this is again, show also, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? What am I going to do and like, at that point, they, what they say was all I could do was just pull a tiny k out and put a rubber band above the gunshot wound. And, and that was it. That was that was the only thing that I could do and, and they were shot for like three seconds there and that nobody know what to do we actually prepare for this, we have online seminars on how to deal with a plastic injuries and gunshot wounds. But when you see it a front, like right in front of your face, like everyone's shocked, we don't know what to do. Like there are a lot of bleeding. So normally, we will try and you know, stop the bleeding. But when his gun show, we're like, Okay, this is real. There, we're getting shot now. So that everyone's like stunned for like three seconds, and then sort of Okay, okay, so stop the bleeding, stop the bleeding, and they started pulling out their tiny gaze, and they do their things. And all they could do was sent them off to like real hospital where they can actually do an actual, you know, actual surgery. And more often than not, these soldiers were actually shooting to killed. So not a lot of tiny gills were actually used to be perfectly honest, you may have seen it on social media is that the people, these dogs were aiming for the head. And we can't actually put a tiny k on it hashtag womb. And that was at the start, where we could actually connect, collect the able to, you know, collect the body, and with the gunshot wound to the head. And lately, we can't even collect the bodies anymore. It's like, they're not even allow anyone to come near the body. And whenever everything's cools down, they just dragged the body away. And they just outright dispose of the body like they burn it is on the medius. Now teachers burn it without the permission of the family. And there's just a short notification, a short notification or a phone call to the family like, yeah, your son or your daughter is dead now. So we are going to cremate him. And that was it that as so much as not nothing so much as a go by or anything. That's that's what they're doing right now. And that's the reality that we're dealing with.
Host 48:31
Yeah, it's stunning. And it's really a terrorist organization that is not holding anything sacred at any kind of norms that even in the hardest of conditions you often find. So going back to how you described how the doctors and the medical staff were dealing with those injuries that they could actually try to treat a couple of follow up questions there. So first, when they're in the streets having some kind of makeshift tent or something where they're, they're treating people, what kinds of resources and facilities Do they have available? Is it adequate for what they're dealing with? And second, you mentioned follow up question to that one, if they're going into hospitals, for the more serious ones, how are they able to have access to those hospitals or those state hospitals that they're able to go in? Do they have to sneak in? Are there more resources in there? What are the doctors and medical staff are able to do to bring resources to bear for those who need it who have sustained injury?
Coco 49:37
Well, we every single one of us who are going to go out and a medical cover we have a list. We call it a shot list for emergency and there's also a long list for emergency whereas you know we bring a bandages tiny case and you know something to stop the bleeding all these injections and sutures and needles and what Dodge, like a emergency bag we have together with us. And we have a lot of, we have, you know, some nurses, like a couple of nurses that will help us along with whatever that emergency might be needed. And they're also volunteers who, you know, strong men who can actually carry the patients from one person to the one place to the next. So, at first, we were going out with ambulances. And we tried to find a place not so far away from the protest, like, when there was used to be a lot of huge protests area. So we try to stay quite close, but not too far from the area of protests and treat whatever illness they may have. And when shooting started, at first, we were like, okay, so we are medics, we are doctors, we are mad eggs. So we are also wearing this scrub. And we have this symbols like a Red Cross, but not like the Red Cross. Not not like the organization, Red Cross, but you know, as some symbol representing that we are medics and volunteers. So we thought we'd be safe, you know, at at a distance like this. And if we are not in the immediate line of fire, we thought we'd be safe because we're medics, and nobody, nobody would be bad enough to shoot at us. At first, we were like, Okay, if the gunshot or you know, any kinds of wound, it's to the protester, yeah, we kind of, we're going to save them, you know, we're going to give treatment and if that is from the other side, if the other side is also injured, we are also enduros. ethically, we have to give treatment to the other side as well. So but you know, even though we didn't actually want to, but ethically, it was the ethical things to do so. So we started off with something like that. And then when, you know, things get intense and violence, you rub that these people doesn't discriminate, they just shoot at ambulances to they shoot at ambulances, they even you know, go into medical tents. These, they are CCTV footages in non Janko, but other parts of the country where there were medics and volunteers sitting peacefully inside medical tent covered at the front there was there was an ambulance over there at the front, you know, covering the tent, so that we are covered from they were covered from the line of fire, there was sitting peacefully inside the tent and attending to the patient. These underdogs just want straight into the tent, and just started beating the crap out of you know, everyone on site, you know, whether it is medic, or doctors or volunteer, they just don't care that and when they were beating the crap out of them, they were always aiming for the head. I don't know what's wrong with these people. But everything they do, they just aim for the head there was hitting these on this one particular CCTV footage, he was beating the crap out of this young volunteer boy in the head until his notes started bleeding. And this and after that, they just, you know, put them into the jail car and, and arrested them. We actually didn't know what what the follow up story was, there was a lot of story back then. And that's when we started to realize that okay, we need to hide, even though we are doctors and medics we can be on the spot we could not be in the line of fire is not enough for us to be safe. So we started to retreat into somewhere secluded, and we started giving informations to each other only when it is necessary, like, okay, we have this private hospital or clinics there that have openly told us the doctors that they're going to help with the police cases, you know, just like getting shots and whatnot. And they they told us outright they are going to help with these injuries. So we only take these patients to these hospitals and perform surgeries. And we still have some government hospital that are still operating without the influence of the military hunter yet. So we we still have access to the emergency rooms and the operations room over there. But we are we're having less and less control over what hospital we can use since military have set up camps in or try to set up camps and a lot of these government hospitals during last month.
Host 54:55
Right, right. So you're describing this horrendous situation where Not only medical workers and doctors are not being protected, but in some cases are actually being targeted. We've seen images of ambulances riddled with bullet holes, we've seen medical volunteers dragged out of tents and beaten to death on CCTV, some of the hardest footage I've ever seen. We've seen other medical volunteers take shots to the head, far away from snipers. And so you've had to respond as a medical profession, by as you put it to me, before this interview, going rogue, those were your words that these doctors and you've had to go rogue in terms of being undercover, and performing your duties. And when you describe this, to me, the thing that came to my mind is going back to my personal history. So my grandfather served in World War Two, the American army, and he served as a conscientious objector, which meant that he was a pacifist, he refused to carry a weapon, he refused to injure another person, those were his idealistic beliefs at the time. And because of that, he was trained to be he was drafted, he had no choice, but he was trained to be a medic. So he wore the Red Cross sign that showed that he was a medic, and even as people in his unit were injured and targeted, and in fights, he was safe, he was able to, to administer them to use his training, he actually told me that at one point, he delivered the baby of a German woman who was going into labor. That was his duty. And my grandfather is Jewish. And so I'm reflecting on the irony that my Jewish grandfather was safe in Nazi Germany and World War Two, for performing his duties. Because there were certain conventions that even the Nazis respected during that time. And you're describing a situation where the terrorism and the assault that you're facing from your own people are more egregious than a Jewish medic in Nazi Germany in World War Two. And that's just stunning to me. I don't have words, to be able to understand how jarring that contrast is,
Coco 57:13
right? is really horrifying on the ground level. And yes, just like the word we said, we have decided to gone rogue and as the only way we could actually help out people here and as the method we've been using ever since.
Host 57:33
Right, right. And so when you're talking about the resources that you have, are you able to have adequate supplies? Or are there things that you're in need of and that you're you're hoping to get through some kind of import or donation,
Coco 57:49
right now, we can still make, do we, there are a lot of organization who are trying to help out with our supplies and whatnot. So we are still hanging on. We are not under supply just yet. But if there's food skill, war would break out. And it could become a whole lot of story, though.
Host 58:20
So one thing I'd also like to ask you about is your own personal direct experience. Within the protest movement, we've talked a little bit about, overall, what's happening, what's happening with the greater movement, what other people are doing in terms of strategies. But I'd really like to take a moment and just check in with you with how you're doing, how you're feeling what it actually feels like to be on the front lines, because some of the listeners as they're getting these stories, and pictures and even videos, they still don't really translate into giving an idea or feeling of what it's actually like in person to suddenly be leaving what's normal society and stepping in to a non violent protest where there could be violence on the other side, and minute by minute, day by day to be in that crowd and that culture and that feeling. So can you give our audience some idea of what it actually feels like to go out and be on the streets?
Coco 59:15
Well, I'm going to be perfectly honest with you here. I am 30 years old, and I have seen what the Generation Z art industry they have not seen and have not heard of. I've know what the older generation like the older generation Y and Generation X I've seen and heard of so I'm gonna be honest with you, I was actually afraid to go out on the street. Call me a hypocrite. I was actually persuading people to join the CDM movement, you know, put themselves forward but actually, I was straight to free to go out on the street at first but this one of my friend was very active. He was one of those few people who Go right out in the street, the very first day when people go out in the street to protest. And what he told me was, at that time, there were a lot of news and activities on Facebook and social media. And people sort of exaggerate things online, like, okay, people are getting shot now. And you know, heads are being cut off. And there are grenades and whatnot. And there are bloods everywhere. A lot of news like that on Facebook, and a lot of those things were not true. They were all fake or exaggerated in a way. So what he, what he told me was, do, you got to know stop being online so much, you know, just stop and just come with me out in the street and see what is actually like, so, so I thought, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna do it, I've been, you know, persuading people to join the CDM and put them in danger. So it's only natural that I, but I should also put myself out there, too. So the first day that I went out, it was back in the day, you know, when protesters were peaceful, and, you know, no violence back then. And it was actually peaceful back then, you know, people were the protester were actually trying to make peace and become friendly with the security forces. Back then they were offering the police food and water bottles, you know, just not, you know, handing them out, we just, they just, you know, put it in front of police forces and say, Okay, these water bottles are for you. We're just here to make friends, which is you to, you know, tell the world, our side of the story, we just need to pretend we're not going to be violent. And the police were actually they didn't say anything, but it was okay, back then. There are no shooting or anything. And so I just, you know, started going out there with some time with him sometimes, you know, just alone and joining the general areas of the gathering where there are a lot of protester. And then, you know, one day came, and they started, you know, shooting rubber bullets and standard knees and things. And it was actually very scary. I, I took a break, like, on the weekend. And on this one Monday, when I decided to go out again, I've been hearing news on Facebook, that they have actually decided to become violent. I mean that the security forces, they were trying to violently disperse the crowd and handling the situation. So what I did was I was I had to buy all these protective equipments like goggles and fire resistant gloves in order to put out the funkier gases and you know, maybe throw that away, just like in the movies never actually had the chance to do that, though. So, the first time I was there, and I was so ready, you know, I've sort of felt like a Power Ranger at that point. Okay, Okay, I'm ready. I got my goggles on, I got my mask on. And I was like, okay, you know, just throw it to me, I'm gonna do this shit. And, and when things started to happen when they start firing, and just using the standard names, and this is the very first time in my life that I have actually hear this gun firing. And I wasn't actually sure there was rubber bullets or live ammunition or whether it was standard, nice or not, it was the thing was, it was very loud. And the first time I hear it is like, bam, bam, bam, bam, and I was like, I almost peed my pants, to be perfectly honest. And what I almost ran, and instead of running, I just sat down, because at that time, my my legs can actually carry me to anywhere i'd so I just dropped down on my knees and tried to breathe normally. And it wasn't like in the movies, where, you know, everything slows down. And you think, clearly No, it wasn't like that, you know, every, everything was so fast. And people were running, there was a lot of loud noises everywhere. Everything was so chaotic. And I just sat down on my knee and I thought to myself, okay, so this is it. Now we're getting shot at, I don't know, with wired, but what am I going to do? What am I going to do and, and then I looked to my side, and I look to my friend and what I saw was just people almost half my age and some of them are actually girls. I'm going to use the word girls here because they aren't warm and they even you know, almost 18 or some are not even 18 there's the looks so young, like maybe 15 or 16 years old girls and boys. They were actually you know, ready to face what was coming to them. They have this war face on them, you know, stern face on them carrying a water bag. Do ready to put out any tear gas coming their way and my friend was the she bearers. Some are even smaller than me in size and looks a lot younger than me and they will all Ready to do what they were, you know what they came here to do and, and I was here letting fear took over me. So I just thought to myself, okay, so this is, this is not how you're going to win this fight. So you have to calm yourself down people a lot younger than us are fighting this war, this is your Tussaud's, you have to do this. And so I tried to do it, you know, I tried to get back and try to get into position and I sort of like a couple of tear gases fly pass over me a couple of times. And then you know, I tried to realize what was happening and how to actually do that. And, you know, putting out the tear gases, helping them out. And when they you know, when the bulldozer came in to actually destroy the barricade, these shield bearers start to slow, gentle retreat slowly back into the street, which is slowly, you know, go back and retreat and while trying to throw away and put out any tear gases, we can find this as how we did things on the street.
Host 1:06:08
Okay, so you're describing like a really vivid, moment by moment description of what it's like to step into a really foreign situation, unlike any you faced and just have to adapt to this new reality to the danger. Everything else. And one of the things you mentioned is that you just have to find this inner calm, somehow have all this chaos and potential violence and trained military and weaponry, noise smells that are coming at you. And you somehow have to respond from a place of calm for your own safety. I understand theoretically, the importance of that. But doing it is a completely different story. So how did you go about trying to achieve that inner calm when you really weren't calm on the outside?
Coco 1:07:02
Well, yeah, it just, just like I said, I was looking at this kid, you know, I'm fighting for what they believe in, and, you know, are trying to win back their freedom. And when I actually had this chance to talk with a few of them, especially with the the actual, you know, frontline shield bearers, and kids and I asked them okay, so I was scared. shitless So, what, how was your first time like, and, you know, how long have you been here, and they were like, it's what they said was actually, they were very supportive, it's really normal to feel this way, the very first time and they said, is normal, what you what you have to do is just, you know, keep coming back. Because the very first time you felt it's going to be out of the world is nothing you have ever seen, you know, ever heard of or ever fell, and it's okay, do we scare, but what you have to do is you have to, you know, try to get used to it build up this resistant and to all these noises, and, and all these feelings, and all these, all these things that is happening around you. And what they actually said was, they didn't actually feel fear, you know, when fear overtook me what they felt was, like, pure rage, they were angry. what they said was, they were angry, it was rage and bloodthirsty ness that that took them over, you know, even though they were at the frontline, you know, holding the shields, all the old he was thinking was, they just want to go up and you know, just get up and just run into the crowd and give the security forces a piece of their mind. And that's all they wanted to do the very first time but what he said was, at that time, they look on their size and their, you know, she'll comrades, too and, and, and they, some of them, you know, ox themselves, they they told them to ox themselves, okay? So we're here, we're doing this. So if we get up and fight now, we are 100% sure we're not going to win and there is in you know, much that we can do to win this fight. So what they asked was, do we want to fight or do we want to win? And they said the answer was very clear to them that they they don't want to fight right now. Not not physically anyway. So what they wanted was they wanted to win. They wanted to win this war, and not not just this battle. So that's how they find their calmness and that's how they have been, you know, out on the street every day. No holding the shields being closest to the danger and yet they have never broken any formations or anything. That's how these kids have been, you know, handling this situation.
Host 1:09:57
That's incredible. Yeah, that's that's really incredible. So Basically, these kids are going from just living normal lives like kids anywhere in the world without having ever faced any of this in their life outside of a video game. And then they approach these barricades, and they're overwhelmed by fear, and then that fear turns to rage, and then that rage turns to some kind of calm calculation that they want to win. And this rage is not going to help them win. So then they learn how to fall into formation and follow some kind of discipline, and go about some kind of unit decision making process of what the best way forward is to achieve those aims. And this is all happening before eyes kind of day after day. So for you personally did you start to fall into a similar pattern of going through a similar cycle of from fear to rage to a bit of a detached calculation, or what was the process like for you
Coco 1:10:53
similar, but it it, it took a few days for me to actually sell down to so I first, just like I said, I was so scared at first, but not actually at the very front blind. So what I what I had to handle, and my duty was in that Bay, which is, you know, putting out tear gases and be a lookout, and, you know, look for an escape plan, I actually sort of drove by escape plans at all a way to run when things get, you know, get worse or something like that. So, but the thing was, these security forces, they tried to, you know, drive you back into the street into the streets, like, out on the road main road into the smaller streets, and they were very rude about it, you can even hear them yelling and swearing and screenings, they were, they were even taunting these protests to and they even uses slingshot to shoot at you. So when we retreat back into the streets, the residents have all of these trees, open their doors to welcome us, you know, so we sort of disperse and high into these apartments. And most of the time, security forces just stop at the status three, they don't usually go in because they are actually scared that people might started you know, throwing things are from the balconies and or from the apple floor. So if they don't have the number to go into the street, they don't do that. They are very clever. They're way really cheeky ambassadors. So they just, you know, way down, industry tried to turn the people and you know, swearing at people and what they did was they actually, you know, break of mirrors and glasses of nearby cars. They were you know, kicking and shouting, and some of them even, you know, tear the tires of tradeshows, and cars and bicycles or anything nearby, they just destroy everything that they see. And they're taunting and swearing at us. So yes, if you ask me, if my fear turns into rage, just like this kid, yes, yes, I, whenever they were doing something like that, I just, you know, just go just want to go out there and give them a piece of my mind, but is not a clever thing to do. So I have to control myself. And after two or three days, huge, sort of, you know, just got into it. Now if they taught you just sort of taunt bag, if you're sure if I mean, if I'm sure if I'm at a safe enough place. But more often than not, we don't do that because most of the time when we go out and protest is not our place of residence is not our streets, not per se so we don't want to put the residences in danger. So whenever they're taunting whenever they're destroying things, we just keep our mouth shut and just took it as so that we don't put the registered residents of the neoprene streets and apartments into more danger.
Host 1:14:14
Right, right. So these guys are just bullies. I mean, you're just describing these these guys are just fucking bullies out in the street. Just, you know, like any, you know, any any mentality of any bully you find anywhere that are just engaging in wanting to puff themselves up by being able to, you know, to push anyone around any way they're able to get away with. Yeah, right. So I want to take a moment to describe some of this rage that you're talking about and how you're working with it, especially in the context of what has so far been a non violent movement. Of course, we're talking on March 22. So By the time people listen to this things might have changed. But up till now it has been a thoroughly non violent movement. And even as this rage is overtaking you and overtaking others, out of a detached calculation of how to win overall, this non violent ethos is remaining. So I want to ask a couple questions about that. So first, just examining your own personal sense of rage and how you're understanding it and working with it. So, of course, Myanmar is largely a Buddhist country, there are many of in within the protests, certainly not all, because it's quite diverse in terms of ethnicity and background, but there are many Buddhists that are engaged on the side of the non violent protesters. And I think many right now are confronting the purpose of non violence and the ability to maintain it both in terms of a practical and logistical level, as well as religious and what Buddhism teaches about cause and effect and karma. And what and, and with each action, what will come in this life or a future life, in terms of a reaction, and this is all being looked at and calculated, both in terms of the overall desire to want to win, as well as these kinds of religious tenants? And so how are you reconciling this within the Buddhism that you brought up, that you were brought up with? And that you believe in as well as, how are you seeing other people confront how to examine the need, possibly for some kind of retaliation or, or a change in tactics with some of the religious edicts of Buddhism? Well,
Coco 1:16:53
we decided to adopt this non violence policy. Because there actually there were a lot of theories when the coop happens. And one theory that we all agree with is this. And there are a lot of proven evidences in history, that soft power have the actual power to win against hard power. So so we decided we aren't going to do this. And another thing is, this is not the first time the first coop, these have been in our country. So every time something like this happen, and military, God involve itself in all of these riots and protests and things, they have sort of like a playbook. And they always use the same strategies and tactics, wherever they can, from this same type as from this same book. So what what they're going to do is they want us to become violent, and they want us to attack them. And I'll head on, it's sort of like, this is the violence is, is their power, you know, is their playing feel. So they're trying to taunt you and lure you into playing in their home base in their home team, and they're gonna, they're gonna overpower you with their weapons and their violence and the brutality. So we did, we decided we're going to avoid that at all costs. So that's when the non violence policy started. And a lot of us agree with that, as well. And you mentioned something about religion. And yes, when these protests happen, so the world sees Myanmar as really racist and chaotic places, there are a lot of violence and no disagreement between each other people or persons have different skin color, or ethnicities, or different religions. The world sort of sees us like this, but what we would like to what I would like to point out is, it's, it's all just a facade appropriate canta that these haunter and their political party has been putting out a front so that the world sees as the international community sees us, as the country where, you know, sort of like a violent barbarians people live in. Actually, it's not true. You know, when we're out on the street, all of the protester have different social backgrounds, different religions, and all of us are just a big crowd in there, supporting each other helping each other. You may have also see it on social media when when you know, things were peaceful. There were a lot of moms, you know, helping out with the Muslim people, you know, Muslim people in a crowd marching down the street. And you know, a lot of other non Indian looking people or are, you know, cheering, cheering, cheering them up and you know, the vice versa. And you may have also seen other people, you know, people coming out from the mosque to do cheer the ongoing crowd, bringing out food to feed us, you know, there were a lot of culturally different racially different and religiously different people in here united against this haunter. And it has always been true. Not not just because of this incident, we it has always been true. We were always supportive of each other. We weren't actually you know, fighting and killing each other because we pray to a different God or we worship different theories is not true. So, when you say there are people of Buddhist backgrounds decided to, you know, adopt is non violence policy is everyone is the same, you know, Muslim, we have Muslim in their Hindu insane, they're Christian people in their, you know, everyone, we have decided to show the world that we are not violent. We're not what the hunter, you know, petering us and showing the world as if to be and another thing is the issue of Rohingya people, and especially, with regards to Rohingya people, our country, as a whole has been put on ICJ and we have been defending dancers, Fuji has been defending the case against this Rohingya genocide on ICJ, and what we would like to say is that we're, we're defend, we weren't, we're not defending the hunter. What what people think is dos as uwg were was defending this military who were killing these Rohingya people. It was not so we're not murderers. We're not violent people. We never, we would never and we have never agreed or encourage the military to do kill and murder all these people or burn down their villages know, what our sensoji was doing was who was defending the Myanmar people, not the hunter. And during this Rohingya issue, we, all of us in yamapi, this Burmese people, all of us, we were dumped enough to believe the lies and the stories of the hunter. We're not saying it to plead to the international community right now. No. So the story from the hunter side was what we knew was Rohingya people started the attack on the Rakhine police officers. And some of the police officers were killed. Some of the villagers were burned. And what we felt was, you know, anger and rage and sadness for people who live in Rakhine. And these Rohingya Rohingya people were put in the dark so much that none of us Burmese people knew they existed. And hunter actually made sure of that. They always keep the news of Rohingya people in the dark. So we never actually knew or heard about Rohingya people before these violence in Rakhine started like two or three years ago. So the side and the stories from our side were quite different from what the world was seeing. And there were a lot of fake news. And, and there were, you know, a lot of pictures of the people getting killed in African countries, these pictures are used, and you know, of spread fake news by some of the media's not, you know, famous media is just on social media everywhere. So people start to get confused. And we, we don't really know what to do and how to feel anymore. But if we actually knew what Hunter was capable of, like what they're doing right now, we would have, you know, stop and did everything we could do actually stop all of these ethnic cleansing or genocide of the Rohingya. We're not i'm not saying that to plead to the international community, we are, you know, peaceful people, we are not murderers, that the hunter as sad as out to be this is this is not us. That's what this part of the reason why we are adopting this non violence strategy even today. Even you know, when the hunter is shooting at us. And you know, maybe things have things may change in the future, but what I want to say is, this is not who we are in nature.
Host 1:24:59
Right. So you You're saying that the killings that the junta initiated to the Rohingya in Rakhine, that the they have endeavored to portray this campaign as something that they were not doing alone. But that was a feature of an overall violent attitude among Burmese that was then put out to the world to want to give this kind of imagery that Burmese people are just inherently violent and hateful, and that that, that characterization is something that Burmese feel today is, is a stain on how the world sees them because of this, but within the country that many Burmese are feeling now, some sense of regret or remorse, or even awakening that they got it wrong, that they bought into certain measures of fake news and things spreading on Facebook and propaganda and such, and that they were buying into a story that the military was executing, that they're now realizing is very much not true. Do I have that right?
Coco 1:26:11
This is the same strategy, not the same tactic that hunter has been using all of these, all of these, you know, times. Right? If you've, if you you know, maybe a lot of people may have noticed, at the start, you know, everything was peaceful. We were protesting peacefully, they were trying to stop the protester peacefully, and then you they have planted spies among us, you know, wearing same as, as as a civilian, and tried to rile people up and started throwing stones and, you know, make the protests, all chaotix and things and that is what they did back in 1988. And then, you know, once people become violent and started killing cops, they switch out these cops with soldiers and, and justify the actions to start killing people. That is what they're doing right now. And it may be too late. But now we realize that that is exactly what they did with Rohingya people to know that our side of the story started with Rohingya people attacking the police station in Rakhine, but maybe, but we are now like 100% Sure. The story started that way. But we don't know what actually agitated them. What actually taunted them do hate these policemen and the and this security forces so much that Rohingya people would go to the police station and burn it down and started killing the club's we don't know what these cubs has done to them so badly and so horribly that Rohingya people my retaliated this way. That is the story that we have been missing that we miss. And we can apologize enough that we were dumb enough to believe that story is it is a terrible half air story that we knew we totally missed the first part of it, which is the most important part. We just know, GE retaliated. And we don't know what actually caused you to do this. So it for you know, the whole Burmese people we are sorry. This is we can't stress this enough how sorry, we are and how sad we are for actually believing this side of the haunter.
Host 1:28:39
Right, right. And one of the interesting things that you hear the one to say is that to justify their rule is that they are the only institution capable of unifying and uniting the country behind them. And of course, the ironic feature there is that they're absolutely correct, except they have united the entire country against them. So that's how they've been able to unite the country, not under them, but against them. And you're really seeing the features of a bully. I mean, a bully relies on brute force and strain to the bullies, often weak, inside or insecure is not so intelligent or strategic. But it's just doing the same strategies over and over and over that just rely on brute force. And the way to meet a bully is to not choose their field of battle, because they're probably going to win with that brute force, but to find some other kind of tactic to engage, which sounds like you're doing in terms of when they're responding with brute force, what the counter response is, and certainly I did see a few weeks ago was quite inspiring when you were watching them do those same strategies of inserting agitators into the crowd who looked like protesters and then were violent and then the people around them soon realizing that they were not actually correct protesters and detaining them and Not allowing them to do that harm. And then other times they were, you know, famously, they they sent fake monks, they took criminals and they shaved their heads, and they put robes on them, and they sent them into neighborhoods to do harm to poisoned water and burned down houses. And someone explained on an earlier podcast, there was a hope that the residents might be so angered by what happened that they would abuse and beat these fake monks. And then there would be images that was soon spread of residents looking like they were, you know, lay residents that were looking like they were beating and harming monks, members of the song gone, that would decrease the support overall of the protest movements EDM, of course, that didn't happen, they detained these monks without harming them, they just did what they could to be able to, to handcuff them with whatever rope or something they had. And those images never got out because they did not fall, you guys did not fall into that trap of responding with violence, as many people would in situations that were that terrible and terrifying. And you're also describing how does non violent attitude is coming from a number of different backgrounds, it's coming from one just being smart in terms of how you deal with bullies, and how you deal with specific bullies who have a certain track record going back previous years and decades. So that's one reason why the non violence strategies being engaged in other is that you simply can't win. Whatever violence would bring to bear whatever rage one would want of going and attacking these Armed Forces, you're not going to win. So it's just strategy. Another reason is this realization that you have been characterized as a brutal violent people, and by ironically enough by actions that the military was the one that did and spread that propaganda. And so you're not engaging in that violence, to be able to try to change the narrative. And from other conversations I've had on the podcast, with practitioners with protesters that have come from a deeply Buddhist meditative background, they've also referenced parts of the religion, parts of the teachings, why they're engaging the way they are. So there's a number of reasons why this background of nonviolent protest has been occurring up to this point, although some do think we're at a breaking point. And we could very well be past that breaking point, by the time this podcast comes out every day is changing so much on the ground. So we don't know what the future is going to bring. But we do know where we are now. So at this juncture in time with how you're feeling Where do you think we are at the current state of the nonviolent movement? Do you think it can or should be sustained? And if not, what do you feel the next step should or might be for whatever you're comfortable in sharing? And obviously, there's, there's certain things that you would not want to share about certain planning or preparation going on? But for whatever you're comfortable sharing, where do you think we're at in terms
Coco 1:32:58
to, to be perfectly honest, we are, it seems to be that it's a bit past this point of non violence, but we are somewhere trying to retain this and violence strategy. We're not you know, starting the offensive just yet, the there's this timing that we're all waiting for, because we have to be clever about this, because it's not the colonial days, where you use musket to shoot at people. Now. This is the submachine guns and machine guns, we're talking about these, we're going up against people who are not afraid to bombas if they wanted to have without the help, or pressure from the international community, they have been also, you know, using a lot of air supports and bombing the crap out of all the kitchen and CIM people in the past to during the Civil War, or what they call was Civil War. So we have to be clever about this. We just, we can't just go up and start the offensive just yet. So CRP, H and Dr. Sasa have already told us and the international community that we have the right to defend ourselves. But of course, there's even today there's a debate still going on how much of a degree that we can defend ourselves. So we are trying to defend ourselves by setting up barricades and each and every single stream we can think of to hold their advances. So that ninth grade happens less than before, so that you know they just can drive their truck into a street and grab whatever people they want to go and then the parents to come pick up the body the very next day. And even as of today, a lot of these cases has been happening. Not a lot less than before, but it is still happening. So We are not going to keep up this non violence for long. And we already had rumors and news that the the hunter, we have an on 27 March, we have armed force day. Or, you know, in the honor of Dumbledore, our first day coming up. And we have heard news that the hunter has order all of his security forces to complete this coup by the end of March or before the that this fourth day happens. And maybe he wants to put out a statement on that special day of his I guess. So. If violence from their side, will be escalating pretty soon. And even yesterday, there were a lot of shootings and uses of machine guns and submachine guns in, in, in what seems to be On Belay and down G. So we are past the point of non violence to a degree, but we're still defending, we are still defending we are not going to attack just yet. That's not like a barbarian, by the way, we are used adapting all of the store strategies to defend ourselves by the use of Shields and some weapons and our slingshots and things that we can find. And before we waiting for is the timing, because if we have to, you know, play an offensive, we have to be united. Because all we don't really have guns, what we have is the strain the number just you know, people with very basic weaponry light source and slingshot, so is just the timing that we are waiting for. And agasa has also warned us that we have to defend yourself, defend or ally us with whatever we can find. So this is what we're doing right now. And we're not really sure how long we can keep this up.
Host 1:37:10
Right. Right. And I want to ask a follow up question based on that. That's personal, again, because you've described overall in the movement, where people stand with non violence and the strategy and where we might be moving to. And I assume that you like me is probably very seldom if ever gotten to any kind of fight or alteration, you know, even going back to early childhood years, you know, more than just kind of pushing people in the school yard or something. And being both of us being adults now I and growing up and living in civilized society, according to certain conventions and rules, the idea of committing planning violence against another individual or carrying that out seeing the effect by one's own hand. I imagine it's, it's, well, it's unimaginable for for most of us coming from that background. And yet, you're in a situation where the what was not so long ago and imaginable now becomes a serious reality to consider. So internally and personally, how are you managing to reconcile that possible shift and transformation?
Coco 1:38:26
Well, personally, I can't say for sure yet, though, but because I'm a doctor. And I'm not talking about ultra anything, you know, oats are out of the window now with people like these. So what I'm talking about is I am a medical personnel. So my compatibility on the front lines are very limited, if I may say so. But a lot of the doctors like as we have decided to go up to the front line, if that's what is needed of us whether or not we can actually you know, harm or harm somebody after the point of killing them is yet to be seen. But a lot of the doctors and a lot of people are very angry right now, I'm not sure if it is intention, if it is, you know, being taunted in intentionally by the hunter or things but a lot of the news you may have seen today that 50 years old kid were shot and died on the spot while he was fetching a snag for his mother. Today, there are a lot of news like these, and you may have heard that an engineer kid was arrested during the nightfall and arch to get his body back the very next morning so yes, we are not above killing anyone now. We could and you may have seen one of the article written by One of respect a surgeon, we all, we all respect the surgeon, he said, If I can save a lot more people by putting down my scalpel and picking up a gun and start shooting, I would and that was his word. And I would say, all of us are feeling exactly like that right now. So if we can save a lot of people by picking up a gun, and you know, dropping down putting down a stat though or syringe or whatever the hell we are helding right now we would, as we're at the boiling point, right now, there's so personally, that is what I am feeling right now, even though when the real time comes, whether or not if I'm capable of that is yet to be seen. I want to go back
Host 1:40:47
to what you said a little bit ago, you were describing just the cruelty of this military and of the, you know, beating people to death, aiming for the head, targeting medics, all these other kinds of real egregious breaks, even in wartime conventions. And I want to ask you what might be somewhat of an unfair question. It's certainly one that I wouldn't know how to approach or answer. But I'm curious what your thoughts are on it, because you've been faced with this day after day. And so you've certainly have had to try to understand the madness and the senselessness of it? And that question is, why are they doing this? Why are these professional military giving and following orders to target and terrorize their own people? How do you make any sense out of what is going on, if you can make sense of it?
Coco 1:41:45
Well, on the top of my head, I think it's because because of the institution and how the military was formed, I think the long history of Army and the core of it was the fascism. It's as long as the history but our more this modern military, the army was formed by General unsend, during the English colonial age, when General onsen had and his 30 trusted men had to went to Japan to learn the ways of war, and started forming the army. And they were do they were learning this way of war, while Japan was still adopting fascism. So if you really think about it, in the core, the heart of our military or not our this military, Hunter military, is the fascism. And another thing is, is the common knowledge to everyone in our country that how their institution actually operates. So they have this hierarchy, things that the seniors, whatever your seniority is, during the institution. For example, since I'm in medical school, I'm going to give you the Military Medical School as an example, it is called a DS Ma, to really load the long form is, so in this medical institution of the military, it's common knowledge that this senior can actually in their word, quote, unquote, punish their juniors in any way that they can, if they see you know, if they deem fit. And this form of punishment can be, you know, anything like, it could be physically or brutalizing each other like, symbol form of a Jew, you there just, you know, drop down and give me 50 to like, brutalizing, like punching them in the face or wherever they want. And this punishment, this brutalizing or bullying were so severe at some point that some of the juniors actually die from this beating up from the seniors. And these seniors actually got away with actually murdering someone and bullying someone. And that's, that's how these institutions actually operate. You know, if the juniors die from from getting beat up, and that is it, they don't refill, they don't really, you know, take consequences for their action. Maybe they get the detention for like a week or something. Sometimes even less, they got away with even less, even if they brutalized or bullying somebody to the point that somebody died. So coming so you know, this brutality coming from the people with institutions and mindsets like that is not really that surprising, if you ask me. So another thing is even on Social media nowadays, like, there's two worlds torn apart on social media as people who are trying to revolve and you know, go through this revolution, and there are people, you know, with their military background, or people who openly or secretly supporting the army, they think they think this cube is the right thing to do. And this, this haunter, and the military is actually saving us saving us saving the country from falling into the wrong hands. And by, you know, in order to do that they think of firing at people, you know, shooting people is the necessary thing to do. And you can even hear some of it on some of the video clips that are online right now that are whenever they arrested or capture somebody users. Especially, you know, they actually disperse the doctors protests and young go when they arrested a lot of the young kids there, you know, medical students there, you can even hear it in the video clips. Like, they were like, okay, so ju doctor used to be a doctor, in his word used to be doctors started this thing. That's why people started this nonsense, EDM movements. So you guys are responsible for it. So if you do something stupid, again, I'm going to shoot you and I am doing this for your sake. And your for your own good. And I'm doing this because you guys get out of line. So in order to get you back into the line, we are not hesitate to shoot you and some of the soldier even say, We are here to shoot you and get you into line. And I came all the way from Rakhine State to do this. They were openly saying that he was so proud of the fact that they're actually you know, shooting at people gives them some sort of pleasure or something like that. It's like, he was probably saying, I came all the way back from Rakhine, where I was deploy to this big city, and shooting edu to get you back into line there was so proud of saying that. And that is the kind of that the people and the soldiers that we are dealing with here. And even on the social medias though, the people who support the military, they also support the fact that it is fair to kill people shoot at us and what in their words, what they say is, if you don't go out on the street, you're not going to get shot, you get shot, people are getting shot at and dying, because you go out on this tree. So if you don't want to die, don't go out on the street, it is that simple. And they're openly saying it on the social media. It's so horrible.
Host 1:47:46
Right then and of course, that's not true, because people are being shot while staying in their own homes, and they're being shot by going to buy groceries. But you know, it's still I think it's so valuable, what we're saying that we have to understand the mentality of the other side, to just stand back and demonize them and look at it from our perspective is true is that seems we're not really going to get somewhere until we understand why it's making sense to them, no matter how twisted it is, we have to make that effort. And that's what I appreciate that you're doing here you're describing this institutional culture borrowed from tau Joe's Imperial Japanese Army and World War Two, which trained the founders of the tama da, which is a institutional culture that you're describing still exists today, not only among soldiers, but also even among medical staff within the military of seniors that are able to freely haze and even encourage abuse of juniors and people within that institution that are not just allowed and permitted, but actually encouraged as a kind of value or virtue of the institution to abuse although we would use that word they might not those that are not, quote unquote, in line that are outside of that institution. And so you're describing this, this mindset that is really difficult to understand, but appreciate trying to bring it there for our examination of believing that they have to actually beat people to death and shoot people in the head and terrorize. And that in their minds, somehow this is bringing some kind of good to the country. Right. So I don't even know where to begin how to make sense of that. I guess I'll follow that up with I preface this by saying my previous question was unfair, and maybe my next question will be even more unfair. But you did so well. With the first one see how you can do with this one is, you know, this Platform Podcast we before the coup we traditionally focused more on Buddhist topics on meditation on Burmese Buddhism, tracing people's spiritual journeys in the country, foreigner as well as As Burmese monastic, including lay as well. And so we still have a wide range of audience that are coming from a practitioner base. And one of the things that is so confusing to them, especially foreign practitioners that are engaged in the passion of meditation or Buddhist practice or ordination of some kind, is how can a country, a country that is so steeped in Buddhist practice and belief, and that has had meditation masters from the 19th and 20th centuries that have really inspired and propelled the entire mindfulness and meditation movements that we're seeing today all over the West, this all came from, from Myanmar from these great teachers that many of whom and current generation are still living in teaching today. How can this country that is so steeped in Buddhist ideals give rise to a military, which is pretty much top to bottom? All throughout Buddhists, certainly the top leadership, we identify as Buddhist, whatever, however, they interpret that as meaning whatever strain of their Buddhism is, but in describing this institutional culture that you have, how is it reconciled with a Buddhist belief of leadership and of soldiers? When it seems like the contrast between this could never be greater?
Coco 1:51:19
Well, I think there's sort of like old saying in this military is that killing people while you're trying to protect your country and his constitution is the right thing to do is not a sin. In in Burmese, what is called shape or the date on a Mullah, which roughly translates to as if you die as a soldier while protecting your country, you will never go to hell. So I think they sort of believe that kind of thing whenever they are go out on a battlefield. And another thing is, we we used to have too big as political power and political party, and in Myanmar, which is an oldie are our double kradic Lee elected people. And another thing is usdp. And these are mostly funded, and people with only military backgrounds or military supporters are in these political party. Everyone knows that. And they're their basic selling points, you know, whenever they're going on and campaign. Even with the first election, their basic selling point is that military is actually protecting like protecting the religious and the religion and the culture and the Constitution of the country. They mostly pinpoint the fact that Dawson's Tucci husband is not of Burmese blood she, she's married to a foreigner and, and the propaganda whenever the propaganda that you can hear from is that because of us, as people, or letting someone with foreigner as my husband, to become president, or metta president or as a counselor, we are pushing the country over the edge, and we are breaking the country apart, we are throwing away the culture and the bloodline and the Buddhism was fall apart in the hands of the foreigners, you might even see on the cover of the time magazines that the face of British terror, you know, all were to face, and like four or five years back, and that's that's how they spread their propaganda. That's their selling point. So if you they openly said that if you vote for NLD you are trolling the country into the trash, you are destroying the bloodlines, you are destroying the religion and a lot of people a lot of people really care about the Buddhism, even though only half of us actually understand what it is and what it represents. But, you know, when you use propaganda and fake news like dad's some of the people actually believe it. And these these soldiers and the people who supporting the military, they actually believe seems to believe this propaganda that if we lead and LD and also switch to become a Madam President, or if they if we let them became the head of the state, then the religion the Buddhism would actually falls apart. She's going to start bringing in the foreigners from all over the country. The Rohingya, you know, and all the foreigners and people even say, dancers she was using Sean tonle and As our economical advisors, so they were actually pointing it out, see, foreigners are coming in now and they're going to take up all the resources and started selling the country to do whatever other countries and everything's gonna fall apart and military has the power to prevent it as their as their selling point.
Host 1:55:24
Right. That's the propaganda that they're giving. But of course, when we see the military in charge, I think some would argue with much evidence to support it that the military itself is one of the greatest threats to Burmese Buddhism at present to the entire saucer, now we're seeing Buddhist statues that are riddled with bullets, we're seeing monks that are imprisoned or silenced or sometimes killed. Now, as well as in 2007. We're seeing pagoda funds and monasteries who that are that are rated to be able to get the cash. And on and on, we're seeing teachings themselves that are being perverted through superstition and through astrology that have no connection to the scriptures. And so while this kind of mythology is given that they're the institution that can protect Buddhism, simultaneously, they're engaging in daily actions that are showing it to be the single greatest living threat to Burmese Buddhism, at least in my opinion. And so is that reality getting through to people because propaganda is a very, very insidious thing. And once a propaganda message gets instilled in someone's mind, it can literally prevent the reality of the news coming in. I mean, we see that in my country, we've seen it in the last five years of Trump and startling degrees that once some degree of propaganda is believed, then an alternative set of facts and reality supplant that and superimpose them on that. And even when the actual things that are happening around one in the country, they are minimized or dismissed or interpreted in different ways. So my question for you is, as the military is holding this propaganda less, while simultaneously, engaging in actions that show it as the greatest danger to the thing that it's reportedly trying to protect? Is that reality getting through to people that propaganda breaking down? Or is it being held up based on the strength of that messaging over many, many years?
Coco 1:57:28
I think they are trying to ignore these, the fact that military is actually destroying the Buddhism that we also preciously hold on to, and they're actually brutalizing bongs. And the re they have been reading Yes, a monasteries and vocoders for the cash grab. And as of today, we have been getting rumors that the Shwedagon Pagoda, which is the one of the treasure of our country, has been being stripped off. The goal on the pagoda has been being stripped off as of now. And these military supporters are actually the buying the stories that the military, the hunter is still telling that, that, you know, in the the word of the hunter, they're just actually, you know, quote unquote, borrowing money and this goal from the pagoda in order to save the country. Now, after everything's become peaceful, they are bound to give up with interests, quote, an end quote, in their words. So it's actually very, I don't know, shocking to see that these supporters are still believing in this fairy tales that these haunter has been telling. And they're, they're still, I don't know, they're some of them are ignoring the fact that they are brutalizing the monks. And they have actually arrested some of the monks and Dougie and as stripping him of his Hmong status, and putting him in court and in jail. So they are still spreading fake news as well, that they're, they're even telling that these moms are not real moms, they are just actors and spies, that, that us, you know, the people from this size are hired, are hiring to act as a monk or a nun or a priest, in fact, and that and even though we people on the social media tried to explain the real story to them, they just won't listen. And they just believe the fact that these are not real moms, researchers hire actors and the and the hunter is not stealing money from the decoders or they're not reading the plays. They're just borrowing the money and where everything's is said and done. They were they are going to you No, pay back the pagoda in interest. And they still believe that fact and is really appalling that they still believe these theory of fairytales these haunter has been telling.
Host 2:00:13
Right? So there's some segment of the population there just as there is in my country with some of the fantasies we see on the extreme right, that no matter what the military possibly engages in, no matter how egregious it is, the propaganda that they've drunk very deeply from, well prevent them from ever seen past what they want to ascribe to the military's intentions. And they're not going to get beyond that. And that is the power of propaganda to at least some segment, hopefully, a smaller segment of a population that believes that hook line and sinker. So we've been talking a bit about the military and military supporters, how about the monks were are and I know that that there's a lot of monks in the country. And there's a lot of different types of traditions and types of monasteries that are engaged in different activities and teachings. So we can't say a blanket statement. This is how the monks feel. It's obviously not monolithic. And we're seeing things across the board. But can you give us like a general temperature check him of what you're seeing and hearing about the monastic response in the past six weeks,
Coco 2:01:24
most of their monasteries and bonds has been peaceful, and as a lot of them has actually taking the side that is, in their words, rifle and truthful. And they have actually joined the revolution. And the top monks, the professors have actually joined and actually announced that they have joined the CDM movement against the will of the haunter. And before everything was peaceful, in Django, and there were a lot of monks who were actually giving away foods and watermelons and juices to all of the walking or as sitting protester or walking by protester. They were helping out in every way that they can, and they were actually giving away food, cooking food for us. And, and, and there were a lot of religious things, too, is like, chanting. And and we have this work, I don't know, what's the English word for it's a day turn where you where you vow that you are going to change or you're going to do this things for like, a designated set of days. So there's a day 10 for chanting this mantra of love medardo for like 1000 times or something and praying that the praying that the protester will be safe and peaceful, and they say, the right they always pray for the truth fold or the dry side to win and the Justice must prevail. That's how they have been joining and in Mandalay is it's more than that is not just you know, giving away or giving out food or helping a protester moms has been seen out in the street like walking and holding as signs said, they do not accept a military coop. And they won, they won also sued you to be freed again, and they want a democracy to be back into our country. They have been walking down the streets. And there were like hundreds of monks peacefully protesting out in the streets of Mandalay and town G and a lot of the other cities and places as well.
Host 2:03:44
Right. So you have some of the higher level monks who have taken a very public stand and ethical stand to resist the government takeover. And then you have other monks engaging everything from doing chanting and taking naughty tongue to chant a certain length of time or a certain number of times, and some that are going on to protest. What has been the response for this role. And then I should also mention we have the monks that are that are giving food to the protester. This is a complete reverse of what usually happens with protesters giving food to the monks, I saw someone online refer to this as rivers are running upstream. And so we have all these different types of engagement that the monastic community is taking, what has been the response from the military for these kinds of engagements with monks and have the monks also then putting themselves at risk or do they have any protection from the spiritual commitment that they've made and by wearing the robes
Coco 2:04:52
as far as I know, not so much actually. Aside from being getting shot at some of them Long's have been welcomed with tear gas while they were trying to stop the the security forces from harming or shooting at the protester. This, I think that was, I forgot the name of the car door, he was arrested, stripped of all the Hmong status and has been put in jail, and now will be put in COVID Penal Code 505, which is defaming of the dignity of the hunter something is roughly translate to that. Yes. And the thing is, if you are charged with a 505, a, you can bill out of the jail. It's one of the political penal code that this detector has been using time and again, in order to keep the political prisoners in prison forever. So some of the monks has been detained. And these top monks who have declared and has taken this ethical stance and joining the CDM movement, we have heard rumors that they have been put under house arrest, or want us to arrest in this case. So that's how the hunter has responded, actually. And they even try to win the favor of some of the military supporters from the moms by trying to give COVID vaccines to some of the moms as well. And I don't think they've, they've been winning any hearts at all by doing so.
Host 2:06:36
Right. So basically, they're silencing some of these top monks who have spoken out and taking away their platform from being able to speak further. And the status of some of the most revered monks right now is unknown, exactly what's going on with them. Looking on the other side, have there been monks who have been supportive of the military takeover? And how has that support been voiced? Or what kinds of actions have we seen to show that support? And what can you say about why they would lean on that side?
Coco 2:07:10
Well, we've heard rumors, those those news are unconfirmed because right now, the the monks and the people who are supporting the military are not doing so openly right now because they're scared of social punishment. So they're doing so in secrets, or they would just say they are neutral. You know, they're if someone says they are taking a neutral stance in a time like this is pretty sure they're taking the military side. So what we have is unconfirmed rumors that Didi goosey Otto have, has been supporting the military side and we we have informations to somehow believe that is because there there was news on social media as as monstrum, the DD coup monastery has been to has been joining the night protest while you know, protesting out on the streets of streets in front of the Diggle monastery with candles in their hands and praying. So aka joining the night protest, they have been doing so. And once the news got popular enough, they actually get back with this explanation that these monks are not actually from the monastery. These are just regular monks from other foreigners three who just happens to do the knife protests in front of the Tacoma industry. So in a way it's like casado is taking a neutral stance and he's not he's not actually joining the joining the haunter or, you know, supporting the revolution. So in that way, I think he has the, you know, in a way he's supporting the hunter in that way, I guess.
Host 2:09:00
Right. And traditionally, in Burmese Buddhist society, there's kind of this firewall between the lay supporters and the monastic community, living very separate lives, there's a reciprocal quality, but there's also very separate worlds in terms of their responsibilities and communities and how they're engaged. And, in particular, the lay community is very hesitant to want to offer any judgment of or criticism or critique of how monks are doing their business. It's just it's considered unseemly. It's considered bad karma. It's considered something that the monastic side should work out themselves and the wayside is just there to support them and to gain merit by offering them things and by listening to their discourses by learning spiritual guidance under them, but certainly never to be so arrogant as to think that one should criticize or offer judgment to someone from the master community. But we're living in very, very different times now. And it is literally a matter of life and death in terms of where even though the Manasa community is charged with not engaging in worldly affairs. They've renounced the world according to their religious vows. They do have some kind of moral and ethical stance that they can make at this time should they choose to. And so what are you seeing of that traditional relationship between ladies and monastics, is that traditional belief in karma and in the respect that ladies should have towards monastics that they should refrain from engaging in any kind of critiques? Is that still holding true today or have circumstances changed so fast and so rapidly, that some ladies are being a bit more courageous and having a bit more agency and critical thought, in being able to express their disappointment on one hand, or their appreciation on the other of how different monks or monasteries are engaging at this time?
Coco 2:10:54
Wow, it's a really hard question. I don't really know how to answer that. But um, well, they are some, like really famous, or I would say, a really old amongs, who have actually renounced the world and has been, you know, living in the jungle, like really secluded places and meditating years long. So they're actually monks like that. And one in particular, is mine pole car door. He has, he has actually renowned for world, renounce the world, and he has not taken any side, he's like, completely neutral. And he never showed any appreciation for the hunter, or this size. But he what he said was just, it's sad, to see that people are killing each other in this, and this time of age. And that that was his remark. And that was it. And, and what I'm trying to say is, they are monks like this, who take like, complete neutral stance, whatever the case is, whatever the issue is, whatever is going on in the world, there's a monk who have renounced all of it. So never take part in any of that. But what I'm what we are discussing right now, for example, with Diego, Seattle. He is taking a neutral stance right now. But in the past, there were a lot of things that he did that prove that he has not renounced the world of of these things. And these issues, he has actually meddled in a lot of the things like he's tried to make peace. When the Rohingya, Rohingya, you know, atrocity was going on. And there was a lot of hatred between the British people and the Muslims in the world and in the country as well. He has, he has time from time openly said that, how he support the how, how he appreciate that our military is still protecting the religious stance of the people and how the military is actually I don't know, still protecting the religious stands, and they're doing so so courageously, something like that. So when he said those things in the past, directly or indirectly, and now he is taking a neutral stance, so in my opinion, it's somehow conflicting to his ideals for something.
Host 2:13:34
Right, right. So there's a lot more questions I could ask you. But we are literally running at the very end of your internet capability there because and probably also your own health, because you're, you've had one long day after another and you've been so kind to stay up until five minutes before 1am. When your internet is about to shut off, and you're about to go to bed to prepare for another day, you actually referenced that you were supposed to be on nightwatch. Tonight, this is something that everyone has to do, unfortunately, and your community now to protect your community against the military incursions that can come in any time but you were able to trade your slot to be able to come and join us. So really appreciate you being able to do that and share your voice and use this platform to give your perspective. Before we close out, I would just like to offer you a chance to be able to express whatever you would like to the foreign community that's listening in. Especially a question that many of them have, which is what can they do now many people listening feel quite helpless, quite concerned about what's going on. But from the safety and the freedom of their own homes and their own countries don't necessarily know what they can do or how they can engage. So how would you speak to that for those that are caring about this? What can they do that would make a difference in the struggle for freedom that you and others are leading right now?
Coco 2:14:58
Well wouldn't So that was the same answer that I always giving, and all of us are always giving the same answer. That is that every little bit helps. Even your voice, like speaking out for the truth, and every little voice help and even as, as financially or, or raising awareness in your area or in your neighborhood or in your community, it's, it's just one voice right now. But if you do speak up and raise awareness, a lot of people will started joining. And give, for example of Korea, right now, they have been raising a lot of awareness, because we are in the same page of history that they were once used to be in, they were raising a lot of awareness, there were a lot of presentations, and stories and on street protesting and praying for Jamar to gain back democracy in South Korea. So you can do something like that, too. So don't feel helpless, you know, sometimes you don't leave leave there too. So please do speak out. And because by speaking out, for us, you can actually pressure the international community. And it has a really damaging effect on the hunter and his connection, because right now he's trying to run the country. There's nobody accepting it, so he can't really run it. And we're pretty sure he's broke right now. So because he's, you know, actually stealing goals or monies from the pagoda. So, what we are trying is we are trying to cut off all the heads of this snake. So what you can actually do is try to pressure the international communities and the the wild companies and you know, other business companies to stop there connection at all, any kind of connection, you know, kind of all the connections with a hunter, so that we can we actually have the chance of winning this. So every time you speak out every time, you know somebody stopped trading with a hunter, you are actually stopping these people from buying the bullets that are killing his own people. So please do speak out. Keep an eye on us. And just like we were protecting the last the next seven days, this we will be the dark as of as all because by 27, the Armed Forces Day in our country, we have heard rumors that the hunter will will, you know, try to finish his coop will try to successfully complete this coop. So the brutality and the cruelty will be escalating soon. So and he is not above cutting off all the internet connections again. So please do speak up. Keep an eye on us. And let me remind you that no news is bad news for us. So if we go like radio silent, and there's no more news from us, please try to look out for us. And we really appreciate it in this time of need.
Host 2:18:04
Yeah, those are powerful words. And we we definitely encourage those listening. If you found this interview and other interviews like this valuable, please share them to your networks, please inform your local communities so that more people can be informed so much of the help that you can do is just simply being informed and knowing what's happening. That's so much of the battle right there. Beyond that, as Coco said, if you are able to petition local companies or politicians if you're able to give a donation after this interview, we'll be giving information about how you can donate to get it directly to the needs of Coco's team and what he's doing as well as the overall CDM movement. And also not to underestimate emotional support. As much as you can just make your voice heard that you are standing with the people that are struggling for freedom with their backs against the wall, not feeling any support from anywhere, just knowing that somewhere in some distant place, that they are in your camp that they have your back, even if it's virtually that can mean a tremendous amount as well. So with that, Coco, I are minutes away from your internet being shut off. Really appreciate the time that you've taken. It's just been extraordinary to hear from you and be safe and be well and we're with you.
Coco 2:19:19
Okay. Thanks, everyone. And thanks for the listener and thanks for giving me the chance to you know, speak my mind here.
Host 2:19:31
After today's discussion, it should be clear to everyone just how dire the situation is in Myanmar. We are doing our best to shine a light on the ongoing crisis. And we thank you for taking the time to listen. If you found today's talk of value, please consider passing it along to friends in your network. And because our nonprofit is now in a position to transfer funds directly to the protest movement, please also consider letting others know that there is now a way to give that supports the most vulnerable and to those Who are specially impacted by this organized state terror. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. every cent because immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. 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And I also invite you to take a look at our new nonprofit organization at better burma.org. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a POST request specific questions and join in on discussions currently going on. On the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You're also most welcome to follow our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter accounts by the same name. If you're not on social media, feel free to message us directly at info at Insight myanmar.org. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that form here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible. Currently, our team consists of two sound engineers, Mike pink and Martin combs. 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