Transcript: Episode #45: The End Justifies the Memes
Following is the full transcript for the interview with May and Brad, which appeared on April 9, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:22
You're listening to a special version of the Insight Myanmar podcast covering the military coup and the ensuing protest movement that has developed during this crisis, we're ramping up the production of not only podcast episodes, but also our blog and other social media platforms. So we invite you to check these out as well. All the other projects that had been in progress prior to February, have since been paused, and definitely to focus entirely on this emergency. But for now, let's get into our show.
01:14
Good day, hey, by the way,
01:21
a good day.
Zach 01:49
This is a continuation of our current events as recovered the events happening in Myanmar at the moment. And I have with me two special guests that are covering a particularly unique angle of the protests, memes of all things. So I have with me, Brad, and may. That's all I want to say. And these are not their real names that we're using pseudonyms for. For safety. So but nonetheless, Brad, and may I welcome the two of you. So yeah, let's get into this. This is quite interesting. I think the whole phenomenon of means in the first place is interesting. And then I think it's quite peculiar, and particular and fascinating, the creative ways mean to being used in the protests at the moment. So but maybe we could start with may like, what are your ideas on? What do you think a meme is? Like? I mean, I think everyone has seen memes before, but like, what is a meme to you? And what role does it play in general in culture? Do you think it especially for the generation, that's really, you know, engaged in, in social media?
May 02:57
Absolutely. So I mean, for me, is something that would possibly portray something that's funny, obviously, but also something that would make fun of this situation that's possibly very episode. We're the generation that has grown up with internet and social media. And memes are a way to communicate with each other, to share not just jokes, but also feelings. And a Burmese community has almost made news for almost any situations. So yeah, means are, perhaps a symbol of what our generation is.
Zach 03:46
It's interesting that often there'll be an image and the words that go with it are often not from that same image or category, right? They'll just throw in, often, it can be a sarcastic remark, or something funny, and it's the expression on the characters face. There's that immediate recognition of the character and the context. And often there's some funny in about, like, what they're saying versus who they are. And then often, there's even another meaning about the whole package together in the context of where the means being dropped in to the conversation, or the or the chat or the thread or whatever it might be. And may you're saying in Myanmar culture, and it's quite it's quite a popular phenomenon quite deeply woven into the the younger generations culture. Is that right?
May 04:32
Yes, definitely. Ever since I've been on social media. We have this Facebook groups where people would make memes about anything that was happening. Would there be an advertisement that was particularly funny, and that sort of reminded them of something, they would make a meme out of that or an actress doing something controversial and they wouldn't make a meme out of that i think we tend to share whatever is happening and it's really really interesting how an image or a short clip of the you have a lot of meaning behind it and how just a glance towards his could explain all that
Zach 05:22
right right is that just an expression of feeling like something like an emoticon it says actually quite a bit more than that and it's also seems to target a certain group of people that that have this like you guys have said this shared common experience well another place that we all share we all share a common experiences we all have a different relationship with with at but we have all have a relationship with myanmar i mean may obviously you you live there and and so the current events are actually quite heartbreaking but i would like to hear from you like how how you know like when it first came out how did it affect you and and yeah how did how does it sit with you what arose like
May 06:08
it's been really exhausting i guess that's the only valid word that i could use to describe how i've been feeling i was shot but i wasn't exactly shocked because perhaps perhaps i've been expecting it right but it's i've been angry i've been frustrated there's this sort of will incite me to just go out and scream and just just dispose the military it's a very hard feeling to describe but it arose this feeling inside me that i didn't know existed perhaps it's the nationalism perhaps it's patriotism but i do not know what it is but i've been ignite insight
Zach 07:08
cry i think i think it's definitely something i can't relate to i don't i think when you explain things i kind of can i can kind of touch into it but i've never lived in i've never lived under a dictatorship i've never gone from that to freedom and then and then have that being at risk of being all lost again i can't really imagine i can kind of try to imagine what that feels like but what's this the response to spots to it from like several generations is like not that this is just unacceptable but we cannot go back to that and what i mean by cannot go back to that not just as a stance but like people would rather some people would rather die than go back to what was before and people are actually seeing that like verbally and showing it like like so it seems like every time the the army pushes a push back including even after people have died that it's not having the effect the army hoped it would have and and the people are stating even stronger the more you hurt it's like i will not go back to what was before and i just want to like what do you feel in that and like what sense of that arises in you and yeah if you can speak to that in any way
May 08:32
absolutely when i said there's something that's ignited inside of me it's that feeling that feeling says cannot happen and that i would do anything for this country i never viewed myself as nationalistic or i've never viewed myself as patriotic as a patriot but i wouldn't want to see my country in shackles again and if i would have to die tomorrow to achieve that if i do have like it's for certain that it's going to happen i would not be afraid to die but that's the i do also know that that's something that that's just not my personal feelings i know that a lot of people feel the same way we've seen how we've been pulled back from society we've been economically damaged we've been put into shackles i think with the younger generation we spend half of our life under the dictatorship and the other half in a pseudo democracy so i think the contrast for us was very stark And the sort of ignite a lot of extreme feelings inside us.
Zach 10:08
And so the the contrast is quite stark for you guys. It's it's half of this and half of that. So it's, it's interesting it hits you guys quite strong and you guys have had absolutely a big percentage of your life in this. You said pseudo democracy right? And I think that's honest, it's it wasn't perfect and and the military actually still held quite a bit of power there yet there's still an obvious, obviously there was a difference between that and, and this or at least if there's not a difference, it's it's clear that this is the opposite direction. So yeah, what is it about that, you know, like, how is it the same or different between your generation and other generations, I do see a lot of other generations. Even if they participate in different ways, they seem to be just as adamant. I've seen memes and pictures of old people saying, I will die right here. And now. If the UN needs a body count, in order to get involved, I will sacrifice my life right here, I refuse to go back. This is from 60 to 70 year old. So what do you have to say about like the cooperation between the different feelings? The feelings might not be exactly the same from generation to generation? But what is the shared sense? Do you think in the in the population in general,
May 11:25
I think the shared sense would be that it's something that we always say, which is a year while I army, which basically means the revolution was when revolution must be must be successful. I think that's the name most like shared feelings among different generations. I think I cannot speak for other generations, but I do believe a lot of us do share a lot of the same feelings that we will resist against the cool. And we will this is against military rule.
Zach 12:10
And you mentioned the word Patriot, which, in a lot of places in a lot of countries, you know, the government and the military, and they kind of act, often in unison, and patriotism means to support both and hear you're making clear delineation between, you know, the being a patriot for the country. And not including the the army and the coup in that in this particular instance.
May 12:37
When I say patriotic, I do not stand for its government. I'm standing for the people, I'm standing for the country. And I think this is the sense that I have been like, I just recently discovered it myself a feeling of loving the people of your country and loving your country so much that it physically hurts. I think it's the sense of Oh, no, we're going back to this again. When you've sort of had high hopes about everything. Um, I think the day the coup happens, I felt like my future was stolen. I had hoped that maybe perhaps we're moving towards that old mark, the more credit country and things will be fine. In a few that gets, but I think we've basically step back a lot more that gets back then we'll be going forward.
Zach 13:54
It just makes so much sense at a higher level.
13:59
Thanks.
14:02
Freedom and
Zach 14:05
all the hope. They're trying to pull out from under you, the whole country, the all the people. And I think it's really fascinating to call that you know, to say, patriotism at this moment, is standing up for the mass population. And the mass population is at war with their own government, or the people that are claiming the government, the real government that was elected, this is still exists. It's just being incarcerated right now.
May 14:39
I think it's the sense of getting your voices ripped to add. Basically, you do not have freedom from fear anymore. You live in fear. And that's where it hurts the most that you will have to live with. for the rest of your life you have to be fearful of what's going to happen to you you cannot really speak out you cannot really do anything i think that's the sense of frustration and loss that i've experienced that i can personally talk about
Zach 15:24
what's fascinating is there is at the same time i mean you're you're the second guest i've talked to today that is expressed that exact thing that the fear the fear of being present in our lives coming back that we don't want to live with this and there's also though at the same time and anyone that's following what's going on there's a whole lot of courage so do you think there's a relationship between that loss of freedom the rise of fear and then like where's that courage coming from what do you think
May 16:09
for me personally i think the courage comes from my as i've mentioned my patriotism my love for the people in the country and that i feel responsible for at least helping the country and it also comes from this idea of we have nothing to lose that would we rather sacrifice this or live our lives and the future generations on this we're doing this for the future generation as
16:53
well
May 16:54
let us be the last generation to have lived under a military dictatorship and know what it felt like let our kids and grandchildren that we will have not as well
Zach 17:09
and brad you also have a relationship with Myanmar and so this is affecting you as well and i'd like to hear a little background on your relationship with Myanmar
Brad 17:18
so i actually for most of my life i didn't even know that the country existed to be completely honest like a lot of foreigners don't really think about it and i took a burmese language course many many years ago at university just out of interest and out of curiosity and and i found it fascinating actually the person who taught me is is now studying burmese politics in reasonably high levels of academia now so we didn't just get the language education we also got the cultural context and the history of it and i just found the the stories i was hearing really fascinating and really interesting and the country just sort of stayed in the back of my mind and i you know i didn't i didn't have any super serious plans to have a visit but then years went by i was doing study i was finishing up a postgraduate qualification and i didn't really know what i wanted to do with with my life and and i sort of ended one thing that didn't go particularly well and i was sort of standing around one day at university i just made an offhanded comment to someone saying well you know if you know anyone who's offering positions in burma you know why not and someone seriously turned to me and said i do i do actually know someone who's starting a business there and and she's in the city right now and we can set up a meeting and do that and i met with this woman and she seemed nice and trustworthy and and she started saying well you know if you want to come you can come for three months you can come for six months we can we can work something out you can work for us and i thought okay that's kind of could be cool could be interesting but you know i went on i went on a trip elsewhere and something that i was i was planning on something that really had my heart set on failed phenomenally and and so i i found myself you know in a really sort of low point and i was talking with this burmese woman who was offering me this job and i just thought you know what you know what reason do i have not to take this opportunity right now and and i said look i really don't particularly care what the pay is i really don't think she was going to give me a commendation she was going to give me you know support staff who could help me and translate things so she was giving me a very generous network not not just money the money was not great but the network the support that he was offering was really generous and i thought that's that's a really good thing for me to do right now and i went for for three months. This was a number of years ago. And you know, I spent about three years in the country on and off. I've been out of the country for for you know a while now. But I've still maintained my my connections with with my friends in Yangon, both Burmese and expats. And, you know, my work relationships and and I have a girlfriend there and my life is effectively there, you know, I'm not there now, but I was planning to go back and then COVID hit so well, okay, we can't go back because of COVID. And then it wasn't COVID it's there are no flights. And now the coup has happened. And I don't know when I'm going to be able to return it. It's very distressing to me to be outside of the country, and seeing my friends who are there sending me these posts and sending me these messages of you know, the Facebook video or live feeds of the police, you know, just randomly firing at crowds or opening fire at night in in dark alleyways and breaking down doors and dragging old women off to prison or indiscriminately beating up, you know, children and things like that. It's horrendous. And I think a lot of the expat community who for whatever reason are not in the country right now. Have this sense of almost a sense of I would call it survivor's guilt, this, this sort of sickening feeling that you can't do anything, you can't help in any, in any measurable way. But at the same time, you're, you're seeing it like this is this is no like, you know, if we're if we're watching footage coming from a country that we don't have any connection to, and we say, Oh, that's so terrible, it's awful, I hope something happens to fix it. It's different when it's friends of yours crying on the phone, saying, you know, they, they burst into the apartment next two hours, and they dragged somebody off, and we don't know where they are now. Or saying like, Oh my god, you know, I've spent all day watching the footage of of people, you know, being shot down in the street, and they can't handle it, they can't take it like you feel like you want to be there, you want to find some way to help and connect with it. But you're not because you're far away, and you're safe. And it feels inherently wrong somehow.
Zach 22:11
Right. And then, somehow, though, the two of you did come together and do something about it. And so it obviously affects a song and the two of you have actually decided to put a very interesting Facebook page together. And the theme is around the the means of the protest. And perhaps you could actually say that, the name of it and then talk like to hear from both of you about like, what, how you came up with the idea and why what it is that's important about and why you know what role it plays you think in in the protest movement, and why it's important to share those into whichever audiences to other Myanmar people or to the people outside of Myanmar looking in. And following. I think it's, it's fascinating, I looked at your page, and I'm just stepping back just a second, I'm just amazed at how I mean, I have this gut feeling of the gravity of the situation at the same time that not just the courage of the kids, I think there's a there's a general way to go about protesting and strikes that we all kind of expect. And in addition to all of that it's a non violent movement. And we've seen that before in the world. And I think people are inspired by that. In addition to that, there's a lot of creativity in in that I mean, there's just an evolution and a new way of of adding the next generation of creativity towards a protest towards and this is the real deal. This isn't just, hey, we want to change a law here and there. This is like the whole country's at stake. And, and, and standing up against the army is like putting lives at stake and in the face of that there's been so much creativity, including these means. But anyways, I'd like to hear about how, how this idea to put this page together came about and why think it's important and what you think these in general, what these mean, say what roles they play.
Brad 24:29
So I think I'll, I'll start on that one. Just because I so I actually started the page by myself originally and made joined not too much longer after that recommended by a mutual friend of ours who who knew that you know, she had a very valuable skill set with regard to that which which I do not. So, so Okay, so the page that we have have the full name of the page because I was not going for anything particularly subtle or catchy is protein. Sorry, Burmese protests means and signs translated unexplained. But if you if you search for the handle is just at Burmese dot protested means. So I started that would have been I think officially Facebook recorded the first post is going up on the 19th of February, something like that. I started Yeah, I started on like Thursday night the 18th. But it was already Friday morning by the time I posted so that the page has not been online particularly long. In all honesty, it's it's been what is that a week and a half now. And it's grown reasonably quickly. The idea actually came from one of the first memes that that was published. You know, I had a lot of Burmese friends and my girlfriend translating a lot of means that I was seeing I was seeing all these really interesting signs. And there's a there's actually a page called subtle Burmese dating, which is a sort of, sort of like Tinder, but not like Tinder, it's a Facebook page for for meeting people. But a lot of means in there as well. And, and I happened to be a member of the page, so we're seeing a lot of means coming through that page. And I happened to be a member of a lot of other Burmese pages. So I saw these really funny memes and signs that everyone was laughing at. And everyone was having a good time. And with my very primitive Burmese, I was able to pick out some bits, I was able to get maybe the gist of it. But I couldn't understand the joke, right. And so I had to have other people translate and explain it to me. And simultaneously. When I was online, I saw some people, Western people who criticized the English language signs that the Burmese protesters were using. And this is something I saw multiple times where they said, Well, this the sign is in English. Therefore, it's either photoshopped, or it's been staged in some way, shape or form. They were saying, well, the either the Burmese being Asians don't know English, which is a phenomenal misunderstanding of history, but whatever. Alternatively, there was saying, Well, why would the Burmese people protesting against the Burmese military be protesting in the English language? Clearly, it must be fake. And, and I thought, you know, I responded in a couple of cases saying it's not fake, but you don't see the Burmese content, which is which is plentiful, and is far more innovative and interesting than the English language content, but you don't see it because media companies aren't going to pick it up. Because who would click on that you don't know what it says it's not shocking. It's vibrant. So the whole idea came from one of the first posts we made, which was the husband and wife, roads. And there were a series of protest signs that long haul truckers had painted on the sides of their trucks. And one of them literally translated to, I don't want to go back to driving on husband and wife pan roads. And, and that was absolutely nonsensical. And so my girlfriend had to explain to me that, well, first of all, husband and wife is actually the name of a snack that's made of two halves of dove fuse together. And yet so so there's this sort of dimpled type of pan to a Western like it would be similar to the little Dutch. Perfect, yep, pancakes that people are familiar with, made of hemispheres. And so to two Burmese speakers, it was immediately obvious what a husband and wife pan is. It's it's the dimpled iron pan that you make this snack in and, and saying husband and wife pan road, immediately put people in mind of raw so riddled with potholes that they look like a dimpled iron pan that you would make for street food, immediately obvious to the Burmese even though this is not an existing idiom. This is just a new phrase that this trucker had designed to express his his concerns as obviously someone who drives a lot. But to me it also cider.
Zach 28:56
Yeah. It also just is basically saying that when the when the military is in charge, they don't use any of the money that they make, as a government to to pay for the needs of the people like like the quality of the roads. Absolutely. And lots of other things as well. So in that little statement, it's just you unpack it, it's it says so much, right?
Brad 29:17
Well, that because that goes back to what I was saying about means it's taking things from the past that we all experienced, and we all remembered, and it's it's wrapping up in a package with something from from the modern era. So to the Burmese people, it was like, Well, yes, obviously, we all remember that, that the funds set aside for road maintenance were routinely, you know, skimmed by the military for lining their own pockets, or whatever the case may be. And it's just an in joke at this point, that the roads were in horrendous, dangerous condition onto the military. And, and I do remember actually being up towards the center of the country, in the dry region, and the huge support for the NLD in that region. And I remember but like talking to the taxi driver and one of the things he said was well since the nld have been elected they've been building roads and they've been paving roads and that was something that was very important to them very significant to them and then a very visible sign of our local government actually investing in infrastructure what a shocking contract like this despite any other problems that they may have had with the government it was a it was a thing that they were really really really appreciative of so to the burmese audience not only did they understand the imagery not only do they understand what that snack is not only do they understand you know these problems but they understood the history that the honda have specifically with road maintenance and it took my girlfriend at least half an hour to explain this one sign and bernie's to me and i just thought that is phenomenal that someone can capture that and i called a friend of mine i explained this to him and he said back to me like that is amazing like it would have meant nothing to me before but now you've explained that that's really cool so it just occurred to me like well the burmese are making brilliant brilliant science brilliant content that it can be explained to be by natives that i as an english speaker can then convey in a in a form that is is easily understandable to westerners who are familiar with western culture and and that can allow them to engage with the content that the burmese are making and can allow them to understand the history and the people and the ideas that they have while also giving them an insight into the actual struggle itself and and what it means for them and so i started the page and i started putting up content and i have no idea how to do social media marketing i have absolutely no idea how any of this stuff works as making tell you so not long after i reached out to a friend and i said look this is i'm really interested in this project i'm really enjoying what i'm doing but i'm afraid that it's not going to be successful because the point is just getting the message out so he recommended me to me and she came in and she's significantly more skilled so she can she can explain that but she's at this point solely responsible for running the instagram solely responsible for running the twitter page she's she's putting up means and explained she did a very good mean that your your listeners are probably going to be interested in with with regards to turning the offering bowl upside down and then the symbolism behind that
Zach 32:18
yeah we'll actually which we will actually have you guys explain a few means like you just did you did one just now great and we can go into a few favorites and the roles that they play
Brad 32:29
oh absolutely i mean i've got the page open in front of me right now we can scroll through as many as we need but yes she can take it from there but she's been so she's been a phenomenal help in in you know helping me to know how many posts is a good number and how to use hashtags effectively and ever since he joined i don't know how but looking at the metrics of the page and it's just absolutely started skyrocketing so whatever she's doing she's doing it well but that's actually explained in more detail
Zach 32:57
yeah me yeah you heard about this through a mutual friend and what's interesting about to you and what role do you think the the means play in the protests and what i mean you've already talked about how they play a role in culture already what particular role do they play in the protests and what's your interest in in helping share that the you know the the means themselves and their meanings to a wider audience
May 33:26
definitely so when i was sort of offered i was asked if i was interested in helping the page i sort of adds like oh what's the what's the reason about around the page like to to explain these means and i remembered seeing a tweet that that foreign person has tweeted about about the rooms protests and she just simply tweeted a couple of protesters holding english slides and she just simply tweeted to bring a pension to a protest but there's been retweets and replies to it simply saying that there is no way that these people are protesting in english just as brad has previously mentioned and that sort of sparked i guess and anger insightly and the like
Zach 34:28
the misunderstanding
May 34:31
and the misunderstanding i wanted to explain what was going on and how we are we can actually make intellectual means and intellectual protest signs that just hold a lot of value and a lot of meaning to them and i think that sort of inspired me to help with the page as well and i've i've i went through the page when i first do Wind. And I think that I think the same side that Brett previously mentioned, is also one of my favorite. And there's another thing that gave me really interested me that really interested me. And that was the point pajama can be, that's the first post that Brett made. And that basically means I will not be like a short person. It's like a short, short sleeve. It's a protest sign that that's pretty popular. Basically, it's basically a play on the words that would that be that is like boop joke. The joke can be that or do Jomo can be the joke can be basically means like I like I am his slave and two joma can be basically means I will not be a slave. This was widely used in the, in the colonial era, of being the British, British slaves as to what colonialism, colonialism is to us. It's a phrase that's used in order to highlight what being under a colonial rule is like and to in and to instill the feeling of liberating like to perhaps, transpire liberation.
Zach 36:42
When the irony there, right, is that that the army always claims that they are the protectors of me and against that kind of thing. And now that whole thing is being flipped around on them, where they're becoming the force that the people need protection from?
May 36:59
Absolutely, absolutely. They love the same call. Somebody down need definitely that apart, which basically means they're the father and mother of the nation. And they, and in a lot of their propaganda, you can see that one of the main propaganda points that they'd like to make is that they're the protector of the nation. And they're the reason that the nation is still unionized, and that they are opposed to foreign forces that's been trying to trying to break away that the unity of the people the unity of the different ethnicity, ethnic groups.
37:51
Right, and that's a big irony.
Zach 37:53
The irony itself is now they are the dividers of the people. And it's, it's not the different ethnic minorities, it's all just the non army people. And then the army, the big divide is internal and they're the ones that actually seem to have caused it this time. So that which they're trying to protect you from, they're actually inflicting upon upon the people. Their whole purpose is supposed to be this and actually, they're protecting you from that and they are they have become that, that they are supposed to protect you from and in a sense that that thing that meme captures that
May 38:35
absolutely. The meme also like highlights how the domino was created to free us from the British rule. And that phrase was widely used then and now we're trying to free ourselves from some polls rule by using the phrase and and the fact that people like to play on male lines height the commander in sheep's height is it's pretty fascinating the book john like it's, it's a really rhymes as well. And people love to make fun of his height.
Zach 39:19
He's short.
May 39:21
I suppose that we I do not believe that he's under five feet. But people like to say that he's four, eight, just to get back at him. And I've I've seen people refer to him as like five eight likes was literally as like maybe shit as to him. And that's one of the many things that would need explaining.
39:50
Perhaps,
Brad 39:51
but there's I mean, there are a lot of variations on Alexa even when you were talking about pajama can be like like poo, poo in Burmese just means like short. Right? So that's become his name now who or Jabu like short guy. And I think there's a meme early on where where he's standing by, it's a cartoon of him standing behind the podium wearing high heeled shoes. And the origin of this is that when Alsace which he was, was arrested. Allegedly, her high heeled shoes were confiscated by the police. Which in fairness to them is not an unusual practice high heeled shoes and belts are typically taken from people who are detained because they can be used for suicide and things like that. But the joke that spread immediately was that mean online was was ordering the police to steal her high heeled shoes, because he wanted them so he could look taller when he gives his his speech. And so he started getting cold delphina to call like, the high heeled shoe thief, you know, little things like that, like, Oh, you know, how tall how tall a different world leaders and they'll have a list of different world leaders with their heights, and you'll have me in online and it's just like, I don't know, how tall is Yoda like. So it's, you know, is it true? I don't know, don't care, but it's something that everybody enjoys and brings a sense of solidarity and ministry. Happiness me
Zach 41:17
I'd like to I'd like to move back to the the memes and also the, the the signs in English because because there is still something else there. There's the memes themselves, which are double entendres and serve a certain role, culturally and emotionally for the Burmese people. Or sorry, the Myanmar people. And and there's is also that sense that what what do you think the role of, of the English signs are for those outside that are reading now? They're being misunderstood. Is there? Is there a reason to Is there something that would Burmese people want from the people reading the signs in English?
May 42:01
I believe the question is, why we're using the English science as well. Okay, so I think this is to highlight to the world about what's happening. And what we're going through. I also have noticed a lot of means cite a protest signs that are means that's been widely used as well. And I think this is due to the fact that a lot of the younger generation have has grown up with internet to the world, they've had access to the world they've had access to means means in English, they've been they've been exchanging these English means and they've been making these English routes for quite a while. And when the coup happened, and when it was, when they were out to protest, I think this is something that they would like to share with their foreign counterparts about what they're going through, through means and through the science. Especially those means that we are this we are the Generation Z, and we are the younger generation. And we've got grown up with means a lot of a lot of our social life is just sharing means making names. And I think for us, it's a way of trying to portray our fight and our feelings and the struggle, and what we want dreams. And those are just means the signs in English are to highlight to the international community. We live in the decade where anything could be uploaded in seconds, anything could be shared, or what within seconds. And I think that is to attract attention. You can see especially with these signs, these English signs are that they're very bright so that it can catch the eye easily. And you can see that especially that these names are used to protest outside embassies and stuff as well. So these are to basically signal what's going on and what what our messages.
Brad 44:45
Right. I mean, many of these signs have been directed at the UN specifically, are directed at people like Biden, or like Boris Johnson or any other sort of internationally renowned statesman that the It means people think would would want to take up the fight for democracy. So it's not just about reaching the western audience generally some of them are really directly appealing to, to international organizations and to and to global powers for for intervention and for aid.
May 45:17
And to also and to also criticize countries that's been saying that it's an internal problem. I've seen protest signs, I've seen protests outside the Chinese Embassy, and there were signs saying that it gives us seafood, which was in response to the Chinese Embassy, which stated that the flight from coming, which came in at midnight was for seafood.
Brad 45:52
For those who are not familiar, Kunming is the capital of a landlocked province and seafood is not a notable export. She just pointed that out.
Zach 45:59
So what's the belief about what what came in our plan?
Brad 46:03
So I actually have nice, lovely, reliable information regarding that there were a lot of conspiracy theories. Some people said it was Chinese mercenaries, some people said it was a it setup for a great wall of, you know, great internet firewall. But I have indirect information from within the military that that told me that it's actually riot control gear. And after the flights from coming landed, people started seeing airsoft rifles that the Burmese police have not traditionally used and modernized riot shields which the Burmese police did not previously have access to. And, you know, a lot of a lot of Riot dispersal, non lethal Riot dispersal equipment, which the Burmese police force was not particularly well equipped to handle. So the belief is that the Chinese are doing that sort of as a balancing act, you know, to donate a little bit to the to the hunter saying like, yeah, sure, fine, we'll help you out. But donating non lethal things, so that they give them an opportunity to to control the protests without murdering people in the streets. Obviously, that did not pan out appropriately. But that is generally understood to be the thing. And also on the on the topic of protesting as China. It's important to know that they, the day after the coup happened, Chinese state media referred to the coup as a cabinet reshuffle. And they made no sort of mention of the fact that there was a violent, forceful overthrow of an elected government. They just said all the ministries have shifted around, but that's fine. So yeah, that was the thing.
Zach 47:36
And back to the memes. I saw one I don't know if it's really a meme. But it's like, you have this one on your pages picture of looks like two policemen taking a chunk of money from a temple from Thailand, we call them temples here, but from a from a right. I go to Africa. And then there's also the circle and shoes and saying these are these are actually army officers dressed as policemen. But But yeah, like, what? Yeah, what was the choice to put down on the page? And what's the meaning there? And and, yeah,
Brad 48:18
I want to talk about where that photograph came from. Because it's not, it's not certain where that photograph came from. And there have been different theories about it. I had some poll someone post on the page saying, Oh, it's, they heard that it was a bank. And so I actually I actually followed up on that because I thought, okay, we have to research this. If you look at the photograph itself, in in the background, by the door where the police have entered, you'll actually see ornamental umbrellas, the typical style that you would buy in a pagoda. And the architecture makes it clear that this is a very large, old style building. So it is it is definitely some sort of religious temple. We can't definitely confirm it. But from the view, this doesn't just appear to be some temple this appears to be the West colonnade of Shwedagon Pagoda, with the door being one of the side entrances of the colonnade entering onto the the carpark so the columns the green based columns with a gold leaf on top and the the rose tiling on the on the ground. They all match the the typical decor that you would expect in Shwedagon. So it's, it's very possible that this was the West colonnade of Shwedagon, or at least another significantly sized pagoda somewhere in the country. Right. Yeah.
Zach 49:34
And what may perhaps you could answer this what effect is that have on the people you know, I mean, not that 100% of the population is Buddhist, but and obviously the majority if there is Buddhist, what's the win? Win the people, the civilians when they see that what what's the Yeah, what's the response?
49:56
I
May 49:58
I am It is, but I'm not particularly religious. But that did incite some form of, perhaps anger inside me. I wasn't surprised. But I do believe that it's something, it's the length that they're going to, that they would steal from steel from religious buildings, or that they would disrespect. The shade of oma coda is perhaps the most respected book holder in Myanmar, that they would go to lengths as much as stealing from the pagoda itself. I think after 22,007, I can't say I'm surprised.
Zach 50:55
I yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I think a lot of what do you think if you ask the army? I mean, you could do this. But if you actually went around the house, the army Look, what percentage of them do you think are Buddhists? Is it high?
May 51:10
I would say the majority of it, I
Zach 51:14
think it'd be like you that were there, they're there. They're they're Buddhist, but they're not. Do you think they're actually religious? Like, do you think that they actually think that they're, they're Buddhists?
May 51:26
I think for them? I cannot speak for sure. But I think for them, it's the order. And it's their, it's their it's their boss that comes before religion, even if they are religious.
Zach 51:46
Right? Will you see even like the generals, or, you know, they go to, they go to some of the highest monks in the country. And so there's and there's pictures of this and even like, after the coup, there's this quite was picture winner. I just curious, like, how does that
52:06
how
Zach 52:08
I think it confuses a lot of outsiders, especially those that are also Buddhists that actually practice like meditation and are and study the Scriptures and are actually quite devoutly Buddhists how, how a mind could consider itself a Buddhist and then also be able to organize and inflict like incredible harm, including, like murder, and actually be a part of a terrorist organization, against its own people and still, like feel comfortable inside somehow not only calling yourself a Buddha, a Buddhist was showing up at a temple and making offerings and and yeah, I'm curious about that. I'm also curious about like, what, whether you're religious or not, what do you think the role should be in this? In this particular case, catastrophe? of monks, like, what would you like to see? What do you see, you know, we do see bunks on both sides, right, we see that there's monks in Mandalay, for example, are actually part of the and when I say the word nationalist here, I don't mean the way you meant it. Back when you were talking about nationalist then means Bomar and non Muslim and you know, like non interference of any form. And they're very much aligned with the army actually, that kind of nationalism. There's monks that are severely into. They were, it seems like they were supporting like the atrocities that happened in Muslim villages and with this, but in regards to like, alignment with the Army or alignment with the protests, like, what, as a Buddhist like, what would you What do you expect? What do you what do you think other Myanmar people actually expect of their monks? The ones that are Buddhists?
May 54:00
And before I answer that question, can I like point out the irony that after the coup A few days after the coup, before that the middle information page got taken down, they posted a series of photos of soldiers cleaning up the pagodas for reopening. And people even make jokes that they're doing this in order to have access to the pagodas like the pagodas Bank of God as money. I think the irony is like posting these pictures and then reportedly taking away taking away money from the pagoda is is just very stark. But to answer your question for me, I cannot speak for all the Buddhists and how and what they're expecting. But for me personally, I would not, I would definitely not like to see, I did not like the national listing put up the nationalists months, I think it goes in the way of the teaching of Buddha. And specially those were very obviously Islamophobic. And those were almost blindly nationalistic. With the current coup, I could also see that there are a few of the months who's been siding with the military, and those that's been going against, I do believe that it is okay for the months to not be involved in the whole political, per se, but I do believe then play them. standing with the people standing for the common good, so to speak, is what I would expect of them to do. But those are not strong expectations. Right, especially after 2007, I would not like to see what happens happen again. Right, I
Zach 56:50
think a lot of our audience is shocked that anyone that's breaking the first precept of killing, especially at this level of like killing human lives could ever, Taran call themselves a Buddhist of any way of any sort. And so I think that there's a kind of a shock, and I wonder if that shocks me and my people in the same way or not? Yeah, how does that sit with? With you?
May 57:19
Definitely. I like I've been taught since I was young, that to respect a monk, and a mug, is it at the monk is one of the five. One of the three, yeah, they're not that good enough? How would you translate that?
Brad 57:47
Would they be like the three secret people or the three venerated people? Yes.
May 57:53
And that, that were bound to respect no matter what that would be? The Buddha
58:01
Dhamma.
May 58:03
And months, I feel like I'm not translating that, right. Anyways, and that I was also taught to respect the role of the monk right, above anything else. And I've seen fathers paid homage to their sons, when they're monks. And this is, this is something that, that shocked me as a little girl, because parents are also the people that we hold with utmost respect. And the fact that the monks come above that is something that's been distilled into me, and to see these soldiers beat up and kill once been a horrible, horrible sight. And I, I believe that a lot of the people who saw those and who has heard about those, I have stopped considering these these offenders as Buddhists in general. Right.
Zach 59:32
And what about the masks that are actually siding with the, the these brutal terrorist forces of the army like? Is it getting harder and harder to respect the robes when when the drops are really engaged in something? Hey, heinous.
May 59:52
Absolutely. My parents are extremely religious, and I've heard my that talk very badly if we read through the absolutely despite him, he absolutely hates him.
Zach 1:00:09
And for those the pronunciations without to write my saying that right? It's the, for the, for the listeners, if you don't know this monk, it's the one it was on Time Magazine. And they were asking the questions like, you know, there is this is this this form of terrorism in Buddhism. And his picture was on the, on the front of Time magazine a few years back. And so this is not famous in a good way but an infamous monastic here in, in Myanmar, some actually claim he's, he's defeated, defeated himself by encouraging killing. That's one of the five things monks are not allowed to do is to kill or encourage others to kill if upon encouraging someone to kill that someone dies because of that he is killed because of that, and then that would be defeat. So some actually contest whether he's actually a monk anymore or not. Because if you don't have to get the throne, the disrobed by anyone. There's no formal ceremony. As soon as you do that act, then you're, you're, you're no longer a monk at that very moment. And so, anyways, I just thought I'd throw that in there. But yeah, so I just want to get some context about who you're talking about. Yeah. So about who we are to?
May 1:01:24
Absolutely. I think a lot of people are claiming that as well. You see people posting pictures about these monsters when supporting the military or anything like that. And they will call them fake monks, and that they're no longer monks, and that they just bog people in ropes. I think, especially with the younger generation, who are way less religious. They've been very outspoken about these, like monks siding with the military. Even my religious parents, are they really, really despite we got to back when he was very prominent, I guess he had a following. And that sort of disgusted me.
Zach 1:02:18
That's right. And your parents were also opposed to Amazon, you're saying?
May 1:02:22
Yes, yes, absolutely. I know that a lot of people that I came into contact with, oppose him. Like many of the many of my friends hit him, and they would make meetings and they would just make fun of him.
1:02:42
Really? Wow.
May 1:02:43
Yes. There's actually a very famous new template with him.
Zach 1:02:50
I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised people feel that way. I'm surprised people that are they're actually going to the level of publicly expressing that. And at the same time, it's totally understandable. I don't personally find it's, it's let me back up a second. I think I think the monks that are participating in this art, in the name of trying to protect the sosna. The assassin is the teeth, the teaching, right? The Buddhist teaching is supposed to last for as long as possible, and you don't want to do anything to harm and deteriorate the teaching, and actually in the name of saying that they're protecting it, they are actually harming it. And that's, that's clear to see where we were talking yesterday. Maybe you can speak on this a little bit, too. There seems to be it's harder and harder to respect. The the monastic tradition and the Buddhist tradition when when the monastics are acting this way. How do you how do you see that? I mean, it sounds like it sounds like I don't know how you How do you feel about and what do you see and feel around you and from other people?
May 1:03:58
I I personally believe that there are monks who do practice. We'll dive in that. Right. But there are a few that's been really, really pushing forward this national nationalism narrative, that that we are to protect that that or not, and that in order to let Buddhism drive, we must hate other religions, and we must be opposed to other religions and other people, other foreign people, so to speak. And I think these narratives are not pushed by the majority, but by a few of the majority but They've been given reasonable support and a reasonable for is that they've been heard louder than a lot of the other monks who do practice real data, and are what people would call real marks.
Zach 1:05:26
It seemed like I'd like to, I'd like to ask you this question, it seemed like a few years ago, that it was a lot easier for like the kind of the common person in Newmar to actually align with that form of nationalism. And that's different than the patriotism and nationalism that you talked about at the beginning of this interview. And I said yesterday that I think that opportunity is lost, I don't think that could ever happen in in, in this generation, in these times, it will take another 2030 years before you can fool people again. But what do you think, like, do you think? What's your sense of, of the people now like, and, like, as far as what's the majority's relationship with that form of nationalism that comes from we are to and and Mahabharata and that whole group? I was popular, it was popular just a few years ago, but like, what, what state is that in? Now? How do people hold that in their minds in the heart?
May 1:06:32
I think with the majority of people, those who I believe has finally believed in this form of nationalism, or has practiced this form of nationalism or even thought that this nationalism was the only way to be nationalistic. I think a lot have, perhaps, I do hope what I say is true, that change quite these days, I cannot speak for the majority of the people, I think this is a sensitive topic that I have not yet discussed with a lot of the older generation of people, I believe that my parents are the exception. So my parents have been sort of opposed to them ever since the start. So I cannot say for how the religious, very religious, strictly religious, but as our feeling towards it. But before hit the younger generation, I believe it just pushed them further away, if they haven't identified with it. And even there are also the young people who have strongly withhold this value. And from the younger people that I've been seeing these been really, really, really regretful of the abuse that they've held. And they've been, really, they've basically opened their eyes on how it really is.
Zach 1:08:26
Right? So it did seem like to me that in the, in the early days of that movement, the young people even though they weren't religious, and they weren't necessarily aligned with Mahabharata, or are the monks on the religious side of it, but they like the power of that form of nationalism a few years ago. And and what I hear you say, now, is that sentiment amongst that group of people has changed. Is that, do I hear that right? Or is there more to it?
May 1:08:57
I believe that's true. I hope it's true as well, from what I'm seeing, it's the case, but I really hope it's true.
Zach 1:09:09
I mean, I'm glad to hear that. And I'll be honest to God, that's really what I want to hear. And I didn't want to force an answer. But yeah, I was just hope I'm kind of hoping that like that. I could see the conditions I could see that all the reasons why that that that tide was rising. But I think one of the silver linings of this horrible of these this horrible last month is that that might be dead, like the hardcore will still back that idea of nationalism, but I think the the other people in the general population that move that way for that time, for all the reasons and conditions that were there. I'm hoping that that's, that's done, those conditions won't exist. Like, I it sounds like you're saying you just said a few minutes ago that like people can the young people see more clearly now what was going on there and then not going to fall for that again i'm only i can only hope that's true but it does sound like it does sound like there's a change there i want to return back to an idea of we had talked about the the monastics possible role in in the in the this this protest the strike against this terrorist army and brad you had talked about like the idea of turning the ball and is there a meme about that and then like you had something to say there and that would be yeah like as an official act not a meme there is a gesture in in myanmar buddhism that when someone makes you an offer if i can't remember where it comes from in the in the vineya but like turning your bowl over is is a symbol of of rejecting the offer of someone which if it's a if it's a good human being in good standing that would be a huge offense and that would be what would be like the equivalent of a sin but like with certain people it's actually appropriate and so there was there's always that that possibility that when someone that is evil so to speak or or you know extremely unwholesome or like them the money being donated is actually blood money or dirty money that you can i mean monks shouldn't be accepting money anyways but like just as an example things that came from wrong means should not be accepted and so there's always an opportunity to turn the ball so that's kind of the background of it like so yeah it does your website you might correct and remember that your website has a meme about that you certainly see people on the streets in the marches and someone in the front actually holding bowls upside down
Brad 1:12:06
like we definitely have one and we can talk about that although that specific meme was was made by me and she had to explain the details of it too because i understood the concept i understood the tradition but i didn't understand the sort of karmic logic behind it the logistics of it the just one thing i did want to say on on my betta quickly was that i do remember back in about 2017 2018 some some time then when maba actually went to a beta and if you don't have a beta and it's it's in the heart of downtown in yangon but it's a very muslim area and they went to probate and specifically for the purpose of inciting a riot and i remember getting the report that actual monks of mahabharata had been arrested by the police for for incitement to riot as a result of that so so i just wanted to point out that even even a few years back even the police themselves the burmese police viewed mbah to be so extreme as that they they felt okay physically arresting a monk for for what mahabharata was was doing and i remember being very shocked reading that thinking wow that's that's a pretty significant gesture for the police force to make apps and they're willing to do that to a monk but yeah we definitely have that mean but i think i think may might be better positioned to to go into the depths of it
May 1:13:33
so yes i actually made a post about the bait mouth it's something that's been heard a lot in the protests the leader would scream the bait the bait and everyone would say mouth mouth which basically means overturning the own bowl and it does hold a significance to the premise to the premise brothers especially with the act of turning hoover overturning the old school i have heard stories of the moms doing that way back in the colonial period when they were opposed to the colonial rule and the simple act of turning overturning the ohms well basically is a statement that the offense is so big and so horrible that the mob will not accept anything from set offender and that they will not serve that the offender is not worthy to be to be served the word i believe has evolved over the time we call the 28 protests as the bat which is which the word itself like the base mouth became the the act of protesting or the act of defiance itself for the layperson so when we say the big we meant like a huge like a general strike a big protests like the one we had on the 828 and we had one previously on the 22nd i believe those we refer to as the bat i think the word now have a significant meaning to it
Brad 1:16:07
i'm not sure whether that was sort of covered it was the idea that this is when when i was explaining it to me she was saying that the the concept was the the person is not fit to be served which felt very strange to me because the person is literally giving food to the monks so surely logically would mean the person is not fit to serve the monk and that the monk is not fit to be served but the actual literal meaning was reversed and so as we discussed it as it transpired the point was when the layman gives food to the monk by having done that the layman receives karma and so by by refusing the donation of the layman the monk is also refusing to allow himself to become a vessel for the karma to be given to to someone who the monk knows is undeserved like that so there is that two directional element to it so the monk is basically saying i would rather starve than let you have good karma because you don't deserve it right
Zach 1:17:08
they're denying they're denying the merit making merit making is huge right so yeah that's the comma right through making merit and so in a culture like myanmar and thailand if you if someone's not allowed to make merit that's like it's like you may as well like go to hell immediately it's just a no chance for you because most people do not meditate they do not try to liberate themselves they try to boost up their spiritual standing so to speak by making merit and hopefully they'll have a better life next time and maybe next time they'll be able to be liberated you take that away from someone not because of your own choice or judgment based on the behavior so bad so defiled that you no longer accept data from them donation from them so they can no longer make merit that way that's a huge huge gesture
Brad 1:18:07
i mean it would make a pariah of someone in a in a society under normal circumstances if somebody if someone so high standing as a monk were to say this individual is unworthy i mean who in their right mind would want to associate with that person after that
Zach 1:18:22
so is there a meme around this is we were talking about that you would create a meme with this maze is it sir more explained with that or is it did our explanation kind of cover the meaning of the meme or
May 1:18:36
i believe that it's not i believe it's not me it's just it's it's also it's it's a protest slogan that people use and the post was basically an explanation of that and also to keep in mind that the dangar like they basically are doing this to uphold the to uphold the basic rules of conduct and morality that's been laid by the buddhist teacher teachings and that by doing this gesture they're they're announcing that this this offender could is this offenders actions are resulting in great suffering more or a lot of the a lot of the other late people and that by interjecting with this gesture the sangha could perhaps help them away right right that's that is also an ultimate gesture Because I believe that Santa's are supposed to be withholding their, their political beliefs from there, they're seen as calm and collected and not be interjecting into political debate.
Zach 1:20:19
political office as well, right, definitely, or even political influence. They're not supposed to, you know, like, that could cause great harm, you know, to be involved in politics in such a way that has a result that favors some people and harms other people. And that's just not the duty of the month, as I understood it, when I was a monk. However, like, when it is my personal opinion, when, when anyone, including monks and nuns, when, when you see, I mean, in the name of politics, you see things that are just like harm you no harm, it's like going out and killing people, or I mean, it just, or there is something to say it, I don't think it has to mean silence. And it certainly can mean standing up for what is wholesome and what is right and what is skillful for the mind and causing harm to a lot of people great suffering or small or large. You know, like when you encounter it, you know that it's not being a political does not mean not standing up for what's right. And there's different ways to do that. And there's skillful and unskillful ways to do that someone that has a good mind can find a more skillful way to engage in, in, in trying to influence people towards being more skillful and less harming of others. And so I think those lines get blurred sometimes. Yeah, I didn't know that the just the words themselves are actually you derived from that the turning of the bowl that actually meant the protest of the people towards a some heinous gesture, and that certainly fits it's more than just to gesture right the the military coup a terrorist overtake? Yeah, go ahead.
Brad 1:22:08
Interestingly, may may have found the the origin right, which in Burmese it doesn't sound quite right. But it actually the term for this the formal term for this comes from Bali, which is the liturgical language of Buddhism in in South and Southeast Asia, and in Bali, but means offering ball and liquid Jana means upside down or face down or inverted. And so botanico Janaka ma is literally bold face down karma. And this is a poly concept that has been literally calc. So literal word for word translated into Burmese as the main home, because I wanted to take a bit of a lateral step here, because we've been talking about Buddhism and the impact of Buddhism on the Burmese people that on the generals and so on. And I think it might be useful to sort of bring up what some people may not be aware of is that Buddhism in Burma is not I don't want to be disparaging, but it as is generally the case, it's not quote unquote, pure Buddhism, you have pre Buddhist beliefs that continue to live on. So one of the characteristics of the means societies, the continued belief in net, the sort of natural spirits in certain parts of your country, but one of the other parts is the bedding sale. The fortune tellers. Yeah, who, in Western culture, you know, a fortune teller that there are some stereotypes you know, you have the negative stereotype of the old gypsy woman or you have the charlatan, you know, on the TV show who who tells you over the phone, what your lucky numbers are, and things like that. But in in Burmese society, biddings they are generally viewed reasonably positively. And they have they have a reasonable amount of respect associated with them. What's interesting, though, is that some of these fortune tellers who work for the military are phenomenally powerful people. There was a fortune teller who died about three, four years ago, whose name was et. Interestingly, her income was estimated to be sitting at about 7 million a month, which is huge. But the high ranking officers of the military are deeply deeply invested in, in the supernatural land and numerology and astrology and, and all of these traditional pre Buddhist beliefs. And this is something that's been going back all the way to at least now when possibly before then, I don't know. So I think when we talk about Buddhism, and we talk about the generals doing things that would strike a Buddhist as deeply offensive and fronting I think it's worth noting that, at least from my perspective, I'm speaking as an outsider, I may be incorrect, but from my perspective, the generals in the hierarchy military officers do not exist in the same Buddhist bubble, that the Burmese people exist in they they seem to be following a slightly weird, twisted, supernatural oriented belief system. And they seem to be very devoted to that, to that belief system. So it is less shocking to me that they would transgress against a pagoda. Because from from a strict Buddhist understanding, my understanding is all of this astrology, numerology sort of casting curses stuff is anti is not accepted by mainstream Buddhism anyway. So they already seem to be transgressing to some degree. So it I think it's more from their perspective, well, how far are we going to transgress in the interest of serving our alternative beliefs, but again, I'm speaking as an outsider may might be able to shed that a light on this man, my question
Zach 1:25:51
for you in that regard is like, are they separate, there's like wakes, there's these fortune tellers, and from my experience, which is limited, there's not a clear separation between Buddhism and and those other arts are and those other beliefs, certainly not the Nats. That it seems to be all blended together. As far as I saw, there's like, there's like a lot of intersection. But they're not exactly the same. But But like, a lot of the weeks are considered themselves Buddhists and are treated a lot like monks in that regard, except that they have special powers, and even in that regard, are held higher than Marx in some in some aspects. But, but perhaps, I mean, maybe you maybe you could correct me on that, or just informed me more on on, on on how you understand that or how you see that, or what you know about that.
May 1:26:45
I believe they've been blinded pretty well as well. You can see astrologers, and certain fortune tellers, with their offices, or their offices, like base in pagodas. And you can also find monks who practice fortune telling, or, or, or as astrologers, my mother's name has been renamed by actually by a monk, who practice astrology and told her that her name would not be fit for her. So he had her name change, we can see that it's all into wind, like, quite complex. But as Brad has previously mentioned, there is also a sector, which people, which the common people would call out there, which would be referred to as perhaps dark magic, or Voodoo in a way that people perceive as something that's really separate from Buddhism. And that's not that's not widely practiced as well. And people believe that these generals and the military do practice forms of these, this dark magic, especially with some of the some of the some of the astrologers and fortune tellers at the comms live in consulting has breasts, a knowledge of these dark magic, dark magic practices, especially, it's interesting that recently, they made an arrest of a quite popular dark magic, practicing dark magic person.
1:28:47
And
May 1:28:50
the person actually has been creating a curse on melee, and he was live streaming it and he was arrested just immediately, and it just shows how the military actually believes in dark magic. This just shows the extent to what dark magic that they believe in and I think this ensured people that I'm sure people in there believes that the military to practice dark magic, I can't say for sure, but that's sort of what we believe that they do.
Brad 1:29:33
I mean, we we did make a meme about this particular incident. The the the person who was arrested, goes by different names, but the name that I have for him here is lenio, Daya. And basically, the cost that he cost the costs and and so I did a little bit of background research on this. The cursory cost has has a name interestingly. It's the curse of min Nando. And this curse appears in a very ancient inscription nearby the pagoda of Minato. And it's a it's ascribed to a queen of the bygone period. Her name is not known she is identified by her by her father. But ultimately it is believed that this particular curse, which was established to protect the pecota remains because people were afraid of destroying the inscription because they're afraid of the curse. And that much later, there was a there was a statesman and an author, whose name is banja, Sally, Sally Vanya. And he was murdered. But there is a belief that he was murdered because this particular curse was invoked. So the fortune teller actually invoked this particular Curse of Minato, which a reasonable number of people are familiar with. And not long after that was live streams. And there's a photo that people might might have seen or might not have seen a series of kitchen knives, with candles on them in a circle around a central candle. That's from that live stream. And mean our lines. grandson was born not long after and he he actually has a heart defect. And he's been taken to Thailand for for medical treatment. And one of the responses to this news from a lot of people was the people's curse is working. So well, whether they genuinely believe in it, or whether they don't believe in like, I've seen someone question and I've seen the idea raised that it may be so extreme that neither the people nor the military believe in these classes, but each one thinks that the other side does. And so they feel compelled to pretend that they believe in it in order to psychologically impact the other side. But in any event, he people who, you know, let's say a year ago, would not really have thought too much about curses. They're now saying like, hey, screw it, if it works, it works. I don't care that people's curse is working. It's bringing poor health to him. So there were rumors that after the curse was cost, me and online, felt unwell. And that he's been keeping a low profile, in part because he's afraid of of the cursors. And to be sure, he has not made all that many public appearances since since that video went up. So there is a there's a bit of an interesting backstory to that particular person to add to that movement that I think it's kicked off in a in a slight sense. But also, I want to point out that it is believed by the Burmese that costing occurs for a median sale is a very dangerous and risky thing to do. My understanding is that they have to go through extensive purification which rules to prevent the curse from rebounding and affecting them negatively because casting curses is something that's so inherently unethical and unholy, that it brings inherent danger to themselves. So, to anyone who genuinely believes in this sort of thing, the fact that someone is willing to cost the curse is itself taken as a very, very serious gesture of determination because it's understood to come with great personal risk. So there's quite a bit of
Zach 1:33:09
Yep. In this case, it's actually being aimed at admin. Men on the line, right? Yes, correct. And so you're using dark magic to actually counter Dark Forces like that are harmful to remove evil from the world, so to speak. Right? It's like a
Brad 1:33:31
needle. Yeah, right. Because I mean, for those who are not familiar with it, mean are very near when famously believed in numerology so much that he changed the currency to 45 and 90, because it was divisible by nine and that I knew about that a lot of people knew about that. What I did not know is that he actually devalued all of the other notes overnight without giving people any warning. So everyone's life savings was basically reduced to toilet paper overnight. And, and he was so devout in this line of belief that he was willing to plunge millions and millions of people into abject poverty, to serve his numerological beliefs. So, I think the degree to which the military believe in this sort of thing should not be understated. I think we do need to take that as a very serious element of their identity and their belief system.
Zach 1:34:27
But it's interesting, it could it could represent a vulnerability, right? Because in a physical way, the leaders of the army are untouchable. Like it's unlikely that physically, you would not easily be able to get to them to cause them any kind of harm. Whether that was you know, someone trying to assassinate or even just to, like, just remove or capture even if it wasn't violent, right? physically in one way or the other, they actually are hard to reach but this mix, if, of course, there are protection spells as well right, but but this makes them touchable so to speak in a in a in a way of vulnerable like a spell can be cast upon them if they believe that that represents vulnerability and that
Brad 1:35:15
these things in it comes into the what what the burmese are referring to increasingly as as psyops psi the the mastermind behind a lot of this crackdown stuff is is a minister goes by the name cit nine is completely different to but is absolutely synonymous to can love so there have been some puns made about that but he's a prominent author but also he is believed to be the guy sitting in the background saying hey let's let's mess with the people this way let's mess with the people that way let's you know hurt them emotionally or let's hurt them economically and do these things and so people people are of the opinion that the government is trying to manipulate them psychologically the government is trying to get under their skin and make them afraid or make them scared or give them false hope in order to to cut out their support from underneath and so a lot of this sort of stuff you know casting curses on people who believe in curses i think the burmese people view it as just were doing psyops back to the government well you know if they brought in curses let's push on that pressure point but that's fast that wow
Zach 1:36:30
man you heard of any of that
May 1:36:33
yes and also i not sure if you've mentioned this on the page but a lot of people believe that the number two is very unlucky for the military so this is one of the reasons why they did the two fives movement it's in order to get back to the number the new numerology that brad has previously mentioned it's awesome it's also a very fascinating that the the army the battalions are actually named using neurology as well as especially also the light infantry division that's been placed in place to suppress the suppress the the protests they've been named using numerology and they're also apparently been placed strict strategically using numerology as well
Zach 1:37:40
that's 33 and 77 those are the two infantry troops i've heard of because the
May 1:37:48
33 is what is also responsible for the rohingya crisis i believe the 77 is the one as the one base typical and they've also been involved in a lot of ethnic wise as well
Zach 1:38:11
and you're saying what what if they were to call them two threes and two sevens would that make them mad that they'd be putting the two in there
May 1:38:19
there actually is an allied infantry named 22 i believe but i they are not named url neurologically so i believe that 55 was i cannot remember which battalion which division was the start of it but they've been named not like in order they've been given random numbers to them and the whole numbers to them which is very interesting and a lot of people believe that their base were their base and the numbers and especially now that light infantry 33 and 77 are widely used right now is an indication that they're they've been adhering to their numerology the numerology
Zach 1:39:18
so on your facebook page like you it sounds like there's more than just means right so it's it's means and political political signs as well is it am i saying that correctly or is it limited more to means
May 1:39:33
political science as well i believe
Host 1:39:35
as well right
May 1:39:36
yes and also political slogans and what perhaps brad you could expand on that
Brad 1:39:43
the origin of it was like the very beginning it was just it was just posters that people were carrying with them like protest signs and the thing is like the page changed because i started the page on on the 17th 18th of february Now, at that point, yes, there have been altercations, they have been clashes. But at that point, the only deaths that had occurred will react to the kind who was shot in the back of their head in a puddle by a soldier in police uniform, with a nine millimeter Rosie, and prior to that they had also been a car accident, which is believed work was caused by the police. And so one of the technically the first deaths associated with the protests is that individual is named disgraceful, they are forgotten, I apologize for that. But So up until that point, there have been reasonably few deaths. And the clashes had not been extreme. And therefore a lot of the protests content was a little bit light hearted. You know, you had a lot of interesting scenes in Yangon, you had a lot of different cultural groups coming out and there were, you know, drag queens protesting in in, you know, full glamour gear, and, you know, pride groups protesting and you had, like, more visibility of, for example, Muslim minorities saying things like, our religions may be different, but we will overthrow the dictatorship together, we have a post about that on the page as well. So that that content was fine, but it rapidly got dark. And I remembered, you know, after way on tune was a 16 year old boy who was shot in the head with a seven point 16 millimeter sniper round in, in Mandalay. You know, when he died, the tone really changed. I mean, not not just the page, but I mean, that the people that I'm talking to the Burmese people like the you could feel the the depression in, in the hope and mood and, and, you know, I, you know, people crying and things like that it was it was it was really, really, really terrible. And so, you know, the page started as like a very light hearted hey, here's a funny, interesting meme that someone made, I'll translate it and explain it. But it had rapidly changed to say, like, Look, this is stuff that's happening. And this is a protest movement. And here are some more strategic things that you need to understand about what's going on. Because, you know, I was definitely afraid that if, if it's just, let's have a laugh at this at this funny meme. You know, we might lose sight of the fact that that people are being murdered on a regular basis, the desktop for February, the official desktop is 23 for the month of February, and we we put up a post, I think, on the first of March, we put up a post saying, you know, these are the names of the 23 people who were killed. You know, that's not mean content. That's not funny content. That's not entertaining content. But it's necessary to sometimes ground the page and and remember that the point is to get the message out to the world, generally to the English speaking world to the Western world and saying, the Burmese people are fighting and they're fighting for something very serious and the fight is is not light hearted is not easy. So there is there has increasingly been a shift away from the comedic content, I still want to put up comedic content, I still want to put up light hearted content, I still want to give people hope and have a bit of fun. You know, there's a there's a one that I put up a few days ago where a police officer threw a flashbang grenade. And it actually managed to hit another police officer in the head in front of him. Which, you know, people found reasonably entertaining, just the ineptitude, of the police in in their operations, you know, put that sort of thing up. But increasingly, you know, a lot of people are getting tired. What we have to understand is that the CDM, the civil disobedience movement, it is stalling people, it is refusing to go to work. If you refuse to go to work, you're refusing to get paid. And if you don't get paid, you can't buy food that there are there are plenty of very generous people who have some means who have decided to donate food daily, to the protesters, right. And one of the means we put up earlier on it was a it was a meme based on an old advert for Super brand breakfast cereal, which I've had is actually quite delicious. But you know, it's the son who's come back from this very long journey. And he sees his parents again, and he honors them by bringing them you know, super brand cereal is a very cheesy commercial. And they flipped it around a little bit. And in the version of the meme, he's bringing food that was donated to him from from these donors because he's been protesting. So it's very clear to the Burmese context that well this is a son who is not just returned from a long journey. This is a son who's returned from a day of protesting and he's bringing food home to his family that was donated because they don't have any means to get food otherwise. And we have to understand that no matter how generous people are the food you have is The food you have and not every person is going to get fed. Things are tough and people sort of losing, losing hope and losing determination because when your stomach is grumbling you tend to. And I do try in a lot of my posts to sort of remind people like, hey, the fact that the junta are stealing money from the pagoda, the fact that the police are stealing food from civilians to eat, is because they've run out of money as well. And in a lot of ways, this is this is just a waiting game. Now, this is just who is going to crack first. And, you know, I'm telling people like, Hey, you know, you could protest just as effectively by staying home. You know, you don't have to go into the streets to demonstrate like the police have to be in the street all day in the hot sun. They're being given one meal a day. That's that's what they've been provided with their rations are being held to a single meal a day. They are quite literally starving. They are stealing food from from random civilians from donation trucks from we've seen them stealing fresh fruit from a store. I sold them stealing an entire biryani stole, they picked up the stole and ran with it because they have no food to eat. They have to be there anyway. You know, you can protest from the comfort of your own home with your aircon. And I was explaining this to someone and she said to me, no, like we're not protesting for the police. We're protesting for the other people in Yangon. Because if they don't see people in the streets protesting, they're going to think, oh, everyone else has given up, we have to go home or we have to go back to work. And we have to just accept that, that we live under a military dictatorship again. So the protest movement has changed from showing opposition to the military and showing defiance to the forces and has become more a movement of showing continued energy and solidarity with the other protesters to say no, we're pushing. And that's why the content is sort of changed to say like, hey, they're running out of money. paydays, the end of the month, it came and went, and I will bet my house that they did not get their paychecks. Or if they did, they didn't get even half of their paychecks. They're stealing money, they're stealing food that desperate. And the police and the military units eventually are going to have to start giving up and walking off the job. Because why would you? Why would you continue doing that? If you're not getting fed, and you're not getting paid? So I think that's why the content has been shifting a little bit to try and sort of reach out because most of the people on the page are actually Burmese. Interestingly, if you look at a lot of the engagement, a lot of the the likes and the comments we get many of them actually coming from Burmese people who appreciate that the page exists. But the page hasn't really made it that far out into the international sphere yet. We're hoping that it will. But so so in that way, it's it's not just about saying, hey, the Burmese are doing this, let's tell the outside world, there's also a little bit of a feedback loop of knowing that some of this message is getting back to the Burmese people. So it's, it's about in a sense, also being able to spread that information that I know a lot of people are, are not receiving I know a lot of Burmese people do not know that the police are desperate for money and for food. And they do not know how close a lot of these people ought to just, you know, quitting the jobs, and they're going out and they're and they're protesting, even on days when they've been warned ahead of time, like all indicators say that the police are going to live fire protesters today do not go outside, it's incredibly dangerous. But because they don't have access to this information, they think, oh, but we have to go out and risk our lives today. Because otherwise everything is lost. So I think I think that's why the content has slowly been changing. Not in a nutshell. But yeah.
Zach 1:48:28
And it provides this, this outward reach of communication, but it also has like a loop where it loops back around to to keep everyone in the loop of understanding that that things are alive and things are actually growing. And so it's a communication habit, it takes on a very peculiar particular and interesting angle. It's, it's, it's providing other roles as you just describe it. And for me, it's also helped me to kind of appreciate the degree of, of cleverness of, of, of solidarity and community that's, that's being expressed in this, this fight against atrocity, against all odds. And so far, it's been very inspiring. And then you guys are, this is your contribution to,
Brad 1:49:21
I mean, we're trying to do the videos as well. So fight so to speak. They're not they're not up yet. I have to clarify that. But we did get one of them edited today. So it should be posted reasonably soon. But we were hoping to have a Myanmar minute channel on YouTube shorts, just putting out one minute videos in English explaining, okay, just one issue at a time. This is the thing that occurred, this is what you need to know these are the visuals that are associated with that, take this information and go with it sort of thing. So not deep journalism, not not deep explanation, but also not means that would be more just, this is the thing that is occurring and you should be aware of it. So Sort of contents are slightly different. Basically, yeah, like
Zach 1:50:04
data basically about, basically, this is the raw data. This is what's happening. We're not interpreting anything. We're just giving you the we're just explaining basically, what's happening. Well, I appreciate both of you for having us. I appreciate that people are getting involved. And yeah, absolutely. Yes. May I just I know you're right there. Things are basically right outside your door outside your neighborhood, I just wish you, I wish you safety, but also wish the whole country's success, meaning the patriotism that you describe that the people, the bulk of the of the country, the people actually have a government that represents them that cares about them, and, and that people have the freedom to, to, to to certain things, and it's my hope
May 1:50:58
that so how was that? Thank you so much for having us and for giving us another platform to, to basically push our fight. I can't support. I really do appreciate it. Yes.
Zach 1:51:21
And yeah, it's a it's a beautiful thing. Like, there was no Facebook, you know, 30 years ago, or whenever, right, and there was no podcasting that and so like, not only do these networks exist, but like, this is an example of how we can connect networks together and and then grow like networks of networks to move information around and, and to, you know, to let people know what's going on and
May 1:51:46
how so with Insight Myanmar, a lot more success. Giving karma back?
1:51:55
Oh, thank you.
Zach 1:51:59
Yeah, we were trying to provide Yeah, provide voices to different angles on on different things. But this is, like I said before, to some of our listeners who are more Dharma oriented, you know, this is actually Insight, Myanmar, his way to actually engage in the world, when we see harm, not just to present the idea of it, but actually to do it. And so listen, not all the content coming out recently has been about the Dharma so directly, but it's living Dharma in the sense that that we're are trying to help a cause to prevent great harm. And this Yeah, so this is our our way of engaging,
May 1:52:42
I believe you do want my background noise. It's it's eight o'clock and people are beating pots and pans now.
Zach 1:52:54
Can you pull it? Can you pull the microphone over to the window?
Host 1:54:08
Thank you for taking the time to listen to this show. I understand that this is an enormously difficult time for many people these days, myself included. And just the mere fact of staying informed is helping to keep a focus on this pertinent issue. And the only way that we can do our job of continuing to provide this content at this very critical time is through the support of generous donors, listeners like yourselves. So if you found this episode of value, and would like to see more shows like this on the current crisis, please consider making a donation to support our efforts. Either monthly pledges or one time donations are fully appreciated. And all funds go immediately to the production of more episodes like this one. 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2:05:41
Right guys