Transcript: Episode #44: A Screeching Halt: The Military Coup Shoots Down Reforms
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Maw Htun Aung, which appeared on April 4, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:24
Thank you for taking the time to listen to today's episode. As you know, the current crisis in Myanmar is extremely concerning. And we appreciate that you're taking the time to be informed about what's happening. There's value even just becoming aware and helping to inform others. So please consider sharing this episode so that more people may learn about what is really happening in the country. It's critical to ensure that this issue remains present in the public discourse. For now, let's get on to the interview that follows.
01:14
Good day. Hey, by the way, have
01:21
a good day.
Host 01:47
I'm here talking to Motown. It's a pleasure to welcome you to Insight Myanmar podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.
Maw Htun Aung 01:55
My pleasure. And thanks for having me here.
Host 01:58
Yeah, so this is a very tense time. I know that many people now are under enormous pressure in enormous danger. And I just want to check in with you before we begin this. Is there anything that we should be sensitive to discussing or revealing about yourself? Regarding the situation, the dangers now to ensure your safety?
Maw Htun Aung 02:22
Well, I mean, it seems the whole since the military coup in Myanmar, like the whole country is no longer safe. So regardless of what you said, or you know what you do, and the decision is made arbitrarily, so I think it is fine, because we are we're in this altogether.
Host 02:43
Okay, okay, this is a difficult time. And let's try to get through it together and try to understand in the time that we have here a little bit about your background and what you're currently doing, what you have been doing the last six weeks. But let's start with learning a little bit about you and your background first, can you take us back and tell us a bit about where you're from and a little bit about your family life and community growing up?
Maw Htun Aung 03:12
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was not very complicated. I was born in the chin Aegina. So I'm an ethnically at the chin. But I grew up and I raised in in Yangon. So most most of my adult life is in younger. My parents were also kitchen. And they brought us here to Yangon because they wanted to flee the raging Civil War in, in my native state. And yeah, I was educated in young gone. And also I went to school in Yangon, for my bachelor degree in computer science, but then I will consider like, really dark here because these were the year under the military rule. So we do not really have a proper education. So right after I finished my bachelor degree, and I started working in the humanitarians and development, feel helping people I was always thinking of like how to further my education. And then I got an opportunity in 2009 to study in Hong Kong Polytechnic University. So since then, when I came back, I was engaged more in the community mobilizations and also policy advocacy.
Host 04:35
You talked about being catchin, growing reborn in michiana, which is the far north of the country and then coming and continuing your education in Yangon. And I just like to take a moment and look at that examine what your experience was like there. So you were an ethnic Christian. And in terms of the community you grew up in in Yangon, and also who you went to school with, were you surrounded by other people in the kitchen community or was it more like Bomar fellow students and the more people in your neighborhood? What? What? After you moved? What What were those early years like
Maw Htun Aung 05:11
yeah it because I, I started my, my kindergarten in Yangon and also my primary school in Yangon. So I wasn't like facing this whole culture shock like someone who has transferred school, like in the in the middle school. So I was lucky so I did not have that kind of cultural shock. But yeah, I am a minority in the school at that time, all the school were like state school, there is no private school, or, or like International School and like we have now. So we we've gone through all these like state education system. So in the state school, I, I'm touching and also like, my consider myself a Christian, but in the state school, most of my friends, teachers, and the system is like pretty much Buddhist centers, meaning like I grew up reciting, or hearing the Buddhist prayers and chanting So, but at the time, I didn't feel like a school that maybe because I started the education early on. So I the language skills does not impede me, you know, what I from learning. But yes, aside from like, some instances where some of the Buddhist nationalistic, you know, like teacher want us all to, you know, like, pray the Buddhists, you know, like prayer, because he is basically thinking that he is teaching a good manner to his students. So, aside from that, kind of, like clashes, I think, I do not have a very oppressive culture at school. Instead, you know, I was able to learn, you know, like, how a different you know, like, communities, you know, like culture and, and I was able to adapt, you know, like, to different cultures, and society, you know, like that, that are different from my home.
Host 07:24
Right, right. And I'm interested to explore that just a little bit more, because on this podcast platform, especially prior to the coup, we were mainly focused on telling stories about the Buddhist experience in Myanmar, we would talk to Burmese Buddhists who would share their background of practice or tradition. And we spoke to many foreigners who sometimes identified as Buddhist and sometimes didn't, but in most cases, were intensively practicing some kind of meditation or tradition of some kind while they were here, or were a monastic. And so I'm really curious to get your view as a Burmese national and a kitchen, ethnic group and a non Buddhists that was living in and integrating into a Buddhist society, in school and in your community. And then later on, what was that experience, like being an outsider looking in, on the way that Buddhism was manifesting in the community and national ways in education, etc?
Maw Htun Aung 08:24
Yeah. I mean, I, like I said, you know, we all went under, like, say, education system. So I don't think there is an explicit, you know, order or instruction by the Ministry of Education to practice, you know, like Buddhism at school, but it was because most of the teachers and headmaster are are Buddhists, and, and especially, like, when, when I grew up, like, I think that's under the military dictatorship, and the military is also you know, trying to protect their image as the guardian of Buddhism. So, I think they unknowingly you know, like trying to pass down the the, the instructions, you know, although this is not law, they would say that the schools are required to have like, Buddhist chanting and prayers in the morning before all the classes you know, begin and then you know, like, they have to do all these you know, Buddhist religious ceremonies like was a roving ceremony and also the the injured you know, like the light festival and all these, you know, libraries, observance days, you know, our practice at stake school. So growing up in this kind of system. I wasn't really I mean, I disturbed because most of the teachers also respect you know, has respect for the The different religion. So, I was exempted, you know, like from most of the Buddhist religious activities, but that is I cannot represent all the other lifestyle school because my school was considered like one of the best vesco in Myanmar in terms of basic education. So, we have like lots of teachers that are actually tolerant and progressive. But there are some other schools you know, like, which, which might not be so fortunate students, you know, who might not be so fortunate like me, so they may feel like, uncomfortable, you know, like blending in, but in my case, you know, I think I, I blended in Well, with, you know, with these kind of, like Buddhist practices at school,
Host 10:57
right, so it sounds like where you were living, where you're going to school, it was more of a progressive, diverse community where you were able to be who you were, from your own background and be And by and large, be accepted into, into that community. So that's, that's really great. As you left that school, and you started to enter a wider society with whether that was work or or socially or just in the just getting around the city itself or any any other environment you found yourself in? How did that strike you as being being a minority, both ethnically and religiously outside of the dominant religion and background? Did what what was your experience at that point? Was it similar to as you were in school or were there difficulties?
Maw Htun Aung 11:49
Oh, I mean, it is also the same like in, in Myanmar, like, if you go to the offices, you know, government offices or public spaces, you cannot escape from the influence of Buddhism, for instance, in the government offices, whether you see the smallest units in the world and their villages, they work administration office will have like, Buddha statue, and you know, like, they have a little shrine, you know, like, that is part, you know, like, about, you know, like, that is stacked against a war. And that is a usual sin. So, you, you can't really, you know, I escaped, you know, from, from public life, about the influence of, you know, Buddhism, so, but I think that doesn't bother me, but what bothered me was more on the policy and also the very subtle discrimination, you know, like that some people face in the government, you know, like entering government services, and also Yeah, in, in the social or, like, legal, legal status, you know, that that's what bother me, but the influence of, you know, Buddhists and the society does not bother me, but some people wanted to, you know, like, go a step further. They wanted to make, they wanted to bring, you know, like Buddhism into the, into the, the legal, soccer or the, they wanted to codify the influence of, you know, Buddhism into the society, I think that's where it becomes, you know, problematic.
Host 13:47
Can you give some examples of how that's happened?
Maw Htun Aung 13:49
Yeah, there are two kinds that happen, you know, like one one is very sectoral and you know, you don't because because in the government services, you know, if you are coming from minority and also minority voting ethnicity, and also you know, religious minority, then you have the double minority status, you know, that means that your promotion is not likely to come very quickly compared to your peers. So, that is not codify, but that is what the society or the your supervisor may practice because you hold different beliefs then then then then yours, this is very subtle, another, like more like, legally, you know, he coded, you know, it's, that encouraged these kinds of practices in and registrations, you know, they have like, we have a national, like, citizenship, you know, like scrutiny cards, but these cards, you know, you Looking at this code, like, immediately, you know, not just your, like, your name or date of birth, but you know, where you come from, and also what ethnicity and also what religions you are here to. So these are the things, you know, that cause, you know, a lot of discrimination in hiring. And also, you know, like, just for the authority, you know, encourage the behavior of discrimination. So that's in the legal, and also like, lately, you you have the, the Buddhist marriage, you know, like law, you know, like that. That is, you know, basically trying to help protect the Buddhist woman. But then, you know, if you actually assess the law, you know, like, there's, you find the element of element of, you know, codifying, you know, like, the influence of, you know, like Buddhism, in the Li in the law. So, these are the things you know, like that, that, that I, I saw, you know, like, are more problematic than the natural influence of Buddhism in the society.
Host 16:23
Right, right. It seems like, when the British were here, during colonial times, they really tried to categorize everyone put labels on everyone's background and keep them in separate boxes. And from what you're saying, it sounds like, that's been a practice that has been carried over as quite a bit in the current regime.
Maw Htun Aung 16:43
Yeah, probably because I do not know, like, I don't know what kind of, you know, citizenship card that the British has used. But the one that we're using right now is, I would say, pretty racist.
Host 16:57
Right. Right. So let's get back on your educational career path that you were getting into it just the beginning, you were mentioning how you came back from a university in Hong Kong, I believe it was in 2011, when the reforms just started, can you take us back to what was happening in the country and what you were doing at that time?
Maw Htun Aung 17:17
Yeah, I mean, after I finished my school, like a bachelor degree, and I started working in the humanitarian and development system, and what we call like, non government, you know, like, organization jobs, and then I realize, you know, it's, we really need to make our policy and law better, like if we want to a better country. So that's how I started more interested in the policy advocacy, meaning like advocating good policies, helping government to change the better law. And I got a chance to study in Hong Kong Polytechnic University in 2010. And right after I came back, and it was a good time, because the country has recently opened up and also, although it was not a fully democratic constitution, but it has a lot of elements of democratic, you know, practices, like checks and balances, you know, the legislative executive and also judiciary has been separated, and practice you know, different power, although the military holds like a privileged class and also has immunity. But that has created a lot of political institutions, you know, that make it possible for for citizens to be engaged in the making of policy that has influence in their daily lives. So I started working in the natural resource management and natural resource governance area, trying to mobilize the community as well as you know, providing technical system to the government, regarding of regarding what should they do with transparency and, you know, how can they, the day they get help, you know, like, by being transparent, you know, like, practicing transparent practices. So these are the things you know, like that I, that I've done when I came back from Hong Kong, and then I got another chance to study in the US in 2012, and 2014. At the corner, university, that time, I study public administrations in the knowing that that's, that's where I'm really interested and that's where I can be a big help in transforming my country into, into into the one that we all can be proud of. So, so I came back in 2015. And also Yeah, since then, I was helping an international organization as a country manager to advance you know, and support the government in transforming their public policy regarding natural resources and also public financial management.
Host 20:20
Can you share a bit more about what you mean by natural resources? What exactly were you advising? What was going on with natural resources at that time?
Maw Htun Aung 20:29
Yeah, I mean, just to go back a little bit about the context of the country, Yama is very rich in natural resources, meaning it has rich minerals. Like we I think we're the only country in the war that has the the high high quality gi you know, like j, which is pretty much sought after by Chinese people because of its historical and mythical values. And also we produce a lot of other like color stone like Ruby sapphires, and these are the top grades Oh, and also we have a lot of minerals like gold copper. So, we are pretty rich in that in addition to that, we have very some suitable number of like oil and gas also, and also natural forests, teak has been famous Burmese product for century, but although we have rich in natural resources, we have the structural problem, because these natural resources are endow in the ethnic area, because natural sources like what you find mostly in the mountain area, so that's where ethnic people, ethnic minority has inhabited that. So, the problem with natural resource extraction in Yama is that central government has been you know, extracting, you know, IDs, natural resources and sustaining the budget of the country, because the government budget half of them is coming from selling off those natural sources that light like, which I mentioned earlier, and then you know, although they have gotten all these you know, resources, half of them from the ethnic as next day, but if you look at the the development of these ethnic you know, like people and the region, it was completely different from from the plain region where majority of my people live, for instance, you know, the electricity, you know, until, like, recently, there is no electricity for most of the ethnos state, although, the central part of the country pretty much enjoy subsidized electricity, you know, and also government provided infrastructure, but that was not the case for the administrator and this has been going on for like, decades. So, as someone you know, who got really interested in in this kind of structural inequality, and I found that, you know, the Natural Resources Management is the one area that we can improve, if we can, you know, amend the structural injustice, you know, that exhibited in the natural resource management as well as in the, in the allocation of budget, we we can have a better system, you know, like that, a system that treats you know, like it citizen more equally, rather than, you know, systematically sidelining or discriminating the ethnic state. So, with that, that has really encouraged me to walk in these natural resource management and governance, because I believe that having a good system would definitely put us closer to peace and reconciliation in the future.
Host 24:09
Right. And so how did that work? Go when you were you were charged with looking at the policy on natural resources? Did you feel the progress was made in that area during the civilian government?
Maw Htun Aung 24:21
Yes, I mean, although not as much as you know, I would like to see but there is some progress like now you you we can track down you know, like how much of the resources has been extracted and also like how much money government is getting, like in terms of taxes and production sharing, and these information are now becoming online and no longer secrets before that, you know, like even talking about that. It's like a steak, steak secret and crimes, you know, like you could be arrested, you know, For talking about this kind of thing, but now it's no longer a secret, and everybody's can debate about, oh, this is not right, or, you know, like, this shouldn't be the case. So I think these are the the kind of visible development that I see, of course, you know, like, there is some obstacle, because to two decades of military installment of bureaucrats, you know, in their own liking, has really create a dysfunctional bureaucracy, you know, like, who will not look after the interests of the people, but look after the interests of the company companies, you know, who bribed, bribe them, or, you know, like the and so, we are basically, you know, helping the government to transform their own bureaucracies to become more akin to, you know, like, the needs of the local people, and we are helping government in terms of, you know, how can they make better decision about whether to grant a license or grant concessions to the company? So, yeah, I mean, there has been some small little gains in transparency, and also the change in policy and practices also visible, but it is far from over, and far from enough.
Host 26:26
Right, right. And why did you come to see natural resources as one of the main things that you want to be involved with, you mentioned how it connected to overall peace and stability, corruption, ethnic rights, it sounds like, to us this issue was really deserving of a primary focus in looking at overall government reform, is that fair to say?
Maw Htun Aung 26:48
Yeah, I mean, the first thing is because although I have to remind I mean people about when I say like, these, you know, like amending these natural resource management, would put us closer to peace and reconciliation, it doesn't mean that the natural resources are the primary cause of conflict in Myanmar, I can say that, you know, it is also fueling the conflict, but it is not the primary cause. But, you know, if you, if you study the conflict in Yemen, they all started from the political grievances lie, not having the autonomy, not not having the the say in the managing the resources, you know, and the people in the state. So, that is how the political grievances begin, but then, you know, you have the, the natural sources come into play, because the natural resources are exploited both by the government and as well as the ethnic arms organization. So, it also kind of like, prolong the the civil war situation, but then, you know, although these natural resources extracted and depleted, you don't see much of its benefit going to the people, but much of it is also planned or by the corrupt military bureaucrats, and and and the private sector So, so, it is not helping the people, you know, like, who live in these natural ritually, you know, Landau area, so the thinking was, like, if we can make it dry, if we can make these natural sources benefiting the people primarily, and then, you know, like, we have less of a chance to use natural resources as a driver of conflict, because we were are happy with the benefits that they receive from natural sources. And then, and they don't see this as a primary driver of conflict. So that will really help the, the political stakeholders in in, you know, like talking about peace and reconciliation in the future federal Democratic Union.
Host 29:15
Sounds like that was quite a job you could out for yourself. sounds quite difficult, but all those competing interests to figure out a way forward with so many big players with a lot at stake and wanting to find some way to create peace and stability and also benefit the people actually living there.
Maw Htun Aung 29:34
Yeah, yeah. It was, it was. It was not political, but not directly, but actually, it is very much to do with politics at the end, you know, about who gets what and, you know, like, how much that's trying to figure that out in a technical way. And making sure that you know, like there is justice in the distribution. Yeah, I mean, it's also very interesting. And yeah, high risk, high return kind of work.
Host 30:09
What were the risks?
Maw Htun Aung 30:10
I mean, the risk? Like people, yeah, there is also, you know, many, like activists on the ground. Sometimes they're adaptive, because they speak out against the natural resource extractions in the area, and also the authority or the militias. You know, Yama has still a lot of militias who are involved in these natural resource extracting businesses. So what, when what you said, and you know, what you did, if, if those action hurts their interests, and then you are likely to become a target, you know, so in in a way that, you know, you you have political enemy, as well as, you know, a real enemy on the ground, by advocating for the better policy. So, but then, you know, like, like I said, you know, if, if there is a good, you know, natural source governance, and then when people are seeing the benefits of natural resources, and when they don't see this as a driver of conflict, and then you know, that you have the you you have been, you know, like on the part of solving century Oh, like Myanmar, conflict, conflict and civil war. So that's what I mean by high risk and high reward.
Host 31:38
Yeah, that's certainly high risk, high reward. So high risk in terms of putting yourself between very powerful stakeholders with a lot to lose, and high reward in terms of reversing decades or century long conflict that hasn't been sorted out. And that is damaging the people being affected by it. So that was quite a high wire act without a net that you were walking through, was in your position did? Did you feel safe? Or were just just simply by being an advisor, were you also somewhat at risk, given the high stakes involved?
Maw Htun Aung 32:16
Um, if if I'm doing this kind of job under military dictatorship, I wouldn't feel safe. And but when I was working for for the last eight years, it was under the context of like, semi civilian government. So it was relatively safe, engaging, you know, like with these kind of policy debate with government officials, and as well as some ethnic arms organizations. But if I were to do this, again, in this, in this kind of, like, coop and also military dictatorship, I wouldn't feel safe.
Host 32:59
Yeah, yeah. I mean, isn't that true of so many people, no matter what their profession is, no matter what it was, they were doing. I mean, hi, after the country opened up, just speaking personally, I undertook a project to just learn about some of the different meditation traditions just to learn about what different monks were teaching and what their historical traditions were to be able to tell foreigners that were coming. So they knew which monk was teaching what and what his history was, and where they can go to practice and various sites that were of historical importance. This is not something that has nearly the degree of sensitivity of what you're talking about. And then also, after that, I went on to lead pilgrimages to take meditators, pilgrims that were coming to see these sacred sites and to meditate to give Donna to give robes to monks as part of their their pure, their spiritual journey and their pilgrimage when they were here, and even things like this, that were really in no way sensitive, nothing compared to what you were doing. Those were activities I never would think of doing before 2012 and so once things opened up, you did see a lot of people starting to whether they were growing, you know, Mom and Pop businesses or they were going into the nonprofit sector or going into some kind of ecotourism or whatever it was, they're they're really these last eight years or whatever it's been there's really been this extraordinary blossoming taking place of people exploring their own passions and bringing that into what was on track to be multilayered society. Yeah.
Maw Htun Aung 34:31
But even I think because like, you are someone who has been practicing meditation and and spreading that I think, you know, that even in in the Buddhist culture in Myanmar, and they, they they tend to be pretty strict. Because Because there is like state sanction, you know, like Sangha organizations, and other than that, I think they they wouldn't ask Sam, you know, I'm sure that you are aware of that some, some people are also in prison because of the different Buddhists, you know, and I believe that the whole, but yeah, so that's basically I think under the dictatorship or kind of like closed system the ideas, you know, like that, that are different from the one practice by the authority, and they would see this as a threat, you know, like they wouldn't see this as another options or things that are debatable to expand the knowledge horizont. So, I think that's, that's true under dictatorship, you know, not just for the sensitive or in, you know, like, normal war, you know, everything. If they see that this is different from what they're doing, and they see this, they immediately thought this is a threat.
Host 35:56
Yeah, no, that's, that's very true. And I can give you two examples in my recent interviews that illustrate that just within Buddhism alone, one of them we talk to the boss, ADA, who has through his monastery, and his mission has really been pushing the boundaries of what a monk in a monastery could do. And up until the reforms, they were really every day, it was really a struggle, they didn't know if they were going to be able to survive one day to the next. And, and they weren't able to share what they were doing and how they were helping people on the margins of the community. Because those just weren't things that were very acceptable to talk about. But once things started to open up, and they had that freedom, they were able to properly share and expand on what it was they were doing. And more people learned more people want to join, wanted to support, give donation, and so their mission was able to expand only in a free society. And the second example, I was speaking to a monk last week, and he was referencing, he does a lot of teaching and discourses. And he was referencing how the ability of critical thought and the free exploration of ideas, even non sensitive ideas, just ideas about grasping religious thought or spiritual instruction of some form, that he's seen a profound shift after the country started to open up because there was just in the students, there was this greater expansion, ability, comfort of being able to not just remotely hear things and have to memorize them and follow some very strict protocol, but to be able to have a freer exchange of ideas and a free year, consideration critical thought of ideas even within one's own mind. Yeah, so let's move on from you were working in natural resources for some time, what, what year, did you change your position from advising on that? And what did you do next?
Maw Htun Aung 37:52
Yeah, I mean, for the last five years, until 2020, I was deeply involved in the reform of the natural resource, you know, like governance inside the country. So I work with the government, and I also work with the civil society organizations, mobilizing on the ground, you know, like to help change the way we manage our natural sources. And then, you know, I started to realize that I am an outsider. And also, I'm been working with the Parliament and the government, but I'm seeing an outsider. So there is, there is some, you know, like, missing parts of that, you know, like, puzzle that, if I am an insider, I will be able to exert, like more influence and direct more changes. So, that's, that's when I thought of, you know, entering the politics and holding an office position in the legislative chamber. So I decided, maybe, we could considering reflecting on my life, the last past five years where I intensively work with the government and also all stakeholders. There are things that, you know, I could do, you know, if I become legislative members, more effectively than as an NGO managers, you know, like working from outside, so, that's why, and also, I was about the right age, you know, because I didn't like the fact that, you know, many of the legislative members are in their retirement age, you know, I did not want, you know, my best years, you know, to be to be invested in the private sector and then enter into the public service only when, when I got retired from the best of my life. So that's also brought me to, to enter into politics in my prime time. So I decided, I will run for the office and then I enter into Shan nationalities like for democracy, which is Shan at NEC political parties. And the second largest political parties after National League for Democracy in Yama. The reason and when I when I choose, you know, like SNL de to be my running body and running me, and then many people ask me the question, because as you know that Yama is often associated with strongly associated with politics, the politics of identity, you know, like, who you are, which ethnicity and what kind of religions you adhere to, and people would only there is some belief that people will only vote to someone, you know, to whom they can relate to, in terms of their own identity. And, but for me, I mean, like someone, you know, who believe in the progressive politics, I do not believe that, in politics, there should be a strong adherence to reference to identities such as you know, like, age, gender, ethnicity, religion, someone, you know, like the constituent should for someone who has married, married, who's married, you know, will, will serve the purpose of their constituency. So that's my, my belief. And, and also, with that, when I when I, when I talked with the leaders from the party, and they were also thinking the same, they were thinking of transforming, and the parties into a more policy base and policy oriented political party instead of, you know, based on the ethnic identity alone. So with that, I run for the office in 2020. election, from Northern Cheyenne, which is also a very diverse area, where you find a lot of ethnic from the chin, Shan, Dong, and also ethnic Chinese are there. So, yeah, that's how I got into the, the politics and the election in the last year.
Host 42:27
Yeah, and you're also pretty young, aren't you? most politicians in Myanmar are usually of an older age. Is that true?
Maw Htun Aung 42:35
Well, I was in the Yeah, of course, I will. I will be in the younger age group, but I don't think I am actually that young compared to the politicians, you know, like, that are rising up in the Euro, or in the US or elsewhere, I think. Yeah. But yeah, considered to me are my standards, you know, I would be in the younger age.
Host 42:57
Yeah, I was speaking to journalists last week. And she was saying something like, you know, and you're, you're up until you 35 or 40, you're still very much considered as a youth. And, oh, I
Maw Htun Aung 43:09
mean, I'd agree because I think that also like, a traditional, you know, traditions in Myanmar, like, where age, like, age, like, equalized with wisdom. So which, to me is like in this kind of, like, information communication age, that was like, pretty, pretty much questionable. But, you know, you, you'll see the structural structural limitation for young people to enter into the politics like, unless you are like, 25, you cannot run for the lower house. And for upper house, you have to be like 30. And in order to become like, cabinet member, like, you have to become at least 35 if you want to be a minister, and then you have to meet the threshold of like, 40 years, stuff like that. So these are the structural limits, also imposed by the Constitution, as far as I think these all came from the traditional believes, you know, like in Myanmar society,
Host 44:14
right, right. So, tell us a bit about your campaign, how did that go? And what was the result?
Maw Htun Aung 44:19
The campaign was a success. Because I, I liked I like I expected, you know, like people, I feel like people, people want a progressive politics, you know, like that or not based on identity too much, but based on the merit of the candidate, you know, like that they can rely on and in their constituency. I was able to, like, talk with many remote areas, you know, like, villagers, and also communities. But yeah, The understanding of the politic is no different from from the people from the city, you know, like, because there is a misnomer that people thought that you know, people from the rural area are not interested in politics, no, actually that is that is wrong. When I do campaigning, I realized that that is wrong. And also, I did also focus a lot on the online campaign social media campaign because of the COVID-19 situation, where I cannot really go out and meet with the, with the constituency, or the meeting has been limited in number. So, I have to focus on the the online campaigning, although the internet penetration has been not that great in in in the constituencies that I campaign, but nonetheless, I think there was a successful online campaign and I got a lot of recognitions and encouragement from, from the voters. So that was really encouraging. And also amazingly, you know, like, Yeah, I got the experience of what, what is to be a politician. So, like, throughout these campaigning periods, you know, you I, I have, I don't have to worry about what to eat or, you know, like, or, like my, because most of them, you know, volunteers. And also, you have a lot of like, like, people, you know, donations, taking care of their own expenses. So, it was, it was really, for me, like coming from different war, and, you know, learning about how the politics played out in your mind how the campaigning work, it's, it's really an experience of a lifetime. But unfortunately, I did not win that seat outright. I come in second, I'm the first one in the, in the competition that I'm in. But I also witnessed a lot of light cheating, and also, before my eyes, you know, and also a lot of voting irregularities after we done some of the analysis of the vote. So we decided so I decided to pursue the legal remedy in order to address these issues. So for the last three months, I've been working on like, gathering evidence, you know, and opening cases in the police stations as well as as well as putting a complaint in the Union election tribunal and waiting for the the trial date and then you know, like in the first of February, this military coup happened so I was basically yeah in limbo.
Host 48:23
Can you give us an example of some of the types of cheating that you witnessed
Maw Htun Aung 48:28
um, for instance, like there's a kind of like visible vote buying when someone would be standing in front of the polling stations with a lot of voting identification slip, which are distributed to the community. So I don't know like how she gather all these folding slips. But they are also you know, bringing people from all over the cities you know, like, some has voted already but they are bringing these kind of people again, to vote again. So, and then you know, what I when I checked, you know, the, the fingers, some of them has been, you know, like cover with like a plaster. Just to hide, you know, like, because like after voting like, you have to dip in the ink to mark that you have voted. So some some people you know, like that I that I caught, they try to cover the like, ink stain finger, little finger with the with the plaster. So, that is how I knew that these guys have already voted but they came in because there was a broker in front of the polling stations. You know, bringing people again, you know, who has done event folding, some ob bought some crypto like they were brought in. And then they try to, you know, like double or triple folk. So that's how I caught, you know, in one pooling session. And also there are like instances where in some like remote voting stations, you have like over voting, meaning like, according to the the voting registry and the voter registries, you have like 200 eligible voters in that village, but then, you know, like, when the final tally came in, and then you have like, 400 people, you know, like, voted from that village, you know, which is also, you know, like breaking the law. And also, that is considered like cheating. So, how could a village you know, like, who has 200 registered voter, voted, you know, like 400 votes, you know, like in the final tally. So, that's how we found out, you know, has been widespread, you know, like vote cheating in my constituency. And we decided to pursue the legal remedy. back then.
Host 51:09
And who did you observe the vote was cheating in favor of
Maw Htun Aung 51:16
that the voting, the one who won in my constituency is from another ethnic party, other than not NLD? So it was? Yeah, so I wouldn't say that, you know, or I do not have evidence that that person or that party has orchestrated the voting, what we observe is like, at the polling station level, there's a massive, you know, like, you know, double voting, and also over voting. Yes, stuff like that.
Host 51:55
So you're not sure exactly who was behind it?
Maw Htun Aung 51:59
No, I do not have. I mean, of course, I can guess, but I do not have the legal evidence, or the linkages. You know, like these four, rigging has been done by that, you know, individual or that party.
Host 52:14
Right. Right. And you said, you then went on to pursue legal remedies, up through February 1, how did that process go?
Maw Htun Aung 52:23
Yeah, it was a process of gathering evidence, you know, for almost three months, right after the election in November 8 2020. So right after that, you know, I and my volunteer team worked very hard, you know, gathering evidence on the ground, and as well as doing analysis of the whole township and also prepare a complaint, a legal complaint letter, because it was, according to the law, like we can pursue a legal remedy as a civil case, you know, we can ask the court to to anneal the results, that that is established right now, because I am, I am the only, like, I am the word he, you know, like winner, not the, not the other one. So, in order to prove that case, I have to gather a lot of evidence and submit that to the court. And so that I did in the past three months, and finally, we The case was accepted. And also, we're waiting for the trial. And also, like the court, you know, investigation. But then like I said, in in first of February, there was a military coup, suggesting there was a voting irregularities and voter frauds. Yeah, so that's the situation I'm in at the moment.
Host 53:59
So where does that leave this? bipm? somewhat of a silly question. But just to be clear with it, where does that leave your status and pursuing legal remedies that there was vote cheating in the wake six weeks into a military coup?
Maw Htun Aung 54:16
Um, so far, I did not have any contact from the military haunter about you know, what are they doing with a case or you know, like, or whether, because they are so busy, you know, like setting a frame to accuse, you know, the NLD of like, massive vote cheating, and stuff like that. But according to my experience, I think they don't they have no legal evidence and as well as not following and the law. So I don't think they'll be able to prove that there is a there is a voting irregularities or libel cheating by NLD
Host 55:00
right and where does that leave your case
Maw Htun Aung 55:05
i if if the military junta has decided to look at the cases you know because right now you have the the new election commissioners installed by the military junta so they might look at my case again but i have decided that you know if that is the case i will withdrawn the case because i will not put my case you know like under the consideration of this military hunter because one i do not support the coop and also i do not trust that there is integrity or honesty in the move you know like installing a new election commissioner against against a democratically elected government
Host 55:56
right i want to go back to something you were saying you were describing that you were campaigning with progressive policies and i have an idea of what progressive policies mean in my country it might be something slightly different in myanmar so can you describe a bit what you mean by the progressive policies that you were promoting as a candidate
Maw Htun Aung 56:19
well i mean i in yama like i said i believe in the politics you know that does not discriminate based on gender age religion ethnicities so whenever i meet with my constituency and set out the policies that i wanted to engage with like based on this philosophy i have always laid out my policy option for instance in terms of citizenship you know that policy that our country has so you know like practicing so much outdated you know by law and that is one area that i would say that you know in in the policy of citizenship i would hold on to like one citizen so there will not be like second class citizens because in myanmar there's a lot of the cases like even though you're born in yama that you're not you're not you're not a first class citizen and you're not entitled to certain rights so i feel like this is not the case and this is not how we build the nation so that's you know what i whenever i got asked you know like these kind of questions that that is like i laid out my policy yeah i think that that way people understand you know like what is good politics you know
Host 57:48
right and what kind of response were you getting from the people when you were meeting when you're on the campaign trail or i guess the virtual campaign trail with COVID
Maw Htun Aung 57:57
yeah many people thought that you know like myanmar people will be conservative and and you know like they will follow the extreme you know like like kind of like ideas but actually that's not true you know when i when i talk about like my my visions on education my vision on citizenships and my vision on what kind of you know like countries that i would like to have in the future pretty much of all the people you know that are taught to accept that the idea of progressiveness you know nobody want to be discriminated a you know like based on religion and ethnicities you know everyone wanted to be treated the same they wanted the relationship between the state and citizens as more you know like based on merit rather than you know like all these you know identities
Host 58:57
right right so let's move to the hell that these last six weeks have been since february 1 what have you been doing where have you been involved
Maw Htun Aung 59:07
i mean last six weeks have been like a nightmare everyday is a nightmare for like everyone living inside the country people but the good thing is that people woke up from the dreams and people woke up from the illusions that you know relying on like or like one leaders is not going to do any good for the country's democratic journey so i think people have been realizing that and mobilizing working you know collaboratively across the board i think these are the good side of these you know like whose story and now like people have a common position that that is so clear that nobody would accept the military dictatorship in the future So everybody's want to end and these military dictatorship now. So I think that's, that's, that's a good thing about that. And the bad thing is like, nobody is safe, you know, the military, and the hunters, you know, soldiers and police would claim at NIH day, and then they will shoot people out in broad daylight, you know, under the, under the watchful eyes of the citizen as well as social media and under all camera, I mean, like they would call bloodedly, you know, murder, you know, like people on the street, they would randomly shoot, you know, anyone passing by. And so this is like, basically, it's like a slaughterhouse situation, you know, on the street, you know, on the street, not just in Yangon, but every corner, corner of the city, and at night, you know, like they would, they would, they would read it, you know, houses and also capture people and sometime bodies are returned the next morning, the dead bodies are eaten. And then also if you observe that body and there is like, torture, signs of torture, and, and lots of inhumane treatment of the body. So these are the situation at last last six weeks, and people have been calling for, like, international communities intervention, because the brutality and barbaric acts of the army and the soldiers, police unbearable. And, and, and also like this is happening in, in everybody's, you know, like watchful eye. So, yeah, that's pretty much the like, to some of the the last, you know, six week after coup.
Host 1:02:01
Right? And what have you been doing? personally? How have you been involved these last six weeks?
Maw Htun Aung 1:02:06
Yeah, I've been, you know, helping organizations, you know, like, with the advising some organization, with the political options, you know, like that they can pursue, or because of security reason, you know, I couldn't mention the name of the organizations, you know, either I'm involved or that I'm helping with, but I've been, you know, using my, my skills of, you know, being able to analyze situation, and also providing options and advice. So, I've been using that a lot, and helping organizations that are involved in the protest movement in other life situation,
Host 1:02:52
right. And I understand you can't name the organizations you're involved with, I wouldn't want you to, if you put anyone or anything at risk, I wonder if you would feel comfortable describing what it is you're advising the protest movement on what issues are coming to you that are their questions, you don't have to obviously don't have to give exactly what the advice is, either, because that would also put people at risk, but generally, what kinds of concerns they're coming with, and where you're helping them to find solutions.
Maw Htun Aung 1:03:24
I mean, people, I mean, people are like, are off guard, because of this situation, because we never expected that this would happen. Because even if you look at, you know, why the military conducted a military coup, there is no logical reason, because they are doing just fine under these students and constitution. So many people, you know, I wanted to find out, like, why, why this happened? And, you know, what can we do? So, most of my advice, I've been analyzing the situation and also providing advice on the way forward, you know, like, what are the options, you know, like that whole for the country, if we will continue to be like that? And also what, what a political agenda, you know, we should pursue, so this kind of stuff, you know, in terms relating to political agenda, and also and how can we get there, you know, like, what are the practical ways of, you know, achieving our objective. So, so that's the area that I'm involved in.
Host 1:04:34
Yeah. And concerning that area, is there anything you can share with us in terms of what your thoughts are on how we can move forward and how we can get out of this present moment and build something better than just about anything is better than where we're at now, but how? How you see a productive way forward out of this mess?
Maw Htun Aung 1:04:55
Yeah, many people are discouraged, you know, when they don't see the clear path. apart so i think for us is one thing is known getting very clear because although we have political differences with nld and also an early become a symbol of oppressions you know like in in the past five years but now people are understanding that we have a common enemy which is a military dictatorships you know to end their systems so that is origin and and united you know uniting force for everyone so we need to exploit this opportunity because that's not going to come come back you know this unfortunately not going to come back easily in the future so so so yeah i think we should focus all our energy you know into ending this military dictatorship you know once and for all and then you know like later on we can sell there are differences in politics and differences in how we perceive the country should be and that that can that that are up for debate and and consultations you know but now what is the origin and most needed is like how do we end the military dictatorship i think that should be our common goal and focus for the moment instead of like discussing you know like other other like more divisive issues so the the political stakeholders on the ground should focus on how do we end this you know military dictatorship at the moment so that we we can have a future that is more open and progress
Host 1:06:52
right right and is that what you're finding among the people involved is there that kind of unity and looking at the moment not beyond what people are trying to build and who gets what and how they work together but more just on the present moment no matter what background people are coming from that they are looking to work together and create unity against this common enemy at this time
Maw Htun Aung 1:07:15
yeah i think people are now realizing that you know although we have political differences you know we have a common enemy or common you know like system that we dislike so so i think that is uniting you know like different groups and and different political stakeholders so yeah i believe that's uniting people
Host 1:07:43
right and looking at this present moment and what's going on with this crisis i want to ask you what stands out to you i know that's kind of a difficult question to answer because it seems like every day something new is standing out and six weeks i felt like six years but in looking back with all of your background all of your educational training all of your experience your knowledge inside and out of myanmar of politics of ethnicity military everything else knowing all of that and seeing how things have progressed the last six weeks what are some of the things that stood out or surprised you
Maw Htun Aung 1:08:23
and i'm surprised by the determination of the people you know like from all walks of life normally my history you know like protests happened but then you know like when the protests are violently suppressed with gun and they seem to tone down but like for the six weeks you know like the government has been using you know like lethal force you know like dispersing using live ammunition they have been so brutal and inhumane but i was so surprised that people stand still and you know like demanding peacefully of you know like what they want and also like no sign of abating these kind of protests anytime soon you know that is amazing and and you know that is the most profound facts you know like that that about these movements
Host 1:09:20
right right and what do you think is the role of religious figures now we've seen monks at in some cases actually stand between the protesters and the military there's the famous image in michonne on your hometown of the catholic nun and rose new tongue i think her name is who similarly tried to intervene in the military attack on civilians different religious figures have taken different tactics as well what is your view on what role religion and religious figures should play at this time
Maw Htun Aung 1:09:56
yeah i think i although i'm really more On the you know, incline on the secure state, but I believe that religion has a role to play in the society, especially in terms of, you know, personal values and also spiritual values. I think that's where the religious, you know, like leaders can influence, you know, like your followers. And yeah, they have a duty to stick out the truth, you know, like about what is right and what is wrong? And what is moral and what is immoral. Unless you speak out, you know, people are people are some people will be ambiguous, you know, in making decision, so, when they speak out, I think it's much clearer for the followers, you know, like to pursue what is just and what is not. And, and, and I think having a religious leaders standing up for the, you know, like, cause together with the people, it means a lot, because people people, you know, are spiritually secure. And also, like, they knew that, you know, this is like, what they are doing is just cause and also it can persuade, you know, like, some people, you know, who are actually, you know, like, like, from the other side, like, who, you know, like, to practice, you know, like, the, you know, like the religion and when their religions, the leaders of that religion is, you know, asking, encouraging them, you know, like to join the cause of justice, you know, like they, they, they might change your mind. So, yeah, I think it is really important.
Host 1:11:53
Yeah, well, they're the moral authority, and so they have a chance to use that moral authority in a very wholesome way at this time.
Maw Htun Aung 1:12:01
Yeah, definitely.
Host 1:12:03
Right. Right. And how about yourself? Are you taking any precautions for your own safety?
Maw Htun Aung 1:12:08
Well, my, my own precautions, you know, I'm taking that, you know, because, yeah, about, like, but, but like I said, you know, nobody inside the country right now is safe, because you could be arbitrarily arrested on the street while you're trying to buy your milk and, or you're trying to do grocery shopping, or you could be arrested at home. And there is no, you know, like, reasons, you know, legal reasons, you know, why they would use, you know, they can just arrest you, anytime they want. So, of course, you know, I am monitoring the situation, where the arrest, you know, soccer, whether the arrest, soccer is coming closer to me or not, you know, like, that's what I'm observing. And if that is the case, then our, I hope I will be able to, you know, like, take shelter in some somewhere safe. on time. Yes. So that's, that's how I'm taking care of my security.
Host 1:13:22
Right? Yeah, through all this talk of the terror that Burmese people are under right now for their own lives and their right and their safety, I think, background of that is just the mental trauma that's going on and the mental weight, this is causing them to have to live like this day after day,
Maw Htun Aung 1:13:41
I think we have to do a lot of work after like in terms of PTSD, post traumatic, you know, counseling, because, basically, you know, the army and the police has terrorized the whole population by by gunfire, you know, like grenade fire and all these things, you know, it's like, like a better fee, you know, so I'm particularly worried for older people, and also like young, young, young children, you know, like who myself for traumatic experience, you know, because of this
Host 1:14:17
right, and currently, the movement is animated by non violence, the protesters have really adhered to this as much as possible. How long do you think that's viable for Do you think that's a value that should be held on to you consistently through this, or do you think other options should be explored?
Maw Htun Aung 1:14:37
I mean, for the protesters and the peaceful protest, like they should continue with non violence tactic, but with the emphasis on self defense, you know, like we are, we have the right to self defense, you know, like, if the, you know, like hunter forces are using lethal force against the protester. So it's not, you know, like, not that you don't like You will give up your life so easily, you know that we have to fight for our life. So that is our right. So that was my preferred option. But on the other hand, like when the political, you know, our genders becoming clearer and more concrete, I think we have other options, you know, available. But mean, why I think nonviolent protests, you know, with the self defense is we have,
Host 1:15:29
right, right. So many of the people listening to this are outside of me and my other people who care tremendously about what's happening there and want to help in any way they can. So one of the things that I've been asking every guest we talked to, that's on the ground there, because they are in the best position to be able to speak to what is happening, how they're feeling, and what they need, for those listening outside of your country that are caring about this issue and want to help in some way, but just don't know what to do. What would you say to them? What is it that they can do from the comfort, the safety, the freedoms of their own homes and country to support you and your people right now.
Maw Htun Aung 1:16:12
I mean, first of all, like my, I would appreciate, you know, like, your kindness in remembering us. And there are many ways that that can help, you know, like, people of Myanmar at the moment, I think the first and dearest thing is like, remember us in your daily prayer, and also your daily, you know, like meditations, and, you know, like, sending positive energy, or whatever, you know, like, that you're doing, you know, like, include us. And the second is like, standing in solidarity, if you find local Burmese people group, and try to, you know, organize something, you know, like that encourage, you know, like the people on the ground, because, because that is definitely, you know, like, really heartwarming, and also really boost a moral on the ground, regardless of you know, where you are, you know, like, what kind of activities you do, if you're standing in solidarity with the suffering, understanding, you know, like off of the Pythagorean Yama, that means a lot to us. So please do that. And also, the third is like, if you are financially able to do that, I think there are many organization now set up to help me. And also, I am worried, you know, like, in the next few months, we will face some serious, you know, like, hunger, hunger out of these, you know, like, these, these counts, you know, so I think we need to, we need to prepare, ready for that as far.
Host 1:17:50
Right, yeah. Thank you. So I know, there's so much going on these past six weeks. And even before that, the context that led up to that, and I've tried to ask questions that bring your background and your involvements, but there's so much happening that very well, there could have been things I've missed, is there anything that I haven't covered in my questions that you would like to make sure to be able to use this platform to talk about now?
Maw Htun Aung 1:18:20
I think this is I think, as some of you know, this is like, I would say that this is an awakening moment for Myanmar. Because you know, that in 2017, we have the Rohingya issues, and we also have the issues of oppressing, ethnic minority, you know, like with the military, during that time, I think majority of the people are aware that this kind of brutality and, and, and cruelty, you know, like happen in the minority area, but now, you know, like, it's happening in broad daylight in this big city. So, they realize that they have been lied by the military and the state, you know, all along. So people are willing to admit that, you know, like, they have been wrong in the past. So, I think this is also the moment like, not just for the political revolution, I think, a renewal of, you know, like humanity, and the values, you know, like, that are enshrined in Buddhism, I think, this is a real moment, you know, like, that really transform a nation so, so please help us you know, like, so that we can have a better and new Myanmar, that are compassionate, and that that are really holding and to the humanity. And also, like, stand tall as real democratic, you know, like countries in Asia.
Host 1:19:53
Right. I mean, as bad as things are going now if there is a way to transform and come out of this Myanmar could become a beacon of light to the world in terms of what it's how it's able to come together and what kinds of progressive polity policies and unity it can bring. And I didn't want to go back to what you just said reminds me. So you're talking about this kind of great awakening and communal coming together of looking back a reckoning of, of things that were done before thought before, that one is now owning, and making atonement for and such and breaking certain patterns and traditions of the past. And one thing that I've seen in terms of that happening is the sense of agency, I don't think I've ever seen such display of agency, certainly not in my experience in Myanmar, and possibly, rarely anywhere in the world of just the agency that everyone is feeling to say what they think to say how they feel, to take actions that they think need to be taken. And I wonder what you're seeing and what you're thinking about that? Do you see a newfound sense of agency that's happening across the country now?
Maw Htun Aung 1:21:13
I think like the new phone, you know, like, understanding is towards the minority, like, people have been confessing that they have a leaf in the wrong belief that ethnic people are rewarding, again, against, you know, against the central government. And also the Rohingya are not the citizen of Myanmar and that kind of thing. So people has been reversing your position and openly asking for apology. So I think this is this is very good for the nation building because the nation building process has never been completed in Myanmar. So I think this is the second chance we were given, and for the whole country, to build a country that is judged and treated equally to provided, you know, equal opportunity to every citizen.
Host 1:22:12
Right? Well, certainly, my thoughts are with you. And I'm sure the thoughts of the listeners are as well, and really want to thank you for coming on here and spending this time to be able to talk to us and share your opinions and views and your experience. And we wish you all the best and all the support going forward.
Maw Htun Aung 1:22:30
Thank you My pleasure, for being given this chance to talk to everyone who's listening to this podcast.
Host 1:22:45
Thank you for taking the time to listen to this show. I understand that this is an enormously difficult time for many people these days, myself included. And just the mere fact of staying informed is helping to keep a focus on this pertinent issue. And the only way that we can do our job of continuing to provide this content at this very critical time is through the support of generous donors, listeners like yourselves. So if you found this episode of value, and would like to see more shows like this on the current crisis, please consider making a donation to support our efforts. Either monthly pledges or one time donations are fully appreciated. And all funds go immediately to the production of more episodes like this one. Thank you deeply in advance and best wishes at this time. 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If you can't find our feed on your podcast player, please just let us know and we'll ensure it can be offered there in the future. Also, make sure to check out our website for a list of our complete episodes, including additional text videos and other information available at Insight myanmar.org. And I also invite you to take a look at our new nonprofit organization at better burma.org. There's certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a POST request specific questions and join in on discussions currently going on. On the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You're also most welcome to follow our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter accounts by the same name. If you're not on social media, feel free to message us directly at info at Insight myanmar.org. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that form here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible. Currently, our team consists of two sound engineers, Mike pink and Martin combs. There's of course, Kessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Kim pranskey helps with editing and a special Mongolian volunteer who was asked to remain anonymous does our social media templates. In light of the ongoing crisis in Myanmar, a number of volunteers have stepped in to lend a hand as well. And so we'd like to take this time to appreciate their effort and our time of need. And we're always on the lookout for more volunteers during this critical time. So if you'd like to contribute, definitely let us know. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us in arranging for the guests we've interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves, for agreeing to come on and share such personal powerful stories. Finally, we're immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We want to remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect the host or other podcast contributors. Please also note that as we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show. There's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us. This recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes a video audio written transcripts or excerpts of any episodes. Also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we're very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. If you would like to support our mission, we welcome your contribution. During this time of crisis, all donations now go towards supporting the protest movement in Myanmar to our new nonprofit better Burma. You may give by searching better Burma on paypal Venmo cash app, GoFundMe and patreon as well as via credit card at better burma.org slash donation. You can also give right on our Insight Myanmar website as all donations given there are directed towards the same fund. And with that, we're off to work on the next show. So see you next episode.
1:29:15
Yo yo
1:29:25
yo yo,
1:29:29
yo Right