Transcript: Episode #43: Understanding the Civil Disobedience Movement (CDM)

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Kyar Phyu, which appeared on March 30, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Host  00:17

I'm really excited to bring you the upcoming interview with a very special guest. You'll hear her discussing all the great and courageous work that she is currently engaged in. And if you feel inspired to help her with these efforts, please consider making a donation earmarked for her projects, or feel free to give a general donation that will support the wider movement in Myanmar. Our ongoing support is so helpful and appreciated by the Burmese people during these dark days. Simply go to Insight myanmar.org slash donation to contribute today. or stay tuned to the end of the episode to hear more options. Now, let's hear from that guest herself.

01:14

Good day. Hey, wait.

01:21

A Good Day.

Host  01:47

I'm here today talking to a researcher for civil servants reform, working for an international organization based in Yangon. So I'd like to thank you for joining us on what is already late night for you. I'm sure it was a full day. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here and talk to our audience.

Kyar Phyu  02:08

It's my pleasure to talk here.

Host  02:13

Yeah. So before we get into a bit about what you've been doing the last month and a half, I'd like to learn a little about you. Actually, I know about you. We've been friends for some time. But I would like my audience to know a little bit about you. So could you share a bit about whatever you're comfortable in telling about your background?

Kyar Phyu  02:35

Yeah. So I work for civil service reform, since 2000. Troll before the coop before, before this policy research work, mostly I'm working on the policy research about civil service policy research. And before this policy research work, I work for the community organization. I founded that organization and working for the woman and human being in general and also across across Myanmar.

Host  03:14

I know that doing all this work before you were able to get into some of the organizations and initiatives you're leading. You were also involved in different kinds of training and educational programs to get to that point. What kinds of educational and training courses Did you did you take in your development for doing this work, I

Kyar Phyu  03:41

think giving trainings to civil service civil servants across the departments in in Union civil service boat, and also different departments Training Institute. And also I have programs with the with my community organizations, I have program for the youth empowerment youth capacity building. So we have this huge Youth Development Program. You training. That's, that's, that's, that's the training I delivered to other people. For me, I also Yeah, for for my capacity, I also received the different different trainings. I mean, like, these days, mostly online training, I got mostly online learning a lot these days. But previously, I went to the US American Center or the UN also the US for for my master's degree.

Host  04:53

Right. Thanks for that. And training is quite a big word. It probably means different things to different people and you've been in volved in this profession, both as a participant, and then on the other side as a trainer in many different programs and capacities and initiatives. So, from your perspective, can you describe to you and to the work you've done? What is training? What does it mean to be a trainer?

Kyar Phyu  05:19

Because, you know, we, we need information, we need information in a knowledge. So mostly, I believe, I believe that trainee trainer is the it's like a teacher share sharing knowledge in, in experiences to other people. So, for example, this civil servants training, I talk about their local governments, local government, local governance, local governance issue in different countries, international experiences, they want to know about it, in how to apply back in their work. So that's, that's what we are doing training to them. That's what I share about the Indonesian local governance experience to them. So that's, that's, that's what I do for for the training, and also is similar to the youth youth capacity. Also, it's it's the same but different topic. for youth, it's more like the leadership or Yeah, like a scholarship or information sharing bet for the civil service is more like the specific subject for the public administration or public policy.

Host  06:48

Right, thanks for that. And that's really helpful to know about the objectives that you're trying to achieve in different training programs and courses and with different groups and it sounds quite active. I'm also curious about your belief in methodology as a trainer. So as you were leading these different training programs, in different sectors to different organizations to different people, and obviously, with different objectives, Is there like a general training methodology that you learned or that you believe in or that you try to implement through your training experiences and sessions that you lead?

Kyar Phyu  07:25

Yeah, definitely. Mostly my, my participants are adults, I mean, like civil servants, they, they are even older than me, they have more experience more working experience than me. So, I my training methodology is mostly that experiential learning. So, I have to extract their knowledge, first, we use a lot of discussion, you know, that I got feedback from civil servants a lot, they never got the discussion type training, mostly they are like lecture type training. So for me, I, I prefer discussion types. So they have to discuss about their experiences first in I, I will extract from their experiences we discussed again. So that's, that's kind of training training method. I'm doing mostly discussion and sharing experiences, and also case study.

Host  08:23

Right, that interest? That's interesting. So that brings us into a contrast with what might be considered the traditional Myanmar style of training that sounds like it's different from what you've learned and what you've done. So, can you describe what would be the traditional standard type of Myanmar training that would happen in sessions like these, and what is it that you're doing that is different from that

Kyar Phyu  08:51

formula, you know, we we, we, we are used to this lecture oriented type. So, within a cluster like 70 or 80 participants in only one lecture, talk about Talk, talk about the subject, no more discussion, no more sharing from the participants only lecture, only lectures, talk about, talk about this subject, and then participants have to memorize, memorize the subject and write it right brightest memorization in the exams. That's, that's how they pass all through the education that they pass the universities they pass the high school. So for for the civil servants, colleges, I teach I training, I give training. I used this discussion type training, and so they told me, they gave me feedback. This is the first time just discuss about their experiences. The other lecturers also use the same, I mean, this lecture oriented type, because the other other lecturers came from different universities. They are Professor mostly they are professors not like me. So mostly they're more traditional professors came to the civil servants college to deliver them training. And they didn't also provide the discussion, this discussion led discussion only just lecture. So for me, I prefer more like international training style. And so case study, I use a lot of case study and discussion. That's why they gave me feedback. They really like my training, to talk about their experiences during my during my lecture during my training.

Host  10:45

Yeah, that's, that's great. That's great to hear. And I think this is important to talk a little bit about before we get into the current events that are happening now. Because the more that we understand how you're approaching education and training, the better, we'll be equipped to look at what you're doing now. And its effectiveness. And as I hear you say that I'm curious, you know, you obviously come from a traditional Burmese style of education, that's how you were trained, and how you learned growing up. And that is still the model that is commonly seen today. And yet, when you are leading trainings, you are not following that model, you are doing something you are going into a traditional environment, but you are doing a very non traditional type of session, and you are having the participants discuss and share their background knowledge so that they're talking to each other instead of everything coming from you. You mentioned how you use case studies, you have experiencial learning so and what you're not doing is lecturing. So I'm curious, because you've had experience with both these types of models, and you're obviously preferring one type over another. What is it about this other model that we can call it non traditional model, at least in the Burmese educational and training system? What is it about this model that you find effective, and it makes you want to use it in these types of training sessions.

Kyar Phyu  12:14

I think it's because of the adult learning style. adults do not want to memorize any model and also you know, force of a softens, mostly they are older than me. And also they are they have more experienced working experiences. So usually I deliver lecture to the Deputy Director General. So they are like over 40 foot foot 45, or, at least at most 50. So most of them are older, and they have more experiences, but the only thing so they I don't want to give them lecture like like traditional style, traditional style is so, so boring. And also, I don't want them to make more rice. So I just want to I want them to learn from each other for civil servants for service offerings. If training different different departments, service officers from different departments came in, it is good to have discussion among them. So they understand each other about the department's problem. So I think that's why I use the that model for the civil servants.

Host  13:32

Right. Okay. Yeah, that's, that's interesting. And you've mentioned that you've been involved even before the coup quite a bit with civil servants, reform, training civil servants, bringing civil servants together from different departments, not to lecture them, but to have them learn from each other and facilitate that learning and small group discussion. Can you share a little bit more about what work you've been doing regarding this civil servant reform?

Kyar Phyu  13:57

Um, yeah, I, I am. I'm the trainer trainer of the civil service capacity development. So I deliver training for the union civil servants, boat, and also different different different departments institution, in NATO, and also in Django. And also, I wrote some reports on the institution's the department and their process, their process for the institutional reform.

Host  14:34

Right. And can you tell us a bit more about what that kind of reform was that you were seeking? So

Kyar Phyu  14:39

it's more like local government reforms in also like the service delivery reform, like municipal governments reform, and also what village administration reform in public financial management reform so that's, that's, that's how the reforms I'm working

Host  14:59

right That's certainly seems like a handful and how has that work been going? And prior to February 1,

Kyar Phyu  15:04

I mean, my interest is public administration. So I'm mostly working on the local government reform, and also public administration reform, the the administrative administration reform. But I also, you know, it's all connected. I mean, like they are different reforms, like economic reforms, administration reform, all are intertwined, because my my area is civil service reform. So I have to face I have to meet all the service up servants from different departments, like budget department, or the the municipal department or General Administration department, so I have to learn a little from each department, from them to deliver trainings to them.

Host  15:47

Now, of course, the focus on civil servants is in the top of the news, so many people are curious about these departments. And these people, you've had experience working there for years before it became this what's now an international focus. So can you share a bit about and I'm, again, I'm talking here about before February 1, your extensive experience with civil servants and in these different departments? Can you give a certain kind of description or flavor for what you saw the people you worked with, what your goals were, and the reforms you were trying to seek, and how some of these discussions and work was being carried out? Before the

Kyar Phyu  16:27

I had a very positive? Positive? Look, I mean, outlook for them. I mean, for the public sector reform, we tried very hard for like, less 10 plus years since 2012, because I joined this this workforce in 2012. So like, less, less, five years, during the NLD, government term, there, um, there were many progress of the service Service Office, especially the capacity training programs, so many capacity trainings, and also service civil service. Benefits and also pension. In also, I mean, like the the General Administration department, move from the the home fa, the military control, home FA to the civilian side, Union Government office. So all these positive progress made me really, you know, motivate motivated for, for this country, public sector reform, public administration reform before the coup. So I had, I had very positive, positive feeling for for the next government before the coup.

Host  17:57

Right. So you've basically been working with civil servants for almost 10 years. And you've been working with them as the government has changed through the last decade. And with your work and the way things were going, you were really quite hopeful and optimistic in the changes in the direction of the reforms that you were saying,

Kyar Phyu  18:17

Yes, Yes, that's correct. Yes.

Host  18:22

Right. I see. So that brings us closer to where we are now. And what's happened recently. Can you describe, if you remember those days, it wasn't so long ago, but they were quite challenging for all of us what? what you were doing what your reaction was just in the first couple days in the first week after the coup took place?

Kyar Phyu  18:45

I was so shocked. Because, you know, I had a very, I mean, that big, big dream, I mean, like, for this public sector reform, and also very optimistic about the government, to to, to improve the country. So when the coop happened, certainly, it makes, it was really shocked for me, and I couldn't handle it. I mean, many civil servants also called me and asked me what happened. They also don't understand they didn't understand what happened. So I also don't know how to explain to them. And, you know, they, many of us are very frustrated about that. The coop, and we can we can fit a week we can stand with it. Yeah.

Host  19:34

Right. And so, after it happened, you and many of your civil servants who were in touch with were quite shocked. What were those discussions like in the early days, I mean,

Kyar Phyu  19:43

for the first week, we just, we just shock in, we didn't know what to do. But then people start to think about the boycott, you know, services and think about the point Because they don't want to work for the military. So they told they called me and they told me they don't want to walk. So I also told them, yeah, okay, then we, we start to boycott the government, the military, that region, we start to boycott the region, that that's, you know, we started to discuss, yeah, in different different civil servants from different departments, they called me and they asked me, you know, about their feelings, they told me about their feelings and told me about the situation in the department in how they are. They did this, they felt they felt very rigid, rigid. Yeah, very, very rigid. And are they military, because the military totally controlled them, you know. So like, all their all the ministers suddenly disappear, where they were arrested. And then many deputy ministers were arrested. So they are also very, very sad about the situation. So that's all our reaction to the coop.

Host  21:07

Right? I can't imagine that. So you know, these people that are just civil servants going to work, suddenly their ministers are gone, disappeared, they don't know, their status, or their direction, or their boss. And everyone's trying to figure out what to do. And eventually, that leads to this boycott and the CDM. But in looking at the genesis of that movement, was were there several people that, you know, have that were kind of leading the thought that this was this was possible and encouraging others to make it a movement and join? Or was it just kind of a general sediment that many people felt at the same time, and just organically among the masses started to take shape? Same time,

Kyar Phyu  21:49

it's everyone, it's everyone I can say that, you know, so like, different departments. I mean, like, I talked to different civil servants, they all are like, yet, I mean, like, even in this movement, young people are very adept, like Generation Z. And also we am Generation Y, you know, not not to mentor too much here like them, but in their civil servants. Also, they are the same generation, see, civil servants are very active not to work for the regime. And so they started, and not they don't have the leader, you know, they are like, they know, they know it, they have to do it themselves. So they leave the walk themselves. So nobody asks them to do they just do it. So I think it's like everybody participate in this movement, not like one liter. Not like leaders, not like we are following the leaders. It's like we are doing ourselves to fight the regime.

Host  22:47

Right? So take me back to those early days when this these ideas and this feeling of not wanting to go to work started to form I mean, it must have been so new. It's like, what form does the boycott take? And how do the workers become safe? And who decides to leave? And where did they go? So what were some of the early considerations and conversations that you were having? At that point?

Kyar Phyu  23:11

I thought the civil servants and they told me they don't want to go to work. So they just had to take leave, leave from the walk they submitted, they submitted the live form, they submitted it in, in then they don't go, they didn't announce it like CDM CDM movement is later, but at the earliest stages, it's more like the leaf they submitted leave from their walk.

Host  23:35

I see. So we're a lot of people just on their own, just casually taking leave on their own. And those numbers just started to grow. Is

Kyar Phyu  23:42

that what happened? It happened like that. Yeah.

Host  23:46

Right. And then how did that casual individual leave taking morph into what became a movement of CDM? How did that transition take place?

Kyar Phyu  23:56

It's after the doctors boycott, the medical doctors boycott calling for the CDM so many civil servants trying it before that doctors boycotts people start to take leave civil servants start to take the from the walk.

Host  24:18

Right and then what was your role in all of this as you were talking to civil servants that you were trained about their individual leave taking and then as the doctors then called on a wider movement, and people started to look at joining What was your role throughout this?

Kyar Phyu  24:34

Um, I'm just helping them. So I know many of this. I know many of them because of my training experiences with them. We are very I mean, we are very friendly they can share with me what happened to them easily. So they call me just like a teacher in the ask me for suggestion. What to do, how to take leave. I also studied about the civil servants last data, they asked me how to take leave, you know, in so this thing you know, and also the consequences of the CDM movement, what will happen next, if they got the fire or if they got the if they don't get the they don't get the salaries, things like that, you know, they have to give back to their houses or cars. So many people ask me for suggestions, what what, especially the laws that civil servants law, they asked me specifically about business, then the the articles of the law and how to accuse them if they don't go to the walk.

Host  25:42

Right. And so they're coming to you for advice, I can't imagine that position that put you in, because on one hand, you're advising people whose actual very lives and family and livelihood and everything are dependent and affected on the advice you're giving them. And yet on the other hand, this is one of the most, if not the most effective movements that's taking place to resist the coup. And so you have to balance these competing interests. So how did you manage how to give guidance on this very sensitive topic?

Kyar Phyu  26:15

It's a very complicated situation. Mostly, they trust me. So I can explain to them well, and also I got, I got some help from international lawyers train the this to give me advice about the civil servants law, the specifically questions, the civil servants asked me about the CDM. So I got suggestion from this international lawyer. And then I give, like, I have, I have them, I give them feedback, according to their suggestion. So and then the civil servants Trust me. Trust me, that's, that's, that's what I'm working in, in, you know? Many, they recommend each other about me. So people start talking about me to get advice in the civil servant cycle,

Host  27:16

I see right, and what are some of the dangers or consequences of those civil servants who decide to join the boycott and to not go to work at this time.

Kyar Phyu  27:28

So very, very, I mean, huge, tremendous risks for them. I mean, at first, they got threatened. One, one server soften girl, she got threatened to lock up inside her house not to leave the compound, you know, because she lives in the government compound, mostly the civil servants live in the government, compound government housing. So the first the first, the first violence was not to leave the house. And also they got pressure from the director, the deputy director, Deputy Director, general or Director General to come back to walk and also they got shaming, they got plane when they went to the office, the god shaming in front of everyone, you know, like swearing them and and in assaulting them, and also they they are threatened to send them to the military council. So the Military Council also check the Facebook page of every civil servant. And so there are also some there are, you know, Nancy dm people who work for the military government, the some of them reported to the DDG or Digi to get promotion or you know, take out many incentives to to, to report to this CD and people see them CDN people. So they report everything about this CDN people, like even Facebook writing or Facebook posts, they reported whatever they do. So they got very insecure, very unsafe experience. very traumatic. Many people, many, especially young, younger, young girls caught me crying, how they got bullied and shame in front of everyone in trading. And another thing is many problems. I mean, financial problem. The Service Office salaries, salaries are our AR low or lower. For this for the lower, lower, lower clock lower ranks people lower Civil soften. So, in this movement in this EDM movement, most of the most of the civil servants are lowering. I mean, for the dgt, dg, and director this up about three layers. They don't, they don't quite caught that match, only just very few, one or 2% white God. But under them, like Deputy Director, Deputy Director, Assistant Director level and stuff officer in clock mostly clocks by God. So clock salaries are very poor. And so they don't even have the money to travel back to their towns, because they are very worried to stay in that apartment, to stay in their house. So then they want to go back to their town. And they asked me for the travel allowance. So that's kind of thing I'm arranging to help them travel allowance and give him advice.

Host  31:06

Right, so it sounds like they're in the middle of this really difficult battle that on one hand, they their Facebook posts are being checked, and they're being pressured by their department to come to work. And there's this carrot that they're learning them with, promote promising promotions and other kinds of benefits. And they're in government housing on top of all that. And then on the other side, there's a whole movement that is wanting them to resist. And perhaps if they see them going to their offices, they're engaging in social public shaming, that they're continuing to work, and a lot of pressure is being put on them with their name and face and Facebook account associated with it, for them to take a stand. So is this a correct understanding that they're these younger, lower level civil servants are in the middle of this incredible tension on either side, this push and pull on these two different competing interests that are trying to put pressure on them to go to work or not go to work? Yes.

Kyar Phyu  32:16

And also the family. Another pressure is from the family. Because you know, families are very scared. And also mostly civil servants, families rely on their salary only when passing work in their family, so the whole family rely on them. And so that that's happened and then they are worried they they will, they will be fired in normal salaries in this difficult time. So they are very worried about that, and families pressure them to go back to work. So yeah, many young people face that situation to from the family pressure, not only from department. But later family drive after the mass killing of the regime. families don't work on them that to pressure to go back to work. Now. We everybody feel unsafe now. So the families don't pressure them anymore.

Host  33:19

Right, right. That's interesting. I want to go back to this idea of social shaming, because this has been a kind of controversial activity that we've seen in the past several weeks of the protest movement, where there's been and to explain to people who aren't familiar with it, it's this initiative to identify not just the people, but also the family members of people that are in any way supporting the regime. And that, as you mentioned, that could include younger civil servants who are still continuing to go to work as well as their family members, that they're being bullied or harassed on the way to the office that their name and details and family is being shared publicly as a means of putting pressure on them to join the movement and to not go to work. So what do you think about this social shaming taking place? in the in the office?

Kyar Phyu  34:14

There are two groups now, CDN people and then CDN people, they don't trust each other anymore. in teaching the cheering each other, you know, teaching each other it's bigger and bigger. So it's like for Nancy tm people, the CDN people changing them, you know, they they go to work, they go to the work for the region, you know, they go or they work for this we call it like format, you know, format is the military putting the military hire. So that's that's that's from the CDN people site for density and people. site. They Shane like This this service happens on not good people not following the government rule, violate that rule and laws, they are going to be arrested. They are criminals. They are shaming. So that's the two groups fighting. In the post on online, both sides, I saw it on both sides. But you know, many people treated through the hashtag. So most most punishment from the most social punishment from the CDM site are stronger, because of all met many million people attack, same time with the hashtag.

Host  35:39

Right. Right. So it is coming from both sides. I guess I'm curious as someone that is supporting the CDM movement, do you think this is an effective strategy to be used to encourage civil servants to not go to work?

Kyar Phyu  35:54

For younger people? Yes, I think both sides have trauma. I mean, for for this shaming, shaming, shaming thing, it's really traumatic for both of both sides for both sides. The target is also the dg dg level, and the minister level, we, we we make them shamy. But I prefer for that level, the minister and dg and DDG level director level, they definitely need have they heard they have to suffer the shaming that for the younger civil servants. It's, it's it's very difficult for them, I feel it's very difficult, very traumatic. Yeah. Not to join the CDM movement, even I talk when Nancy dm, Dr. Medical Doctor, today, she she is still working for the hospital immediato. And she told me she is saving lives of the prosperity protester and, indeed our lives. If she she is doing CDM, she cannot save the lives of the people. So I understand her she she she has to walk and she I understand how she is not joining the CDM. But people don't don't like her. She people accuse her like she is doing still working for the regime. So it's very difficult for them to handle.

Host  37:28

Right, and one of the ways I've heard it described is that the people have so little and the military has so many resources and tools and is prepared to use them cruelly, that this public shaming is one of the tools they do have to try to fight back. But we do see instances where it's causing trauma and might not be so effective. And I've heard other people argue this is not the society we really want to build as we're looking to create something new. So as someone in your position who's been following this and advising and taking an active role, if if there is an alternative to this kind of public shaming of lower level, younger civil servants, what other tools would you encourage to be used this time?

Kyar Phyu  38:15

It is very difficult to see because this this, this is like the timing, you know, this is the movement is more like timing movement. So social punishment is like let's three

38:30

let's

Kyar Phyu  38:33

I mean to two or three to two weeks ago, so, I mean like not like starting from the movement, but in the middle of the movement like late late January, late late late, late February some something like that. So the problem is the hatred between two groups now. So this that's in the anger in the emotion. So the expression way is only through this shaming. But for the better way. I prefer more like more mobilizing and talking and discussion. But But the challenge is the they don't talk any more than nctm people don't talk to other people anymore. So that's why you know, shaming is she me is the only only thing they do I think.

Host  39:56

Right? I want to look at the CDM movement. wider in scope, civil disobedience movement. And there might be some listeners that are only casually following what's going on, and they're looking at the protest and the violence and everything else. They're trying to understand how everything fits together. So let's just talk about the role of CDM specifically, the importance of that for people that don't have a strong understanding of what CDM is doing, or why it's important. Can you explain why the emphasis on CDM? What is it accomplishing now? What is its goal in the future? Why is CDM important for the overall resistance taking place to the

Kyar Phyu  40:41

CDM is the I think the most important not not to kill the people anymore. Because CD CDM movement is the civil servants boycott, not to work for the military reaching, so every departments close, every departments do not finish in the Gulf region cannot operate the country. So, that's why we are working on that they are not killing the people, they if we go outside, we are sure we got killed. So, but the server service, if the service offerings are not working, they cannot operate, they cannot manage the country, they cannot say they are they they got the power. So that's that's what we are doing that for that in CDM is very successful. I can explain from from the from the I mean, like therefore forth from the administrative perspective administrative administration site for the public administration, the village level administration is the most important in Myanmar, we have like more than 30,000 villages in the village administrator is most important in the regime wants to remove the old administrator and replaced with the new military control administrator. Public do not accept it. And so that's that's the village administration system filled in the village clock. The clock is the service office. He by God, he didn't go to the village administrator office. So even though the military appointed the usdp person in the office, in the village office, that clock there is no clock, he can do anything. So that's that's what happened. So that's from the lowest level the white got at the administration bicon. It's also happening in the central level, the local government level, many departments boycotted the doctor's boycott and no, no hospitals open.  And also the military. The real, real real Walker's why got no rate, no trains brand. So the middle region is now very, very devastated. And they they got the current fashion degree in fashion. So that's why they are now killing us every day. Because the current invention, and they got very angry, and they killed more people. If we go outside because of the CDM suspects. No, no trade, no trade, any moral. No administration, in the township in the village. And also, you know, no medical, no medic, no services, like the no medical services, no municipal services, municipal people, many municipal Service Office, boycott, boycott them. So that's what that's what the movement faces.

Host  44:01

Right? So you're saying that because more civil servants are not going to work and the normal functions of state are not being carried out. The military is responding with anger by killing more people that are in the streets. And what effect is that killing having? Is it on the civil servants and their boycott? Is it making some afraid to want to go back to work or some that are at work to stay or is it having the opposite effect? Is it making people more resolute to stay home as it is affecting more civil servants to boycott and join the CDM

Kyar Phyu  44:33

simply they will try more CDM because they are not very scared of the routine. Very, very. Yeah. discuss about the regime and how they kill our people. So even Nancy, then people stopped to talking to me, and they they told me Is it too late to pipe Got, I told them no, never late to boycott them, just quick out of the office. So, yeah, I give them advice like them. Like, yeah, every day they asked me about that.

Host  45:13

So the killing that is now happening in the streets by the military, you are killing these non violent protesters. This is actually having a byproduct of bringing more civil servants who initially didn't support CDM. To now want to join it.

Kyar Phyu  45:29

Yes. Yes, definitely.

Host  45:33

Right. That's Yeah, that's, that's interesting. So I've heard a lot of things about numbers. And I have a difficulty understanding them. Because I hear different reports in different places, we should mention that we're talking on March 17. So by the time this airs, it will be quite different. But I've heard different things regarding the percentages of how many employees are currently doing CDM, as well as the target they're trying to get to have if this percentage is joining CDM this will be the tipping point, this will be the point of no return where the regime really cannot succeed. What can you tell us approximately about where we're at in terms of percentages now and what percentage we're trying to get to?

Kyar Phyu  46:16

It is different from departments to department, you know, I cannot say like, specifically, I mean, for example, like doctors, doctors and nurse, nurses and teachers, education, Ministry of Health and Ministry of Education, they are the highest CDM civil servants, like mostly hand I think 100% sybian, in these health in education. But for some department, like the minute, like this General Administration department, they have the lower percentage of civil servants, because you notice the G ad General Administration department, Deputy Director, or Deputy Director General or the dg, or the director, they all came from the military background, we have this thing called more Josh Rico muchas Rico, it means not from the civilian side, they came, they are background, they got the training from the military, they join the training, and then they transfer to the civilian side in day transfer to touch General Administration department to become the township administrator, district administrator. So these people, they accept, they accept they are happy, because you know, this normal civilian government, so they are happy with it. So they control the civil servants their civil servants a lot. So in that department, the percentage is lower than the military, medical, medicals, ministry, Ministry of Health or the education that I can say like generally 70, or 70%, or 80%, of the Nima civil servants are trying to movement.

Host  48:11

That's an incredibly high number. I can't even imagine what that must feel like being on the ground, where 70 to 80% of the normal people who carry on the functions of state are now not working. What does it feel like to be living in a place day after day, week after week, where so many of these essential duties are simply frozen and not happening? Is it something that you can feel and that's perceptible? just living day to day?

Kyar Phyu  48:39

Yeah, I mean, I think I mean, like, municipal, municipal friendship, municipal pensions are still okay. But, you know, I can see the like, there are many municipal workers joining the CDM movement. So in on my on, on on our roads, in front of the house, usually, you know, there are like 10 or 15 Municipal workers King every morning to seek the roads. But now I can see only one person came in the morning, so you can see it. So there are some non Syrian people left, and they are still working. So the surfaces are still okay, but I don't know, I'm not sure when they collapse.

Host  49:43

Right. And that leads to the next question is, is there an optimal number you're trying to get to and I understand in talking to you that different departments have different functions and importance, they have different structures in terms of who might join, so it might not be just a single Number across the board. But what can you tell us about the goals or the objectives of what? I'm sure you're trying to get to 100%? I mean, of course, that's optimal. But is there a tipping point overall, or by department where it really will be just too much for the state to be able to function, but that many people out of work?

Kyar Phyu  50:20

It's up to the people movement. So when the people go outside, like this day, like Daya or South Dakota, they killed, they killed. Mass massive, massively. So it's like mass killing happened there. So people were so scared in, in not to go to the office anymore. So how how people reaction to the, to the regime. I mean, like this killing in people got more Hetrick, and people got more violence on the on on the Facebook, about this, about the Nancy, dn people. And Nancy, Can people feel very insecure, and they try more CDM movement? So it's the moment and we have to do and we have to wait a bit. I I'm not sure exactly how when the peak that you need to fall for this to happen.

Host  51:25

Right, right. So you're in a position where you're advising civil servants who are considering joining CDM looking the consequences, the legality, and then of course, the protections and the sustenance that they and their families need. So when someone comes to you, and they really do want to join CDM, and they're prepared to face the consequences of very personal consequences, how do you support them? What resources do you try to provide to help them join

Kyar Phyu  51:50

the movement, so usually, I give them the travel along years to leave their, their, their office, so mostly, you know, their civil servants and helping civil servants from late Edo. And they have to go back to their hometown. So I give, I provide them the travel allowance. And also, in also we have the emergency fund emergency money, fund 50,000. For the service service for specific departments, I walk, for example, like the budget department or the general admit administration department or the Commerce Department. And so like the specific departments walk civil servants, I have defined for them in, in some some service servants who have the emergency financial, financial support, who needs the emergency financial support, we can also support them. Yeah, I raised the fan, from my international friends, and also my local friends in and we do need to turn

Host  52:55

right, you mentioned 50,000, did you To clarify, do you mean, you have an emergency fund of $50,000 of donation that you've collected to be able to support them? Overall?

Kyar Phyu  53:06

It's a 50,000 check for every every person we support.

Host  53:10

So the 50,000 chat, that's the travel allowance that you give to go back to their hometown?

Kyar Phyu  53:16

No, is the emergency emergency fund emergency fund? For the travel alone? Yes, it depends on their their hometown, their hometown distance. So some people from molinia mon state to them to meet Tina, I gave them like, two 200,000.

Host  53:38

So the emergency fund that you give them depends on their needs and where they have to go. And we should also take a moment to just do a little bit of currency conversion. For those who don't know, 50,000 chat would be about $45. So, you would give Is it correct to say that you would then give a civil servant who wants to leave their job, leave their office, leave their post, join the CDM movement, they would get a one time payment of $45 and maybe more if their needs were greater.

Kyar Phyu  54:11

Yes, yes. Yes. And then I collect the list and submit to the CRP, ah, you know, this an LD government and they form the CRP as community representative. So, I sent to them ncrp H collecton. This in the the they have the bigger fan, they will support this CDM staff leader, but in the meantime, we can give them the the the small amount, only just for their survival. there if they face any financial problem,

Host  54:51

right. So you're saying that if they want to join CDM they would get a they would they would get an initial payment of $45 Maybe perhaps a little more, you mentioned 200,000 chat, which would be, I don't know, maybe $180 or something with the idea that this would be money that can help them leave their office likely in Naypyidaw to their home village with their family. And then as possible, they might get further support depending on their need, and how much is available and donation at the time. Is that correct? Yes, yes. Right. I think for people listening, those numbers just sound incredibly low, looking at having a job and a family and a home and everything else and picking up and moving that. I know that, of course, the economy and in the living standards is different in Myanmar than other countries where people might be listening from, but I think listeners still might have a question of how someone is able to leave their home and life and take their family and, and live and survive without any salary with such a low initial payment is that is, is that really possible for some families to be able to relocate with an initial payment of, you know, 45, or 100, or even $200, and to be able to wait this out. And there are many support groups CDM support teams. So they can also ask for help from other teams.

Kyar Phyu  56:26

If they need, they need more, more assistance. And also, we call the communities to help the people to help the CDM people, so many communities are now helping them, like their monasteries amongst are helping them. And also there are more. Yeah, like the business tycoons business people helping them, you know, the cgmp CDM people, so not only me my support, but also they can get some they can get other assistance to that. But yeah, this is in this short time, we have to arrange it.

Host  57:11

Right, right. And in addition to this concern about having a livelihood having a job with promotions, that these people have trained for all their lives, having a family to support and to be able to eat and medical bills, and anything that comes our these people that are joining the CDM movement, are they also putting their actual lives or safety or that of their family at risk by doing so

Kyar Phyu  57:33

I mentioned before, it's mostly that generation See, civil servants, the younger generation, mostly the 2525 years old service offerings are the like, yet the young generation civil servants to join the movement in theater also lower level stuffs for the higher level stuffs like the Deputy Director General or the director general, they know teaching join the CDM. They have many things, they have many privileges, they don't dry, but the lower level stuff stay join. The population is also there, population is also the highest, the server summons population, the lower levels are highest.

Host  58:20

Right, right. And so with those deputies staying in place, and just the younger generation z lower level worker starting to leave, is that enough? Do you think if enough of those lower level people leave? Well, that is even if the deputy stay is that enough to fulfill the objective of the mission?

Kyar Phyu  58:36

Because this deputy they can only give commands and instructions. They don't even take the computer themselves, you know, go on over type types for them. So they don't know how to type. So I yes, I really believe it. Yeah, the younger generation lift and it's really good for them.

Host  58:55

Right, and as this younger generation leaves and they have to forfeit the salary, are they also putting their safety or their lives at risk by doing so?

Kyar Phyu  59:02

They face many, many problems and many challenges. Many if you're not there, for this general admission department, many, many yen administrators leave and they got war ended. They released the they were they were warranted and the regime. The police they came every night to to arrest them to came to came to arrest them so many people. Many people are not running many servers psidium people are not running. Many are hiding.

Host  59:41

Right. Yeah, I see and you're in the middle of being able to guide and assist and protect and sustain these people that are joining the movement. I think for a lot of our English language listeners that are overseas and are hearing this and have been following The story and have wanted to help in any way they can hearing this, I think there's probably a lot of listeners that are feeling desires or volitions to want to do what they can from the safety of their homes to support what you're doing there on the front lines, for people listening to this, how can they support what is happening right now in the movement,

Kyar Phyu  1:00:23

we need international support really, yeah, we expect for for from for un or the international communities to come to come inside to to stop the regime to kill the people. But you know, it's very difficult un, we were very disappointed about the UN or the delay in more and more people are dying more in so we are very frustrated. So I think the international pressure is very important. And so I really, I really want to request you all to put the pressure from the International site, to for this regime. And also to support the CDM stuff. You can donate to too many money through groups inside and also to the CRP, h2, they also they also have their website, you can also donate there too.

Host  1:01:28

Right. And we should mention as well that we have recently started our own nonprofit here in the us and that we do have a way to securely send funds and donations directly to Myanmar and to the CDM movement, including yourself and that any anyone listening to this, who would like to support the work that you're doing that a donation to our nonprofit would allow us to bring those funds directly into the country and to you personally to be able to help in your work with the people who want to leave CDM but need to be protected and need to have their families relocated and sustained through however long this will last?

Kyar Phyu  1:02:10

Yes. Yes, that's very important for us.

Host  1:02:15

Right, so we've talked a bit about CDM and what you're doing to support those civil servants, but you're actually quite busy and involved in dynamic person, you have your hands on a lot of different places. So, what else have you been doing during these last five weeks and what other communities have you been in touch with?

Kyar Phyu  1:02:34

Um, I mean, like, I got many requests to help them from different protest groups, mostly the you know, like, I mean, the small towns Yeah, I also know the administrator from the small towns in the small town administrators also by God, the CDM in one day has the protest protest group and they got killed like for example, less, less two or three days ago, the ny nightowl. My nine township in middle region, Parma neopagan, the protest the protest group, caught shot in seven people killed in the Nii administrator, he he is he is he he used to be my my participant in my class in my training. So, he also tried the CDN CDN movement, then in then he asked me to help them. So, we we we donated to the the heroes the fallen the the the victims, we donated to the victims, and also we donated to the incharge people like this town and also IE I supported to the the no globba now Calabar township protest group, they mostly I donated to the to the to the to the victim's family and also the in charge people they're in charge people are also you know, they need the emergency treatment costs, so I donated to them. Today I sent a donation for like Daya township find Daya is now under martial law in like 30 people, not even 30 I think it's now 70 or 80 people were killed last two days. You know, that's within two or three days 70 or 80 people were killed. were killed in also in George there are many injured people think more than hundreds. So they need emergency help in So I respond to send them medical things, but it's very difficult. All the loads are block. So yeah, we are working on that. So this this kind of thing, you know, all this protest group and people suffer in the ask me for how to send them a donation?

Host  1:05:21

And how has that fundraising gone? And that collecting donation? Are you collecting more inside or outside the country? And are you getting sufficient funds for what you need, given how much how much need there is out there?

Kyar Phyu  1:05:38

It's through my network. I mean, I cannot raise enough and I mean, because there are many, many people suffering. So they asked me, many, I mean, like, the problems are very huge, like different protester group, we also provide the safety equipment, we give donation to the victims. And also we give along Yes, travel allowance to the CDN, we give money to the CDN. So all these activities go. So I need money all the time for all these activities. So yeah, I request my friends All the time, like international friends, or the in also the local for my local friends. Mostly, we, we use Facebook a lot. And I post a lot on Facebook, and people know me a lot. And people trust me, and they start donating me so I can send money to them.

Host  1:06:35

Right. And this is really becoming something like a war of attrition where both sides are trying to starve the other out, you know, on the CDM side, you're trying to shut the government functions down so that the state is just not able to function. But on the other side, they're trying to starve out the morale and the funds that are coming in the starving out the actual people that are involved by killing or harming or threatening or imprisoning them. And so at this point funds and getting donations in is one of the most vital ways that this movement can be maintained, because that's what allows the civil servants to leave their jobs. It's what allows protective equipment like gas masks and shields and sandbags to be attained by the protesters so they can protect themselves. And so any amount of donation that can fund the movement to last another day is another ability of the movement to sustain itself. So and in communities that I've been in contact with, you would know better than I would. So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts in your contact with it. But I've definitely been in touch with communities, entire communities that are telling me that they're just a couple weeks away from being completely bankrupt, actually, that, that they have used all of their funds, all of their personal belongings. Sometimes we've seen personal belongings like cars or other things that are really one's greatest investment that are being used as barricades and protective pieces themselves. And that some of these communities that I've been in touch with feel that they're only just weeks away from having no resources left, you would obviously know this better than I do, what is your sense of the how some of these communities are doing and what their needs are

Kyar Phyu  1:08:28

the same way to I feel very encouraged for this shortages, food shortages. Now in line diet, they suffer, they start to suffer shortages, and I request IE x for the Ws p to distribute food to them urgently. You know, the food distribute drug even got killed. They shot that the police shot the food distributor. So I think only the wF p can help the food distribution. So I call that Wi Fi to do the food distribution. I really think, yeah, I do, I do think we are going to suffer the shortages.

Host  1:09:09

Right. And they're not just killing nonviolent protesters, they're also killing people working in medical and food delivery and everything else. It's indiscriminate. So they're killing people that are just walking on the street or even just in their homes. There's no safety anywhere. So it's and when you combine this with a lack of resources and funds, it becomes all the more serious and all the more critical to find a way to bring those funds in to be able to feed people or support them medically and keep the movement going. Just another day, another week as long as it can move. That's critical for us. To help you Yeah. So how about you personally, I mean, you're playing this critical role and being able to provide the support through your connections on one side of the civil servants on the other of the international organizations and contacts that you have of being able to give the support that's needed. How are you doing? Personally, I can't imagine the emotional toll and personal stress that must be placed on you at this moment.

Kyar Phyu  1:10:17

I can't even experts. It's like, I got to counseling. And I do meditation, like, every day, every morning and every evening. I got the therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, the treatment by myself. I know because you know, I got Warren in, in police came in such such me. In my parents cannot stay at home anymore. So we have to, yeah, we have to leave in.

1:10:53

Oh, my God. Yeah.

Kyar Phyu  1:10:54

And I also got pressure from my parents, you know, why am I so involved in it? I told him, I was like, I have to do it. Otherwise the service servants they are helpless. I need to help them. So I have to do this one. This, this this movement? Yeah. And now it's like, it's very fresh pressure for me.

Host  1:11:17

So your family home was invaded and searched? And and if I understand correctly, you and your parents are now having to live in some other place.

Kyar Phyu  1:11:25

Yeah, my parents live in another place. I live in other place. We Yeah, we can we close the house?

Host  1:11:36

So you also have to take care of your own personal safety at this time as well.

Kyar Phyu  1:11:40

Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. I'm worried like every day.

Host  1:11:45

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. hearing that. I do want to go back to you had mentioned your self therapy of meditation. meditating twice a day. Can you share a bit about what your meditation practice is? And how that helps you?

Kyar Phyu  1:12:00

It's, I mean, during the COVID time, I mean, last year. We didn't mostly you know, I travel a lot. Because of my work. I stayed in npt for civil servants work. npt is the government city I stayed in npt but last year, I didn't go to npt. Because of COVID. In we are working only online and I started doing meditation practice last year. And I follow Ledi Sayadaw's Buddhist way and also Mogok Sayadaw's way so yeah, just I followed this meditation practice and I do it. I mean, like I do it these days regularly. To to release all my  trauma, how can I say it's trauma, all my suffering? all my suffering? Because, you know, the civil servants, they share their story to me, it's the their stories are very traumatic. They share they show me how they got violences. they got shamed, it's all affect me very deeply in inside me. So if I don't do the meditation, I can't handle it. So I do it. Like every day, praying and meditation. And for therapeutic. It's mostly like the aroma therapy, I got this all this set and scented candles and I burn a lot all the time to make me relaxed you know, to focus, otherwise, I cannot focus. You know, I'm like shouting everyone. Everybody like lessman is very traumatic for me. so I can't cope. And so I cannot have a conversation easily. I I'm very frustrated and shouted shouting all the time. I am I'm very regretted, because of my involvement, too much involvement in this movement, this movement. So it's like very, very difficult for me. Let's let's type last month, so I need to take that therapy myself.

Host  1:14:39

Right. I understand. So you were raised Burmese Buddhist. But it was your first real experience with meditation on a regular basis last year when COVID hit or did you have a meditation practice before that?

Kyar Phyu  1:14:52

Yeah, my I mean, like my first really commitment last year, I mean Find the COVID COVID hit. It's usually you know, I'm very busy and traveling, traveling all the time. I don't, I don't I don't do meditation regularly. But let's see how I stuck inside the house. No more trouble anymore. So I have more time for meditation. So I my my commitment started from less last year.

Host  1:15:23

Right I see and you mentioned that you follow the teachings of Lady Santa and Mohawk say that these are two of the great meditation monks in recent Burmese history. How do you devise your meditation practice? Do you have teachers within those traditions that have guided you in person or through contact? Or are you just reading the books? But of course, both lady and Mogok wrote extensive literature on theory as well as practice. So are you just reading the books and kind of devising your own practice based on what you read?

Kyar Phyu  1:15:57

Oh, mostly, I listen to the speeches. I mean, they have the YouTube channel, so mostly mobile, local Seattle YouTube channel, I listen to local Seattle and also my friend. She is very. I mean, she has long, long meditation experiences, like 20 years experiences of meditation. So she taught me how to do you know, so I don't have proper monk monks teaching me. I mean, like the mobile car teach Teach me online. I mean, from the YouTube channel, but not like, in person or outside, I went to the monastery or the meditation center, just only learning by myself.

Host  1:16:45

Right, right. And what have you seen as the effects of starting the meditation practice, both during COVID? And now how is that helping you to be able to manage the stress and the trauma of what you're experiencing?

Kyar Phyu  1:16:58

It's a huge benefits for me, I mean, like, for my, for my mind, or mine. I mean, like, I can, I can focus, I can concentrate properly now. In also, you know, for this trauma, Trump the, because last year, I didn't, I didn't suffer the trauma. So I just do meditation just for relaxing my mind. And also, you know, to make more like to Buddhist belief for my Nibbana. So to go to Nirvana, I have to do the meditation practice. So that's, that's my belief last year for the meditation. But for this, for now, I am doing it. Not Not for that, that belief. That's a my religious belief. But now for my health, my mental health, my mental health is this this is I need to do it, to you know, to, to reduce my trauma is, to my mind, my suffering, I'm like, overwhelming with so many things. So I need to, I need to stop.

Host  1:18:25

I'm sure I'm sure I can't begin to imagine and are you finding with other people you're in contact with? Are there others at this point that are kind of going back to the foundation of Buddhism or meditation or guidance from different monks? Are the scriptures in the suit does are you finding that Buddhism or meditation in any way is providing some kind of bedrock of support to others at this time as well?

Kyar Phyu  1:18:53

Many civil servants leading now go to monitoring now. I mean, like, yeah, some Opry?

1:19:02

Yes,

1:19:03

this day, we have more free.

Host  1:19:06

So our monasteries having different meditation courses and instruction at this time to support.

Kyar Phyu  1:19:12

It's not like that. But I mean, like, it's like regular praying that these days are to make more calm and you know, more relaxed, because we face lots of trauma these days. So the religious thing is the only way we can, we can hold we can hold on to pray.

Host  1:19:36

Right? So you're seeing more people that you're in touch with and you're in touch with quite a few people and all the work you're doing you're seeing that as something that's happening more frequent these days is that people are falling back on some form of Buddhist practice for relief from the trauma and stress of

Kyar Phyu  1:19:53

this. Yes,

Host  1:19:54

yes. And yeah, in talking to you, I'm just kind of Have overwhelmed and in awe of everything you're holding right now you know the work that you've been doing for the 10 years and how you're now serving the people as a bridge in such a critical role and what you're doing, and also the personal impact that's having on you of your safety and your well being and how you're taking care of yourself with therapy and meditation, and doing what you need to do to be strong and safe and healthy. And we will continue to use this platform for your voice and those of others to get the word out about what's happening as much to our ability. And, you know, I just so thank you for taking the time. I know it's getting near one in the morning in Myanmar, Internet's about to be shut off, you've had a really long, stressful day, and you'll have one tomorrow, and to take the time to share with us personally, and the public things that you're doing. You know, I just really, really thank you for that. Thank

Kyar Phyu  1:20:59

you so much, also for asking me these questions. I'm happy, you know, at least, I think I cannot focus on the questions, but I'm happy I can focus on your questions and your T shirt talks. I can answer you. This is my first interview for the International.

1:21:21

Well,

Host  1:21:22

you've done great. I mean, just look at it as a conversation that happened to be recorded. And I think you've you've just done great, you've been honest, you've been vulnerable. You've shared what you've known. And I've learned a lot. I think everyone listening has as well.

Kyar Phyu  1:21:33

Yeah, yeah. Because you know, I can I can hold the conversations for a long time, like this one is really long for me. Very big cubby. I'm glad I can do that. I can't do this interview.

Host  1:21:54

As inspiring as it was to hear today's guest. I know from experience that when you're listening from so far away, there can also be a certain kind of helplessness and hearing about the struggle that people like them are now engaged in. Thankfully, we have organized a reliable way for interested listeners to provide valuable assistance to those local communities. All donations will be sent to support the protesters currently resisting the military coup. By taking an active role in helping support the movement, you can ensure that people like today's speaker have even a few more resources to draw on, and can manage even another week more in their efforts. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. every cent goes immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. Donations go to support such causes as a civil disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guests you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website, which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me slash better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and cash app. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts, or email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration. You've been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we'd appreciate it very much. If you could rate review and or share this podcast. Every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes. If you can't find our feed on your podcast player, please just let us know and we'll ensure it can be offered there in the future. Also, make sure to check out our website for a list of our complete episodes, including additional text videos and other information available at Insight myanmar.org and I also invite you to take a look at our new nonprofit organization at better burma.org There's certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a post, request specific questions and join in on discussions currently going on. On the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You're also most welcome to follow our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter accounts by the same name. If you're not on social media, feel free to message us directly at info at Insight myanmar.org. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that form here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible. Currently, our team consists of two sound engineers, Mike pink, and Martin combs. There's of course Zack Kessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with editing and a special Mongolian volunteer who was asked to remain anonymous as our social media templates. In light of the ongoing crisis in Myanmar, a number of volunteers have stepped in to lend a hand as well. And so we'd like to take this time to appreciate their effort and our time of need. And we're always on the lookout for more volunteers during this critical time. So if you'd like to contribute, definitely let us know. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us in arranging for the guests we've interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves, for agreeing to come on and share such personal powerful stories. Finally, we're immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We want to remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect the hosts or other podcast contributors. Please also note that we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show. There's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us this recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes video, audio written transcripts or excerpts of any episodes. Also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we're very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. If you would like to support our mission, we welcome your contribution. During this time of crisis, all donations now go towards supporting the protest movement in Myanmar to our new nonprofit better Burma. You may give by searching better Burma on paypal Venmo cash app, GoFundMe and patreon as well as via credit card at better burma.org slash donation. You can also give right on our Insight Myanmar website is all donations given there are directed towards the same fund. And with that, we're off to work on the next show. So see you next episode. Right

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All right.