Transcript: Episode #42: Taking a Moral Stand
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Ashin Sarana, which appeared on March 25, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
During this current crisis, we have been working around the clock to increase our podcast and blog production to the highest possible level. Knowing that at this time, every little bit counts. However, we're running into limitations in this effort due to our budget constraints. As all of our work relies on the power of donation, if you find this content of value, please consider supporting our mission so that we can continue our efforts at this time. Hey,
00:58
good day.
Host 01:24
Want to welcome back to Insight Myanmar podcast, my good friend, Shin sarena. This is a very different kind of interview than when we talked to him last year. in Yangon, it's really wonderful to talk to you again, we Sarna, I know, this is not the best circumstances to be meeting again. But it's, it's good to hear your voice and check in again.
Ashin Sarana 01:49
Thank you very much. It's a joy to hear you too.
Host 01:52
Right. So before we get into some of the more recent topics, I just want to reference some of your background. So we had a very long interview last year that listeners are encouraged to listen to, or we really went into your story and your biography. So we don't need to do that here. However, just to highlight some of the things we talked about, you're someone who's incredibly committed and dedicated to following the Buddhist teachings you've been in robes, many years, you've dedicated yourself to the discipline and the study. And yet on top of this, you're also supreme Lee dedicated to the country of Myanmar. As we discussed in our podcast interview last year, you didn't want to ordain in any other country, you've made fluency and the Burmese language of real priority during your stay in Myanmar, so that you can be of greater service to your community and you've involved yourself in the life of the local towns and the people who come to your monastery really in quite an extraordinary way. So can you say a little bit about what Myanmar means to you, and the role that the people and the culture have played in your spiritual journey.
Ashin Sarana 03:06
Just a little note to what you said as the purpose of my learning the language, frankly, I learned the language, not in the first place to help others, I learned it so that I can help myself. So that I can learn the teachings of the Buddha from, from the old and new books, and from the great masters of Myanmar, who shared and who still share their experience in their meditation practice. I feel that if I have the full access and the full understanding to their teachings, then I can, then I can follow it better. And then of course, if if I'm satisfied, then I can share it. My attitude to Myanmar is, is very, is very deep in all respects, because most of my meditation successes and progress and knowledge and abilities are entirely entirely dependent on my presence in Myanmar and on the generosity of Myanmar people and on the patients of my teachers in Myanmar. So, I'd say that I am deeply indebted to to Myanmar, both as a country also as people and also as the place of, of Buddhism. So for me, if there is any opportunity whatsoever, of course, within The limits of man's roles to somehow repay or support
05:05
back
Ashin Sarana 05:07
the community of Myanmar people and Myanmar monks and men more country than I, I would like to do everything and anything I can.
Host 05:23
Right. Right. And that's certainly what we're going to get into today with these topics. Before we move on to that, I just want to do a bit of a personal check in and just ask about how you're doing, how you're feeling how your state is right now, through all of this. So how is that how are you feeling?
Ashin Sarana 05:43
I feel like on a roller coaster, the situation that is happening around me, is very diverse. And changing, it's changing not just every day, but several times a day, there are different feelings and different hopes and different attitudes and different ideas on our understanding on what's actually happening. So so my feeling is, is diverse, like now talking to you, I am very peaceful and happy, you know and satisfy. But that, of course, is not the way how I feel throughout the day.
Host 06:43
Right? And how closely if you've been following the news,
Ashin Sarana 06:45
I am following them very, very closely, actually, as close as possible. Sometimes I spent even seven, eight hours a day just learning What's going on?
Host 06:57
And is that typical for you as a monk, do you usually follow the news this closely or even at all,
Ashin Sarana 07:02
it's not typical for a monk, but it's typical for a monk who has responsibility for a monastery. So in my case, I'm responsible for 14 people's life and happiness and health and safety. So in my position, I don't have I don't have a way out, I believe that I need to know what's going on so that we can prepare ourselves. The monastery where I stay is entirely under, say that it's under my service, or I don't know how to say this. So I am entirely in charge of everything that happens in the monastery. It's not my monastery, I'm not the owner. But I'm fully responsible for everything that happens here. And I have the, the control to decide what's going on and how things will develop in this in the center. It's a tiny little monastery, somewhat hidden, in a far, far away in the mawby. region, far away means far to the west. And it's slightly complicated to come here. And I think that we are a little bit in secret, although, although I'm registered by by my visa, as with this particular place. So if somebody wanted to find me, it is possible. The news, the necessity to know what's going on, is very important, because otherwise that I'm responsible 14 people 1212 of them. Now 11, though, now 11 of them are Burmese, and eight out of those 11 are young men who, who would like to become heroes. So they want to go, they want to join the demonstrations outside. And they study what's going on, and they speak about it and they worry. And of course they're in connection with their families and with their friends. And they try to make various plans and so on. So basically the political issue that's happening, has fully creeped in the monastery through through the fact there are these boys who want to go outside to demonstrate and they do go to demonstrate it's basically not possible to stop them, you know, this is their opportunity to show value in their life. That's not my idea. That's what they think, or that's what I believe they think. And there's no way to stop like Burmese people know what they want, or at least now, for sure they know what they want. And there's no way to stop them. So if I, if I like, tie them by a rope and say, No, you will not go anywhere I prohibit you, then somehow they will go anyway. And instead of being open to me as they are now, they will do what they want anyway. And also, they will not tell me what's coming. So at least now I can keep fully track of where they're going, what they're doing. And they are very well aware of the danger that they're bringing with them every time. They're leaving, and they're coming. So that's why I believe I need to keep Perfect, perfect knowledge and perfect update on what's going on in Myanmar, so that I know what is happening, and what are the limits to which I can allow the workers to do whatever they want. And to which we need to get ready for a possible danger.
Host 11:16
Right. And so you have these boys that have been in your monastery for a while and have been in your care and you've looked after spiritually and through their development. What does it feel like when they want to go out and demonstrate and knowing what's going on the dangers they face, yet also the freedoms that they're trying to preserve? What is your feeling as you watch them in the mornings walk out to go to those demonstrations.
Ashin Sarana 11:46
So far, I think they went just three times, today is 10th of March. So during about a month of demonstrations, they have gone for demonstrations around three times. The first time when they went there was pretty much no killing. So it was quite fine. But when they went the second third time, then me and the lady that the chief donor of this monster, we're basically preparing them for the fact that they will possibly die, the insured or be imprisoned during the demonstrations. I'm not sure whether they like accept that this is possible for them. But they do learn. They they learn how to how to run, when a policeman or a soldier is chasing them, there are special techniques. They learn how to deal with a tear gas bomb if somebody throws it at them, or how to prevent themselves from from falling down. And what are the things that they need to carry with themselves? And this is like totally off the purpose of my coming to Myanmar, you know, totally off my life as a monk. But there is no way to not know it. You could say well, so just ask them to go. But how far is is that a compassionate decision?
Host 13:35
Great. Right, so you mentioned how closely you're following the news these days. before February? What was your relationship to the news? Did you keep up on what was going on in the world or in Myanmar? Probably not as much as now but to what extent Were you following current events?
Ashin Sarana 13:54
That is so good answer. Thank you so much for this answer. This is extremely important for your let's say our audience so that they do not get the misunderstanding that I follow politics. In fact, until like sixth or seventh of February, I had no clue what is happening. I had no idea that there is something wrong maybe I like her that like military is the government doing at the parliament premises or whatever. But I had no idea what exactly is going on. I had no understanding and Myanmar, politics and Myanmar situation is one of the last things ever I would ever read on so if I know something, then it's because some of my supporters come in they you know, and they informed me so whether I like it or not. It See it in the I use Viber. So, so I see it in their message. But otherwise, I know nothing I had no knowledge about, about what's happening in Myanmar. It started by sixth or seventh of February, when when the demonstrated when the big demonstrations started. And I think by that time, I'm not sure. But I think by that time, the boys wanted to go for demonstrations for their first demonstrations. And by that time, I started to read new news about this. And I started to realize how serious this this is. So that's where I gradually increased in learning more and more and more first, learning what are the sources that I need to follow? And then gradually following those sources, it like following news is something so foreign to me, I am a person who doesn't read newspapers or watch news. I'm exactly the kind of guy you know, who has no clue what's going on. When I visited Australia, we went on a on a on a trip to see the Brisbane library. And as you are walking, walking on the sidewalk, there was a picture there was like a white stop sign with a face in the in the stop sign. And that was I think, 2000 2014 two thirds. Certainly I don't remember. And 2015 I think anyway, so I had an assistant with me, a young gentleman, and I'm asking me, Hey, why are there these wide stop signs painted on the on the sidewalk? And he says, Well, this is Donald Trump. The people don't wish that Donald Trump walks over the sidewalk. And I say and Who is that? Who is Donald Trump? And he says, well, Donald Trump was elected as the American president. So hopefully now you can understand To what extent our spelling Okay, I
Host 17:32
think that gives the picture. Yeah, that's extraordinary. So you've gone from someone that did not know that Donald Trump was elected the president of America that did not know that a coup happened to absorbing the news eight hours a day?
Ashin Sarana 17:46
Yes.
Host 17:47
Yeah. So in your monastery, how you mentioned how your monastery has been affected in terms of these boys going out in terms of the actual monastery culture, routines, environment practice. Is that also being affected this month?
Ashin Sarana 18:01
Yes, it was. It's it's a very strange situation. Perhaps we could say unfortunate, but the word abortion is maybe too positive for the situation. There was this COVID-19 restriction lately by I think November, I think November, December COVID-19. started to spread out even in Myanmar, after several months of basically no, no new COVID cases. And so we stopped to work from home. And we and I have decided, that's all after I have discussed with everybody, what do they think about it? And we agreed on Okay, so if you think that you are responsible for our food safety, then that's the way it is. So we still have to walk for Armstrong. We are fully supported, we have everything. Everything we need everything we would ever dream of, we have that we have stopped working from from all of the workers, they they must always tell me when they go outside. Even if they just go just to go have a snack outside they have to tell me every time we have reduced them and going shopping so so I don't go shopping but workers in the kitchen they go and instead of going like three, four times a week now they're allowed to go one time a week. And this this has created a kind of situation where we are all the time at home so to speak. We are all the time you're in the monastery. So going outside is very rare, and it's usually only for a serious reasons, but let's start with COVID-19 Then, when the coup happened, although COVID-19 doesn't seem to be a serious issue is a serious issue these days, the coup is a serious issue these days. So basically, as the, as the COVID-19 seems to be disappearing, the coop has supplied it or substituted it fully. So whatever, where were the restrictions that we had, we continue in those same restrictions. So there's no real difference, it just makes that situation to continue.
Host 20:41
So as the coup has progressed, you feel some kind of difference in the monastery grounds? Or has it affected you in some other way? Or it's just kind of a continuation with what started with COVID-19?
Ashin Sarana 20:53
I think I'm very lucky. I think both me and the monastery and everybody here, we are very lucky to be here. And to be here at this time, because because basically, nothing touches us like the only reason why we are affected is because we renewed perhaps if we didn't read news at all, then we would know nothing. But don't take the offense. And I think anyway, either you or somebody else. Well, we have beautiful black cat here, which the Yogi's, demanded that I allow it to stay in the monster. It's now climbing a tree. I see it from the window. And I'm thinking like, Hey, what about this cat, you know, like, now there was like, two, there was maybe 10 days after the coup. And I was like thinking how to deal with that mentally. There's the cool, and I'm a monk and I'm in a monastery, and the coup is in the big towns. So how does that affect me? I'm thinking about the cat, you know? Like, the cat, the cat? The cat doesn't care, it doesn't care? Who is there? Who who has power? Or what are the people doing? Or what are the dangers? The cat doesn't care at all? at all. There's like zero, saw the cat has not a single thought throughout its life about who's in the government? Or what are the people in charge of Myanmar? Or how the people suffer or not suffer? What's the danger? The cat has zero, sort of this throughout its life. And I was now you may think that this is like praising the cat. But now I'm speaking purely ironically. So the cap is a cat, it's an animal. We are humans, should we as humans, reduce ourselves to the cat situation. So that's why I asked you for, for understanding in advance, because I know how this is strong. So should I reduce myself to the cat's thinking and say, Well, this is not my problem, I don't care. And I will continue on my catwalk courteous and nice. So I think we need to consider the situation and it's a it's a decision, unfortunately, where we can help. I don't need to help by going to demonstrations and trying to stop the police while providing my body to be short. But what I can do and what do people really need is this kind of solace, this kind of love this kind of help, where First they need to know that I'm on their side that I support their happiness and their health. And second, they need to know that there is somebody who who loves last then there is somebody who is thinking about them and who supports their well being. So as monk, I have this special power, not because of mediation center, but because of the monkhood itself as a special power where I can support the people in peace and in happiness in town. I can just tell them that there is love and that love is available. It's available in their hearts and it's also coming from my heart to towards their hearts and the people really need it is It's not like whether it's okay or useful or whether it has any effect. No, no, no, no, the people want it and they need it, and they expect it. So this is my this is, I think the main way how I can help, how I can help, how I can support.
Host 25:20
Yeah, that's really beautiful. And when I hear you say that I'm thinking, another way to understand your decision process. And what you're going through is, to some sense, you do have a certain privilege that Burmese people and even Burmese monks don't in terms of how much you're at risk, and how much this affects you and how much you want to be involved. And you're very much making a decision to want to involve yourself in it and open your heart and care. And it's interesting to contrast that with other foreign monks and meditators that are in the country that are really not quite so bothered with what's going on. There was one monk who wrote on a social media post recently, quote, no need to worry about us, we are fine in our faraway mountain monastery bubble. Monks should not get involved in politics, and should have more important things to do. And then later posts said, I've been looking forward to the Myanmar internet being cut off, but it does not seem to be happening. I guess that is a good thing for the people here. So when I read posts like this, they reflect someone that has privilege and is using that privilege to not want to be involved or open to the wider reality that is happening, which is very different than what you have just described of why you feel that it's so urgent and necessary for you to open your heart and to be involved with the people around you. So I'm curious when you hear other foreign monks taking a position like that of just Well, what's outside the monastery walls is not my concern, the practice is the same, this is of no concern or use for me. And you've taken a very different path. How does that make you feel hearing a statement like that?
Ashin Sarana 27:12
Yes, thank you very much. There is a very big distinction. Among monks. There are monks who teach and who are responsible. And there are monks who learn and who are not yet allowed to be responsible. So the monks who learn the monks who meditate, and of course, the monks who teach also learn, you know, it doesn't mean that a monk one time starts to teach and then he doesn't need to meditate it No, no, no, there are periods. And those periods are also different for monks. So different monks, in different times, either are, let's say, let's call it to simplify very much. They're in the learning period. And there are times when they're in the teaching period. It is by no means by no means is praiseworthy, to turn on any electronic device, perhaps, except from an old alarm clock, while among his following meditation intensive meditation retreat, or while a monk is following studies, now serious studies of the Scriptures, I personally would not recommend and this is how I studied him out how I meditated intensively, I would not recommend using any other electronic device, then very simple old alarm clock, if that means to be electronic, or non electronic as well. While following an inconsistent, efficient tree, there is no way how, how your meditation, how anybody's meditation, or my meditation as well would progress if I was following the situation in the way I'm following. But what I want to say is that there is another kind of monks and that's the responsible monks. So what I learned in, in meditation retreats in the Czech Republic, sure, following mahasi Center, not sure what where the teachers got this idea from, but it's an idea that basically shaped my, my attitude towards my responsibility. They say that the teachers responsibility is to create peaceful and safe environments for his or her students. So both my teachers, my preceptor and my meditation teacher, decided that I will teach meditation that I must teach, manage. I am now therefore teaching meditation, and therefore, I am responsible for the peace and safety of my students, and I still have students in the monastery fgu students, a Japanese nun and Italian monk. And I take myself as the the only person who must who has this responsibility to create peace and safety for themselves. And that is what makes me different from me, when I found an intensive meditation retreat, I actually plan to follow it with perhaps after five, six days, I plan to take four weeks of silence And basically, time travel for weeks. The forward because I feel that I'm losing my, my powers, I'm losing my mental powers. Through the lack of meditation, I do still meditate but much less than otherwise. And I would like to regain my abilities to resist to understand to be patient to be mindful. And see, after one month, if the things don't get better, I believe I'm might have more mental power to support the people around me. And who knows, maybe my chanting and my meditation of loving kindness would be more powerful that I don't know. But what I noticed is that if I can stay peaceful, patient mindful, then I can help the people around me much more.
Host 31:27
Yeah, right. That's beautiful. That's, that's wonderful. And with that lack of meditation, I know that you as many of us have been passing very hard days of mental distress trauma. I don't know about what experiences you've had in Myanmar. But I've from the kinds of noises in the streets and loud bangs that people are already having PTSD there. And you reference to me yesterday, this nightmare that you had of terror that I think is not uncommon for many people going through it. And I wonder if you can share that story.
Ashin Sarana 32:06
Yes. Life in Myanmar is like on the verge of is on the verge of reality, fairytale and nightmare at the same time. It's like a mix. People are spreading fake news. Every day, fake news, which are truly fake news. Like that the US is keeping 40 military drones in France, ready to attack the Indian military, and that kind of thing. So there are that the general who's leading all of this is a has is hiding in China. And no, no way. He's happily in Myanmar and doing whatever he's doing. But reading and seeing all of these things is affecting my day and my night. It affects my emotions. I personally do not cry when when something is lost, or when somebody is not happy. I'm for whatever reason, I usually cry when somebody is successful when something happens that is the happy tears or certainly you have an English word for that. Tears of joy. So that that's the kind of emotions I'm going through. And I'm I like read news. And I see Wow, these people there, they made this fantastic solution. And they were able to, to resolve the the military attack and right the next message, right, the next news is like, this person actually died right there. Or then the military actually, like in the evening, they came to the monastery and they arrested people, or something else. It's always so it's really like a roller coaster. And this affects also my sleep. So when I go to sleep, I'm like thinking like what could be done? Is there anything I could ever do to support to do anything at all? Because it seems like hey, this is the time when I can like repay my dad to you know, to to the Myanmar people and to Myanmar, for all this incredible, incredible good that they have done for me. And I think like how, what what can I do is how much can I do and what can I do and where can I do it? So thinking thinking like this when I'm going to sleep. I fall asleep and of course, then I have dreams and I The dream that I'm learning these days, I'm learning how to care for how to teach early, early children in early childhood age, because I got an opportunity to teach basic Buddhism to children three to five years. And so I decided, Hey, I don't know how to do that. So I need to follow up course for that. So I'm following a nice course for this. And I had to dream that we, that I'm with, with some of the other students, we're in a hospital, and there's the teacher and the teacher comes and she takes one or two students to the like, inside to the clinic, and we are waiting in the waiting room. And while they're in the clinic, and you're in the waiting room, we hear jets flying in the sky and shooting through through the glass windows. And so I am the lucky one who's behind a wall. So so I do not get any shot, while all of the others, they're there right in front of the window, as the as the Jets are shooting at them. And then I recap, as I tell you, you know, like, now I may seem to be like happy smiling or is nice, but it's not the way how I spend my days.
Host 36:21
You know, that's really just such a stunning dream as you interpret it, because you're in this role of taking care of these kids, which is what you're actually doing in real life. And you're at a hospital, which is a place where one is administered to and in a vulnerable state and being taken care of. And then the last thing you would expect in a hospital is, is a military jet, shooting bullets into it. And all of the children that you're supposed to be taking care of are exposed to these bullets that are crashing through the windows into them, while you with your privilege of being a foreigner and being exempt from maybe not entirely, but certainly somewhat more safe than the average Burmese person are behind the wall and safe. And so it really seemed like the symbolic things in your own life and emotions you're dealing with came out and the details of that dream. Yeah. So you initially reached out to me a week or two ago to publish an open letter on my platform. And at that time, you chose to do it anonymously. Then sometime after that you actually read from that letter, and with your own voice, you published it in your own YouTube channel. The same words with different images in the background. So what I'm seeing is after like a couple of weeks of careful contemplation of what to do and how you want to respond, you decided that you very much wanted to come on this episode, and speak very publicly. So it seems like there's this evolution in your thinking of what your role is, and should be. Can you say more about how you came to understand about how you wanted to be involved, and how you came to define what your responsibility was, at this time, and how you wanted to take actions and what actions to do.
Ashin Sarana 38:17
I need to be extremely careful, you know, because you may think that I'm boasting, but we need to be realistic. I am famous anymore. I really am famous. And people really know me. People stopped me in robes. If I go outside, I don't go outside these days. But if I go outside, people stopped me on their own and say, Oh, I know you I have heard your Dharma talk and they pay respect to me. They I came here to this tiny little village, which is like really, totally hidden. It's I don't know how to say is really far away from Yangon. It's just a tiny little village, one of 10 1000s in Myanmar. And we just go somewhere to release the mouse that we caught in a in a monastery in the forest. And as we are going on the road, just people stop their cars, they get out and they they pay respect to me. They say venerable Sir, I know I know you I have seen your tomato. So I am famous and famous all around anymore. And of course the military also know me perhaps they do not remember me because they need many months, but they they have heard of me and they even have read some of my writings about Muslim fashion money. And at that time during democracy, period, they liked it. What they think about me and what is the situation now in military in relation to me, I don't think there's any situation at all because they, they have other monks that they need to deal with. And I don't think they ever think about me at all, even with single thoughts are at the top. But truth is that people know me and if, if they see me they know what's what's going on. They know that I am the man who teaches that monster. Not Money, Money Follows whenever the monk teaches meditation, the monk who teaches Tamam on Facebook, so people do know me. And I really need to be careful with every single word, with every single move I do. So the texts that you have published, is published anonymously. And if I wrote that kind of text today, again, let's say a different a second one, it would also have to be published anonymously, the video that we made, you can see that it is credited to good friends, not to me, also, for the important reason that it's not made by me, the video is made by somebody else, although the voice here is terrible, is mine. But I need to be really careful, you know, with what I what I published, when I say, I started to do the video, because I saw the soldiers in a video I saw them are shooting in people's windows in their apartments. So basically, soldiers are going by the road in the downtown, and they just shoot randomly in windows in people's windows in the, in the apartment blocks. And then I found so, so disgusting. So wrong, that I thought, Hey, this is really wrong. Because you can imagine, you know, the old people, I can imagine my old grandma saying, well, such as don't go to the demonstrations, don't say anything, and you're fine. You know that that's what I can like, imagine that some people have that attitude. But no, you're not fine. If you don't go for demonstrations, and don't do anything. Because the soldiers they're shooting randomly in people's windows, they, they they destroy people's positions randomly. They rent they use, perhaps I heard of that they shot a Muslim woman who was going to a market who was not related to the demonstrations at all. So no, sorry, it's not possible to be not involved. By your very existence, you happen to be involved, whether you like it or not. So I thought, Hey, this is quite a bad thing, I need to do something. And that's where I wrote the text. And later, a Burmese gentleman prepared the video for it. And another lady prepared Burmese translation for it. It is published anonymously, and I published it against prohibitionists so many people like so many Burmese teachers that don't publish it, don't do that, they will test you they will count your monastery. And I think I'm no problem, I will keep it on my camera. So if my camera is that the video will become famous, most probably the police will come and catch me if my camera is the activity will not become famous, then police will not come and they will not catch me. So I said Well, let's wait for my camera. So in with this particular video, it was not successful, so successful, it means that it goes to 1000s of views. This one didn't go to 1000s of views. So I'm like Okay, so that's my karma. That's the way it is. And when I tell it to one of the supporters she said, well to protect you with read, delete, share the video. And before before I publish the video, I got email an email and also messaging Viber from different people who say, venerable Sir, your voice is very clearly your voice everybody will know it's you What about if we do the reading they suggested that they would like to remove my voice and they would read the text instead of me. So I said Well, I think if if he has Burmese people will read it It might not have as much influence on on the international community. That of course is is my feeling my personal feeling which can be wrong. That's how I felt so so then the solution was that I didn't publish it in in my facebook profile, where it would be successful anyway is there I have now over 100,000 followers so that go very fast and very far. I publish is published it in the YouTube channel and in and in our special Facebook group where we do everyday loving kindness meditation life. These days, we have added their wishing basically a little bit of magic you can ask me that later. So we are doing a little bit of magic and, and loving kindness every day with the with the people in that group. So there I shared then what the people realized and we also ask that it would be somewhat safe if somebody else took the video and they upload it in their account. If they're not if they don't Live in Denmark. So there are many Burmese people who live in the US. And I'm very much in close enough close contact with them, many Burmese people who live in us. And so they decided to upload it in their account. So now it is and also check people assumption people have uploaded it in other accounts. So this is how it's done to, to protect to protect my safeties. But truth is that I didn't change in, in my transfers and transparency. What has also happened recently, very simply, is that I started to post things on my on my Facebook wall, which I didn't do for many weeks, maybe for a month, I didn't post almost anything. And then these days, I'm posting one or two things every day. They're basically hidden messages. Where, where I try to suggest to the people that the present situation is really not good and that they need to do something. It's a kind of support, it's a kind of encouragement that their, their effort has a meaning different messages from either I'm applying some of my Buddhist knowledge from the scriptures. So I'm explaining, for example, recently explained the difference between human and animal. Or today, I hope to send a message on how to find the 10 armies of Mara, all is very strict later to straight scriptures with direct references, and sometimes poly quotations. But that also is very carefully written, I'm careful about every single word that I write there, so that it carries the message. But at the same time, if if the military finds out, they cannot use it easily against me, right, although
Host 47:04
people that are detained by the military don't really need to have a logical charge against them. And so you describe some of these activities you've done, you wrote an anonymous letter that is anonymous, no more, you have a video that will eventually probably get more well known, you are using your vast social media platform to begin to carefully write about some of your concerns. So you're speaking up both here in English on this podcast and other ways that you've put your voice out there. You're speaking definitely to your followers in Burmese, in very public ways. And you are a very famous person, as you say you are known for your Dhamma teachings in Burmese. So are you worried at all that you might face personal consequences for this stand and this decision you're making?
Ashin Sarana 47:58
I'm ready for I'm ready. I put my main data on a hardest can. The hardest is somewhere else. In case if the military comes and they destroy the technical properties we have here and arrest me and basically ready for everything. I'm ready that they will come to destroy the property, I'm ready that they will arrest me, I'm ready that they will expel me. My donors are ready. They're not ready, but but they have made everything prepared. Even flight ticket to the US is already purchased for me. So it's ready. I already have a place in the Czech Republic, which we arranged with my other brother, where I would stay if I'm expel. So yes, I'm basically somewhat like waiting until the military comes and catch me but at the same time, I don't want to be called you know, because they find things so it's so it's like on one side I want to support the people I want to as I say repay my debt. But on the other side, I don't want to I don't want to disappoint you know the Burmese people by negligence or by doing something wrong that they you know, not appreciate from the very big
Host 49:20
Yeah, that's And on top of all that you also want to take a month to regain your mental stability. So that's a lot you got going on there
Ashin Sarana 49:28
is some people could say that I'm going into hiding I am not sure like the main reason for me going there. I feel like suffocated. suffocating. Because going through these news is extremely important. And at the same time, it's just so much so much something that I don't want to do. I like regardless what is in the news, whether it is success or on success or people inventing something nice or people being killed. Regardless for is in the news, this is nothing I ever wanted to do in my life, even for a day. I'm like, fine, like reading about what's going on in the world, you know, let's say once a month, that's all good. But I spend with it so much time and all the life that I would like to have, you know, is basically stuck on. On this I have worked, we have beautiful, we have beautiful classes with the with the Burmese adults who live in the US about books, we read a certain amount of pages, 2030 pages of certain books every week. And then we come and then we discuss what we read in that ama box. For example, these days, we read this huge, we could say even Bible of bow, Theodore, who has written this huge, huge book, one is one volume than the other one is five, or if you are now reading the the one volume one. And this is something that takes a lot of time for me to prepare to read. We have three groups like this, each group is reading different books. And then we meet together and they asked me questions about those things that are in the book. Because there are many Pali words and the Burmese people are not that well versed in Pali. So I'm missing out on the duties. I don't read those books because I renews I have beautiful classes with with children, I have around 10 classes a week with with Burmese children who live in Jamaica, and in the USA, they are on basic Buddhism. And we meet there and we learn but now because of the military, they have blocked the internet early in the morning. So we had the class early in the morning, so the class center there. So I'm missing out on my duties because of the situation and also because of my reading on on the news. It is something that is basically indeed suffocating my life it's suffocating the purpose of of that for what I let live and I would like to put myself back and get more strength to to resist to resist this. eagerness you know to study and to know more and to understand and just keep some kind of like basic outlasts. Okay, what's happening, dissatisfied with with little of information, and do more. These days, I feel that I'm listening and reading a lot and doing very little.
Host 52:44
Right. And I'm sure that the role that you're playing now, it's changed in light of the current crisis, although you're still in a somewhat similar position of tutoring and helping them. So what kinds of concerns are people coming to now with? And what kinds of counsel are you providing during this period?
Ashin Sarana 53:07
It's the concern about loving kindness. How should I do loving kindness in this period? That's basically the one concern, I cannot even think about any other concern that people would come up to me and ask me, the number one, and perhaps the only one concern, the only one question and and desire for counseling is, venerable Sir, how should I do loving kindness in this in this time in this place? And I do have an answer. And I'm basically answering that question every day during our daily magic and loving kindness meetings. So what I do is in the afternoon, because previously, it was early in the morning, and without the magic on the loving kindness, early in the morning, we would meet with our group online and Facebook. And we're meditating 45 minutes loving kindness, practice. And now early in the morning engine is shut down. So now we are we have switched it to afternoon. And in the afternoon, what we do is, we first start this magic, I call it magic to make it more interesting for the audience. But of course, it's not the kind of magic you might perhaps imagine, we recite. So you recite wishes. It's called the acceleration of truth. So we basically say Indeed, the nine qualities of the Buddha, six qualities of Dharma and nine qualities of the Sangha are true. And by the fact that their true, may things happen and those things are specifically said. And that means may or may, those who don't have width them to gain wisdom made those good people, those who are good people, may they be in freedom. And May those who are doing bad deeds stop doing bad deeds. So this we are reading everyday and Bernie's. After that we are, we received the baton on the the main, the magic spell number one of Burmese, they would recite the 24. The 24. conditions, causes effects for of so called putana. It takes you in just a few seconds, but it's believed to be very, very powerful. And then we recite the special chanting the special protective chanting for freedom. It's a freedom from imprisonment, is of course, we know that there are many people in prison in Myanmar. Now I think over 1000 in prison people and not only for political reasons. And so we chant together, these chantings. And then we do loving kindness and my explanation on how to do loving kindness towards evil, evil people is that we do loving kindness, you triple loving kindness to evil people. So there's simple because it's one simple loving kindness to us the good faithful, and there's thereto loving kindness towards the evil people. So what's triple their number one, we wish them that they stopped doing evil deeds, that's the first part of that triple, loving kindness. Second one, we wish them that they do only good deeds. And number three, we wish them that they are in peace, because being in peace in Buddhism, is never understood as being in peace after doing an evil act in Buddhism being peaceful, whatever is pleasant feeling, it can come. Not necessarily this would be debatable. But in most cases, in every case, basically, it can come only as a result of a good deed. So if a person does an evil deed, and right after that they feel nice, the nice feeling in Buddhism is not the result of the evil the but it's the result of some other good have some have a good date that they did in the past. It's just that it seems as if the good feeling was related to the evil deed, but in fact, it's not. So when we wish others to be peaceful, we do not wish them to be peaceful, thanks to their evil, we wish them to be peaceful thanks to the good deeds they did. Now, of course, it's very easy to come to the conclusion that those who are causing us suffering these days that they do only evil. I am not sure about that. I don't know. But I'm not sure I will keep it in the I'm not sure part. And even if they did only evil deeds throughout the billions and trillions of lives in the cycle of rebirth, now they can stop, they can stop How can they stop by the power of anata by the power of not self there is no self there is no permanent evil being we cannot say that they're evil by their intrinsic reality that is permanent. No, Buddhism teaches that there is no self, that means that anything can change. So with this, you could say immensely optimistic view. I would, of course, call it realistic view, with this very, very nice positive attitude. We wish the evil people that they stop evil apathy, that the desire to do evil disappears. And that they get the desire to do good deeds, and they also do them. And finally, that they enjoy peace as the result of not doing evil and doing the good deeds. So this is how, how I counsel them how I answered their questions on how to do loving kindness today. Right?
Host 59:19
Right. That's beautiful. It's very powerful. And certainly the Buddhist teachings were meant not just for times of peace, but also can be applied even in periods of instability. So how has your own practice or your faith been a strange turn these days? My very
Ashin Sarana 59:37
Yes, I I don't mind it as much I do not meditate too little, but I do not meditate enough. I actually don't meditate enough. I take it as meditating over two hours a day is is the proper meditation time. I find out I found out that meditating one hour a day is doing With my mind something else, then what two hours to do with my mind. And something else is like really something else is it's a different life, it's a different experience is different feedback that I get from others. So I barely get to I get a one hour a day these days. But as I say, it's not what I want, and absolutely not enough. regarding what I need, I would need the power of like, eight hours of meditation a day.
Host 1:00:38
Right? I imagine, don't we all. So we're talking a bit about Dharma practice for people on our side, we can say on this side of the aisle. But there's also a way to look at the Dharma practice or the Buddhist belief of the other side. And we have little warning before this interview, I should say, I had, we got in touch just an hour or two before to confirm the time. But in that hour or two, I actually put out a quick message in my, on my platform, just letting people know I was going to be interviewing a monk that was going to be speaking about these issues and wanting to inquire if there were specific questions people had. So throughout this interview, I'll also be peppering some of the conversation with questions became from Facebook users that they wanted you to touch on. And this is one of them leading up to this question. So one user wanted to ask you, looking at this other side of the generals and the military, he wants to know what Dhamma concepts can be used to persuade the military to stop shooting protesters. That's the thing that nothing that the Buddha actually has suggested. Now, I don't have reference. So you can easily totally defeat me by saying that it's timeless pictures, but I have heard that the Buddha has, has decided that we actually do not ask a person who kills we do not ask the person not to kill, we should not ask a person who steals not to steal, and so on and so on. We don't ask the person who tells lies, not to tell lies. Because if we do that, they will just be angry, and not stop anyway.
Ashin Sarana 1:02:19
So I think that that's that's the thing that the Buddha actually has already predicted that saying these things, hey, don't kill, hey, don't steal hate until it will be useless, or it might be detrimental. So there must be there must be a different solution. Which if I do, perhaps our perhaps get a Nobel Prize of peace? I don't know, what's the solution. But but i think that i think that we need to be patient. And we need to be persistent. In that what we believe is good, we need to come up, we need to compare our beliefs of what is good with the Buddhist teachings as good as good who has followers, but at the same time, expecting that things will turn out this way or that way. Might not be it's of course useful, is of course useful to discuss, discusses. So it may lead to some just some result. But I feel that that number one thing we need to persist in the good that we follow and in supporting the good that we believe in.
Host 1:03:37
Right, and a follow up question to that asked by the same user is what practical steps would you propose to start changing military leaders minds at the highest levels of government?
Ashin Sarana 1:03:47
Basically, let me let me let me think we need to we need to watch and listen, you know, I think I am the kind of person you know. So I remember when I was a kid, I of course, played a lot of games online and I'm the kind of person who first likes to create like very, very good defense and very safe defense and only then when I feel that I'm perfectly safe, then go out. So I so that's basically how I live I first want to gather information as as much as I can. I of course cannot know everything and I can be wrong in anything I say. But I try as much as I can gather as much knowledge as I as is available. And then when I feel that I am really really rich in all the knowledge then go out to share this also, why why the video and why the text came. It came out relatively late a month after the problem started because I was gathering information I was learning about the situation from both sides. I have a I had maybe I still have but I don't use it. I have a connection to one of the major one of the majors one of The one of the people in the in the military, a direct connection. So I also called him and I was talking with him, Hey, what's going on and so on. And so he's not one of the generals, and he has no, it seems he has zero power over anything at all. He's retired, and he's a retired major. And I think he's, he's happy that he's very nice and safe and not needing to decide anything. truth is that I personally would first such as to learn, learn what's going on inside, what's going on inside the mines inside the community, of the military, I would like to such as I personally cannot do this. But I think it would be interesting to somehow infiltrate, but this is not necessarily not the necessarily negative word, what I mean, somehow, you know, penetrate into the system and into the knowledge and into the information that they have inside the military. And then see what what are the weak spots and then work work with their weak spots, I do not. I personally do not support killing, I don't like killing at all. The problem is, even if I do like killing, because of course, there are thoughts about this all the time. But even if I support killing, there's no killing in war, at least in Myanmar, which would not involve civilians. And we know already yesterday, the military attack the current minority, ethnic, and I would call it, the ethnic minority, and innocent people who did nothing at all, they had to run away from their houses. And this is just the start, I think things will grow. And they will be very bad. I think war war is has started yesterday. So I really don't like when innocent people die. Like if somebody decides, hey, I'm ready to die, I will go and fight and both of the sides are is to die. Hey, then this is not my problem. The Buddha also didn't say anything about kings waging wars, apart from one special, special exception. What I really don't like is when the war involves, you know, innocent people. So I don't want like, what I mean, infiltrate and penetrate into the, into the weak spots of the military is to find out what they really want, what they really desire. And see if there is any space for space for gradual negotiation, but not the negotiation, when they would get something you know, of course, any negotiation where they will get nothing. But there are weak spots, which are important for them. And I'm sure that I'm sure that there is some more information that people can get that people somehow can find out regarding the military, and that they can work through those, those sweet spots. There are already some are known through the military anchor, like they're now angry, that people are doing demonstrations, they were not so angry in the beginning, there now seems they're attempting to recover their $1 billion from the US. It didn't seem like they wanted to do that in the beginning. So it seems that they care about certain things. And the more they care, the more we can address those weak spots, and perhaps persuade them that what they're doing is evil, and will turn them on the good side.
Host 1:08:30
So another question coming from a Facebook user. And this is an exact quote of what she wanted to ask you. She says, for 50 years, I have been asked by Buddhists in the West. Can you explain why such dreadful things happen in such a strongly Buddhist country like Burma? Meanwhile, I have run out of words to answer them. I have to hand the question down to younger generations. Please answer as honestly as you can. I do not want to hear excuses.
Ashin Sarana 1:09:05
I personally believe that this is nothing special. I believe that there has been actually much bigger massacres. I don't like to talk about it, because then it very obviously is reducing the severity of this problem. It is it's not it's not like that it may reduce or that it may say no, it is as soon as I start to talk about the very bad massacres in the past in rich countries, then it is reducing at the present situation. So nigeria who who is the guilty one, you know, whether the one who asked or me who's answering if you look in Cambodia, you know, like look at Cambodia. polpo was that rouge I forgot what was which which rouge? Commander commander is of course, we which other Khmer Rouge. Like look at my rules, like the massacres that were there isn't comparable to anything that ever happened in Myanmar. And it's not just about Cambodia, like if you look at the Buddhist time, you know, the countries of the Woodhouse time, and the pre Soca and the prix de masaka time, you know, so we have the king Soca Ashoka in India third century before Christ or somewhere around that. And so there was this gala sakar Chandra Sokka, who was who was this evil evil Ahsoka, who was like killing and killing and massacring anybody who he didn't like, and then he turned to turn mine, then he was good. But even when he was killing, you know, the country had a lot of monks a lot of monasteries, we could happily say that the country was a Buddhist country. So, why, why did that happen? Well, such as the reality of the world, I have my theory, that when there are extremes, there are always both sides of the extremes. So when saying the Buddha's time, you know, like monks, would be forced by the kings, to have sex with ladies so that the Kings would like forcefully disrupt the monks, the torture, the kinds of torture done by and biking sand, and press time, is something that just cannot even imagine, it's, it's incredible how they would, you know, they would cut off pieces of the, of the prisoners bodies, and they and then have the prisoners to eat the pieces of their bodies. And they would dig holes in the ground and then then, like, cover their bodies in the ground, so that only their head stuck out of the ground. And then they would cover that with with dry grass, and then just dirt and burn the dry grasses as the bodies as the heads were sticking out from the grass, basically. And then they would take a plough and plow, plow those those heads, or they would they would tie up people's bodies, people's limbs, on on ropes, which were, which were dragged by, by horses or by cows. And then they would have the cows or, or horses to run away, basically, removing, tearing away the limbs of the people. This is a kind of torture that we cannot imagine today. And I wonder whether these extremes of evil, are, are the natural supplement for the extremes of the good. So in Myanmar, there are many people who I believe are enlightened, certainly they were maybe fully enlightened people, but that that would be a different debate. And this would be one extreme of extremely, extremely good people. And naturally, and again, this is my personal theory, which you are most welcome to criticize. And naturally, there is another side of the extreme, and that would be the evil extreme. Interestingly, the Burmese people believe it themselves, at least some yesterday I heard from an old man who also helps in our monastery, who said that this is Myanmar that he said, You will never find Myanmar, like people in in the world. in Myanmar, if there is anything, there will always be the extreme of that there will be the extreme of current extreme of evil. So maybe that's why it happens that there are the extreme good, extreme bad. Of course, as I said, this will reduce the severity of the problem. And this is very, very bad idea. But for the time being, that's what I'm working on.
Host 1:14:04
Right, right. Thank you. Thank you for tackling that answer. And hopefully it satisfied the person who posed the question. I think that there's also some misunderstanding and even perhaps some ignorance among foreign practitioners, in terms of some at least in terms of how these outer worldly events are really going to affect the internal life of the meditator or monk. There's kind of disbelief that well, Burma is a Buddhist country, and no matter who rules it, they've always been Buddhist. And this is the case with dictators and kings and presidents and everyone else. That's the natural order of things is going to continue going on. And there was one meditator who wrote something on social media I want to read to you that really illustrates the thinking behind this view very specifically. So he wrote, quote, Buddhism was founded grew and thrived under the governments of emperors and kings, who were much more Much more autocratic than the current military rulers of Myanmar. Therefore, as far as Buddhism is concerned, I do not see any problem whether Myanmar is governed by the tatmadaw military, or the NLD, the National League for Democracy, members of the Myanmar military are themselves Buddhist, the coup has nothing to do with suppressing Buddhism. Buddhism is not in any way threatened in Myanmar, there was no suppression of Buddhism or any religious freedom there. And quote, so my question is, to be clear, how do you see Buddhism and the Sangha and Dhamma practice overall being impacted? If the coup were to succeed? Do you buy into the logic of this argument that it's going to persist and thrive under any condition? Or do you see the practice of Buddhism and meditation and and the nature of the Sangha changing under different types of rule in the country?
Ashin Sarana 1:15:55
You know, we we have a chicken farm here close to close to the monster. And at times, they somehow neglect the cleaning of the of the chicken feces. And my feeling was here. Now perhaps I create a disgusted in many of those who still made it to this point and listening to us. I think, like when you're reading the the article to me, it's as if you used to, you took the chicken feces, put it into into one cart load, and then threw it on my head. That's, that's how it feels to me. The I, my belief is that these reactions this I, I was like, worrying that somebody could have this thought, but I thought, No, no, no living being in the world would would ever think like this. And then when you're reading, it, is like the worst nightmare ever, you know, became reality. I believe that this is caused by lack of knowledge about history, because we need to understand the circumstances like the idea that the military poses no threat to Buddhism, or that is basically the same for the Buddhists, whether there's military or whether there's democracy is, is very clear display of lack of knowledge about history, and about history in Myanmar, about history in Cambodia, and history in the other Buddhist countries as well. Thailand, for example, would be the positive side where it evolved somewhat right, of course, it's not perfect there. But for the Buddhist things, I would say that it's better than we would, would ever dream of, and other countries as well. So there's a lot of historical knowledge that this person I believe, is missing, and that the person may like to study, there are beautiful, detailed articles on 2007 revolution and 1988 revolution in Myanmar, which the person may like to read and learn from, because they contain very important details that show us why the military role is not appreciated. Hey, 1962, started military wrote a memo. And the real problem was in 1988, why do you think that? Why do you think 1962 is not the year of the problem? Why is it 1988? It is because exactly what the person thought is what the people thought are many people I suppose, thought in 1962, they said, Hey, who cares? Okay, so the care military toolkit, we wish them to be happy, and we will continue to meditate. But then in 1988, one big thing happened. And it's called poverty. When people have nothing to put into their mouth, not only that, they cannot put things to their mouth, but they also cannot support monks, and in our scriptures is written that it this is exactly the reason why the Buddha's teachings will disappear, it will disappear when the people have not enough food to eat, and therefore they don't have enough food to support monks. Then because monks are not supported. They will not accept students, when they don't accept students, they will not teach students and therefore teaching will gradually disappear. This is exactly written in our power scriptures. So the poverty caused by the 1988 government, whatever were the different details and the same poverty again in 2007. were the reasons for people's for for people's disappointment. It's not because people would love to have internet 24 hours, which they don't have And the person who wrote the articles, I suppose has internet 24 hours a day. It's not because not more than five people be allowed to go outside their home, which I'm sure that the person you're talking about is allowed. It's not because the people would not be allowed to go on go outside of their house, I think after eight or nine o'clock, even alone, which the person who wrote the article you read to me certainly is allowed. And, again, you know, these are not the reasons for the demonstrations today. The main reason is that the military will, again put people into poverty, and take the people's money for their own purposes. Another reason is, there's poverty in eating, but there's another poverty, and that is in education. People are very clearly aware how the military has basically destroyed the educational opportunities of the people. The way how people learn today is extremely simple. That's why it's very easy for us to come to Myanmar, speak with the people and find out that their intelligence and their knowledge are much different. Whatever diplomatic words, he says, then in the West, and it is exactly because the military has decided for this education. Not only that, they have decided the manner of education, the the rote, the so called rote learning, they have to memorize they're not allowed to think or to question or to ask anything. But also, the military does not support education, military support for education is one of the least in all of the world in Myanmar. So the education has very little support, or very little financial support from the government. So the schools are very poor. Learning is very poor. And the teachers instead of teaching the children that what they know, they don't teach them what they know. And then they ask the children to follow so called tuitions tuitions are paid. And they're extremely expensive, because the children, if the parents do not afford to pay the tuitions, which they cannot, when they are poor, then the children cannot pass the exam, because the teachers usually will give better mark to somebody who's following tuition is the same teacher who teaches in the main school. And the same teacher then also follows the tuition which is paid. So if the students don't come for the tuition, sorry, they will not get a good mark, they may not pass it off. So is poverty in food, it's poverty in life, it's poverty in education. And people know that people have experiences with poverty medication, we are going back the same vicious cycle there is poverty in food, today, without education without knowledge. How do you want to make good money? How do you how do you want to be successful in business or in anything, you know, in anything that makes a safe, safe amount of money. So that's why the people don't like it. And that's why it's very important to study on the circumstances of the environment that we are talking about before writings. That's exactly what I'm afraid of, you know, that I will sometimes write or say something like you said, it's such a clear display of lack of knowledge. I think I forgot your your main question.
Host 1:23:18
No, I think it's such a wide angle question to answer, you're doing just fine. It's, and I think you really hit the nail on the head that there are these things being said by people that don't really understand and are putting forth these views. And at the moment, we're talking about foreigners and foreign practitioners, we'll get to some of the Burmese Buddhist practitioners and monks in a moment, but but just to be clear, we're talking at the moment of people that as you say, have privilege, I'm really glad that you pointed that out, you're referencing that this is someone who is invested in a number of these freedoms that the people in Myanmar don't have, and are projecting this very simplistic reductionist view that however the life progresses, whatever individual freedoms you have or not, however, the economy is, the basic practice of Buddhism is going to be preserved regardless. And this is also why I'm taking such a space to be able to talk about this view, because I think we need to reference and remember, when these views come up, and how they're expressed, and we need to take them head on, we need to respond to how is the practice of Buddhism different? Not theoretically, but in actual practice, during the times of harsh dictatorship and during the times of more open democracy and look at, in what ways were different things encouraged and in what ways were different things suppressed. And so, I think being able to be clear and focused in what the difference in distinction is within the monastery within the teachings within the practice, within the Sangha, based on what the leadership is, I think this is very important to talk about, otherwise you just move into a field of spiritual bypassing, where you say this is not my concern, because the basic practice and tenants are going to be upheld no matter what. And no damage is going to be done whoever the leader is. So this is something that doesn't have to involve me at all.
Ashin Sarana 1:25:21
I, I want to encourage, however, anybody who's meditating intensively to really shut down, this is extremely important, regardless what's going on around. If somebody wants to meditate intensively, I don't believe and I'm fully convinced, I don't believe that it would be possible. And I'm very convinced that it would not be possible to have any, at all, any progress in meditation, if there's any contact any not necessarily thought, but any contact any. Any input from from the outside regarding any kind of conflict or, or word is like if if somebody wants to progress in meditation, they need to fully shut down. But as I've explained, there are people who are meditating intensively. And then there are people who are responsible for their safety and their peace. So those who are responsible need to know what's going on, and they need to care.
Host 1:26:26
Right, and I agree with you fully with that, I also have friends. And again, I'm speaking more about foreigners at this time. But I have foreign meditator and monastic friends that through this period have gone through different times of intensive retreat and are not really up to date with the news and really not conversant at all in what's going on and not active in any way. And I fully take the view that you have, they are doing what they're supposed to be doing at that time. But it is different when you're looking at people that are have been very much benefited from the spiritual teachings and practice that Myanmar has given them. They're not currently in intensive retreat, and they are currently out of the country in a great to be in a great deal of safety. And that is something I don't really understand, you know, you you have taken on, you personally have taken on quite a bit of responsibility in care of how the current events are affecting people on the ground. And I think that's just something that when other foreign meditators and and monastics who have benefited from being in the golden land. And I have a number of friends there and are now outside I think some some of those people, and I'm not speaking about the people in intensive retreat right now. But I think that some people still very much feel that connection and feel that bond. And, as you said so eloquently at the beginning, this is the one chance that they they've ever had to pay back that debt of gratitude. It's the one time ever in our lives that me and Mars actually needed something from us instead of the other way around. And I think that one of the things you find, and I found this in my life, previously, when I've faced some hard times, you really learn the nature of someone and your friendship to them during the hardest periods and crisis that you would ever face. So when you are in the midst of something really terrible, really traumatic, really unexpected and painful. That is where you see people's real character come out. And that is also where you see people's true friendship and true feelings of warmth and commitment come. So you know what's interesting when you just go through normal life, and you might think that you feel a certain way about someone or have a certain kind of relationship. That's all well and good. But it's only in those moments of crisis, where you really see what people's true nature comes out and how they respond in those moments. And I think that the times we're living through now is definitely telling of that.
Ashin Sarana 1:29:08
Yeah. As we are talking about it, I'm feeling like some people who may think who may like to listen to the speaker to this recording, they may think like, Oh, she said, No, he said, He's like, himself, you know, he's putting himself into this danger. And he tried so hard. He's so brave, but no, I, I feel that I'm just doing what I need to do. And I'm not just absolutely not, I'm absolutely not doing what I can do. I'm doing the total minimum that that I could ever stay without blaming myself for, for doing the Burmese people the bravery of the Burmese people in in the battlefield, where only one side battles and the other side It only runs away and protects themselves. The Bernie's view, the way how they are braised is, I don't know, I have never been in a battlefield. So it's like imagining how what would I do if I became pregnant? Hey, sorry, it doesn't work for me. But I, I believe that I can never ever compare my attitudes or my abilities of bravery to to what they're doing. There's, there's a video where a boy is shot in the middle of the street. During these demonstrations, of course, and another boy is like talking to his friend, and he's saying, hey, I need to, I need to say, take the boy's body, I need to bring it here, while the while the soldiers are shooting. And he says, Hey, if I die, then make sure that my body is used for for good purposes. And then he's going there, you know, to, to, to take the body in the middle of the street. And then he drives the body to design Street. So how how could I cannot imagine I'm not sure that I would ever have that kind of bravery. One one of our supporters that he said, venerable sir, like at night he sent to me message I read too late next next day in the morning, he sent me a message, venerable sir, tomorrow, I'm going to the first line, please, I'm accepting your thoughts avoiding kindness. That's how they do it. You know, they do not ask a monk to send to radiate loving kindness for you already accepted. You already accepted that, that radiated loving kindness. So I said, venerable sir, tomorrow, I'm going to the first line and accepting your thoughts with loving kindness. And the next day he he went to the first line, he nothing happened to him, fortunately, but but that's, that's the Burmese people. They don't like go for demonstration, they go for the first line, you know, they, they are so brave. They really know what they want. And they are ready to dedicate their lives for that. And they already dedicated their lives. Around 50 lives or more than 50 lies already were given for this cost. And I think that needs to be considered hate 50 people died for this what they wanted. Maybe it's not just about politics, maybe there's something more to them.
Host 1:32:41
Yeah, absolutely. And I do want to shift the focus to looking more at the Burmese side. And we have another question from a listener that wanted to ask at this point. She said, People say that 50% of the Sangha think that Buddhism will be more protected by the military than by civilian rule. Can you explain that? What can be done to demonstrate the advantages of civilian government to those monks?
Ashin Sarana 1:33:07
Yes, this is this is the I'd say the, the test of my, of my evil attitudes, you know, how far machine setting is good? And isn't there at least a little bit of evil, evil means evil here equals supporting the military. So isn't there at least a little bit of his support for the for the military. So the problem has two, two sides, the problem has two sides. And I would like to make it very clear that the two sides are not separable. So I'm going to say now we'll make many people who trust me totally disgusted, perhaps forever. But I want to make sure that both sides are inseparable. And that's why even though one side might be one way, the other side totally eliminates anything of the first. So what is it? So when the military has a role over the country, there is no freedom. And when there is no freedom, it's easier to stick to beliefs. And it's more difficult to put forth. Doubt. Now in religion, as every religion and in science also, would you believe that? These days I studied about science a lot. In science also, the only thing that keeps us together is belief. There will be no science if there was no belief if, if Galileo thought hey, we cannot test it. So it's useless. Therefore, we don't know let's put it aside, then he would never support support the idea that indeed the earth is revolving around around the sun. So, so there is so much of belief necessary for upkeeping religion and science like today, maybe you have seen the, the beautiful book called fantasies fashion and physics from from Roger Penrose, who explains how much fantasy and fashion, it should actually pervade science. So let's let's keep it just for religion, any thing, anything that you want to follow any life philosophy is dependent on beliefs, and it is damaged, it is harmed by doubt. And for Buddhism, it is not different. As soon as the democracy started, as soon as the answer switchy came came in, they there was freedom of speech. And freedom of speech is extremely important for finding truth is not that good for maintaining a philosophy, but it's very good for finding truth. So now, it depends on what you want. Do you want Buddhism as maintaining the scriptures and the beliefs of the great masters? Or do you want Buddhism rather, in the sense that we think we meditate we experience we find the truth we discuss, and we really learn, we really progress towards the truth. So then we would have to divide Buddhism into two to two streams, one, which would be the Billy stream, and one which would be the, let's say, the critical stream, I personally prefer the critical stream. But without a belief stream, it's not easy to follow the critical stream, we can see that in the West, I personally am very critical of the Western Buddhist scholars extremely critical of Western scholars who lost who entirely rejected the belief stream, and they're just building up their criticism from from top to bottom. So if the military was there, and when the military was there, the beliefs were preserved, there was little bit of doubt, there always is a doubt with 54 or 54 million people, there will always be some statistically some amount of people who are suspicion or disbelief. But there was a very little of doubt, very little of attack against Buddhist ideas, very little of strange ideas and offensive ideas. When the freedom of speech started, not only that offensive, and strange and wrong, ideas started to crop up without anybody taking care or taking much care. Actually a huge amount, and I could spend days telling you tales on what the what monks made up. But also the youth, the children, they start to go to monasteries, they start to follow the secular schools. And instead of being with Buddhism, they start to be with Facebook, with Instagram, with YouTube, with other Western, let's call them pleasures, which would not be available if the military regime continued. So the children today in Myanmar, Myanmar children, they do not know what is Buddhism, they have no idea what's going on in Buddhism, when they hear Nibbana. There, they, they shake, by fear, because they feel that Nibbana is the destruction of their self. Again, they don't know what is Buddhism. So of course, they get this wrong understanding. They have that they have no understanding for months each when they listen to months talking, they don't understand, because they don't know these poly terms and these special technical terms in in Buddhism, hard to tell whether they're technical, but to make a simple technical term, special term special slang in Buddhism used by monks is not known to, to the young people today. And I believe that it's exactly because of this, that they are, that they are, they have to face that they have to pay attention to all this huge influence coming from the west. So they don't have that much time to go to a monastery or to listen to a man or to care about their their culture or religion. So this is how the military can protect the belief stream of Buddhism. But this is just the one side that I have mentioned. And there is the second side that we already talked about. And that is when there's the military, unfortunately, because this is not the the nice fairytale King, you know, who gives everybody whatever they want. Unfortunately, this military as we have seen in 1988 and 2007, you've seen that this military does not care about people And they will make the people poor as the way how they want to exit say, put a large portion of the budget to military and a little, little portion of the budget to the country. And that's the way how they need to work. That's how they support their existence as military when they're in the power. So it's very natural, I totally accept that this is the way how they should do it. But why should they have the opportunity to do it this way. So, unfortunately, the second side is that when the military is there, the people will be poor, the people have no freedom of speech, they will be poor in both speech and food and in their education. And therefore, they will not be able to support monks in the way they could otherwise and therefore the monks quality, the quality of demands, the quality of the monastic education. And, of course, from the western point of view, the quality of the monks who wisdom were will be very, very poor. I do not think that there's any way how the military could support Buddhism in the way how good how they can support in the way how people believe it, but not in the way how the Buddha taught, taught it. That means the experiential, discussing, discussing open, wise, attitude wise approach.
Host 1:41:26
Right. Wow, that's, that was really incredible. That was, um, that was quite a treat to hear you talk about those two sides? I, I don't know what to ask that. Next, I'm still just kind of contemplating that whole expose a that that you delivered. It's a lot to think about, I think I think I need more than a moment to be able to process all that and fit it in my own understanding and think about where I want to go next with what that exploration. So I think, I think I'll probably have to, to just take a pause on all that information you gave and continue thinking about it before. I think I've had a follow up because that's that's, that's very interesting. I guess one thing I'm thinking, as I hear it now, is it sounds like you're saying that you're acknowledging that according to different kinds of rules, different kinds of of leadership in the country, there are different priorities and benefits to the practice on the monkhood. And you're acknowledging that, and yet, you're also acknowledging that the benefit that's been provided by the Free Thought promoted by a democracy is something that is really essential to the growth and practice of Buddhism, which I agree so and I also agree that as the country opens up, and there are more personal freedoms and opportunities that they are also faced with certain distractions, and those distractions Can I was speaking to someone yesterday and the way she put it was quite interesting. She said, look like if you wanted to ordained as a monk 2030 years ago, the difference in lifestyle between villager and monastic was really not that much. But given how fast everything has advanced in the country, you are now being asked to renounce much, much more than you ever did before. And that is certainly affecting the division between she said, the gap between the monkhood and the lay people was growing based on the opportunities that were there. And certainly I also see some of that erosion yet at the same time, I have to look at where we sit again, somewhat privileged as foreigners that we are coming into a traditional culture and it was traditional several decades ago, not by choice but by suffocating to use your words to by by suffocating regulations that provided no opportunity, no hope of any kind. And through that suffocation, there was kind of this artificial paralysis that was placed on the religion that was called the protection. But it was really just kind of like a frozen in time kind of paralysis that allowed for no change of any kind to happen. And when I hear foreigners that have been to monasteries, before and after the 2012 reforms, some of them wax nostalgic, a little bit on how things were traditional before and I definitely, I can understand that point of view. I also understand what what you're talking about about greater distractions with a country that's opening up but I also think it's an incredibly privileged and problematic place to be in where we're speaking from a place of privilege where we have these opportunities and freedoms and Our own country, and one would want to limit the access to these basic rights just for the pleasure of being able to travel back in time into a traditional culture. No, the culture has to open up, the opportunities have to be there. The Buddha's teachings were never about limiting or refusing or preventing or running away from or keeping outside certain influences a modern society, they were about interacting with those unhealthy ways and restraining the senses so that you develop detachment to them. So I guess the question is where all this is coming to, is, how can we have the best of both worlds? How can we have a world where we do have freedom and stability and opportunities and economy and the basic personal liberties, how that encouraged the Free Thought and the critical thinking? And knowing that this is going to cause profound changes in society? How can the teachings adapt to this new kinds of context? This is not new Burmese Buddhism has done this many times over the past several decades and centuries, it has had enormously charismatic and learned and dynamic and wise monks, who have found ways to adapt those timeless teachings to a context that is changing rapidly. And so I guess the way I look at it, and I'm curious how you would look at it, is that having those personal freedoms are so important for society. And they do open up other influences, they open up the critical thought, how can you retain the importance of the monkhood in these teachings without being afraid of having to shut everything down and just stay in this timeless state where basic rights are denied.
Ashin Sarana 1:47:00
There is one thing I don't think it's secret, but I'm pretty sure that you haven't seen it. And you may like to appreciate that this information is coming from the great mangoes, Siyad or the great master who has memorized all of the or his belief to memorize all of the three protocols. He's in in the Guinness Book for having memorized all of the pages and all of the three because there are people who who doubt whether he really did memorize all of them. But in Myanmar, it is really believed he did him memorized all of those 40 books tipitaka. In mango, Seattle, this is I believe it's related to our topic very much, many Seto in 1988. That was the first real problem time. He has written the statement. He has written a statement, it's impairments. It's typed on a typewriter. And I am so lucky to have received it. And of course, to not not to not to avoid my my period of boasting, I am very happy to understand it in its original permits. So I will tell you in brief was there and if there is if there is a large desire or a large, big wish to for me to translate, I can happily translate it. It's short, it's not too long. Not very short, though. And he made a statement on situation that was happening in 1988. So I need to repeat that this was the first time with the military when it was bloody. So what did Mencken said or say, Mangan said or said, I do not know anything about politics. I do not understand anything about politics. Therefore, I want to avoid saying anything about politics. And therefore I am going to the forest and I will stay in silence. So mangled Seattle. Not only that. He didn't do anything with the present situation. Not only that, he was just stopped teaching. But he left. Basically, Myanmar lost the best the most knowledgeable monk of all during the problem that has happened with military. So I think this is a beautiful example, on what happens when there's the military role with the is when the military starts to apply their force, then Buddhism stops, it stops, it doesn't work. So you certainly remember those years when there was a big problem in 2007, it was actually prohibited for foreigners to come into Myanmar, to Buddhism stopped. There is no space for monks to give Dharma talks to people to teach Tama to do big things. I like established meditation centers and so on, when the military is applying their, their force against the hungry people who don't like to be hungry. So the idea that Buddhism could thrive when the military is here, is not working at all, because when the military is applying their their so called abilities, Buddhism basically disappears for that period. It's just not possible to do to spread and to preserve the Buddha's teachings, you you yourself have published, photos photo of Buddha statue shocked, shocked as basically damaged by by gun gunshot. And there, we could see in, in Pakistan that that military that army was was waiting in Bagram. And there are many hidden things, you know, in the, in the unchartered history of the military role, such as that people during the bacame time, the military wanted to have more money from tourism. So they basically removed all residents from from the historical science of poker, so that they can so that they can make it a tourist tourist place. So all these people seem to they lost their house, they, you know, it's this is not Western governments, they're more military, they remove people, and they don't care where the people go, the people who have just nothing, which is count with the gun, sorry, bye, goodbye, now you go finished. It's not like they will tell in TV after one month, please remove yourself, we'll give you some, some compensation now, not at all, they'll come to the house with a gun, say so you go or we should shoot. That's the way how they do it. So this is what happened during military we will not know it because at that time, people, not people, of course, I can hear things. But we cannot know we cannot have the evidence because people didn't have phones at those times. So they couldn't take videos of what really happened. But military role is the worst thing that can ever be there for, for the development and peaceful practice of Buddhism. And for the thriving of the great monks, you know, you were talking about these great minds that that that's what I was thinking about, hey, in 1950, and like this, there was this resistor, and the sixth Buddhist Council and there were these great monks. But during the time when there was the military, these monks didn't do anything special anything big. We know that there was Truman said, Oh, he made a monastery. But that now that also was not like something something like spreading the teachings in a in a big way. It was only when the military stopped their their dictatorship a little so that the foreigners can come and and show Mancera could come to the could really spread spread.
Host 1:53:38
Right, right. So those are really that's a really powerful way to put it. I mean, you were really painting a picture of how much Buddhism Dharma teachings meditation is at threat itself by what is currently happening with this coup. So my question for you so I should tell you my original question for you as I wanted to ask you what you feel the role of the overall monkhood was at this time? And I would want to emphasize that question, given what you've just said that, given the real threat that there is to the expansion and spread and survival of the saucer, none of the Buddhist teachings given this is even more of a dramatic question. However, I want to revise the way I'm asking it because you've already said a couple times that you're differentiating between what monks are doing what there's monks that have responsibilities. There's monks that are in intensive meditation, there's monks that are that are in some kind of teaching or learning capacity inside and outside the country. Obviously, there's all kinds of monasteries and monks and say it isn't such so I want to revise the question, to focus specifically on those monks that have a certain level of responsibility those monks that are in position of responsibility and caring for others in some way instructing others. So To that smaller, more elite, responsible group of monks, given the threat that they are facing in their practice and religion, based on the coup and the potential military rule. What do you feel is their responsibility right now?
Ashin Sarana 1:55:19
I think they are. Number one, they need to give the people that what they want. And that is my my favorite word, Celeste. And silence means going to the dictionary. It means the act of consoling, giving release in Africa. That's exactly what I mean. So or it has another meaning that comfort you feel when consoled in times of disappointment. I think that's exactly what the people expect from monks. Now. People will do the demonstrate they will do whether they want or whether they can or whether it's okay, that that I don't think I can do anything with this. But people will do the demonstrations, they will continue doing demonstrations, they will continue showing their will and they will continue defied the the rebels who are occupying the government promises. But the monks need to provide the people with peace, you know, let the people go to this to this unlawful, ungrateful battlefield created by those rebels. And they need energy, they need support, they need happiness, so that they, you know, so that they see some purpose. Like they see that now what's coming is just terror, and they already know it from the very beginning, there's nothing else coming, then terror and there can be long term terror or there can be short term terror. And they have decided to go through the short term terror instead of the long term terror, for you still can understand me. And when the monks speak to the laypeople when they deal and of course, monks have their Facebook accounts, and they do deal with people. Now, I think the number one responsibility of monks, is to provide the people with happiness with peace to the monks themselves need to be the the exemplary, the exemplary for for this peaceful mind. They need to show the people that a peaceful mind still exists in the world. And this is exactly what you can, what you can have, and lead the people support help them in having peace and having happiness, because that is what will give them energy and happiness to continue in striving for that what they believe is the best.
Host 1:57:59
And how do you feel the response has been thus far from what you've seen of those monks charged with responsibility? What have you seen in terms of the response that has been given? And what would you like to see moving forward?
Ashin Sarana 1:58:13
I think that they want to survive, they want to survive, and therefore, they keep quiet. I believe that there are many monks who work hard to support the people in their demonstrations directly. So they actually join those demonstrations. And then monks, who are the most responsible who are not just responsible for a monastery, but who are responsible for Myanmar country for Buddhism in Myanmar? What they have done? I don't know they have done something that I know that's true, but it's not relevant to your question. What these great monks what the most famous and most important monks in Myanmar, or some of them has done is that they have directly requested the the rebels in the government premises as I call the military, they have requested them to hand the government back to to the legally elected, elected parties, and, of course, released the political prisoners. And number one, I'm going three two, number one point is to stop the violence to stop the massacres on the streets. As I've already mentioned, the Buddha apparently has suggested that we do not ask the person who kills not to kill as you can see, we it's exactly what happened. Nothing happened. I don't know whether the military then arrest itself amongst we perhaps cannot know but nothing happened. It's a basically talking, talking to the dark without anybody listening. So the monks do try what the monks do they release statements. We're already talking about statements and a different discussion. Monks do release statements, and that provides people with happiness and with these, but what they do themselves, they're monsters that I don't know. I've heard of pouch Sarah and Sarah Shannon dermalab Ivanka in Myanmar, they know me know him esparto. Seattle, they have reportedly prohibited military from entering their monastery premises. And I think that part of their prohibiting the military from entering their monastery is prohibiting themselves from entering online social media. I think the the most responsible monks what they do in order to stop supporting the monastery, both in the way that they would join them, and also in the way that they would support the military's idea of protecting the country by getting in present. I think that these great months, they simply decided, hey, we don't play this game. We don't play this game. And that's it. So they closed up the monasteries turned off their phones, that I don't know that that's how I feel. They turn off their phones, they logged out of their social media, and they're gone. And that's exactly what I would expect from from a military region that simply simply that the Buddhism shuts down, while the military is there.
Host 2:01:52
Right. So a follow up question to that actually came from a Facebook user. Again, this kind of fits naturally into what you were saying. You mentioned that it's that monk should not tell people not to kill. But his question is, he said, shouldn't all the songa unanimously admonish the military is wrong actions to kill the protesters and preach the consequences of killing. So this is a different way to approach that where you're not telling people what to do and not do but you're just speaking very clearly, on the dangers karmically ethically of proceeding with certain unwholesome actions.
Ashin Sarana 2:02:32
Yes, that's actually the way how I am writing my posts in Facebook these days. I don't think that all monks will do something, you know, in Myanmar, or monstering, whatever. Whatever they think is is good. And they have they are different in their ideas. But there was a little little imprecision in how you have understood what I have said, it's not that we do not ask people to not care. No, it's actually our duty, that we ask people not to care not to steal, not to come in and out for it not to tell us not to drink alcohol, this is our duty and say, we have six duties. And this is number one duty, that we that we ask people to avoid doing evil. What I said is that we do not answer this a person who's doing it. So a person who's killing should not be said, Don't kill a person who's stealing should not be said, Don't steal. So it's, it's about the timing, you know, like, same not Do not kill, at the time when the person has not yet started killing him, like warn them about what's going on what's was right, who's wrong, and help them avoid starting that kind of thing.
Host 2:03:53
Right. So also connected to that. monks are separate from worldly society, they're not supposed to engage in politics or worldly affairs directly. And yet, at the same time, they do have this kind of moral authority to assert Where is needed. So as someone like yourself, who is just so knowledgeable and careful with Vinny, that's the monks code, the monastic discipline for those that don't know. And you are very serious and careful about following this. And yet, you're also very concerned about what's happening in this present moment. How do you navigate your own role and figuring out what you should do now? How do you try to figure out what is appropriate of India and what is appropriate for your care and love of those people
Ashin Sarana 2:04:39
around you? I personally do not take this as politics like as soon as monks involve themselves in politics, such as that in most cases, if not all, it is not about projects, but it's about ethics. And if any time is I think that it will be very rare that my theory would not work. Most of the times whenever monks become either interested or engaged or supportive of any political decision decisions. I think in most of the times, or all of the times, it would not be because of political reasons, but because of ethical reasons. So that's that's how I take it. So my number one duty is to I fixed theories given by the Buddha or manifesto series. Number one, I have to help people understand what's wrong and support them in not doing what's wrong. Number two, I have to help people understand to write and support them in doing what's right. Number three, I have to pervade them by loving kindness. Number four, I have to teach them the Dharma, the true Buddha's teachings with the which they haven't heard yet. Number five, I have to teach them the true Buddha's teachings with which they already have heard. So they remember it better and understand it better. Number six, I have to show them tap to heaven. and here we can play with the interpretation, or at least amongst you, that the path to Nibbana at some portions of Scripture seems to be actually more preferable than path to heaven. Because if somebody doesn't attend the Barna, most probably, they will go to heaven anyway. So these are my six duties. And when I study the politics, I'm basically studying the ethics. I'm not interested so much about what's going on politically. I'm interested in what's going on ethically. And that's indeed true. So whenever I watch these videos, and the thing I'm not considering in, like, whether the military is trying to keep this country together, or making in a federation, or there is a danger that some of the minorities will split out, I'm not thinking like, maybe they want to, like, do genocide or like this. I'm not that much like, searching for these things I'm more interested in how's the ethics going on? And how does that touch on me as somebody who speaks to crowds of hundreds of 1000s of people sometimes in social media, and when there is a problem, and I need to express my opinion, because people ask me questions, and then they share my answers, here and there. So I need to know what's really going on. And I need to avoid spreading fake news or saying nonsense ideas, such as the idea that maybe it doesn't matter whether the military governs, or whether the democracy governs this, this would be I would, I would make many people disgusted about foreigners following Buddhism as a representative of for a month. So I need to know these things and to understand them. And I believe that I need to study these things more in in terms of ethics, rather than as fully politics and understand what is helpful for the people's happiness and for the people's practice of Tama and what is not. So there is one thing in the scriptures that you may like to know, and that people who are still doubtful about whether monks are really allowed to talk about politics. So I like to exaggerate when I say that fanboy. Morgana talked about politics, you will have to bear with me. When the king of margutta when he waged war against the versions, the versions one. So the king Marga, down, he lost. And at that time, they didn't have Facebook or like that, that you could reload news. They had a drummer or a gong player who would go in the street and they would they would beat the gong or play the drum. And they would shout out what actually happened. So a drummer went like this in the street. And he was shouting, that the king of Magadha lost in the battle against budget. Yes. So the monks they heard it and they were talking among themselves. monks were talking about themselves about politics. What did they say? They said, Hey, guys, do you know that the king mother now lost in the battle against budget, something absolutely useless is your politics nothing else? And then venerable Mughal on the great era hand who is believed to have great great psychic powers. He came to these monks and he said no, guys, in fact, the king market how one over budgets. So think about it, you know, like the moms they're talking about politics, you're like fine, but an arrowhead Mogollon and not only that he thinks about politics, that only that he knows about politics. Not only that he would be talking about politics, but he was not invited. Nobody asked venerable Morgana for his idea. Nobody said, Hey, venerable McGrath, do you know that what happened and so newer, he came up his self, and he stopped the monks in their discussion. He said, Hey, guys, you are wrong, the politics is different. And there it doesn't end whenever mocha Lana told them that the king Margarita one, and amongst they were really disappointed, and as you would expect from me, they were not disappointed because venerable mocha Lana would be talking about politics. They were disappointed that venerable Morgana would know about politics, something more than they did. And they were so disappointed that they thought that the Emperor Morgana just wants to boast that he has psychic powers. Perhaps you have experienced this, you know, sometimes when people are talking about something like tomorrow is raining, then somebody comes out, you know, without knowing anything. And he says, No, I know it tomorrow was no training. So that kind of boasting with psychic powers that the person does not have. So these monks, they were really disappointed that venerable Magana is now boasting with psychic power, which he certainly doesn't have, because it's very obvious that the king marketer last. So what did the monster do? Not only that, there was not only that, they would like say, ah, they didn't say like, Hey, we are talking about police disease, let's go meditate. No way. They went to see the Buddha and ask the Buddha about politics. So we have here quite a lot of people involved in politics. They went to see the Buddha and they said, Oh, Buddha, do you know, the the king ma that he lost with the virgins, and then this venerable Magana came, and he's boasting with psychic powers, which he doesn't have, and says that the King mongkut have won. And now you would say last, certainly, the Buddha, just tell them hey, guys, you're talking about politics, stop this and go meditate. But you're hearing this from mushroom sedima. So of course, this is not the way it happened. So when they spoke when they told us to to the Buddha, the Buddha, in fact, supported that talk about phonetics, and he said, you know, venerable Naga Lana is true. And then the Buddha told them, what exactly happened that would have gave them the political news? What did he say he said it in detail, and this is a person that I memorized as part portion of my memorizing of the bariatric upali book. So the book has said, monks, first, the king Magadha he lost in the war with virgins, then the king maggot has collected all of the troops that were available. Then he went to the war with virgins again, and defeated them. venerable maka Lama is true. And there is no offense for anyone from Ocala. Can you ask that? The Scriptures are showing us that not only the monks are talking about politics, but even hourihan, venerable maga Lana by himself came up and started to talk about politics. The Buddha had then supported the talk about politics and politics by continuing the information what actually happened, and nobody incurred an offense against him. So this doesn't mean that monks should talk about me, right? This is a different extreme that I absolutely accept them. No way must not talk about politics. But when it matters, it is necessary to know what's going on so that monks can make the necessary solution. For example, if, for example, if the king Margarita lost, then there could be an update that the virgin sexually are going to kill everybody in the monastery to the monks could evacuate themselves somewhere else. So I do not stop talking about politics when it doesn't matter. Now, let's imagine that I will talk to you about kings in middle aged Czech Republic, that will be exactly the kind of politics that I believe monster will never ever talk about. It's irrelevant. But when it is relevant, those monks who are responsible for monsters I believe that they should know what's going on. And if they can help to prevent evil if they can suffer the effects of both of both the those in the power and those who Who has to listen to those in the power? Then I believe monks should should support support the ethics. And they should remind the people about what what to do what's right.
Host 2:15:14
Thank you for that. That's really a wonderful, detailed explanation that goes into a lot of background. And I think clarify some points. So lastly, in our discussion, I really appreciate all the time you're taking, I think this is incredibly valuable. I want to move to this letter that you wrote. And towards the end of the letter, you mentioned the importance of the world outside of Myanmar paying attention and caring you talked about, you gave a specific example of how protesters were switching their signs from Burmese to English because they wanted the world to know what they were doing. At the moment, I'm sure that many of our audiences listening, many of them are meditators, some are tuning in, out of interest to me and more. But regardless, they're following along with this. And many of them just feel sick, feel hopeless, feel upset, and deeply concerned and troubled by what's happening, but they also feel helpless. They don't know what they can do at this time, they don't know what an ordinary person is supposed to do. Many of them are center, many of those who are practicing or after their practices are thinking specifically about the people in Myanmar and directing their metta towards them. But they also feel somewhat limited and helpless and what they can do. And yet in your letter, you call attention to how important it is that foreigners do pay attention and involve themselves in what's going on. So my question to you is, what can they do? What role can they play? You're speaking to an audience of many of them right now. What would you like to tell them about what role they can play to help out at this time?
Ashin Sarana 2:17:07
Please continue, continue in everything that you've been doing now for the good of Myanmar, continue in that just continue because things are changing, things are happening, things are improving, some parts get worse, some parts get better. At this moment, I can say nothing. And I have no psychic powers. I tell you now to see you have it recorded. So you can show it to anybody anytime. I don't know how it will be tomorrow, certainly not tomorrow as well. But for a few years, I'm sure I will not have any psychic powers. And now 100% I have no psychic power. So I don't know what's coming in the future. But I know one thing that we don't know, I don't know that that's for my for myself, I can say for sure. I don't know what will happen. I don't know whether the military will get the role or whether the military will leave. There are possibilities that that the generals will will run away, which we saw already in the past and strew it's possible that the that the minority armies will either very much or somewhat considerably damage and the Burmese militaries, whatever, barracks or whatever are their areas and their equipment. So it's possible that the military will really fail and they will have to retreat. It is also possible that they will not retreat. I don't know there are things everyday happening all around the world like yesterday in Malaysia such as to definitely Amar is kicked out of ASEAN until the until the military junta is, is occupying the government premises. And other things are happening. The UN is preparing some I don't know whether you call it indictment, or you know, they want to call the generals to the International Criminal Court. So things are really happening. I don't know how far this is going. But I want to encourage everybody to continue in their best efforts for the benefit of Myanmar because there is I say AI who has no powers and who knows nothing. I say that there's 50% chance that the people will succeed. So but really, we all need to continue, we all need to continue, there is still a large hope that things will get right. Just continue doing exactly that what you've been doing good, whatever you've been doing. Hopefully you all of you have been doing something, whatever you've been doing something good encouraging the people pacifying the people providing them with as well as giving them energy containing was that joining sorry joining the demonstrations, joining the civil disobedience movement, praising the cpra see rpH praising the UN Whatever you have been doing plying influence to China, whatever you've been doing good from Myanmar, please continue that whatever you've been doing good from Myanmar that's in, of course, in the limits of the five precepts. Please continue that and continue that. As long as I said, such as, as long as your life lasts as long as possible, because there is a high probability, that's what I believe there is a high probability that this can succeed. And I believe that it is worth it. I don't think that a single life is worth this, but our lives are already lost. And I don't know how to deal with that, like, so should you continue this, like, if I knew that if you don't continue this, then life will not be lost in the demonstrations. But if you continue it, and life will be lost, then I would say, but that's not true, because the military kills anyway, the military will maybe not kill the Burmese people, but they will go to the ethnic minorities, and they will start their massacres there as they did during the military rule. So it's not true that, that you would save lives by not going to demonstrations, it's just that different lives will be saved. So I don't want to provide any word for this. I personally, cherish life, very much of every living being. And I don't want to join in this, but whatever is the good that we can do from our side, supporting following the five precepts for everybody supporting everybody in, in their good deeds in their protecting of, of the freedom predicting of democracy protecting of, of their rights of their basic human rights, which is what I understand under democracy that we need, we need to join wholesale, we need to get together we need to do it, everybody who's hearing this, everybody who knows about the Myanmar issue, please join, please help, please do whatever, you know, again, in the limits of five precepts, that that can support the people either psychologically or physically, or in terms of the final aim.
Host 2:22:20
Thank you. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And we were talking about the individuals. How about the greater organizations? How about outside of Myanmar, monasteries, Buddhist societies, meditation organizations? Do you feel that these have a role in this time to take some kind of moral stand to take some kind of action? If so, what
Ashin Sarana 2:22:45
they will need to assess their capabilities and their safety. So as we could see, there were groups of learned masters learned Burmese masters, who issued statements, you know, such thing to this military, the three points and one, no more violence, please, number two released political prisoners. Number three, respect the elections from November 9 2020. But I think they're like groups, you know, they're very carefully assigned as groups instead of one person. And each person each month, each monitor needs to assess their abilities and their safety. So if they feel, hey, we can issue a statement, I believe that that's a good good opportunity to issue a statement. If they cannot do it, then please, at least accept the people who are coming to you and who are sharing with you the suffering that they're going through, and provide them with these provide them with some kind of relief, allow them to tell whatever they have to tell if they want to cry, allow them to cry as much as they cry and be there with them, you know, shine all your loving kindness, power and compassion, power, whatever it is that you have ever accrued throughout your monastic life towards those people and give them this, this happiness give, give, give them this opportunity to to be happy, at least at the moment when they visit the monastery. So when they speak to the monk or a nun. Thank you.
Host 2:24:36
Thank you again for that. Those are very impassioned words, and very inspiring. And those messages will go out to many people, I hope. So. I think at this point, I've covered everything that I've wanted to ask. I really appreciate the time that you've taken. And before we go, you know, I know that you're engaged in a lot of what has happened. There, you're pouring your own heart into it. So is there anything that I haven't covered in my questions or my talk that you want to make sure to get out now?
Ashin Sarana 2:25:13
I think we could cover the The good thing. I've tried to cover title just a little bit, but I think it was not enough. You know, we need to remember, the good thing you know, of the Burmese people, the Burmese corrector, the Burmese abilities, of the Burmese people, the Burmese intelligence and wisdom, and patience as number one, are something that really should never be missed from any interview about the present. Myanmar situation, the the powers of the people in terms of patience, are, you know, I could like if you told it to me that there's people like this, I would say, No, certainly, you're just you're, you are telling me a fairy tale. But it's incredible how these people are patient. Like, I've read it in one of the articles that that you have published, that was very nice that the article mentioned that the people like they could steal the guns from from the police, and they could shoot into the police, they could destroy their cars, they could puncture their the tires in their vehicles, they could simply arrest the people could arrest the soldiers. There are times when when the soldiers or the police like really can do nothing, and there's so many of them. And they do nothing of that they do nothing. Yes, of course we see in very rare instances we see and throwing stones at the police. But what is that, you know, in comparison to the police shooting into the people by their guns, there is no way and the police they have these shields, you know, which they can easily use to protect themselves against the stones, whereas the people have no no bulletproof vests, you know, to protect themselves. And no bulletproof helmets and masks because the police shoot into their heads not into their chests. So this is incredible how Burmese people are inventive, and they try their best to find peace. So methods to continue only to to just say what they what they wish that that's all what they do. They just explain, hey, we want to get this person released. Hey, we want the selections, that basically that's all what what they want to say. And nothing else. They're not damaging the the police or military positions. They're not invading, they're not harming them. They're not doing anything at all, even after they are killed after they're beaten. After they're rudely beaten after they are in prison for no reason how after the police shoots into their windows after the police damaging damages their vehicles regardless who is the owner of the of the vehicles after the police invade into their home and just randomly arrest people who were no. Even though this happens, the people stay patient and they continue in their peaceful demonstrations. This is incredible. This is something that even if the UN doesn't care that there are people killed even if the UN or sec and or anybody else doesn't care whether there is military or somebody governing at least how the people by considering how much they avoid any violence at all, only as appreciation of the peoples non violence, the people and the people of Myanmar deserves 100% effort and action from all the international community.
Host 2:29:29
Right. And I think that this goes back to what I said a little bit ago that it's really only during a time of a crisis or a breakdown that you truly get to see someone's inner character and your friendship to them as well. And I think that that's true on an individual level. And I think that what we're seeing now this is rewriting the history of the world in terms of what protests can be the Unity the good wholesome qualities that are coming from the side of the protesters. And I think that however, Myanmar has been understood or misunderstood through the years, this is their true character coming out now in the face of a terror that no one sitting listening to this could ever contemplate what they would do or how they would be if they were in that moment. And so I think, as we're seeing the response on the ground, this is that true character and strength of the Burmese people, which is just, which is just taking a breath away, which is just something that we almost can't believe, as you say, is real in the world that in situations and circumstances as these, they can respond the way that they are over and over again. So with that, I think we've come to a good stopping point. So I really appreciate the time, the courage, the eloquence that you've brought here, I know how much you're holding, I know how much you're doing. It's meant the world to me. And I think it also means the world to our listeners, and we send our best wishes to you and to your health, to your well being and the gratitude for everything that you're doing for those people close around you and those people that are a bit further away, but who you are speaking for in their welfare,
Ashin Sarana 2:31:30
thank you very much for for this great opportunity. I as I've already told you in a message, I believe that any interview in in the sands any effort, bad that you are doing for disseminating, or I'll just say that for spreading the information of what exactly is happening, and applying a kind of urgency applying a kind of, you know, kind of pressure on on your audience to support the matter, you happen to support you happen to help 54 million people. So whatever further efforts in this direction, not just from you, but any of the listeners are very much needed are very much needed. And I thank you very much that I could participate in this one.
Host 2:32:38
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