Transcript: Episode #40: Drawing a Line Between Hope and Fear
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Kyawt Thiri Nyunt, which appeared on March 15, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
While this podcast platform typically explores the spiritual biographies of practitioners in Myanmar, along with delving into the different meditation traditions there, we have somewhat shifted our focus to respond to this current crisis. While we will definitely continue to interview guests who could share Buddhist perspectives, and depart wisdom at this time of need, we will be expanding our work to talk with a wider range of speakers who can add to the breadth and depth of our coverage, so that listeners can better understand the nature of the current crisis. And if there are additional topics or guests that you would like to suggest, please do so by writing us at info at Insight myanmar.org. With that, let's get on to our show. Hey,
01:13
a good day.
Host 01:40
I'm here with john. She is in California joining us she is originally from Myanmar and is going to share a bit of her background and perspective on the current situation. So first of all, john, I just would like to thank you for being here. Spending time with us. And I'm sure for all of us has been a bit of a difficult month.
Kwayt 02:05
Yeah, well, thanks for having me. Yeah, quite a difficult month quite a difficult day, actually. Because I woke up to the news that says 54 people were killed today. And these protests, so every day, I feel like I'm waking up to something you. Yeah. So it's been tough. But thank you so much for having me here. I'm excited to share my thoughts and my experiences. Yeah.
Host 02:39
Right. So of course, this isn't going to be released right after we record. So it'll be several more days of news. By the time this is out there. We are working to have as quick a turnaround as we can with these events. But I had the same reaction you did. I woke up as I do every morning, looked at my phone to see how bad the news was in hope all my friends were okay. And when I saw the same news, you did, I cried in bed for about 20 minutes. And I cried so much that I had to use the sheets to wipe the tears from my eyes and and then I and then I just stayed there paralyzed for a little bit. Unable to get up. So you know, we definitely a background the both of us have in the emotion of the of this interview was how hard the day was and how painful some of those stories and pictures were. And we don't know what's going to happen in the days. After this, we finished this recording when it will be released. So we'll both do the best we can. And with that, if we could switch gears just for a moment and just learn a little bit about you about where you came from, what your story is how you ended up in sunny california.
Kwayt 03:56
Yeah. So I grew up I was born and raised in yongle. In a township called youngin. Both my parents were, you know, first generation college students really work their way up to be able to support us. They were just both small business owners. So throughout a, you know, just ordinary efforts for a nice childhood. I went to government schools all throughout, but very fortunately, in my neighborhood, there was a teacher named teacher arraign, who taught English to me for free, like throughout my whole life. So I started speaking English when I was three. That's very fortunate and a rare of like a very rare opportunity that a lot of, you know, verbis kids don't get unless your parents are wealthy or you can afford to go to an international school. Yeah, so I was born and raised there. After I finished my matriculation eight exams in 10th grade, I went to a college called Young University of Foreign Languages for a year and a half. I was studying Korean with the hopes to maybe go to Korea one day, and you'll study entertainment and whatnot. But as I was in college, it's just No, there's something in me since I was a young girl that I didn't really fit in the mold of the government schools that are they tell you to not ask questions, if they teach you one method. That's it. So it's a part of me. Yeah.
Host 05:38
Can you tell us a bit more about the schools because I think there's probably a lot of listeners here that don't have any idea how a myanmar government school would be different from a school in a western country?
Kwayt 05:47
Yeah, so most numerous government schools that are, you know, run, obviously, by the military. And one thing very just visually very prominent is all students have to wear a uniform of white top and a green bottom. So you can identify a government student, school student, just by looking at them, we always were a batch that says which school we're from. And systematically the schools that why not there is a difference between each school of which is a better school in terms of which is the top school. And I actually don't know what the criteria is very arbitrary. It's just that people say, oh, like TTC, for example, is a top of government school and most rich kind of wealthier kids or military family kids go there. I went to one of the better ones, too. But, um, yeah, most of these schools just in terms of education that they provide, it's never critical thinking or expressing your creativity. Part of it is propaganda. But we have to learn that I think the textbooks are really rigged in favor to especially history in favor to the military government, and also kind of very nationalistic way very anti foreign propaganda in there, too. And a lot of those, these schools are also somewhat associated with religion. So every morning, we would have to come to school or as we're walking into school, they'll play like either the national anthem or some propaganda songs. And students come in and we stand in an assembly line where the shortest kid goes into the front and the tallest kids in the back. And if you mess up the order, the teachers will, either What do you are really scold you? If you think about it's like, very militarize thing for children like young children. Yeah. And a lot of education they provide, it's just straight up rote memorization, the teacher teaches to you a sentence or something, that's exactly what you have to write down in an exam, no interpretation, no freedom to come up with your own solution to a math problem. That says just the basics. And in schools every morning, we would have to do maybe like 30 minutes of Buddha's prayers. All kids just sing the sermons together, while kids from other religions to set outside. So it never cater to say, Muslim students, or any Christian students or any students from any other religion. I think that itself first, not only just creating the fight, but kind of given an okay to kids to sort of bully other kids who didn't fit in the Burmese Buddhist mold. So, you know, growing up, like being Burmese and Buddhists, like me, is kind of equivalent to being white and Catholic or Christian in America.
Host 09:23
Right, right.
Kyawt Thiri Nyunt 09:24
We just held a more systematic power. And,
Host 09:28
but even more so it sounds like because there's not the same separation of church and state that, at least by theory and law were supposed to have here. It seems like the the law there was actually written, we're encouraged to have the religion and nationalism be combined from a young age.
Kyawt Thiri Nyunt 09:46
Yeah, absolutely. And not only just the law like it, in some ways, just planting that sort of seed into children's mine. Just you know, just thinking about thinking back of the images. My Christian and Muslim Prince sitting outside the classroom where all the Buddhist kids were inside doing an activity together in a child's mind. It almost felt like oh, something is something wrong with me. That defied in sort of discrimination that they created. And not only because the teachers are doing it and makes us think that this kind of thing is okay if you're not Buddhists sure something's wrong with you is kind of the mentality I think the the military government is kind of systematically created to create the fight with within people because it's perma is not a not diverse place. If you go downtown young girl and you see a cathedral, you see a mosque next to it. And in the middle of the town is a Buddhist temple, a block away is a Hindu temple, you see people of different religions and ethnic groups everywhere yet they're very underrepresented. Because in everything is so Burma nysed.
Host 11:10
Right, and not even other Buddhist ethnicity. So even like Sean ermine or Quran, or Rakhine Buddhists even even following a similar religion, the ethnic characterization of that religion can be can be different and can be reinforced and separated.
Kyawt Thiri Nyunt 11:28
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even schools in those states, you know, the official language is Burmese. So if you're tion kid, growing up in Shan state, it's, you know, speaking some sort of dialect or language, you're still forced to speak Burmese. And if you don't, there's almost like absolutely no chance for you to climb up the social ladder or go to college. So those kind of things, I think it was very intentional, just part of the whole scheme of how they stay in power.
Host 12:07
And how about your home life? So how did you so this is kind of the environment that you were in school? What kind of traditional home Did you come from in terms of how Buddhism meditation perhaps was practiced?
Kyawt Thiri Nyunt 12:17
Yeah, I mean, my both my parents were devout Buddhists. They were more, you know, they're open minded people don't so my dad has a lot of Muslim friends and business partners from different religions. So they weren't very extreme, compared to, you know, some groups of people, people, but religion and practice is still over, still wasn't very prominent thing in my life. Every morning, my mom would wake up early, she would go to a shrine, you know, which is kept really nice. It's a Golden Buddha statue with flowers. And even like, before she eats anything, she would offer the shrine, the food that we're going to have for the day that she cook. That's like the first thing she does say with my dad, he will wake up, the first thing he does after washing his face or taking a shower is to go in front of the shrine and pray. So same hat, same was kind of enforced on us, but my parents weren't too strict. So we were asked to do that on in a very forceful way, but we just did it because oh, this is a good thing to do. So me and my sister both would do that in a lot of the travels, or mostly religious travels, like family vacations and whatnot, you know, it's called pay up who put it? It's, it's kind of almost equivalent to having a vacation for a Buddhist family. You know, sometimes it's resorts and whatnot. But most of the time, it's going to a different state, to a famous temple. And going to a very specific monastery to go see this famous monk who is claimed to have some sort of powers or, you know, your wishes come true or something. So it would go to a lot of places like the jto Pagoda in maan state, the Golden State golden rock. Now the golden rock that's really popular, I think among Buddhists, fat like families, I probably been there at least like six, seven times. And
Host 14:38
it's really funny. it cracks me up because a friend of mine was telling me a friend who's been in the country for a long time, remembered when the country started to open up around the 90s or so. And they really had this promotion of tourism, kind of limited tourism. And he said how like these early turn tours that started all the tour companies. All they did was take foreigners on trips were all they did was see pagodas every day all day. And they just because they didn't under I mean, it was such a devout Buddhist mind state that even when people were coming from that didn't have any interaction with Buddhism, they couldn't imagine any other travel or trip that could be organized, organized around anything except just seen pagodas all day every day.
Kyawt Thiri Nyunt 15:20
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're even so for example, pecan is very popular amongst the tourists too. But for I think, a little bit of different reasons than why it's popular amongst, you know, the Buddhist Burmese people. There, I remember, like, maybe like, when I was in my teens, I would go, I went with my grandma and aunt. And then that whole time, the poor group, arranged it, arranged to visit all the different temples, but apparently, they all all these temples have to be visited before noon. Only then like the effect of like, whatever wish he made or something comes through, like there's not only kind of Buddhism as perceived by the West, or Buddhism, as is written on the scriptures, but as him in Burma is very much intertwined with just your, with the culture, too, with a lot of super, like superstition, because in a lot of houses, you will see not only the Buddhist shrine, but many other trains that are called nuts. Not worship, is really huge. I mean, it was a lot of people worshiped nuts before the king, an Oracle came in and brought Theravada Buddhism. So it's still a prompt, prominent thing. So it's Yeah, it was very interesting. It's just not just like meditation and talking about trying to achieve nirvana and peace as we kind of perceive maybe in the West, what what Buddhism is? Yeah, a lot of it is just culture. And like,
Host 17:06
yeah, that's interesting, because it reminds me of how when people in this country in the West are coming to me and Mara, especially for meditation, or monasticism, they're often coming from a background of meditation, they've taken a silent meditation retreat, or they're interested in Theravada Buddhism. And so, and even today, when I see online, a lot of these meditators living in different countries, outside of me and Mar trying to understand the current situation, they're understanding it through a prism largely of their isolated meditation practice. And that particular part of Buddhist experience of Burmese Buddhist experience, but not understanding how the greater parts fit into it. And what was so interesting for me when I first got there, and it took me so long to kind of understand this and realize it was the sense that, so I'm coming to the country with a with a real interest in meditation, I mean, I'm following the five precepts. And I have respect for monks. And for people who are following this more noble path. And I believe in the basic Buddhist doctrine, I'm meditating several hours a day and doing intensive retreats. And so on one hand, I have so much in common with people of the culture, and they really welcomed me into this kind of inner sanctum of, you know, religious experience. And spirituality is this really special kind of bond and connection that we have. But as I start spending longer there, there's like this disconnect, I don't really get. And over time, I started to realize where this disconnect came from was that partly was that meant practicing meditation in my own society, put me in this kind of like rarefied progressive, and, you know, free thinking, kind of liberal mode of spirituality. And when I was doing that same practice back in Myanmar, that was actually, that practice was fitting inside a much more conservative, traditional, religious mainstream function. And so like, even though we really shared a lot of the commonalities of how we held the practice, and how we even held the goal of the practice, and held certain doctrines, all those things were similar, some of those beliefs around it, and the traditional aspect in which meditation was opera operating, to say nothing about what you said, you know, the superstition, the, and the animist beliefs, the kind of just cultural beliefs. I mean, there's certain you can call them religious cultural beliefs that are much more about Myanmar than they are and much more about Burmese culture than they are about anything that's in the scriptures. I mean, sometimes there's no scriptural reference at all. It's just a belief that's taken on. This is how you should behave towards monks. So this is how monk should act. And actually, there's nothing in the Scriptures for that. It's just the way that monks have come to be held in Burmese society. And so there's, you know, you've done the reverse. You've came from that Burmese Buddhist culture into the West, I've gone the other way, but it's and I think when When someone's come from one direction to the other and bend in those different societies, it's really interesting to be able to talk about how it's held in one place and how it's held in another. I mean, you're in California, so you must come in contact with kind of Neo Buddhist thought and all kinds
Kyawt Thiri Nyunt 20:16
of, absolutely, there's a spirit rock meditation center center, just like in so I live in clinical Marin County, just to the west, there's a big meditation center, one kind of up north, you know, there's a lot of interests in Buddhism, because where I am is prominently kind of wealthy, white fat, like families were very educated, but also have interest in this kind of stuff. So I've been to a couple of these meditation places like it's nothing like Buddhism, so different for for me, it's Well, I mean, to some some ways, it might be a little just whitewash to be made. That's why because I felt like, well, this isn't really what I practice or how I grew up with. Yeah, but yeah, you're absolutely right. It's just it's the way that Buddhism is perceived in practice is just so fundamentally different back home than here.
Host 21:23
Right. And so you were telling me before we started the interview that you were. So you talked, you've talked a little bit about how Buddhism was practiced in your home about how it was practice in the school. And then in addition to that, you were also sent to these Buddhist summer camps north of young guns, what was that about?
Kyawt Thiri Nyunt 21:38
So yeah, it wasn't more like mabi, it's one of the very prominent month have think he was one of the first month is sort of popularized that kind of program to So traditionally, summer programs for kids or region are usually more a little more rigid. And strict is just mostly teaching kids how to speak polite, or maybe learn a little bit of body and some Buddhist scriptures and learn that meditation. So he created this campus built very beautiful, he is still the differences, he still let the children play. And we weren't forced to wear Yagi uniforms. Which blades Yeah, like the white and the brown. Form is something that you would wear, where a lot of people go into these kind of meditation or just religious retreats. you adopt, like those practices for however long of a period of time that you're in it, but that was one of the rare camps that he has started. But still going into those, you know, it's, it's very Buddhist, he, he loved children, and were allowed to ask questions and whatnot. So that was the main difference that he had. But still, it was strange to me kind of just as a child being sent to a meditation camp, or it's hard to get 13 year old children meditate.
Host 23:27
No matter what you meditate there.
Kwayt 23:29
Yeah, we had to it's part of sometimes, like, up to an hour, two hours. I don't know how children did that. But you know, somewhat driven by force, because I think, at least for me, and I can't speak, you know, this, I can speak for all my other friends who went through the same experience. Right part of it. Yeah, I learned I think good virtues and kind of it's shaped me in a positive way, but also some parts of it. It felt like religion was forced upon me, like I've said, Before, I didn't perceive myself as a Buddhist because I came to learn more about about it, or I came to admire more aspects of Buddhism by myself. It was just something I was born it more width, and it was just at birth, you are already inserted an identity that you must have. And then you must follow. So those meditation cams and whatnot, just reinforced that for me, kind of a line of thinking that No, I'll always be Buddhist, Burmese. I'd never thought of marrying a person from a different race or different religion used to be almost a sin. You know, if Yeah, so that's, it's that's kind of a line of thinking in my family, too. Although when events really happened, they were very open minded about about it. They tried really hard because they loved me. But yeah, in the beginning, there's still a sentiment that it's just not a thing to? I don't know.
Host 25:17
Yeah. But there was one question I was gonna ask. So you've talked about? Yeah, so you've talked about how Buddhism was held in your school about how it was practiced devoutly in your family, and then how you would actually go to these extended camps where you would learn virtues, and maybe a little doctrine, and definitely some meditation during the day. And so I'm curious at that, at that age, at that time, how you were holding your Buddhist identity, you mentioned just now, how you all the thing, all of these practices did enforce some kind of way of thinking about your identity and kind of solidifying that. But beyond that shape of identity. Was it also taking a role in terms of your interactions with the religion with the teachings with the, the practice of meditation? or How was it shaping your understanding of who you were and and what the purpose of this teaching practice was?
Kwayt 26:10
Yeah. I mean, at that time, of course, I never thought about it, I just did it. Because my parents wanted me to do it. I just did it. Because all my friends are going and, you know, besides being a meditation camp, it's fun to be with your friends away from your parents for the summer. Yeah, I mean, in in many ways, because the way Buddhism always inserted on like, you know, just peace and Ninja is one word that's very common, I think that you treat everyone with kindness, kindness, even your enemies and whatnot. So I think that shaped me in a way throughout my life, even like, now, maybe some of it is help healthy, but some of it could be unhealthy too. As in when I feel like I never allow myself to be mad at someone, right? You know, because I always tried to, kind of, because that's, that's told to be such a fortune is such a righteous way to live, you always put yourself in someone's shoes. And even if there's such a bad person, you still treat them with, you know, good, like good humanize the puppy word or mytho just know with love and kindness. And the, the ultimate path, if someone you've just can't get along, you ignore them is kind of ignorance. It's kind of like another virtue that they have taught us. So maybe it made me some somewhat, I know, in my interactions with people here, you know, even with my interaction with my husband, who was born and raised, you know, he's Caucasian. Here, you know, foreigners kind of atheist sort of way. And I feel like, in many ways, my interaction with people here is whenever there's conflict conflict, the default is either I tried to think me being mad is my fault. Or being angry is just just not a good thing. And if, and if you just don't get along with someone, a friend or someone who you're working on in a project, the tendency is to try to treat them as nicely as you can. And in the end, if you can't ignore but never kind of confronting and really standing for your grout, or what do you think?
Host 28:57
Yeah, that's really interesting, because in my experience, and being in the country, I think, I think you're touching upon both what a virtue it is, as well as when it's on the other side, which I think I personally think whatever good qualities any person or even kind of a cultural quality is that there's always these two sides of it, the the how it comes out well, and then how it kind of goes over to the other side where you have to start looking at how it's coming out. For me being in Myanmar. I've never been in a country where there's been such a high degree where I felt so much personally tolerance and acceptance where I felt so much forbearance where I've screwed up, intentionally or unintentionally, so many times and I've just been responded to with almost unconditional love and almost like Never mind, never mind. And so on one hand, seeing how that was related to me and also when I would face a difficult situation and seeing kind of these better angels brought Mind of how something can be dealt with it was really quite beautiful and really seeing that, okay, this is a whole kind of starting the wheel of, of frustration or anger, it's other stuff, I don't have to do that I can just I don't even have to go there. And that that was something that I really learned and benefited greatly from being in the culture was just how much forbearance was shown. But then as I started to be there longer, I don't know if this is what you're getting at. But I did feel like I started to see another side of that. And that other side was that sometimes there can be an emotion that comes that you can just choose not to give food to, you can just say, I'm not going to go there. That's not, that's not good, that's not healthy. For me, I have this wise understanding of the role of karma that I'm going to bring to mind and I'm just not going to put coals on the fire, it can be very powerful. But then there could be other scenarios where you kind of have to have different tools in your toolbox to work with them, where that anger is already there, or that that deep pain or discomfort is already there. And so the question is that the way of looking at the analogy is not so much putting coals on a fire or not, the analogy would be this fire is burning, and I can I can accept that it's there or not, I can either suppress that this fire is in front of me and tell myself the superficial Buddhist wisdom that will allow me to try to pretend it's not there and to behave the way I want. Or I can go deeper into the actual Buddhist wisdom and say, there is suffering, there is defilement and I am a human who has not been enlightened yet. And so I can admit and process this defilement that's in me and right now this defilement is I am so angry at this person, I want to slap him in the face. And I could own that feeling, I don't have to do the thing. But I can own that feeling and explore the difficulty and the pain that this anger is upon me. And so sometimes I would see this, this dichotomy between a certain negative emotion that would start to come and just not giving any food for it that was just so inspiring and so wonderful, and would teach me so much about how you didn't have to go there. But then other times I would see an emotion or a city or even just a bad situation that was clearly there. And a kind of awkwardness or refusal to want to acknowledge it and want to explore it and thinking that well, the Buddha taught that we're not supposed to have these emotions, or we're not supposed you know, it's better to think in this way. No, that's not what the Buddha taught, the Buddha taught that these emotions are there, and we have to go into them and explore it. And he gave us tools for being able to do so. So I don't know if that was similar to what you were getting out.
Kyawt Thiri Nyunt 32:30
No, that's absolutely right. It's just, I think the other another thing that plays into it is culture. You know, as you know, I've mentioned, like I mentioned before, Buddhism back home is just so intertwined with just being you know, the Burmese way or whatever, it's kind of we like, like you were saying, never mind, never mind, your body, you know, equal equivalent of it. And you know, in the other word on it, that doesn't plate into English, you know, because people just don't want to be someone else's people are really afraid to be someone else's burden. And they always want to help others and in some ways, you know, I find myself when I got here, it's kind of always worrying to sort of ask help from someone or just learning to say, Hey, I'm not. Okay, can you help me is sort of, because you're always on on to what someone else said. Yeah, so that's one of the things that I definitely kind of faced, kind of transition myself into being a Burmese American.
Host 33:52
You know, what year did you come over here? How old were you?
Kwayt 33:54
Yeah. 19. And I'm 26. Now so it's been? Yeah, it's kind of seven, eight years. And yeah, I've been still learning I don't think I'll ever be like Burmese American or Burmese or American, I think always be it's, you know, when I go home, I don't feel Burmese when I'm here. I definitely don't feel American. So it's just finding that voice. But going back to you know, what you were saying? You know, for how much like love and kindness just in general, like the people in Myanmar have, and how much anger that I've been seeing nowadays to speak to the depth of what this dictatorship has done to people. You know, it's because for people like my grandma, this is the third time it has happened. For my for my mom, she's he's he was. She faced the 1988 revolution and like 2007. And then now that's so it's, it's my grandma's cussing, and using that words, you know that so? Yeah, you know, because of me and then that's one thing that I've been sort of inspiring for me to see is that people, even older people to who was raised in a very religious way are now I think, being able to stray away from traditional virtues of what being a Burmese Buddhist moon, and then trying to fight for their freedom. I've never seen more unification between different ethnic groups and religions now. And as much as many lives has been sacrificed, I think, coming out of this, on the other side, I think there's a different kind of, I don't know, culture, like almost a different Burma or different Myanmar just waiting for us. Because, you know, people, especially with this ruling, it issue that a lot of like, Burmese put us like, even my family to kind of denying, and, you know, standing on the side of Amazon to gene was a lot of what people did back home when the, you know, when we were charged for genocide. And now I see a lot of older people, or people who stood there scientists coming out and saying, like, Oh, I pledge after this happened, I will be kinder to ethnic minorities in the world. And I'm willing to admit my mistakes. So in a way, I think that has changed a lot of the way people perceive different religions, and different ethnic groups.
Host 37:11
Yeah, so before we started recording, you were talking about how when you got to America, that you also became interested in therapy and understanding the role of trauma. And that's really interesting, because in the West, already, there's quite an intersection between this kind of therapeutic work and where meditation fits into that. And again, this is something where you came from a reverse of how many people do it here where they start with a therapy and emotions, and then they get into meditation. You started with Buddhism and meditation and the understanding the role of karma, and metta and those other things. And then once coming to the west, you then opened up to exploring, going to therapy. So I'm curious what how that came about, and what intersections you saw with your previous Buddhist training, and then being in the West and trying this, this practice. That's much more common here.
Kwayt 38:08
Yeah, I mean, therapy came about, because, you know, college is stressful. And I came here with, like a full merit scholarships. So I had a lot of pressure like, not just me, I think this applies to a lot of Burmese students who came to study abroad, with scholarships, especially if they're not from a rich, wealthy family. It's just, I just feel an obligation to do something for people back home, and that's the pert like this, the pressure, I feel like I constantly just carry on throughout college, and sometimes, you know, it's like a 20 year old can just carry just so much college is sometimes just enough stress to put it on, you know, a person. So that's when I started seeing it first is just to address in manage my stress learn with college, but the more and more kind of I explore it into it. I started learning how, like me and the way I do things, how much how much of it was actually affected by just growing up in a military dictatorship alone. Because, you know, I went to a school on a street where all sensitivities resident was so during high school, there's always armed guards in front of her house and have to pass by the building a pacifier house almost every day and just the thought of just consciously or unconsciously, as a child to seeing armed guards and guns all the time in front of a school, which is a space that a child should feel safe and happy. And you know, just learning about the world that never always kind of instill fear. To me, and also because of beatings in schools by the teachers. It doesn't have
Host 40:31
teachers beat the students. Yeah,
Kwayt 40:32
it doesn't happen as much anymore. You know that culture is change changing. But, you know, when I was young, just for breaking, like a small rule, not even like really breaking a rule, I just asked a teacher a question, you know, about Matt, like, some map prompt, like problem, I said, Oh, can we not do it this way, too, it is short, I was coming up with a better solution to a problem. But, you know, it says like, Oh, you're so talkative. So she made me kneel in front of the class in front in front of the whiteboard. And then like, what my foot had to take off my slippers. And, and it's just not a lot of kids went through this sort of experience. And it's very, it was very normalized. So fear is, you know, the primary tactic used by the military, and it's institutionalized. It is embedded in educational practices. So that really shaped I think me in a way that, you know, when I came here to is just, I do a lot of things with fear. Fear of losing something, because that calm, it's true, like any day at any time you speak about something, you're automatically thrown into prison. I had my godparents more like they were neighbors who kind of took care of me to this as a prominent thing. They were relative to awesome. Sushi. So one day, they were just snapped taken away from me for years in prison for doing absolutely nothing. You know, and then it's the same as the protests that's happening now people just peacefully protesting and there's no warning, just playing, shooting. It's not a crackdown, it's a killing. So, when you grow up in that kind of environment, I feel like a lot of things I do, I'm so afraid to lose something, there's consciously or unconsciously always fear in the back of my head of, you know, something I say, or something I do what put me into danger. Like, at first, even coming to the United States, kind of the culture of, you know, having professors and teachers who are extremely, very friendly, especially in California, you know, like my some of my professors come to class and flip flops, and it's very casual, they give you don't that go in complain about your boyfriend? You know, it's a very friendly sort of culture here. That's very what asked, the questions are very encouraged. So at first that was that was a bit of culture shock to is just, yeah, like talking back to a teacher when you see that they're making a wrong point correcting. So all sorts of things like that.
Host 43:41
Yeah, it's so interesting. It's interesting, again, because this is where our lives intersect, because I initially went to me and Maher to run teaching and training courses. So just as you were coming from that traditional environment, to, to a place like the West, I was actually kind of bringing that West into a traditional environment. And I had such interesting experiences with my students, and my students were probably in their, like, you know, early to mid 20s. So they were they were mature young adults, but such interesting things that I was dealing with that remind me of what you're saying. So like, one of those things, is that it's just the I really wanted to break down the the role and the authority of the teacher and to help them see their own learning. And so I would do things on the very first day little tricks to show my, my infidelity my to show like my, my lack of complete authority, I would I would kind of intentionally embarrass myself, to show that I was doing something wrong. And then I would dramatically call attention to the things I did wrong. And kind of highlight like, Oh, so is your teacher not perfect, like is this can this really be the case that your teacher doesn't know everything and they would, they would start to kind of see this and then I would play on that to break it down more one time I would, I would give them a group activity to do and while they were doing it, I was start to move further and further away. And then I would yell out, you know, stop, like, have you been learning this time? And they would say, yeah, yeah, we have. And I would say, Well, what was your teacher doing to help you learn? And they would all look a little bit uncomfortable, because obviously, I wasn't doing anything. And, and they wouldn't say anything, as I've always I stand in. And they point where I was standing, I was like, kind of like out the door? And I would say, so do you mean that it's actually possible for you to be learning without your teacher being involved? And they would kind of start to slowly smile and shake their head? Yes. So it was this kind of like integrating this knowledge into them that I wasn't perfect. And as their teacher, I wasn't perfect. And I also wasn't essential to their learning process, starting to kind of build them up and give them more confidence. So they could learn on their own and see things on their own. And that would develop further day by day and week by week, to when we would we would give each other feedback in the class, we would do different different experiences, and whatever the training was, we would do them. And then we would all share how we felt. And in the beginning, when I did this, the answers were always things like, well, we, we felt like this, or we felt like that. And I would have to break down I statements and saying take responsibility for how you feel and expressing that. And that led to these fascinating conversations of how uncomfortable they were to say anything that would make anyone else feel uncomfortable, you know, to say, like, I didn't like this activity, because or I felt awkward because of this. And so we would, I would have to develop like days of workshops to just investigate why it was okay to own your feelings and to say, you know, I felt this way at this moment. And that you can phrase this in a way where no one feels uncomfortable. And actually everyone learns and grows by being able to hear your experiences, and know that okay, well, this is how this person felt, and this is how this felt. And so that gives me information about what what I was doing what I was saying. So we could and the harmony actually in the unity actually increases by the sharing. So, you know, it's interesting. Yeah, I
Kwayt 47:01
mean, it's, it was it's, it's very, very interesting, because in some ways, Bernie people can be really blunt, and kind of, you know, speak, speak their mind in some contexts. I, you know, not to, like, blame the dictatorship again. But I do think a lot of, I don't know, people, people's behaviors like that really come on comes from just being in the military government, because you can be thrown into jail for speaking your mind at any time. Even if, you know, even if they like me, a lot of Asian cultures tend to be less confrontational and expressing, you know, belief, a bunch of feel, yeah, maybe there's some truth to that. But I think there's another layer added on to it as an consciously unconscious, and like I was, you know, experiencing with myself, I'm always fearful. Because just my experiences seeing guns in front of my school, or just seeing soldiers everywhere. In the school place, just thinking about my teachers who whip us for just absolutely, almost no reason. So that fear kind of, you know, follows me, and sometimes, you know, it's because it's 19 years of my life living through that. So it's crawling every word, even when I'm now in a safe space. Some sometimes that comes up, and I feel like, yeah, that's one of the biggest impact I think it has had on me. So imagine if someone is living in that country, for generations, and never had the chance to dissect how much this military has impress rivals, thoughts and their ways of expression. So I think the culture, that kind of cultural where people don't really express their emotions freely, I think comes from truly comes from just fear, because of the dictatorship.
Host 49:16
Right? And it might not just be the people aren't expressing their emotions, it might also be that internally, they're not themselves in touch with those emotions. And so when you started therapy, did that put you more in touch with emotions that you didn't know you had? And how did that go?
Kwayt 49:30
Yeah, I mean, it's a very interesting thing. You know, it's not only just fear, there's a lot of things I had to unpack. It's kind of the role of woman kind of the rule of being an oldest daughter in a family or just being like, you know, oldest child or you expected to really take care of your family after you have attained success and kind of inherent stuff. selflessness that I should have because I am an oldest daughter. unpacking all of that was a difficult thing. Because I sometimes feel that if I were just there and I never came here are never taught to therapy. In some ways I work with fine. Because this is the first sheet that's taught to be okay with it. A lot of my Auntie's did it. My mom did it. She's okay. She's, you know, happy, there's no some some things that of course, she needs to unpack and get in touch with herself. But I feel like it's sort of having a taste of what it is like to be a woman in a different society. Sort of making me angry and depressed about all the times I have a press, no, sorry, all the times I was oppressed, and also oppressed myself, and also stopped myself from speaking my mind. stop myself from doing something because I was a woman. You know, I think all that anger really only opened up when it came to there being when I came to here, especially, you know, like, a little more different in California to especially I went to like, small liberal arts college. Kind of, there's some hippie dippie. Professor. It's just a way of thinking about woman's role is not not to say America is perfect, either. There are so many issues we're still working on. But yeah, it's just everything just only poured up when I came here. Sort of, you know, put me into a depressed, angry state.
Host 51:58
Did therapy help you work through those emotions?
Kyawt Thiri Nyunt 52:01
Yeah, I mean, mostly through talking and just cognitive exercise, a lot of a lot of writing a lot of art, just to express and unleash this anger that I have in a healthy way, and also somewhat like a productive way. So I can help. You know, my friends, I can help create a safe space for someone as soon as going through the thing experiences that I did.
Host 52:33
Right? So you talk about the value of this therapy and dealing with these difficult emotions and letting them out in a productive way. And you've also talked about in your, your Buddhist background in Myanmar and growing up and the influence us, you saw that you you still hold this kind of metta and compassion and goodwill in a special place. And so where do these different belief systems come together? Like, I'm sure you haven't abandoned everything about the way that the values that were instilled with you? And then you mentioned that you learned some good things at summer camp. So where where did the good values of your traditional Burmese Buddhist education and family life come and your the the therapy that you're going through now and that you're gaining here in the West? How do you integrate those together?
Kwayt 53:15
Yeah, it's a very interesting thing. Because, I mean, when I first came here, when I first got into college, because I was taking a lot of other religion classes, too, you know, and it's, it's a great time to sort of explore and take off the skin that I've been wearing, you know, for 19 years in, go explore other like, ways of thinking, and sort of trying to craft my own belief system or practice. My practice hasn't really been a thing in the past. Few, like few years, it's not that like I abandoned my religion, I still identify as a Buddhist, actually. But I don't do a lot of the traditional things that I grew up doing. And I do intend to explore what form or sort of being a Buddhist that feels Truly Me, while not trying to appropriate my culture, my own culture and my own religion in a very Western condescending way, I'm only taking the good parts, like, I'm gonna make it my own sort of way. So I'm still coming into a place with that. But in terms of just I think, because I was a Buddhist, I think I was able to be very compassionate and empathetic towards a lot of people here, you know, because too deeply, really treating them what kind of not only helped my own inner peace but also So, allow me a platform to really understand where a person comes from, and why you know, why they are the way they are. Because after realizing like, the way I talk the way I think just the way I act, how much of it has actually come from my religious background, as well as my, you know, traumatic military dictatorship background, I, to me, you know, everybody on earth went through something like that. And, like, so sometimes, even if they're sort of a bad person, or somebody who doesn't get along with me, I think because of my Buddhist background, I'm able to kind of go into their shoes and really think, you know, why? Why are they like this, and not get angry at them and not feel righteous about, oh, you're wrong. And, you know, I'm right. Like, even when I'm encounter encountering a Trump supporter, or someone you know, who have very different beliefs than I am, you know, I will. And also I will allow myself to be angry when I need to be angry when someone saying some racist, sexist stuff, I'm not gonna sit there and oh, I'm trying to understand where you come from. Right? at those moments, I'm gonna step up and say what you're saying is really messed up a terrible person. So I think both these things have kind of gave me a space to sorry, gave me an opportunity to go to that place where, when I'm angry at someone, I'm allowing that to happen, I'm allowing my language to change. And I'm not gonna just emit Nipa over time to people who say terrible things like this, I'm not gonna even get out of the military government who staged a coup 2021 in that, so it's kind of a balance between, yeah, let myself be angry, let myself feel anything that I'm feeling, but also, in certain cases, just trying to be compassionate.
Host 57:25
Right. And so you've been doing all this therapy work in the West, and also integrating this Burmese Buddhist practice of metta into it as you as you as you do as you live there and integrating this into your being into your life. And then February 2020, what happened? Was this. Was this a trigger? Did this to this bring the trauma back and new and painful ways?
Kwayt 57:51
Yeah, I mean, I think this is true to a lot of, you know, Burmese citizens, too, we're just recovering. It's only really been five years that the country has some form of economic liberation, a tiny form of maybe equality, you know, just not only now, kind of small family owned businesses are having access to things like digital marketing, and online shopping, and in the country's only boot like, booming. And people are healing through that process. And bam, this happened, you know, it definitely triggered a lot of fear and the fear that a lot of my friends, including my family, a lot of the children who were just growing up, what have to go through the same exact thing that I have to go through, because it really, you know, like I said, really impacts your whole life. It's like a shadow lesson, you and you have to do a lot of work to undo all that internalized oppression in yourself. And I just really don't want another child to grow up with that kind of fear. So when this happened, of course, all the anger unleashed, you know, it's just the most violent thoughts I can have. And also allowing myself to have them and expressing that in, you know, more productive ways. Like I've been writing poetry, I've been doing art to unleash all of that. So there's a shared common ground for people who were feeling that way and Kent don't know how to express it or unleash it in people dealing with their own ways, but I think sometimes having a shared anger really makes me feel better to talk about it to a friend, or having people look at my art people messaging me like yeah, That's exactly how I feel like yes. Yeah, so it did trigger like a lot of fear I, since it started, I haven't been able to sleep really well honestly, like a melatonin or whatever, I would wake up periodically at night just checking my phone constantly. Because any time I couldn't lose a friend or
Host 1:00:28
a friend or material.
Kwayt 1:00:30
Yeah, so that itself was just and it's not like, I can say, oh, like today, I'm gonna do a social media cleanse and shut off my phone. Like, I feel like, I feel like that's although, you know, I'm also dealing with a lot of turmoil, I feel like that's such a privileged position to take,
Host 1:00:49
I was gonna say the same thing that's a privileged position to be able to do this, you know?
1:00:53
Yeah,
Host 1:00:54
maybe you like me, every single person I know is out. Yeah, I don't know, a single person who's inside. Yeah. And, and I see pictures of them. And these are the dearest people in my life. And these are the lot of these people are extremely apolitical. They're not there. They're they've, they're, they're some of the the dearest people I know are are Buddhist practitioners who live for nothing more than to do their own practice to do good deeds, and to help others who are on the path. There's nothing really more that defines them. And these are people sitting on the side of a road with a sign asking for their freedoms. And I I'm terrified for them. I'm terrified for all of them.
Kwayt 1:01:38
Yeah. And some friends of mine got tear gassed the other day, you know, my neighborhood was just read it yesterday, and some people got arrested. You know, so it's just things like that happening. And I feel, I feel like sometimes it's having a lot of impact on me in a way that I'm in constant anger and kind of worry, fear, you know, just checking in with family all the time checking my phone all the time. Sometimes, it's just hard to read news of 54 people with die today. Not like they were killed, you know, and kind of just go back to, I don't know, doing my job, or just everything else is feels. In a way so pointless. Because if this were to happen, again, most likely that you know, because last time it lasted decades, so who knows what, as much as I'm hopeful there's a side of me that very fearful that this will last many years again, I may never get to see my mom and my sister again. I may never get to see my best friends again, I may never get to drink that cup of jazzy at a roadside tea shop, you know, I may never get to see my grandma again. So it's just all those perks not only just personal thoughts of all my family, my friend, just also just thought of like, a lot of millions of people who have to go under this fear and oppression again, just it just makes me angry every single day. And worse yet this happened. Right? This happened in the middle of a pandemic. That's that's still there. And COVID ain't going away. Yeah, yeah. Because it was such a hopeful news to hear when, right before this happened. Burma has secured a lot of vaccines and one of the first countries in South Asia to do it for you know, how not wealthy The country is. And, you know, just just one example. So my sister, she finished college, right before all the COVID thing happened, she got into a master's program there, she started a new job as a teacher, and I'm just such a bright future ahead of her. So her master's program got delayed because of COVID. And it was about to start back this February because COVID wind it down there. And the coup happened, and just how crushing it must feel for young youth like her. And then now it's just so heartbreaking to see like, every youth I know all my friends, all my sister friends, all that generation z. h, these kids are saying if I die dot and they're going out every day, knowing they're gonna get shot at any time. It's not just like, Oh, I could get arrested or it could be a lawsuit. Just they know they could die and they're still going up. Yeah, yeah. So it's just it just breaks my heart. And also when you know, some sort of survivor's guilt to feel guilty that I'm sitting here and I'm in my office in beautiful California. I'm doing what I can, but I'm not. I'm not there. And I wish I was fighting. Now, I wish I was there to protect all these lives. That that I wish I was the one who died and not that innocent, 19 year old girl. I don't. So it's just, yeah, all those feelings is so hard to process every day. Yeah, yeah.
Host 1:05:37
Yeah. And I think when you mentioned that, the attitude you're hearing from people is if I die, I die. And no, they're knowing what they're going into. And I think that this taps directly in to this role of trauma that you're talking about, that I think that that trauma maybe has been suppressed. Internally, it's definitely not been talked about externally, and especially not to foreigners. And so I think this is a really important area, for those of us that really care about what's happening now and are not from the country is taking this opportunity to learn from you, in speaking for yourself and for others who are from there. And understanding maybe for the first time or maybe at a depth at this kind of depth for the first time. Just how intense this trauma is. And I think that I was talking about this on a recent podcast that that just got released a couple days ago, at least from when we're talking now. And I framed the question to the young activist in terms of sacrifice, he's he's a new, he just got married and found out he was a father last month, and he has a great job and young gun. And he's now on the front lines. And I framed the question in terms of how, how were you able to make a decision to make the sacrifice? And his answer was really hinting at this idea that that there is no sacrifice, the sacrifice involves the concept that you have a choice that you can do this or do that. And he laid out this scenario of what had happened before to him and to his family, and what would happen in the future to him and his wife and his unborn child. And that this was simply not a future that one could live under, by any means. And so as bad as the current situation is, it's not a sacrifice to go out and do what you're doing because a sacrifice infers that you have some choice of something that you're giving up to get something else, and there's nothing that there's, there's, there's no choice as he sees it. So I think that, and I think that this also goes into some of the MIS analysis that Western people might bring to it. Because when they look at the strength of the protest movement, and what protest movements can do in general, I think if you miss this depth of trauma, and pain and fear of how things were, you also miss the enthusiasm and the backs against the wall kind of mentality for doing any means necessary, at least up till now. Any nonviolent means necessary to be able to move forward and to not go back to that, even if moving forward is putting every single person we know and them in a danger at any moment? Right?
Kwayt 1:08:23
Yeah, absolutely. Right. Because some people were saying, I know a lot of kind of the Western experts was been speaking on this, and it's true. I think that's something that we don't see or have an embodied knowledge about, you know, we can only do so much reading and research about it. But we're not, like left to complete. And body awareness and knowledge about this. Is that Oh, COVID what happened to COVID? Like, people don't care about it. People don't care about getting paid right now. People don't, because anything of that is worse than the right. You know, that's it's not I'm sorry, it's not as bad as like living under the military. Because if yes, COVID happened, and they were under the military because Burma relatively handled COVID pretty well at the end. Just imagining if COVID were to happen under this military, how many lives we would have already lost to COVID or just in general just lives that we're losing every single day in a lot of the civil war zones and a lot of the other states that aren't maybe as talked about in the the military has been killing and killing, even with the civilian government in the front because they still hold a huge part of 25% of seats in the parliament and Sadly like weapon, just hold part of power over people. And they've been utilizing that to just kill and stay in power. So yeah, it's a tough situation. Subscribe trying to see very hopeful.
Host 1:10:23
Right. And I can see, you know, it's interesting because when you talk about your, your feelings that you're processing this month of the fear and the terror and the anger on one hand and on the other the sense of optimism and hope and Generation Z, we haven't yet talked about your artwork. But what I've seen of your artwork, you're reflecting those two sides, you know, you have an artwork that I should say, has been one of the artworks that's been very widely shared across all social media, I've seen whether you're credited or not, it's an artwork of three fingers being held up with think flowers between the fingers on a red background, obviously expressing some hope and optimism and then I've seen other drawings, you've done that, that that show the anger towards the generals, and unleash these these other kinds of feelings. So can you say more about what your what you're doing with your art these
1:11:15
days? Yeah.
Kwayt 1:11:18
Yeah, it's that I've never really thought of it that way. I think the art making is just how I'm feeling at the moment. Because Yeah, I'm I am living with that duality to some days, I feel very hopeful. Some days, I feel hope is because if you've seen a lot of the images that is coming up on social media about, you know, even people who have nothing like street vendors giving out free food, as much as they can, all these houses opening up to hide the protesters, no matter. Yeah, like people feeding each other mutual aid, have never seen that strong of a mutual aid in a protest. It doesn't happen in the United States. You know, if you look at all the Black Lives Matters, protests, these kinds of HS does not exist
Host 1:12:14
here. Right?
Kwayt 1:12:16
All the medical, like workers just taking supplies from the hospitals, although they're not going to work and just seeing patients at home assess. seeing things like that make is what my hopeful art comes from. And also seeing some of my friends saying like, not, you know, not because they're given up, because it's, it's been a month, it's been 30 days, and 5060 people have died and 1000s insured for having a civil protest. So, you know, in some part of me feels like, there's no point in peacefully, personally protesting these monsters, because they don't have besides being Buddhist, they don't have that empathy or metta in themselves. I truly believe that they're rotten to the core, and there's no human lift in them in the military, make sure that they systematically brainwash the Soldier Soldier says, think about the education system that I have mentioned to you, and think about how strong that education system would be to the people who are in the military. And and people who only live in that bubble, and never came out or went abroad to explore other ideas. You know, it's, it's scary things that they show about North Korea, and I, you know, situation in Burma, and how the military dictatorship has ruled is as scary as that. Yeah. Or like maybe more. And, yeah, so part of, you know, the healthy way and the productive way I've been trying to do and cope with is just to put it into my art, working on a children's story book, in the hopes that maybe one day if I ever raise a child to read it back to them about the revolution, I'm doing the illustrations, but the text part is done. But I don't have an ending. Because it's because of that fear that I was talking to you and that dwell on me that I live with every day, some days. You know, I want to write the ending in the spring was saved. In some days, I wonder, you know, right, that the evil prevailed, I don't know. You know, sometimes my husband says to should just write that. Like we won, just enough just to set the tone, but, you know, I, I have to, I feel like be honest with myself. And as much as I'm hopeful about this, there's a big part of fear in meaning that even if we want, there's still so many lives that were taken knows how many people who are insured, who are going to be disabled for the rest of their lives. And not only just physical trauma, but this is gonna carry a lot of emotional and mental trauma for the people for the rest of their lives. So yeah, it's it's just so hard to stay completely.
Host 1:15:45
Yeah, the mental duress that people are under now. There's just no way to characterize it. What what they're under in terms of the danger, the they're not safe during the days, they're not safe during the nights, they're not safe on the streets, they're not safe in their homes. The that complete lack of instability in the feeling of being on your own. And you're right. I, you mentioned how you haven't seen this protests in this country, I haven't seen or heard about this, and protests anywhere in my life, I can't believe the kind of things I hear and see, of, of normal residents banding together to use whatever resources and knowledge they have, which is often quite limited, given the background of the country to, to do what they can. And, you know, being so familiar with the country, there's just little details that stand out to me that that really tell a lot. So like, Well, one of those details, you mentioned, all the people that are playing a part in the protest to help out with this part or this part. You know, we interviewed a guy on our podcast, who has taken over the role of organizing garbage pickup. That's just what he does. He just he and his wife just go out, and they post pictures of themselves carrying, you know, piling, you know, 5050, huge bags of garbage. And so the protest sites are left cleaner than when they started this is this is not really the sexiest job to do when you're out in the protest. But it's what they do. They do their part. And there was, you know, there's another picture that stood out where there was, a few days ago, the police were bringing in criminals that they were, you know, injecting with morphine and giving weapon giving knives and swords and scissors, too. And they were going into the crowds and just randomly stabbing people. And they had showed, there was one one of these criminals who was being detained. And they showed him it was like some string or rope or something that was tied around his feet and his arms that was then connected to the gate on someone's house. And so I'm just looking at this thinking, like, these are normal residents that have to figure out how to stop and detain a violent criminal, without harming him because they're not trying to harm these people. They sometimes know that these people are victims as much as themselves. It's almost like Roman rulers that are pitting these, these unfortunate people against each other, and they don't really care what the outcome is. But these, they're, they're they're trying, despite all their anger, they're trying to detain them peacefully, but protect themselves. And they're just I mean, they have to figure out how to tie them what to tie them to, could you imagine in our communities, or any community in the world if it was just like, okay, just look around your house, find someone who knows how to tie a knot, or find someone who knows this skill and that skill. And this is a professionally trained military that you're up against, and you're building barricades, and it's insane. Yeah,
Kwayt 1:18:36
absolutely. You know, it's just, it's just ordinary people with, you know, ordinary jobs like not, it's not your right, it's just very limited resources they have, and yet, you know, some sometimes they'll see more of these criminals who go with that to, you know, create Trump term while and the neighborhood security groups catches him and still, like fitsum and give them food. It's just
Host 1:19:03
right. Right. That's,
Kwayt 1:19:05
yeah, that's also tells us so much about, you know, 30 or more people. And, yes, oh, wait, that kind of work. And I feel like I would do the same to even when I'm angry there. It's a really a tactic. I think that's being done by the military to just put the poor against or to create, to fight. You know, that's what they've been trying to do divide and conquer. That's why they're so against these, making sure that the discrimination to stays between all the ethnic groups because, you know, each ethnic groups have their own resources and power to be able to, I think, go against the military, not in terms of like Armed Forces, of course. I think yeah. So it's just yeah, so some heartwarming things to say. Just to see through this whole thing.
Host 1:20:03
It's heartwarming, but it's also it's also heartbreaking. You know, you see, sometimes I'm in touch with friends in real time, like, as they're, as they're talking about the military convoys, they're expecting, and they're building their barricades, and they're coordinating with each other. And, and it's and they're not, these are not people doing anything wrong. I mean, these are, these are not people doing any kind of political organizing, or they're just trying to live and they're just afraid of this, of these troops indiscriminately coming into their area and just trying to protect each other. It's like one of those old western movies where, you know, the bandits are coming from there three days away, and they're on their horseback and the small town has to band together and somehow find a way how to deal with these terrifying bandits who are having their, their way with the country. And, you know, these these normal residents that don't have a lot to begin with, and are pitted against a professionally trained military? It's
Kwayt 1:21:02
Yeah. And yeah, I mean, think about here, it's, you know, People have not been working for a month, most people in their fight like financially, also, you know, probably struggling, because we're just coming out of COVID a lot of places in businesses were shut down. And it's heartbreaking to see a lot of moms are now going to have to give birth in the middle of this. And I saw some woman sharing, like, oh, take a birth control, or have a plan B with you when you go out to protest. Because if the soldiers catches you, they are going to rape, so you don't have any unplanned pregnancies. Just the fact that woman has to talk about that, it just riles up so much anger in me for how evil and just inhumane these soldiers are.
Host 1:21:21
And yet they're still going out. And you know, despite all that, they're still going out because there is no alternative. And I think you don't understand that, unless you know, this trauma, I think, unless this trauma is talked about, and people who care about the situation, outside, listen to it, they listen to this trauma, and they start to understand that the depth and the pain of this, and that there is no going back. This is not a question of a more open or more closed society. This is the question of some decent way of life forward and absolute darkness, the likes of which people who are from free societies can't begin to understand.
Kwayt 1:22:58
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In any note, again, that's something I've been trying to talk to my friends and family here. Everyone has been really supportive. But, this is why our conversation right now is very important for people to hear. What they don't understand, truly is the trauma. Because sometimes, you know, people are saying, oh, like, you know, can you just stay home? What about COVID? You know, aren't there more like tactical ways? Or there's like, more smarter ways to approach this. And yeah, I mean, there are a lot of people taking that approach to being trying to be smart, trying to be resourceful, and trying to be very calculated. But you also have to understand is that for a lot of people, if they don't do it now, it's, it's never, there's never a time, like, every, almost everybody at least I know, like, even my mom says, like, yeah, like, I don't care if I die, if I have to go to prison. That's all better than just having to live under the dictactorship.
Host 1:24:18
When people when people are talking about different tactics, that it might be coming with good intentions, but that's coming from a privileged mind state. It's coming from a privileged situation where you think that there are other opportunities where you think that there is another way to go about it. Yeah. And as bad as it is to be worrying about, you know, rape and sniper fire and everything else as an ordinary resident, you and I, and that let me be open. This is a process I've gone through in the last couple of weeks, as much as I have known about Burmese history as much as I've listened to my Burmese friends, I haven't understood and Excuse me, I haven't understood the role that that depth of trauma has played in the decision making this going forward, that there really is no other option. And that's I think that's something we do all have to understand. And I do want to ask you, so you're, you know, you're making art. And that's, you've been an artist. So it's something natural for you and how you're expressing yourself and also contributing to the movement because your, your art is being widely shared and seen, and probably inspiring the many people. Can you say a little something about what you've seen about what is going on with art in Myanmar, and how it's being shared how it's being made? And what is its role at this time?
Kwayt 1:25:31
Yeah, I mean, cuz the, with, even within the protests, there are many creative ways that people are coming up, you know, with to speak against this injustice. And I have a lot of, I've seen a lot of like, my friends, were doing very creative projects, like projections at night. When you spray paint, the next day, they come over painted and paint over a constant battle, but like, projections, things like projections, so they can't come and take take it down. A lot of like, musicians, artists, are speaking up about it. And the way kind of social media plays into sharing that art widely has been a very effective to, I think, because back in 1980, a lot of artists were doing what I was doing, but they didn't have Instagram. Especially like, artists and poets, and all the writers who are serving abroad, like back then it was so, so hard for us to feel like we can contribute something to the movement. Yeah, because there's I did, there's a Facebook group called art for freedom, and a lot of mostly graphic artists has been making, both for assorted graphic artists who are both in the country or abroad, like I am, are making a lot of kind of protest signs and posters and stickers, and, you know, yeah, so in some way, it's, it's been very inspiring, and also kind of, to see a different to see like anger and frustration, and kind of the fight mentality being expressed in a different form. Because like you were saying, you know, people, some people are out on the streets, some people are picking up garbage, some people are cooking 4000 people. And, you know, some people are making art. And, yeah, and I think the role it plays is just like I was saying, it's just a shared anger shares that this shared hopefulness that can inspire people in many ways, because, you know, people express things differently. But when it there's something visual, for example, that painting I've made of the military generally, it's, I dream of it. Like because I can you
Host 1:28:14
describe it for people who haven't seen
Kwayt 1:28:16
Yeah, so it's, it's a painting of a specially Ma'am, like the general you know, who is behind all of this leader of all of this, him dressed in like his full uniform with all the medallions that he's given himself, all this stars on his shoulder, that indicates the level of his position in the military. And it's just him being pulled apart and punched by all different kinds of hands, each representing a group of people or kind of, he is representing a symbol of people that partakes that are partaking in the movement. So for example, monks, so had a picture of just praying beats on one of the hands that presents the monks, you know, who typically are told to just stay away from typical human anger and human things. skiba is the word for it most are not to meddle with, like an ordinary people's life, but they don't care about meditation, because they're fighting the fight. And this has happened in 2017. You know, like the monks who were supposed to state peacefully came out to protests and also representing spring with those gungor flowers on the hand, also representing like pots and pans that people have been banking also kind of represents the group of moms and usually like the role of women in a wolf band, kind of staying inside and cooking for them. ceremonies are not all out fighting with the rest of the people also think there was like one hand of just from a student in uniform that's stained with blood as this happening back in 1988, the student led revolution or a lot of students were killed. And history is turned to almost repeating itself. Yeah. So and then also portrayed like the general as having some sort of like a monstrous evil. Look at all these hands kind of just trying to rip apart because that's what I want to do. Like, that's, that's what I dream of doing is just claw his way out. I'm sorry. To hear but no, that's, that's what
Host 1:30:51
gives you a space to express that.
Kwayt 1:30:53
Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, that's what I truly feel. And that's what a lot of people were feeling. I also wrote a poem that's associated to that painting. Unfortunately, I can't really translate it to English, because the context is very different. But, you know, it's just pray for me to hear people messaging me and saying, you know, just to see exactly how I'm feeling I really like your poem. And yeah, that's, that's just one way that, you know, I've been not only just personally just to deal with my anger, but also to, I think, in a hope that it can sort of alleviate people, angers and emotion that they're feeling, um, just by looking at art.
Host 1:31:45
Yeah, art can be very powerful. And, and I'm also curious, where you see Buddhism fitting in to this current protest movement, and especially your generation, because from my side, I see on one hand, there are Buddhist concepts being part and parcel of the protest movement, everyday reaction, if you don't know a lot about Buddhism, you might miss them. But all the time, I'm seeing actions that are showing Donna generosity metta, loving kindness, karma, understanding the law of cause and effect and Sheila, de la, as you say, in Burmese, the following the precepts, non violence, of course, and on and on, and in small ways, and big I see, like, Buddhist doctrine, meditative wisdom, born from a lifetime of cultivation and cleaning one's mind towards these qualities being played out. And it's really beautiful and inspiring myself coming from a background of this practice and knowing people engaged. On the other hand, this is a new generation. And this is a generation that has, is very connected online that has had several years almost a decade of openness and engagement with the world and with ideas and with people with travel in and out of the country, and different employment opportunities, and etc. And so the way this generation is holding Buddhism, even even as these concepts are at play in the protests, but the way they're holding certain traditional aspects of Buddhism might be different somewhat, especially in terms of the Unity they're trying to create, among people that they've been told to have enmity for. So I'm curious for you, how are you seeing Buddhism play out in this current moment?
Kwayt 1:33:33
Yeah. It's interesting, because religion is almost an identity that a lot of Burmese people, you know, in my generation or generation before mine holes, but because, you know, like, you've mentioned, thirst, the internet, which sort of came late to the country? Oh,
Host 1:33:55
yeah. Very late.
Kwayt 1:33:57
You know, I think I want I first got to use internet when I was like, 616, and an internet cafe. So you know, for me, that was pretty. But all this generation who grew up with technology, that kind of allowed them more access to just the rest of the world. And it knowing that being a strict Buddhist, like how we were raised to is just not the only way. So religion is not something like the fear of, you know, the, like, you were saying, There's Donna, there's the lot but they are willing to break it when it comes to injustice, because I have a lot of, you know, people and young people seem just, I'll kill if I have to. They're not afraid of going to hell. And I don't know if Buddha existed now or if karma will efforts and help I don't think you'll be sent to jail for killing a ruthless soldier. And so that's one of mentality. And, you know, again, I think a lot of people are coming into this balanced place with, you know, I've mentioned before, when I'm angry at the justice, I'm going to allow myself to be angry and speak up about it and take action. But when I have to treat someone with kindness, I'm also gonna treat them with kindness. So you know, these young people are giving up their salaries, giving up their apartments, to help other people, you know, even like I was saying, the criminals that neighborhood people have caught, they're still treating them kindly, right. But when it comes to protecting your friends and your family, the A lot of people are just willing to fight or break the rule of don't steal someone else's property. And on the 50 abandoned from the water, yeah, I'll steal it to hurt that milestone to protect my people. I will, you know, kill their lives to protect my people. So yeah, it's very interesting. And in a way that, you know, like I was saying a lot of Burmese people who usually are always honored about something of a cobra cultural response, almost, you know, sort of shifting your tastes like they're okay to receive help when they need it. And also, you know, I mean, the willingness to give first are already there. It's just, I think, selflessness, in general is such a virtue that we've been taught that, you know, no worry that it wasn't gonna be there. It's very prominent, even more so now. And but also, you know, like I was saying, it's just, the law is sort of being seen in a different way, by a lot of not not just the younger generation to even very devout Buddhists, like, my mom, you know, would never dare to harm her soul. are saying like, yeah, look, baby blood,
Host 1:37:19
really. But it's been non violent so far.
Kwayt 1:37:22
Yeah, yeah, definitely not nonviolent so far. But I think the breaking point is, of course, that there is a breaking point, because it's been a month. And the anger and frustration people are holding, not only started from, like February 1, it's it's, you know, the years of growing up in that term, it's really only been five years. But we weren't under the military dictatorship on the surface. Right. level two, you know, it's not it's not democracy, air quotes, fully that we've been given to you. So? Yeah, I think it's Victory or death, you know, for a lot of people. And yeah, there's still being pervious by being kind. But when it comes to it, I think a lot of people are willing to take a weapon and fight back. See,
Host 1:38:20
yeah, well, we can only see how that goes. It's definitely these are heavy things to hold. You know, one of the things that I'm thinking that I've been thinking for last week, and I'd really, really be curious about your take on it, because we're talking about like suppression of difficult emotions, or kind of using Buddhist concepts in such a way where you if they're, if there's very difficult feelings that you don't really want to acknowledge or, or even feel, being able to suppress them in some way. So you don't have just a normal Burmese society just so kind of goes into and holiday as well and into understanding I would, I would argue, misunderstanding the Buddhist teachings, so that you, you're not dealing with something that's actually present, you're not working your way through through something that is in you and trying to understand it, and suppressing it in some way. But it seems like right now, the lid has come off. And it seems that I'm curious what you think about that in terms of this age old, traditional Burmese Buddhist experience of both on our body as well as this way of incorporating the Buddhist teachings into just not dealing with some of this pain and trauma and suffering. And it seems like there really is this extraordinary free expression of simple acknowledgement of pain, just and on a personal level with friends I know and on a mass level in terms of what I'm seeing online, just an ability to express how I've never seen expressed before. The basic truth and actually I didn't realize this until I said it. The basic truth the Four Noble Truths Of course, you know, the essential truth of Buddha, that there is suffering that is the first noble truth. And I'm actually hearing Pete Buddhist friends and people online, express different versions of the form, I am suffering, just a basic acknowledgement. And so it feels like there, there's some kind of top coming off of being able to express things that haven't been before. But I also understand I'm an outsider, and there's probably dynamics, I don't understand you're someone who's worked through this. So intrinsically going from out of one culture into another? What are you seeing here?
Kwayt 1:40:32
Yeah, I think I think that's a very, almost a very accurate assessment of it. It's true, because, like, I was saying, if my grandma is using customers, if she is willing to, you know, with whatever she can, I feel like if someone were to come take her, one of her children away, she would grab her. I don't know, what puts that thing call thing. Like, I don't know, her water.
Host 1:41:05
Right, some kitchen
Kwayt 1:41:06
kitchen tool to, like, fight against these people, you know? And yeah, and, again, you know, it's not, I think people are kind of more not in tune with their emotions, there's a lot to process. And it's different kind of holding that anger here, versus there. My fear is that I may lose someone, potentially, but their fear is that I could die right now. So you know, there's a difference in that too, of course, but I think I think the way people are dealing with it, I think any way to deal with it is right, and justify. So whether you're so angry out there every day, or whether you're choosing to practice, you know, like, the traditional teachings of Buddha and trying to find the most peaceful way to do this thing. I think any reaction any action is justifiable, and that there is no kind of one true truth or one way to act, and react to this situation. But I would say it's true that the lid has really come off. And then also, you know, weirdly, the, like how social media has been actually helping people express that, in a way that I have not seen before, in past revolutions in right,
Host 1:42:47
you know, hasn't been connected,
Kwayt 1:42:48
right? Because now, I think the reason why people feeling more connected and whatnot, is because you know, when you see a picture of this young girl who's a watermelon vendor, giving her you know, food away is just inspiring to so many other people before, that kind of emotion, that kind of virtue is not really visible is shared amongst millions of people, maybe like through a newspaper, right now doesn't exist. Only government. Media is present in terms of print. And on TV channels, most people are relying on internet and social media to get their news and whatnot. So I think that kind of outlet has sort of created a better way to not only express your emotions, your anger, but also to feel connected with others who are feeling the same way that you are.
1:43:55
Yeah,
Host 1:43:57
right. And I want to go back to something you'd said before, where you were talking about any expression is okay, right now, whether it's an expression of, of traditional Buddhist concepts, or whether it's something else and actually want to push back against that a little bit, because what I've been seeing is that, in my experience, the people that are engaging with this in a very traditional Buddhist way, are also expressing their emotions, very honestly. And vulnerably. Yeah, and so it's, it's, it's not I don't, I haven't seen any dichotomy with that. And that's what's been so extraordinary is that people I've spoken to that have a deep commitment of non violence that are practicing meditation, even through this and sending and striving to send metta not only to the protesters but also to everyone in the military as well. Acknowledging the difficulty of doing so, but are trying, even as they engage with this. There's also a certain honesty and raw vulnerability and how they're actually feeling. Even when that feeling is hopeless when that feeling is wanting to say Scream or cry or, or there's no resolution in sight, just the mere holding of that first noble truth of suffering and personalizing that first noble truth of suffering in the same eye, I have this pain and things are not okay. And whatever they're doing while they hold that view, that's something that in a society where there is encouragement towards harmony and things being okay and forbearance, that that forbearance seems like it's gone out, even even as they're holding Buddhist concepts that forbearance has gone out the way
1:45:36
Yeah.
Host 1:45:38
That's incredible. And that's incredible.
Kwayt 1:45:41
Yeah, I wasn't meaning to say like, Oh, you know, people, I'm trying to say that people are not pushing back against their own angers and feelings. It's, I think, what I was meaning to stay is just more trying to kind of encourage that, you know, no matter what, what's your background is where you're from? And, yeah, like, just just saying that whatever you feel is it's okay to feel that way. You know, sometimes, maybe some people may be like, I don't know, some, like a turmoil within themselves that like, Oh, I shouldn't be feeling that way and whatnot, just not bringing. Yeah, yeah, sorry.
Host 1:46:28
No, you're fine. You're fine. You're fine. So you know, another interesting thing here is that when you talk about this agency, there's an agency to feel and there's an agency to express how one feels, even if that's not going to make the situation better and more harmonious that there's there's an acceptance and openness to being able to just say how you feel at this moment. And I'm also curious, like, where that agency is going in terms of Buddhism, where it's going in terms of monasticism because it seems like and again, I want to preface all this by saying I'm an outsider, I'm not fluent in the language. So it's just kind of like a, some some rough thoughts or a theory and and i'm sharing it more to get your take on this brainstorm and starting to develop a meme. And it goes something like this, that in the past this the way this kind of traditional harmony and respect and everything was playing out was that monks who were supposed to be revered and monastics and monasteries and everything else, there was just a natural set of natural kind of reverence that was supposed to go with that maybe unthinking, maybe maybe more of a religious quality in looking at Well, if he's, if he's at this level, there must be some reason for it. And let me defer. And let me say that difference is an absolutely beautiful quality difference is not a quality I you find very often at all in the West, and it's something that is sorely lacking. And I can go on and on about this, I won't but let me just say that the the benefits that I've learned from the qualities of difference in Myanmar is really, really a beautiful, wonderful thing. However, it can also be placed in kind of an unthinking role where you just defer because that's what everyone is supposed to do. And in this current moment, when you're looking at agency, it's not just the agency of speaking how you feel at a given time, even when it it's nothing good to share, but it's it's truthful. I'm also curious how that agency is playing out in terms of the lay monastic relationship. It's more like, what kind of monkhood do you want? What kinds of monkhood is the one that's serving us. And that's another form of agency. That's another form of looking at what monastics and monks really have your interests at heart and are really behind you spiritually and ethically in their role as a religious clergy, and which ones one has been showing reverence for, but in this tense time, is, are not exactly the ones that are, are with those goals of the people. And this is such a curious thing. Because the monkhood is set apart. It's not and this is something I think Westerners don't understand. By intention, it's not supposed to be worldly. This is how the Buddha set it up. You're not supposed to be engaged with politics, you're not supposed to be engaged with all the affairs of the world. And this is a really, really beautiful thing, and it needs to stay this way. However, there is a role there is a kind of moral authority or spiritual protection that monks do have. And so and so I'm just curious your thoughts on where the monkhood and the Sangha and the lay monastic relations are shaping in this time and is this also something that's in a moment of, of reformulation?
1:49:46
Yeah, I mean,
Kwayt 1:49:50
not only just now you know, just even back in 2007 when 1000s and 1000s of monks out on the street pro Testing against this government and being beaten to death and being killed, I'm sure like, since then it has started shifting in terms of kind of the monks involvement in, like normal people things, you know, like politics and all social issues. And just traditionally to in an interesting way, because a lot of these famous monks and whatnot, to some degree hold some kind of power. Although that's not not what Buddhist monks are supposed to do. But in some ways, they're because things they say, are taken as, like a whole belief system by a lot of people suck. So the power the whole, you know, at least used to be at least four people in older generations, things that come up, come out of their mouth, and change the mentality of the whole movement.
Host 1:51:06
for things that they don't say,
Kwayt 1:51:07
yeah, or things yet, like fact that if maybe third, staying silent about injustice, and whatnot, but the majority of monks, you know, just 2007 isn't exact example two has already started shifting their way of being in terms of, you know, not be not not involved in politics, not involved in social issues, don't engage with violence. Now, like months would even hide the protesters from being hunted down, or they would help give out the resources to build the spirit, Kate, and help with whatever they have. And I don't think the traditional scripture of what, not only just scripture, just written or unwritten rules about what most should be has changed, I think, since 2007, you know, because, yeah, we can claim it because they have some sort of spiritual protection, but they didn't back into God's Heaven, you know. But I mean, that again, that's one of the traumatic things for me too, because if you see just the piece of robe, but for me, splitters were told to just bow down towards a duck, we're not even supposed to step on their shadow, if, you know, sun's coming this way. And their shadows casting, we're supposed to avoid, avoid it or to stop walking. So if when you grow up in a country like that, and you see these monks being beaten to death, for speaking up the truth, you're not going to feel like you're ever protected from anything. So I think if the same goes to all the monks who Yeah, you think they can keep practicing meditation and trying to find inner peace and preach peace but uh, sermons if they're under a military, a military dictatorship, because they're going to be censored as well. You know, cuz like, even seeing some, I feel like some Buddhists troopers first US and whatnot could go against what the military is saying, or what the military is wanting to do to the people. Because in many ways religion can inspire people to speak up and take action on things that are not just, and that's what they're fearful of. And that's what I believe that they've been trying to control people with a form of, you know, with religion with quote, unquote, Buddhism, that I think they have crafted themselves not does not reflect the truth about what is true Buddhism or what these Buddhist monks have been practicing. So yeah, for sure, I think that kind of relationship between people and monks could also change coming up, you know, like, I mean, even a lot of people might show me, of course, for prospective knocks, but it's not, like falling on my knees and just being so scared of talking back to a monk. I feel like a lot of people my age would ask a lot, a logical question to a mark can, you know, people still respectful, you know, be able to go back and forth and express their ideas. So yeah, that dynamic can definitely change. I just generally how people perceive,
Host 1:54:49
right, so there could be some kind of reformulation of that relationship, still keeping it in that sacred space. And it's really interesting because when you mentioned the thing about not stepping on a monk shadow There's nothing in the scriptures about that. There's nothing in the Buddha's rules about that. That's entirely a Burmese Buddhist cultural belief. And actually a funny story, I was once with a with a French monk who encountered that belief, actually, for the first time, using robes for many, many years. And he was trying to convince these villagers that this is absolutely not true. They wouldn't buy into it just because they they had been taught this all their life. So I guess we were walking in like late afternoon, sunshine, when your shadow gets longer. And there were kids on kind of the other side of the field, he kept walking and contorting his body in such ways that his shadow would bounce onto where the kids were walking, kind of to kind of tease them. So the kids were, like, really freaked out, jump and run away. And then he would stretch his arm out so that, you know, his his arm shadow, like hit that just and they understood what it was. But it was it was just the kind of way to get at, you know, like, I am a Buddhist monk and I have studied everything. And let me tell you absolutely, positively, there's nothing in the scriptures that say this. But because they were raised that way, they couldn't really understand it. And so there's, you know, there is a way to keep the sacredness of what it means to have a monastic clergy, which believe me is is coming from this country, it is something so profound to have these people living to these vows of renunciation, this reciprocal relationship that the Buddha set up 2500 years ago of the people giving them substance, giving them sustenance every day, taking care of their needs of clothing, and food and medicine, not having to worry about that. And in return, these people being able to live a noble spiritual and ethical life, where they are able to use the wisdom they gain from this pure living, to inform and to help and to advise the lay practitioners and the laypeople. And there's something really, really special about this. But you know, at the, at the same time there, there have been other beliefs that have crept into that, that, that have changed that. And so you can, there's a way to go back to the core of how those teachings came across. And to integrate that into what your community and culture is. That might look different than how it is now. But I'm, you know, I'm really, I guess I want to say cautiously hopeful that there is a roadmap for that for being able to to not have materialistic Western influence, start to change some of those real, beautiful things about Burmese Buddhist culture, while at the same time not having to be stuck in the past of the way things always were in the way things you know, there are some foreigners that do appreciate the foreign practitioners, I should say, the do appreciate the traditional forms of Burmese Buddhist practice without realizing that those forms were traditional because they were held in place and paralyzed by a dictatorship that didn't allow any change. And so how can the lid come off? Where and even the the shape of the practice and culture start to change? But the core of those beautiful beliefs and spiritual practices can still find very much a home in the new generation.
Kwayt 1:58:12
Absolutely.
Host 1:58:15
So So yeah, I've taken so much of your time. And thank you so much for, for chatting. I mean, this has been so valuable. And I think that, you know, for people listening, I think it's been very educational as well. And so I'm wondering if there's anything you want to leave listeners with, especially people who are not from me and Mara, and trying to understand it better people that are wanting to help right now, people that are wanting to understand right now, what message would you have for them to better inform them about? What is going on something that's being missed? And what they could do?
Kwayt 1:58:56
Yeah, well, I mean, one thing you could do is just listen, and listen. And listen. I think it's the first step to take, you know, whether you're really unfamiliar with the country, or whether you've been to the country a couple of times you've visited and had your great summer vacation there. Or you have deep connections like you do, you know, with people from Burma, yeah, like, the first step is to just listen and also kind of as much as you can try to remove the knowledge, existing knowledge that you may have about the country or existing assumptions that you may have about the country. I mean, internet, communication, communications, not very great back home because it's being kept but if you can talk to a Burmese person. Of course, that's not the easiest thing. Do but you know, there are a lot a lot of news not just like, you know, the foreign like New York Times and BBC and whatnot. Sometimes there are a lot of helpful, resourceful, and I can't believe I'm saying this. Like, right now Facebook is for most reliable form of news, because I'm seeing life updates from people from the ground. And as you know, so there are a lot of social media accounts like on Instagram, listen up. Newmar is a account that really explains the current situation. And, you know, it's written by people from Myanmar. So their perspective is more or less more accurate than, you know, some foreign journalist writing about the situation. So try to read as many new forces as you can, is, what would be my suggestion, you know, there are a lot of people so you can actually talk to your local government representative, you know, senators and whatnot, sending them letters about support, but you, you know, you want to give or trying to prompt them to take action towards that mean, I know, like the US has already kind of, you know, said that they're gonna post some sanctions or some actions that's going to be taken towards this. Yeah, so you can, something else that you can do, there's a lot of fun rate razors that are going on, I think there is a website called mutual aid Myanmar, where you can see all the areas that need some sort of financial support for people who are in civil disobedience, movement, as well as people who are out protesting you can think of, there's a lot of different causes contexts that up to like, fundraise for various needs. So if you go to mutual aid newmar.com, I think you can see what we can donate to see where your funds are going. But it's currently the banking situation is a key, because even if we make donations from here, it's hard for people to withdraw money immediately stop. So don't just donate to a GoFundMe that, like, you know, try to talk to the organizers about the situation for you. Yeah, and then also educate your friends and family about it, you know, trying to start a conversation about it whenever you can with someone else just to raise awareness. Because, you know, I think revolutions like this, it's not not only just no more, but I think can inspire a lot of change in the world. Just to see and hear kind of not only the news, but very personal stories about how these people are standing up for themselves. And I feel like can make lots of positive change in different movements that are going around the world as well, as you know, here in the US. Trying to stay up to date with what's going on here as much as three, my priority is, of course, now just about hope, but doesn't mean that a lot of the injustice and inequality we have here in the United States has poof and gone away, sort of went away. So I hope people can take Burma as an example and spread awareness about this and hopefully can inspire the way you're living your life as a person and trying to ponder upon what you can do as a person to foster positive changes.
Host 2:04:16
And this is a moment where this small crack of freedom is still open. You know, this is a moment where momentum really matters. You know, momentum is what creates things momentum is what has the UN Ambassador defect on live TV. Momentum is what has ASEAN start the Asian countries that are in Southeast Asia, that network and it's what momentum is what Korea what has ASEAN start to look at a stricter statement and possible actions as they did just a couple of days ago, at least when we're recording this momentum is what has given the motivation for among customers. Standing to write an open letter that we published on our blog, expressing his displeasure with what's happening in the need to protect human life. So all of these things, the conversation that we're having between the two of us, the listeners that are taking the time to be informed, and then sharing this or talking about the concepts or looking elsewhere, all of these things that we are doing outside and that are happening inside, they're all these small ways that are going into the momentum of the movement, while that small crack of freedom is still there. And I have really come to be a big believer in the last week, that this momentum actually does things that actually does create space for more people to step in it. And for organizations and people to take greater risks. And every day is just so critical in terms of how we're able to keep that momentum alive. And there is a role for all of us to play, whether that's volunteering, whether that's donation, which are the which are the obvious things, or whether it's just talking to people, whether it's just finding, going online to some platform and making a Burmese friend, and just asking them about their day and letting them know that you support them, let them know that, that you're with them and giving them just a little more energy for the hard work of protesting. It could be something as small as that all of those things do go towards creating this momentum into this current moment and trying to, you know, keep the freedom that these people are are, are trying to themselves to not let go of and that we can be involved in some way.
Kwayt 2:06:32
Absolutely.
Host 2:06:34
So thank you so much for taking this time with us. I really appreciate it.
Kwayt 2:06:38
Yeah, thank you so much for having me, not kind of healthy for me to just let out. My thoughts to not not to be like, Oh, my life is so hard. But it is true that you know, a lot of my friends and family including the going through through this, this this. Yeah, I'm glad that I have a place to be vulnerable, about my trauma, and hopefully that can have impact on some of our listeners out there and that they can contribute to this positive change that I hope is coming in the horizon.
Host 2:07:31
I hope you found today's show as rewarding to listen to as we did to produce it. These are not easy times. I certainly know this on a very personal level, as some of you might also have picked up on from what I've shared on this and other episodes. These days, I'm now absorbed and doing all I can at every moment of the day at night. To push through whatever is possible from this humble platform as often might also be true for some of you at this time. This often involves decreased sleep hours and quick meals, all during heightened states of emotion. So if you found this or any other episodes, we've done recently a value and feel this mission is a valuable one to continue. please consider supporting our effort by making a donation. As we have dramatically ramped up all of our efforts this month. We are only able to keep production at this level through the generous donations of listeners like you. 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