Transcript: Episode 39: Navigating Rough Waters
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Daniel Mayer, which appeared on March 10, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
During the current crisis unfolding in Myanmar, events are happening so fast that it can feel challenging to keep up with them. Although we're working to increase our podcast production far beyond what we've ever done before, to meet the needs of this ever changing crisis, we feel that the podcasts alone still do not address the full range of everything going on. So we encourage you to also check out the blogs on our website, Insight myanmar.org. Also, feel free to check out our other social media sites. Just look for Insight Myanmar, or Burma Dhamma on your preferred platform, and to engage in this topic more deeply, and discuss with other practitioners, head over to the Facebook group meditation in Burma slash Myanmar. With that, let's head to our show. Hey,
01:31
what's up.
Host 01:46
I'm here talking to Daniel Mayer. It's been about a year since our last conversation and things have really changed since then it was a year ago when he came over to my place in Yangon. And we sat around face to face, having a nice conversation and chat having a good Burmese meal after as that conversation ended. And we referenced that was where we were off to. And now we're living in a very different world. I'm on one side of it, and us, Daniels in South America. And we're really happy to have him back to talk about some of the things that have happened this past year from a Dharma perspective. So Daniel, thank you so much, again, for joining us at Insight Myanmar podcast.
Daniel Mayer 02:32
Thank you, joy, it was my pleasure to hear you again after almost a year. And yes, as you have very well said, we are living in another world. And what's so exciting is that we haven't really given in to the Dharma experiences that are so threatening, and we are really facing these challenges with a strength that is most embarrassing our life. I'm in contact with many, many people in many, many countries. And I really see how again and again, being able to develop this trust this saga, that yes, one thing is the outside, but how do I feel towards how think whatever is happening to me? And on one way, in one sense, yes, we can say, gosh, how many people are really going through very difficult times. But that really doesn't help. What really helped is how can I keep my balance? How can I continue in this evolution in this development, because similar things have happened all the time. In my case, it's easier, because I come from a very a country in Argentina, which went through a dictatorial process. The first one was paid on. I was very young, I was born 1940. And he was ousted in 55. But I knew that I would never want to live anywhere where there are dictatorships. And when so many years later, he returned from Spain. The first thing I decided was to leave. So yes, in a certain way, one has certain choices. Others don't.
Host 04:48
Yeah, that's right. And you know, I remember in I remember in our interview when we were speaking about your biography, a year ago, we got to a point where you said that That you loved freedom more than anything else in life more than money more than position more than status. And so you left your country because you couldn't, you couldn't accept living without this freedom. And, you know, to be honest, from my position, when I heard you say that I thought, Oh, this is really quite a nice romantic kind of courageous thing to say. And it's nice for me to hear and it was inspiring. But I think where I'm sitting now, my view on the power of those words, has changed dramatically. Even though I'm not Burmese. And I'm not in Myanmar at the time. I'm so connected to the contrary, and I have so many friends that are, and we're witnessing now, this tremendous cry of millions of people, as the crack of freedom, the crack of light is still just barely remaining, that they want to keep it they're announcing to the world in every way they can, that they want to keep this freedom and basic, right? I've never lived through or experience something like this. And I reflect back on your experience many years ago, which now makes a much deeper personal impact on my understanding of what you're going through. So I'm wondering, because you've had experience from your own country of dealing with some political turmoil and how it's not just in the news, but it's common affected you and your yourself and your family and your friends and your business and your lives. In really direct profound ways. This is what we're now seeing in Myanmar. And I wonder if you could speak a little bit to that experience of having your entire world entire sense of safety, entire sense of right and wrong, entire sense of basic rights disrupted and what it's like to suddenly have that shaken up and where you how you move on from there.
Daniel Mayer 06:59
Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I agree with you. And I also must say that it was not only courage from my part, but it was also the respect to life, which, unfortunately, in and somehow, maybe my just disengagement to Argentina is such, the things that some power flow, ignorant, in my opinion, people with the possibility to deny and to read, to ignore others, and just allow their instinct to move ahead, is really bewildering? And is really a question that how can we as human beings, except when I'm in a bus, I look at another person? And I question myself, is he human or in Union, and I've been to Rwanda, where I've been able to conduct and organize free courses in the last seven years, or five years or so. And the stories that I've heard from others who lived together, but because they were of different ethnic groups, things happened when I think in terms of Ethiopia, and how they know where you're from, by your name. And then they can either mistreat you or admire you and embrace you. And it's the same people who look like you. When I was, I think, around 19, I left I went on a family on a trip to Germany, and my, from my relatives, because my parents were German. And some of these kids and not small kids, they must have been at least 12 or so they look at me. And our my relative, their mother or grandmother was my father's sister. So and they are you look just like us as if they thought that because you come from Argentina, you must be a monkey or have a monkey face or something like that. So yes, we have to understand that we live with humans, but not necessarily whose outlook to life is like ours, and that's why they're able to do things and justify certain things that we are incomprehensible. So pardon is I think one of the biggest qualities that we as human beings can have as meditators can have but pardoned with wisdom with Panja Origin with understanding that they are ignorant. I will tell you a little story that happened to me in real Brazil. I must also be in my 20s, early 20s. And in those days, I like to go to the bar when I was at hotels, and it must have been one of these bigger hotels, and I was at the bar, and this man was never a big drinker, but he was drinking. And he wasn't, maybe overdid it. And he started talking. And he said to me, You know, I was, like an admiral of very big in the US Navy. And we landed, I think it was in Yokohama. It was second World War. And I said, the first thing I wanted to do is to kill the first jack. And I went there, and I saw a man next to the beach, and I said, you defend yourself. And he hit him hit him. And now, maybe 20 years later, 25 years later, he was drinking, and he was totally out of his wits. So in some ways, not that I was thinking, Oh, you see, there's always a karmic response to ignorance. And some are rather, you can grow or you can fall is not I just sharing this story, because I do believe that there is a certain reason why certain people have an opportunity to rise, raise themselves rise, or fall, and how it falls back on you. And I think we who have decided to choose a spiritual practice, and we who have decided to live within them, no matter how difficult it may be, there is a reason why we are giving an example or we are holding, to a respect, giving choice to people to come out of their ignorance, their cruelty, their best, best Yeah, bestiality. And not that one thing is better than the other. I mean, in Spain, if you know, when the Inquisition they would boil people to death. And the guilty was still there until instill in my generation I will live I had my apartment in Paris. And around the corner, there was a small like, on the stone, in inscription here late the last visual team, and it was near Tesla shares the cemetery in Paris. So and this was a guillotine and everybody's shouting, and it totally I adore is in Spain, they still now they use a bull instead of using like the Romans 2000 years ago, human school. But the this is happening, we have to somehow rather accepted and remain protecting ourselves and those we think can receive our protection.
Host 13:12
Right. And I want to get into that a little bit as a from a practitioners point of view. And how a meditator a spiritual practitioner at this moment, should live in this time. And there's these two extremes that I'm seeing. And I want to talk I want to describe the extremes briefly now. So we understand the dynamics we're referring to and then take a moment to look at both separately. And I this is something that I'm especially eager and curious to talk to you about. Because you've been not just a Dharma practitioner, you've been a Dharma teacher for many years, you've worked in very, in places that have had extreme background of trauma across South America and Africa. And so you have worked with students who are trying on a spiritual path who have faced these traumas themselves on different sides of it. So these two extremes that I'm referring to one side of the extreme, is as a Dharma practitioner, being so overwhelmed and drowning in the emotions that there's little room for the practice, there's just this sorrow and anger and hopelessness and despair. And it's hard to find a place for the practice to fit in there. The other extreme is what's tended to be called spiritual bypassing these days. And it's an extreme of, well, this doesn't really involve me, and it's all their own karma. And I'll just sit and send metta and no matter how things turn out, the courses will happen eventually. And so I'll just I'll just kind of not really think about it and then let the world sorted out. And so there's these two extremes that I see practitioners falling into and then a middle path that we're aiming for. I want To talk about the first of those extremes, first, to talk about the meteor independently, and to get your thoughts as a teacher and as someone who's worked in these difficult places, for people that are finding themselves in one of these two camps, in the first camp, I would definitely claim that I am in that camp. I am and it's going to be hard for me to continue talking because it's hard. It's it's difficult, um, without breaking down, I should say, because it's difficult, there's certain things that are difficult for me to even get through the end of a sentence without, without the emotional impact coming up. So you know, pardon me in advance for that. But I am a practitioner who is overwhelmed with sorrow and anger and despair, and I'm going through a rollercoaster with this. I am not living through it, but I am getting messages from friends who have no longer have safety for the first time in their lives. I these are friends, and these are also Dharma practitioners, I received an email from a friend whose family is the trustee at the lady say at a monastery. So for four years, for generations, perhaps his family has overseen and cared for the legacy of Lady say at other sites there has welcomed the foreign tourists who have come I've had a deep friendship with them. Extremely giving and generous people and they described a few days ago, six thugs who were injected with morphine and sent into their small neighborhood, very small village to burn their house down. And they had to be up all night trying to protect themselves and their home, without incurring bad karma by harming the people trying to do it. And, and they, they were able to but of course, it was very harrowing, and to get these emails and messages from friends, describing how scared they are, and and asking for help, and doing as much as I can, which is, which is very little. But for the sorrow and the despair that I'm feeling in my position or for the fear and the the lack of safety and terror, that the Dharma practitioners are filling their. This is the one extreme of being kind of overwhelmed by by these, these these events. And I know my history I I've said before, in recent interviews, my family comes from a Jewish background, our European side of the family was wiped out during the Holocaust. So I know these things happen. I'm not naive, but living through them is a different kind of pain and trauma. And for those of us practitioners that are either over here feeling that trauma or actually facing the terror of their lives being at risk daily over there, how do we bring the practice back? How do we? How do we re engage with the value of that practice, when we're going through these emotional roller coasters every day?
Daniel Mayer 18:35
Well, what you say is absolutely true. And I think in some cases, it can take a whole lifetime. But don't think that you are an exception. And don't think that what is happening now in a certain part of the world is any different to what's happening and happened in other parts of the world. And I can tell you stories, but that will not help. What does help is the fact that because of our nature, because everything changes, the purse, the commitment that we have also changed the attachments that we have also changed. parents who have children in order to all of a sudden their children become so much the opposite of what the parents are expected. It's such an enormous not only challenge, it is stabbing in your heart, and they have to overcome it and they do overcome it. I know how shocked I was when the mother of the there was robbing I think what's his name, he was like a prime minister in Israel, and they caught the man who shot him. The mother officially said, is no longer my son. And I was shocked. Not that I am for or against shooting the prime minister or shooting anybody? Not at all. But how can a mother disengaged herself from being from engagement in front of her son, it's impossible. It doesn't exist. And unfortunately, these things keep repeating themselves. So in some ways, I trust that your despair, which is more than human, and is shows shows how identify you are with us with us all. How you are a part. And that's why we embraced you. How that how is that overwhelming you, but it has to be lived through. And I'm sure that in some ways or another, you will come out with it. Some like we all came out of it, I can tell you 1000s of stories that I've heard, like in the Spanish war, that my very dearest friends, she was an anarchist, and she was in jail, and she didn't have enough food to breastfeed her newborn baby. And her newborn baby died in her arms of starvation. And how can you overcome those terrible things, but they you do overcome them, you have to, it's your responsibility as a human being. And I once conducted a course, a 10 day Vipassana course in Germany. And there was a very frail lady. And she came to me in interview time, and she said to me, I am Burmese. And I was very mistreated. And this must have been in the 90s. It wasn't the 90s, before the 20th century. And she came to me. And she said, I'm Burmese. And I was very mistreated. And my only concern was not to develop negativity towards those who were mistreat those while I was arrested in prison, those who were mistreating me. So I'm sure that in spite of there being many friends and relatives who you know, and yes, are frightened. There are others who are beyond the threat, period, and who are already in prison or in danger, or this or that. And they're done that comes up. Like when in the dying processes, all of a sudden, there's an enormous silence and enormous peace. And all of a sudden their Dharma is coming up. And they may also think, May they not be punished by their deeds, they're ignorant people.
Host 23:07
Right, thank you. And I want to look at that other side of the extreme as well. There's also this way of that I've heard from practitioners, that is more removed. And that takes the form of something like well, I'll just send metta and this is their own karma, and it's their own armies, and we have to accept this or, or some other form that's like, Well, you know, Buddhism is going to survive, Dharma is going to survive in Myanmar, in some form, rulers are just rulers, these are worldly things. And it's, we go through these kind of this kind of these kind of chaotic issues, and we're going to come out the other end, in one form or another, it takes a kind of coldness and a lack of engagement, that the only job of a meditator really is just to sit on a cushion and accept reality and send metta and, and and be in touch with what is and there's nothing more that could be done. What is your feeling about that kind of attitude?
Daniel Mayer 24:09
Well, as a meditator, I totally disagree with this disengagement. You sent me data, but it's like a radio station, they send a certain frequency and you have to tune into that frequency to send data to people whose frequency is so opposite. It's useless. No, you have to send a letter to yourself and to your own people, because they can respect it. They can accept it. But what I do feel that Mater should not be an excuse. And you should also understand that yes, karma is an opportunity to overcome certain challenges, and you can be come more holy and dissolve that can tendency to do wrong, but there is dumb and dumb. So to say, it doesn't affect me just because I am not there, or I'm not part of it, or I don't agree, that is not really understanding what is our role as meditators?
25:23
Right? So
Host 25:24
what would you describe a proper kind of engagement on the part of a meditator? And I don't mean to ask this in a way, like it's a blanket statement where we're dictating Well, someone should do this, or they should do that, because it depends so much on someone's circumstances, and their position and, and everything else. But speaking more generally, what words of advice would you give for a meditator who had a very formal and serious practice on the cushion? And was aware of this issue? And just holding in their mind? What type of engagement is appropriate? Is it enough to just sit on a cushion and said meta? Or is there something actually active that they should be doing to be involved? And how do you go about making that decision?
Daniel Mayer 26:12
I think it's a very personal question. So on a personal level, I think you have touched two extremes, either. Totally. Annette, not involving not getting involved as well had nothing to do as if I were not part of being human. And on the other hand, being a victim, and an object of situations that are being created. But where I'm really not directly making it happen or wanting it to happen. And I think we, each individual that is aware of what is happening, because I'm sure there are so many people, they don't even know what's happening. I don't even know where is Myanmar watch this. But amongst those who are meditators, or even spiritually inclined, and see, the terrible injustice is that are being done to people just because they have different opinions, or just because they have different ideals for themselves and their upcoming generations. There, there is a certain dynamic teaching that tells us don't harm yourself, and don't harm others. Now, obviously, don't harm yourself means not really crying over spilled milk. It's what's happening, but how to accept that is somehow rather just work of reflection, a work of maybe knowing a bit more about the Dhamma. And the Buddha's teachings. Like, when the Buddha breathed his last, it was written No, there were some who cried because they didn't know enough about them. And others who say, Who knew without the teacher, or the teachings of the Dharma, and who knew and I can quote things, but I think you're talking not just to be Buddhist meditators, but to people who understand there is something that is happening in our own society that is unacceptable. And how do I engage myself or, and disengage myself from that? And for me, I understand there are difficult times when I cannot sit a whole hour on the cushion, and I have to get up every 20 minutes, because it's all overwhelming. And then there are other times when, wow, I can sit four or five times a day. And it's such a relief. But yes, Dharma does give us tools to cope with things that are unacceptable.
Host 29:20
Yeah, right. Certainly it does. And on that note, I wonder in your multifaceted career as a Dharma teacher, and so many countries in the world, so many places that few teachers event to and have had have been able to interact with people from so many backgrounds and many of them in countries where these kinds of traumatic things have happened. I'm sure in addition to the example you gave like of the Burmese woman in Germany, who was on the course and had had suffered in Myanmar many years ago, you've also encountered many people who have suffered because of instability and lack of safety in their own country. trees, and yet are trying to take an intensive meditation course and facing that trauma. And so I'm curious what, what kinds of issues have they come with when they've been on the course and how have you helped them through the teachings to be able to find some stability, stability or strength in such difficult times,
Daniel Mayer 30:26
I think the role of a teacher is much more limited than you really want to put it, I can tell you of parents who have suffered so much, and some parents have not been able to overcome the suffering that their children have created, or that the countries have created. I know of a one man, he son disappeared. And he wanted to see the dead body and the police, the military would not release it. But because of an very high influence, and lots of money, I'm sure as well, he was able to see the dead body of his son. And he is really the president of a very, very important company in Argentina. And he saw his son, I know him. And it was so terrible, what he saw that he never was able to overcome that. So I don't think it's only political, I don't think it's only there are so many other things that are happening, like people who lose so many. I think we cannot just concentrate on something, because that's where we identified ourselves, we have to really let go, this letting go is very important. And the teachings will only help as much as far as you are really practicing and really meditating and really understanding the teachings. It's not just, as you said, sitting on the cushion. It's really more understanding the Four Noble Truths, life is suffering. There is an arising of suffering, there is a tap to come out of software. I know that it's not easy. And I know it's much nicer to sit in the state. So here imaging and sit on a computer and then decide, okay, how will I relax myself, as opposed to sitting where the bombs are. And the people are shrieking. And there are wounds all over the place. But somehow or other, I do feel that we can only help by understanding that we have more to do than just follow the news.
Host 33:15
Right, and we've looked a little bit at people outside of the country, and their response in the different ways that could come. Looking now to the people inside the country. You have a wide population of Buddhist and meditative practitioners, of course, you also have people from different ethnic backgrounds, different different religions. So there's great diversity. But in the protest movement, there also are many people taking taking part in the movement who are coming from this background, there's monastics that are also involved. There's Dhamma teachers that are also involved. If you were in a country, where you saw these great wrongs taking place that were affecting the lives and the freedoms and the rights of millions of people. And yet, you also were a very serious practitioner who understood these teachings to the best of your ability and applied them. What is the role of how to actively be involved in the world, and with social justice, especially at a time when this window is closing, and affecting so many of your people, while at the same time holding these meditative principles in your mind as you go forth? How does a protester from this background find this intersection?
34:42
I think the question is very well presented. And there is no right answer because every situation is different. Let me just tell you yesterday, I was with a very interesting man. He was also in a very high position in the Catholic Church. And he was telling me of how this new pope from Argentina did not defend his own people from the military dictatorship. On the other hand, I have just read a fantastic book from Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi how he expressed when the Pope went to Sri Lanka, and devalued Buddhism as something that has nothing to do with what it really is and the Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi replies to what this Pope Ratzinger has said. And to go back to your point, I think it is something that changes from moment to moment and from person to person. In some cases, you can put your body when there's shooting, you can put your body beside your son, they should shoot you first, and you can save your son if he's in the back. And then other times, you can just run behind a tree and try to protect yourself. So there is really no one answer, there is a middle path. And there is a situation which when it happens, you act upon it, and when it's over which it will be over, and all of a sudden, that's where you stand... either under in this loka or in that loka. And it is something that we unfortunately have to live with, and not make the best of it, but see how we can fit with what we understand, with what we know. And with what we can give. Like I was in India until a few months ago, and there were poor people who didn't have anything because of this COVID thing, and they would go to the railway station in Igatpuri. And people would walk to the railway station to give them money, to give them food, and even at Dhamma Giri, they would make food packages and give it to those people who had nothing to eat or were mentally retarded or things like that. So there is something that you can be part of. And there are something that you can just or you can do is. May all beings be happy, may they all be liberated. Right, I
Host 38:04
want to focus a little bit more on the protests themselves. And just share some anecdotes with you. I know you've been a bit out of the loop with your teaching and practice. And this story is something that's developing day by day. So I'd like to share a few anecdotes that highlight some incredible inspiring stories of how these moments of practice are actually being put into, into the moment using these principles that that one has learned from the Buddhist teaching. So let's take the principle of metta principle of loving kindness. It's not just sitting on a cushion and sending it out and radiating to all people. It's bringing it to bear at the most difficult, intense and dangerous times you could face in your life. And there's an example that was shared of a tense standoff between protesters and police. And someone on the protest side took the bullhorn and offered water to all of the police officers said it's a hot day drink some water let's take some time to cool off. And with this active meta with the way it was described to me with this real meta of how the water was presented and given it kind of suffused over the whole situation. Everyone just kind of relaxed and the tension went away in that moment from that meta. Another. Another principle we can look at is Donna. Giving generosity and the giving and generosity has been through the roof this month. It's been like nothing I've ever seen anywhere. You know, there have been people have given food for the protest taking place. There have been different segments that have made sure that everyone is fed every that people have a place to rest during the protest if they want and set up the kind of rest corners, that there's drinks that there's medical attention. There's people who go Pick trash up after the protests. So there's this, I can give more examples. But there's this tremendous effort of giving data on generosity, not just to the people that the fellow protesters, but also to the people on the other side of the lines. Another example, I guess this would fall more in the meta category, I saw this extraordinary video of these protesters on the other lines of police, just saying in the most gentle way possible, you know, we're the same. You have a mother, I have a mother, you might have kids, I have kids, we're from the same country, we're the same blood, we worry about each other. We were coming from the same place. We don't want to harm each other. I don't want to harm you. You don't want to harm me, why don't why don't we just why don't we just see this? Why don't why don't we calm down and see what we have in common see each other as people, just this beautiful kind of discourse that she was giving to the police in a very calm and measured and slow away, that one couldn't help but just fall into the logic of what she was saying. And then there's the principle of Sheila or not harming. Or that's one of the Sheila, of course of the five precepts is that is not to kill others not to not to harm others. And we've seen examples of criminals. Sometimes children, sometimes criminals that were put on monk clothes, so they actually looked like monks. But they were not, that were sent to cause terror into these neighborhoods. And as it was explained by some protesters, the feeling was that even if these criminals were not successful videos would emerge, that would show the protesters beating the people to defend themselves, who look like monks who were dressed as monks, but actually, we're not. So this was actually a tactic to kind of trap them into spreading these images, and then, and then lessening the support for the protesters. But this didn't happen, because they're the protesters that we've spoken to, and that we've seen, by and large, are thoroughly committed not just to non violence, but to non harm. They captured the criminals that were trying to do their community harm. Even with no training, these are just civilians, they detain them, and then they gave them food and a place to rest. And so it's this extraordinary moment of seeing these meditative and Buddhist principles put to action. It's almost like they've been cultivating many of these people have been cultivating their minds for many, many years towards this inclination and towards this direction. And this is the moment in the most dangerous and terrifying moment of their lives, that rests on everything, is the moment when these principles are actually coming out into play, and actually, being manifested. And to me, I hear these stories, and how can one not be reminded of the nonviolent movements of Martin Luther King civil rights or Gandhi in India. But of course, this one is so influenced by some of these principles that are expanded upon by the Buddha. Of course, not everyone, there's there's people from other religions there. But these are moments that are standing out as, as being Dharma and action as being a Mental Cultivation that becomes your only tool and your only weapon against the most terrifying aggression of a train military coming at you. So I don't really have a question with this. It's more just to share some of the background I've been seen and in your experience as a Dharma teacher, and as living through and advising people who've been in unstable countries, your thoughts on being a practitioner at this time and trying to find these tools to bring off the cushion into this moment?
Daniel Mayer 43:55
It is so inspiring what you're telling us. And yes, it's exactly what we all are really so grateful about. Having reached a certain height, a certain level of understanding a certain maturity, and able to be more closer to enlightenment closer to liberation, closer to freedom, and closer to our fellow men. Thank you, thank you for sharing all this. It's so important, it's so important that I'm sure all these things will be feed will feed will be food for so many of us who directly and indirectly continue to have to deal with these atrocious situations. Right,
Host 44:55
right and I want to move on to another area. or background of student we've looked at different kinds of practitioners looked at people in Myanmar. And I want to talk about specifically, practitioners and teachers, maybe administrators in the passionate organization in the tradition of Sri Lanka specifically, because this is an organization and a teaching that comes from largely a Burmese lineage. And something that we hear as practitioners in discourses is the reminder about this enormous debt of gratitude that we have, for this country, the golden land for the monks and practitioners and teachers who have preserved this teaching who have carried this teaching on this is where, of course sn Goenka himself was from and where his line of teachers came from. And when we hear stories about for example, my friend and his family who are actually personally embodying this gratitude that we have his family is literally some of the people that for generations have been preserving lady say it as monastery and trust and lineage and legacy in Manjula. We also have fellow Dharma brothers and sisters and teachers, students in this tradition and in other traditions in the country now that are running for their lives and fighting for their own freedom non violently. So I do understand that around the world, there, at any given time, this is not unique. I understand this is unique for me and for Burmese people, because we we in our lives are very uniquely affected and touched. But this is the way of samsara This is the way that things are imperfect in this world. But when we look at Myanmar, specifically, and being the bedrock of these teachings, it's one of only two countries in the entire world which the organization plans pilgrimages to, and where there is this special background and lineage of where these teachings have been preserved, and people go to pay homage for what, if any, is the responsibility for someone from this tradition right now, given the debt of gratitude were reminded about and what is currently happening there?
Daniel Mayer 47:21
Well, there is no question that Myanmar has been the place where the tradition was maintaining his Christian purity, both in party and party party. And that was so obvious also for us and go Inca who wanted his ashes there in Myanmar II. That's where they are now. And nowhere else. They were spreading other places maybe on the way, but that's where it really ended and was meant to be. I personally don't know, with these elder generations, who are already like me at or in their 80s, I just passed my 80th birthday. How identified we as are with, as done may cause with one or another situation. What I do know for myself, is that I see what's happening in Myanmar, like one of these things that have happened in so many of these dictatorial, powerful individuals who hold to power. And it's not just military, it's also social. I mean, like, it's really something that you just look beyond, beyond. And it happens also in Myanmar, where a father spanks his son, because he misbehaves, just like you would hit shout to a dog, but the son or the daughter event, and so, so helpless in front of the strength of a father. And in that sense, I must say, yes, we do feel Myanmar as our home where the Dharma was maintained. And I don't see what's happening to date to me and mark as I, as what is really happening when I sent netta, to Myanmar, and gratitude to all the raw lineage that has kept from Scott Dharma Siddhartha lygon to that lineage. I sent Mehta and somehow rather it may not touch what's happening now or If it does, it's very much in the surface. And maybe that's because I'm not developed enough,
Host 50:06
right. And as we see this play out, you know, it's not just a worldly struggle it is, depending on how this goes is going to have a direct impact on the Sangha itself on the types of monks that are promoted and encouraged and the types that are sent the types of monks as well as the types of teachings and sermons that are promoted and that are suppressed and even worse. And so
Daniel Mayer 50:36
don't let me interrupt you. I'm interrupting you, because Thank you. I don't, I disagree. I disagree, in the sense that the Dharma has already started and has already been spread around the world. It was not retained in very, very few hands in Myanmar, but has already spread. And when the new Buddha Maitreya, or the new summer somebody I need, when this has is ripening, the Dhamma will reach much wider, visible and invisible beings in this loca and in other locales, so no, don't really make today 2021, the 21st century to what it was before venerable ladies I do, and all the others from Burma allowed the Dharma to move out.
Host 51:41
Right and I do agree then the in the past generation or two, there's been a extraordinary spreading and exportation of that Dhamma practice to other parts of the world, limited, I should say to, to just a few select teachers and traditions. And that is where in Myanmar today we find this plethora and diversity and depth of practice, like we don't, anywhere else, and of skilled teachers, and some of those teachers with certain kinds of progressive leanings and certain ways to expound the Dhamma have already been arrested, and are already imprisoned. Some of those their safety is jeopardized. Some teachers that have much more reactionary and narrow versions of their Dharma practice, if you would even call it Dharma have been released from prison, from the recent military. And so already, we're seeing that there is within me and Mar itself, the opportunities for what type of study and practice is being is being limited in preferenced. And if it goes on into the future, you can see whatever types of meditation centers or teachings or monks or whatnot, that that preferential treatment continues, and yes, it's correct that that some teachings have spread, and that these kind of new seeds have been planted in in different parts of the world that have their own their own complete meditative community and centers and everything else. But this source and this depth of people who who come to the source to want to ordain or to want to study or to want to, to go to, to dedicate their lives in ways they can in their home community. This is something that these worldly events are threatening to cut off in some way. And so as meditators, I would argue, this is something that is affecting us in our spiritual practice, and the depth of where the spiritual practice could go at this moment, as we're seeing it play out. And I guess my question is, with an organization that is so indebted to where its lineages come from, does it have any kind of ethical responsibility at any level at any level of management or teaching to have some kind of statement to to stand with, to stand with the protesters who are defending their freedom or to stand against the them being killed and to make a statement that they do not want them to be killed? Or to collect donation to support the support them with Donna with food or or with other materials in this difficult time? Is everything shutting down, especially those people that are overlooking the sanctity of some of the sites within this very lineage or within these centers? Is there any action that the organization outside of Myanmar should be doing at this time?
Daniel Mayer 54:47
Thank you for that point. Maybe this is the last question that I really feel is I should answer I know that we This the ruins in Afghanistan were bombed. And the caves and everything I was shocked. And I wondered, is there anything I can do to help that ignorance? Because it has nothing to do with Muslim teachings that they should put bombs in those sacred places where I'm sure there must have been also many de vos, and many ancient, very spiritual forces. And what you're asking is something that I also asked myself, to what extent can organizations, not just the United Nations, but not just maybe individual organizations that are standing on a base of gamma that came from me and Ma? To what extent are they is their role such that they can and should take a stand? It is something very personal, I really don't have an answer as far as part of an organization, because I'm not in the organization of Vipassana as I'm just a meditator, who, for incredibly fortunate reason. We call it karma. I don't know what to call it, but I was able to go to Guru Ji going, and hear his voice and immediately feel, I think this is where my father sent me. And Guruji going, I have said, we have meditated in many lifetimes together. And it would never occur to me to engage in anything that is really happening. So as far as I am concerned, that the person organization, whether it's this one, or that one, we are all children of God, karma, the Buddha, and we are all dummy cause. And I don't think the organization itself exists. It's just a few individuals who tried to make to agree on certain points to keep the purity of the dam. And some of our out of their logic, and they say, No, we have to keep the words of the Dhamma, as we heard it from this or that teacher, and others say, No, we have to practice and from our practice, we can understand the Dharma. And that's what we want to maintain. So I really don't believe in organizations. But I do believe that I know from before, that when there were disasters, even in India, the organization accepted donations from different students in different countries and sent it to that place to help those individuals or to help that region through I wouldn't be surprised at all that to have been the person or organizations which there are many make collections. And whenever the time is ready for us to send it less like they sent it to Sri Lanka, when there was this terrible tsunami, that they will also send it to me and Mark back will not be a big relief from the terrible things that people are going through now. And it may only arrive after this fire, the ashes have somehow rather descended. Thank you very much. I'm very sorry if this is not exactly what you were asking. But that's as close as I can get my I appreciate any response.
Host 59:24
I I really am honored that you take the time at all to come on here. It's such a difficult painful time for many of us. Certainly, Burmese, certainly meditators of other traditions, certainly meditators of this tradition, to be able to hear an experienced teacher talk on this topic. And someone who has lived through and experienced other kind of turmoils in other places and seeing that intersection of where Dhamma practice could come. I just am really thankful for anything you have to say at this time.
Daniel Mayer 59:56
metta to you my dear Joe metta to you at To all of us who are listening, and who maybe not be present, but are really going through very difficult times matter to us all.
Host 1:00:15
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