Transcript: Episode 38: Feeding Freedom, Not Fear

Following is the full transcript for the interview with MiMi Aye, which appeared on March 7, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Host  00:00

You're listening to a special version of the Insight Myanmar podcast covering the military coup and the ensuing protest movement that has developed during this crisis. We're ramping up the production of not only podcast episodes, but also our blog and other social media platforms. So we invite you to check these out as well. All the other projects that had been in progress prior to February have since been paused and definitely to focus entirely on this emergency. But for now, let's get into our show. My name is Alex. All right, I'm talking with Mimi a from England. She is the author of Mandalay recipes, and Tales from a Burmese kitchen also runs the site, Burmese beyond and has her own podcast the MSG pod. And it's so great to be able to welcome her and join and talk a little bit about what's been going on this month. So Mimi, a thank you so much for taking the time to be on.

MiMi Aye  01:53

Thank you so much for inviting me. It's good to be.

Host  01:57

Yeah. So before we get into it, can I ask a little bit about your background about where you're from and how you ended up where you are and what you're doing? Okay.

MiMi Aye  02:06

So my parents came over to England, just before I was born, like two, three months before I was born. I've got two older brothers who were six and nine. And they were very much part of the there was like a brain drain to the UK at the time of mainly doctors from Burma. And so there was a whole generation that came home with their children. But I think they were very much of the opinion that they would end up going back at some point. Especially my parents. And so even though I was born here, I was brought up I mean, it's entirely in by which I mean we only ate Burmese food at home, we Arby's at home, my parents still wear Burmese clothes, and I do indoors anyway, it's too cold to LNG outside. It's just one of those situations where I think culturally, we were very, very much Burmese. But then obviously, outside we were, you know, part of the UK, we integrated it wasn't like we kind of didn't talk to the locals. But it means I'm kind of I guess it's the cult, third culture kid thing in which I there's kind of two parts of me where I feel very much like I'm from the UK. But I also feel I'm very much from Burma, even though I've never actually lived in Burma. And that's probably because we're very early on. So when I was three years old, my grandparents, my dad's parents from Mandalay, bay came to stay with us for a year. And my parents were both working at the time. So they very much kind of looked after me and my brothers for that year. And then after that, when I was eight years old, my parents could afford to go back for the first time. And so, you know, the whole rest of our family is still there was still. And so we went back and we traveled around because, you know, my dad's side from Mandalay, and my mom's side from mogul in Yangon. And so we went and stayed with, we did the thing, we, you know, how you, PR Buddha, you kind of go to the PR, almost fun family trip. I'm terrible. But if I told you this before, I'm about like your average Christian in a western country, I kind of celebrate the festivals, and no, I know sometimes and some concepts. So, you know, I know what it's like to have to kind of, you know, the Buddhist precepts and stuff but I'm otherwise very, very bad at that kind of thing. So, so for me, it's, you know, I have these, I guess, these two lives. And then, so, you know, I, obviously, I grew up here and I carried on visiting family back home, sometimes with my parents, sometimes by myself. And then I ended up kind of getting into writing as a hobby, primarily food writing. And I had basically my mom is a really brilliant cook. And she was always kind of hailed as being the best and the kind of the Burmese community here in around London. And she, she's, I think she's fairly typical in that she'd never had any recipes written down. And she didn't really teach me what she was doing. But I'd observe I'd watch her in the kitchen and make notes. And then obviously, in time I went back to Obama, I would kind of eat a lot, absolute lesson, that's what we would do. And I would kind of ask, I wouldn't bother stallholders and cafe owners for them. And, you know, obviously, they'd never give us their recipes, but they'd give us hints and tips. And then, you know, when we got back to England, we'd reverse engineer how things should be. And so I very much kept alive. Like, it's not like what we cook is what my mom was cooking it. And when we left the country, it's still kind of living breathing Burmese food, kind of what people still eat in Burma. So forgive me for using Burma because I'm old, I still haven't got. But yeah, but basically, I got into kind of writing about Burmese food. And then the way these things work these days is that I was scouted on social media to write a cookery book about noodles. And so I wrote that in 2014. And when that came out, I kind of shoehorned in a chapter about Burmese noodles, because I never really thought that I'd get to write a book entirely about Burmese food. And that book did did pretty well, I'm really kind of liked. And then, at some point, a couple years goes into 2019, I finally published a book about Burmese food. And the thing about that book, which is kind of I have a funny relationship with my book, because it's it's very, very personal in a way that I don't think many cookbooks are. There's like a 40 page introduction, which is almost an autobiography, where I kind of talk about my upbringing, my childhood and my family, I talk a lot about Burmese culture. I talk about things like geography of the country, and how that's affected, you know how food tastes have developed, and differed around the regions. And, you know, every recipe as well, I kind of put into context, because I didn't want to just like, say this, this is a lovely rice dish, and you should eat it just because it's tasty. So I've, I've kind of tried to say why I've written this recipe, what it means to me, or kind of its place in Burmese culture as a whole. So, for example, there's my recipe for dumbbell, you know, kind of our version of biryani, I've mentioned how this is the really celebrate every dish and how it was served at my own wedding. So it's kind of trying to paint the picture for every recipe so people know how these foods are enjoyed and loved and not just trying it and then moving on, I suppose.

Host  07:59

Right? That's really great and interesting, and also hits upon how the food and the culture and the people are all intertwined and related and connecting it and bringing it all together. So on that note, you know, I think there are listeners here who have eaten some Burmese food but can't really remember what it was maybe some have never eaten Burmese food. Maybe some have spent some time in Myanmar, but don't really exactly know how to classify or describe it. So you being the expert, how would you describe to a novice? What Burmese food actually is? How would you categorize it?

MiMi Aye  08:32

So the way I've been describing it probably most recently is I think it's apart from we don't use coconut as much I think it's very similar to Malaysian cuisine. And the reason I say that is because it's very much uncategorizable in the you know, you have rice as your daily meal. But then, people love noodles. And we love fritters, and we love salads, I mean of soups, and you know that, you know, whatever you feel like eating, you can guarantee that you can go and find it and it's still very much Burmese food. And in terms of kind of like influences, I think like our salads are quite similar to Thai salads and now noodles towards Chinese noodles. And I guess our curries, similar to Indian curries. But then, the thing that I always find very important to explain to people is that, for us, it isn't just different flavors that we like we're also very, we find things like texture, very important. So, I mean, the one one thing that I've always found quite amusing is that all my friends from other countries in the area, talk about how much they love kanji because they think it's you know, such a vital restorative thing and you know, there's like kind of whole rituals developed around it, but in Burma the opinion of kanji, which because somehow is pretty, pretty dim, we have a pretty dim view of it because it's considered a bit too dull. And one note Even even if you do put like toppings on it. So what what we care about is, for example, you know, the, the sort of pseudo national dish or more hanger. It's a sensibly like a soft soup with soft noodles in it, but you have to have crunchy fritters on it and you have, you know, the kind of garnishes a soft egg and this and the coriander and then the spice of the chili and, and you have to kind of make sure that every spoonful you have is slightly different to kind of keep your palate alive. And it's the same even with rice because you know, with a rice dish, you could might think, you know, rice is can be quite plain. But we try to serve it with a soup on the side and with you know, some dipping sauce and some vegetables and again, something crunchy, and, you know, maybe a Korean to stir fry. So it's like, you want to have interest with every mouthful. So that's what I really like about Burmese food.

Host  10:57

That's really interesting. It reminds me of I wrote this some meditators guidebook to the country, and we had a whole chapter on food. And we look specifically at like food and monasteries. And in writing the book, we just reached out to a lot of different people to get their feedback and views on perspectives, anecdotes, and such. And we talked to one Burmese guy, he said something that that I've never forgotten. And I've talked to other readers of the book, who also said this line like just changed the whole way they interacted with Burmese cuisine, where he was he was actually describing how one sits down to eat a meal and describing all the little bowls that are in front of the pickles, the kind of clear soup with little herbs, the different curries, the different sauces, the rice. And he was just describing this kind of like, like critical engagement of like, Well, first, I take a little bit of this sauce with this rice and this texture. And then because it does this thing on my tongue, then I take a little bit of soup. But then the soup kind of washes it clean. And now it's ready for a little bit of this. And it was this like this incredibly like complicated and engaged way to take all these different flavors and textures. And I remember my friend, my foreign friends and I talking to each other and be like I've been here years. And that never occurred to me to do that with all these things. I just kind of ate this and then ate this.

MiMi Aye  12:08

And that's why we like to use our hands as well, because it lets us form these little morsels more easily.

Host  12:15

So what's your favorite dish?

MiMi Aye  12:18

It changes all the time. I think the ones that I say are my favorite now just the ones that are my favorite for sentimental reasons. My favorite at the moment is a digital mogul mishi just because it's a noodle dish from my mom's hometown of mogul. And the reason that's my favorite is because it means home to me. Because when we come when we get off the flight, and we land in the country, and we get whisked to my Auntie's house, it's the first thing that we eat is on the table ready for us.

12:47

All right.

Host  12:50

That's great. That's great. So staying on the topic of food, just to take a moment to understand how the restaurant industry in general has been affected in this year of pandemic before even the February events. I'm curious if if you have friends in the restaurant, food industry back in Burma, if you've heard anything about how either big restaurant owners or the small shop install sellers on the street, how they've been faring even prior to February?

MiMi Aye  13:17

Yeah, I have friends in kind of both types, high end and more kind of everyday dining, let's say. And not great. Is is the thing because you know, they everyone's kind of been on lockdown for a while now. There's been a lot of reliance on delivery services like food, Panda. So people are kind of trying to think of new ways to sell their menus. And it's kind of working but not as well as it would if you could have dine in as the issue. But I mean, bummer is very much a kind of a parcel and a tiffin carrier culture anyway. So I think people already have that kind of mode of taking away food. And so I think that's been continuing and been ramped up a little bit. I think the people with the high end restaurants are actually having more difficulties, because those are the people that have been relying on people coming and enjoying the atmosphere and join the being served table service. But they to kind of have had to adapt the methods and the foods that they supply. So it is portable, and so it's deliverable. So I mean, people were coping just about but obviously, the pandemic hit them quite hard now now. I think people are barely surviving.

Host  14:42

Yeah, I know. And that's in our kind of in society. I know in the in the monastery and nunnery world, that there have been a number of places that have just been without food. It's been really tragic. Yeah, I mean, there was this whole this these current As well as former monastics outside of Myanmar put together this project last year called food for nuns that was actually quite successful in terms of eliciting donation from meditators, people interested in Buddhism around the world, to be able to purchase food for a lot of nunneries, around Yangon. But just it's tragic because, you know, it's such a given culture and there's so much merit to be made, and given to monastics, but the pandemic was so hard that there's sometimes actually wasn't enough food, even in monasteries and nunneries.

MiMi Aye  15:26

I mean, I'm not surprised, I might my auntie Mandalay, she and she's in the habit of doing like the daily soul now. And he also regularly went to, like Soca. And what happened? She unfortunately went to one where one of the gentlemen at her table, go had COVID. And everyone at the table, and I think everyone in this and perimeter ended up being quarantined in a in a, like a hotel, on the outskirts of Mandalay for like 25 days, I think, Oh, wow. I think she did not enjoy that.

Host  16:01

No, the quarantine centers were really difficult. I mean, they were almost I also have friends who had to go to them. And luckily, they didn't test positive, but they did. The experience just sounded like a nightmare. It sounded like almost like a prison, where if you if you didn't have it, you had a better chance of getting it when you came out? No, no. So moving to the current situation, you know, just as things as if things weren't tough enough, we now have this terrible crisis going on this month. And the response from all sectors of society has just been absolutely incredible. And certainly, this is the case from the cooks and the people in food as well. Some places have been offering free food to the CDM borders, that's the civil disobedience movement, as well as to protesters on the front lines, either in the form of cooked meals or raw ingredients. And I've seen other stalls they've outright so like some stalls have said, you know, any CDM worker eats here for free on one side of the stall. And then the other side of the stall, they say, we do not serve military or police Oh, yeah. So

MiMi Aye  17:06

brave as well.

Host  17:08

It's so brave. And then there's these protests themselves, where various organizations, people, everything else have just offered these huge amounts of food to everyone freely. So I'm curious if you been involved in the food world yourself, if you've been connected to any of these initiatives, or people or organizations, if you know anything about how this is being carried out right now.

MiMi Aye  17:29

A lot of it is kind of informally. So I recently on, you mentioned that I have a podcast myself, the lady that I spoke to, she's actually in the restaurant industry. And she said it's all it's all a bit ad hoc. And the reason is because I mean, I don't know how much people know about the history of Burma. But it's, it's always been a situation where you can't necessarily trust people. There was a system of military intelligence and military informers as well. So it's been people using whatever techniques to get messages to each other and hoping that those messages won't get intercepted. But she has got a group of people that she works with regularly. And it's kind of word of mouth more than anything else, where they have been kind of providing food to protesters. Another friend of mine, she runs like a big chain of restaurants. And they've been doing the same thing. They've been taking parcels out every day for people taking water and other drinks to people. And it was they have a system where other people like myself can donate to them directly. So they are being funded. And we're not expecting these, these restaurants, which are probably not having any business as it is, aren't being expected to kind of bankrupt themselves in order to help the people out there.

Host  18:55

How would listeners be able to donate to that if they wanted to?

MiMi Aye  18:58

It's it's very, very difficult. Because as I said, it's hard to know who to trust that you'd have to know someone personally. I mean, the thing is, with all the banks that close so it's not like an international transfer is going to really work at the moment. So

Host  19:18

Right, right, understood. So you know, how do you think they're capable of doing and managing this? I'm just thinking like, one day you wake up, your life is normal, you're running your business, you have your family and professional, whatever your concerns are of the day. And then the next day, you're organizing food for 1000s of volunteers. So how how do you think this transition has been able to be made to respond to this moment?

MiMi Aye  19:43

I mean, I think part of it is kind of like the Burmese Buddhist personality. The way to say, and because we are kind of used to feeding lots of people. We have the thing I mentioned before we have some noun, so you're using You used to feeding monks and nuns on a daily basis, you're used to kind of doing these charitable donations. So it's not an alien thing to be doing. I think all that's happening now is that they're kind of ramping up the scale of what they're doing. And in terms of like, how they're funding it again, like I said, it's partly from donations. And I think it's just partly, I don't know, I actually. And I'm worried that they're gonna run out of money. But I think it is one of the things so you know, how like Burma has consistently ranked as one of the highest countries in terms of generosity and charity forgiving. It's the whole thing about how they'd give the shirt off their back. And I think that's very much the mentality, there's dominant dominating right now.

Host  20:49

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I that that also fed into my observation of it was, I noticed that having lived in Myanmar for a number of years there, there are things in society that can be kind of frustrating and not work and in the same way, from a Western sense, but sometimes as I would observe this, I would also observe every single day, at every single monastery and nunnery across the entire country, a full a nutritious meal is provided to them at the time, it's supposed to be provided, you know, and so you're talking about hundreds of 1000s of these meals that's provided, not only are they provided, but they have to be offered the right way. They can't just be like prepared and left there. If they're a few minutes late, then, you know, then you're risking that the monk is not going to get his food for the day. For those who don't know, I should say, for those who don't know, the rules of Buddhism, monks and nuns are not allowed to eat after 12 noon. So if you have this great volition of giving a monk a meal at 11 o'clock, and then things get a little tight in the kitchen, and you don't give it to him until like 1130 1145. Well, he has 15 minutes to eat. So like, you have to have this daily organization of preparing this food. This is of course, all voluntary. It's the these are these are people who have renounced society. And it has to be offered in the correct way. So there's this whole protocol with it as well. So it's always amazed me, not just the generosity of it, which of course, speaks for itself, but the level of organization and coordination and I see this one. So I've been at Burmese nunneries, from Burmese monasteries and nunneries from the inside, where they're doing this preparation. And then I've spent time at like Western meditation centers where volunteers are preparing food for say, like 100 meditators. And you're inside those kitchens, and they are like frenetic every day. And just just like, how do we do this, and what's happening with this, and sometimes things get late. And so to see how much Westerners are, like struggling to get this out on time, and get this done just in 10 days of their lives, and then to see an entire society organizing as day after day after day without complaining and really without flaw. I've never really seen a meal not turned out on time. It feels like there's got to be something here. There's got to be something with like, the organization and the both the generosity as well as the practicality of how it gets done. That some spirit and ability of what they're doing in the monastery has to be that there has to be some of that spirit out on the street.

MiMi Aye  23:16

I mean, yeah, I think he's I mean, in terms of like organization, I mentioned that my mum's a brilliant cook. So my mom is 73 this year, I think and every day she still cooks a full Burmese meal with like only accompaniments every day. And before the pandemic she was in my children's like full time carer, she's shielding now. But yeah, so she was looking after my two little children and cooking this amazing meal every day. And I swear she didn't blink. And I swear she would just get up and do it be done in half an hour. And I can't do that. And I feel really ashamed about it. Because I feel like maybe I'm too Western. So yeah, I think is the same kind of spirit that that just makes them incredibly efficient.

Host  24:02

Yeah, right. I mean, just the other day, I was hearing from a friend and monywa that actually two days ago when you are faced some some some difficulty of the military coming in. And he was describing how they knew the military was coming. And so he actually lives outside of Manjula. So the men were all going out into the streets to make to do makeshift barricades of like, you know, putting their cars out dirt, rocks, wood, stuff like that. And so he had pictures of all that he showed me. And then the women all went to cook meals for the guys putting the barricades up. And so it was just like this. This is amazing. This is this is this. These these residents who one day are going about their lives and the next day are preparing what they need to do to stop an onslaught. And, you know, the food fits into that with how they have to manage that as well.

MiMi Aye  24:49

But it's kind of funny, I mentioned this in my book where I say that for the Burmese Necessity is the mother of invention and you know the show MacGyver I always used to think that like, everyone in my family was basically like MacGyver my mother, because she could do that you could just give her like, I don't know, I've been since she's a really good Carpenter as well. Give her a bit of wood. And she'd have like a perfect stall the next day. And yeah, I think there's just that kind of resourcefulness as well.

Host  25:24

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So moving along with looking at this last month, and and how it's bad, I want to shift gears a little bit and just talk about the personal side of it. And as you know, we've talked offline you have, and you also shared something on Twitter, which quite impacted me with being able to express just the the personal side of, of how you were interacting with the tragedy of what was happening. And so I want to check in now, how are you doing now? How are you feeling?

MiMi Aye  26:01

I have this thing, or I think I've compartmentalize my feelings, I think I have to, I'm kind of running on fumes at the moment, because the time difference means that it's like half a 2:30am. Here is when everybody wakes up in Burma. And when I say wakes up, I mean, the internet wakes up because obviously there's been this nightly shutdown, where, from 1am to 9am, they don't have any connectivity. So means I'm, I am staying up till half two at night, just to find out if my family is still around. I'm checking in on them, and you know, making sure that they send me like the little thumbs up or, you know, whatever. So yeah, but because of that, obviously not getting enough sleep. But I'm also feeling kind of, I don't know, like I said, I've tried to compartmentalize things because I need to, you know, keep things together for my children and my husband, you know, get and get on with, like the other things that I have to do in my life, but I'm spending like the rest of my time, just trying to keep tabs on stuff and trying to spread awareness for what's happening out there. Because, obviously, it's like all of these things. If I think for a lot of people, it was on the front page that when it happened, the coup and you know, people have lost interest, because there are other things to get on with. And everyone's having a hard time because of the pandemic. So, you know, who's gonna worry about stuff happening on the other side of the world. So I am kind of spending my time trying to keep it in, in people's minds and, and sharing petitions and sharing links to email templates and, and saying, Come on, all you have to do is click here. And you know, every little bit helps. So yeah, it's just trying to trying to juggle things, and I'm not sure how successful

Host  27:49

Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, same here. If, if you're comfortable with it, I'd like to read that piece that you wrote on Twitter that impacted me so much. Would you mind if I do that?

MiMi Aye  27:59

No, go ahead.

Host  28:00

Okay, so you wrote, something I really don't talk about is to be Burmese, especially if you're of a certain age, to be afraid from bitter experience. It's a low level visceral feeling most of the time, but sometimes, like now, it can be overwhelming. Because all the worst things that you can imagine that could happen to you or your loved ones can happen and has happened to you or to people, you know, because of the Burmese military. Right now, I don't even want to eat, let alone cook anything. There's a reason that Aung San su Chi, his most famous book is called freedom from fear. So that's what you wrote. I'm curious what was kind of in your mind as you wrote that, and as you formulated those ideas? What was it?

MiMi Aye  28:45

I think the main thing that was in my mind is that I think people see things as very black and white. I think people, they tend to just see an incident happens. And they see that a coup has happened. And they don't know anything about the history. And they don't know anything about the people of that country. And so they just think, oh, there's some kind of unrest happening in that part of the world. And I think I was just trying to, I was just trying to reveal a little part of, at least for a lot of people in Burma, a lot of people of a certain generation, something that is actually part of our psyche. The fact that you know, there has been a military dictatorship of some form for like 4040 years, and then there was a civilian government, but then in the civilian government, the Constitution tie in the military still had significant control. And so it's, it's a it's a world that many of us either grew up in so my own family would have grown up on it, or I kind of grew up adjacent to it. But because I went back to Obama so often, I saw parts of it. I saw how my family where I saw how my mom and dad are when they go back and It's kind of, it's a really odd, disconnected thing, because obviously, every trip home was very, very joyful. Because I was seeing my family, I was hanging out with them, I was getting to eat lovely food and go to lovely places. But, you know, we had this thing where, like, we would get shadowed by military intelligence when we were out there. So you'd see plainclothes officers, you know, to it, we've got very office, you could see them following you. And you'd have things where, you know, when I got older, I am I qualified as a lawyer. And, you know, my family said, don't tell people, you're a lawyer, you know, that kind of thing. And now, you weren't allowed to talk to journalists, and you know, you couldn't do this and that, so it was like, you could you could live a life, but it wasn't free. And it wasn't like, and then you'd have these things where people would just disappear. Right, you know, and it was a, it was a very, very strange world and a strange life. And as I said, Everyone had this fear, but it was a fear that you had to deal with and you had to live with, because there wasn't anything else.

Host  31:04

Right. And so even when the country was opening up, from what you were writing, it sounds like that fear was still at a low level, still kind of present and latent. And

MiMi Aye  31:16

somewhere, to like, like I said, I'm a lawyer, and I read the Constitution and the Constitution. I mean, I think most people know that the constitution barred LCG, from becoming president. That's why they created the Office of State Councilor. But there are other very interesting clauses in their articles in there. And you know, and one, one of them is the one that said, basically, the military is kind of like the fifth branch of government. And it can administer anything it wants, really. And in the civilians don't have power over them. And then obviously, also the fact that if there was a state of emergency, they can do whatever they like, and that's exactly what's happened. They declared a state of emergency, and then they invoked an article that revoked the Human Rights articles, which apply to you know, right to privacy, right to home life, you know, right to family. So, there was always the sense that, you know, I can't remember the phrase, but we're waiting for the other shoe to drop, you know, we knew that this was not I see. Something, something was gonna happen at some point sooner or later, basically, because the constitution had been drafted in this way.

Host  32:35

So this was like, like, what happened this month is kind of like a trigger of all of this past trauma and crisis that many Burmese people have been living with their whole lives.

MiMi Aye  32:44

Yeah. So I mean, I have a lot of friends and family who were a lot younger than I am. So they don't remember 1988. And a lot of them have have been around have been kind of socially active have been their own people, since the civilian government came in in 2010. And so they've had like that taste of democracy. And so for them, I think it was genuinely a shock that this because everything else was just legend. Right. But as I said, for people, older people like me, I'm 42. It was, you know, it's not like we wanted to say I told you so. But it was very much getting really bad deja vu.

Host  33:32

Yeah. So that piece that you wrote you, I should say that on your platform you've been sharing, you've been really active, like so many of us out there that have completely turned your platform over your platforms over to this issue, and are just sharing news and information and thoughts and other things. This is the only post I've seen of yours. Maybe there's been others that have really hit upon the personal and in a very direct and vulnerable way. Did I know it affected me and I responded to you privately with it. Did you get a response from others without it,

MiMi Aye  34:01

I get a lot over I had a lot of people sharing it. So for a lot of people, they were showing it because they had this exact same fears. But for a lot of people and this actually made me it was quite heartbreaking.  A lot of people messaged me that, that their mums and dads have told them these things, and they had forever because it was their mums and dads. They just thought they were exaggerating. And they thought they'd never believed it. But to see me like an objective third party, right? voicing those same sorts of fears, terrified them and made them realize that their mums and dads hadn't been making it up. And so like I said, it was kind of heartbreaking because they actually thanked me because it said that they said that it made them feel more connected to their parents as a result. You know, so yeah, that was that was kind of that was odd. That was quite odd.

Host  34:56

Right? Right. Well, I just I think these kinds of conversations sharings are so important right now because on one hand, you have the political and then the national news and the events that are unfolding and everything else. But it's so important to remember that these aren't just things happening outside. These are things that are having an enormous personal impact, that are not just happening now at the moment within someone, but that are connected to years and years of suppression and trauma that people outside who aren't familiar with it might not really understand the depth of

MiMi Aye  35:27

Yeah, I mean, I did share another thing that was kind of quite bizarre, and that was the fact we touched on it already. But the fact that because there was a system, a military informers, which is still alive and kicking, it meant that you were kind of you had to be careful what you said, you know, and that also kind of went into the whole being afraid thing. And so even saying the word for government was something you didn't want to say. If he was like, Sal, Ron, or Voldemort, you know? It's just the width of government. You should be scared to say that. But you were and you didn't ever say it. So yeah, it's just just, it's a very odd, very odd existence. And it's almost, because the other thing that I mentioned, the other thing that I wrote about was the fact that it's it is kind of Burma's a nation that was gaslit for decades. By which I mean, just in the press, select the official newspaper, new light of Myanmar, had all these slogans on a daily basis, saying that, you know, the Dumbledore's military was like for the people and anyone else was like a threat to the nation. And it went through a long phase of saying like VOA Voice of America and BBC were fake news before Donald Trump said the word fake news. And, and then, like, even going about your daily business, there were these massive billboards with the same slogans saying that the dot model will crush any enemy to your friend, you know, like massive Big Red boards, and everywhere, everywhere. And there's

Host  37:11

books it was printed in.

MiMi Aye  37:14

Newspaper movies, yeah, yeah. You couldn't get away from these. And they're not, you know, it's not like there was subliminal blaring out to you. So it was kind of a weird thing, because like I said, it's like they were just gaslighting the nation for decades. And again, that's something that I think the whole nation must suffer some kind of trauma because of it.

Host  37:41

Yeah, absolutely. Actually, just an aside, but it made me remember one of the, those big billboards right in downtown like near LA, like with the bridge that, that that's going north from LA, there was a big one there. And when the opening started to happen around 2012, or something, I remember one day walking down there, and it was like that, that sign and then the billboard was still up at the sign up and down. And I came back a month later. And I was I was stunned into paralysis to see that that billboard had been taken over by Coca Cola. Like, how symbolic is this? And it was like, it was so stunning. I'd never seen any Western product anywhere in Myanmar at that point, because it was all closed. I mean, Coca Cola was kind of a luxury fancy, imported gift, and it was like this, this is really showing the, you know, from dictatorship to commercialism

MiMi Aye  38:33

to like KFC coming in, and suddenly being everywhere. And the other thing that slipped my mind now. Okay, you'll probably come back to me. Yeah, so yeah, I know that the fact that these things were kind of changing overnight, oh, that's what I was gonna say. So, um, so you know, saying about how like, these slogans are printed in all the newspapers. So it kind of it kind of went away for a little bit, right. But then, a friend of mine messaged me just yesterday and said, oh, I've started again. And she sent me the latest version in the new light of Myanmar. And if anything, it's more verbose than the old version. Like I can barely work out what it's trying to say. All this kind of weird government speak to sit mess with your mind and

Host  39:24

but this is the interesting thing is this is Generation Z. This is a highly intercut interconnected generation, whether it's you know, tick tock or gaming or Facebook or like whatever, whatever the type of online communities that are being created, like there's been almost a decade of those kind of connections. And so it's so to go from what I was thinking when you said five minutes ago how you know, so yeah, government was a word you couldn't even say in public. Yeah, I remember those days. I remember. I remember one time being with a foreigner who had just come in we are at a night market. And we were chatting in the middle of our chat. He just said something About, he said the word Aung San su Chi in the middle of the conversation. And I just I freaked out. I mean, I went like numb from top to bottom, I looked around, I realized I couldn't tell him, you know, I couldn't call him out. So I just was kind of like, hey, so are you done with your meal, like maybe, like, not just changing the subject, but like, let's move and start to walk him, you know, so like to go from that to Generation Z, where it's like, every, I mean, seemingly, every single person is like sharing publicly videos name profile photo, like,

MiMi Aye  40:31

I remember in 2012. I remember. I was in Boise, and I noticed that they had like calendars of Alison's. Right. And I was like, yeah, you know, my, in my family, they had photos of Ansel, and he didn't they were hidden. They were in cupboards, you know. You were terrified that anyone would find them. You couldn't do that to people selling on a market stall?

Host  41:01

That's right. I mean, you couldn't say her name in public. You knew that where her house was located. You couldn't even really walk around there. Yeah.

MiMi Aye  41:08

And then we drove down there once and I can't remember. I can't remember what it was. But I was told that I had to hide around the car. So I crouched down in the footwell of the car. And I think maybe I was just wasn't meant to be. But it was because we were driving down the road. Yeah, that was that was quick.

Host  41:28

Yeah, right. So you wrote this piece that I quoted, I don't know, maybe about two weeks ago, a week and a half or something. And I know I don't know about for you. For me, it seems like every day is a year in terms of what develops, what happens outside and kind of people as well as the internal, you know, formulation and recalibration. So where are you at, in terms of what you wrote a week and a half, two weeks ago? Where Where do you now sit with that? What what's going on

MiMi Aye  41:53

now? I'm kind of I'm still scared, but it's a different type of scared. Because the type of scare that I had then was the type of scared that might be not say anything, not want to say anything. because like you said, I still had that thing that the hangover worrying about saying, say anything anti government would get me and my family in trouble. And I kind of got to the point where I'm a bit To hell with it. Because if we don't do something, those of us that have a platform that have the connectivity, don't do something, but this is just going to continue. And you know, this needs to be the last generation that suffers like this. So yeah, there's still the fear, but it's kind of a no, it's not a cowardly fear anymore. Because I guess I think it was cowardly. And I don't mean so much. I was afraid for myself it was more for for everyone else that might be affected. Is the not wanting to speak out not wanting to, to bring attention. I think more it's the you know, to hell with it. We're all in this together.

Host  43:00

Well, there's been a momentum, there's definitely been a momentum shift I've been feeling in the past few weeks. I've just more and more piling on to what this movement means. Well, I

MiMi Aye  43:09

mean, you know, that's, I think the massively groundbreaking moment was when Jomo Tong Yes, the the UN General Assembly basically defected live. That was just shocking. But it was also the first time that I felt hope. Because Because I'm older, because I remember 9088 I, until that point, I just been thinking, Oh, god, this is gonna end the same way, you know, they're just gonna because the outside world won't know or do enough and the minute they're gonna lose their patience, and they're just gonna open fire and just mow everyone down. But the fact that someone was a, you know, prepared to do that, that Nina and I, who's his family already receiving death threats, which is lovely, the classic being accused of being a traitor now.

Host  44:04

So you know, he's he took an enormous risk doing that, but that risk gave hope to all of us. Right, and it didn't just give hope, but it actually created a pathway for others to do the same. I think that and that's the momentum comes 24 hours after he did that, a monk of some standing, got in touch with me and wrote a very, very direct and impactful, open letter. It's anonymous for a safety, but it's a it's a beautiful letter of him of on one hand, and this is a very apolitical monk. So on one hand, he's respecting the renunciation vows that he took in not involving himself in directing directing worldly affairs and just wanting to protest or something, but he's also using his moral authority to be able to to speak on this and so I you know, seen like the the ambassador, speak at the UN and his and the effects that that he had and then, you know, a day later having this this this monk want to use, apply form to speak. And then just has me thinking like, Well, can this start to evolve into creating space in small ways and big and different sectors of society for more and more to start to say, Okay, now I'm in as you've talked about using your platform, it's definitely a decision I've made with my platform, to want to, to, to make to take that that risk and step up and then create that space for others to similarly do the same.

MiMi Aye  45:24

Yeah, definitely. It's the snowball effect. Right? You, you see other people who are willing to do that, then you feel like well, I feel like I should do that, too. So yeah, you're right. It's not just a case of hope. It's a case of giving people courage. Right?

Host  45:42

Right, showing the way forward. Yeah. So the the, that quotation I read of yours, you had mentioned how many Burmese people got in touch with you, thanking you younger people, especially because it gave them insight into their family and their background? Did you get any other reaction from foreigners or people that through your writing allowed them to understand what you and others like you were going through? On a personal level?

MiMi Aye  46:04

Yes, yeah, I did get a few people, some, some were friends of mine. Quite, they were quite disconcerted. Because I, I'm generally known as someone who's quite cheerful, I guess, not someone that they would have ever thought of as being afraid. And of course, the other thing is that I'm also known as more of a low level person, but I'm kind of an activist for kind of issues in this country in the UK as well. I do a lot of anti racist work. And so they kind of knew that, I think they really saw me as being cheerful and confident. And the fact that I wrote that, I think, freaked them out a bit. And said that those are people that I actually knew. But I also have strangers, telling me that this kind of explained some stuff to them, because they were familiar with people from Burma. And it kind of it was like a jigsaw piece falling into a row. And then they kind of thanked me for that and said, you know, it's obviously not something that they would want to ask their friend about. But stuff that didn't make sense before it makes sense now.

Host  47:20

Yeah, and there has been, you know, it is a culture understandably, with suppression. So a lot of this trauma has not properly been processed. And it's almost making me feel like this moment, I the suppression I've seen in other moments, I wonder if that the lid is coming off that a little bit in terms of not feeling like one has to suppress things now and allowing it to come out.

MiMi Aye  47:43

I think, as you say, it's a situation where people are kind of in it, they've had enough. And I think a lot a lot of the suppression, I think was unconscious for a lot of people. But for a lot of people it was conscious. But whatever, whatever was causing them to keep quiet. I think there's a release happening right now. And I think it's, I think it's a positive thing.

Host  48:10

Right, and so on that topic of like, foreigners trying to or your statement that you said allowed foreigners to to have a better understanding of what is going on with you and with with other armies that are responding to this. You know, Myanmar has been a country that's been I would say, has been quite poorly understood over the years. Historically, it's kind of gotten forgotten somewhere between China and India in terms of Western interests, it's always been kind of an extension of how they've looked at those countries more of a strategic place than something in its own right. And then with the country being closed for so many years, I felt like there were these catchphrases or superficial descriptions that tended to be used to encapsulate the country without really a lot of introspection or follow up. But in the last 10 years, with the opening, there definitely has been a bit more digging into, you know, some good pieces and some, some perspectives that have been a bit more nuanced than I've seen before. But now, at this time, more than ever, I think people are really trying to understand the country to be able to better understand the crisis playing out. So I'm curious, you know, you as a native Burmese is living in the West, I'm sure you've been called to introduce and describe your culture countless times to people that haven't been exposed to it. And with all the coverage going on today, and even after the recent years of openness, what do you find is still missing in trying to understand trying to understand the country, the people the culture.

49:43

And

MiMi Aye  49:45

this is a terrible thing to say, but there's been like two very small silver linings to all of this nightmare happening. And I think it's that there's been some kind of it's like there's been some attempt to to negate perceptions of the country that had been floating around for a long time, okay. And I think so one of them, the major one for me, I think, is the fact that there has been for probably the last 15 years or so, a very strong narrative in the West that the women in Burma are very submissive, like they need saving has been the thing I remember. The probably about 15 years ago, I remember reading an article talking about how there was gonna be a charity for kind of saving the women of some downtrodden country, you know, how the way that these ads are often run, very patronizing. And I thought, Oh, God, who are they trying to save now? And I looked at it, and it said it was because I was just so furious that this weird thing it's been said about us, and I think it was it was a very high profile charity, I think elton john was one of the Patreon. It was just one of the things where they're like, Oh, yeah, this isn't the next on our list of people to save. And this narrative has become really entrenched into the media over here. And I've had a whole bunch of arguments with Western journalists because of it. So I don't know if I can say this on your podcast. But I had quite a long time there was this thing going around where they were saying that there was no Burmese word for vagina. And this isn't that this was just symptomatic of, of emblematic of how this meant we were downtrodden. Because we didn't even have the vocabulary to describe our, you know, our organs. And I was so angry about this. There was in the several newspapers, I'm so angry about this, I wrote to the editors of this paper. And I said, Yeah, this is not true. And here's, here's a photocopy of a dictionary entry, if that helps. And here are five other words that I know. And that's incredible. This is this is just the kind of thing that doesn't help you do it. Well, why use something that's not true, to make a point, which I also don't think is true. And he got very angry with me back and they said, Oh, well, we spoke to an expert in Burmese language. And I wrote back and said, Did you speak to a Burmese woman?

Host  52:19

Right? What What, what I'm curious one was this, because a couple years ago, big headlines with the Vagina Monologues came to Yangon. And we're in we're in the East when they did it in Burmese. Well, that was a that was a big deal. I mean, I remember I don't remember the words because I don't like my, my, limited my vocabulary, but they, they, I just remember reading the article and talking about the range of words that they were presenting and the range of meanings and implications behind them. And so the whole, I didn't go to the, to the, to the event, but in reading about it, it was like the whole purpose of it was to bring awareness and, and bring this out of the out of the closet and being able to talk openly about just this range of meanings and everything else. So it's incredible that you have an event taking place in Yangon a couple years ago that's actually talking about this in a very open and progressive way and digging into all the different implications of it. And then you have a newspaper in England that saying that there's no word that exists at all, when this event is giving 15 different words and all their shades of meaning.

MiMi Aye  53:28

said that this was pretty at 2012. So a while ago, right, right. So that, you know, still recent memory. And then there was another article again, and it was talking about how your women are oppressed in Burma. And it was saying about how the woman that was being interviewed was very rare because she had she had a motorbike and it said she had a motorbike hang on what, you know, my family's from Mandalay. Most of the people are women.

Host  53:56

Right. Yeah,

MiMi Aye  53:58

it's amazing at Google image search woman on motor scene in Mandalay.

Host  54:05

Right, right.

MiMi Aye  54:09

This this kind of strange narrative that they're peddling and

Host  54:13

it's just yeah, it's incredible to me that Sorry, go ahead.

MiMi Aye  54:16

I was just gonna say it's  so what's happened with all these protests obviously been very, very prominent in the media. And people are saying that they're being led by women and not just young women this old women. I've seen this video that was going around of the aunty, the grandmother who was you know, blasting the military and the soldiers and saying you can take me away if you like. Yeah, it's like it's not even that generations z is brave and not oppressed. Right? You know, Burmese women are bloody minded. We always have been.

Host  54:49

You're hitting back at this narrative or stereotype of Burmese woman being demure and kind of needing saving. If this is not true, how would you push back against a more authentic view?

MiMi Aye  55:12

Well, I mean, just like I said, look at what's happening now, the people who are organizing the protests, the people that organized the protest, they're all women. It says not just the people who are organizing the food parcels is the people that are coming up with the ideas of how to protest, the people that are drawing up the poster campaigns, that people that are the kind of social media and memes, all of these things. It's all women, young women doing that. I've seen people saying that they're really shocked and surprised to see, the women are in front.  And I'm like, this is just the truth. You know, it's even even on a simple day to day basis, the fact that someone told me, he said to me that they had always heard read, the Burmese women have kept behind closed doors. And then they visited. And, and they've been around to lots of other countries in the area as well. And they were very surprised, because they said like, for example, if you go to India, if you go to the markets, or the market holders are still small holders, and then everyone in the shops, men, all that kind of any any shop, you go into any staff, any hotel, it's all run by men. And then if you go into Burma, there are no meant to be. It's mainly women kind of do all of this stuff. And and they were quite struck by that. And they just say, well, where are the men, and I went in doing their own thing. But on a day to day basis, it is the women that you will see out there. And in fact, one of the things that a friend of mine said was really noticeable. But after the after the coup, what changed because you know, people still have the habit of going out to the market every day getting their food. What changed was the markets were instead of being empty, they were packed. And the reason they were packed was because men were now there with the women protect them. They were worried that something would happen. So so she was quite annoyed and said it's actually a lot busier than

Host  57:12

well, interesting. Is there anything else you find that in this, especially in this present moment that there's there's like a missing puzzle piece or something that is not quite being understood in mainstream outside of Myanmar.

MiMi Aye  57:23

So the one one thing that is very controversial, you might have to cut this. But the one thing that I really, really hate in this country in particular, is that they have pitched What happened? What's been happening with the Rohingya as the genocide. They've been pitching it as a religious issue, rather than an ethnic issue, which is what it is, is ethnic cleansing. But the picture over here, every news article, you read, everything you read, says that basically, the story, the line is butter bomber is a Buddhist country, and they all hate Muslims. And this is why the Rohingya have been massacred, because they hate Muslims. And this is very upsetting, because, you know, it like you said, it's absolutely horrific what has been happening to the Rohingya, but it is a, you know, from everything I can tell it is very clear case of ethnic cleansing. It is not a religious issue. And because they frame it as a religious issue. It endangers the actual, that not at all. So but it endangers all Muslims within Burma. Right? And, oh, you know, well integrated. I have many I've met many Muslims in my own family. And so to be told repeatedly, that Burmese people, and I've been told that so you know, I've been doing obviously, I've been posting a lot and sharing a lot. I've had people saying to me, Burma deserves this because you hate Muslims. And I just hate I just hate that because it isn't, you know, we don't hate Muslims. We really don't. So this is what I mean about how you might call this. But this is something that's been really upsetting me because I've been getting letters on a daily basis, I've been getting a piece from people saying that that's terrible, the same this is karma. This is all because because we destroy we destroy Muslim people. We so you know, kind of related that this what the thing that I have been noting, which is very heartbreaking and heartwarming at the same time, is the fact that you know, there are hinges outside of Burma, the ones in the camps, the ones still within Burma have been you know, protesting in solidarity. Yes. Right. You know, and you know, and the reason is, is because we have a common enemy who is the military, you know, and and life is not going to be good for anybody. If we leave it stays the way it is. And that's why they they have come out to be you know, to support everybody because they are you know, they're part of Burma. They are they are part of us. And the fact that, like I said, it's the fact that they are coming out. Again, that's been shocking people. I've actually had, I've seen like people from Reuters having to put out statements saying, it is not true that the Rohingya is like, a proof of the coup, it is not true that they support the military. And this is shocking to say, so please stop saying that they wish this on the people of Burma, they are part of the people of Burma. And they know that that's the issue. They are part of the people of Burma. So they are suffering, in the same way this seeing other people suffer, it hurts them as well. And it's very, it's very, very sad that the military was so successful in their kind of propaganda campaign against the Rohingya, to the extent that, you know, many people within Burma did believe that they weren't part of the country. When the you know, the truth is, they're just as much right to be there as any ethnic group, and God knows we've got so many over 135. So you know, that the fact that it is it is confusing people who are thinking why their hinges supporting the people above? And it's like, because they're part of the people of Burma, don't you get it? Right.

Host  1:01:08

Right. And then just just as you're talking about the reflection on that side, I think, just as important as looking at the reflection on the bar side, and that there's this incredible transformation going on among at least some people and happening very publicly, where Bomar who maybe were silent before or maybe even held a certain antagonistic position before are now going through and kind of internal recognition, and and then sharing it publicly of, you know, of how they were wrong and apologizing. I mean, there's the famous picture of the Burmese guy in the middle of traffic holding a sign that just says I really regret about what happened with

MiMi Aye  1:01:46

forgive us.

Host  1:01:48

Right. Right. And I think that that's so like, when you're getting those comments, those abusive comments from people, I think like this is this is something that comes to mind for me is that we always have to be ready as people and as humans to be able to make room for someone admitting they're wrong, someone taking steps to move beyond that someone able to own that and take responsibility and want to do what's necessary to heal. Because if we don't make room for that, no matter what someone has done, if we don't give someone the chance to have that genuine reflection and healing, then, I mean, you can forget anything like that you can't move from anywhere, if you can't try to welcome someone from going through that kind of authentic process. Yeah.

MiMi Aye  1:02:28

I mean, I think it's because the other thing is also it's kind of part of a whole gaslighting thing that the military has been so good at the fact that they had there has been a relentless campaign to paint them as intruders, right. So very differently from all the other ethnic groups in Burma. They have been painted as the Bengalis, the invaders, right. And so, and this propaganda campaign, unfortunately, worked on a lot of Burma, you know, and a lot of not just the Burma a lot of other people believed it I I get to I get to be rude about all the ethnicities because I'm a mix myself. But in between there they were there were other people that believe these lies that were told the promulgated by the military. And so, and then obviously, I didn't know Alsace, which is shameful defense in the ICJ that was, that was I was, I was so disappointed, as was, you know, everybody outside the world. That's why she fell from grace. Right. And I, you know, I've no idea what was going through her mind when she did that. And but unfortunately, it kind of cemented for a lot of people that it was right, and the military, the military, downplaying what was happening was true, because that's the thing. They weren't just painting them. as, you know, intruders. They were also kind of saying, Oh, it's not true that we massacring them. And they're all fine, you know. And so you're being kind of pumped with this fake news over and over again. And so you have people who are you know, they're not speaking because that's the thing that that was that there's been a lot of people say, why did you not speak out for the Rangers? Why you're only speaking out now. And it's, and it's partly I think, for probably for a significant number of people. It is because of this campaign that basically made them believe that Rohingya were their enemy when they're not. But it's, but it's also we're going back to the fear thing, because I think for a lot of people who dis empathize, they were too scared to say they sympathize. So I've seen examples. I see. there's a there's a guy who has just confessed that he, and this is so sad. He went and made a documentary. He went and stayed in the Rohingya camps, and he talked to them and interviewed them. And he realized that, you know, everything was true. You know, everything you'd heard was true. And he made this documentary, but then he was too scared to do know what to do with it. And so he's been hiding this documentary and then he posted on Twitter, I think recently say, I'm gonna release this documentary. And I was too scared to do so before but I'm gonna release it because People need to know the truth.

Host  1:05:02

This this is that's why when

MiMi Aye  1:05:04

I think it might be I can't actually remember they probably, I don't know how many people would have gone undercover in a documentary. It says possibly it's probably the same same guy. But But yeah, he again said that he was he was ashamed because he had never said anything. Even though he'd he'd gone to that length to try and tell this story. But he was still too scared, he had still been too scared to do anything with this material with this footage until now.

Host  1:05:31

Right. And I think there was also this uncomfortable dynamic that even I felt were like, the way the Western media started to portray this, they were kind of putting in as the wedge issue, which is a very kind of uncomfortable way to frame it as the Buddhist Sangha and, and, and you know, the Time magazine at that famous head, I just I cringed when I saw it, I still remember where and when I was when I saw this have this cover. That was like the it was the face of Buddhist terror. And it

1:05:59

shows.

Host  1:06:01

Right, right. Right. And and, and as not to say that that's not correct, or they don't have the right to do that. But that framing of it, as if you're a devout lay Burmese Buddhists, part of the Burmese Buddhist community. And you see a non Buddhist, foreign, non monastic criticizing in this way, it immediately brings back these kind of imperialist overtones and this inferior position of Buddhism. And so I think the way that was framed from the beginning just kind of encouraged a defensive stance of the Sangha. And even those people that wanted to speak out against it, it was this uncomfortable position of kind of like, speaking out, taking steps to speak out, you had to somehow do it in such a way that was clear that you were not going against overall Sangha, or the value of the monkhood or the Buddhist religion, because these dynamics were already in place that just made everything so uncomfortable. So, you know, so one of the things I've seen in the past few weeks is, is more people speaking out. And both monks as well as ladies from the Burmese Buddhist community. And I think some of those in hearing how they're framing it, I think some of those people are actually recalibrating, and going through an internal transformation. And as mentioned before, and others, I think, have actually held these views for quite some time, and have just, it's just been very difficult to know how and where they're able to get them out. So, you know, I think they're, they're just there is this this opening? I mean, as you mentioned, there's there actually are some silver linings from this terrible event happening. And it's very small. Yeah, but who knows, you know, Nargis was a Cyclone Nargis in 2009. I think it was maybe a day wrong. Eight. Can't remember. That was, you know, that was a, that was an absolute tragedy. That was,

MiMi Aye  1:07:54

I know exactly what it was. The reason I know exactly when it was, is because the military pushed through the neutral institution in the wake of it. And they did that deliberately, because basically, the country was already traumatized, and they just went write new legislation. It was 2008 2008.

Host  1:08:12

So that, but that's, that's a this terrible tragedy that happens that actually spawns this flowering of civil society because of it. So, you know, there are these, there are these events that can I can have offshoots, in ways that, that, that that are that are positive in their own right,

MiMi Aye  1:08:29

yeah, yeah, that's true. It's good a Buddhist thing to do is

Host  1:08:37

it's all you can do in these kind of situations. So looking back, overall, where we are now, like, at this moment, and at this this movement, what would you say has been something that has surprised you the most about how things have played out? And

MiMi Aye  1:08:55

really bad, but I'm surprised they haven't started shooting sooner. Again, I think that was just like, my horrible PTSD even though I wasn't actually in the thick of it. And, and they actually the other thing that surprised me and I guess this whole goes back to the whole we mess with the wrong generation thing is the fact that the civil disobedience movement has been so creative and functional, but I don't seem to have known how to deal with it. So you know, people marching and shouting, protests, logos, slogans, and you know, small acts of violence they can quash, they can call it civil unrest, right. They feel like they can open fire with no, you know, compunction, but but people pretending their cars have broken down. Drag Queens, down the road and the beautiful rails or people throwing onions on the, you know, on the freeway. They don't know what to do. And it's been it's been really it's been really good to

1:09:57

watch.

MiMi Aye  1:09:58

Yeah. You know, sounds bad, but like, as an observer, I'm just enthralled by what they come up with and what happens next. And then obviously, the other thing is like, you know, making huge murals using like a

1:10:11

whole Township.

MiMi Aye  1:10:13

You know, spelling out the words we want democracy, or CDM logo, you know, it's crazy. And again, as you say, so it was a to me, they said they saw the CDM plan, and it was at the bottom of, I can't remember which PR was it was the one you might know the one that's very square, the Golden One is very square, and that'll be very terrible. But basically, there was a there was a human formation that says CDM bogen. underneath it. And those my friends were commenting, saying, that is the neatest writing ever. Call that see so perfectly. Burmese efficiency deficiency.

Host  1:11:00

Yeah, when you talk about that kind of innovativeness, the thing all those things you mentioned really struck me as well. And one of the things that really astounded me God, I just I just so amazed at the process I went through and understanding how this played out. So there was a video a few days ago, I don't know if you saw it, it was like a two minute video of what appeared to be a soldier showing his weapon and saying in you know, I'm going to go out in the streets and at eight o'clock pm and start shooting people, if you want to be a martyr than being your pot, because I'm going to aim for the head and yeah, so. Right. So when I saw that the first time, I was kind of paralyzed, it was kind of like another one of those other things that was just like, Oh, geez, like I was thinking about all my friends and about the fear, this instills and was just really freaked out and disgusted and horrified and watching this, and you're really tapped into my triggers of the terror that could come. So I'm just kind of processing this during the day. And then I go online, like another like, I don't know, a day later. And I see this is so I don't know, if you saw this, it's so incredible. So someone with some Burmese with tech savvy had like, watch that video really carefully. And it showed how like in that vid in that two minute video, there were like five points in the video where the person behind the camera was telling him what to do. And he paused those scenes, he paused them and he replayed them back like five or six times. So you could hear he was like, like, as he's putting the gun together, you can hear the guy in the background, he's translating it, you know, he's putting subtitles on the screen. He's saying Okay, so at this point, the guy behind the camera is saying, Now turn the gun on the other side. So they see the back of it. And he's kind of whispering that. And then you'll see the guy holding the gun, then turn it around, like just following the directions or like as he's saying something you might say like, you know, we're going to, you know that another thing was like, we're you know, because now like, you know, rule like five, three fours and a factor or whatever it was, and then you hear the guy whisper, they won't know what that means you need to say martial law. And so Exactly, so he's so this is like, so he is taking. So it's like this amazing moment of like, this trick that the military is trying to do to instill fear that actually isn't, it's not an organic video that is, is actually going to happen. But it's which is the effect it had on me. But he's taking all of those layers off to show this is a scared and very inefficient and very, very right being put into and when you watch it again, with those in mind, and one commentator, even put that in the video. Like this is not a soldier who's actually going to do this. This is kind of a pudgy actor who doesn't know his lines, and is just trying to put this energy out there. And so it's like, but when you really step back and look at this whole process, it was like this is a video put together for propaganda by people who don't know, nearly enough about multimedia as the audience is intended for because the audience just picked apart everything that was wrong with that video.

MiMi Aye  1:13:57

That's the thing. I mean, that's the thing. They are outclassed on that. Yeah, completely. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's something that they did, they've messed with the wrong generation. And I really hope that you know, even even this weekend that they may be mobilizing the milk tea Alliance, but in an in a in a couple of days, like you've got people protesting in Thailand, and you know, in front of the Burmese embassy, they're just, I think some of them got arrested. And it's just the solidarity just somehow just done it in a matter of days. And it's because they are so you know, online, they understand how to communicate, even though the internet's being shut down every night, you know.

Host  1:14:45

And that was the thing when you looked at these at 1807. There were times there were nights where like, you know, dozens of people sometimes hundreds got arrested or killed and even people in the country didn't know about it until days or weeks later. Now When you have one death, that person is, is celebrated and honor the next day. I mean, you are seeing their biography, their background, sometimes you're seeing the moments before, during and even after the death. So you're humanizing these individual people in ways that were never able to be done before.

MiMi Aye  1:15:17

And it's so important because, you know, it's the whole thing. You know, one death is a tragedy. A lot of deaths are a statistic, we recommend them become statistics. Right. Right. So yeah, and the fact that the first two deaths would pretty much children as well, it's just, yeah. It is really important. But either that's the thing and let it be the thing that even if the even if the military do think they can do whatever they like, they're being filmed constantly. They can't do anything without someone seeing what they're up to, even if they are shutting down the internet. Because as soon as people get back online, that thing's been uploaded. And there's other ways now to get things out. Yeah, yeah, they're all so it's kind of extraordinary. I mean, even like, after like day, two or three of the coup, they went, Okay, well, Facebook is the internet for Burma, we're gonna shut down Facebook. And so they did. And then absolutely everyone, you know, including everyone's, like old aunties and uncles downloaded a VPN. Like, everyone was back on Facebook. You know, that's why the military went, Okay, the mall shut down the whole internet. It's kind of every time they try to do something, so far, everyone else has been able to keep ahead of the game. Right. Right. And long way that continue? Right. I have to believe that, you know, like, Joe Mottola said, you know that the revolution must succeed, right.

Host  1:16:52

Yeah. And looking back over this month, what would you say is touched you the most?

MiMi Aye  1:17:00

I think what's touched me is probably the fact that even though I remember from the papers and the TV footage at the time, what happened in the previous kind of uprisings, the fact that I'm getting to see it almost in real time. And as you say, it's humanizing the faces. The fact that the fact that I'm, this is gonna sound weird, but I feel like the other thing I think I mentioned in that in that in that piece that you quoted, but I've said elsewhere, is that I have an unbearable amount of survivor's guilt. By which I mean, the fact that I don't I don't live in Burma, but the rest of my family do. The fact that I can. I know, I mean, I can't sworn in and out. But you know what I mean, I can leave, right. And they can't, I have, you know, for the past, however many years 30 or so years, I felt very, very guilty about the fact that I can't do more. And the fact that this past month, I have been able to do stuff that has had some kind of positive effect that has seemed to be helping, so that at the moment, what I've done is that a friend of mine, and a friend of mine, who has a much bigger platform than I do on Instagram, he's got almost 20,000 followers, I've only got five. He's also got a very different audience from mine. My thing is to swit mice, my father's kind of Burmese interested in Burmese stuff already. So here's his like, completely new platform. He gave over his stories to me this weekend. So what I've been doing is I've actually got a comic because I've been posting, because he wanted me to kind of update his audience and what's happening in Burma right now. So it's, you know, the whole hashtag what's happening in Myanmar, right. And I decided to use the platform to explain what's happening now, but also how we got to this stage. And so late yesterday, I posted basically a history lesson. It's like 40 stories explaining the troubled past of the country. And the fact that, you know, we've been under military rule of some sort for a very, very long time. The fact that the whole nation is traumatized and has been ghastly all this time. And again, it he we've both been getting messages from people either from Burmese people who are either grateful that their story is finally being told because they've been too scared to say it themselves, or from people who never really understood because if you're in Burma itself, you don't get taught. And, and, and that is a way that I've been able to use my privilege, insofar as because I don't live there. I have access to resources that they do not. And so I you know, I can post links, I can post stories I have grown up knowing about things that they haven't been allowed to know because they grew up in Burma. And so and also the fact that because I'm bilingual, I can also I also have two sets of resources to draw from, but it means that I've been able to To paint a full picture for a lot of different groups of people. And it's been, it's been quite upsetting for me, because I've been posting all of this, I'd be thinking, Oh, god, I'm really living late because a lot of personal stuff. So I posted about how like some of my family's in political prisoners posted about how one of my uncle's died because of treatment he received when he'd been in prison. So there's all this stuff that's coming out of the woodwork for me as well. But it's been very, I think it's been very helpful just for informational purposes, as well as kind of cathartic, and not just for me, but for people that are reading for the people that have been reading. So So that's something that I've been doing this weekend. And, and that has been quite, I don't want to say rewarding, because, but you know what I mean, I feel like I'm finally being useful in a way that I've not felt useful before.

Host  1:20:55

I can understand. Yeah, so that does bring up a point of you mentioned how a number of foreigners are being able to tap into what you're saying, and have a better understanding and start to be concerned. I think a lot of foreigners who are outside the country, but either connected to it for one reason or another or just caring about people that are suffering. So unnecessarily right now, that there is this sense of like, what can I do and whatever limitations I have, if I could do something I want to what can I say? I'm sure people ask you that too. What is your response? When you hear that?

MiMi Aye  1:21:28

I have a link tree in my biography on all of the social media platforms, and it has basically about six or seven actions that people can do are great. There's a number of different petitions as a petition asking governments to basically recognize and honor the election results. There's another one asking that the ICJ basically investigate men outlines war crimes, there are various templates that people can write to their representatives to put pressure on them, there is a list of the dirty list, which is like companies, international companies that have military links. And there's like just a news feed so that people can actually just keep up to date with what's happening. Um, so so there's just like a list of six or seven actions that people can do so that they can feel useful. And you know, and not feel like they're just watching and not being able to help because you can help, even if it's just clicking a link and sunny on into a petition.

Host  1:22:23

And I think just staying informed is one form of help as well, as well as reaching out and I had, I was talking to a Burmese guy on the front lines of the protest last week. And I when I asked him that question, his answer was just one thing that was so simple, it just said emotional support just said, You can't understand how important it is for us to hear from you as foreigners, like, if we if we just know that you care. And I was really astounded by hearing that because I felt I also felt helpless and felt like I should be doing more. And since he said that, I have been really promoting this message across everyone I'm in contact with. And, you know, I almost think like a campaign of just like encouraging people outside the country that are interested to like, adapt, or adopt. like five to 10 Burmese friends online that you just check in with every day that you just say like,

1:23:13

okay,

Host  1:23:14

yeah, and that and also just like, How are you feeling? What are you doing? What's been going on? I support you. This is where I am. And I because I really was undervaluing the power that can play but that was to him. There was nothing greater than that, that just like we he said, you know, protesting, he said, He's laughing and saying, you know, one of the things you don't really understand, and I didn't either before I did this is protesting is really hard. Like, it's really tiring. It must

MiMi Aye  1:23:40

take so much out of them. Yeah,

Host  1:23:43

yeah. And he said, so we need gas in the tank, you know, we need to keep going. And if we know that, that that we have that your emotional support is behind us. It gives us that gas to keep going. So like, no matter how small it seems here, it's not small there. And in that letter from the monk that we posted yesterday, that was how he ended the letter. He said in the at the end of this letter, he said, You are noticing that in the protests, they are switching from more Burmese slogans to English and they're doing that for the foreign community, to be engaged and to care. And so please care about this, you are the hope you know you are what we need right now. So that's definitely something I would plug and it's so easy to do is just if you have Burmese friends that are over there, you know, talk to them, check in with them daily, let them know that you support them if you don't, Burmese are so friendly and meeting new people and engaging and and it's really easy to just start talking and just you know, meet someone on some some social media platform and just let them know that that you care and you support and when they're having a good day or a hard day, that you're just there to chat with them and that you really can't underestimate how valuable it is.

MiMi Aye  1:24:52

I mean, it's kind of related to that and I've kind of somehow, somehow obviously, I seem to have developed a whole A lot of little brothers and sisters who, who messaged me go Mama, can you you know what's going on? Can you help me? And what is this? This is really heartbreaking. I was I was talking to one of them about something. And then they said to me, I just want you to know, I'm not like police or EMI. I know when I know you're not I can go really bad that you feel like you have to reassure me that you know, you're not an informer. So yeah, but I have adopted lots of little brothers and sisters, which has been really, really nice.

Host  1:25:37

Right? Yeah. So, you know, I know there's so much going on in this month and probably in your own life as well. Is there anything that covering trying to cover and understand this and bring this understanding to more people? Is there anything that I haven't asked about that? that's missing on the conversation you'd like to share?

MiMi Aye  1:25:57

I don't think so. I would say, you know, I mentioned before that I'd taken over someone's Instagram account. So they have actually, they've saved all of the stories on their profile is like, a little kind of icon in their highlights, that is just called me, Omar, I would urge people to just look at that, because I have spent quite a long time documenting A lot of you know, what's behind Burmese history and culture. That kind of explains a lot of what's happening right now. And I think it will help explain a lot of the nuances that people might be missing. So yeah, please, please read, it's got links as well, because that's the other thing because he's got a lot bigger platform than I have, he can actually post links, right inserted links to a lot of Further reading material. So if you see a story and you're thinking, Oh, what is that about? I should have inserted an hyperlink for you to go to an article and read. So it's a very potted history, of course, but it will help I think it will help people understand why what's happening is happening.

Host  1:27:00

And what is the social media account where people can find

MiMi Aye  1:27:02

it? There is a gentleman called Matt inward, Ma, TT underscore I and W od. So he's a friend of mine, who is a, he's actually a as an art director, he worked on my first book, that's how I know him. So So yeah, he's, he's, he's a really, really lovely guy. And his, his feed is normally just beautiful pictures of food. But he felt so moved, actually, by something that I posted the other day that he just contacted me and said, Please, can I pass the mic to you? So that's what he's done. And so, as a result, I've been able to put all these resources together that you can click and look at it. They're not just stories, they're actually clickable. So yeah, please, please go look at that.

Host  1:27:49

Yeah, that's great. And that's really what we need more and more is to help continuing building this momentum opening up spaces where other people can also feel comfortable and have the courage to share from their points of view. And if someone you know, even for people out there that don't necessarily have their own platforms, or involvement in this, just the emotional support, I mean, just to be informed at minimum and to reach out to a few people, even if they're new friends you make online and whatever your social media platform is at your choice that that just that that is giving gas in the tank of these people who are all running on fumes right now.

MiMi Aye  1:28:27

They are. And I just I'm just amazed. I'm just constantly amazed at how they can keep going. And so yeah, like you said, we need to support. We can however we can.

Host  1:28:41

Yeah, every day, there's I don't know how many videos or pictures there are that drive me to or past the brink of tears in terms of what new development is happening, or what new role of courage has taken place or what new terrorist content they're responding to.

MiMi Aye  1:28:55

Either later, just this morning, when they open fire and all the medical students. There's just all these students marching in their white coats, and you just say, oh, how can you do that? How can you do that? It's just unreal. Absolutely unreal.

Host  1:29:09

Yeah. Yeah, it is. There's no, there's no sense I can come from.

MiMi Aye  1:29:15

Thank you. Thank you so much for letting me talk to you. And then yeah, I hope that it helps people understand where we're coming from and how we're all just hoping for a better future for everybody.

Host  1:29:28

So in that case, thank you so much for taking the time to come on here and chat with us. I think this has been really quite valuable and really appreciate it. As a small mostly volunteer team, the production time for a single episode of Insight Myanmar podcast can sometimes be as long as four months from start to finish. More recently, we've tried to increase the speed of this process for special episodes. But the fastest we've been able to manage has been around three weeks. During this current crisis, however, where even a single day can be so urgent, we simply don't have the luxury of waiting so long. We've worked around the clock to shorten this timeframe, and some episodes have managed to turn around of just 36 hours. Similarly, while our previous goal was to produce a podcast once every 10 days, we are now trying to put out episodes as soon as they finish, knowing how valuable it is to get these ideas out there at this critical time. 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