Transcript: Episode 37: Active Days, Restless Nights
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Chit Tun, which appeared on March 2, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
Whether one is listening to this in Myanmar or from outside the country, we know this is a very difficult time for many of us. In trying times like these, we can all use a bit more care and compassion in our lives. So on behalf of the team here in Insight, Myanmar, I would like to say in the traditional way mentor has offered you be free from physical discomfort. May you be free from mental discomfort. May You not be dangerous or enemies. May you live a peaceful and happy life. And May all beings be free to come out of suffering. And with that, let's move to the show.
01:16
Da da da, da
Host 01:30
da. Hey, Ashley, thanks for joining us.
Ashley 01:45
Hi, Joanne, thank you for inviting me. I'm happy to be here.
Host 01:49
Yeah, so really great to welcome you on, as I understand you're a longtime listener, but first time on the other side. And we've been talking quite a bit this month offline, and felt that some of our conversation and interaction I've definitely learned so much from conversations with you and the engagement, and felt that bringing those kind of discussions to a wider audience could be really valuable. And you agreed to come on and share some of your views and background and experience and perspectives on the situation. So this is your first touch with that, and just really warmly welcome you for doing so and greatly appreciate your time for being on.
Ashley 02:30
Thank you so much. Yeah, so I guess I'll share a little bit about myself.
Chit Tun 02:36
Yeah, please. Okay.
Ashley 02:38
So I currently live in Georgia, and I'm originally from Burma, I have been here since I was nine years old. And as I've been watching these things unfold and Newmar. You know, I feel concerned and also inspired to to be able to engage with this conversation with you, and at the same time, find ways that we might support the people in the movement in whatever ways possible.
Host 03:05
Right, yeah, absolutely. And of course, you also come very strongly from a meditation background. So there's these different layers of perspectives and experience that you're able to give not just about the current moment and understanding that but the deeper Dhamma that comes behind it.
Ashley 03:19
Right, exactly. Yes. Yeah. So I've been meditating, you know, for probably nine or 10 years, and in the going good tradition. And so that has really been a source of support for me over the last month.
Host 03:36
Yeah, right. Well, let's move into this particular episode. And for this interview, we're doing something we've never done before on inside me and my podcast. And that's we're having a short conversation briefly just before you hear the interview. Because we feel that the nature of what you're about to hear is so different and has some challenges that we really want to work to ground the listener and provide some context for better understanding what follows.
Ashley 04:08
Right, exactly. You know, the people in Jamar they're going through a really, really challenging time right now. And so that really shows in this next recording, with the speaker being in a very emotional state, and also the time of day and that the activities he's engaged in, so So yeah,
Host 04:29
yeah, right. And to give some background in our activity this month, we've really been trying to talk to people on the ground in Myanmar, and it's been extraordinarily difficult and not just difficult for technical internet reasons. But as one friend explained to me, so I understand a little bit better. just said, you know, a lot of us are really not in a good frame of mind right now with everything that is going on. I mean, of course we know that they're basically living in a terrorist state right now. And There's no stability anywhere, there's no state institution, that is any relief, most of them are actually the problem. And so to ask someone to take any time out of their day to talk and process what they're feeling and describing what they're doing, it's um, you know, no one really has the wherewithal for that. And so it's been really hard to be able to have a long form extended interview with anyone there. And we did touch base with the person you're about to hear who did agree to sit down. But he was also in, understandably, in this state of mind as someone who's active every day, whose faces literally changed colors from being in the sun so long, and the stain of different monasteries every night for safety. And the interview was cut off in the middle of it, because we started talking after midnight, one day, he stayed up, just to talk to us, there are people snoring in the background, and every night from 1am, to 9am, Myanmar time, the internet, all the providers, all the Wi Fi, all the networks are completely shut down. So in the middle of the interview, he stops midway, and then he woke up a few hours later, he went out and did some work outside of the streets, and then he came back, sometime around, you can hear the arms around behind him. So it tells us something about the time in the morning, maybe about eight in the morning, he continued the interview. So this is someone who's intrinsically emotionally physically involved in everything he's doing during the day, and is taking time out of that, to be able to talk to us and to share his experience. So that's some background about the situation that the speaker is in. So I think knowing about these background circumstances, really make you appreciate the availability of the speaker in taking the time to talk to us. And I want to emphasize there are some real gems in what he says he says some things in this talk that I cannot stop thinking about. And as we'll talk about, Ashley and I will talk about together after the speaker, when we flesh out some of his interview, there are some really, really profound things here that I think are very valuable for people who care about this issue for meditators, for others, to be able to understand the depth of what he's saying, and there's real real value in it. That value at times does not come out directly, it's not always the most straightforward, because he's in the middle of it right now. So sometimes the clear expression of ideas is beyond the ability of a mind that's caught in a very difficult situation. So one of the reasons why we're having this brief conversation before is to set some context, that we really want to encourage the listeners to stay with the speaker as these points are coming out, even when they're not being delivered in the clearest or most direct form. Because there is treasure at the end of this path where he's leading us. But more so than other interviews we've had in the past, it does take a bit of work sometimes to hang on and to get there. But I really want to emphasize it's really worth your effort when you do.
Ashley 08:20
Yes. And you know, I was really impressed with the speaker's ability to share about his experience given, given the situation that he's in right now.
Host 08:30
Yeah, absolutely. And I think even more than that, what it does for the listener, if you really hear underneath his words, more than any words can actually take you is it transports you in a way that pictures and videos and texts can't do to his reality. So even where he might not be the clearest or the most direct and getting to his point, I want to assure you, the point does come and it's very powerful. And even the journey there. While it might not always be the smoothest, it's a very authentic look and feel into his reality that I personally haven't gotten quite so profoundly. from everywhere else. I've been following this. And so for those listeners that really care about what's happening and want a better understanding of it, you can't do much better than than sinking into what he's going to say. So with that, let's pause here and bring in the interview and we'll join you after an hour and a half. I'm here talking to chiptune it's very late night in Yangon, where he's coming from us. He's staying at a Buddhist monastery after a long day, one of many long days out in the streets. We're trying to get the best sound possible for this interview. It's the sounds of me and Mar behind him of dogs and crickets and other Other kind of animal and insect life, including some other people in the room with him that apparently chiptune tells me are snoring. So maybe we might hear them in the background. He's already apologized in advance if we do, but we really appreciate you tune, staying up past midnight to be able to get this recording in after what's been a series of very long days, as his friends are now sleeping and what will be a series of long days coming up. So to tune thank you so much for taking the time and energy to be able to talk with us now.
Chit Tun 10:33
It's fine. I'm very glad to share it all. Because of you. So
Host 10:40
yeah, yeah. Okay. So before we get into what's been going on this month, I just I'd like to hear a little bit about you and your background, so we know who you are. So if you're able to describe a little bit about where you grew up, and your family life, and I know that Buddhism and monastic life also played a role in your upbringing, if you could share a bit about that background, so we just have a better understanding of you and where you come from?
Chit Tun 11:08
Sure. Yes, I am titone. And I was born in an insane Township. But I am mostly because, you know, my father is like the government staff. He was in like, the Ministry of the prison in the summer. So because of his, his God, we move like, especially like, we move to another CD to the Nazi because of his duty. When I was young, especially when I was 11 years old, I have been to the like a chain state. And this very hard, it's very hard for us to attend the school. That's why my father decides to let go to let it go. His job, and because of our education, especially we have a family member, and three years, my brothers in one and my sister and others, my parents, so he worried about our education. So so he let it go his job and he moved to the city, which is easy for our education, especially we spend a year in Holland ocean does, it does a nearly Penny, like, near the border of India. And after that we move to young, especially in Lego. And we arrived to Lego when I was 12. And I can I can carry on and carry on my education. You know, all that my father is a government stuff. But we we faced with a difficult times, because we he didn't get paid enough for the family, he didn't get the support from the government, especially, you know, like the government stuff, like ambitious government stuff. During the military, during the military government is really hard. It really hard to to stand. So that's why we he tried to let it go his job. But you know, his officer didn't allow he goes, he has no reason. If you want to leave the job from the government, he had to give the reason about the health or something like that. He gave the reason about our because A is difficult for all education, but they don't care about it. So my father got his job with an artificial, you know, like without informing any, any his officer. And after that we moved to Lego, and we carry on our education. And I finished my high school in Lego. And after that, my father went to China to get a job because you know, a member for it's very difficult to get paid enough for the family for the visit Walker. So I felt the desire to go to Thailand to walk with my eldest brother. And after that passed away in Thailand, we didn't get his body back. And we just made some kinds of donation for his funeral in November. And after that we carry on and when I finished my high school, and I moved to the more history, because the more history we support for my university education as a as a return on teach that I teach the students from the monastery. And after that, my fourth year after I finished my university, like when I was four years student, like in my family is very difficult. So I decide to walk before I finished my university, and I walk and 2020 I got a good job. I met with a good new family like that. But in 2025 as you as you know, everybody knows about the covid 19 pandemic is really difficult in a strike. Like it's hard for everyone to survive like We lost our normal life. But in Yammer, like we're, we were preparing so much to face that COVID 19 because the good government and in 2025 in 2025, other genuinely, we will prepaying everything. But at the size of a toy, we call the nightmare.
Host 15:23
I want to stop just for a moment there because I want to go before we get on that I want to go back to the time you spent at the monastery and Lego, you said that after your high school, you ended up spending a lot of time volunteering and living at a monastery. And yes, I want to ask a little bit more about what you were doing there and what your experience was like how you were influenced by spending so much time around monks and at a monastery and exposed to those teachings and kind of what your your overall time and experience was at the monastery during those years.
Chit Tun 15:59
Especially I spent about totally six years in the monastery. Because after finish, you know, in Yammer after I finished high school, we have to wait about about a year to get that result like a you pause or you feel the high school you know this is exactly nine months, this is about a year you need to wait about a year to attend the University. And after that, I spent about a six year in the monastery in monastery especially as I as I mentioned before I teach it to students from the monastery and the monastery is like that, they support the foreigner who especially the foreigner who wants to meditate in Myanmar who want to be a monk want to be in and so, we support them too. So, that in those cases I help them about to to arrange the accommodation and about about their problem about the health like about the reason problem, you know, in Yammer memories everyone knows in Yammer is a Buddhist Buddhism country, most of the people are voting no, but is very difficult even for even for you know, for the normal monk like the government has the device, the device and especially temporary government use the Buddhism as a cover as a cover for them. So, like most of the monastery in Myanmar is very difficult to survive only a famous only famous monastery or like they have the plenty of food and the other plenty or money to to spend in the building or in other other thing, but you know, as most of the monastery are a difficult, so, our monastery at the beginning also one of the monastery which faced the difficulties, but my abort like the leader of the monks, he is very trying hard, twice mean like, he is very like a viewer and is like how can I say just very restricted in his habit about he follow the monks rule. And he predicts so much that's why he famous among the lay person and the trying to support them. And he, he when he got the support from the donors, he tried to support to the students like us. So when I arrived through the Moresby ins tenders so I became one of the students from the Morris We especially a majority in monasteries, teaching, and arranging, help them to the foreigners. And, you know, in monastery one, we have one, we have a ceremony from the donors, we arranged for that. So and I was one of the one of the leader of the students.
Host 18:54
Yeah, right. Right. So you're, you're describing a monastery here with a say, who's very highly respected and revered for his integrity for the way he's following monastic discipline, even though economically there's quite some difficulties in terms of the support. They're able to get in a poor country and not being favored by the military and serving also a very poor community. And you were describing that the sedo was, in fact, so revered and respected at such a high level of what he was creating, that not only was he in a way, serving his local community, but foreigners that were coming into me and Mar to meditate to ordain to study Buddhism, in some form of all the 1000s of monasteries across the country. A handful were choosing to come into this monastery because the environment was so conducive to be able to have some kind of intensive practice and support and to be inspired by the example that say it was setting and you found yourself in this really interesting role. Have you been trained Hands planted to Lego, you had moved here with your family. And you have good English skills, your your your, your English is more fluent than those around you. So you were put in this role of interfacing between the local Burmese Buddhist monastic culture, and the foreign practitioners that are coming and trying to find a way to engage in the practice. And you're kind of coordinating these two different cultures that are meeting and coming into contact. And that's, that's really interesting. And that's where my next question is going is that you know, on this podcast forum, we talked to a lot of the foreigners that are on the other side of what you describe. So we talked to wheats, we talked to the foreigners who come and stay at the monasteries that you're serving and that you're living at. And we hear kind of their viewpoint and their background and their experience about what it's like living at that monastery, what they learn and what they enjoy about it and their challenges and everything else. But in talking to you, you're coming from the other side. So you're actually a native Burmese living in a monastery seeing these foreigners come and start to integrate. So this is like the reverse perspective of what we usually get. So I'm really interested to learn being a born Buddhist raised in a Buddhist country raised in a Buddhist family living in a Buddhist monastery in your native country of Myanmar, and then seeing these foreigners start to come in and try to practice that's a very new experience and thing for you to see. So what what did you What did you learn and watching the way that they approach the monastery and approach the practice and approach the culture and adjusted to the environment? What What did you find through observing their experience? Did anything inspire you? Did you learn anything more yourself, and just generally your perspective about seeing this,
Chit Tun 21:50
as you know, I most of my time, you know, as a youth I spent in the monastery, and my environment is like a monastery life. So, you know, before I got married, I was thinking to be a monk. And also wonderfully in pain to remember and like the proof to the boulder boulder away and they, they want to they want to learn the boulder teaching. So at the time, this make this make me a lot of inspiration. But you know, like, everyone is no perfect. Like, even in number like many, many good monks, but they are also the nuns in foreigner. Also, like for us, we need to focus like only like one vision one purpose if I want to learn English, so I just only did English and on the way before I got my powers, like they only have difficulties but but my problem is it too, to God in English, like a to be influenced in English by that for the the foreigner who wants to learn, the more in Yammer, like I want to learn about teaching in Yammer, some other foreigners that they really like to inspire us even for even for the native people like us, they inspire us because, you know, for them, even the reason that the season on Yammer is a challenge for them, you know, like a different like, in the in the western country, the seasons very cold, but the new hammer is really hot and rainy season like a different, the West and East really different. Like even for the reason is challenging for them, but never stop letting the Buddha teaching because of like, season or because of the space or because of the difficulty. They never stop their, their, their hunger for the Buddha teaching. That's when it was really surprised me and the you know, I got the Lord experience and that the without the, the teach anything to me directly, but they teach me like indirectly buying their habit and then buying their strong decision like that like that. But you know, and some other some other foreigners are like a they want to they also want to learn the Buddha teaching but like, especially the focus, if our space is not like good enough, good enough for to to live, you know, they thought is no okay. Like it's not okay to predicts like, right, like, like, how can I say very choosy, you know, very cheesy like. So, and also like sometimes the focus like on the wrong way because, you know, most of the foreigner who really enjoys about memory like that about Buddhism, you know, Buddha teaching, especially by the going and buying book by Listen, and also you know, they knew that very famous monk, like the monks rule very restrictive about the money lore and very good in mind and very tryhard. So the heart about that the foreigner, the Lenovo that and when they arrived, remember, the fight the Fallout, the reality, this is 21st century like a, you know, they lose their they lose in like a, they didn't follow the monk through not exactly and like some of the monks, but they are also the monks who follow exactly the Buddhist route. So very different. So what they have learned the reality the some some of the foreigners, they shock about them, but another time, you know, this is very, very, this is very challenging for us, as a as a monastery student, you know, we are very happy wonder Westerner came to the monastery, they want to learn about meditation, as a child, we thought, Oh, you can learn English burndown. And also we can hear, we can hear the Legos, different experience about the country of all this area, like, you know, that's it from us. This is very nice. But, you know, in reality, as I mentioned, like some of the foreigners are very nice. They have only one purpose that is they want to learn the Buddha teaching, but some of them are, their focus is wrong. They want to learn the Buddha's teaching, but like, they didn't clear they didn't be clear about what they need and what they want. So,
Host 26:28
right. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely understandable. I mean, people that are and this is something that has been happening for actually hundreds of years with Westerners that are reading about Buddhism, or practicing it in some way in their own community, and then coming into a Buddhist country with their own perceptions of how things should be or how their teacher or tradition tells them things are, and then having to adjust to the reality of how it's actually being lived. And the dynamic of these, these two different ideas coming into contrast. And, and also, you know, as you mentioned, that it's a that Myanmar is it does not have the resources that other countries have. And so there's one has to adjust to different conditions, both in the religious institution as well as comfort levels. But you know, I think it's really interesting talking to you, especially on this podcast forum, because we have a lot of foreign meditators that listen in a lot that have been to me and Mar have some kind of gratitude to Myanmar. And in talking to you, I mean, you you are one of those Burmese people, that is actively playing a role in helping these foreigners to access opportunities of practice in Myanmar. I mean, you are you you have played a physical impractical role for many years in helping foreigners have a more comfortable stay. And you know, we don't have time to get into all this now. But I, I know from talking to you, in our friendship outside of this, some of the difficulties that came up that that foreigners were faced with, and how much you tried to help them to manage those and to to be more comfortable so they could focus on practice. So you know, you're, you're coming from a background of really assisting these foreigners in the golden land to have these practice opportunities. And now coming from this Buddhist monastic background, you're now involved in what's going on this month. And that's where I want to move the interview to to understand exactly what's going on and what you're doing. Before I do that, I just want to check in with your comfort level, I don't want to ask any questions or discuss any topics that would put you at risk or that you're not comfortable talking about? So I just want to I want to ask about your comfort level? And if there's and, and what you're open to talking about and what we should be careful with?
Chit Tun 28:55
Yeah, I'm okay to talk about this. Because, you know, like, as a member citizen, yeah, I have a confident about this. So,
Host 29:03
I'm just curious about your own consciousness and activism on this issue. You have become very involved this month. But in my friendship with you, I haven't seen the same level of involvement or activism before this, I'm sure you've been concerned about these kinds of issues, and you talked about them, but you haven't actually been at least as far as my knowledge is actually going out and, and being really active at the forefront of this. So I'm curious about where did this kind of consciousness and activism arise in you,
Chit Tun 29:42
I have already familiar with, like about the disadvantages of the disadvantages of military governments. You know, this is the first thing is about my father. The second thing is about the monastery. So like every every And when I grew up is very hard under the military government, we Yes, we try to grow up, we try to grow up and we, we live honestly and we, you know, I have mentioned my father try half my father, he is a kind of hard worker, you know, he tried hard in my mother's to, you know, when when our family faced with a difficult time, my mother, like a sale, my mother sale, the Burmese tradition is next and my father, Warhawk elders, my eldest brother, or the war Hawk, you know, even the whole family is walking, but we didn't, we didn't get paid a net, to get a good education to get a good enough food later. So when I was a child, around, like five years old or six years old, because, you know, my father's my father's background is kinds of military officers, because my grammar, my grammar is a kind of, like a famous in the military, you know, people with a certain level, and also in my mother's side, and my mother's side is like, my grandfather's on my mother's side, he is a title, good officer in the ministry or prison. So I go, I go the like, not, although it is not perfect, but I go to Good, good life in when I was a child until I was eight years old. But you know, on my father's side, my grandfather passed away, my grandmother was alone. And also on my mother's side, my grandfather passed away, you know, so And after that, they didn't care about the rest of the family, for their military government. And after that, I faced with the difficulty, of course, t when I was a child, you know, because of my father, because he teach us, he, when he said, I was young, he forced us to read, to read the books about and he, he, he always pushed to, to learn to gather knowledge about this. So because as my father, I have already have, like, a kinds of knowledge about the military government when I was since I was young. And after that, when I grew up, you know, in monastery like, because, you know, like, most of the monastery or the left in the middle, they didn't offense to the military government, but they didn't fall because you know, as a monk, if there's a donor, the SF se, so at the time, but I have already Aniston, about the military, I it's around the 2012 2012 the maker, the Miko, how can I say no, this can this do this, like they make a election. So and after that, like the NLD government, like especially democratic government, they go to like a 64 space in the Beatles of lotto does a lot of so at the time, we talked with the taste of democracy. So at a time, at a time, like they were planning, they try, they tried to handle and like the Open the gate, especially like, employment for the young people, and they are trying to get the higher education. We don't need to afford a lot of money, we got a higher education. So at the time, I have the choice to improve the basis people because I've already people have already familiar with the high level people and the basic people. So at the time, to grow up the business people, we need a democracy, we, we the government have to be a democratic democratic government. So we send I was young, I believe that and 2015 the democratic government, they win and LD and LD won in the election. So we got like democracy. But you know, we didn't know if it is it was a fake. It was a fake. Because you know, in nimmer like the military, the military have already already taken a position you know, in in the in the government please. They have already like a you know, in memory economics in the main source or the economist place. They are already involved. So they gave us fake democracy with an lt government. But you already know that Dawson Suji, the State Councilor, she's, she has really hope to our people. Because in her speak, every time she speak, I really I can stand I guess depends on the state. I live in never because of my people, our people, our civilians is very important to you know, like, how can I See, in the traditional way, non traditional way, in Buddhism, we, we have a cause and effect, you know, we know that cause and effect. So she, she said about that cause an effort, if you are if you live, to dissolve with a democracy, so you will get the government, you will get the government that you dissolve.
Host 35:25
Right. So you're you're describing this intersection between movement towards democracy and Buddhist principles that are being introduced towards that movement that have inspired you. And this just makes me think yesterday, I was talking to a Western monk who has been to me Mr. Over the last 20 years. So he's been to Myanmar before it opened up in 2012. And after, and when I was talking to him about how he saw monasteries, in monastic environment and culture change, once the opening took place. One of the things he commented on was that before 2012, he actually felt that monasteries were more traditional and more conservative, and that as the as the opening took place, it also opened to Western consumerism, and distraction, and phones and internet and the number of monks in the monastery started to decline. And people showed less interest in religion. And I was very, I was very puzzled in hearing his description, because in one sense, this seems to me somewhat privileged to be able to say, if you're coming from a free country, where you already enjoy these freedoms, to, to hold on to some ideal of a traditional culture that's traditional, because they don't have opportunity, because they don't have freedoms, and because they're limited by what they're able to do. And then as things are opening up with, with more democracy, and more opportunities, and more freedoms for everyone, that is creating an influence in the monasteries and among practitioners, that there is more distraction and consumerism and such, from his point of view that this is happening. So I'm just I'm wondering, from your perspective, as you saw this opening take place, what change Did you see in like monasteries, and in monastic culture during these years?
Chit Tun 37:22
Well, those years, I think, nor didn't change much for the monastery, you know, because, like, I've already mentioned, without the military government, in a long history, the use the religion as a cover for them, because they understand it, like, the most of the people in the ever, they have a belief and respect under Buddhism. So they use the point, the use of wine, and, you know, every time on the one hand, you have, every time when the military cop, every time in the military cop, they use the, they use like a religion as a cover, and that they, you they make a conflict by using the by using the religions, you know, like, they make a conflict between the Muslim and the Buddhists. And so one of during this year, like, normal, different, normal is different for them bonus free, but we gotta we gotta like clear information under the military government, the block the news, real news, like a pot, they have already like, even under the military government, we have a lot of nanny difficult. Money difficult, difficult monastery in Yammer, and there are a lot of plays in Yammer, which are facing the difficulty, especially more or less free, the staff, but not people must know because like, because of the inflammation block, but and the democratic government and LG government and the government, we knew that, because no information block and we we knew them before, right? That's why that's it. We got some of the people thought some of the people thought before we didn't heard about the news, you know, but we we we heard about that new like a bad news. Several other places are starving, and we need to support some of the more as to your very difficult we need your support before we didn't have to bother. Yeah, this is this is just for information block and the military government, but on the NLD government, we knew, like we knew most of the things around the whole country. So that's why so like, the deeper there's more difficulty about the religion about the monastery under the NLT government. But this is not true.
Host 39:44
Right. So that freedom of expression allowed the ability to be able to know and more detail about what was actually going on in monasteries and how to support them in ways that that was never possible to be shared before the country opened up.
Chit Tun 39:58
Yeah, yeah. You know, and also like, the military government is like a gross, because you know, even the cut the cut the, the cut the money and like supplies from the donor, if you donate 100% only just 30% or 40% arrived to the, to the people who are difficult, you know, like, other 50% 60% have gone in the air, and other major government such kinds of corruption are yet another Nigeria government. That's why that's why, you know, like, military government, they block their information. So, under the Yes. Right. So
Host 40:40
getting to this month, and what's happening now, I'm curious, what role Are you playing in everything? What What is it that you have decided to take on? And what are you doing every day?
Chit Tun 40:53
I do. In this month, this is really changed my life. Like me, can like a politician. This month, this changed my life. Because, you know, before I was planning to be a nice family, because I just married about only this is only two months, and I go the new family. So I have to walk. You know, I was dreaming. I was dreaming. And I was planning for my life. During the January Yeah, because you know, as a good news, my, my wife, she's pregnant. So, I got, I am family. So I have to try our four double, double for that. And my ob double Lutz, this is very hard, you know, at the early morning, around the fall, fall, am My friends call me and make a call to me. Brother, did you heard the news? What, you know, what I was leaving, what one use, they arrest our state counselor, the President and the other the leader or the NLD government? What Don't joke me about that, this is not the kind or the thing to make a joke, this is my feet and my life change. But then the chariot strike just want and aura Aldrin gone, I have no idea what I have to do. But I try to come down in mind and AJ my life now I am I am playing this game as the leader of the students, especially because, you know, I have already decided you know, every country in the world, there is no like, you know, after the military cops as no country which is developed. So, I believe that and our country have already phased for many, many, many years. Our grandfather, our Father, our grandfather, my grandfather, in his time, he lost in the Navy, when he is like one of the general and the way he is really bad and he did the military caught and at my father time he lost generate danshui he is he did an injury Colton member in our time gentlemen, all right, he did the same things. So, I decide we have to stop this such kinds of thing, we have to stop and we have to we have to try our boss of us to stop these things in mirror. So I decided I did everything I can to stop this such kinds of frequent military cop and yeah, because of the military club, you know, you know, at the beginning, our country was second developed can several seconds of low country in the Southeast Asia, but because of the military cops, we go down to the poorest country we will poorest we will one of the poorest country in the war, they are the best because of the military cops. So I decided I will I will try my best in this cases. So I decide and I tried to coordinate with my friend and other people who try like a comingle nine and the he is the ag ag student, the ag o students. So he is one now we mark him He is one of our leader, but he always said or us our leader. So our stay consulado says huji born many leaders a member we have to prove that. So I play as one of the leader for this student. And now I am trying my best to to stop this military cops and to stop these. Like how can this deters you from Yemen
Host 45:01
So you're describing that you everything's going well for you, you have a great job, you have just married, you're due to be a father, you're connected to foreign meditators that are coming in. So you're gaining this merit by helping them to practice you're in contact with great monks yourself so that you have this spiritual journey in front of you. So you have all these really great things, both in worldly life responsibilities, spiritual life, friends, everything else, profession coming at this time. And then this terrible thing happens on February 1. And you decide that you're basically going to risk all of these things in your life that you're holding on to, to put yourself out there day after day in protesting and claiming this independence and this freedom. Was this a difficult decision to come to to knowing the risks and the sacrifices involved?
Chit Tun 46:03
Yeah, sacrifices for my baby. I don't want I don't want my I don't want I don't want my baby to grow up under the military government. Yeah, you know, like, having a good job does is cool. For me. Having a good environment, having a good family, this is good for me. But you know, my brother, he just got a new job two weeks ago. Now, he has no job anymore. And my friend, they were planning they have already we have already passed the they've already finished their university, they are planning to go to abroad and to make a diploma about their engineering, they are stopped because, like, all over the country. Now the other country, like the mega ascension to remember, and no scholarship, like, you know, most of our youth in lost the dream for them. For me, and also, like, this is the first time we voted. We voted LG government. We voted immigration government the first time, but the military did. They don't care, our they don't care, our you know, our vote, they don't care as they have already taken over. Like, in our country, you know, like, their daughter, their son, and their family. They live in our country, as a king as a princess as a prince. And also, now they're spending a lot of money because I have already know, but most of the people they are silent. They didn't care. Because now we are planning to be our vast under the LT. Government. We don't care about them. It's okay. It's okay. You have already spent all country results for their own, but it's okay. We can understand we can a patient of all that. But they did an injury coop. This really that for us. Now. Everything is stopped. You know. Now, you might think I have a good job. And I have a good life. Don't worry. I you know, there's a consequence big consequence in our country. If we if we can stop this says Kaiser says Kaiser seemed like a military coop, if already three times and never and the grip of our country to the from the top to the dome, you know, we I forgot to mention you we will, we will we was our country was a like a second World country in Southeast Asia. But now we are countries in one of the poorest country in the war. This is because imaginary coops and the debt and the US Air reach as everything from our country for their own nor for our people. Because I grew up in Mormons, I grew as a modest life. I grew as a monastery student, you know, I knew that. I knew that and I understand the heart of bommies people the heart onyema people there, you know, this is not like a toys. You know, like we I said, you know, as an homage people you know, I have never so I mentioned about the Miramar people Like, never beavers are cool like that, you know, like it, I understand most of the people in the river, especially, you know, like a normal people they are, they have a big heart, you know, but that could destroy their job, their life, and their hopes and their choice. So I cannot accept that. Although I have a good job, I can carry on my walk, I can carry on my job, and I can carry on. But my job, we stopped my job, we stopped June, like, next few months, because of this, there's a strike and also you. Now everything's a link, everything's in link. If the country is no safe, no investment, no deployment, only the people who have very good relationship with the military, they will have a good chance for that. But for the normal people, for the people with a big heart with a good kind hearted, they will face many difficulty, I encounter a preceptor, that's why I decided, you know, I have already taken risk everything. Because I ended up I might lost my job. I might know my family, even for me, I might be arrested by the police advisors holder and assure, but before I go to the prison, I will try my best for my country. For my people. That's my decision. So that's why I know when I play as a rule, or the leader of the student, and I'm trying my boss.
Host 51:49
Thank you, thank you for that those are really powerful words. And, you know, obviously, as foreign meditators that are listening to this that have had influence in Myanmar, we don't, obviously don't have any power to influence those big players are make policy if we if we could, we would. But that being said, there are many people listening that are very concerned about what's happening, that are doing whatever they can from their home countries with the sense of gratitude that they feel for what they were given spiritually from this country. I'd like to ask you, Burmese Buddhist on the front lines, who has met many of these foreign meditators who have supported many in their journey. in your own words, I'd like to know what kind of support is most valuable at this time, from foreign practitioners like me, like listeners out there, in this position, in the position that we're in and what the limitations that we have of what we can do. So what message would you like to give them now of how they can support and what they can do reasonably from their position?
Chit Tun 53:04
For applies in for a person who want to be a king. He needed follow us. So now we are making a plan. So everyone knows, like, this is CDM CG and this is civil disobedience. So like, the government's job or supporting the government system? Now we are, this is our will to fight. That's why I said we win we will win, we have already had the answer. We will win this month, then much we will win. Now we are doing the CDM boom. And so now and also now we like linking we are now creating and now what to support to support the CDM like a cassidian government stuff. So they might be like they might need their financial support or the living space, but we are trying our best. So this is not to worry about that. But like for the listener, I really want to request Please listen our voice and now as all energy government, our selected government, he is like this, that community. They try their best. So please. Like that's all
Host 54:34
right, so we're continuing the interview with to tune we were talking to him last night Burmese time and at one o'clock in the morning. These days every night and one in the morning. The Internet cuts out until 9am. So because to tune was out all day and we couldn't connect with them until after midnight. We were cut off in the middle of the interview. There was no internet all night. Burma, there's not these days and these weeks, and it's the following morning as we continue this dialogue, picking up where we left off. So Tim, thank you so much for making time to come back and continue on.
Chit Tun 55:15
Thank you. I'm also glad to continue talking with your sir.
Host 55:21
Yeah, yeah. So before we pick up on the question we were at before, can you just tell us what, how your morning was? What, what what happened this morning, what time you woke up and where you went? Yeah.
Chit Tun 55:33
6:30am fulfilled, to protest. Because we are protesting everyday, like, that's why. So this morning, I arranged, I arranged the things for the students like, like a boat, and I arranged the speaker car, and I encode an iPhone already given information to the students last night. So they have already gathered on the on the breach of label and we are we did protesting. And, you know, because of the internet cut off, so I just want I just want as I go the internet back, I went back to my place, I ran back to my computer. Great,
Host 56:21
great. So let's, let's continue where we left off the question that you were in the middle of answering when the internet cut was I had asked you what message you might like to give to foreign meditators knowing that there are foreign meditators that are indebted to the spiritual traditions of the country to people like you helping them on their path to carrying and wanting to support and yet, you know, we're all pretty small people. And there's a limit of what we could support what we could do, what message would you like to give to foreign meditators who are really caring and concerned right now?
Chit Tun 56:55
Yeah, you know, even, even just for that question, I'm glad. Because, like, they care about us, you know, we are different people and different country, but they care about us, and they want to support as they can. So I really appreciate for that, you know, and I would like to share about about the situation, because we have protesting everyday. This is because we feel, and we realized that we lost our future. And they viewed our choice. You know, we just want the democrats our democracy back, you know, we have many reason for the protesting, but among then, the most important thing is, we want our democracy back. So according to your question, we just want the emotional support from the, from the foreign meditator and the people from other countries and I request please understand us, you might you might see, you know, we comment many message in every famous under under the page, order popular people and enter the ceremony of the other country, we we comment about our safe memorably help us, this is, especially you, I know, you will notice that is most of the people are also the people or the youth, you as I'm not sure if you understand or not, now, we are feeling that the military abuse, our hopes, our future, you know, the destroying everything for us. So now, please listen, our voice and we need emotional support. And also now, we are doing our best, you know, every day, we did the protesting, we did the protesting, and we show, we show our wish, we show our wish, on our votes by our voice. And also, on other side, we are doing to support the CDN government, CDN government stops, you know, we help them about advantages of both and about the living space and also about their security, you know, like, a night and night, then Atari trying to arrest the CDN people and protesting people at night. So this is really, this is really important for us, but we don't afraid them. We're not afraid. And we are afraid and we so now we're calling teams, we call it the people from the ward and the from the township, and we are against and we don't accept the rules that they make by the military. We don't accept so I would like to request the people from the other country. Please listen our voice. So you know, especially Please, listen our voice you will know exactly what we want.
Host 59:57
So to tune as I'm talking, I hear some noise outside. What is what is the noise outside saying?
Chit Tun 1:00:06
monastery?
Host 1:00:07
It's bombs rounds for the monks, the monks are still going on alms rounds to even even know.
Chit Tun 1:00:22
Because they donate to the mocs. Yeah.
Host 1:00:31
I see. I see. So I just wanted to go back to your last answer. And you were saying that just emotional support is something that is important right now. I think for some foreigners, we're meditators who are very connected to the country and very concerned, it, it feels it can feel like from our side, just saying, we're thinking about you, we were sorry about what's happening in your, in our hearts, we're sending meta, this can feel like it's not enough, it can feel kind of empty. But you're saying that this actually means a lot to you, when you hear foreigners on internet talking to you directly, you're talking generally and saying that they're keeping you in, in their thoughts and their prayers and their meta that this is actually very meaningful to you right now, this is supportive.
Chit Tun 1:01:15
Yeah, of course, is over for us. Because, you know, after after we after we are protesting, you know, after we after we as protest, and one right back, so we check all the Facebook and we live in their voice from the, from the, from the other country. So is mega, this mega, like a mole angries for us, like and also the key of strength for tomorrow, you know, like, you know, protesting is, honestly, it's very, like a kinds of tire wart, you know, guys, Tiger Woods, but we don't care about it, we don't care about it, we protest everyday, you can look my face, like is it a two color two color because, uh, because of the COVID I wear mask every time, but you know, the other part of the face is become dagger and dagger. So, even for our phases, this is to color. So, and you know, honestly, if they can support in action, like especially now, you know, like, you will know, the About Us knew at the midnight, like the voice the voice is around 18 years old, he he made us he make a boat in front order in front of the UN embassy. He showed it, how many people how many? How many? How many dead for a neat un take an action, you will know, you know that you heard about them use you know, this is the reality. So, you know, honestly, I don't want like a visible from the country. But But during these day, we need us as much as we got, you know, whatever you gave, this is like, this is a big sample for us. You know, but I understand my understanding is the most important thing is our people. member, we need to stand up and now we are standing up, as you see five times a to you know, we did we have we came off from our home to protest. A lot of people they don't care about the pandemic. They don't care about the military shoots, you know, you we heard about it in Mandalay, like, you know, is only is only 16 year old, he's he's only 16 year olds and, you know, he just looking forward to support the other people. But he was shot to the head by cyber. It's really, it's really hard to except for us. And also, you know, that the girl from nichido She is, you know, she's only just 19 years old. And she protests peacefully and one or the military tried to try to break down the people. The crowd didn't try on a one day when they tried to stop the crowd and they use they use a water of water pipe with a strong force at the time, these Gill and other people to cover the water. They closed the approach near the tank, but at the time, I got one of the officer one of the officer from the police. He shot to the hat or the guild. What is that? We cannot accept that, you know, as a as my as my feeling. You know, honestly, I feel really angry about that. When I was thinking I was thinking to ban the police station. But I didn't do it. Because my understanding and we protest peacefully. You know, Barack Obama said one day go blue wiggle right. Is that that same, you know, whatever they did very Maxi being, that abuse us, our hope, our dream, they destroyed our routine, but we just want our democracy back. So, you know, in our country, there's a lot, there are a lot of normal thing held on that military date. So, you know, honestly, we need, we need whatever you can support us, you know, please do it. For us, we are doing our best also, you know, you can check my account, every time after protesting, I just arrest only for to have my food and the sleeping, sleeping time. Only these times, I have arrest other all the time I did, you know, by my phone, I make everything I can't, I did everything I can. So honestly, we need every symbol that you can make for us. And also for us, we are doing our best.
Host 1:06:08
Right. So yeah, I mean, I I can't begin to understand the emotions that are at stake right now, you know, just in your in talking now you're, you're clearly rightly so you know, emotional and angry and running on very little every day, in terms of the kind of energy and output you have to have. And, you know, I want to explore that you talked about just now and you talked to me several days ago about some of the things that happened. Some of the horrors that happened in your reaction to them, that anger, you know, wanting to recognizing and identifying a certain kind of anger that wanted to, to burn police stations, as you said, of course, you don't do that they go they go low, you go high. And you're holding on. So you're holding on to this kind of non violent ethics, this, this, this non harm to others. And even when you're recognizing these very human emotions of rage and sorrow and sadness, and everything else, you're holding on to this very important value, that there's a line that no matter what you won't cross, there's a quotation I read that really stuck with me that I want to read to you that I read on Twitter by one Burmese user. He said, they have guns, we have nothing, we are all sleep deprived, outraged and can't think clearly at this moment. If we were to retaliate, in any violent means, we will lose. Let's stay united and keep supporting the civil disobedience movement. Yes, and this is this is really a powerful thing that you're, you know, mentally and physically. You're, you're really in a difficult state and you you know that there's a very, very, very narrow path you have to walk to avoid the traps that are being set for you. And yet, you're adhering very strongly to this non violence, this is a very strong value, no matter what happens, no matter how you feel, you are committed to this non violence you and so many other people I've talked to, where does this commitment come from? Why are you in spite of everything committed to this value above all else,
Chit Tun 1:08:31
this is because we follow the autoantigen So, he is like all pionier you know, everything he did everything the voter deeds. So, we can learn from him, we have our country you have you guys already know that this is most of the people are Buddhism. But you know, at the beginning, we we got a middle understanding about the other religions and other people and we cannot totally understand for the generation or I mean 1988 bones 1988 I get these people testified about the madness of the military. So we cannot understand it, but now we innocence. So we I you know before the conversation I have already talked about that. We are most of the Chinese people has a big heart and they have a very understand they understand who the other people. They just want to live honestly and they just want to rise step by step. So that's why we we don't go in like a nice team. We just want to live peacefully and we just want to have our right correctly. You know, we just want to have a lot of fun codecs. We don't want to blame other people, we don't want to fight other people. We just want to stay I've already told you you know, and never according to the history from the military people, you know, and their environments, very rich than normal. There, they have already used and they have already used all the chance they got, they have already used the country's results and other chance. So the most of the, not most of the people or the people around the military environments, especially like a top top layer people, they are very rich than normal. You know that. A lot of project in Yammer, Lego, big hotel, and other big project for the building for the bridge, I guess they own, we don't care about it. We just want to live peacefully. When you when we try heart, we will like to feel we will like to get our result. That's it very simple. But because now we are patient, we are non violence because of the Buddha teaching and also our leader steak also our dogs and Soo Ji she is very likeable. She is kind of Nobel Prize and for us, she always said we if you decide when you fear angry, or when do you feel any feeling about in the wrong way? If you decide most of the decision will be wrong. The most important thing is you need to become peaceful and you need to be ready. So if so become true.
Host 1:11:55
So how are you maintaining to be calm and peaceful and a balanced mind when you're faced with such heavy emotions, such physical activity, such movement, as you mentioned, your skin color has changed in the last couple of weeks because you're you're outside in the heat so much the coronavirus pandemic is raging, how are you able to maintain and work with a calm mind, in spite of such intense situations?
Chit Tun 1:12:26
The only reason is we believe that non violence is our way. And this is the reason we will win. This we need because non violence is it is a business fundamental thing for the human for all the human. We don't want to fight. We don't want to abuse other people. So the most important thing is non violent. So to to maintain this. We understand and we accept that. Hmm, yeah,
Host 1:13:01
right. I see. I see. That's Yeah, that's, that's very powerful. Um, so you mentioned how non violence is coming from a basic doctrine in Buddhism. And you're training at the monastery, which is inspiring you a way to go about this protest in a way that really sticks to this nonviolent principle. Are there other beliefs or practices coming from Buddhism coming from your time in meditation coming from your time in monasteries? Are there other values that are on display now in the protests?
Chit Tun 1:13:36
Yeah, of course. Like, you know, last night, I'll told you, most of the Burmese people are like a Thea honest and they are understandable. This is because all the Buddha teaching and you know, all the religion in the war, they teach, to be peaceful, to be understandable, each ought to understand each other. So, normally, most of the people, they follow that, during the protesting will against we faced with very hard situation to accept. But all the people believe that non violence is the solution. If we, if we, if we can hold that decision. We just need a piece. We just want a piece so we can live together. So other quality is I've already told you this is the fundamental thing. So we are the quality I think I don't need to mention about that.
Host 1:14:52
Okay, okay. So I'm curious also, just what it feels like being on the ground, you know, Being away from the protests, we see pictures and videos and hear testimonials and get bits of information, but we don't really understand the feeling of what it's like to actually be involved. So can you describe as best as you can? What does it actually feel like to be there on the street with the people with the things happening? What if you were to take the listeners onto the streets and want to try to explain to them what the feeling is, like, when you're there? How would you describe it?
Chit Tun 1:15:28
You know, I admit it, you're afraid, from the gunshot? At the beginning, we afraid from arresting by the military. But on the other side, we believe we are doing the right thing, and we are following the right path. And we are united. So at the time, or the fear, just gone. So, on the street, we feel the Unity on the street, we strength, we stand for the truth. On the street, we fight for our rights. So, you know, all the fear from the gunshot from a restaurant and monastery from the military. Gone evidence gone we have only power strength from the Unity from doing the right thing. That is our feeling, huh?
Host 1:16:45
How is organizing happening? Who is making decisions? How is the organization and the activities that are taking place being planned? Who is doing that? How is it happening?
Chit Tun 1:16:58
This is, you know, it is strange. Like, all the generation like us, like me, and all the students and all the people like crazy, this is the lead themselves, they lead them. So at the beginning, you know, we have a saying when we compare with the fire and water, if the fire is much more the fire, we win. If the water is much more than water, we win. So this time, we cannot accept the military groups, and we don't want to ship. So all the people are, you know, we didn't much we didn't match afford to unite the people. They just follow. They just followed that. They go out on the street, because they don't accept the military this time. And after that, we have already have their celebrity government and LD. So we support our government. And they're everyone from the street. They realize that you know, because now you will notice that during the election, they voted, but now on the street on people who folded to NLD who folded to ustv. Who folded to pvb. Who didn't vote during the election, all the people are on the street and they unite. This is the god they don't accept the military call the dealership they don't want anymore. That's why so but you know, like the military is a kind or organization which follow the one order. So they are they united system medically as the civilian for us. We unite fine our hearts by always, not by an order. In this cases, in this situation. All the people in the mo are leaders. There is no follower. They did the decision by their own. We just we just arrange and we just planning like to be systematical. But, you know, there's no followers in this cases. All the people are leaders.
Host 1:19:38
Yeah, that's beautiful. That's really wonderful. Is there anything that surprised you about the way this movement has developed? Is there anything that has come about in the way it's been organized or followed or implemented that you wouldn't have expected?
Chit Tun 1:19:55
Of course, this surprised me a lot because you know, I lost I was a, I was a strong partisan. One when during the election, you know, during the election I, I stand for an LG government. And also for the like the people from usdp. who support the US TV. We fight on Wi Fi on online, you know, on Wi Fi on Facebook, Wi Fi on Twitter, you know, and also from the other from the other party people yeah, like disable other other party like, even even I have I have a seven friends. We we have already familiar send we send in child, but we have a conflict about the politic. I would like to stb. He said he don't need your like an LD, no problem. But in this case, we unite. We don't we don't need to say it. I'm really sorry that I don't understand it. Here, we have already understand each other. And you know, the surprise thing. All we have to do two kinds of people, the people who like you and the people who didn't, who don't. So you know, during the protesting the people who fight with me, they protest together, they listen, they listen, my leading this has really surprised me. They follow like a, you know, they have their their own desires their own. They want their hopes is they don't want that issue. They want democracy back at the time. It isn't like that, because now I'm serving as a one of the leader and in the student organization. So they follow. I was really surprised about that. So now, as I mentioned, that every people from your I can see every people, except from the very few who have already win by fear. They didn't go out for the street. Right? Right.
Host 1:22:01
So you're talking about the support from so many different sectors of society. And one thing I'm curious about, and I know listeners who are very interested in with a background in Dhamma, and meditation and Buddhism, would also know you spent a number of years living in a monastery, you're friends with many monks, what are you seeing of the reaction of some of the Buddhist monks that the you know, at this time? How are they responding this month,
Chit Tun 1:22:29
like a two kinds of monks, in this case. Like I believe that most of the monks, they don't, they don't accept, they don't accept the judicial option, even for like a senior monks order me Mr. Monk organization, you know, they give a they give, they give a letter to the leader of the military may online, the general may online, they send a letter, this is a kind or this is a kind of request, in the in the letter that this is their the senior monks we accept we accept that he is run by that we really respect these monks, you need to understand and as a monk, as a monk normally. Normally the monks they didn't involved in their labors and laborers and problem laborers and conflict. But this is not a conflict between parties or between some people. This is not a conflict. No, this is not a normal conflict. This is for the whole country. That's why the senior monks, they released a letter to Jeremy on another site before there was the like the monk the names of mapa de tunings and mapa de so are they want, you know, these monks are very serious about the about the Muslim, they didn't accept the Muslim unity, mostly religion. So, at the time, they make a team, we have already have a photo for the monks organization, we have already had the mohana This is the official organization mahana. But some of the monks, they want to make another team, another organization, more pata. So this Maha The purpose is to protect the woman from the from the side of the board is in you know, they want to protect from the Muslim. So that problem happened during the NLD government. So, some of the monks, they don't like the government, so the silent in this cases, but I knew that and I believe that real monks, most of them, didn't accept the leadership. They didn't support the military cops, the staff with people from Yama in Myanmar society, the Sangha the monkhood is a revered institution, they're kind of a moral authority. And yet they're also it's balanced by their precepts of not being too involved in politics and worldly life. And they're, they're removed from that because they're on a spiritual path, and yet they do have some kind of responsibility to give ethical and spiritual guidance and advice. So, what do you think is the proper role of the monkhood at this time in this moment, you have already mentioned about that, like, for the monks, they support their society by especially more support their guidance for the Buddhists in to be peaceful, to be honest, and to live with with Islam means to live by doing the good things. So, in this situation, the center of the monks is important, but I realized that they won't do any action any action more easy to tender, like a given advice to the to general like to the military, but like, in a month in amongst organization, they are also like a How can I say the usual monks like around the 2025? They are, they are they have learned, like they have learned about eating, but they don't like so, they came out to the street for protesting. They show they show their decision like that. So but honestly, like, for us is kind of good work protesting with us. We feel we are together, not only the monks, you know, like, how can I say the saints from the Christian Christian organization and also Muslim organization? Can you reason the cannot be all came out to the street and the protest together? This is this kind of really, kinda weird thing for me. You know, normally, like, there's a little bit misunderstanding each other, and, you know, during the religions, but now, they unite not only for the monks for the Buddhism, but also for other religion. Now they invoke the important center, they are also kind of the moral symbol and the physical symbol for the people from Yammer. So they are center is important for us, not only for the marks, yeah.
Host 1:28:03
Yeah, that's, that's really great. That's really wonderful to hear. I think those are all the questions I have. You're obviously following the way that the protests are being shared and understood and reported outside of me and Mar, and yet you're intrinsically involved in it. So before we close, I'm just curious if there's anything you feel any understanding, you feel is not really being properly captured or communicated through the way that it's being understood abroad. Is there anything that you would like to explain or share to give a deeper meaning that maybe isn't coming out? Exactly accurately?
Chit Tun 1:28:45
No. We are doing our best to against the military coup to against a dealership, you know, like in the war, other country, you know, some of the other some of the country are divvied up and they're facing where the dealership is facing with a military copes, the most important thing is, be strong. Be ready to stand for the truth. For the right. You need to be totally understand and you need to be you need to totally understand and you need to totally believe what you are doing. And what you're seeing. Now, we have belief about what we are doing. What we are saying. So be brave, to stand on the right side. Be strong to stand on the right side. With that,
Host 1:29:49
thank you. I wish you health I wish you safety I wish you success. You know, be safe take care of each other, adhere to these Buddhist principles. Some non violence even in the hardest of times, and our thoughts and our wishes, and our meta are really with you right now.
Chit Tun 1:30:07
Thank you so much. And I have already mentioned such kinds of support. It's make me feel stronger, stronger, you know, admit it. I've already stolen it. But more stronger than normal, because of your voice support. And you know, even for this conversation, it makes me it makes me for church. Yes.
Host 1:30:29
Good to hear.
Chit Tun 1:30:30
Thank you so much. All right, so
Host 1:30:39
we're back again. And that was really powerful interview with someone who is right there on the front lines of what is happening and is openly sharing with us, his activities and impressions and background and everything else. So I, of course, I was conducting the interview. So I had some thoughts to share along the way of what it felt like just talking and engaging with him. Before I get into that, actually, you heard the interview after it was already done when I sent you the file before it was released. And I think you heard it more than once you heard it several times and took copious notes as well to repair. What were your overall reactions, feelings, impressions of listening to it?
Ashley 1:31:22
Yeah. You know, I think the first thing that struck me was his ability to speak English, I was really impressed with how well he speaks how easily he speaks, like you said, even though he is in this really trying circumstance. And the other thing was just, I was impressed by his ability to speak from his heart, and just how honest he was in sharing in vulnerable to So yeah, I had a lot of mixed feelings, listening to children talk. I felt really inspired by his bravery. And his selflessness was very obvious, as well. And his commitment to non violence, I think, was was also very inspiring to me. So. So yeah, I there were times that I felt really quite sad. And I related to his experience, based on my time in EMR, and, and just a lot of empathy for for what everybody's going through there.
Host 1:32:21
Yeah, right. And from my side of conducting it, you know, right. I, having conducted a number of interviews, now I kind of things I look for, and things I kind of feel what you know, how things are going and right from the start? I did being behind the microphone, I was kind of thinking, you know, boy, I know, I know, to tune really well. I mean, we're intimate friends for many years. And he's a really fluid and Natural English speaker. And as we started talking, I realized the way he was expressing himself was just a bit more, you know, jagad, and kind of starting and stopping and sometimes meandering to get to a point. And I was thinking on my end, okay, how do I maybe ask some questions or prompt to get to bring that out, or, if this is just not a good time, should I check in about another time and then suddenly, it just kind of hit me, this is the reality right now this is the there is no better time, there is no other time to connect, there is nothing to do to to bring out a different version. Sometimes you can do that in interviews, you can you can engage with the guests in a way where you you get a different response based on the energy you're sending out. But soon after I realized this is just a really authentic look and feel into the personal toll that it's taking on people. And this is the best he can do at this time. And the best he can do at any other time, which is quite good and quite impressive. But it also gives an accurate feeling of just how much one is holding on to you right now.
Ashley 1:33:54
Yes, exactly. Yeah, you know, I think what what tune and others are experiencing right now is is very much related to just decades of oppression. And and I think it's hard for for foreigners to see that at a glance. But, but what's happening now is it's it's been in the making for a very long time.
Host 1:34:19
And he references that too, you know, he went I think there's a lot of telling moments in this talk. One of those moments that stood out for me was when I had asked him about his current activism, knowing that he hasn't really ever engaged like this before. And I had asked him kind of a question along the lines of you know, what, how, how did this consciousness come alive, where this was suddenly something you wanted to do? And his answer was, instead, it showed a disconnect between what his experience was and where I was inquiring in terms of giving me this much deeper focus History of, of what his life had been like and the past 25 years, or whatever it was, and what he had lived under and what he had seen and how he had been impacted, to really show that this might have been his first touch with activism. But it was very far from his first touch with holding some of these ideas and being impacted by these experiences.
Ashley 1:35:22
Right, exactly. Yeah, you know, as you mentioned, even though he hasn't been actively engaged with, with politics or or activism. This is just something that he's lived through his whole life. And he's been a victim of, in a sense, whether it's poverty or instability, corruption under a military dictatorship for decades, you know, lack of resources or, or various hardships that he mentioned, you know, all of those things have impacted him into the person that he is today. And that's exactly why he's able to respond as he's responding right now.
Host 1:36:01
Yeah, that's very well said. And just going back into that family history, you know, he talks about how every member of the family was working hard, and it still didn't have enough funds. And his father wasn't able to leave his job because he couldn't get permission. And I think one of the things that really struck me and hearing this was well, he then goes on to say that he, he understood the unfair, the unfairness of this, and even after the country opened up, he he and his friends and his family recognize that those who had really unfairly run this system, we're never going to be properly brought to justice. Not only that, but they in many ways, we're going to continue with the power and privileges and riches and everything else they held. But even with all of that chiton explains really beautifully and in depth, how he had kind of come to some resolution with that, and that he now had opportunities he didn't have before the country had opportunities, they could have their own life. And so whatever inequities or unfairness was was in that system, whatever sense of aggrievement existed from previous wrongs, there was a way of moving past that in order to just live your life and to to do the best that you could and just accept that things were that way. But on February 1, that all changed. And so this kind of bargain, you can say that they had to, to accept how things were in return for really being able to work for something of a better life they didn't have before, that was taken away. And the one thing, the last thing that they had left that they could hold on to that thing was also taken away from them. And and that just became too much.
Ashley 1:37:49
Yeah, you know, it's really quite incredible. The way that this movement is, is operating right now, where, you know, people are, are focused on non violence and, and they're not necessarily doing it out of hatred, or resentment. I think, you know, before the coup, it sounded to me, like Trojan was describing, they were moving towards building a society that, that they wanted to live in, where they could be guaranteed some sense of safety and stability, and peace and harmony. And, and as you said, All of that was gone overnight. And so even though there's been decades of say, corruption from the military government, I didn't sense you know, resentment towards them. So that, that that's really quite admirable,
Host 1:38:45
right, if there wasn't resentment, but there also wasn't disengagement or ignorance, there was very much a sense of everything that had happened and how wrong it was, with another kind of determination that I don't want to hang on to this and and we can ever get to a state of perfection with being satisfied of more equitable opportunities. So the most we can hope for is that at least we have a chance right now. And this was all very formulated and thought out in terms of where he was at that stage in his life. And so when this very last piece of personal liberty and freedom was also snatched away, that was where something where it was like, and he said he I don't know the exact words he said it but he said something that really struck me profoundly. And that I also am since I heard from him, I'm just realizing this being echoed from people of his generation in the movement overall, which is this sense of, you know, you can't have that to you. That's not something that I can allow to be let go of. So there's this underlying message of what your tune is saying and February 1 of where is consciousness and awareness comes from Which is that the last thing that he has left for his own personal freedom and liberty, that is something that he can't allow taken away, that is something that he needs to commit to the present moment for the future of his life and his family's life, because, of course, he just was married and is expecting a baby. So there's no world under this dictatorship that he wants to live in. And so to use whatever energy or resources he has to reclaim those freedoms that were taken, is something that he's very committed to.
Ashley 1:40:36
Yeah, yeah. You know, I imagine that when the coup happened, it must have come as a very big shock to everybody. It's not what they were anticipating, however, the outcomes of a dictator rule is it's pervasive, you know, and everybody in the country knows that it'll affect every aspect of their lives. And so, you know, even though the youth are leading the protest, they're all age groups are engaged, whether they're professionals or laborers that are striking out of their jobs through nonviolent civil disobedience. They're they're all taking to the streets.
Host 1:41:13
Yeah. Right. And in responding to that question, another thing that really hit me profoundly, I think it was a question I asked later, where I, he had mentioned his life at that moment, having a good job stability, and living in the city, having a new family being supported and network of friends and family. And asking him about the difficulty of deciding to make a sacrifice to really put himself out in the streets, exposing themselves to danger and de risk. And asking about the mental process, he came in reaching that decision. And his answer was also just an incredibly profound moment for me and understanding more deeply what's happening in the mentality around it. And that's that he puts this in such a way that it's not really a sacrifice, because a sacrifice indicates implies that you have a choice, it implies that you could do this or this. But to do this, you have to sacrifice that. And that's actually not the way he's looking at this, he's not looking at this as a sacrifice of well, I can give this up or I can take this risk, or I can not do this. He's looking at it in the sense that if this continues on the path it's on currently, there's actually no life ahead. There's no opportunity, there's no possibility, there's no safety, there's no stability. So even if you're doing nothing, in a week, or a month, or a year or two years, you or a friend or a family member, for some reason, or another reason or no reason at all, you could lose everything, you could lose a job, you could lose a home, you could lose stability, you could lose something much more dear. And so for him involvement in this moment, is a necessity, because there is no other option. And I think, as I started as this, the impact of what he said, started to land on me. And even with the time I've spent in the country with the intimate friendships I have, this was kind of another level of understanding. And I immediately started to see the correlation between the this feeling of weight and tear and frustration from the past, in resisting it in the present moment, directly correlates with some of the analyses that we're seeing today of how long will this protest movement go
1:43:33
on. And,
Host 1:43:33
you know, maybe by analysis, I'm talking about outsiders really about scholars, or academics, or political study people or reporters or something, where when you don't have that depth of understanding about what people don't want to go back to, and why they don't want to go back to it. You can look at this moment. And this movement is something like, Well, you know, it's strong now. But how long can this last? And they need these kind of resources. And this part can be siphoned off, or you might be scared and afraid in this way. And this will, they'll respond here in that way, and really kind of a pessimistic view. And I think you can only really have that view when you don't understand the depth of the pain of not wanting to go back to this reality. And the bleakness of the possibility of moving into this reality. And what that would mean for life in living there for oneself and one's family and one's prospects. And I think, and this is why I'm I just think this is such an important message to get out there. And it's so good to hear from someone they're involved himself that is able to speak from his own words, his own experience, his own background, because if we listen clearly, if we're not caught up with our own analyses and what our projections and our what we think is going to happen in our opinions, if we're really listening, listening to him. His words have an enormous impact in terms of hearing how people are bringing this movement in this moment. So the more that we understand the depth of this background and experience, it informs us of what these people the motivations of what they're doing and why they're doing it. And how even when things get difficult and tough, and even dark and black, and really ugly, as we've already seen, that they're not going to be frightened so easily, because they know how things were. And there is nothing worth going back to that. And that is really some of the profound essence we get from taking a moment to hear, to tune share about his background, his thoughts. You know, it's
Ashley 1:45:49
interesting that you mentioned that, because I've also been witnessing that people in Myanmar as well as people outside of Jamar, especially those that are really connected to the people or have spent some time there are really going through a tough time right now. And I think partly that is because they have some understanding of the history of the military dictatorship, and understand that every initiative needs to be taken right now to to prevent more harm, to prevent more violence. And something else I was thinking about is that, you know, I think people in the West might actually be able to relate to the events happening in Jamar. It was just a month before the military coup, the US experience just a microcosm of, of what people are currently experiencing when with the capital. So yeah, it's a cause that people outside of your market can relate to, you know, I think we all value freedom, to freedom to vote, the right to have our votes counted, and freedom to live without fear from our own governments in the police force. So I think part of why, you know, this movement is is as powerful as it is, is because the dictatorship has been a reoccurrence in Myanmar, I think Justin mentioned that his his grandfather experienced military dictatorship under May when and his father under way, and now to turn his face with yet another military dictator. Now online and, and it was really clear that, that he's he's doing what he's doing because he doesn't want his his child to be faced with the same hardships that he and his, his father and his grandfather experienced.
Host 1:47:56
Right. So he's I hadn't got that before. He's actually not just talking about his present reality of what's happening in this moment, what happened to his father and his grandfather and all the way back. But in addition to this present moment, he's projecting onto any literally, I mean, he's has his child has not been born yet. It was, you know, maybe a month ago was conceived. And so he has this new life that he's now aware of, and is projecting into me and Mars, his interior Mars future, sorry, and into his unborn child's future, and is drawing this linkage between the life that his child will have with the history going all the way back to his grandfather. So that's quite a heavy thing to have to have to hold and wrap your mind around.
Ashley 1:48:45
Yeah, you know, I think you mentioned standing up that we're standing up now. And I find that really admirable, because, you know, maybe previous cooze led to protests and people standing up, but I'm not sure that they were as united as they are now. And it just seems to me like they're, they're really taking responsibility and accountability, and are gonna see this through.
Host 1:49:14
Right, and that, as you mentioned a little earlier, they're doing all that with a backbone of non violence. Mm hmm. Yeah. And that's really incredible because all all of this kind of heaviness that we're talking about all of this pain that's being held on to in this resistance and non engagement and disobedience. It's all happening under the umbrella of non violence and even when the horrors that are happening are engendering a certain harsh feelings within individuals. This is only natural you know, to tune saying that. After the death of a couple protesters one day you wanted to burn down the police station and what maturity to be able to recognize the depth of this sorrow and rage and then to wake up The next morning and reaffirm the commitment to this principle in spite of all else, I mean, it's really stunning.
Ashley 1:50:07
Yeah, it's a very basic principle, you know that they're abiding by. But on such a large scale. It's just, it's beautiful. The movement that should tune and others are currently involved in it really is founded on the basis of, you know, hate begets hate with an understanding that hate begets hate. Anger begets anger, violence begets violence. And so, so therefore, they're really sticking to non violence and, and peace. Because ultimately, that is what, what they want. That is the society that they want to live in.
Host 1:50:46
Yeah, right. It's an incredibly powerful principle. And I think I don't think it's really been properly understood and examined in this moment. And it's definitely been on my radar since we started doing some of these interviews and different guests have shared with me, including to tune in the ones before, how this principle has been informing their views and where it's coming from. And what's so interesting is that this is a principle that has a direct link, obviously, to the successful movements of Gandhi and Martin Luther King and Mandela, who were also committed to nonviolent principles in their mission. But of course, with this, these are coming. This is coming from a bedrock many people not not all, because it's a very diverse country. But for many and especially chiptune, this non violent principle is coming from a bedrock of Buddhist practice, a bedrock of Buddhist principles that are informing how to respond in this moment is, as you said, with the phrase that you brought up, hate begets hate. This is fundamental to understanding the law of karma and cause and effect and the society that one wants to live in, as well as the practical realities. That engaging in violence of any kind is just going to create a wasteland. And that's not the wasteland in anyone wants to live in, I have never seen such just an upbeat, optimistic, positive vibe, protest movement that we're seeing here, at least from the images that we're getting. And as exhausting as it must be, and it is, from talking to chiptune and hearing the pressures he's under. There's also a life and an energy and a belief in it. And that's all stemming from this Buddhist principle of non violence.
Ashley 1:52:34
I don't want to romanticize Myanmar too much, because I it is very close to my heart, and sometimes I have a tendency to romanticize it. But I think there is something to say for you know, the presence of the Buddhist teachings there over the last 2000 plus years. And so qualities like, you know, loving kindness, compassion, generosity, those sympathetic joy, caring for one another, you know, all of those things are very palpable there. And in you may have noticed, while you were there, you know, this tendency of people in your mark to relate to one another, even in their language. You know, just the closeness, whether they call you, you know, brother or sister or aunt uncle, even if you're not related. I think that there's just, that's really quite unique to me. I haven't really seen that elsewhere.
Host 1:53:35
Yeah, yeah. Right, of course. And that it's also good to recall here, just chiptunes background, he's not just a Burmese Buddhist, like, like so many in Myanmar, of course, not all it's a very diverse country. But he was educated in a monastery he lived for, I think it was six years as an assistant in a monastery, he. He also in turn, gave back to that Monastery by teaching and by helping those novices that were living there. And knowing him personally, I can't begin to tell you about his commitment to those to that monastery and the programs it does in the community that that he has. And let's also not forget that and this is very applicable to our platform and many of our audience that because of his outgoing nature and his English ability and his just engagement and kind of getting things done and making decisions, figuring out fixing problems. He was kind of this conduit between the monastery and the foreigners who started to come to practice there because as he mentioned, Lagos ADA was so revered, and the monastery he established was so respected. It wasn't just a place where local people in the community came to engage but it was also a place where people came from overseas to be able to purchase under him to be able to have a conducive environment and to to be around him. And when they ran into various forms of cross cultural difficulty or needing this or that chiptune was that bridge between the Burmese Buddhist world and these foreign, Yogi's and monastics who were on the path and and shih tzu and really played a pivotal role he describes in this talk, but I know much more from personal experience. He really played a pivotal role in helping the spiritual journeys of a lot of practitioners who came.
Ashley 1:55:37
That's amazing. Yeah, it sounds like he's, he's really actively engaging with, with the teachings that, that he received through his time at the monastery, and just growing up in a Buddhist culture. There's actually something that that go, and he says that I really appreciate and and it's that seal is threefold. Have you heard this before?
Host 1:56:00
Please, if I have, please tell the listeners.
Ashley 1:56:03
Okay, so, so I think I'm remembering correct remembering it correctly. But he says, you know, the first fold is that you don't commit the wrong action. Right. And the second one is, you encourage others not to commit wrong actions. And lastly, you don't take delight when others do commit wrong actions. And so I just find that with tune and others are doing right now, it really is based in loving kindness and care for others. And, and it sounded to me like they have a lot of faith in the fact that doing good actions lead to good results. And so as as trying as these times are right now, they're very, very committed to that.
Host 1:56:47
Yeah, now that you say that, I do remember going to be saying that I think it might have been on the 20 day course, somewhere in the discourse, but I could be wrong. But I also remember being really moved by that myself. And I think that's also why it's so interesting to try to understand what's going on right now from this Buddhist perspective. Because when one is familiar with these doctrines and, and insights born from meditative practice, I think there's ways to see more deeply into what's actually happening in the protest, that can make these connections that maybe aren't quite so obvious to people that are coming from different backgrounds.
Ashley 1:57:25
Yeah, you know, I think for most of us that are living in the West, that are familiar with meditation, we, you know, it can be quite easy for us to practice because we live in relatively stable conditions. Whereas, you know, to tune in others in Newmar, that are familiar with the Buddhist teachings and meditation practice. They're really being forced to, to apply their practice in much more complex ways. And I think that in doing so, they're getting the opportunity to sharpen their discernment and really apply that evil noble path. Can you imagine millions of people in Myanmar moved by the Buddhist teachings of loving kindness, generosity, you know, as they're out protesting 1012 hours a day, risking their lives, and really standing up to, to greed, hatred and delusion? Can you imagine millions of people that have been taught the Buddhist teachings or have at least have been familiar with it in their upbringing and in their culture, using using that to power a movement that could potentially save millions of lives? You know, one of the most amazing things that I've witnessed with the protests is that there's literally millions of people out in the streets, that are applying what they've learned in through their culture through their religion of you know, metta, generosity, I've seen kids handing out snacks to soldiers and people trying to engage in dialogue with with the soldiers handing out flowers picking up trash. It's really amazing how they're standing up to delusion, greed and hatred.
Host 1:59:29
Right. I think this is really an unprecedented moment. I think that it's going to take a lot of time to really appreciate how powerful what we're seeing is and what it tells us, not just about me and Mara, but about protest movement, protest culture, in the history of the world, because this is what we're seeing now is in line with some of the non violent movements of the past but it's rooted in different principles and in religion, and ideology that is homegrown to that culture and to those people. And to see it in action, it just takes your breath away, you know, to see, it's like this lifetime of cultivation that people have worked towards inclining their mind towards these wholesome qualities, that now in the most dangerous moment, the most tense moment of having to bring those out, that's their only tool against a trained military, you know, that that is willing to stop at nothing. And those qualities of mind are the tools that they have. And we're seeing this on display. And it is, you know, it is something that, I don't know how else to say it, it just, it just takes your breath away watching what they're doing day after day, sitting here with those images and those stories coming. And being affected by, by what we're seeing by what I'm seeing, and just wondering, what can I give back? What can I do from here,
Ashley 2:01:07
you know, I've had some people say to me, you know, you must be having a really difficult time you have family there. And what I find myself thinking is, it's not even about my family, you know, and I think this really speaks to the movement, and that they're not necessarily only thinking about their families, they're thinking about the villages, you know, in other states, thinking about people that they don't know, strangers, innocent strangers, you know, in the millions, that can be very negatively impacted by what's happening. So really, their only weapon is to band together, and they're doing it non violently, which is beautiful. So there's actually this, this really popular story that I heard as a child in Myanmar, and I imagine that most people out there on the streets right now probably heard it as well. And, and basically, in the story, there's three sons and a father hands, the first son a stick, and you ask them to break it. And, you know, he easily breaks the stick. Then he said, he gives the second son two sticks, and asked them to break the two sticks. And you know, he does it relatively easily. And then lastly, he gives the third son a whole bundle of sticks and says here break these and, you know, obviously, he's not able to. And so, so I've just been reminded of that story so much in seeing the protests happening.
Host 2:02:40
Yeah, right. And I think that's good to keep in mind that a lot of the people in the protest probably heard the same story. And that's probably animating their thought as well. So I think at this time, as we who are outside of Myanmar, but connected one way or another to the country, and the people are hearing the stories, both the inspiring stories of what they're doing, and as well as the darker stories of what they're up against, I think what comes to our mind quite a bit is what is our role? And what can we do? I know, that's certainly been the case for me. And sometimes it can feel a bit helpless to hear all this information and feel that there's only a limit of how much we can do. And I think another profound thing that chitin said, that really struck me hard that I've been thinking a lot about this week, when I asked him this question, what it what is it that we can do this? Here's this person that's engaged in the middle of these protests, putting himself on the line bringing Buddhist principles of non violence in the most difficult of situations? and asking them, how can we support you? His resounding answer was just to know what's going on. Combined with giving emotional support for the protesters saying that, you know, it is tiring work to go out and to protest day after day, it is hard kind of laughing. Like, it's harder than I thought it was gonna be, I didn't know it was gonna be like this hard and this stressful. And when you do that, there's only so much gas in the tank that you have. And you have to do things to redouble your efforts and your motivation and reaffirm your principles and everything else. And they're doing all that really fine on their own. But they are in a difficult state and his one plea was just the value of people overseas, showing their emotional support how much that did to give them that does to give them energy and momentum and power going forward. So that hearing him say that was really kind of shocking to me actually, because I didn't from my side, it just didn't seem like enough just didn't seem like like that was really as important as he was telling me it was but since hearing him say that, and again, this is why it's so valuable to hear from those people directly that are involved in this what they're telling us what their their reality is. They're speaking to us. And the reality that chiptune spoke to us at that moment, was in the incredible value and importance of people from overseas being involved by showing their emotional support and their encouragement as much as possible.
Ashley 2:05:17
Yeah, it sounded to me like it, it means the world to them to have some sense that there are people outside of this, that see us that hear us that support us that believe us, you know, or believe in us very least. It sounds like it really is providing a lot of energy to the movement, even though they are being accountable and in doing everything they can on their end.
Host 2:05:43
So I think for listeners hearing this, one of the big takeaways from this episode, is in that way that you can support people like to tune in others if you feel so moved. Of course, there's other ways to be involved, you can give donations to different organizations that are doing work, you can volunteer in certain efforts and write to your local politicians in whatever country you're in and encourage them to take action. We don't want to discount any of those actions. But when we heard from a protester himself, who's on the front lines using these Buddhist principles in his work, he really emphasized the importance of emotional support. And so for those listening, if you have friends in Myanmar right now, reach out to them, talk to them daily, let them know that you care, let them know that you're concerned, let them know that they can talk to you when they need to, if they if they want to process something, if they're just engaged in very difficult feelings that they don't know what to do with that you're someone safe that's there that they can engage with, and that in return, that you know what they're going through, and you care and you support them. If you don't have Burmese friends, find some online permies are really easy to get to meet and to talk to you and to be friendly with. And they're very interested in meeting foreigners and practicing their English. So if you don't have Burmese friends, go to your favorite social media platform and see who's talking about what and just make some online friendships. Because even though it might not seem like a lot on your end, it's a heck of a lot on their end.
Ashley 2:07:20
Yes, exactly. Joe, I have personally been benefiting for from people reaching out to me, knowing that, you know, I have roots in Myanmar and connections there. And it's been just so, so helpful to hear from people and just knowing that others care about this, too. And it's really quite an opportunity for us to unite behind millions of people in their efforts.
Host 2:07:48
Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot there. This was a really powerful one. And we'll close there. So thank you, Ashley, so much for being with us with your first touch. Hopefully, it wasn't too painful. I thought you did. Great.
Ashley 2:08:02
Thanks, Joshua. Well, I really appreciate your commitment and all your efforts in raising awareness about what's happening in Newmar. And I know that this means the world to the people there if they if they were to know what you were doing. So thank you so much.
Host 2:08:25
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