Transcript: Episode 27: Sebastien Le Normand
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Sebastien Le Normand, which appeared on March 1, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
Hey everyone, it's great to have you along for this episode of the Insight Myanmar podcast. Let me take a moment to give you some background on our show. Historically, the origins of the meditation and mindfulness movement that have swept the world can be traced in 19th and 20th century Burma, now officially known as Myanmar, and still today in the 21st century, the Buddhist teachings of liberation animate a contemporary generation of Dhamma seekers in the small Southeast Asian country. And this podcast series we engage in in depth discussions with a wide range of practitioners, foreigners and local Burmese, lifelong monastics and lay practitioners, including author's scholars, meditators, teachers, pilgrims and more, to highlight the depth and diversity of Buddhist practice in the golden land, and explore how the Dhamma is being put into practice by those seriously on the path. That is our mission. And we hope that the show that follows gives you a fuller tastes of our aim. Let's get into that now.
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A
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Da Da Da Da Da Da Da, da, da da,
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da da.
Host 01:57
Sebastian was first. That's right. Sebastian was actually the inaugural interview conducted for Insight Myanmar. Although you're likely not listening to his interview as the podcast first episode, Sebastian was the first to experience the new recording studio, the first transcript that our sound engineer processed and the first interview that I conducted, so I'm grateful that he willingly was a guinea pig for us and threw himself into our little Dhamma experiment without really having any idea what we were about because well, there was nothing before him. I had met Sebastian several years earlier when he and his partner asked me to help arrange a pilgrimage in Myanmar. I ran into him again last year while I was leading another pilgrimage, with Sebastian wandering into a secluded cigar and hills monastery just as we were taking off, he was looking for a quiet place to meditate for an extended time. And that's likely what Sebastian is doing as this episode goes to air because soon after taking the time to sit with us, he left on yet another private pilgrimage to meet several teachers and take his own retreats here in Myanmar. Actually, just minutes before preparing the script, I saw a social media post of Sebastian sitting cross legged in a large Dhamma Hall seeming The only foreigner with scores of Burmese Yogi's behind him. I think Sebastian offers a refreshing voice as an on the ground meditator is he is perhaps more similar to many listeners than other guests who have come before such as those who have pursued lifelong renunciation, rigorous academic study, or teachers in their own right. Sebastian shows what is essentially possible for any meditator anywhere, check out of your normal flow of life for an extended period, put on a rucksack and bought a jet plane to Burma and hopped around the golden land as a dhama been soaking up the wisdom of a deeply devout Buddhist culture is interviewed. This represents a kind of armchair pilgrim for the listener, and perhaps it will inspire some to get up off that armchair and eventually get up to some of the sights that Sebastian describes here. And although this was our very first interview on Insight, Myanmar, we hope it will not be your last with us. I'm really happy to be talking now with Sebastian and Oman. And he's just come to me and Mar a couple days ago, I think it's his third trip here. Is that right?
Sebastien Le Normand 03:57
That time? Yes, in Myanmar,
Host 03:59
third time. Yeah. He's a Frenchman who is currently living in Canada, and taking extensive trips across Southeast Asia to pursue meditation and spirituality. So wanted to hear a little bit about his travels and his experiences and the golden land. So first, I was just wondering if you could share a little bit about your background and what initially brought you to wanting to pursue meditation and spirituality.
Sebastien Le Normand 04:25
I would say there have been two main stages in my life around that and it started as a young teenager. I come also from the martial arts angle. And so I would say karate. So that led me to discover Zen Buddhism, and felt quite impregnated by that and I started to read about Buddhism, Buddhist teaching, discovering the history of the martial arts, to the kung fu to China and back to Buddha Dharma and back to Buddha and that inspired me, so Murcia decided to meditate on my own as a teenager. And that worked really, really well. And I got many good results. So that's actually quite my life all along until somebody mentioned Vipassana to me when I was in Canada, and then it still took me 10 years to actually make the step. But then I've my first retreat, it went really, really well. So then it was, I was set for the demo path. Very clearly from the first. The first retreat, exactly reminding me things that I had discovered on my own as a teenager and yeah, are extraordinary, the worst. When was your
Host 05:39
first retreat?
Sebastien Le Normand 05:40
generated as on 13?
Host 05:42
Okay, this was in the gonca tradition. Yes, yeah. And so do you still practice martial arts today?
Sebastien Le Normand 05:48
Or is it not per se anymore? Yeah, it's almost like a move down to less of the outer activity and more on the inner side. Yeah. Right. Right.
Host 06:01
So you say you've just, you took a going COVID passion, of course, in 2013. And that really worked for you. So I guess I'm curious if you could share how you settled on this practice, why you felt this practice worked for you and what you've been able to get out of it.
Sebastien Le Normand 06:17
I would say that, exactly from back in the day as a teenager to have my own kind of principles in general in life. And one big one is that like when things are the most simple, and I find often, when you do the most important, the most efficient. And really enjoy to hear that through that the traditional Vipassana ongoing mix emphasizes a bit on that this is the most simple, the most simple practice, you know, no rights, no rituals, no, just observe the breath as also, when we say at all would have no influence that way with his own technique of just a breath, a breath. And so I really enjoy the fact that it was focusing on the most simple way of practicing. And that appealed to me and exactly, again, I have my own karma that, you know, was meant to lead me to that, but then it worked really well for me. So that's why, right,
Host 07:11
right, and so you've also chosen to prioritize spiritual practice, and also the travel that you undertake to support that practice. And so I'm also curious how it's quite a big commitment to take frequent travels to be able to go to rural and distant locations to pursue spirituality, and how are you able to set up your life and structure your life so that you're able to support yourself and also support these travels,
Sebastien Le Normand 07:39
would see that going, I wouldn't say that, then that works. And so after my first retreat, some changes happen in my life. And basically, some certain people showed up right there. And as a fellow very committed at once to the path, then Mia, life puts some people on your path, and then you attract certain kind of people who really want to feel that you are really committed, and then they would really want to help you. And that motivated kuroshio people to take the Vipassana course, for themselves too. And they also felt that they benefited from it. So they wanted to give it back to me. So some people started to want to support me. And also, as they felt that I had that strong commitment. And I also felt the poor to actually come to the places of origin or source of the practice, the feeling that that could really inspire or emphasize or reinforce, you know, the, the practice and the feelings and the depth. So I wanted to come to those famous places the pilgrimage. And it worked again, as I mean that it really, I think, it affected me for the good. And then people saw me coming back, you know, we more like a glow on the face. And then they're happy to see that. And so they still want to support me that way to give me the possibility to travel and have free time to come again to these places.
Host 09:17
Yeah, and so kind of a follow up question is many Western meditators. They regularly take courses, but they also pursue their own jobs and livelihood in the area where they're from, and just integrate that into your life. And it seems like you've made a life decision to go beyond us. And to want to pursue travel to remote places, sometimes difficult travels, sometimes places where you don't speak the language or know what to do. And sometimes in an environment that's pretty secluded, or rigid. And so you've kind of gone beyond just continuing your life with the benefit of practice. But it sounds like you've reoriented reoriented your life to encompass where practice leads you so I'm curious also So how this decision came about and how it's been for you.
Sebastien Le Normand 10:04
I would say that, again, since I was young, I felt that well, not so connected that society and the way the system works. And I've had quite a bit detached, but also, I felt like people were caught up in the rat race and all that stress around, and some often nonsense. So and I was about what I always call the real deal thing about things. And I felt like, I don't mind to take chances or to take risk over that. And also, there's a couple of things like, after the retreats, and more retreats, then I started to become much more aware of my karma or karmic energies since I was born. And then as in hindsight, I started to see the signs in my life, that made me feel different in that sense, and being able to there and basically, that's the thing that I've heard since I was quite young, from different people, so many friends, other people are like, wow, you, you have the courage to do that, take that decision, I wouldn't do that I wouldn't be able to take that decision. But for me, it's about the real deal. And in one way, again, as far as connection to Buddhism and the Buddha, you know, there was, for me Actually, again, that simple sentence that we all know, from Buddha's enlightenment night, you know, what he stated before sitting there, have the similar mindset in life, you know, it's like, That's it, I'm committed to that no matter what, for people, whatever was gonna happen. That's what I'm gonna do, right. And so it takes that kind of a very focused and strong mindset to to say, this is what I'm going to do, this is what it's gonna be no matter what happens.
Host 11:51
And for people who might not know that statement, you're referring to, can you paraphrase it for us?
Sebastien Le Normand 11:56
How did he go again? Well, you know, he was on the path to discover the real, ultimate truth. And he felt that he was missing just a couple of things. And he said, okay, tonight, I'm going to sit in and meditate until I discovered that my truth, no matter what happens in my body might break into pieces in my book, I bones, my charter, which again, is, you know, could be paraphrasing statement of me as we're in tight right there, right now. There's something bigger than Miss discover. And it's kind of that readiness, that mindset that that helps actually, to get you beyond the usual ways of living. And, and I have had that, since I was a teenager the same way. Actually, again, there was many, there were many situations where I was like, you know, not afraid to die doesn't matter. This what I'm gonna do. And that might set brings you a lot back. And that's what it is covered them. how the mind works in that sense, when you have that readiness of the mind. But that's what makes you so often more unusual, because, you know, many people are not ready to commit to that extent, to some goals or some decisions. Oh, yeah,
Host 13:22
yeah, that's wonderful. Let's come back to that in a moment, but to go to kind of some of your travels. So I'm curious when you first came to Asia, where were you went and what the reasons for the travel was.
Sebastien Le Normand 13:35
So first, it was the period the pilgrimage in northern India.
Host 13:40
And partiality for those who might not know is is a is an organization that disseminates the words of the Buddha and closely connected to the growing organization. So you joined the party it pilgrimage in India.
Sebastien Le Normand 13:53
Yeah. So it's mostly in northern India, and then the south part of Nepal, where the Buddha was born in rubini kapilvastu.
Host 14:02
So that was your first encounter with Asia? How did that go?
Sebastien Le Normand 14:07
We can say it was interesting, interesting experience, it was difficult in you and definitely a good culture shock in some ways. But you could see there were two aspects. And actually, I don't know if I can say that now. But you know, just watch another documentary that has been around lately or on the Buddha and going katholischen and dimensioned, some things around that as much as it was also going God's mission to bring back Vipassana to India, the birthplace from the Buddha, then we took actually, but Buddhism, but still India is Hindu and Hinduism. And there is a as much as there are similarities there also some major differences. So that would be the two aspects of that. Those mixed feelings basically. It's nice to be and to go to those famous displaces, there is a vibration there, especially, but Gaia. And anyway, the main ones that kushinagar also weigh went into pairing in Bana. But understand timing, this is all blended in India and Hindu culture. So you deal with a lot of noise, a lot of people around you after you and referring to the documentary that I made 30 years maybe mean that into Islam has, as it's believed to include the Buddha as one reincarnation of the God, but then at the same time discarded really Buddhism for so many centuries, right? for a reason. So you bring back Buddhism to its birthplace, at the same time, you're in a country that doesn't care so much about Buddhism, and you feel that really well, also. So it was a bit of a mixed feeling in that sense. And maybe as a warning, for some people, just like the guy did at the time. So you come from that place, after often, having done those retreats in those nice, comfortable setting, and it's quiet. And you you feel committed to become a pilgrim to those famous Buddhist places, oh, I'm gonna be there and meditate with the vibration of their own. And then suddenly, you come to a place where there's a lot of activities, and a lot of noise. And people are trying to sell you things are around and stuff. So be prepared that it won't be just like a beautiful, quiet spot to meditate on those famous sites. Yeah, so
Host 16:41
so if India was your first touch with coming to Asia, then soon after that, you came to me and mark for the first time and what was your What was your initial feeling and experience of being in Myanmar,
Sebastien Le Normand 16:52
there was a sense of coming home. Exactly. For that difference of feeling, oh, this is what the true general Buddhist culture is about. The attitude of the people were so different. And then we could start to expand on you know, how Buddhism turns into a religion and how people are conditioned from birth to believe anymore to be have certain ways. But there's definitely a very different attitude in the behavior of the people who Buddhists versus another country where it's not the main religion. And there was a lot to be appreciated over. In an I know, dedication that the people have, such as well, there were, I know this, but you know, the way they you see them, I mean, it's conditioning from childhood, right, but still, the way they all will provide for the monks, for example, are morons are so popular, I mean, and they will bow so easily, and they will kneel and you know, they will respect so much, again, as a difference to India. You don't see that in India, people will just so easily just, you know, be so in reverence to some other beings in that sense, or to bow so easily. And just like, be so humble. Yeah, that's the word or so which is a word of the day to use a lot in the practice itself, which can be another topic, but you know, being in the surrender, surrendering part when you practice Buddhism, which has to do with humility, and it's nice to see many, many people that have can be very easily humble, also coming from the west, where humanity doesn't take that much.
Host 18:43
You reference, the impact of seeing the humility and the reverence towards monks that Burmese people showed to monastics and that had an effect on you. And I guess I'm curious what effect it had on you. So what was the that was the outer action that was taking place that you were witnessing, but internally? Why was that significant? What What was your reaction in effect of witnessing and experiencing this, this happening?
Sebastien Le Normand 19:09
I think it's because it was relating to the way I always saw it and considered what the Buddha's teaching and and Buddhist value were about. Since I was a young teenager again, at the time, I had already that training and had that mind discipline, and immediately was aware that I was using a lot as a teenager that I felt was lacking around. And so suddenly being in a culture where no one was the feeling beforehand, even though I hadn't been to Asia, that I would say, Oh, I think you know, Asian people are easier to have less ego to be less ego based in their behavior in many situation. So I was somewhat looking forward to that. And then when I came, it happened in that sense, in many situations, and I really appreciated that that ones were related to, as from my own Practice from back in the days and what I kind of would have expected or demanded from some other people that would be more humble, more respectful, you know, to be sent to certain people, you know, the proper teachers and stuff, so that I could witness there. And that's exactly what I related to. So I really appreciate it to, to, to be inside a culture and an environment where people know, to just respect and listen, and, and be humble, because that's what I always felt was a big element in a practice that also help.
Host 20:39
Right? And that kind of leads to the next question, which you kind of touched upon, but there might be more to it. How have your perspectives on Buddhism in general and your own meditation practice been affected or influenced by the time you spend in Myanmar, the three trips community,
Sebastien Le Normand 20:55
it has influence very positively. It has strengthened the commitment, it has given me a bit of extra depth in some areas. Exactly that when I come to some manasi, the monks and the mostly the more advanced man, can you see the commitment? Yeah, it feel the vibration radiates around, and it just compels you, if you're already on the path property that way, it, it kind of compelled you to go deeper further along. And I think there's a reason why a few Westerners, you know, when they come here, and the ones who are dedicated, they feel like being ordained for a short period of two, and three to sign in that way. So for me, it was just confirming or is, as I meant, there was a sense of coming home in some ways. And then there was a sense of strengthening the commitment, confirming that it has my path and to see the level of dedication of many, many people around here.
Host 22:07
So one of the motivations of this podcast and some of the other kind of Dhamma work and information I've done is to want to extend the conversation to people that have never come here that have thought about coming or or wanting to know kind of what it's like here, what the experience is, and you've come and spent three different visits here. And you've experienced a lot of different things. I'm sure there'd be meditators listening to this, who are thinking of their own trip and trying to imagine the experience. And so I wanted to ask you to share some some stories and anecdotes of your, your experiences before we were talking more in general terms, but I think it'd be neat to hear some some actual stories of of how things have unfolded. So the first thing I wanted to ask is maybe some story that something had happened that inspired you some inspiring moment, something that you you took away some lesson of inspiration.
Sebastien Le Normand 23:01
And I mentioned that, you know, the first time I was here, it was also because you were my guide. So you could have a say around that. And but I mean, maybe you would remember, but for me, as I mean, you know, as we know that that third party is on camera. And so there are signs basically in life that way. And I would say that there were a few times when we go to some places, and you were like, Well, I'm not sure, you know, this doesn't really happen usually, or this is rare, but you know, it might let us call it C and then if it's up, and then we go to that place, and you know that, oh, that's the day that actually there Oh, don't take the Buddha relax out. But then Actually, today, the person is there and then he's willing to take them out, you know, for you to meditate and the Buddha or relax or something like that. So then we went also to IMC, which is international meditation center that set you back in created in Yangon, where he made the pagoda. And I always felt that that was also a special connection to surge you back in beyond going big. And well, when there there was this old man, you said was one of the few left of the old students from surge you back in. And he also felt like proposing us to open the pagoda and to get inside and and see the center of it because I was going to ask you do you know if it's something that's easy to do usually or not? What's the deal opened? The old pagoda know people
Host 24:43
know it's not easy. It happens but it's not.
Sebastien Le Normand 24:47
So different events like that. synchronicities that again, comic signs in some ways.
Host 24:56
Right How about a moment where some kind of learning takes place? some insight that happened based on some encounter or conversation or experience. And the two prior visits as there is there some some kind of moment of awakening, you can share?
Sebastien Le Normand 25:11
Yes, in some ways, one of them being what we just talked about for the IMC. But exactly because of what was already on the path with that awareness from my own past karma. They were actually somewhat things that I secretly expected. And I was like, if this happens, that would be a really good sign and confirmation. So there was that one thing about AMC because of that connection, to back in the day I have. And so the fact that we got a load to get inside the pagoda, and see the center sell way back in was, for me was very, very strong. Again, it's just a sense of emphasizing reinforcing the whole thing. Another thing exactly in the same line, because it's has to do with saju. Back in, was that back then, the first time I saw a picture was Halo, I felt also a very strong connection to a blue. And I always thought that we could go to intervene, and to his monastery, both in Chelsea, were in a cave that he meditated, and then at his cootie, in a in his monastery. And that's the thing that we didn't do in the first time, which kind of was a bit disappointed that we couldn't just do it, because I felt a strong pull to go to 20 minutes to be able to meditate basically, ideally, in weeaboo saddles, cootie. And last winter that I went there, that was really strong one doing that, again, reinforce the same way as as kind of expected. But for me, it was a very strong experience. We do look really high up towards weeaboo. And exactly again, because he's the one who was famous for having the most simple party as possible yet being another hand. So yeah, so those two in the lineage, you know, going to IMC being able to go inside the pagoda were back in was and then to meditate in weaboos. Hello, scooty they really settled things pretty strong and deep foundations. Right? Right.
Host 27:28
Yeah. How about some kind of anecdote or story that something unexpected happens? Something kind of funny, something confusing out of the ordinary?
Sebastien Le Normand 27:40
That's what I'm very bad at those beings. That when I'm put on this book, sure, sure. I think that Please, I'm like,
27:47
Yeah,
Sebastien Le Normand 27:48
I cannot come up with angles.
Host 27:50
I mean, I have, I have led a lot of people on pilgrimages, sometimes something really special happens that everyone feels but other times. One of my favorite things to do after a pilgrimage is ended is to ask people, you know, what was the best moment, the most inspiring moment? What's something that, you know, really stands out. And pilgrims often say things I didn't even notice, you know, just because it everyone's personal connections and feelings and moments of significance come and kind of unexpected way. So to give one example, I asked one meditator who went her most profound experience, and she told the story of seeing nuns in a line and making eye contact with one of the Burmese nuns and just breaking into a smile. And I don't know if anyone else noticed that experience. But for her, it was extremely profound, to make eye contact and share what she felt was a very deep and sincere smile and wish of goodwill, with no words with a person that didn't necessarily speak the same language. And that nearly brought her to tears, just that moment of connection and sentimentality and feeling. And this was also a meditator that was, was a little bit nervous, coming to a poor country and not knowing what to expect. And so to have this moment of a deep connection to a nun wearing robes who didn't speak the same language, just by a smile, and a look, was one of the most significant moments of our trip. And so it's always fun to hear you know, that sometimes there's not they're not things you expect. There's something that from someone's own background and experience strikes them in a deep way that it is one you know, wonderful to hear and to know, you know, what, what effect that had on them?
Sebastien Le Normand 29:31
Yeah, what I was trying to think through things at the same time, and then it depends who you ask, you know, so but maybe something kind of funny, but maybe still, you know, for each main teacher in our lineage in the grand tradition. We went to a pure way to G place and it was also really nice to be able to meditate in his own little corner corner of the monastery there in his own Little chamber there and then. But then there was a group of people meditating there. And then there was this woman who really broke into the creditor personal crisis, and there was a lot of screaming and crying and stuff. So that was a kind of interesting to see how other people were trying to deal with that, you know, we, we don't really witness that in the West. And so but it's a different culture. And people are, in one way more in tune and more emotional about things again, more like a straight out instinctive thing. And so that was a interesting moment. And yeah, that that compound, close to monywa, from lady Santos disciple, that was pretty impressive. That was something. Yeah, it was we added. So it's almost like a entertainment park of Buddhism, we will kind of structures and architecture and, and buildings. And that was a, that was interesting. But I would say it was also a powerful experience to go to this monastery and the cave. lady said, Oh, yeah, that mountain with that view, and yeah, pretty inspiring to a little funny situation, you know, as much as again, this is a Buddhist culture in general, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the way we expect it from the west. And we have, again, some preconceived ideas, how things should look or what Buddhism is about how Buddhists should be, and monks, especially we, you know, again, people have robes, and we have an expectation to see them this way or that way. And then we went to that place where there was not executive care was similar to the gorge cave on a mountain. And there was this monk, they're missing a lot of teeth, you know, and they have the betternet. And it was smoking. That was interesting, you know, little insight into Okay, there are different aspects to the Buddhist culture and how Buddhism can look like in a supposedly, with Buddhist culture. And it was interesting to see that makuta smile others and was chatty. And he was smoking and No. So that was another thing that,
Host 32:11
yeah, great. So you've talked about some of the aspiring moments and some of the interest of what drove you to the country and being moved by the generosity towards monks. But overall, this is a very traditional Buddhist culture, from top down going back centuries, it's a Buddhist religion, Buddhist culture in Myanmar. And so I'm also curious, coming from a background of just doing pure meditation, and having meditation being the driving force, what it's been like being in a Burmese Buddhist culture. So you've, you've talked about coming from a background of meditation and the interest in coming to me and more based on the meditation practice, and some of the inspiration of being in Myanmar in terms of the reverence and the humility towards monks. But it's also a Buddhist culture and a Buddhist religion here. So I'm curious about what it's been like being in a country that doesn't just have these kind of small moments of inspiration and learning, but kind of the wider, bigger Buddhist culture, how that's how that's influenced you. And
Sebastien Le Normand 33:15
I would say, just like, in general, in life, our existence is of a duality. So there's always the pros and cons. So it's basically the, if you have to make somewhat an opinion about something, you know, not being equanimous, but say, okay, there is positive and negative, that's where also we see a way of life has become a religion. But again, it's, we can also go more into details of explaining your definition of words, right, or play with words and definition, because originally, of the proper definition of the word religion, you know, which is the unity and that's kind of what it looks like some time, but at the same time, now, we are talking more on a pragmatic level, about organized religion aspect. And then on the other hand, that would come on, on the side where you can feel that Yeah, it's a bit too much. You know, it's simple for me, because in the sense that Buddhism, the path, and the teachings are actually about liberation. So you work towards liberation from conditioning. While exactly when you witness organized religion, it's all about conditioning from birth and the condition. So you can see that from the young for the young people, the only repeat what they are told, you know, they don't know better than that. So you can see that it's organized religion. And that's something that you can have a little aversion, feeling against, because you see that all those people, as much as I appreciate when it's actually from a respect point of view, it's also from a very conditioned point of view. And you can see that it's not them being free from that condition mine, that, you know, they make the decision or you know, to behave that way. It is because they have been conditioned too, to behave that way. And that's where you can feel that it's a bit too much. And it's especially in like in any organized religion, but then especially when you talk about Buddhism, which is known as the path to liberation from conditioning, then to see so many people behaving in a very conditioned way, thinking and feeling that they're doing the right thing is like, a bit on there. To me, you can say, is that, right?
Host 35:30
Yeah. And there have been some great Burmese sodas and teachers that have criticized aspects of Burmese Buddhist culture, you know, maganda, don't say it as one and Oxford, say it another who have looked at, you know, some of the traditional and contemporary Burmese Buddhist practices, and some who say it was another and have kind of called out their own culture and saying, you know, you're you're, you're not really going far enough. And you're not really taking the message as deep as you can. So certainly, I think that's a an authentic and genuine response. Yeah, yeah. So finally, to close, I just wanted to talk a little bit about your own work, because you've written a book yourself and self published and you also speak on your own insights, and you've shared those on YouTube. And we'll give at the end, we'll we'll give those titles so people can find it. The first question I have is, it seems like nature has played a big role in your work you you produced a book where half the book was just photographs of Canadian countryside. And so I'm just curious the role that nature has played in your practice,
Sebastien Le Normand 36:32
in some ways, the biggest role and the biggest inspiration, because that happens since childhood, again, in a way of not feeling that you fit in the system, not feeding your own family, not feeding in your own culture, not feeding in your own school system, which always seems so big nonsense and you start to lose taste for life in some ways, and you're trying to find a meaning to things, then that's part of the signs or whether we're talking about karmic energy or karma and different different different signs in your life that you can you get in hindsight, then, yeah, you know, often people in that situation start to find refuge in nature for you, we have the refuge in Buddha refuge in Dhamma refuge in Sangha, but for me actually had that as in my own ways, as a refuge in Buddha, as we are told is not exactly you know, in the person as a Buddha, but in your Buddha nature. Well, when I felt like that, as a kid, I felt like I feel like I've just counting on myself I cannot count on anybody else cannot count on any human because they are very, you know, dual beings and very unreliable. And yeah, not a lot of nonsense of this society that I don't relate to. So, then I felt in nature is really not being about the real deal things, then I feel like nature is the real deal thing that we have the real ways of being and again, in Buddhism, or at least in this tradition, we use the word law of nature. And I felt those are the real rules that apply that makes sense versus the laws and rules of the society that were nonsense to me. So I felt refuge in Dharma in nature, where I felt it was real life real things, real ways of being real values, respectable values there and the Sangha would be done again detaching like many people from the human society and find more refusing to with animals so I used to hang out more with animals and how they can very special moments and contact with wildlife. When we gentleman what I relate a lot towards is you can talk on the other hand about you know Totem animal in other cultures, you know, in First Nation culture and stuff but since I was a kid, I had a rather strong attraction towards and I've had a few encounters with some wars, but then also observing the eagle in the sky soaring and circling You know, it was very inspiring for me that always felt the appeal of being higher up in the mountain. And we had an example anecdote is like, so not fitting even in your own family in and we start to have conversation with my dad and we are you in a huddle those very clear ideas, which actually a Buddhist values that didn't fit in my French culture. And then we had this conversation and my dad was like, Well, anyway, enough of your own weird fetal Sophie's as going, I would say, but people you know, to those people that just feels ofis for me, it was very real and very pragmatic and very scientific, or rational. But so we had this argument to the conversation and then Timothy might that would be Oh, Anyway, enough of your ways of looking at us who we are then you should maybe just become a monk one day and just go in a cave. See, I was told that as a teenager, so and that was felt the appeal since then, to also spend time in nature high up in the mountains, cave city. That was very appealing. To me, already back then so so have you been a monk in a cave yet? Not the monk, but I've been in a cave. But I would say that at some point, let's say with my deepest experience, where everything became very clear, then at that moment is like, mommy just has been me, as well become a monk anyway. Right then because it's so clear, or the full detachment from everything and worldly things. And when you experience it from within, and it's almost like, yeah, it's, um, it just as well, I've had that feeling at that moment. But then I wanted to be realistic about certain things and meant that I was still should still a person for a while anyway, for certain reasons. And exactly, to experience more and have more to share in a way of relating to worldly things to other people. So I can keep on having my life experience worldly experience, so that I can, when I explain things to people, they can relate because I can explain or give specific examples of when you have a worldly life. And you can relate to and then compare to what I've experienced on the other side. So it makes it easier for people to understand the difference.
Host 41:18
Right? Right. So another thing I noticed in your book, when I was looking through is that you often reference addiction comes up a lot in your writing. And so I'm wondering if you can describe what is your definition of addiction, by the way that you mean it and what role that you feel addiction plays on the spiritual path.
Sebastien Le Normand 41:38
So addiction, yes, to some people, that's when we start to get into the provoking words, wording of things or, but to some people when we have started talking about, you know, meditation or Dharma and stuff. And I can be pretty blunt sometimes because as going, like, I'm not into discussing philosophies, you know, it's people like to debate and argue, but ultimately, it's either, you know, when you have experienced and you know, then you'd like to go into theories and philosophies. But I'd like to say that the human mind works by addiction, actually. And basically, everybody is an addict. And it goes back to the dependent origination, which is a big thing, you know, in Buddhism, and Buddha's discovery and teachings. And that's exactly connected to karma, in some ways. So the big word at the end, that keeps us rolling in samsara, is craving and clinging, or craving and clinging, basically, is addiction. So you know, you have a sensations that you are addicted to, and you just want them to be repeated. And as the word means, you know, sensation, it has to do with the senses. So, any kind of sense experience, people develop some kind of addiction one way or the other to them or an aversion. But I mean, you we all have, and live by addiction, in some ways, to various sense experience from the different senses that we have the six senses. And in that sense, it's also the way maybe she Ganga doesn't go too deep into that, but I explained to some people, and that's where people are, can be surprised by that, take that angle that we have in proper Buddhism, is that the way to look at life, and, for example, people are very excited when you have a kid. And that's just born and start to develop, and people are getting excited and look at Grand comment and quick sec. Coming to the senses, you know, is developing the senses is becoming aware of his senses. What actually you do is that you start to develop your addiction to your senses. by discovering them, you start to figure as a kid that you you how you send doors, that gives you sensations and you start to have you strong opinion, but the sensation either you like them or you don't like them, and then they're actually starting to develop your addictions. And that's what makes it so hard at the end to go the other way to backtrack on the dependent origination, which is the path right? It's basically backtracking that so to the point that ultimately leads in becomes routine meditation detachment from any sensory experience.
Host 44:32
Right. Another line that struck me in the book is you said, I'm quoting your your book here. These people are so scared to be alone having to face their true self, although there resides the solution to all their problems. Become a meditator, dive deep into your core, through your layers and find your source in connection with the whole the no loneliness anymore. No need for anything outside anymore to distract or fill up some gap and only ready to give share true compassion, true love not asking for anything. So one of the things I was struck by this is, I was curious how this sentiment that you express about loneliness in your book relates to your own decision to pursue spiritual travel often on your own and in foreign and remote places. So one of the things I'd like to know is, as loneliness, a sense of loneliness, has that been an issue for you, in your own practice? Or in your own spiritual travel?
Sebastien Le Normand 45:24
No, and the short answer is no. But again, it goes back to being a kid, and already having my family telling me, you know, oh, you, you're not very sociable Anyway, you know, you don't like to hang out with us. So you, but it goes back to not relating to the society and human society with the way they live and the values and relating more to nature and animals. So then, as I was already spending time around and enjoying it, I had more meaningful connection, spending time in nature, or with animals than with humans. So I've always had that strength, supporting me behind that way. So that I always knew that I would find strong, deep variable connections, meaningful connection, by being with nature and animals. So being around or not doesn't matter on your hand. And also, because for a while, I worked in hospitality, and I was a guide, I really like to share and I got very good feedback from clients many times, and I was guiding because they felt that I had that passion to share that type of connection to nature, to the Romans to the world, to the earth, and, and to animals. And so many people appreciated that. And they could sense that they had the passion, because for me, that was the real thing. Again, that connection, but then, yeah, it's just that basic thing. And some other famous mystics or spiritual teachers over the generations have mentioned this thing that is that huge difference between loneliness and loneliness. And many people feel lonely. And as we know, many, many people feel lonely in Sidi even if they have friends. Versus alone, this solitude can Yeah, do it for quite a while we've introspection, then we'll start to give you this answer. And actually, will you ultimately to connect, if you don't freak out by being alone, but rather accept and settle down in that situation, then you can start to experience those deeper connection to real thing as nature elements, you know, even the, like we talked about in, in Buddhism, the four basic elements, you know, you might start off spend countless hours sitting on top. The anecdote is that in France, Bashir, Android release King. And always since I was a kid, and as Amanda, I really enjoy spending time high up in the mountains, always finding inspiration, I always like to be able to stay high up in the mountain when it gets quiet from the society. But in France, keypads will never let you stay, of course, after hours, so I had to hide. So I was hiding from them after they close the ruins and the reefs. And so that could just spend time sitting
Host 48:06
high up the entire night or
Sebastien Le Normand 48:08
no adjusting until sunset, because that's being done in the dark. But sunset that has been Yeah, that was also important, in some ways, but they're just the importunity to sit by yourself high up in the mountains. And you know, of course, you have the typical pictures of all those Yogi's, whatever, cartoon pictures, comic pictures, or, you know, sitting high up in the mountain alone is often a seeking measure what brings you depth into the understanding of life? And, yeah, everything relates, and so yeah, for example, I was doing that already, as a teenager, you know, is trying to be able to be left alone, quiet, high up in the mountains. That's an example. Right? So
Host 48:59
you also in the sentence, you you present a kind of solution to the condition of loneliness as being, in your words, you say, become a meditator. So do you see the transformation into a meditator as something that can respond to the condition of loneliness?
Sebastien Le Normand 49:15
Yes, of loneliness, yes. You know, it goes back. And I had figured that one as a teenager, that, you know, the famous Know thyself. And again, I was like, by going within Actually, I have a feeling that I would find all the answers that I need. And actually, as a teenager, I remember doing that from my own practice, that I was like, I want to find all the answers to my question before I'm 20 years old. So I'm going to be eight and find those answers by going within and actually it worked out for me back then I got all the main ones was the one I was looking for, but the meaning of life the way the society is like that human nature and stuff around that time, by meditating on my own and spending that time in nature on my own and stuff. So I became aware Where that all the answers lie within yourself. And again, this is sort of about if you manage to not freak out by the idea of being alone and go within. But if you can do the proper work of just observing, just go inside and see what happened. And it's that simple, right? Again, it's funny enough, had that whole rule of asking people to do the most simple thing in the world that a human can be asked to do. Because the hardest one for most, is just sit with yourself, and just go within and see what happens. See what's in there. What comes up over time, we got freaking out, and it's okay. And then you will discover a lot of interesting thing and actually do answer better, I guess your question for the other. But then, at some point, you start to actually connect to more and more and more, and to maybe more meaningful things that you wouldn't have guessed before you have you superficial connection to people to being as being social, that you feel like helps you and and that takes away the feeling of loneliness, because you have social interactions, but then become again, dependent on that you can become addicted to that, right? Because then again, you cannot, many people cannot stand to suddenly find themselves alone. But then, on the other hand, it's as it is known, basically, if you can do the proper work that way to spend a lot of time alone and go within, then you will start to connect to many, many more exciting things and a lot of things and life meaning and universe and energies and other things.
Host 51:42
You also just in the sentence again, going back to it, you juxtapose the condition of loneliness, with the development of true love and compassion. And that's curious how you bring those together. So what relation Do you see true love and compassion arising out of a situation of loneliness that's been observed.
Sebastien Le Normand 52:04
I don't know if I could mention because I've been a fan for a long time from another very famous mystic who actually at a time was a bit in competition with Ganga back in the days in India. And he's very good at explaining that. Osho Osho Yeah, Osho has been really, you know, as much as he has been controversial and everything, but he has been really good at explaining brantly clearly many, many things. And I'd like often to refer to him as far as these take around this versus loneliness. But basically, and going back to the proper Buddhism anyway, is true love can only happen when you have to have that ego, that selfish interest, you know that self centeredness. That's what we at least agree as Buddhist, you know, versus what many people think love is. So true love and compassion only happens after the ego is dropped. The self interested, selfishness, self interest, and aloneness. With the time span going within, is exactly what will get you there. That's the two. The two part basically, what we just talked about before, spending time alone meditating going within, you find your own true nature, you find connection to so much else, and the core start to fade off and fade off. And you remember also being young, you start again, you can only feel humble, thinking about you as a little tiny little person to compare to the rest of nature to the forces of nature, which rules us anyway, that we are dependent upon, and then the universe again, nowadays, it's nice also when they have those little videos, but you know, people freak out about small things. And then they feel that they are so important and something and then the cycle, get that kind of a perspective, you are just a tiny little human on the planet Earth in a solar system in the universe. So you know what, but aloneness allows you to connect to those different scale of things and look at things in different way. And that way, ego can only just drop over time. And once the ego and that's huge notion of me self so important is dropped. Then things turn around the shifter on us. It's not about me anymore. It's about the others. And you're available for true love and compassion.
Host 54:30
Yeah. Great. So to wrap up to bring this all together, given your belief in the power of aloneness and how the role that's played in your spiritual practice, what lies ahead for you in Myanmar in this visit, what kind of experience or place are you pursuing or hoping to find to further your spiritual practice on this your third visit? country you keep coming back to
Sebastien Le Normand 54:54
it because I never actually I maybe I didn't answer exactly one question earlier, but there was a part of it as a I'm also what is a bit funny. And the anecdote is when you go to those famous places or pagoda with views, and then you have all those young moms, who comes to you, the young monks, they are eager to practice English and when asked question to tourists and so that's an that's a that's also interesting in there. And I feel the connection to that. And I've met some CEOs and young monks, they, you know, they like the foreigner part, but then when they find someone that they mean, they feel to them that understands Dhamma is really into the Dharma and the practice. And then they can practice English, they are very eager, you know, to, to learn and to practice with you. And so I've been asked from a few places to come back, and to share both to share the Dhamma and help the monks practice English. And that becomes the classic thing, you know, for foreigners has an idea of spending time easily in this country, and in the form of exchange. So that, that I really enjoy. So I want to again, go to some places that are meaningful to me and spend some time there for my own practice connection deep down to the, to those grounds of strong Dharma from famous teachers, you know, and then also give back a give that way to monasteries, where I've been asked to come back, and maybe some new ones, just to satisfy to the eagerness of the young monks to practice English and to talk about them. Because my life is really open, mainly right now. So that's, yeah,
Host 56:46
yeah. So just final question that we want to ask everyone that comes on here. This podcast is also meant for people who have never been to me and more thinking about coming, and maybe people who have come, but they want to learn more about it. So with each guest, we'd like to ask a recommendation. If someone was coming to me and more meditator was coming, and someone interested in meditation, maybe they haven't had much of a background, or maybe they're advanced. But if they were to come, they were to spend two weeks here, or three months here, or one year here. What advice would you give them of what to do with their time? So what advice would you give to someone coming in for two weeks for three months and for one year? To get the most out of the the domino experience? Based on your personal spiritual experience? Based on your personal travel experience in Myanmar? What advice would you give if someone had timeframe of two weeks, three months and one year?
Sebastien Le Normand 57:39
Okay, but I think also there are two aspects, depending on still what mindset or what main goal the person has, you know, because the one thing is, you know, me and my eyes opened up a lot to tourism. And of course, like many other countries, in that way, they really want to get more and more tourists coming, because that will bring income and everything. So either you come mostly from the touristic aspect of you or you really come as a real meditator and video, but Buddhism specifically because exactly in that leadership period that I've had, since my first time, I've seen and experienced the difference, you know, I see now the, again, more and more of that backpacker culture coming in. But at the same time, people who maybe want to see a bit with or want to ask a bit about what Buddhism is about, but that she didn't, you know, it's more, but it's gonna check me and Mark what it is because no, it's opened up. It's nice, they have beautiful temples, beautiful monasteries, and it's a different culture. So it's open now. So let's check it out before it changes too much. But then actually did not have much interest in Buddhism. So it really depends what the main focus is
Host 58:48
and imagining the person interested in Buddhism. So someone coming for the first time they want to explore the Dhamma have one person has two weeks one has 10 months and one has one year what advice would you give for them to use the most of their time to see the Dhamma and experience the Dhamma layer?
Sebastien Le Normand 59:05
So if it's to experience the Dhamma, I would say well, I still think it's a combination like I mean, you know like for for tourism, the Myanmar has so many beautiful places to show an architecture and temples and yeah, many different things. So if you have two weeks you should combine half and half maybe the way I did the first time go to the famous places for on Buddhism and Dharma and famous monasteries or where there was on famous I still sometimes say Oh, and then still see the main touristic sites, you know, the classic four or five points like you know, young goon and bygone and in LA and Mandalay and kind of, you know, the main places I guess, and then go to the main temples, the big monasteries, the famous place three months, then I don't know, then it's more. Yeah. split in half, then maybe half. Again, the touristy and famous places and and the little half of surface version, they have to go off the beaten track. And oh, yeah, let the synchronicity happen. But it depends on your level of dedication to maybe for three months, someone can still try to ordain for one week or two weeks in other places they feel connection during this month. Yeah, or none. Yeah. And then, for a year, I don't know, haven't even. But I would say the same at the biggest scale. Yeah, take some time to explore, try to explore a lot to get a better sense of the culture in general, and the pros and cons that you find personally, you know, compared to your own liking an opinion. And then if you find a place that you have an affinity for, and especially if you come for the demo purpose, and you on the path, probably try to connect to mastery and spend quite a bit of time there.
Host 1:01:08
So choose one monastery and teacher
Sebastien Le Normand 1:01:11
Yeah. And then for your practice, and maybe ordained again, for a few months, at least 10. But dedicate your time to one monastery afterwards, after you've been around, explored a bit outside the usual path. And if you get a feeling that there was this one place that felt special to me that I really like and maybe go back, basically. And and that's another thing that we discover here, right? It's compared to what I said earlier, that masteries are so open to, to work on people. And when it comes to them, it's so easy that Yeah, to just pray, see that, again, it's something really nice with this country, that's still happening, I don't know if it's gonna be for a long time like that. But how monastery can still be open and welcoming to foreigners, and just to stay. And I mean, if you can, of course, handle the lack of Western luxury and comfort and convenience, again, which is to be part of the being on the path is not to expect, you know, the whole comforter of Berkshire, we have nice hotels. But yeah, I mean, as far as demo purposes, yeah, you might as well at some point, connect to a monastery and spend an extensive, extensive time there. I think it would be a good experience. And helping get amongst and helping them, bring them on homeruns and the whole experience, but they're on one specific place that you felt a connection to, after having explored for yourself first and get a better sense of the different aspects.
Host 1:02:51
Okay, and we also wanted to make sure to mention where people can find more about your writings and the talks that you've given. So the book that you self published is called awareness, nature inspired quotes on existence. It's available as ebook and physical book on Amazon. And you also have a YouTube channel where you've given some talks that can be freely accessed, and you can search is shortened name, sab, l n. So that's first word, S, Eb and then l and to access more of your, your writings and your talks, and hopefully there will be more coming soon. Thank you so much. Thank you, and best wishes on your upcoming spiritual journey in Myanmar. And if you pass through here on your way out, then we can check in again about what those experiences were like.
Sebastien Le Normand 1:03:38
Sure, it'll be nice. Thank you so much.
Zach 1:03:47
Melissa coats hailing from Twentynine Palms, California, or actually, I don't know exactly where you are. You're at Ruth Denison's place, aren't you? Melissa?
Melissa Coats 1:03:56
Joshua Tree
Zach 1:03:57
Ah, that's pretty close, isn't it?
Melissa Coats 1:04:00
Yeah. Just down the road. Yeah.
Zach 1:04:03
So for those who don't know who Ruth Dennison is, you tell us a little bit about who Denison is
Melissa Coats 1:04:09
sure she was also a student side to back in the same teacher who appointed going catchy as a teacher. And he also appointed her as a teacher and she started this little center out in the desert here in Joshua Tree in the 70s. And it still exists and looks very much like her house. Grandma's house meditation center
Zach 1:04:40
that what it feels like
Melissa Coats 1:04:41
it does it has this really sweet grandma's house feel.
Zach 1:04:47
But she's no longer with us. Is that right?
Melissa Coats 1:04:50
No, she passed away. I don't remember what year but not too far off from going big also.
Zach 1:04:57
Okay. Is it safe Literally teaches and did he still kind of Is there a kind of a system as is similar to Uber? Can I I've heard she has her kind of on style, like incorporating gardening and dancing. And
1:05:13
it is
Melissa Coats 1:05:15
a as far as form goes, it's unrecognizable to the going care system that really, as far as I understand, modeled by kids format, yes, definitely including movement and very individualized teaching. So like different people coming in with different needs, or people coming in with traumas who can't sit 10 hours a day, for 10 days. It's more flexible. And in a way, I think of it as a place that, like, catches, folks who might fall through the cracks that go into centers in a way. Cool with having more like individualized attention from a life teacher and her student arena. Weissman took over the center after Ruth passed away. And Bruce was the first person to hold women's Buddhist meditation retreats in the 70s. And arena was the first to hold LGBT retreats in the 90s. And in recent years, the center has started having people of color retreats and just creating safe space for people to come into the Dharma who might not right, feel safe enough or drawn enough in other places in right, bigger Western Dharma centers.
Zach 1:06:42
Sounds like a real intention of being proactively inclusive. That's great.
Melissa Coats 1:06:48
Yeah, it definitely makes the diamond more accessible to to certain groups of people. Yeah, individuals from diverse backgrounds.
Zach 1:07:01
That's great. Well, we're actually here to talk about Sebastian's interview. Do you want to? You're better French than I am? Do you want to say his name?
Melissa Coats 1:07:12
The best Yeah, Ludo.
Zach 1:07:14
There's no way I could say that. But yeah, we're here to discuss the best jeans interview. And yeah, just one, the first thing I gotta say out of the gate, about the interviews, like it was, it was actually our first recorded interview quite some time ago. And interesting, I just, I just edited a very recent interview, which will come out quite soon as well. So to have these two next to each others, it's quite funny. I, I've heard of other podcasters as well, when they when they go back and listen to their first episodes, it's they kind of cringe. Just because there's such there's so much learning that happens in the first, you know, series of interviews. Well, that being said, What did you think of the interview, you gave it a listen to recently? So I'd like to hear your thoughts. Yeah, what what stood out to you.
Melissa Coats 1:08:07
There was so much I identified with in, in his interview, and just really common themes that actually a lot of Dharma journeyers that I met in Myanmar have had similar kind of arcs of taking a course or sitting some meditation retreat somewhere and then feeling a call to go further and kind of look towards the roots or see how they can get closer and learn more than ending up in Myanmar, you know, adventuring to either the sides, you buy kin center, or to monasteries, here and there. And then having all kinds of synchronicities, unfold and having a real deepening in so many unexpected ways of, of our practice. This is just like common threads that I've seen in so many people's experience, my own included, of being so inspired by the culture and the dedication of the monastics and the energy or vibration of the monastics and it strengthening our practice all around our, the depth and understanding and yeah, it almost sounds like a classic story.
Zach 1:09:33
Right? I had that same kind of connection as well, same similar kind of story arc. I mean, I had a lot of parallels actually with with Sebastian story. going right back to the very beginning of the journey is really this kind of not really fitting in totally with mainstream society.
1:09:53
Mm hmm.
Zach 1:09:54
Not necessarily being opposed to it either on my end, but you know, and I didn't, I wasn't as quite as deep into other things as he was even as a teenager that was quite impressive, but, but I was already starting to, to bend out and move away. You know, I mean, I went down a slightly different path first, involving like psychedelics and the Grateful Dead. But my next step was nature, you know, as well. So I was very much called to nature. I lived in the Colorado mountains after college for for several years. And that part that was kind of the bridge between going into the inner nature of things like a psychology degree in university and religious studies degree and then being just just my mind was leading that way. And, yeah, there's that feeling that I'm just not going to probably be a nine to fiver with 2.5 kids and living in the suburbs. Like my parents were, you know, nothing wrong with that, but I just wasn't quite like that, you know, so there's that, whatever you want to call it, but for lack of a better term, setting off on it got some kind of hero's journey, like so many of us have done.
Melissa Coats 1:11:06
Mm hmm. I like that he was referring to it as the real deal, like the real deal that is finding in nature and then finding kind of like the real deal in the, like, uncontrived, or I don't, what's, what's the word like, in the way, like, monastics are in the world, it's like a very natural way of being that, that isn't this is subscribing to the societal stories of what we're supposed to value and how we're supposed to behave, even though there are very strict set like, guidelines for behaviors for monastics. But it's, it's really outside of and separate from standard conventional culture and cultural values.
Zach 1:11:53
Right? What's interesting, as you say that, there is still that, like, there's still that line that Buddha draws out that doesn't want that life to be totally separate.
Melissa Coats 1:12:03
Mm hmm.
Zach 1:12:04
He didn't allow monastics, for example, to grow their own food and to be self sustainable, so separate and engaged in something different, and yet not separated, you know, like, still there is some connection so that there was always this bridge for anyone to be able to move from one to the other. And back, you know, so.
Melissa Coats 1:12:28
Mm hmm. Right. And as I was listening to Sebastian's interview, I was thinking like, Oh, I'm just waiting for Sebastian to become a monk. And then Joe asks something about that. And, you know, it sounds like Sebastian's dad also is saying, like, oh, why don't you just go become a monk in a cave if you just like being on the mountain by yourself, right. But he says that, you know, his practice has given him more to share with others and actually makes what, like, he can help share the teachings in a relatable way to the world in a way people can understand. And there's a way that our practice, even though we go for whatever periods of time into this intentional solitude into this aloneness, and sit and go within. It, actually, at least in my experience, and the experience of a lot of meditators that I know, it actually makes us more available or more intimate when we do come back in, in our relationships in how we connect with other people, rather than making us more alien, more alienated, more lonely. There's that opening to a deeper intimacy, in our own experience, through our practice, being more at home in our bodies more present with what's happening moment to moment. And that translates into this presence that we can offer others.
Zach 1:13:58
That's interesting, yes. Because there is that certainly that benefit, those of us that, you know, it may sound to us as we listen and perhaps to a lot of our listeners, too, that this is a very familiar story art. At the same time, if we step back and look at, like, what we might call normal society, or normal people, which I don't consider myself to be. We're quite different, you know, you know, it's not so many people, I of course, within our own crowd, so to speak, it's quite normal. But a lot of us like you saying, I have still have these connections to to others outside of that crowd and I think that's what you're speaking towards. I did find that sometimes evac could go a bit too far though. So it was always really good to have like spiritual friends, you know, because if I found myself surrounded by what we might call the normal people there was a bit of loneliness On the one hand, a lot of them would be drawn to such conversations and such contemplations and perhaps even like wanting to go engage in their own hero's journey, which might include like some, like, quite deep spiritual pursuit. And so that was always fulfilling on the other side. On the other hand, overall, there often felt like a certain depth. I couldn't go to, because that would be too much, you know, that that could cause people to kind of recoil back and say, No, no, that's too far for me, then. Mm hmm. So there, there's no subjects I had to keep to myself, but the degree to which I can go deep into the subjects in Dharma kind of way, was, you know, I was very careful, because I didn't want to, like traumatize, so to speak with, with the some of the ideology, or the depth of the practice, which is actually, when you go in there, it's actually quite a beautiful thing. But at a distance, you know, it can seem kind of alarming, like, oh, I'll have to give up that or like, oh, like, I won't love what I love now, you know, like, that can seem kind of put off ish or even threatening,
Melissa Coats 1:16:12
right? So
Zach 1:16:12
there was always this kind of,
1:16:14
right, you know, I
Zach 1:16:15
kind of have to learn, I had to learn that the hard way. You know, I think I was very unskillful for quite a long time, trying to just share everything I knew.
1:16:24
Me too.
Zach 1:16:26
You can do that with people that have had that depth, you know. So having a balance of both sides was important to me.
Melissa Coats 1:16:34
Right? So that's something it is possible that our practice, I did see it with other people actually can create a greater sense of alienation and create greater separation and more relational pain, and things like that. And I think initially on after I started sitting, going go retreats, and I was trying to get my family to come and trying to get people to come and being like, Why doesn't anybody want to do this? Why don't they understand that this is valuable? Or why, you know, like, I had this great experience, how come no one's listening and creating the frustration and, you know, more like a deeper sense of like, loneliness or isolation because nobody was coming to do this with me. Right. And eventually, eventually, you know, I learned the hard way. But that's, that's not the way I share. I've heard other people phrase it as be a Buddha and not a Buddhist. And I'm like, yeah, just show up with love and kindness and care and deep, loving presence, and people respond and become curious about what you're doing anyway. Right. And when I was at the park monastery, I had disrobed, and it was like, the day I was going to leave to go back to California, and another nun, she saw me and she was like, What are you doing? You know, like, why would? Why would you disrobe and, you know, I said, you know, my parents, they, this would be really hard for them, they wouldn't understand. And it's, she said, Oh, my parents didn't, so I just cut them off. And I, like, you know, thinking of that as an option for myself. I'm like, oh, that would cause so much distress and pain and everything in myself in my whole family. Like, that's not a route that I could go. And through me being flexible, and you know, not insisting that I come back in robes and have my family call me by this name and do my weird things like not eat dinner and everything. You know, people in my family have started meditating, and have joined me. And if I was really hard lined and came off as basically a religious fanatic to them, it would have turned them off to the meditation completely. That wouldn't have you even been possible. And now my dad, like loves metta practice, and he meditates on his own and other extended family relatives have started meditating. And for me, that was the more appropriate route to go,
Zach 1:19:26
right? I mean, it's different for different people. I actually did. I did go back to my family in the US in robes, with all my funny, you know, I mean, I mean, it's not funny to me, it was funny, if you step back and look at it from a bigger picture, you know, like a guy wearing funny clothes and shaved head walking around Walmart with his mom, you know. But my family knows. I mean, they, I mean, I could kind of do almost anything as long as it wasn't harmful and they they wouldn't be surprised. internally within a family, that was all that was all good. For the most part with most people, yes, different for different people and, and there is like, there's no Pat formula for what you should and shouldn't do, and have to feel into it. And there's a whole this Hero's Journey comes with a whole skill set that has to be learned, you know, how to be in the world, like how to nurture yourself and get the support, though. So there's that balance that you know, because a lot of practice can feel quite good and quite wholesome and quiet. And if you're trying to share that with people that are interested in, that's painful, there are people that are interested in, you just kind of have to learn to discern what's funny, learn to discern, really like, like, you know, like, I was not skillful in this. And in that lack of skillfulness, I was harming myself actually, so Mm hmm. And then often I would project it on, they just don't get it, right. And that's just an expression of my own pain. You know, it's very personal. And it was like, ego, essentially, the eye wants other eyes to join. Mm hmm. And that's just, that was the wrong message to the wrong people, you know, right. And there's nothing wrong with them, you know, they're just living their lives. And they get they get, they've got their own conditions. And that was an interesting point, Sebastian brought up you know, that understanding, taking this more into the Burmese context and Burmese locals and the way Burmese practice and Buddhism, that was something he had talked about, like just understanding the Burmese through a set of, you know, everyone's basically a set of a collection of conditions. And, and so that was one of the themes, too, that this comes up in a lot of our interviews with people that are the ones that traveled to Myanmar and have this perhaps expectation of this is another learning curve, that the one we were talking about before is really kind of within our own communities, perhaps and how we relate or distant or disengage or feel disoriented, or whatever that might be working through that. Another one is visiting Myanmar, because, you know, as a Western Dharma practitioner, the orientation is very different than growing up Buddhists in a Buddhist country, you know, and so there's, so I come over here kind of self righteous with all these expectations of who and how they ought to be. And I won't say I've shaken all that. But that's a whole nother learning curve of learning what the reality is, without being judgmental. Right. There's that whole disappointment. I don't know, if you went through this, I was a bit disappointed first. And I was not disappointed, but kind of judgmental, that they should be doing it like this. And then and then there's really, aha, that that kind of insight that Sebastian had of Sebastian, if I'm not pronouncing your name correctly, I apologize. You know, his insight was was conditions which is applying the Dhamma itself, and that understanding and wisdom to, to these events that we can experience our lives. And I think that's a great learning curve as well.
Melissa Coats 1:23:20
Mm hmm. Yeah, coming from the west, let's see, like, I think I came in with a bit of a different mind frame that actually a lot of Westerners to some degree. So I'm half Korean, and I moved to Korea when I was 25. I was born and raised in California, very California. And then like living in Korea, but like working in like expat English teacher zones, and actually encountering like a lot of condescending racism from basically Americans and Canadians toward Koreans, like kind of misunderstanding, cultural values, or expressions or like, just like racism, about food and just kind of all all across the board, like, encountering that and feeling really disturbed by it. I kind of like when I'm traveling in Asia, or when I went to Myanmar, like, I get kind of weary of expat communities sometimes, and I have an expectation in some way that they're, that I'm going to be encountering, like, you know, people saying racist things or stereotyping and misunderstanding, making lots of judgments and criticisms, that aren't seeing a bigger picture or aren't understanding a cultural context. And like, I encountered so much condescension, basically, from Westerners towards Asian cultures. Also, I lived in China for a little bit, same thing. And so, though I do like, you know, find criticisms coming up that, you know, I'm seeing especially About sexism and and things in Myanmar like I I'm really weary of that or like reflective on it and myself, it's coming through this conditioned colonial lens that Westerners have when they go to say, Southeast Asia. Yeah, I
Zach 1:25:20
found him, I'm totally guilty of that. And when I did a bit of a deeper dive into it, it's not only in addition to the conditioning you're talking about, it felt to me mostly at an emotional level, just like a way to deal with my discomfort.
Melissa Coats 1:25:40
Mm hmm.
Zach 1:25:40
I was uncomfortable. I was. I didn't feel good. You know, I was just in in foreign. I mean, foreign as in unfamiliar, and so in my discomfort, I just one thing to do is to kind of lash out at at that what you don't feel comfortable with. That's the problem. So it can be looked at in a content sense. But really, as I looked underneath it, it was more driven by like, an emotional feeling of just feeling stressed. Mm hmm. And sometimes I didn't even see the amount of stress I was holding. And then so once I saw that amount of stress, like, wow, this is pretty stressful, like, my mind kind of normalized the stress. Uh huh. So I didn't see that. And then, and then we kind of the self would grasp on to the content and try to make it like, try to make myself believe it was valid. Right? Really, it's all just a way to kind of lash out and get an express distress. But in a very ignorant way to blame
Melissa Coats 1:26:43
it on something.
Zach 1:26:45
Yes, exactly. That's what it felt like, to me, at least. And then, and so that Yeah, Sebastian's pretty quick on his insights. Yeah, it took me quite a bit longer, you know, that mind still arises. And then there's a mind that sees that in a mind that feels the stress, oh, you know, like, just, how can I relax into this book, both in the moment, but also in a more long term way, you know, if I can't relax into I've actually become quite toxic for myself, and everyone around me. Right. And the problem isn't, I mean, if I was still following make the the Thai people and the Burmese people when I was living there to follow all my suggestions. It's ridiculous. Yeah, it's like really like me trying to change the whole world.
Melissa Coats 1:27:32
Right? To make
Zach 1:27:34
me feel comfortable is what it's really about, you know, right.
Melissa Coats 1:27:37
It's from Shanti, devas way of the Bodhisattva. He talks about, like, trying to cover the entire world with leather, rather than put shoes on your own feet.
Zach 1:27:51
It's absurd.
Melissa Coats 1:27:53
Yeah, and it's our conditioned tendency. And yes, it gets revealed in this mind experiment of moving to a new place, and just delving into practice and going in and getting to observe and seeing those patterns coming up again, and again. And those the habits of judgment, the habits of criticism, of blaming, or shaming ourselves and others, and just getting to unravel that through the practice of sitting and observing.
Zach 1:28:26
With the balance of, of neither lashing out and harming others, nor like turning it in on ourselves and saying I shouldn't be like this, you know, really be relaxed and see, wow, that's interesting. That's what this mind does in these conditions.
Melissa Coats 1:28:38
Right?
Zach 1:28:39
There's so much insight in in these kinds. It was nice to see that, you know, there was insights in the journey itself that weren't always sitting on a cache.
Melissa Coats 1:28:48
Right? There's so much that comes up through the cultural context of just yeah, being in Myanmar being in a Buddhist culture when we are coming from a very non Buddhist like intense capitalist culture.
1:29:06
Right?
Melissa Coats 1:29:08
Yes, so much unravels in that also,
Zach 1:29:12
would I be any different if I was born here? I don't think so. You know, I think mind his mind and mind in the same condition, if the mind has exact same external internal conditions, now I'm starting to understand that mind will do the same thing. What's outside of that? What other things are going to come in and do something different with all the exact same internal and external conditions? So, of course, I don't know if we ever get the exact same conditions. There's so much variety, but but the arrogance that goes with that variety, right. I think my unique set of conditions I tend to think is sometimes better. I want to understand, and these people don't, yeah, back to what you're saying before. Like the crowd back at home also like, in the way that there was a stress to where we not lashing out at them because of a discomfort where we've kind of stepped away from what was comfortable. Mm hmm. And then couldn't just bring that back and be comfortable with it. Like, we weren't getting that comfort. And then, like, Hey, you don't get it like these people just don't get it.
1:30:22
Right.
Zach 1:30:25
It's interesting, I've never heard anyone talk about that. There's this just kind of stages, like the hero's journey that just, you just have to learn, you know, and I found the DOM itself is like, like, there's these insights along the way of the of the kind of the bigger arc, you know, that these, these different phases of how, how to come back in your community with with the gifts and do that skill, right how to how to visit these lands where these things came from, that are so foreign and be skillful, internally and externally,
Melissa Coats 1:30:57
right. It takes a lot of courage, a lot of willingness to self reflect really deeply, and just like, the humility and the humbleness that it takes to, to stay open, the strength that it takes to stay open. There's so many qualities that, you know, I could really hear in Sebastian's interview and just see in our own journeys, and those other folks that I met in Myanmar, who are really going for it.
Zach 1:31:31
Right. And there's that appreciation, right suggestion, really. He was talking about, like, once you kind of commit in a sense and go for it, that the ground kind of comes up under your feet as you step off into the unknown to see, you know, that kind of feeling, right. And Sebastian talked a lot about serendipity. And I, it's something I really relate to as well. For me, it was very strong in India, India's like the serendipity. center of the university, serendipity center, actually, Ceylon because once you like, his ancient names with sanative, and that's apparently where the name comes from.
1:32:15
Wow.
Zach 1:32:17
Yeah. For me, though, it was a huge part of my path, especially during the the Goenka years, you know, this is slightly different. It's quite a bit different tradition than when I practice now. But I mean, in a sense, it's kind of talked about in that tradition. And then you know, so I went to, I went to India, I've been to India lots of times, but once with my mom to like, boat guy and all the other holy places and, and have, like, really magical things happen. And then I went to Myanmar with Glinka The first time I went to me and first two times, we went to Myanmar, it was with a big entourage of Ganga meditators, you know, 350 450 people from all over the world. And, yeah, it was just like, one magical thing after another and you're, this has to be Yeah, this is so so many signs pointing forward, you know, and, and so much support coming off, right? How about you totally
Melissa Coats 1:33:10
on on various journeys, yeah, to, to Katmandu, and to Dharamsala. mcleodganj, just like an all over in my time in Myanmar, just signs pointing me to certain places, allowing myself to flow intuitively and just finding guidance and support in all these different ways of all these serendipitous things happening, or just the right thing coming right at the right moment, or just some, some interaction with someone that ended up being such a powerful teaching, those kinds of things would happen all the time.
Zach 1:33:52
One thing I've noticed, assassin I mean, there was a time when I really thought that was it, you know, and then I sort of got carried away with all that in the sense that, you know, if it's working like that it's working. And if it's not working like that, then there's something wrong. And that's not necessarily the case. So that was a phase for me to where, where I had developed a type of faith at that time. Mm hmm. That wasn't necessarily based on anything tangible. It was a lot of feeling in it. And I guess I started to load up too much meaning in that, hmm. And then so the Dhamma you know, we're being touched at Sixth Sense doors all the time. Whether if we're aware of that, it doesn't mean the magics always gonna be there. So I had to learn about life in between those gaps, too, you know, that that's just as much Dhamma as as that magic you know, so
1:34:43
haha.
Zach 1:34:45
It's like some of the Christians would call this like the miracles of the path, you know, that that are actually quite common. They're not actually, they're just part of the spiritual journey. But there are those it's not a whole life of constant miracles from Yeah, if you if, if the mind become kind of attached to those those events,
Melissa Coats 1:35:07
we suffer dupa dupa dupa.
Zach 1:35:11
Right. And so I think I'm at a place now I, those things do happen occasionally still. But perhaps not as intense in as often as they were at that time, he was just like, oh, like a stream of
1:35:28
constant.
1:35:29
Mm hmm.
Zach 1:35:31
But I still I still feel justice is engaged. It's almost like it was a power boost. And maybe I needed at a certain stage. And now I'm at this place where it doesn't matter whether that happens or not. And it still does sometimes, but it's sort of quieter, and can be more mundane, or actually can be more suffering at times, internally or externally. And I still feel deeply engaged in the Dharma. Well, it's interesting that almost like, it's like, those things are the things that perhaps are rising to, you know, to be present that help out. Maybe that's the mirror that's helping us feel, it just feels maybe I've just gotten used to it, it just feels a bit more mundane now, which is till I'm totally comfortable.
Melissa Coats 1:36:19
Yeah, and just helping us like learn not to crave for like special states or special things to happen or something to happen that makes us feel special. Right? Yeah, or magical or whatever, whatever. Right? Even though those things are quite nice. They're still happening to me a lot at diamond DNA here. Like a little fish landed on my head the other day or recently while I was meditating, and a bunny touched my toe while I was meditating. Just the creatures gathering around meditate.
Zach 1:36:49
Yeah, all right. Hmm. Yeah, there's a spiritual posters of people meditating with this, you know, beams of beautiful light around them and all the all the animals, like peacefully together.
Melissa Coats 1:37:06
Yeah, even you know, when, when those magical cosmic signs aren't being sent our way. Like, we have trust in the path from our experience. And from this internal bearing, like from what has shifted in our lives from our practice. And you know that that phrase, he mentioned, that demo works like just letting the path unfold naturally and not not coming in with expectations of how we're supposed to be or what our experiences are supposed to be. And just being willing to observe, observe, observe, and seeing the craving and intensity of that addictive mind that's constantly seeking for this or that diminish over time. That's the power of the practice and the path and the teachings and there's so much support and going to a place like Myanmar, like it just opens up a whole dimensions of understanding that and of understanding how much Sangha exists in the world, and what's available to us. And so yeah, I just, I feel so lucky. Sebastian is so lucky, like all of us who have encountered these teachings in this life, and may we all make the most of it. This really special opportunity to practice and go deep and awaken
Zach 1:38:31
Sadie Sadie Sadie,
Melissa Coats 1:38:34
Sadie Sadie Sadie friends.
Host 1:38:41
I'd like to take a moment to describe what our aim was in creating this podcast series. Our motivation is reflected by the in depth discussions we have with a wide range of guests in three categories of related information. First, we hope to educate and motivate listeners in their own practice, through the inspiring individual lives of meditators sharing their experiences and perspectives within the Burma Dhamma. Second, we want to help meditators in gaining a deeper understanding of the history of Myanmar, such as its context, culture, and religion, so that they can better appreciate how and where their own practice fits into the golden lands rich, Dhamma history. We do this through interviews around scholarly works related to Buddhist Burma. 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