Transcript: Episode 26, COVID-19 Pandemic: Dealing With Disruption
Following is the full transcript for the interview about meditation centers during the pandemic, which appeared on December 8, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
We try to fail the Insight Myanmar podcast feed with loads of thought provoking and informative content. But before we get into all that on the episode that follows, we just want to take a moment to express our heartfelt good wishes to all of you listening at the moment, wherever that happens to be knowing how challenging it is in these strange times during the coronavirus pandemic. And trying times like these, we can all use a bit more goodwill in our lives. So on behalf of the team here at Insight Myanmar, I would like to say in the traditional way that better is offered. May you be free from physical discomfort. May you be free from mental discomfort. May You not meet dangerous or enemies. May you live a peaceful and happy life. And May all beings be free and come out of suffering. And with that, let's move to the show.
01:14
Hi.
Host 01:46
Welcome to the seventh episode in our Coronavirus series. In past episodes, we have explored how the pandemic has affected monastics and meditators around the world. In today's show, we shift our focus to examine sites instead of people. We check in with three American based monasteries and meditation centers with some connection to Burmese traditions to see how they have responded in these unprecedented times. The show is also a bit different from our previous episodes in the series, and that we don't look at single snapshots in time, but rather pan out for a wider perspective, and look at how these places have adopted policies and protocols in response to the ongoing reality of the pandemic. Looking back over this special COVID series, it occurs to me that our episodes have developed in a similar way to what you've seen worldwide in response to the virus. For example, when the pandemic first hit, it sent shockwaves around the world, forcing everyone to make major life changes in the midst of enormous uncertainty and confusion. Our first episodes reflected that, as we spoke to individual monastics and others in Burma about the impact of the viruses initial onslaught over time, societies and individuals pass through various stages of lockdown political disarray, waiting for successful vaccine trials, and COVID. Second, and even third waves are series mirrored that shift as we spoke to meditators around the world regarding how they were adapting to life during the long haul of the pandemic. Another level still in the world adaptation to the pandemic has been the upheaval that so many businesses and institutions have had to navigate. Many businesses initially shut down entirely either from their own assessment or because of government mandates. Over time, they evolve new and proactive ways to live within government guidelines, and be responsive to a concern public. This is now where our own focus moves. So in this episode, we explore the evolution of meditation centers responses to the ongoing pandemic. At first, many simply shut down entirely. And monasteries engaged in strict lockdown, often the result of governmental restrictions against indoor gatherings. Then, over time, these restrictions lifted either sooner or later, under some new guideline or another. At the same time, many people remain skittish about attending large indoor gatherings, including meditators, especially without mask requirements. Regardless of the senators individual circumstances or the current local regulations, teachers, trustees and administrators realized that this pandemic wasn't going away anytime soon, and that they needed to chart a new way forward in these very uncertain times. At that point, monasteries and meditation centers began to think hard about options for the dissemination of Dhamma. outside a typical course or class format. Teachers also began looking for ways to ensure that the Buddhist timeless teachings of liberation remained practical and relevant for these challenging times. Each center found its own unique way to adapt and serve its meditator community. And those are the stories we tell today. The following conversations examined the internal process that these centers went through for the better part of the year, leading off with their plans going forward for this winter and beyond. We hear from three different places today. We first check in with Sean fight Oaks, the editor at spirit rock insight meditation center in California. Next up is is Soma, an Italian monastic and co founder of empty cloud monastery in West Orange, New Jersey. Finally, we speak to dictate Illinois and assistant teacher, Adama pataca, of a passionate center in Jessup, Georgia, in the tradition of sn Goenka. We hope you will also be inspired to hear how these different centers are working so earnestly to keep the Buddhist teachings accessible and timely, especially in such difficult times. As we hear it Insight Myanmar certainly were while conducting these interviews. Alright, I'm here with Sean fight oaks in he is an editor at spirit rock. He's in California now. And thanks so much for joining us.
Sean Feit Oakes 05:58
Of course happy to be here.
Host 06:00
Yeah, so before we get into some of the shifts that's come and change with the pandemic, can you give us an idea for those that don't know about spirit rock, what you offered and what the purpose and the mission of your center was, in pre pandemic more normal times?
Sean Feit Oakes 06:17
Sure. Spirit rock has been around since the mid 80s or so. And it grew out of what we now think of as our sister Center, the insight meditation society, in Barre, Massachusetts. So it was founded by jack kornfield, and some of his senior students out here in California. And so it grew out of the same vision as insight meditation society, and generally the vision of the Western insight meditation centers, which is that it's primarily a retreat center, or we have up until pandemic times certainly primarily been a residential retreat center, offering retreats have from one day up to two months in the inset meditation style. And so that style for folks who may not be familiar with it, is a form of Vipassana or our westernized or globalized Tera vaada Buddhism, that grew out of two main lineages, one being the mahasi lineage of Burmese Vipassana and the other being jack cornfields primary lineage through the Thai forest tradition of origin cha. So we've always been multiple lineage center, and the teachers. Here at spirit rock, there's a teacher's Council of a couple dozen teachers now and and growing. Many teachers have studied in multiple lineages, not just within the Tera vaada, but broadly within Buddhism of different streams. So there are folks there with strong training in Zen strong training in Vettriano of various lineages, particularly Doug Chen, but also folks with training in in other related streams, like like the advisor stream of Sri Puja, and certainly Jack's time with Trina saga data, as well. So we have an eclectic stream of practice coming together into really quite a lovely retreat environment for folks about 100 folks at a time, almost year round, coming to do retreat. And that has changed Of course, with the pandemic. Since March, we have been offering all of our programs exclusively online, including developing and, and really working on how to offer retreats online, with people practicing at home, but with as much rigor and and clarity as we can to give to give a sense of the retreat experience, even though we can't gather in person at the moment.
Host 09:18
Right, right. And if you could take me back to that time around March when the reality of the pandemic really started to hit people everywhere with the severity of it and the disruption of life. And you could take me back to what was happening at spirit rock in the discussions with some of the senior teachers, the trustees, the center managers in at that moment of trying to figure out exactly what was happening in the world and how you were starting to calculate and figure out your response to it.
Sean Feit Oakes 09:50
Well, I think like everybody, it was kind of just a mad scramble. You know? We we made the decision. To, to close the physical retreat center, actually, during the the march month long retreat, our our long retreat has always been February and March. And so we had 100 people sitting, the entire month of March, and someone that had been sitting since the beginning of February, as we have had, you know, every year for for 20, some years, and the retreat managers and teachers had to make the very difficult decision to cut the retreat short with people that were, you know, deep in the field of their practice, and, and, you know, and kick them out into a world that was, you know, kind of convulsing with this, this, this new, still mostly unknown threat. And it was really dramatic. It was it was, so it was harsh. And I was on the long retreat 20 years ago, when we, when the United States invaded Iraq. And I remember the moment when the retreat managers interrupted the retreat, to tell us what had happened, you know, that, that the country was now at war, in this in this very serious way, that that many of us had protested, you know, just weeks before to try to stop. And it was really dramatic. So I, I really felt in my heart that I wasn't there on the retreat this year, but I really felt the force of, you know, interrupting a long retreat like that. So that was the kind of immediate, you know, drama, but then behind the scenes, there was really this, this process of saying, okay, you know, it's at the heart of our practice, to know that everything changes, everything is changing constantly, that the future is unreliable, that, you know, the best laid plans, as they say. And so I think, in a way, you know, our practice supported us as well as, as, as we could be, to, to roll with it. And to, you know, shift and, and, you know, the biggest the heaviest lifting was on the side of our IT team, that the tech folks who really, very quickly geared up to two transfer retreats that were already on the calendar into an online format, to to really upscale and solidify the streaming that we were doing and, you know, getting everything on to zoom the way everybody did, I think in those those first months, and so it was a little chaotic, but relative to just shutting down, I think I think it went it went alright.
Host 12:34
That's interesting. You mentioned the this intersection between the worldly and the spiritual and reference back when you were taking a course during the Iraq war. And we often think of like a spiritual practice has been retreat, we even use that word word from the worldly. And yet, of course, there's always this intersection interaction. I had friends, as you were talking, I was reflecting that I had friends who were in serious courses during three events of worldwide consequence. 911 was one another was a friend in Japan who was there when the tsunami hit. And they had to figure out how severe the consequences were and how to inform students and whatnot. And then the final was a friend who was sitting in Yangon, during Cyclone Nargis. And same kind of thing, actually, that was probably the one of all these events where the center was actually directly affected by the the impact of the world because trees were literally falling, you know, at the center ground. So it's, it's interesting, this experience of going to deal with the world better to take a retreat out of the world to slow things down. And then in the middle of that retreat, the world creeping back in and trying to find that dynamic balance between them.
Sean Feit Oakes 13:47
Absolutely. Generally, in my own teaching, I, you know, I try to resist making a dichotomy between the world and not the world. It's all the world, you know, when I was on my retreat, in Yangon, at Jamia yetta, in 2002. So I was I did a temporary ordination there, I was there for a rains retreat. And, and you know, when I was going there, it was still in this there was this kind of, it was in this phase of like this tenuous opening from Burma being really closed. And, and one of my teachers, I was getting ready to go and I was talking with, with one of the Spirit teachers about being there who had who had recently just been there. And he said, he said, Oh, it's, you know, it's gonna be great, just do this, do this, do this, do this. Oh, and, and, you know, bring a whole bunch of $5 bills, just to give to people. And I was like, to give to people. And then I realized that what he meant was, you're gonna need to bribe people to get through customs. And, and, and I was like, I was like, Oh, this is like, this is my Buddhist teacher, you know, ethics like precept keeping teacher, being like, take a bunch of $5 bills, it's gonna make your life easier. And it was really like, oh, the world is perfect. Right there.
15:01
No, there's
Sean Feit Oakes 15:01
there's no separation. You know, I often tell a story of sitting in meditation in the hall there at chemi. I was there with seido who jonica on retreat. And and one day I hear this, this kind of the sounds coming over the wall, you know, it was in a, in a kind of suburban neighborhood, you may know it. So I hear these sounds and after a while, my mind, you know, I've been doing, I've been doing the pasta, so I'm just like hearing hearing. And at some point it coheres in my mind, and I realized that somebody is practicing the clarinet. And then it coheres a little bit more, and I realized that they're playing, like a virgin by Madonna. Oh, and I'm like, I came all the way to Yangon, you know, to the outskirts of Yangon to this monastery to do you know, like rigorous Vipassana like, like, it's, it's the, it's as much away from the world, my world of California, you know, as I could possibly get practically, you know, and, and here's somebody like practicing Madonna on the clarinet. And, and so it's all here, you know, and, and in that sense, with spear rock this year, it very much feels like that, you know, not just with the pandemic, but through the course of the year, it's really been part of our practice to, you know, to respond to the crisis in race relations in the United States to respond to the killing of George Floyd, to speak to, you know, the chaos of the election. And really, the western insight meditation centers, they're not monasteries, right? We're not, they're not certainly not hermitages. In a way, it is our mission to be a bridge between, you know, the inner and the outer life, you know, mindfulness of the internal mindfulness of the external. And we really are community centers in a certain way for folks who have a kind of value that is strongly informed by early Buddhism, strongly informed by the precepts by refuge by, but also by concepts like interconnection and, and interdependence. And, and so it's, it's at the heart of what we do, to, to offer, retreat practice, but also to, to know that we are embedded in in the world, really, in the complexity of people's lives in the political situation. So it's all right here. And so what we try to do is, is offer people, you know, resources and support for their inner life, and really, to be on a path of liberation in the classical sense, but also offer guidance on what I would think of as, you know, guidance on right view in this time, like, how do we relate to our lives and, and the world from, from the perspective of of the Dhamma.
Host 18:07
So it sounds like you're saying the unique way that spirit rock mission was set up to incorporate these teachings and style and dissemination of the teachings led to a year like 2020 just being so disastrous and upsetting and disruptive on so many levels, that inherent in your mission, were the tools in bringing the teachings to this strange reality and unexpected series of events that we're living through and perhaps more smoothly trying to apply those to a very unsmoothed situation, but there might have been some background in your mission that gave you the tools to look as teachers, administrators, and how to respond in the most appropriate way.
Sean Feit Oakes 18:49
I think that's absolutely true. On a, you know, on a, on a heart level, in a way, like, I think we know, we as a as a as a lineage broadly, I think we're pretty good at this walking this line between the external and the internal there's, there's a lot to learn there, you know, we've been in we've been in a deep and and multiple decades process of, you know, learning how to how to address for instance, the, the historical, white centered nature of the insight meditation lineage, for instance, and working on diversity and equity and inclusion in various ways and diversifying our teaching pool and, you know, a lot of effort in that way. So, and many things have been difficult, you know, but I think what you're speaking to, you know, at the heart of our mission is the transmission of the dumb, the preservation of the dumber, but also the, you know, California 2020 is not Myanmar of any era, you know, it's not the Thai forest. It's certainly not It's certainly not, you know, Magadha, in the fifth century, before the Common Era, even though that's where we take our texts from, so we're working, as Buddhism has always done, as it comes to new cultures, we are translating, and, and, and reinventing when, when necessary all the time. But I think that the, the bones are there to give us a strong spiritual and can view response to, to changing conditions, the challenges are often really in the details, like this year, you know, like a lot of centers, we've been challenged to maintain revenue, we had to let go of a whole bunch of staff, certainly a lot, a lot of our on land staff, we had to furlough, which was really hard decision to make, we've, you know, we're certainly not, we're certainly not making the revenue in, you know, online retreats as we would, in on with people, you know, coming to retreats on the land. And, but in beautiful trade offs, you know, the online retreats can suddenly reach people all around the world, and people don't have to fly to California to do it. And, but, but the technical aspect of, you know, turning, turning a, an in person, residential, you know, retreat center, into, essentially an online media company. You know, that's not entirely, it's not entirely obvious, you know how to do that. And we weren't doing that before, you know, we are, we're a bunch, we are an organization that got really good at, at putting on live retreats. And and suddenly, you know, teachers are having to learn new technology, everything's changing. And as we saw that, like, the spiritual side is fine. Everyone's like, yep, everything changes. But, but in the relative, it's like, everything changes. And, you know, how do I do a breakout group again, on zoom? Like, like? How do we record things in a decent enough resolution? And where do we post them? And what's up with server space? And, you know, a million things? Right, that are just ordinary, the world, you know, needing to be to be engaged with?
Host 22:19
Right, and looking technically at what it was you did and how you decided it? To what extent were you basing those decisions on like, local county or state guidelines? And to what extent were you were you making your own decisions based on consultation with your own staff and your own understanding? And where did your decisions on the correct action, the process that you took, where did they originate from?
Sean Feit Oakes 22:44
Like, for, like, for, for for closing the Life Center, for instance, like, like,
Host 22:50
for losing the center? Or who, who was allowed there, under what capacity? Or if and when to reopen? What what are those decisions based on?
Sean Feit Oakes 22:58
Right? You know, I think it's, if I want to keep, you know, basing our decisions in some way, you know, going back to the, to the precepts, and, you know, to our formal practice, you know, if I want to not cause harm, and when we are part of the Tera vaada, which is a, you know, a rather conservative lineage buddhistic Lee speaking, you know, we we've, we've made decisions that are relatively conservative. So we've we've gone, you know, fully with state and county guidelines, of course, and our thinking at the moment is, you know, we're gonna stay closed and offer things only online until it feels, you know, ethically responsible to to do otherwise. So, you know, that will mean balancing our sense of what the relative risks are for, you know, gathering for a retreat, for instance, you know, is there a, is there a point where we'll be able to, you know, have a retreat, but have it be only half capacity, for instance, you know, people only in single rooms, and, and there's all sorts of considerations, you know, but we're tracking the official guidelines, the CDC guidelines, the state guidelines, primarily the state since the states are all different. And, and right, in this very moment, you know, there's, it's, it's not looking good, right, California is entering new shutdowns. Sure, we basically are planning to, to stay online only through September of 2021, per se. And this is partly because to open an on land, you know, residential retreat, you have to give people quite a bit of notice, both teachers and bringing staff back and students registering for it and being able to plan for it. So, you know, not knowing when that'll be or how the surges will happen of the pandemic. There's no way for us to be like, Oh, we think that they're, you know, the vaccine will make everything good by May or June and therefore, we don't even know about September, where We're kind of just putting like, parentheses around everything from next fall on, right? You know, we're booking things like we're booked out through, you know, for a couple years for long retreats, but we can't really say, you know, oh, this retreat will probably be online, but maybe at the last minute, we'll change our minds and have it be in person, you know, that just wouldn't work. Right. So we're actually just making, I think, you know, a fairly conservative line at being like, we're, you know, you can just rely on it being all online through September, you know, and then we'll see, we'll see from there. And I'm hopeful that by the middle of the year, we'll have, you know, a very clear sense of whether the vaccines are happening and, and how the global situation is looking. And, you know, and that would give us a few months out to start, you know, putting the pieces in place to get back on the land.
Host 25:56
So you describe the mood of the center, when the seriousness and the gravity of the pandemic dawned on people, and you had to scramble like everyone else to make decisions of what exactly to do and how to adapt to it, there was a period as we track the spread of the pandemic, in the US where there were several months where it just felt like, Okay, everyone hunker down, we have to this is a new normal, we have to get through this. And then as it passed into summer, and out of summer, there was a feeling of like, wow, this is, you know, all this, this kind of stay at home, and this new normal that we were adjusting to this looks like it's not going to be ending anytime soon. And there was another adjustment that people and organizations had to make that this is kind of the world that we're now living in for, who knows how long to come. And so with that mindset of the progression of the pandemic, and also the awareness of the length of the pandemic, the open ended quality of that not just a rough period, you have to get through, but more of an open ended thing that we don't know, how long and to what extent it's going to last was there and adjustment around that awareness in your center, that that move from taking responses in the moment to realizing the severity of the start to then realizing this is something we might have to live with, for for some time, and having to change and adjust even more or again, on that level.
Sean Feit Oakes 27:17
I think that that kind of adjustment has happened in a way, like three or four times. In the course of the year, you know, there's a there's, there's an initial, like, Oh, God, you know, like, what are we going to do this weekend, you know, for the event, and then there's like, Okay, this looks bad, let's start, let's figure out what to do next month. And then there's longer term thinking, one of the things that has been, I think, you know, a hidden blessing in this for us is that we have had plans for a long time to strengthen our online presence and our, our workflows, and you know, processes for putting the Dharma out online. So, you know, we've been pecking away at that for some years, doing, you know, various things, you know, streaming some events, getting things going. And that's been fine. This year has been a little bit like, all of those things that we want to do, anyway, are now the thing we have to do right away. And so it's really given us, you know, the space and an urgency to transition to, you know, a much more robust virtual offering more quickly than we might have. Otherwise, you know, so we're building out, you know, a new website, and we're, you know, working on podcast and working with our archives, and, you know, converting things to formats that we can use putting out online courses, and really ramping up our whole virtual offering. And, and that's something that we should have done anyway. I don't know should write, that's something that that we were in the process of doing, anyway. And in a sense, it's the thing that we would need to do anyway, to, to really grow into the 21st century. So we always needed to do it, now we're doing it faster, right? Because it's the only revenue we have, you know, and that's partly what I came into the organization in this position to, to work on to really okay to really work on that aspect. And so, you know, with a, with a deep bow to the suffering of the pandemic, which I would never wish upon the world, but is the nature of the world. It's pretty exciting for me to come in, in a moment when, you know, this is a classic like tech industry thing to say, right, the sort of, you know, big disruption, everything has been disrupted. So there's an opportunity to do something different, something new and different. Sure. And and a lot of Are our fellow organization, our sister organizations, you know, other organizations within insight meditation, like insight meditation society, and also, you know, sibling Buddhist organizations, you know, like wisdom publishers, for instance, which is doing beautifully at this, a lot of places, you know, rupiah is doing beautifully at this have really risen to the, you know, not just the challenge of the pandemic, but the the possibilities of the 21st century and, you know, deep interconnectedness to really do what was this core instruction of the Buddha's to spread the Dharma, you know, I've really been thinking during this year of the pandemic, about Buddhism as having this, this instruction to spread the teachings, you know, when the Buddha says to, to the first, you know, 60, our hands, you know, go, you know, let that no two of you go, even by the same road, and spread the Dharma for the welfare of people, I really feel that in this moment of like, oh, we're putting things out that can be, that can be streamed by anybody anywhere in the world. And that's so different from people being able to just like, come to our kind of, you know, gorgeous, comfortable retreat center in Marion County, which is fabulous, you know, and, you know, to people in, in the mysterious future, please do come, it's great. But, but what we get to do right now, you know, of really spreading, spreading the Dharma in this forum that we've, that we're so grateful to have received from the Burmese and Thai traditions, you know, and the other source traditions in our lineage, you know, it's such a, it's such an honor to be able to build out something that can that can really spread the teachings in this way, quite, quite broadly.
Host 31:48
Right. And that segues into my next question. Because in the world, a lot of businesses and offices have had to by necessity, have had to innovate in all kinds of ways that were, they would never consider off the table or completely out of the box, because we'd never been in this situation before. And in the work world, there's new ways of innovations, that companies are saying, Hey, this is actually not a bad idea, we not that we want to do this, this new idea full time, like we have to now but some of the things we're developing are not that bad to do. Once the pandemic ends, and we go back to, you know, normal life, we've now discovered some kind of innovation out of the necessity of these times we're living in. So when it comes to spiritual organization and spiritual teachings, have there been ways that you found that you've innovated out of necessity, but that process of innovation is actually something you might want to hold on to, even after the pandemic ends and do in normal times?
Sean Feit Oakes 32:42
It's a great question. Absolutely, I think so. One of the main pieces that we've really identified in the organization and, and that that I think, has been very positive this year, is that as a residential Retreat Center for a long time, in a way, one of the, the weakest aspects of how we were able to transmit the Dharma was in the integration between formal Silent Retreat and home practice, we would, we would always talk about, you know, integrating your practice at home at the end of retreat, and teachers would teach on, you know, practice out in the world as it were, or in relationship or at work or things. But because the bulk of our teaching was done, in the context of retreat, there was always a bit of a gap there, you know, we're not, we're not a neighborhood, temple or monastery where people are, you know, coming just for the purpose of the day and, you know, like, a Sabbath, you know, and then being just fully integrated in family and, and work. So we weren't, we weren't giving a stream of teachings oriented toward people not on retreat. And, and so there was always a little bit of a, like, people would, you know, in it on every retreat, basically, for, you know, decades, people would, at the end of the retreat would be like, this is amazing, you know, my practices in a whole new place, my mind state is, is, you know, is different than it ever is, now, I have to go back and be with my, you know, my family, my spouse, my kids, my, my work and, and I'm a little scared, how do I do that? And, and we would always try to figure out, you know, how to answer that question. But now, with this, this form, this basically new practice form of intensive home retreat that we've been doing online and that a lot of places have really ramped up. We have something we have a formal practice that is kind of halfway between. The usual home practice was just like encouraging people, you know, okay, go home. You know, meditate every day. Keep the precepts try to speak wisely. Good luck out there, right. Like that's home tonight home practice, right. Between that and And retreat practice, which was like, Okay, keep noble silence, sit 10 hours a day, walk slowly, you know,
Host 35:07
different worlds,
Sean Feit Oakes 35:08
there's a gulf between those worlds. Yeah, in a way going back to, you know that that opening bit about like, in the world not in the world, at the very least there there are different very different ways of being in the world. And so now we have this, this structure of intensive home retreat, where people are, you know, setting aside a bunch of days, in whatever way they can like some people, you know, fully going into noble silence at home, other people, you know, just tuning in for the calls, but trying to simplify, as best they can, you know, some people fitting it in, you know, but they still have to do a little bit of work, you know, like, it's so flexible, right? But then folks are, are, you know, getting on doing morning chanting, sitting in meditation together, hearing instructions, you know, in a systemic way over several days, sitting several times a day together, doing, you know, metta practice together, hearing a talk together asking, asking questions, and it's really like, Oh, this, this is the integration retreat, that we were always kind of looking for interesting. You know, it's like, oh, it's integrated. Because, you know, there's no way to dis integrate, it's not like you can, you know, unless you live alone, and then you, you know, it's more like a retreat, but even then, you know, it's not like your neighbors know that you're on retreat, and are gonna, like, not play AC DC, or something, whatever, they're, you know, I mean, there wasn't Burma, somebody practicing, but on a next door, like, like, right, the, in a way home retreat is like that. Only even more at home, you know, here comes my kid running, running in and, and, you know, I do extra long practice in the morning, and then I have to go and you know, go to the store and cook for myself, rather than, you know, the very nice cooks at spirit rock making me extraordinary food, people would be like, I come to spirit, like, just for the food, it's so good. And then like, somebody cooks for me and cleans up for me, basically. And, you know, just that is a retreat and, and home retreat is now like, okay, work meditation, go do your own dishes, like clean your own house, you know, sure. But even more so like, Okay, do a bunch of practice now, do some loving kindness, practice. Now go play with your kid, and then come back for the talk at seven o'clock. And, and I just think that that this is a wonderful innovation, really, that that will absolutely continue past pandemic time, like our planetary sphere, I really like when we resume on land retreats, I know that we'll continue to have a robust virtual offering. And and we'll definitely still offer, you know, some home retreats. And in a sense, it's both home retreats. And it's also like, one of the pieces that I think of it in relation to climate and climate change. And, you know, as much as I'm thrilled for people to come from far away to spear rock desert retreat, I have students in, you know, South America and Europe, and whatnot. And when we started, when I started doing home retreats, this year, I had students say, you know, like, I would love to have flown to California, to sit meditation, you know, with you all, but it's actually great. I'm just here in, you know, in my home, in Columbia, or wherever, and this is great, like, don't fly people like it's, there's there's this way that like, oh, people could be on retreat from anywhere, basically, anywhere that the time zones, you know, allow. And and I think this is also really wise action in in the time of climate change, not just for not just for COVID.
Host 38:42
Right. And it seems neat to think of these timeless teachings of the Buddha, that were delivered in a very different time and era of our own, being so adaptable and seeing how they can be all kinds of different world and social and political, economic situation, technical situations, how those same core of timeless teachings can continue to be adapted so that they're relevant and useful and practical for people living their lives in the time and era that they are.
Sean Feit Oakes 39:12
This has always been the heart of the lineage that the Buddha began, you know, it was, it was not a place based lineage. It wasn't like this is the holy mountain. This is the holy river in a way that wouldn't travel. Right? It was. And in that sense, it was already it was already a step away from indigeneity. Right. The Buddha didn't say this is the sacred religion of you know, the the maga area. Sure, you know, He really said, you know, these are teachings that that do translate right in that story where he has the our hands go out and, you know, spread the Dhamma. He also says, you know, teaching the language of the people, he says teaching the vernacular, you know, and so there's always been this, this process. You know that in the West any way we could call evangelical, right, this kind of spreading the Dhamma process where it changes, you know, it changed when it went to China and encountered Taoism and Confucianism. And, and, you know, new doctrines came in and old doctrines were shifted, and, you know, it changed as it got rooted in the Tibetan plateau and met the local spirits, they're the local deities, and, and in a sense, invited them in, you know, or, or Buddhism was invited in to what was already there, you know, and they mixed, and in this way, when the Dharma came to the west, both in the stream of the many immigrant communities that established Buddhism here, and then later in the, we could say, other immigrant communities, white folks who went to Asia and and brought folks back here, in and, you know, into the Convert lineages convert Zen convert tera, vaada, etc. It has in all of those instances, it has morphed and changed to meet the times and the to meet the new place. And given how many how much crisis the world has seen, and how deeply Buddhism in, in many different places, has, has met, the crises as they've arisen. This, this, in a sense, to me feels, you know, within my lifetime, it feels like, Oh, this is this kind of big Cataclysm, but it's not apocalyptic. You know, this is not the end of the world. This is actually just more of the world, there's always been pandemics, there's always been wars, there's always been the end of Empire. And Buddhism has has persisted in this relatively stable, in some cases, format, changing all the time, but there's been a persistent, you know, core to it. For really this, you know, very long period, the way that folks say that the Tera vaada, monastic organization is the oldest continuously operating Corporation in the world. Haven't heard that right? Corporation meaning operating by the same set of bylaws, right, with the vinaya as the bylaws. Yeah, this is a very stable, institution. Good point, you know, and, and so I feel it actually buoys my spirit, living in what feels to me sometimes, like a very apocalyptic time, to, to feel that, you know, it has changed tremendously. And, you know, colonialism changed it tremendously. But but the core insights that the Buddha put forward seem to continue to communicate in a in a relatively direct way, like we read, you know, you read a good translation of the suitors and you get it like that the insight hits you it's, it's still available. And, and this, this is really just a source of faith. For me, you know, that the Buddha sasana, that the dispensation of the Buddha is still the wheel is still rolling, you know, and I think this is this is a beautiful, beautiful thing to to take part in, in this time.
Host 43:10
Right, right. So we've talked a bit about the teachers, the administrators, how the center operated, what's been going on in the world. What you've done with courses, the area I'd like to turn to Next is the students themselves and looking at it from their perspective, you've obviously dealt with a number of students as a teacher, I assume, also, as an administrator, or server helper, somehow you've seen their spiritual struggles and successes over many years, looking at what students are going through now, do you see any shift in kind of what people are going through? What's coming up how they're working with it? Or do you just see kind of more of the same as it's been? It's just, it's it's the same process, but it's just a different way that it's being taken on with the details?
Sean Feit Oakes 43:54
Hmm. That's an interesting question. I would be interested to hear what you know, some of our students would directly would say about that. From my perspective, one of the things that seems most prominent in relation to to this year particularly and COVID is, is isolation. That, you know, that we hold as, as profoundly central to the, to the Dharma, that spiritual community is tremendously important. And, and so you know, people come on retreat, or they come to, to sit in groups. And, and they really feel like they, they have a community of like minded folks, a community, a spiritual community to resonate with. And it's just not the same on a zoom call, like, it's different is it's wonderful. In some ways, people are far away, you know, people are still connecting with each other. Humans have an extraordinary ability. It's Seems to, to keep figuring out how to connect with each other socially relationally you know, despite all obstacles, but there are totally people who we've lost, you know, temporarily, hopefully, you know, who are just like, I, I've heard it myself, you know, friends, or folks that I know, students that I know have been, like, I just can't really deal with another zoom call. It's like, I'm on zoom meetings all day for work, I just, I can't, you know, come to the sitting room at night. And it's just another zoom call, you know, and I get that, yeah, how, how tired, my eyes are of the screen, you know, and only seeing people you know, in these little glowy boxes. And so, you know, we're, we're resilient, but we're not, you know, we're not gluttons for punishment. So, you know, we've lost some folks for sure, who just don't resonate with the virtual format. And, and my hope is that, that, you know, those folks are enjoying their, their non technological time as best they can, and practicing and getting support in whatever way they can. And that they, of course, they come back, you know, as soon as we can gather in person together. But that's the, that's one of the main things that I think about for the students this year, is really, is really the sense of isolation. And a lot of what I'm trying to do in my role at spirit rock. And what many of us in the administration and the teaching body are trying to do is to try to figure out how to how to bridge that gap, you know, how to how to do online events, where folks actually do feel more connected to each other, you know, more small groups, you know, less noble silence, of course, more conversation more ways for people to feel like they're actually in a room with other humans and not just, you know, on their couch alone, where they spend the whole rest of their time. So trying to respond to isolation is one, and, you know, and the other main thing in this year and this year and last year, I'd say, but really accelerating over the last several, is a strong urge from not not all but many parts of our practitioner community, our student body to respond in a, in a wise and, and communal way, to the crisis of racism in this country, and to figure out how to how to respond as a community, to the the political situation, how do we as as Buddhists, as convert Buddhists, how do we respond as activists? How do the traditions as we've learned them, you know, from the the tera, vaada source traditions or from the other source traditions, how do they speak to social action, and really support what what feels like, you know, a very authentic and, you know, strongly arising impulse to, to act to act wisely in this time of civic unrest. And, you know, it just seems like the times are demanding a response, and I think many of our many people in our student body feel that quite acutely, and then turn to us, you know, turn to their spiritual teachers broadly, for guidance on how to how to respond how to be in social action through a Buddhist lens through through a mindfulness lens. And, and that's a complex conversation, there's, there's so many layers there. And sure, and I think a lot of what we've tried to do at spirit rock is, is just keep that conversation, keep those conversations foreground for us, and really give platform to teachers within our teaching body, that that are really speaking to that. So to, to try to amplify using whatever platform we have, whatever cultural weight we have, as a large center, to, to really lean into supporting teachers who are active in the intersection of the Dharma and and social justice and anti oppression work, and really build the Buddhist side of the conversation in this country, that is, that sometimes runs in parallel to the progressive left but other times doesn't, you know, but and really, but that draws on Buddhist principles draws on the Dharma is grounded in the Dharma. And I think that's a long term project, right one that's been quite acute in the in recent years and and really, I think they're beautifully central in the concerns of our student body. Now, this
Host 49:58
is a time for it. That's for sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, great. Thank you so much for taking that time to share all of this, you really have a lot of great things going on. And it's wonderful to hear about how you've been developing in spite of these difficult conditions. Was there anything else you wanted to add?
Sean Feit Oakes 50:18
I want to mainly just wish everyone well, safety in this in this precarious time. And I encourage folks to come and check us out at spirit rock.org. See what we're offering check out the home retreats and and the various things that you can now stream from anywhere. And really to hold the principles of the Dharma and the you know, the inspiration that we get from this, from this tradition, just close in our hearts as we as we find our way together through this very challenging time. So all of us here, just offer our blessings to everyone listening, for our practice and for getting through this as the wheel continues to turn.
Host 51:04
Yeah, thank you for that. And best luck with everything you're doing. And thank you for the services that you're providing for larger meditator community, spread around the world now.
Sean Feit Oakes 51:13
Thank you so much. Such a pleasure talking with you.
Host 51:21
I assume I thank you so much for joining us here on the Insight Myanmar podcast.
Ayya Soma 51:26
Thank you for having me today. Yeah,
Host 51:30
great. So first of all, can you tell us a little bit about your monastery empty cloud monastery at the time before this whole pandemic hit? What were the normal activities? What were the normal offerings in times more normal than what we're living in right now?
Ayya Soma 51:48
Yeah, sure. So I don't think it was ever normal for us. Because we actually moved into the new place. So in St. Cloud monastery in West Orange, New Jersey, at the end of December 2019. So like, a couple of months before the pandemics started kicking in here in the United States. And before that, we were in Rockaway Beach in New York City for four years. So it was an entirely different setup and setting a neighborhood. So we moved in, at the end of December, we started actually, we inaugurated the new monastery with a month long jhana retreat. So we had lots of friends, lay friends who came to practice with us at the monastery, because we wanted to set you know, to start the new place with the right vibe with a good solid chunk of meditation practice and, you know, also start the year, the right foot. And then after that, we kind of I guess we, we started getting familiar with the neighborhood with the new neighborhood where we were so we were doing a little bit of what we were we had been doing for four years in Rockaway Beach, which was offering meditation retreats, Dharma study retreats, led by monks and nuns of all different Buddhist traditions. And so we had venerable Chanda Come and join us and leading a weekend retreat from the UK. We had some of the friends from the tech, not Han tradition come in, and lead days of mindfulness. We had venerable dama de la from California, lead another five day retreat, and then lots of different workshops to welcome the people in the neighborhood who are very excited about having a Buddhist monastery Finally, close to home, since we're the only one in this particular area of the country, but definitely in New Jersey. So as we were, you know, getting familiar getting acquainted, to the new settings, new buildings, new community, new, new family of people, the pandemic started, we had to, you know, kind of reconfigure everything from scratch. Sure, but it's been both, you know, something really dramatic for a lot of people, but also it's been a blessing for a lot of people in so many ways, this pandemic, so our community has obviously had a lot of different struggles like everyone else, like every, you know, person, I think around the world really, in these times, but at the same time, it kind of created the conditions for our newborn monastery to somewhat develop and take shape. And a lot of different people have joined this community in the meanwhile, some have decided to go forth. So we have bumped the su mano, who's been a good friend for several years from Jamaica who decided to go forth in this monastery this summer. And we have some other friends that looks like they're going to get into ropes in the next couple of weeks.
Host 55:36
So we're forced by that you mean ordaining into a monastic life of being a monk or nun?
Ayya Soma 55:42
Correct? Yes. Yes. So we're a gender inclusive monastery. So we have monastics we use the word monk actually as gender neutral, so we all define ourselves as monks. So whether it's male, or female monks, right now, I'm the only bikuni at the monastery, but we have some female aspirants that are joining as residents and want to go forth. So yeah, so it's exciting amidst the drama.
Host 56:19
It sounds that way. Yeah. So it sounds like you, you guys have been really active as a Buddhist monastery, and with diverse Buddhist activities in New York City, and you're moved to upstate with probably all the plans and programs you were looking to run just coincided with this whole pandemic hitting us as it hit all of us and various unexpected stations and moments in our life, and you had to adjust. Do you remember, like, I think that the pandemic didn't come in a certain day. But the realization of how serious it was did come to us at different times. So I'm wondering if there was a specific moment at the monastery where you all kind of looked at each other, and realize how serious this was, and that this was going to be a disruption of what your plans and hopes were? And when that hit you, how you felt and how you responded? And what course of action you took.
Ayya Soma 57:15
Yeah, yeah, thank you for asking. And that's very important, because I feel, actually, it was a big teaching of greed, hatred, and delusion, especially a lot of delusion. So not wanting to really look at the gravity of the situation. I think we've all experienced that. At a certain point, but I'm originally from Italy. So I was born and bred there. And Italy was one of the first countries who was severely hit. So I have several friends that also have been affected by COVID-19. So somewhat happened. You know, since in Italy, happened earlier on than the United States, I was lucky enough to, to come to an awareness of the severity of the pandemic, you know, earlier than before that actually New Jersey, the state of New Jersey and the state of New York, understood how severe and how bad it was. So before the lockdown was so empty cloud monastery went on lockdown mode in lockdown mode before, before the actual state. I see. That
Host 58:31
was all my questions. Yeah.
Ayya Soma 58:32
Yeah. And that was mainly Actually, we had gone to Thailand for two weeks in February. And that's when there was a some sort of awareness that the pandemic was spreading throughout the world. But I have to say that back then I wasn't taking it very seriously, unfortunately, as well as other, you know, lay friends or other monastic friends, it was a little bit too early because we couldn't see any symptoms. So so that's why I'm saying it's been a great teaching of the illusion. Because sometimes all the you know, the, the facts and all the material is there, but we decide not to see it, because it's uncomfortable. And then as we came back, all the news started coming from Italy. And at the same time, there was a lot of anxiety because we have just moved here and the monastery is new, and we actually have a mortgage. It hasn't been paid all in full the building. So there were all the concerns of how are we going to survive, you know, without the without actually seeing people and offering Dharma programs offering retreats. So as a real concern in the mind, we're not you know, an organization we're very grassroots organization. We are not supported by any pre existing Community of either Asian Buddhists or, you know, we're not part of a larger organization. So the struggle was real, so to speak. So that same time, we had all these retreats scheduled, actually it was the first one in March was supposed to be led by myself and bumped this without Him, who is the co co founder with myself of empty called monastery and Buddhist insights, that nonprofit, and we just looked at each other. And with the information that we had from my family and friends in Italy, in from the newspapers there, we just had to do what felt compassionate. And we were like, well, if we're going to close the monastery, because of this, well, so be it. But we can't risk the health of the people that are coming here on the retreat. So we cancelled the retreat, and we just locked everything down. And, and we were gonna resigned to any sort of possible outcome. And I have to say that people have been incredibly supportive and generous, which is why we're still we still have a monastery in November 2020. And we still have food to eat, people have been coming to to feed us on a regular basis. So lots of gratitude, I have to say lots of gratitude.
Host 1:01:26
Yeah, sure, sure. Can you describe a little something of the trustees, the management of the teachers when you came to the conclusion that So first, the pandemic hit right, and then you realize this is serious thing, we need to lock down, and it's a disruption of normal life. But then for everyone, it doesn't go away, and it still is not going away, we don't know how long it's going to stay with us. So it's not just an uncomfortable or disruptive period we have to get through, but it's kind of this everlasting Duka that we don't know, we have no knowledge or sense of when we're going to come out of it. And once some of the people at your monastery started to gain that realization, that we don't know when this is going to go away. We don't know how long this lockdown or unusual circumstances are going to be in place. How did that begin to affect the mission and attitude at the center? At the monastery? I should say?
Ayya Soma 1:02:22
Yeah, of course, there being lots of different minds involved in the organization besides myself, and but this causes Different people have different reactions. So there's either you know, anxiety, agitation, financial concerns, as I was mentioning, or perhaps also just concerns of how, how can we be still a supportive presence for people? Because in a way, you know, spiritual practice is an essential business for the well being for the mental health of people. So how can we support people's mental health? And at the same time support, also their physical health? So that was a matter of debate here, like how could we? How could we meet all of these requirements? And there was a bit of brainstorming, but there was a time constraint as well, in terms of, you know, making the decision of whether to shut down the monastery or have the retreat that I was mentioning earlier. And so back then, actually, you know, so in Italy, or in Europe, where people were hit pretty badly, actually, they they were mentioning, you know, a three week lockdown, or a four week lockdown, something like that. So we're like, Okay, well, that sounds reasonable. Basically, we're just going to shut down for a month, and then take it from there. And so we decided to actually offer support to people online. So we were one of the first organizations that offered a live stream straight away, because it seemed like the sort of most sane thing to do. And we actually did a, I did it in a little bit insane way, which was offering two live streams a day every day. So we were having between 14 to 16 live stream. So we also offered retreats back in, in March and April. And we're like, Okay, well, we're gonna do this to the end of the pandemic, thinking that it was like four weeks, but that'd be in five weeks, six weeks, seven weeks, eight weeks, nine weeks, 10 weeks. Right. And in June, actually, we were pretty exhausted, like myself bump this up docile. And three other residents that were here of the of the monastery, so we're only five actually residing here. And so that that's when we were like We need to scale down a little bit. And because it seems like this is not a problem that is going to be resolved in what definitely hasn't been resolved in three weeks, nor in four weeks, nor in one month, two months, three months, four months. But at the same time, you know, start looking at our at our practice, so finding a balance between giving and between giving to others and giving to ourselves. And others the same time, we also started food programs to feed people, families in need here at empty cloud. So there has been a lot of food insecurity, obviously, given the problems of the pandemic, especially immigrant communities here that comprise a lot of essential workers. So in particular, the Hispanic community was really hit in the area that we are, where we live in. So we kind of just looked that what we could do, what was in our means of, of ability to help our immediate neighbors as well as, you know, our, our Dharma friends in the online sphere. And then as the summer in event, we also started doing as much as possible outdoor programs, and that we keep on doing and now it's the end of November, so it's becoming significantly colder. But this weekend, since the temperature is raising, it's going a little up for a couple of days, we're offering meditation and hiking retreat of the reservation, close by and and so people can both do, you know, practice social distancing, but at the same time, you know, practice mindfulness and get a little bit grounded and, and learn that actually, a lot of times, certain situations can be actually great opportunities to really understand the teachings, especially if you know, of course, if someone is into Buddhist practice, a lot of times we talked about before noble truths, and we really overlook the first noble truth of suffering. And we, you know, we kind of take it for granted. Okay, yeah, so there's suffering, let me get, let me just work on getting out of it. And so this, I think, creates the conditions to overlook what the Buddha is really talking about in terms of suffering, which is not just, you know, I don't like my job, or I'm not satisfied in my relationship, or, you know, things are not that great, they could be better, but we're talking about old age, sickness and death. And during this pandemic, it was impossible, it is impossible. It's not, whilst it is impossible to overlook this real truth of what we're talking about, there are people dying, there is this incredible, fast, quick sickness that takes people on and kills them. And it's awful, it's incredibly, incredibly horrible, and it affects the elder people even more. So it is, like, within this suffering, it's important to, to take the time to, to really learn from it and understand why it's important than to under, you see the cause of suffering, enter and the end of suffering and follow the path for them, cessation of suffering. So it's a very powerful, I would say, you know, teaching that, that 2020 is giving us.
Host 1:08:39
So you've shared a number of ways that you've innovated with, under the current circumstances, like offering different kinds of courses offering zoom and teachings online that weren't done prior to the extent you're doing now. What kind of response? Have you seen to some of these offerings on the part of the students?
Ayya Soma 1:08:58
Oh, people have been extremely grateful. And so we have, we actually use YouTube Live for most of the things that we do. So things that gave people so bit of a break from the zoom offerings that are more interactive, I guess. So some of our some of our friends were quite happy to just, you know, use YouTube and type. Yes, US Buddhists were a little bit more introverted. Sometimes, so. Yeah, people were quite happy. It also allowed, interestingly enough, many people to have more access to the Dharma because they live in places where there is not, you know, a temple close by. So we had people from the Midwest, log in, or just different places where a lot of people from Florida, where there's not, they didn't have prior to the pandemic, the opportunity to go and look Learn at a temple learn from monastics. So yeah, actually, we made a lot of new virtual friends that go from, you know, Malaysia, all the way to Italy, actually to my home country. Growing by Arkansas in different states, Oklahoma, you're in the United States. So that has been, I have to say, a beautiful gift, too, to be able to have the opportunity to share the Dharma with so many people. Sure. And who've been very grateful that this was finally available. And from there to be able to point them out also to different monasteries, sometimes they were actually close to monasteries, close to Dharma centers, but they weren't aware of it. So one of the missions of Buddhist insights, the nonprofit that monkeys and myself started five years ago is to connect people with monastics. So a lot of times people, you know, get in touch with us, but we don't, you know, just tell them okay, stay with Buddhist insights. And that's it. Listen only to worry so much about this data, but rather also point them out to to other monastics and also different traditions. So yeah, are some of the friends in Australia we point them out to our friends like Bhante Sujata or Banta, Calico who are also offering live streams on a regular basis, Jim Brown, of course, or people in England venerable Chanda, as well, as you know, our friends, I'm going to have a theme here in the US. So similarly, if they have chance centers close to them close by or wherever if we have resources, presenting them. And so people had the opportunity, once again, to have to start building relationships with communities, that then they can also join in person, once things will get, hopefully in, you know, sort of more humane level of interaction outside rather than just digital. Yeah, we also once again, got lots of people here at the new monastery. We're in the suburbs, actually. So we're not in the forest nor in the city. We're in a bit of an in between. And we have quite a bit of quite a few weeks, not not that much, not many acres, but a few acres, large enough to have outdoor program. So we're with quite a few people. So it definitely was a source of wholesomeness. And so people could come still, you know, be together with other Kalyan Amita spiritual friends, but at the same time, protect their health be, you know, social distancing. So yeah, the reception has been incredibly good. And, once again, people have been extremely generous. So they also have the opportunity to, to practice the virtuous qualities that the Buddha encouraged us to develop and supporting the monastic Sangha. And we've been, that's how we're still alive today. We also have some videos of donated some beautiful Buddha statues here at the monastery, we have a Guanyin Bodhisattva. Now. So yeah, we we've been showered with, with blessings, I have to say, we're very grateful. Yeah, that's
Host 1:13:34
great to hear, you know, sometimes when a difficult situation hits, human nature can respond in a number of ways. And I think times like this, allow us to see the strength of some of our institutions and the different parts of our human nature. So it's great to hear that, at a time of difficulty like this, you're actually having people step up in some ways, even perhaps above and beyond in the normal flow of things. And that actually leads to the next question I have staying on the topic of the students response to some of the activities you're doing what you're noticing, you know, in your position, as a spiritual teacher, you've worked with a wide range of students over the course of their own journey and some of the struggles and issues they go through. You might have seen some patterns given where you are and who you're what types of people you're working with, as the pandemic has continued to progress. What are you seeing in the shape of like how the meditators and practitioners that are coming to you or they're hearing your discourses? Are you seeing different kinds of issues or struggles or things they're working through than other times that before the pandemic?
Ayya Soma 1:14:50
Actually, yes, well, you know, the pandemic here in the US, contrary to where I'm originally from, where it kind of hit pretty much much anyone throughout the spectrum of society, so whether you were on sort of the wealthier side or on the lower end of the spectrum within the society, you know, didn't, it didn't really see any sort of differences. But here in the US, for, obviously, the complicated history of this country, it has hit significantly more people of color. So who have been affected? pretty badly. By the the connection, it was obvious, it was obvious, I'm also hearing in New Jersey. And so this created, obviously, also the conditions for I'm pretty sure you followed the news. So in, in the spring for, for several, with George, the killing of George Floyd for a lot of issues that are of discrimination and of racism that have never been resolved here in the United States, to come to the surface. And for them to become a sort of subject of conversation and hear in Buddhist insights. Historically, we've had a very diverse group of practitioners. So half of the people identify as people of color, and they come from the most diverse backgrounds, so we have literally every single continent represented Buddhist insights, and, and also the age range is on the younger side as well. So most people are between 20 and 40. Historically, so obviously, all of these issues were coming, were very present were very much subject of discussion. And what was apparent in all the spiritual circles, whether there were Buddhist or not Buddhist was the what we can call, you know, tendency of spiritual bypassing. So if people not feeling heard, or not getting whatever they were presenting as a struggle is that they were experiencing as issues that were being acknowledged. And that created Actually, I have to say, from us, monastics, we came to a point where we realized that even though we were actually addressing these issues, we hadn't really made an actual statement. And that not making an actual statement, but only talking about these issues within that Mattox had created, what's contributing to this, this sort of confusion of what how is what is practitioner supposed to deal with the with these issues, so bonkers 2000, I started talking about it and seeing how this was creating a lot of suffering in a lot of the people that we know and in the community at large. So we decided to actually make a statement and have a kind of q1 live livestream q&a with people asking us questions of what we thought about the subject matter. We also participated in one of the Black Lives Matters, as you say, protests here in in Jersey, and we thought that, you know, it was the right time to make actual strong statements that racism is not okay. And that discriminating on on people is against the Buddhist teachings. So, so I would say that these were, were the struggles that came up, and whether we did you know, a good job or not in addressing them, it's not up to me to say, but what I think is, what has been a good lesson from that is the understanding that there have to be more conversations about this. And as Dharma teachers, as monastics, as whatever kind of role we have, within Buddhist communities, it's very important not to be silent, and not to be complicit of discrimination, but actually be very clear in what is in accordance to Dhamma. And what is not in accordance to dharma. Dharma centers should be or monasteries should be places for refuge for people, it shouldn't be just a place where you go and feel good and Don't think about anything. But actually it should be a place where people are also heard and you know, hug the whether physically or spiritually metaphorically speaking, but where they feel welcomed and we have the courage to to discuss these things and Instead of pretending that, you know, there is no self. So, you know, nobody should get annoyed about being discriminated upon. I guess what I'm trying to say is that sometimes these, these teachings are so precious, so beautiful, the Dharma is incredibly powerful, but it can be used in a way that is not helpful, can be used in a way that actually is oppressing people, and then turning them away from the teachings of the Buddha instead of being used skillfully as a vehicle for liberation. And the Buddha once again, it's my understanding that he never turned away from suffering, but actually encouraged us to look, understand suffering deeply, look at it and transcend it not pretend, oh, yeah, everything is okay. Because there is no self. So like when, for example, Venerable kisa, gotami, before she became a venerable, lost her child, he didn't go just, oh, well, you know, of course, we all die. Well, but there is no self. So who cares? No, he acknowledged her suffering. He helped her out, he helped her understand the fact that death is not exclusive to one particular being, but it's a universal concept. It's something that applies to every single human that is born by one birth, get one death free. In the same way, I think it's important to have honest, clear discussions about all these issues. I hope this answered your question.
Host 1:21:42
Yeah, no, that's very interesting. I'm just reflecting that you know, you're a monastery that is that has had a four year plus history of running these intensive meditation retreats by some of the great venerable teachers in the world who come to your center, and that you've have just recently moved to the countryside, where you're, I presume, able to have a bit more open space and quiet and be able to sink more deeply into the silence, and then you got caught. The year 2020, as we all are, where this barrage of worldly pain and storms just hit all of us, we have, we haven't even talked about all of them. And there's no need to but you know, at least on the subject of the pandemic, and the raise concerns, these are enough. And these are these are quite, quite serious. And it sounds like your monastery made the decision to pivot towards them. And even though you had had this program and this plan for these more intensive retreats, both with the pandemic, as well as some of the protests that were going on, that you put your resources and teachings, not only into the spiritual field of still doing some kind of mindfulness retreats, as was possible with social distancing, and with giving discourses, or maybe instructions on zoom. But you also did things like organized food drives for those in need, and to speak out against and participate in some of the protests that are going on at the moment. So it sounds like you You made a very intentional turn to want to apply these spiritual teachings in a very worldly way with what was going on in our lives at this time. Yeah, I
Ayya Soma 1:23:19
never thought about it that way. But that's a very good summary, actually. And also, once again, it's very good teaching to really understand that the Dharma is something that needs to be applicable in every single moment of our life, whether there is a pandemic going on, there is not a pandemic, whether we're encountering people who are, you know, having a difficult time finding food to eat, or whether we are dealing with people that have a full belly, and just responding to anything that comes up in front of us. I remember meeting venerable attics up high who was one of the senior disciples of tick not Han, and he was talking about the definition of engaged Buddhism, which simply means so he was telling us being present in every single moment with whatever is, you know, the difficulty that whatever is the suffering that in, you know, is manifesting. So, so yeah, I guess this was the time 2020 has been the time for us to to practice engaged Buddhism, but I think we did it exactly in that way that was not, you know, like planning or strategizing, but rather, just responding seeing what is the appropriate response right now, to what is currently currently going on, which is currently arising either within the monastery or outside the monastery, you know, in the community or in the city. close by, because we're right at St. York City. Like what, what are the things that that need to be addressed and trying our best to, to act in the most skillful way possible in accordance to Dhamma. And of course, we're not perfect. So I'm, I'm pretty sure that not everything we did is perfect. But there's the aspiration for perfection. There's the aspiration for enlightenment. And so hopefully, we're closer to awakening.
Host 1:25:32
Do you feel so some of the innovations that you've done in this pivot that you've made in wanting to face and respond to these oral these situations head on, to feel this as kind of a momentary shift in terms of what the needs are at the moment? Or do you feel that something a bit more powerful and dramatic that it might be affecting the very mission or fundamental nature of what your monastery is and how it behaves in the world?
Ayya Soma 1:25:57
Yes, absolutely. As with everyone in the world, right now, I think the pandemic has been a bit of a big earthquake in our lives, and also somewhat creative created the conditions to see what is important and what is not important. So of course, the lockdown and everything has accelerated the monastery part of our monastery and retreat center. So before, I think we were operating more as a retreat center, right, and now we're operating more as a monastery. And so I'm not quite sure what exactly the future will be. We'll only know then. But, um, but yeah, of course, there's no, there's no turning back to the form, shape and line that we were in the past, that's all gone. We've had a new rebirth. So we'll see there is, once again, we're just practicing engaged Buddhism. Right now, there's lots of enthusiasm as I was mentioning in terms of being of joining this community also in in robes. So people who are who are aspiring to be to be monastics. So that's what we're currently working at here. And it's also as I was mentioning, a gender inclusive monastery. So there's also interesting conversations that we're having in what exactly that looks like, especially since we're all wearing the robes, there is not really a pre existing model to look at to copy and paste. So this is creating some really interesting conversations, and also the realization that sometimes things are a problem only if we make them into a problem, which is quite refreshing. But you know, it's all new. So. So that's why I'm saying that there's a lot of blessings because probably these conversations wouldn't have happened or these dynamics wouldn't have happened had, you know, such a tragic thing, like the pandemic hit us. And yeah, we'll, we'll see.
Host 1:28:18
It sounds like you're juggling a lot there.
Ayya Soma 1:28:20
Yes, absolutely. We never get bored here.
Host 1:28:28
Well, I really appreciate the time that you made today with everything else you have going on, and to be able to share a bit about how your monastery has progressed, and where you're at now with the pandemic and how you're responding to it. And before we close out, was there anything else you wanted to add?
Ayya Soma 1:28:42
Um, no, thank you so much for having me today. And I'm really happy that you're doing this project Insight, Myanmar, seen a lot of friends that were featured in the podcasts. So keep keep up the good work. I've also seen actually, the fundraiser is that you all have supported for the female monastics in Burma, Assad, Assad Assad. So that's all really good work. So sending many blessings to you all. Yeah, thank
Host 1:29:12
you. Thank you. That's wonderful. And I'm sure we'll, we'll chat more about some more topics in the future with you personally, or other people connected to your monastery and wishing you all the best for moving forward.
Ayya Soma 1:29:22
Likewise, thank you.
Host 1:29:30
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Dick Delanoy 1:31:30
That's right. We're in Southeast Georgia, outside of Jessup, been here for 13 years.
Host 1:31:38
Oh, okay. Great. And you're at the passionate center there.
1:31:42
That's right.
Host 1:31:42
Right, can you tell us a bit about the name of the center and its history and connection to the larger tradition.
Dick Delanoy 1:31:49
This is a Vipassana in the tradition of sn Goenka and Juba, kin. And our particular center is called dama pataka majesty of Dhamma.
Host 1:32:01
So this is part of the wider tradition of the passion and the tradition of Sri Lanka. So during normal times pre pandemic, can you let us know a bit how these centers usually operate? Okay.
Dick Delanoy 1:32:16
We usually have at least at our center, we have about a capacity for 60 students at a time. Each course we do about 15 to 18 courses a year, we don't do anything else other than run these courses. There are 10 day courses. For most students, after a while we we have longer courses, 20 and 30 day courses for students, more experienced students.
Host 1:32:40
Great. So in normal times, this is generally how your centers are running. Of course, these aren't normal times. And the first thing I'm curious about is when the realization started to dawn on you that things were going to be quite different. The pandemic obviously didn't hit at an exact moment in time, but the realization of what was happening hit different people in different ways. So for you specifically, and maybe your crew of other teachers and administrators and trustees at that center in Georgia, when did this realization start to dawn on you?
Dick Delanoy 1:33:17
Well, we've been following information about the pandemic in late February, and we're beginning to make plans about what to do with it. And there was a point it seemed like overnight, we're all of a sudden it's shifted from Well, we could do this and we can do this too. Okay, we have to shut down. I guess it was at that point where the the curve started going exponential. And it wasn't that high compared to what it is now. But it was shockingly high at that time. So we close the Center for the rest of the spring. And most of the summer. We had a few servers who stayed on after the last course that we conducted in February, and early March. And my partner and I, Erica, who are both at is here, assistant teachers here we became caretakers of the place. We started having courses for them for the two of them. And then when a couple other people arrived, we included them. But everyone who came had to be quarantined for 14 days on site, they'd usually do a self course before we would actually allow them to mix. And given that strategy, we've been able to keep our servers totally isolated from students who after we did start tentatively running courses again. We it's almost like a firewall between students and everyone else. I mean, I'm sorry, between servers and everyone else the teachers have to interact with students, but the servers don't interact at all. And as a consequence, they're able to work together as a team without hat wearing masks in the kitchen, or anywhere else for that matter. And as long as they're on the site. It's like a little monastery now that we never go anywhere anymore except to go to Walmart and get back curbside pickup for food and supplies. Right? You
Host 1:35:03
mentioned how the the servers and the students have zero interaction at all. There's like a firewall is that different than normal times what? in pre pandemic, what would be the normal interaction between servers and students
Dick Delanoy 1:35:15
do different kinds of servers once the kitchen staff, they put the meals out in the meals were eaten, eaten in a dining room attached to the kitchen, the students could ring a bell for a doorbell for assistance, if that something ran out, or they needed something or other, they were sharing the same airspace in the building. The other type of server is what we call course managers, and they provide direct contact with students in terms of helping them with mundane issues like they need a blanket or they need the air conditioning fixed or a light bulbs out or they need a toiletry that they didn't bring anything like that. Oh, also serve two meals a day, breakfast and lunch, and a tea time where all students would drink lemon water or tea and new students might have a piece of fruit. Now, the students who come they bring their own breakfast fixings, they do that on their own lunch is provided in bento boxes, little plastic, three chamber boxes with the handle on it that we for a while we were putting them out beside their residences, now we're putting them in a central location where the students come to get it themselves and then bring it back when they're done. So except for picking up the dishes and putting it in bleach, that's the only contact that the kitchen staff has no.
Host 1:36:37
Right. Right. And when you initially made this decision to just lock down over spring, was that a decision based on your own thinking among trustees and teachers at the center? Or was it reflective of wider state guidelines?
Dick Delanoy 1:36:53
Both both we have a center reopening committee that started right there at the at the beginning, I see we had a number of assistant teachers on it, we had a cup, one of our administrators on it. And we had, we had the benefit of a professor of community health, public health, who was in our southeast area, and she has connections with CDC. So she was also influential in helping us gauge our response. And I think in those days, we were so shell shocked deer in a headlight that closing down seemed like the only thing to do now in retrospect, we're holding courses. And there's five times as many people getting the disease. Now, there's a calculation I did recently that I'm gonna five southeast states that we serve, there's been 18,000 people each day get get the virus are confirmed as having the virus.
Host 1:37:48
Right. I see. So as you were making these decisions, I understand that in this tradition, there's also other centers that are nearby and other states, other non centers that also have their own committees. And then of course, in other countries, how was this operating in tandem or their conversations from one center to the other where each was each group solely independent on being able to make their own decision and decision process going forward?
Dick Delanoy 1:38:16
There was a lot of information exchanged. But we've pretty much run each center independently, they make their own judgment about what's safe in their area. Their own infrastructure helps decide what they can, what they can do, how many students they can take. So it's better. Pretty much every center decides herself. There's a number of the centers in North America that still haven't opened yet.
Host 1:38:39
I see.
Dick Delanoy 1:38:40
Then a couple that started before us. I think that we became confident enough, we started with some teachers who wanted to do a self course here. And that's when we started delivering meals to them, and they will do their own breakfast. And once we saw that pattern, we thought, well, let's try four, then let's try eight. Right now we're up to 20 students at a time 20 in the normal capacity is 16. And the normal capacity is around 60. Yes.
Host 1:39:08
Right. And in terms of those centers that have reopened, are they following a similar set of protocol or as every every senator in this tradition, kind of doing something different, according to their own evaluation
Dick Delanoy 1:39:18
is pretty much doing it differently. I don't think anyone's doing the bento box procedures we have. I see. They're still doing meals, although they're serving them individually. And I'm not 100% sure that actually we haven't had that much communication lately. Some of the center's are small enough anyway, that that they didn't really need to do that much adjustment. It sounds like one of the thing we're doing differently and this is also a fairly big deal is that we restrict the number of students in the hall to a small number. Initially, we weren't letting students in the meditation hall at all that they were doing their courses, as self courses in their Hall and over the last six courses. We've gotten a little more adventuresome about letting people into the hall right now what we do is a maximum of five men and five women in the hall. On this course my partner Erica is conducting in the hall. With those students, and of the 10, we, we do a switchover in the morning so that the most experienced students can come in from eight to 11 o'clock in the hall. And then the newer old students, none of them are new students have had at least one course, the newer old students will come to the hall for the afternoon. So everyone gets a chance to be in the hall. We also have a pretty powerful energy recovery ventilation system that pretty much flushes the air out in a two hour gap between when one crew ends and the other crew starts.
Host 1:40:48
I see was that Tom? Was this a new innovation or was this from the original time at the center,
Dick Delanoy 1:40:55
this came along, partway through this, we were starting to think about UV lights and and have filters as a way of clearing the virus. And our public health service person said that, you know, the best way to do is just ventilated. That that's the best way of removing the virus. The reason we're doing a split shift is that the course even for experienced all students, it was pretty difficult. It's like sitting in one of our long courses. Because there's not much interaction, there's no socializing. And it's not, it's not that you're socializing. It's just that you see other people in the dining room, they're around you, they're making noise, you get up and walk around. And so that tends to break the cycle so that you don't stray off too far into the weeds, so to speak, that you don't go too deep, too fast. When we started with the old students, and we didn't let anyone in the hall, we resorted to doing more frequent interviews that we would invite almost everybody in for an interview every day, just to touch base with them to give them a little bit of extraversion. So they weren't so introverted. And now it's a split shift, we're doing better, the fewer students are complaining that it was really hard. A lot of them are clamoring, oh, we want to hear the tapes, we want to be in the hall. So this is a way of giving everyone a chance each day.
Host 1:42:13
Right? And are you allowing pure new students to come? Or is there a regulation in place that that someone has to have a minimum level of experience before attending the course these days,
Dick Delanoy 1:42:23
each course we're doing, we're trying to get closer to normal, and still have a set of protocols that we believe is safe. So eventually, I mean, the next step, we've already taken students that have only had one course, we're ready, within a couple months, we're going to start taking new students again, it will maybe just a few, like three or four is all but we're gonna start and then see how we can continue to expand the numbers. Part of the limitation also that we have is that we wanted to have everyone have a private room with that was well ventilated. All right. And so that is limited us right now to 11 men and 11 women. We have another building that was built, but it has central air, the ones that I just talked about have individually see the central air when we're a little hesitant about using it because everyone be sharing the same airspace. So we may have to bring in, you know, either portable heaters or window air conditioners in order to make that work that building work for the duration. Right? So
Host 1:43:29
it's a number of things to have to think through pertaining to the physical center that haven't really been on the radar before.
Dick Delanoy 1:43:34
Yeah, this is all we're making this up as we go. This is Yeah, yeah, aren't we all? We're concerned about the emotional welfare and mental welfare of our students. Now we're having to balance that against this, this physical health problem. And the trade offs are difficult. We try not to have any trade offs at all the main trade off is we just can't bring as many students here. Right.
Host 1:43:58
Right. And what have you noticed about student interest in taking courses? Is that stayed consistent? Or is it gone up or down during this period?
Dick Delanoy 1:44:06
We always have a waiting list, even in the normal time. So we've not had any problem at all and getting having students come we initially set out a list of for the first course we did, it was invited only so we went through our roster of students in the southeast to it had long course experience and invited them and we get a couple of courses like that. But then we saw that those numbers were tailing off. So we we relaxed that a little bit and started taking students who had eight courses and then five and then three, and now we're down to one or two. Hmm, right.
Host 1:44:38
So you've been, as you mentioned, working your way back from from being locked down completely to a tentative opening and then working your way back to some sense of normality. Obviously, you things won't be entirely normal until there's a vaccine but moving towards a greater degree of safety and being able to open your doors to a higher number of people who want to be able to participate. Right. That's right.
Dick Delanoy 1:45:02
The only other thing that was significant about this, the shutdown that we did was that we had always had problems with dining. It was ridiculously tight. It was one of the first buildings we built. And we were on a tight budget. And as our numbers grew, the dining room became ridiculous. We tried building additional dining annexes, but that was, you know, not a lot of gain for the, for what we're putting into them. What we really wanted to do was to build a large extension to the kitchen building so that the old dining room was would become the serving room, and then we'd have a big dining space. Sure, but we couldn't do it. Because courses were going all the time. Now, of course it stopped, we actually built it. Unfortunately, we can't use it.
Host 1:45:45
Or you you say you built this during the was it during the lockdown that you did this?
Dick Delanoy 1:45:50
Yeah, we had contractors come in, and we would keep them isolated outside, we would tape up the doors that for the room that would might possibly exchange here with the dining with the kitchen, I'm sorry. So it's just that, you know, having this opportunity and figuring out a way to keep the contractors away from us. And the numbers in Georgia, we're not that high, a lot of time to work was going on in our county in 30,000, people there was only about 1520 cases, that has grown now to around 1500 cases, which is for a county with 30,000 people in it about 5% of the population is had the disease now.
Host 1:46:31
Right. That's it's funny hearing you say that because during the pandemic, obviously it offered different people are affected in different ways. It offers a way to look at one's life patterns and, and do different things. And often in the world, people have talked about how with the pandemic it had them get back into themselves. Some people took up a meditation practice at home, some just even if they weren't meditating, per se, they became a bit more internal and quiet and in their own world and in their own space. And then we check in with a meditation center. And it's kind of the opposite thing going on during the lockdown, at least that the meditation center. by necessity, people stop meditating as much. And then something very worldly, like construction is able to take place and activity that normally doesn't happen because everyone's meditating is able to go ahead. So it's kind of this reversal between the worldly and spiritual dynamic. So it's kind of interesting,
Dick Delanoy 1:47:23
kind of, I mean, I still consider us in a very strange state right now, the lockdown is still pretty severe that construction happened when we weren't running courses. So we were only worried about our servers. And during the few times that the contractors actually had to go into the kitchen, we would actually vacate the building. And we would go over to our community next door and have meals over there for a few days. Mm
Host 1:47:50
hmm. Right. So you mentioned about the demand, for course, has been somewhat consistent with how it's been before, although there's there's different regulations in place, in terms of the students who do come and how you're working with them. You've obviously as a teacher, you've been in a capacity of working with students learning meditation, and the emotional and psychological etc. effect and process that they go through. During this time, have you noticed any difference in terms of what's coming up for students? Or how they're working with it? Or how it's affecting the meditation process? Or has it been relatively the same.
Dick Delanoy 1:48:27
And for the most part, I think it's been relatively the same. The kind of issues that come up for students serve are still the same old kinds of things, trying to help the student get out of their own way. They, they want so much to do this, right. And they wind up being in their head too much. And it's hard to help students learn how to relax and just let it happen. That's, that's always been the issue. The only thing that I really see is that the students are putting up with a lot more inconveniences than they were before that they're so grateful to be able to sit Of course at all, that they'll put up with a lot such as doing their own meals or having to wear a mask in the Dhamma Hall, which is the meditation hall in the mosque gets hot and humid and becomes a distraction.
Host 1:49:18
Right. So even when the Dhamma I didn't get that. So even when the Dhamma Hall is open and you have a very limited number of students for say a one hour group sitting all the students and teachers I guess the server's aren't there. Everyone's wearing a mask during that hour. That's right. That's right. Okay. Okay.
Dick Delanoy 1:49:34
We had calculated that the odds of somebody coming to the center with a those presymptomatic but contagious was around one student a year. And the consequences of that could be serious that one course especially if a server got sick that we would shut the course down at that point, we couldn't continue. So we when we were assumed That everything in every course somebody is going to come with that skill and doesn't know and then we'll be ready for that. In fact, on this course right now, we just discovered woman on the course she had visited with friends on their porch, wasn't sure whether we're wearing masks, there were about four to six feet apart. And we got an email from the friends saying her boyfriend that was there has been tested positive. And so we moved the student out to another building that I mentioned earlier that that we're not using because it has central air, but she's the only one out there. So it doesn't matter whether she's sick or not. So she's gone into seclusion, if she gets, if she so symptoms, will send her home right away so she can get to someplace safe. By the time that on the chance that she becomes seriously ill.
Host 1:50:51
I see. Right. So you have to make judgments in the moment of responding to things coming up during this time.
Dick Delanoy 1:50:57
Yeah. So in hindsight, our action to have a mask on in the Dhamma Hall makes a lot of sense, right? We've already been running up against, oh, could this be?
Host 1:51:13
Sure. On a personal level, you know, obviously, the teachings of the Buddha, the practice of meditation, this, these weren't meant for times of stability, or prosperity that the normal that most of us are used to living in, at least in western countries, or developed countries, and they might take for granted, but also just as relevant during these times of difficulty and strife. And I'm wondering, in your own personal practice, if any insights about the relevancy and the importance of these teachings have has come through your meditation practice in a new way, or a different way than prior to the pandemic without these conditions being present.
Dick Delanoy 1:51:55
I think that the only personal thing that was different is that I guess it dovetails with this is that a group of us started doing, you know, more study of the Buddhist teachings, reading the suitors. And, you know, having more insight into what the Buddha was talking about being able to, to read it has helped my practice in ways I'm not sure I understand. But But things are different. Oh, uh huh. I think that the other factor is that I'm less distracted by the outside world, I still read the news, but I don't go to town to coffee shops, or hang out at the hardware store anymore. There's nobody to visit. So, right. So, you know, we everyone servers, and Eric and I included that we were I think we're tending to become more more introverted and more relying on the smaller community of Dhamma workers.
Host 1:52:58
Mm hmm. Right. And so this decision to join the study group that was predicated on the pandemic occurring at the time, that was some way like a motivator to join that.
Dick Delanoy 1:53:09
I think it was, it may have for some of them, I think it was more coincidental that we had talked about it and and started it. But whether or not that was because of the virus? I'm not sure. It certainly wasn't my intention. Because of that, I think we just found ourselves with more time.
Host 1:53:30
Oh, sure. Right. Yeah. And as this pandemic is currently raging, and definitely the teachings of the Buddha and meditation practice, have a certain relevancy and accepting what is and in seeing the value of a balanced mind. Have you or other teachers in the tradition brought these teachings through writing or through a discourse to meet the demands of the moment, I guess, is the question I'm looking for like to take this fundamental practice this timeless practice that people have practiced, obviously, before the pandemic, and many centuries before us. But during this difficult time that we're in to show the relevancy of the current times and the current situation of going back into this practice and how this practice can help us at a time like this.
Dick Delanoy 1:54:23
Yeah, we have an elder scholar Paul fleischman, who who's written a lot and he had put together a talk a while back a few years ago, he had he had to talk about how to prevent the Dhamma from hurting you that the the people resort oftentimes to the Buddhist teachings, not for the sake of liberation but for reasons of escape, for instance, that that they're, they're trying to escape some difficulty in the world and so they see this as an opportunity and the Coronavirus just adds piles on the stress to people and there's even more inclination to withdraw. Some people might start meditating four or five, six hours a day and maybe go too deep too far again, as I was alluding to before. So one other thing that that happened was that the center in Massachusetts developed periodic zoom sessions in which we would do group sets for anyone around the country who wanted to dial in. And there was often a, usually a question and answer session following in maybe a discourse, you know, some kind of recording from going to G or or some other teacher some other things like the domino brothers, the that that movie and there was other movies that were made about the Dhamma being taught in India, those kinds of things were aired on a twice weekly basis, group sets were twice a day, still going on, as far as I know. Right? So we started resorting to high tech as a way of compensating for the lack of courses.
Host 1:56:00
Right? And what was the reception to that?
Dick Delanoy 1:56:02
Very positive, especially at first, it was almost always, we set aside 500 slots on zoom, and we were filled pretty much all the time. There are one day courses, we're also having, by the way that have been well received
Host 1:56:19
on zoom with one of their courses.
Dick Delanoy 1:56:21
Yeah, one day courses on zoom, right, that lasted like four to six hours on a, on a Saturday, the number of students lately seem to be drifting down to 250 or so. But our students, our servers had been tapped into that it was usually eight or nine. Towards the end, we had about seven or eight, nine students who could tap into it, and listen in. So you know, if that happens everywhere that 500 cases, 500 slides may actually be accommodating one or 2000 students. Right.
Host 1:56:56
Right. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, and one of the things about this pandemic that's raging is that it is changing society and human action in ways that we might not even understand for many years from now. And the same can be said, for companies, businesses, offices, as well as religions and spiritual organizations. So I'm curious, as this process is going on, in the case of some businesses and organizations, it's having some of them innovate, and look how to bring their services or products or work in a way they never thought before, because there's so many regulations in place. But I've heard several stories about once some of these innovations started just because of the pandemic, people have stepped back and thought we'll actually this is a pretty good idea. We never realized, you know, that we could do it this way, or that we could work in that way. So I'm curious about a spiritual organization, one that's primarily centered around the teaching of meditation, have there been shifts that you had to do in the way these teachings were disseminated or certain protocols at the center certain outreach to the students, that you've had to innovate by force of the circumstances, that you might take a step back? And when this is all over, say, you know, that was actually a pretty good idea. We can, even in normal times, this is something good to think about and continue doing.
Dick Delanoy 1:58:21
You know, I can't think of anything offhand. I mean, the goal that we've said is to try to bring it back to normal again, try to get back to the original schedule and pacing, then going he had established and that we've been operating for a long time. It's it's we have this community of teachers who don't know anything else. But that. I mean, we could, I mean, some of the things we played with is using more video conferencing, maybe that would work. I think everything will depend on how the vaccinations go. If we can vaccinate quickly, if there's enough medical supplies to give the vaccinations like syringes and needles. If the vaccine lasts, has has good durability gives us you know, good resistance to the illness for four years, we won't have to worry about it, we just go back to normal again, the pandemic will fade, if we find ourselves in a situation where the vaccine only works for three months, and you have to start all over again. Or there's recurrent waves with different mutations that the vaccine doesn't cover. And I can think of a lot of scenarios, kind of depressing scenarios that could cause us to have to stay in this mode. And that will just keep trying to increase the numbers under the circumstances. You know, the possibility of contagion the possibility we have to shut a course and see if we can minimize the risk for everybody and still be able to function. Right?
Host 1:59:53
Yeah, understood. These are definitely uncertain times that we're all living in. And I really thank you for the time that you're here. Given today, I know that you're speaking to us in the middle, of course right now, what day are you on?
Dick Delanoy 2:00:05
This is day five out of 10. Okay,
Host 2:00:07
okay. Well, thanks so much for making time for this. And was there anything else you wanted to add?
Dick Delanoy 2:00:13
There's one thing. One other way in which we've changed our procedures is that we are now taking a lot more care and accepting students beforehand. So we are asking students before they come to quarantine, if possible, and to fill out a profile to say, all right, what kind of work do you do? Do you work where there's a lot of people? Do you wear masks, or you have family members who have who have been sick recently, all these things go into now into the procedures for accepting students. We have a waiting list all the time, but instead of doing it first come first serve will often scan that list for all right, which are the least risk people, the people who have had the most experience and the people who have had the least exposure to the disease?
Host 2:01:06
Right, right. So changing the way that students are accepted and the the application process out of necessity as well.
2:01:13
Yeah. Right,
Host 2:01:15
right. Well, thank you so much for being on and sharing these thoughts. I know that it's been hard for many people to get information about how things are changing and those that are serious meditators and unable to go to centers for a variety of reasons right now to be able to check in and just learn how the senators are trying to get back to normal and what these protocols are, I think is of interest in value for knowing how meditation instruction is continuing to be taught and practiced in this country and everywhere else. So thank you very much.
Dick Delanoy 2:01:49
My pleasure.
Host 2:01:54
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