Transcript: Episode #25, Voices: Burmese Theravada in a Catholic Land, Part 1

Following is the full transcript for the interview about Filipino meditators in Myanmar, which appeared on November 28, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Host  00:00

The year was 2003. And I had just finished the hardest meditation course of my life at dama Jyoti, the Compassionate center in downtown Yangon. This was my first visit to Burma. A Japanese friend sitting the course with me and found out that the otha g, a teacher in that lineage had taught at a meditation center across Yangon river over a century ago. And after the course, we set out to find it. I'll never forget the feeling of discovery that day, as well as the immensity of how much history and faith were surrounding me every turn. Somehow, I landed back in Myanmar A few years after that fateful trip, and have been continuing that journey of discovery ever since. This podcast platform is the latest outgrowth of that path, sharing what I find with other like minded souls. I hope that you find the show that follows nearly as inspiring as we did while making it.

Tony  01:14

Hi.

Host  01:46

If you reference the Philippines, at least for non Filipinos, it might spread typical connotations like jeepneys, adobo, hollow, hollow, pristine beaches and love of basketball. Or perhaps for those more historically inclined the weight of the Spanish and American occupations. General MacArthur promising he shall return the Marcos regime, or more recently do their take. One thing that may well not come readily to mind is the passionate meditation or Buddhist practice of any kind for that matter. Interestingly, this heavily Catholic island nation seems to be the only region in all of Southeast Asia has had hardly any touches with the dominance over the course of the last 2500 years plus. So why would a podcast based on Buddhist practice? with a specific focus on Myanmar dedicate a series of episodes to the Philippines visa v the golden land? The answer is largely embedded in the very wording of the question. It's to explore the single country in the region that while having no past historical influence with Buddhism, or the related monkhood is now appearing so open and receptive to the teachings of the Buddha. I'd like to share my own personal experiences with the country. I found the Filipino people to be some of the most welcoming and friendliest that I've ever met anywhere in the world. I've visited there a handful of times, partly as a tourist to relax on its famous beaches and tour some of the world war two sites, and partly as a meditator to join and serve its growing Dhamma community. I was part of the very first the passionate course and the Glinka tradition held in Cebu posted at a Catholic nunnery if my memory serves me right. And I stayed on at the venue temporary going to center in Kavita outside of Manila. I've long harbored a dream of organizing a pilgrimage that could inspire serious Filipino Yogi's to experience the treasures of Myanmar, which hopefully this podcast will address. So let's get right into the guests we have coming up in this very interesting episode. The first is Tony Fernando, the brother of a business associate based in Yangon, Tony yearned to be a monk and dedicate himself to the practice of loving kindness meditation, and his brother asked if I might be able to provide guidance. Tony eventually fulfilled his dream by ordaining several times at champion being monastery. And one year actually, we shared noble silence on a course together in his professional life, in addition to being a cellist. Tony is also a psychiatrist at the University of Auckland, and is today one of the leading sleep researchers in the world. He's now completing his PhD by bringing these two worlds together in trying to introduce compassion into the field of sleep study, and he has also begun a mindfulness training program at the mount Eden Correctional Facility. The second guest is Amy Contreras, who has dedicated herself to bringing Dhamma to her native country in fundamental ways. She is founder of mindfulness Asia, the co founder of the Philippine insight meditation community has brought mindfulness programs to incarcerated women and sexually abused women and children. Additionally, she has also taught in the US at spirit rock and UCLA. I'm really excited about the show. We've put the These two guests bring diverse and powerful stories to the contemporary spread of Dharma into new areas of our world. Our speakers are a living testament to the fact that while the Buddhist teachings may have had little impact on this island nation up till now, that is certainly no longer the case.

Zach  05:23

Hey, Tony, welcome to Insight Myanmar.

Tony  05:27

Thank you. Thank you for welcoming me, Zack. Yeah, it's

Zach  05:30

nice to have you here. You're there in New Zealand. Is that right?

Tony  05:33

Yes, I'm in Auckland, the biggest city in New Zealand. Right? about one and a half million people. Yeah.

Zach  05:42

And what do you what are you doing there? If you don't mind me asking?

Tony  05:46

I'm doing a sin work or doing at the moment? No, I'm, I'm a psychiatrist. And a sleep specialist. So I work mainly with patients who have sleep issues. And for about 20 years, have been part of the medical faculty here. And recently, just simplifying my life and focusing mainly on clinical work so that I can do more volunteer work in prison, where I will, where I teach meditation and managing emotions to inmates.

Zach  06:26

Oh, wow. And how long have you been there in New Zealand?

Tony  06:30

Since 98, so 20 to 22 years.

Zach  06:36

Right, right.

Tony  06:36

Yeah. And

Zach  06:37

you're originally from the Philippines? Correct?

Tony  06:41

Yeah. So I'm from I'm from the Philippines. That's where I did my most of my education and then moved to the US to do my internship and residency training in psychiatry, and then got recruited by Auckland Hospital in 98. So I moved to New Zealand in 98. It's my first proper job as a doctor.

Zach  07:09

Right, right. Right. Well, it's interesting. I understand that you are you practice, and studied Dhamma, quite extensively. And I find that interesting, because, you know, Philippines, of all the other Asian countries is the one it was never touched by Buddhism. So I'm wondering just what that was like. So I'm interested in like, perhaps you could tell like, did you grow up in the Philippines? And then what was it like? What kind of family did you grow up in? What was the like the religious?

Tony  07:38

Yeah, so that's a whole chapter in my life. I come from a very Catholic family. So I went to Catholic school. My family, their regular churchgoers were active in church. And then I went to a Benedictine school, school for boys. And at one point, I actually was a junior monk, as a Benedictine in in Manila for about six months, all right, and then decided to leave and join the med medical school. So growing up was quite Catholic. And Buddhism was actually way after my way, after my medical school training, it's when I became interested in it, actually, when I was already a practicing psychiatrist. But for the first part, you know, probably first 2530 years of my life. I didn't care anything about Buddhism at all. For me, it was this weird, exotic religion, practiced by some of the Filipino Chinese Buddhists where they do a lot of chanting and all sorts of rituals. So I've always thought of him as this interesting, exotic, but never really interested me, for the first part of my life.

Zach  09:06

So when you're young, there's quite a strong influence of Catholicism. What was your actual relationship to it? Did you take to it believe in it? Or was it just something you did because of your family? Or like, what was your relationship with Catholicism?

Tony  09:17

I was actually an extremist. So I wasn't a casual Catholic. I don't do things casual. Right. I really believed in it. I really believed in it. Like, I think I would have one of the strongest faiths in my family, to the point that I think three times in my younger years, I've seriously thought of becoming a priest and a missionary.

Zach  09:46

Right. Hmm.

Tony  09:49

And I was also involved with an organization called Opus Dei. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that group. It's very conservative. Didn't

Zach  09:57

Dan Brown make that popular?

Tony  10:03

Yes, but this depiction is not very accurate. Right? Okay. But it's a very conservative section of the Catholic Church. And I was going to a center of Opus Dei, and that also shaped my thinking of Catholicism, bringing it to a more of an extreme, quite orthodox, right view of the faith. To the point that I think when I was in medical school, and I was quite active in Opus Dei, I was called the cooperator. So that's my official title. In terms of my relationship with Opus Dei, I was so very much into the belief system, that if the pope at the time called for a holy war, I will volunteer, right? Okay, that's how I was willing to die for it. You're all in very much in. And that time, my belief was, anyone who's not Catholic, and anyone who's not receiving the sacraments regularly, they will go to hell. And I believe that really believed in that.

Zach  11:22

And that carried out throughout your studies as well. in medical school. It sounds like Yep, so

Tony  11:27

yeah. Throughout, no, definitely throughout medical school. And things changed when I left the Philippines. I lived in New York. So quite a bit. from Manila to New York. Yes. And for the first time, I have incredibly good friends who are not Catholic. Okay. So that shook me a bit. That shook me a bit. I have Jewish friends. I have Muslim friends, atheist friends, Protestant friends, and I started asking this are good people, right? If there's such a place as heaven, they might even go ahead. There's a lot of my Catholic. But that started, that started me questioning, right, some of the things I believe then because these are incredible people who are moral and kind, right, because my belief was in anyone who's not Catholic, or, or practicing Catholic, you know, they're, they're monsters or you know, they're going to hell, they're bad people. Right. Right. So that started my so that unshackled me a little bit from my faith. And I started asking questions about Catholicism and Christianity in the Bible. So I drifted gradually towards becoming agnostic, or atheist, or being an atheist, right was

Zach  12:56

Which one? Yeah, which one? Was it? Because there those are different, right? One is like, Well, I'm not sure anymore. I don't really know. And the other ones like, I really don't believe in God or theology,

Tony  13:07

I probably, probably more than right, and it fluctuates. Everything's impermanent. Most of the time, at that time, it was more agnostic. Right. But later on, you know, at this point in my life, you know, if there's something I'm not sure if I'm I consider myself agnostic, I think I'm more of an atheist right now. But even saying that, interestingly, even saying that gives you the creeps. Because I'm conditioned to think that to be an atheist means going to hell,

Zach  13:44

right. So there's still a little bit of that residue in there of

Tony  13:48

hooks, especially, especially if I'm talking about it publicly. If on my own, or, you know, I'm talking to you online, but and this will be broadcast. But, you know, if I'm talking to intimate friends, it will say, yeah, I'm an atheist, and there will be less of the guilty feeling, but, you know, broadcasting it in public, and I still have lots of friends who are strong Christians, right? Or people with a faith who would probably cringe when they hear that I'm an atheist. Right.

Zach  14:28

And as you said, that you almost sounded a bit. Were you actually surprised at that time in your life to to have that faith kind of challenged a bit by experience? Did you kind of catch you by surprise somehow, or is it pretty smooth? No, no, it was.

Tony  14:46

It was very gradual, right. So nothing, nothing earth shattering that suddenly Oh, wow, I have this insight. God doesn't exist, nothing like that. It was gradual, gradual. And I'm comfortable about what I think about God the moment, you know, like, I don't think he exists. Sometimes I tell myself if he exists or she exists, or it exists, I hope it he or she will be kind enough to let me in heaven since I tried to live a good life, but I don't think you that's my current thought.

Zach  15:27

I mean, you're hoping God doesn't have

Tony  15:29

I still tried to have this loophole.

Zach  15:31

You're hoping God doesn't have such an ego that is that he'll he'll forgive you for not believing in Him. And that'll be okay. If you're a nice person.

Tony  15:39

Okay, that there's still that little? Yeah.

Zach  15:44

It sounds like it was quite a gradual fading for lack of a better term, instead of a sudden thing, as you said, Now, what were your first touches with the Dhamma? And how did that come about? And when, like, how, as things faded, was there a long period where you know, there was just more of a secular life? Yeah. How did that unfold? Or did you replace Catholicism with something new? or How did that happen?

Tony  16:07

I think there was a, a few years gap of not being interested in any organized religion at all. But I became interested in Buddhism initially, with mindfulness. So as a psychiatrist, I would see patients with different types of conditions. And there's one condition called borderline personality disorder, which is a very difficult condition to treat, right? medications, a lot of medications don't work, a lot of different psychological approaches don't work. However, at that time, mindfulness was starting to be used. And a lot a few of my patients improve, like, instead of regularly self harming or wanting to kill themselves, or having very dysregulated emotions, after doing some mindfulness courses are better. So I was curious about mindfulness, like if this works on my patients, I'm sure it will help me as well. So that's my first introduction to something Buddhist related. So I did some mindfulness courses. Can I?

Zach  17:25

Can I ask you who's directing them at this time towards the mindfulness? If it was new to you, it? It doesn't sound like it was you yet? And but then you got to see the results of it. Is that how it unfolded?

Tony  17:36

Yes, so some of the psychologists have trained in secular mindfulness, so it's not really bought this month. It's basically mindfulness thought in a very secular manner. So my patients are getting psychotherapy from this psychologists, and they learn basic mindfulness approaches, okay? Being accepting of their emotions, recognizing them, instead of shutting them away, or wanting them to, or pushing them away. And then a lot of soothing techniques. So it's not exactly similar to mindfulness as we learn in Buddhist centers, or monasteries. But it's similar, right? So when I, when I saw that my patients were improving, I said, Oh, I want

Zach  18:26

to learn a little bit of that, too. Did you talk with the psychologists and all that we're practicing it? Do you work closely enough with them that you had access to them? Or

Tony  18:33

no, no, I actually, I wanted to do it on my own. Okay, so I did some research. And I also wanted to learn it from a Buddhist center. And because I heard it was taught by Buddhists as well, or practicing Buddhism, so

Zach  18:47

can I ask, do you have Do you have some idea why you why you want it to be less secular? Any idea? What was the appeal of it being Buddhist rather than than just mindfulness? Do you have any any idea about that?

Tony  19:01

I'm not sure exactly. But probably because I want to get it from the source. Okay, I can do? Yeah. I tend to be, I will say, I tend to be a little snobbish when it comes to intellectual pursuits. Right? If someone's teaching something. Yep. Okay. I can learn it from that guy. But if I can learn it from the best person available.

Zach  19:30

Okay, that's what I'll do. Right. So that's what was a bad okay. Yeah. So what what steps did you take you said, You said you're at a Zen center.

Tony  19:38

So I learned it initially. Well, I actually didn't learn it from a Zen center. I went to a Zen center. And there were no instructions. And I was just asked to sit in front of a white wall. And I persevered for a few sessions, but it was it liquid me so I went to a, what they call a Western Buddhist order. It used to be called Western Buddhist order, but it's now called triratna. Okay, right. It's a secular leap. It's a lay, Buddhist organization. I've heard of it. And that's where I learned mindfulness properly. So they had a really nice six week course, on mindfulness of the breath, mindfulness of the body, and metta Bhavana. So I learned it from them,

Zach  20:29

some actual instructions, right.

Tony  20:31

Very, very good instructions, in fact, as

Zach  20:34

opposed to nothing, just sitting in front of a white wall. Some people, I guess some people might get it that way. But

Tony  20:40

yeah, not me. Like, I'm very impatient. And around that time, I think it was around that time that I was in, in an airport in Sydney. And I chanced upon a book by the Dalai Lama, called the art of happiness, I think, the art of happiness.

Zach  21:02

Yes. famous book. I've read it too.

Tony  21:06

And the only reason I think I picked up that book was because the book was co authored by a psychiatrist. Okay, if it was mainly the Dalai Lama talking, or written by someone else, I wouldn't have picked it up. But because it's a psychiatrist, I got intrigued.

Zach  21:25

Some kind of connection there.

Tony  21:27

Yeah, he followed the Dalai Lama for I think, a few years, and interviewed him about anxiety about stress. And I had this lightbulb moment of, I can't believe this, this Buddhist teacher has an incredible understanding of what suffering and anxiety and stress is, right? In a totally different paradigm, from what I've learned in psychology and psychiatry, right. So I actually cannot put down that book. So when I came back to New Zealand, I said, I want to learn more about this. And eventually went to conferences in Australia, organized by Tibetan Buddhists call it so it's actually an international conference called happiness and its causes. And the Dalai Lama is a regular speaker there. So that's where I got to know more about different traditions. I got to become friends with Tibetan Buddhists. And then, you know, visited Tibetan monastery. So it's another story. But it reminded me so much of Catholicism

Zach  22:50

didn't click with me. Right, right. Those are the initial contact, there's been that comparison, actually.

Tony  22:56

And I can see it, I can see it, in fact, in a weird way, too weird way. But when I stayed in a Buddhist in a Tibetan monastery in Kathmandu, and I really loved the chanting and the music, the singing. However, they had this particular ritual using instance. And the instance container, which is like a medieval piece of instrument, right? It's exactly the same as what we use in Catholic churches. Uh huh. So we call it the three ball, the three ball is a place where you put the incense, and it's exactly the same. And that just intrigued me, like, where, what was the connection here? Between Tibetan Buddhism and Catholicism? There's that intersection, at least with the incense container. But anyway, Tibetan Buddhism reminds me so much of

Zach  23:56

right, when was that a good thing? Or not to connect with that? Or was that by this time? Did you have more something like you knew you wanted to go a different direction?

Tony  24:04

Yeah. So for me, there are all sorts of similarities. So one would be there are lots and lots of rituals. They also have day these, which for me, is very confusing, which is very similar to Catholicism in that we have different saints. Right, right. Different patrons. And that, you know, you don't have to go direct to Jesus, you can if you want to, but you can also go, you might go faster if you go through Mary, because Mary is the mother of God, you know, that's quicker sometimes to Jesus. But I have this similar feeling. It's not a bad feeling. But I actually just wanted something simpler, right, simpler and easy to understand that will connect with. I'm a relatively simple thinker. I don't want complexity when it comes to living my life. So Tibetan Buddhism For me is exotic, interesting, beautiful. I owe a lot to the Dalai Lama. But it's just not connecting with me. And the connection I made with it with Theravada. Buddhism is very different. It was instantaneous connection. When I first when I first met Theravada and molk for the first time, so he's our teacher here in Auckland.

Zach  25:26

Okay, so and that's where it happened. Right. So, is there a story there? Yeah. Yeah. So

Tony  25:32

what happened was, since I'm in the Faculty of Medicine in Auckland, and a lot of medical students become good friends of mine, a couple of young medical students, they were Sri Lankan New Zealanders approached me and said, you know, Tony, we we need a faculty member to sign off for a room that they want to use. So they want to hold a session on managing stress and anxiety. And of course, they'll approach me because I'm one of the psychiatrists, right. I said, Yeah, this is great. But it will be run by a Buddhist monk. Uh, huh.

Zach  26:16

What do you think of that?

Tony  26:18

said, that's kind of weird. Because I was thinking, you know, a stress and anxiety that's a domain of psychiatrists and psychologists. But right. Alright, let's see. Let's see this Buddhist monks.

Zach  26:30

Sounds like you had some kind of, perhaps there was an opening already after having read the Dalai Lama to give it a chance. Yeah, right.

Tony  26:37

Yeah. That's interesting. I should be very open to it. But actually, I was a little cynical. Uh huh. Right. Okay. Let's see how good this monks. I guess I haven't met theravadan walks before. Okay. And I was thinking, yeah, I know, the Buddhists know a lot about the mind. But I'm not sure if they really know a lot about anxiety and stress. That's my domain as well. Right. So they organized this meeting and I, I walked into the hall. And before I saw the two Buddhist monks, I had this unusual. There's this wave of peace. It's hard to describe it in words, but I was, I was like, washed by this. But it's like, water. I had to say it, but I was like, bathing in peace. Like, it was a feeling of a palpable feeling of, Wow, what's that? And then when I walked into the hall, then I saw these two monks sitting on the floor. They're just meditating before the session started, right? I was thinking, Oh, my, this is weird. And then when the senior monk was talking, Arjun Chandra CO, is a Thai forest tradition. Moke. Gosh, everything he said, just made sense to me about what stress is and what anxiety is and how we can manage. That's how I initially made connection with Thai forest monks. And after that session, we started to organize weekly meditation sessions in the medical school. So the monk will come every week, and then we would have students coming in. And it wasn't a huge affair. But interestingly, it This actually a nice twist. A couple of months ago, I visited the monastery, the Thai forest monastery, right? And there's this anagarika you know, a young monk, well, assumed to be anagarika, right? 27 years old. He said, Tony, don't you want to remember this? But it was wonderful. One of the meditation sessions he organized, where I got to learn about Buddhism. Oh, wow. And he's an anagarika. Uh huh. And I was almost in tears. Because we just don't know what the effects of the things we do. Right. Right. So it's just one of those nice little moments recently. So I'm still quite involved with with the Thai forest tradition here in here in Auckland.

Zach  29:25

Right. And so it sounds like it wasn't just one thing, or it was both this tactile experience of this wave of peace. And also like as they spoke, it just, it just made so much sense to you. So at a cognitive level and at a felt sense. It sounded like it was a real resonance with with the Dhamma. Yeah,

Tony  29:46

it was, it's hard to explain that one. In fact that that felt sense. The other time I had that felts and was two or three times when I met the Dalai Lama. Not Very close, but even, but even from a distance, but that might also be a placebo effect, you know, because the Dalai Lama is famous and all the projections that I have about him on him. And when he just comes on to the stage, right? I also had this foom feeling of peace, right? But, but these two monks are not Dalai Lama monks. They're not the Dalai Lama. They're just regular monks. But they had the same effect, which doesn't happen with all the monks I meet, right? It's not an effect of their own mess. Right, right.

Zach  30:37

I had the same experience with the Dalai Lama. When I met the Dalai Lama, he was just a camera, what it's called, it's called an audience. But there's different kinds of audience was just like 1000s of people, and you just kind of go through and shake his hand or bow down or whatever you want to do. And so yeah, I bow down and shook his hand and walked away. And I was kind of had this blissed out feeling for about 20 minutes, my friend was trying to talk to me and he, but halfway through what he was trying to say, is like you, you can't hear what I'm saying. And I just kind of had this kind of spacey look on my face with a big smile. And I just shook my hands. And I could not follow what he was saying, I didn't really care either. But yeah,

31:19

I know, Jimmy,

Zach  31:20

I'm laughing. Also, just because I do think, you know, a lot of our, I would imagine a lot of our listeners have had some kind of experience like that either arriving somewhere with their own practice, or encountering someone that seems to resonate a strong piece of practice themselves.

Tony  31:38

It's hard to explain. And as a psychiatrist, I tried to analyze it, you know, is it placebo? Or? Or is it this real spiritual thing? I don't know. Very hard to separate,

Zach  31:51

right, no matter what it actually is, it does seem to serve as an encouragement or inducing some kind of enthusiasm for more. So was there more what came after? Obviously, there was more because you're still practicing. So yeah, yeah. I've heard that you pursued things. So like, so yeah. Maybe you could talk about like, What? Where you went from there as far as your pursuit.

Tony  32:18

So for me in terms of personal practice, initially, how would you say that because I just trying to reflect now. I read the book of the Dalai Lama in 2004. So I remember that, right. And it was in 2004, when I also attended my first meditation course with the Buddhist Center, the western Buddhist order. Okay. But probably for the, for many years, my meditation practice was very irregular, a few times here and there, occasionally attending one day retreat here and there. So, right. The practice was very irregular. However, intellectually, I fully, coincide fully, because there is still bits of Buddhist doctrine that I'm not still fully in it. But right. But the core teachings really resonate with me even from the beginning. But my practice solidified when I say solidified, became more regular, as in daily meditation practice, formally and informally, right, I would say only the last five or six years where it's just regular. And one of the things that made it very regular, was after I ordained temporarily as a monk in Myanmar, I did it twice. I think 2017 and 2018, I think and I did one was two weeks in outside young one and the other two weeks was in Kabbalah. Right. And that's when, you know, after becoming a monk, even briefly, I realized, Hey, I can meditate for hours and it doesn't have to be that painful. Like I enjoyed it. And since then, it's regular. Because if I can do you know six, eight hours of meditation, I'm sure I can do 30 minutes at least every day if not more now, so that's how it solidified I think becoming a monk temporarily Yeah.

Zach  34:32

Let's go into this a little bit. Tony, how'd you get from there's a bit a bit missing here like he go from like experiencing this this Tera vaada and monks to like, making what most people consider a pretty big decision to like, go ordain even if it's temporarily like, Where did you Where did you do that? Yeah, that was in Myanmar. Right. And then yes, how did that even come on the radar that you could do that? Like Where did you hear about that? That's a possibility. And then what what was so appealing About that, that you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that. Yes.

Tony  35:04

I actually cannot remember who told me to someone told me that in Thailand and Myanmar, that it's common for men to ordain briefly. Right. And then I don't know who told that I actually don't remember. And that in Myanmar, it's common for men to do it. Every year, every couple of years. It just interested me. And because deep, deep inside, part of me wants to become a Buddhist monk, like a full fledged one. Oh, really? Yeah. even up to now. Uh huh. So there's something that attracts me to it. And then I got in touch with Joe, I think,

Zach  35:56

Okay.

Tony  35:58

I think he was the one who suggested that I contact this nun, a Chan may mean monastery, right? I think her name's Veera nanny. I think for a nanny Vernon. She's an American nun. And she was so helpful just made it so easy. And they said, Yep, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this, at least for at least for two weeks.

Zach  36:27

Right? So that's actually just down the road from where I ordained,

Tony  36:32

or really where did your name with Seattle engineer, it's

Zach  36:35

literally on the same road, you know, like, you get off the highway, and then Chennai, meaning is right there. And then if you go a little further than you end up, kind of where the road ends is. It's literally like a five minute walk away from where I ordained

Tony  36:49

really, yeah. Yeah, that was so special. In fact, during my two stents of brief ordinations, I actually cried at the end when I had to receive my mind, lay man's clothes again. Uh, huh. Just Just like, really. But then again, you know, I was only there for two weeks. So the honeymoon phase? Right. I know, it's not that easy to

Zach  37:23

term. But nonetheless, I think we spend two weeks doing things that don't have a very profound effect on us. It certainly wouldn't make us cry at the end. You know, that kind of way, being so tired. Nonetheless, honeymoon or not, it does seem like something really touched you there. Yeah. And then it sound like it shifted things you said that's when your practice really became stable. So yeah, they're very stable. That's a metta practice. Right. So

37:50

yeah. I would say that the training was hard. Because I'm used to mindfulness practice. And I do occasional metta, like, probably 15-30 minutes. I actually targeted that monastery, because I'm not sure if it's Host who told me or Viranani the nun told me that they do a lot of meta training there. And I forgot to mention, I'm also doing my PhD now, here in Auckland University, and my topic is compassion in medicine. So I'm very interested in the whole field of compassion, not just a certain emotional state, but also from a neuroscience perspective, also from a health perspective. So I was thinking, since I'm interested in this topic, this is my topic of research. I want to learn meta from a place that really teaches metta. So I want to go to a place where compassion is taught. That's why I chose Chan Myay Myaing, because of its compassion training. And I found it really hard doing metta training the whole day. It was hard, because it's very different from mindfulness. It was hard! But the teacher was saying, 'just  carry on, carry on. It gets easier after about a week.' But my first week was really hard. And after a week, it became easy, like it became less effortful. It was flowing, whereas the first week, it was very mechanical, you know, the different stages of of doing metta. But after one week, 'oh, yeah, he's right!' It's more fun. It's easier, but still quite a quite different experience from just doing mindfulness of the breath or the body. But one of the things I realized there was, that I can actually sit for a long time. Nothing like the monks there! They were sitting, like oh my gosh, like, some of them were not moving for a couple of hours! And then here I am, after about one hour, I'm already congratulating myself. It's like, the ego is there. 'Tony, you've done what? You can do a little bit of walking now.'

Zach  40:32

reward for sitting,

Tony  40:34

right? Yeah. And I calculated this, I was probably averaging six to eight hours, which is nothing compared to what the monks were doing there. But six to eight hours. For me, it's like, Whoa, wow. Before you know, you're getting restless after 30 minutes. So it gave me the confidence that I can do it. I can do this regularly. And it's not painful. All

Zach  40:58

right. I have a question for you, Tony. Yeah. What did your family and your like Filipino friends especially the you know, the ones from back home? What did they think of you? Not only like being interested in mindfulness, but specifically in Buddhism, and especially in taking robes. That's a very big move. How did the people around you respond?

Tony  41:19

Yeah. So I think those who did not agree, or not brave enough to tell me in my, in my face that they don't agree with it. Okay, but my family is quite a loving family, even though most of them are practicing Catholics at that time. Some of them are not anymore. Right? They were they were proud of me. They supported me. So they're very open minded, my my family and Okay, a lot of my friends in New Zealand, we're really excited, because they know that it's something I've always wanted to do. Yeah, actually, I don't remember encountering anyone negative or, or bitter. Probably because they were worried that you know, they're going to debate with me. I'm not a big debater. But you know, I'm, I'm a relatively likable person. So probably no one just wanted to annoy me or something. Yeah, never encountered resistance. Okay, a few. Interestingly, because I, sometimes I give lectures, and I'm giving talks on resilience, and managing the mind, I talk about mindfulness, I talk about enhancing compassion in a secular way. And then I'll actually show a picture of me as a monk, right. And then some people are like, stunned. And, and then a few people actually say, we'll ask me, Tony, I also wanted to do the same thing. So I give them contacts. Oh, really? Yeah. So interesting. The people come out of the woodwork and say, I'm so happy for you. You've done it. I've always wondered about doing it myself. And they'll talk to me. And I demystify it. Uh, huh. It's not something you know, it's nothing different from, of course, there's qualitative difference from other types of training systems, but I view it as a it's a training system. Right, right. Like it's different. Of course, people look exotic. They're wearing robes and right, but it's a training system. It's not faith based. Absolutely. So, so far, I haven't encountered anyone treating me badly or negatively because I became a mock. I think it also adds a little bit of credibility. When I talk about compassion training and mindfulness. I'm not just someone who learned it from a six week course. Right? I learned it from different types of teachers, and a lot of them I call them Jad eyes. The agencia mocks I call them generalize, right.

Zach  43:53

Yeah. And so when you came back to New Zealand, you got more involved with a Thai forest tradition. Is that right? Yeah. So

Tony  43:59

now in New Zealand, I've been involved on and off with the Thai forest tradition for about 10 or so years. We don't have a big presence of Burmese monks here. There's one temple here in Auckland not far from where I live. And I visited them a few times I felt really at home. I feel like I mean, it's like it looks the same as a temple in Myanmar, even the color Yeah, they like green. Right. I don't know what's the green walls, but they have greenhouses. And they have this big Buddha statues with with LED lights. Yeah, it's a very Burmese thing. Yes.

Zach  44:39

Yes. Yes.

Tony  44:40

The problem is a lot of the Burmese monks here. Their English isn't very good. Right. And they cater mainly to the local Burmese community. Right right. So the relationship is very superficial compared to the Thai forest monks who all speak English because of language barrier, right? I think The language is important, right? Yeah. But I've been in touch with the Thai forest monks, at least for 1015 years. But becames, the relationship was stronger after becoming a Buddhist monk in Myanmar.

Zach  45:16

Right. And so your, your practice became steady. And the benefits became, you know, must have must have come up more and more. And then, as I understand it, you actually started incorporating a lot of you've mentioned this before, a lot of the benefits, trying to make it a bit more secular, and then actually bring them into your work. So maybe you've talked a little bit about that. But perhaps you could say more about what you're doing on that front.

Tony  45:40

Yeah, so a lot of people I see have sleep difficulties. Many of them have problematic anxieties, depressions, many of them are really hard in themselves, like pathological levels of self hatred, and perfectionism. And then I talk about different interventions, there's traditional Western approaches, different types of psychotherapy. But they also talk about the importance of knowing how the mind works. And one of the best ways to do that is doing mindfulness practice. And I talk a lot about kindness, the self kindness to others. It's interesting in western psychology, the concept of being kind to others and showing compassion is rarely talked about. But from experience, it's, it's interesting. Yeah, interesting. But from experience, I remember I had this patient, very difficult to treat depression, so nothing's worked, like reduced all types of treatments, or types of medications, all types of psychotherapy, nothing's working. And then I asked her, you know, nothing seems to be working, but have you thought of doing volunteer work in the city mission for the homeless? Because I was thinking, stop thinking about how miserable Your life is. See if you can do some good to others. Right. And that was her best treatment, she changed, right? So I tend to talk about the importance of, of focusing on other people, other beings, because at least you're not that focused on your own problems, but you will benefit as well. So a lot of this is actually Buddhist inspired psychology. And I incorporate that a lot. In my clinical practice,

Zach  47:46

right? Like before there was someone else teaching it and you were just seeing the effects. Do you actually, do you just suggest to them that they engage in it somehow and give them resources? Or do you actually guide them in mindfulness? Or Yeah, what's how does that play out in treatment?

Tony  48:02

So most of the time, I would direct them to different resources. I also gauge how open they are to write, because some people will say, naptown, I'm not into that. Okay. You move on. But I would say 95% are open. And then I'll direct them to different types of resources, I'll tell them there are different ways to learn it. First, easiest at the moment, is to download apps. And I, you know, I mentioned a couple of popular apps. And I told them, but you can only learned so much from apps, right? And that they're incredible books, there are secular books, there are books written by Buddhist masters. And then there are YouTube guided meditations for by secular people and also Buddhist masters. And then there are secular courses, like six to eight week courses. But if you're interested, there are also those thought by Buddhist teachers, right? So I give them a range,

Zach  49:02

like a Dhamma. buffet.

Tony  49:04

Yeah, I pick, I let them decide and, and my attitude, the reason why I prefer that attitude versus just telling them this is the best way to do it is my looking at my own experience. I actually tried the different samples and found one which resonated with me the most, versus I think it would not have worked if I just stuck with one group and I like trying different places. So most of my patients agree that mindfulness works helps with insomnia or anxiety. A few really pursue it. And I have a few people who have gone to monasteries, right and have done the passion courses. that's a that's a small group. But majority would learn it from apps or books because they just want symptom relief. Right, you know, at the end, at the very least, you know, if you do a little bit of mindfulness practice here and there, you get, you feel a little better, which I had to tell them. But I want you to know that that's not how it was originally thought. I thought I'd tell them. Well, when mindfulness was, I have to put a disclaimer, I'm not an expert in Buddhism. But when mindfulness was taught by the Buddha, it was in the context of living an ethical life. Right, talk about the importance of kindness. And I talked about a little bit about the Four Noble Truth once in a while, right? It's not just mindfulness. Mindfulness is part of eight steps. And I talked about the Eightfold Path briefly. But some people don't want to hear that they just want to see mindfulness as symptom relief. However, with some you can sense. Well, there's more to this. Let's talk more about this stone. Right. So I have a few patients, not a lot. Who specifically wanted me to teach them? Especially, I remember, I have this patient who she said, you know, Tony, I've been to so many meditation teachers, different types of traditions. And they just say, I'm hopeless. Her mind is super busy. Oh, that nothing can be done. And then I, and then she said, Can you teach me? So we sat down, and I actually had her record? My guided meditation, which is where there was a lot of kindness. It's okay to be distracted. It's normal. Right? And then she said, she said, it's the first time I'm able to pay attention relatively consistently. All right. And I said, Well, it I think it's the approach the approach of a busy mind is a normal mind. Yeah, the goal, the goal is not to obliterate thought. Right? Thinking is good, right, right. But right now we're doing attention training. And everytime you get distracted, it's perfectly normal. You notice, and gently kindly go back to the breath. And I told her, that's one of the most important instructions, right? It's normal. If you have a busy mind, we know this. And you bring it back. Kindly, right? underlying cotton? Yes. It's perfectly normal to have a crazy mind. It's also

Zach  52:33

it's natural and normal to think. And I think we need to understand what role play that helps us versus the type of thinking that harms us and knowing knowing the difference, because, yeah, trying to kill it. We're just trying to understand what's thinking, and what are the conditions that arise to thinking that's harmful versus what's helpful?

Tony  52:52

Yeah. Yeah. So I talked about, for some who you can sense are receptive, right? I thought, how about a puncher right, for proliferation, and can be a cause of so much suffering? And they say, How can I manage it? How can I manage it? I think you need to be aware of your thinking. So we go back to you need to look at mindfulness training, and then I direct them to some talks. So Arjuna Morrow has a few talks on managing the crazy mind. Right. So I'll send them links to some of his podcasts. And so Arjuna Morrow is also a Thai forest. Teacher, he's an Abbot in amravati. In London, I think it's one of the best people when it comes to explaining ruminative in a busy mind because he has it himself. So I get normalising a lot of these things. Right.

Zach  53:49

He's an expert on

Tony  53:51

on rumination. He's up upon to expert

Zach  53:56

by experience, right. So I have a question for you. As far as I understand it, you're one of the most prominent sleep specialists in the world. And here you are incorporating mindfulness into your actual treatment. Is it? Is it taking root anywhere in the field of of psychiatry and sleep therapy or whatever? Yes, wherever your field is your other doctors becoming interested? It is actually,

Tony  54:26

in fact, medicine is quite open to the concept of mindfulness. And I think because of a few reasons. Jon Kabat Zinn, who started the research on mindfulness in chronic pain, right, and he started mbsr, which is Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, which is now a worldwide phenomenon, doing eight week. You know, it's an eight week session. So Jon Kabat Zinn, I think influenced the medical community to look into mindfulness seriously.

Zach  54:59

Is that because he did actual research like, like, so you can it's statistically show and clinically show there were real results. Yeah, right, right.

Tony  55:08

Yes. So he was the first I think and Western medicine to study mindfulness scientifically, right with good standards of research. So when you talk about that the doctors doctors can understand it. Right? Like, okay, right. So there's some basis, contextualize, right? Yeah. And then a lot of doctors suffer from burnout,

Zach  55:35

right?

Tony  55:37

50% of at least 50% of senior doctors in the US or in the Western world are burnt out. And we're always looking at ways to manage burnout in doctors. And there are a few research papers showing that doing mindfulness training,

Zach  55:55

good for the doctor,

Tony  55:56

helps with burnout, right? Yep. There are a few research areas which show that it's helpful in terms of resilience, particularly of doctors and health care practitioners. And then mindfulness is now used in different medical conditions. So if you go to chronic pain clinics, mindfulness is commonly part of the treatment. Okay? In anxiety clinics, mindfulness is thought and in sleep, mindfulness is now considered an important treatment for insomnia. Okay, so for people who have poor quality sleep, learning to accept you know that you have this condition, instead of ruminating on it, right, because you can have insomnia, for example, you have insomnia, poor quality sleep once in a while. It already causes suffering. It's already the first arrow of suffering, insomnia, and worrying about a lot of worrying about it. It's the second Yes, it worsens it. Right. So learning to notice that you're adding to your own suffering, has been shown to be helpful. Yes, the suffering lessens the insomnia. it lessens chronic pain. In fact, you know, with my patients, I talk about the two arrows. Oh, great.

Zach  57:19

From one of the suitors.

Tony  57:21

Yeah. And I tell them, you know, all of us, we don't have a choice of the first error all of us will encounter self suffering, dissatisfaction, illness, aging, traffic, annoying in loss, stomach aches, right? You don't have a choice, right? However, we can make it much worse, because of the mind. Right? And that's when I talk about the second era. And people get it. You know, I don't even have to say it's from the Buddha. But most of the time I insert the I insert the name, but I hope you don't mind. All right, just to give the credit. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not converting it to anything. In fact, people do not convert to Buddhism, but it's the Buddha who came up with this, right? And then they'll say, Wow, really? It makes it interesting for me because I, you know, I'm not a monk. But I think I do a little bit of Dharma teaching in the clinics. Right, right. Using a lot of the practical tips on managing the mind. Or speaking of being a monk, he said, there's been an inclination to be a monkey everything about going back to robes at any time. Yes. But it's complicated. You know, I have a partner, all right. And that makes it more complicated. So probably doing a temporary ordination would be a longer one would be more acceptable. And then see what happens. In fact, right now, and I'm talking to you on my computer, but I have my little shrine in front of me. And I still use my robes, my old robes, so they allowed me to bring it home. It's like the the tablecloth of my shrine is my old sitting row, what they call it the setting. What's the square one? The sitting cloth? Yeah, the setting cloth. So the setting cloth is where my Buddha statue is sitting.

Zach  59:24

Buddha's sitting on you sit in class.

Tony  59:27

I still have my robes. Uh huh. And once in a while I still smelling

Zach  59:33

Yeah, I think about it is in the future. So perhaps someday we'll be in robes again. And if not, we just kind of keep plugging along and yeah. Growing as we can.

Tony  59:44

Yeah, it's, it's still always in my mind. So it's never been extinguished. Yeah. Probably the older I get, the more I want to do it.

Zach  59:59

Great. Hope you get a chance.

Tony  1:00:02

I have some friends who tell me, Tony, you know, yeah, it would be nice if you're a Buddhist monk, but you can actually do more good things as a lay person. But of course, I don't go into the discussion of now I disagree with you. Yeah, because it's hard to Yeah. Because they view the world in. Yes. You know, service ethical terms, the most important thing? Yeah, yeah, you know, you can you can teach more people about these things, if you're a lay person, but if you're a Buddhist monk, I will have less reach and less access to the people who will never be close to Buddhism in the outside world, but I just keep quiet.

Zach  1:00:48

Well, I mean, they are, they are correct. In that sense, you are as a lay person having that effect on people. And I think that's a wonderful thing. Are you bringing an opportunity for it without trying to convert people just like making the benefits of awareness available to people? And if people are more interested, kind of like saying, Hey, you know, this is where it comes from? If you're interested, there's even more down the same road. So that's beautiful, beautiful.

Tony  1:01:15

Yeah. Yeah. The most exciting the most exciting thing for me, actually, in my whole life, so if I were to die soon, and I were to write, you know, the highlights of my life, becoming a monk would be up there. And also my arms rounds with my, you know, surrounds in poor areas of outside the unknown, where people are so poor, but they're so happy to give me food, I was actually in tears, right. But one other highlight was, and I started to teach mindfulness in prison. Right? That, for me, is the highest of my different highlights. And it's incredible how inmates will just, we'll just take to it, right, and practice it. And then the following week, or a few weeks later, they'll tell me in a hushed voice, because they don't want to share it to everyone. They'll just talk to me and say, you know, Tony, you know, you gave me that instruction and breathing, because I give them a sheet of paper, because they're not allowed computers that allowed a lot of things in school. Yeah. And then they, I remember this inmate saying, he posted my instructions on his wall, in his cell. And he's practicing regularly. And with his mindfulness of the breath, practice, his panic attacks went away. Wow. Because every time every time the doors in the prison slam, they're really loud. Yes. And it can happen hundreds of times during the day. And every time it will slam, he will have a panic. And with mindfulness, his panic attack went away. And I was thinking, Oh, my gosh, you know, it's already worth it. Even just for this one person, absolutely doing very basic mindfulness of the breath and mindfulness of emotions, mindfulness of thoughts, how it can be so transformative to people who are suffering. So for me, that's one of the highlights ever of my mindfulness practice is sharing it with prisoners and then really taking on to it.

Zach  1:03:45

Do sadhu, Sadhu

Tony  1:03:48

I'm looking forward to starting the sessions again, with inmates in a couple of weeks? Because I was away for about a year. All right. And now I'm, I want to do more in the prison system. And because these are people who will not encounter much Dharma at all

Zach  1:04:05

right, right. So it'd be what we would call an underserved population of people that are very, very, very, very underserved, but very open, you know, not that every single one is going to be open to it. But, you know, at that point, you know, there's a lot of self reflection in them. And you know, I mean, not always right, you can get caught up in commiserating as well, you know, victimization or whatever it can be, but there will be a percentage of that are really, perhaps quite open to it. So that's great. Great to hear that. Surprisingly,

Tony  1:04:38

I was expecting, you know, in a unit of 50 men. Uh huh. I was already preparing myself. If no one attends my session, at least I'll meditate in the prison. Right, right. But if there's one or two, I'll be very happy and you're talking about 15 minutes. So if one or two Come, I'll be, I'll be happy. Right? But normally 10 to 15 1015 guys will show up regularly. Okay. And that's for me. That's not a bad statistic. 10 to 15. That's about 30%.

Zach  1:05:15

That's right. 20 to 30%.

Tony  1:05:17

Exactly. Yeah. And these are people who want to attend basic mindfulness session. So anyway, I can hear the background noise, some work going on there. It's actually

Zach  1:05:32

some kind of insect. I live in the jungle. So there's all these like, Oh, really? Yeah, just some sort of, yeah, it's like some kind of cricket something rubbing its legs together in a cricket kind of way. Oh, yeah, really itchy, really loud one. But here we have two different kinds of geckos that make noises, we have dogs and a rooster and these frogs, especially when it rains make a lot of noise. And then these kind of all different kinds of crickets and cicadas type insects that fill up the space of sound.

Tony  1:06:07

That's incredible. I thought it was an electric saw or something.

Zach  1:06:11

It's kind of what it sounds like. But yeah, it's and now it's gotten totally quiet. So you know. Yeah, just never know. But so yeah, my podcasts are filled with all kinds of funny sounds. Sometimes there's just certain sounds I just can't i can't prevent. So they just got to be there. It's part of life. Yeah. Anyways, great. That was fun, Tony, thanks for coming on.

Tony  1:06:31

Thank you, Zack. I hope that was helpful. Yeah.

Zach  1:06:39

Welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here. Thanks, Zach. I'm so happy to be here. And thank you for inviting me to be a part of Insight Myanmar. You're welcome. Tell me a little bit. Are you in Manila right now? I understand. Is that right? Actually, I lived in Laguna, it's about 45 minutes south of Manila. So tell me a little bit about that. Like, what's your life like? You know, and I know a few things about you. But it'd be interesting for our listeners to hear. Yeah, I actually am just on lockdown right now. And just like most people in the world, it's some very interesting times that we're living in. And the past few months have been really interesting, because there's been a lot of changes. In the beginning, I was teaching on a daily basis, I was doing live meditations. And then I was kind of blocked by Facebook from doing that. And so I kind of stopped for a little while. And now what I'm seeing is a lot more movement in the mindfulness field where I'm doing a lot more work internationally. So apart from the offerings that we do with Philippine insight, meditation community, there's also work that I am doing with mindful leader. And that's a daily meditation that I do. And there's some also some personal classes that I teach daily with mindful movement. So we're really integrating a lot of more embodiment practices to connect us with our body, and the meditation practice. And apart from that, you know, Zach, I'm also a mother. And, you know, there's also a lot of other aspects in life, I love to be outside and garden, and, you know, go and get some fresh air and some sunshine and do things that will help really sustain me during these times. Right, so yeah, these are interesting times. So you're a you're a mindfulness teacher, and you are you teaching more online these days?

Imee Contreras  1:08:57

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I haven't really seen any other opportunities to teach in person. So the technology has been something that I needed to work with, and learn more about, and thankful for zoom. And I'm also seeing that even the online platform is a great way to connect with people. And there's bridges that are being built, you know, across oceans and continents in a way that I have never experienced before. before when I would teach in the United States, of course, I would have to fly there. And, you know, it really depended on me being there in person. But now, there's so many invitations for me to be a part of teaching in UCLA, for example, or places like the insight centers in California. So it's it's just feels a lot more connected. Yet at the same time, you know, or here we're at home and still building these connections and cultivating relationships.

Zach  1:10:14

What I find interesting about the Philippines is one of the few Asian countries that wasn't really touched by, by Buddhism by the Dhamma. And so I'd like to explore that a little bit, you know, being a predominantly Catholic society, if we could go back a little bit in time. And if you wouldn't mind sharing about how, how you were brought up in, in terms of the Filipino culture, and then what your first kind of contact or inclination towards these spiritual practices, I mean, you not only practice and teach mindfulness, but you're also a yoga teacher, right? So I'm interested in hearing where all that like what it was like, in your culture? Because this is sort of an anomaly. And then, and then yeah, what were those first touches with an interest in the Dhamma and spirituality? Yeah, so I was born here. I was born in Manila. And I was actually a pretty religious kid. It's funny, because I was reflecting on that last night, there were a couple of years in my life as a child, between eight and 10 years old, where I would walk to church almost on a daily basis and pray, pray to Jesus, for money for certain things. And when I was 11, I moved to the US and things really shifted a lot for me, it's a lot of adjusting to different culture and way of life. So the religion really fell away pretty quickly. And then especially becoming a teenager, I just ended up becoming more of a rebel than anything else. And

Tony  1:11:50

through

Zach  1:11:51

the rebellion, I suppose I started to get more connected, who more spiritual side of myself rather than the religious side. And that's because I started to go to Grateful Dead concerts. And this is when I started, I started to feel incense, the connection with people, you know, and, and things that, you know, really just open my mind up a lot. I started to question a lot more about religion and so many other things in life that I was taught. And I'm laughing because I was also a deadhead for about 15 years starting in about the mid 80s. Right, I started going to dead shows in 1990. When, just before Brent Midland died.

1:12:45

Right, right. Yeah.

Zach  1:12:47

So does any of that opening up towards spirituality? Did that include any of the like the what they call mind? expanding psychedelic experience of LSD or mushrooms or any of that? Absolutely. It did for me, so absolutely. Right. Yeah. So so that actually, you know, it is it's my doors of perception were completely blasted open. And, yeah. And so it was when I was 16. Actually, I had run into I was just kind of rummaging through things in my house, and I saw a blog and it was about Transcendental Meditation. And that's when I experimented a little bit. And mind you, my teenage years and my early 20s, I was completely immersed in the Grateful Dead scene that I did not even remember that I was still meditating up into my early 20s. One of my one of my friends reminded me that she and I were were roommates or flatmates it in Oakland, and she'd say, I'd have to wait outside your room till you were done meditating. And I was like, really? Oh, okay. So, so it was something that I took up, but not seriously, and not. Yeah, it wasn't enough for me to actually remember. Right, you know, and now that I'm 46. But then what happened was when I was 24, ended up coming back to the Philippines, not by choice, but because I had been deported. And that deportation process actually started when I was 16. And so that's 16 was a was a great milestone for me, because it was that suffering. And that confusion in my life and also being a teenager combined with with the expansion and the mind opening. And that really brought me in more into the spirituality.

1:14:45

Right.

Zach  1:14:46

So in my early 20s, I ended up coming back to the Philippines. And what was that? Like? How did that how did that culture interact with your rebellious side or this Kind of budding spirituality interested into? Like, did you find connection there? Or was there a bit of a rub? Or friction? Or like, how did that go? Oh, it just kind of put my fire out. Really, I mean, it was difficult for me, it was 10 years of absolute. being lost, you know, I didn't know anybody here, so much so, but I just didn't know where to place myself. And I was an individual in the US where then I was thrown back here to the Philippines, where everyone seemed to be conformist, everyone dressed the same and talk the same and wanted to be the same. And so I had to really douse out that fire for me to feel like I had a place here, you know that I have a sense of belonging somehow, so that I could be safe. But that sense of adventure was still very much there. And so I ended up moving to the beach and working there. But, you know, then, because I was lost for so long. For those 10 years, I was traveling a bit. But ever since I was 16, I remember there was a voice in the back of my head telling me that you need to find Buddhism, but I didn't know what Buddhism was, because all I knew was capitalism. Right? And nor did I have that presence of mind, you know, to to look up what Buddhism was, it was just there, you know. And eventually, after having been back here in the Philippines for a few years, I ended up meeting someone who is from Thailand, but she lives here. So she became one of my best friends. And I ended up working for Philippine diver magazine. And then they wanted to start Thai diver magazine. So they sent me over to Thailand. And that's when I thought because traveling with my Thai best friend that I might find Buddhism, going from one temple to the next. And doing all of those rituals is shaking those sticks out of that, that cup and ringing the bells and putting coins in the bowls. And I thought, okay, you know, maybe I'll find Buddhism. And it just never felt like I connected with anything. And eventually I ended up going to India, and staying in the ashram. One of my roommates had just finished a 10 day silent meditation retreat. And she was so mean to me. Really, sheet a sheet really was directed like fire arrows at me all the time, because it felt like I had finally met my people, you know, because being there and here in the Philippines and feeling like I just couldn't find my crew I didn't, you know, is still trying to make my way and like feel a sense of belonging here. And then finally I go to India where there's people from all over the world here in this ashram and we're doing yoga, I was just like, oh my god, finally I made. Right. And it's funny because on the way to my ashram from Mumbai, one of the students that ended up on the same train as me going there was wearing the Grateful Dead t shirt. I was like, Oh, my God, there it is. So, that seems to happen in India. I mean, I have a big Indian history too. And there's so much serendipity and unfolding and a sense of like, a sense of coming home and a lot of people yeah, I find that it's one of those places. It's whether it's either you really hate, or you really love and feel at home in India, and I'm definitely one of those who feel that that's my second home. So you have a natural ease and being able to do the head wobble. No, I haven't gotten that one done. I yeah, I feel the same way. Yeah, it divides people either love it, or you can't wait to get out. You know, but but as my friend said, Mother, India, she, she kisses and she slaps, but it's always with love. But there's it's just, it's just, it's great. Yeah, it's just like, there's so many people. I love that. That's a nice Mother, you know, she'll put you in your place, but in a loving way. I've had both. Yeah. But yeah, just going back to No, this, you know, experience in the ashram where there was this woman who had just finished a silent 10 day meditation retreat, and she was so upset with me because I was so bubbly and happy and I was like, wow, you know, and there were some times also that people would come to our room and if I have doing my laundry in the bathroom, which was outside of our actual dorm room, and they would come and talk to me because I was so friendly. And I mean, nobody knew she was trying to meditate in her little bedroom where there were curtains around. And so that's why she just she hated me. Because apparently, during her meditations, she was unable to concentrate because people were coming to talk to me. So, one day, I said to one of my friends from Iran, I was like, hey, if that's what meditation does to you, I'll never meditate. And then that's when she said, No, I mean, it's such a beautiful experience. And I did it before and I stayed in my room, and I cried my eyes out for three days and never went out of my room. You should try it. And I was like, Oh, okay. And, you know, and I say this. And I don't actually even consider the fact that I had been meditating within the Mahayana tradition for years before I ran into this Theravada tradition, right. And, you know, because the practice that I was doing was chanting. And it never really occurred to me that the practice of chanting was already helping me to see more clearly into my mind, and the kind of thoughts that were arising and passing and then realizing, Oh, my gosh, I thought it was a positive and happy person, and then seeing the thoughts in my mind made me really step back and go, Oh, hold on a minute. I am not who I think I am. Hmm. Oh, great. So you know, that was my real introduction to really committing to a practice was through the chanting in the Mahayana tradition. And then in India, finding out about this 10 day Silent Retreat. And so when I came back here to the Philippines, I looked it up, and I found a retreat. And I was on the waitlist for a while, but then they eventually said, Oh, no, we can't turn people away. So they, they allowed everyone to come. And my only challenge to myself, and the reason why I was interested to join was I wanted to know, can I not speak for 10 days straight? I was like, Am I capable of that? noble silence challenge? Right. So I mean, I didn't know what I was getting myself into. And that was really just me like, okay, am I able to not talk? Just to be clear, is this a this is a good retreat? Is that right? Yes, yes, this was my first retreat, ever. And yeah, so you know, you go into it, you go into the retreat with that kind of attitude. And, you know, your only goal is, see if you can't, like if you can keep your mouth shut. You know, and then you go into a Quaker retreat, and you're like, Oh, my God, my body is killing me. And, you know, my legs on fire, and I just want to do my yoga, and they won't let me do my stretching. You know, and so it was a huge wake up call. But it was life changing. And that was the time when I said to myself, I found it. I found this practice that I'm looking for, I found what year was this? This was in 2009. Okay. Yeah. So, so that's when you know, this voice in my head at 16 saying, Look, you're looking, you know, look for Buddhism or find Buddhism. And then it wasn't until 2009. When I thought this is what I'm looking for, you know. And it's funny because Ganga tradition is also trying to be more secular than outright Buddhist right? And that they have been explicit in saying that you don't have to change your religion, you don't have to become Buddhist, right? So I ended up finding home in the practice of Vipassana, you know, and in whatever way that you might translate that. Okay, and so I was really dedicated I was a dedicated practitioner, for a good couple of years. I was volunteering and serving a lot. In fact, I when I was pregnant, seven months pregnant, I was serving with my son inside my womb. And I was convinced by the assistant teacher that I should actually sit rather than serve during the retreat. And my son ended up being the second Dhamma child is what they call them, because there was another pregnant woman before me that that set a retreat. So so my son who I call Quinn Quinn the Eskimo Grateful Dead reference. He? Yes, absolutely. So he's a he's the second baby in the Philippines. That sounds that sounds actually from another band though. Yes, manford man. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it was a cover cover song by the Grateful Dead. Anyways. So I was I was a very active community member, I guess what you would call in the Ganga tradition. And what happened was eventually after having had some pretty mind blowing experiences, during my retreats, I had questions that just needed that couldn't be answered in that space. And I explored and I expanded a little bit more outside of the go anchor tradition. And eventually, when they found out that I was exploring other things, then they said that that was not going to fly. So I eventually got banned from coming to retreat. And that's how my, my journey ended up really opening up into practicing with other people, other traditions. And that is how Philippine insight became what it is right now. So Philippine insight meditation community was born out of three people who, you know, were three co founders who just had a profound love for the Dharma. And we just wanted to practice together in a place that was kind and gentle. Right, you know, and incorporating compassion. And, you know, it's still like being very sincere in our practice, and also being able to show up in all the different versions of who we are, and still be met, you know, we can meet each other exactly where we're at at that moment. And that's what Philippine insight meditation community is about. Right? Yeah, so we're a Theravada tradition as well. And how did we end up becoming this organization? Is that your question? It's mentioning, like in that sea of Catholicism, and then not being, you could say that going to traditions, you know, it's established there, they have a center and everything. So and then being outside of that now in that in the Philippines, how did you come across? How did you meet these other two?

1:27:46

Oh, it's funny, because there's this woman who is the most incredible person that I know. She was in Palawan on one of the islands, and I ended up going there. And she was in a retreat center, which was it was a it's a raw food center, right? That necessarily meditation and that's where I went. So we met there. And I had just done my second blanket retreat. And I was super fundamentalist. I was like, oh, blank, blank, blank. Oh, it's the pure thing, you know. And there she is. She's like, Oh, yeah, I'm, you know, my mentor is jack kornfield. And I'm right now training with spirit rock as being the dominant leader. And I was like, Who's jack kornfield? And, no, I don't want to hear it. I'm like, Oh, my God, My God, my God, you know, but she and I sat together for about eight hours at that table. And we, we just did nothing but talk about the Dhamma and really built a connection through that. But there I was, in my own path. And there she is, in this gentle, loving and kind path. And here I am going, we're the only pure ones, right? And this was before I was banned, actually, like, not long after that meeting, I was banned by the Glinka tradition, the organization. And then I found myself, like, again, in this place where I'm alone, I have no community. What am I going to do? So I messaged Carol, I emailed her and I said, When are you going to start holding community sips because I really need a community. And that coincidentally, it was around the same time as another friend who was so interested in what she was about because she was with spirit rock. She's the student of jack kornfield. So they were having their own separate conversation. And eventually what happened was they decided that they were going to do a book study. And they they messaged me and asked me if I could bring a group together. And I did, and we started off with 10 people just coming together on a weekly basis studying, you know, studying, it was actually one of jack kornfield books. And that's how Philippine insight came about with the encouragement of jack kornfield himself because Carol was going, you know, back and forth between the Philippines and San Francisco at that time while she was still training at Sparrow. And jack jack was I guess, started go. And that's the reason why we call ourselves insight community because we're still a part of that insight community in the US.

Zach  1:30:35

Okay, is Carol. She's the one you met in Palawan. And it What does she live? She live in Manila. Is that like you guys physically meet? Or is it more an online thing? or combination? Is it all throughout the Philippines? Or is it more like just like physically based somewhere?

1:30:50

Carol right now is in San Francisco. She has since moved back to the US. She's She's not Filipino. She's, she's an American, okay. And she just is actually next week, she's graduating from the formal teacher training of spirit rock. So she's now one of the main teachers, the new, fresh blood of teachers of spirit rock. And what's beautiful about Carol is that she braids indigenous work into her teachings into her Dharma teaching, right? She's half Native American. And so you know, she's integrating a lot of the earth based practices with the teachings themselves. So that so she's in San Francisco, and then the other co founder, Robin Velasco is in Manila. And, and so we're both here in the Philippines, where he's actually a psychologist now. So he's doing a lot of therapy work with people, whereas I'm the one that's really managing and and now the guiding and leading teacher of Philippine insight.

Zach  1:32:06

Do you have a physical place? Or do you rent? Or how does that organize?

Imee Contreras  1:32:11

Well, right now we're doing everything online. So I'm, we don't have an actual physical space we used to when we first started because Carol had a wellness center, templo Wellness Center in the city, so we had an actual physical space. And up until recently, we were also partnering with yoga studios that would allow us to come and hold space. So it's, it had never really been an issue because people really believed in what we were doing. And they were generous enough to allow for us to come there and, and continue to build our community. The thing is that, you know, here in the Philippines, it's not that easy to build community, because as you said, We are very prominently Catholic country. So we started in 2011. And I feel like I am still in the process of really getting it moving. It looks like it's finally moving. The Wheel of the Dhamma is slowly turning, and there's already some momentum going. And

Zach  1:33:18

when I heard that before, so it's going to definitely take a lot more patience and commitment. And hopefully, it's, it's just going to keep growing bigger and bigger. Right? That's exactly what I was interested in asking is like, what is the interest? Like there? You know, there's that landing place for people and they're going to organization and now it sounds like it's actually expanding to have more, more? What's the word variety or possibilities of ways to practice and enter or different things to try? So what is it you teach there? Like? Do you teach a specific technique or you say you like on a piano? So I'm interested in what you offer there to people and what the level of interest is in Filipino people? Yeah, so there are there are very few people that I know, at least within my immediate circle, that have incredible interest in the Buddhist teachings. Most people that I see coming into these spaces are more interested in the meditation itself, rather than the suta studies, for example, or the Dhamma. And because they're, you know, they're wanting to decompress, or maybe they're trying to find ways to Yeah, to come to a better place and let go of the suffering that they're feeling or the stress that they're experiencing. So what has happened in the evolution of me becoming Firstly, certified as a community Dharma leader at spirit rock, Me still trying to bring forward Buddhist teachings through Philippine insight, what I have had to do was then get trained at UCLA to speak the more secular way to bring this practice, right people. And that's that's kind of like just what naturally came up for me is what I thought I needed to do to bring the practice to a wider population of people who would otherwise not walk in through the Buddhist door. Right. So as Philippine insight meditation community, the way that we do it is that we meditate for 45 minutes, so we're still applying the format as what you would find in spirit rock, or any of the insight meditation centers and in the West, so it's a 45 minute practice. And usually I'm guiding it, and what we anchor on is the breath, of course, you know, bringing into the play of awareness of our body and keeping it really very simple to begin with. And then we do a Dharma talk, we apply at least you know, you bring in a little bit of the sutas, and depending also on who we're speaking to, right, so, for example, on Sunday, we're going to be offering mindful self compassion practices more in a secular way of teaching it. And whereas in our last teaching, we talked about the Brahma vihara. Okay. And so when I teach, because now because we're online, I can bring Carol in, and I can bring other teachers in, but me, for me, my approach to teaching is always really incorporating a lot of the voice of my personal teacher tennis aerobics, who, like one time I taught at InSite LA, and I was teaching about climate change. And I asked him for advice. So I was like, how do I teach this? He's like, yeah, there are no teachings, changes. But he did give me advice, you know, he gave me the metaphor of the mountain, you know. And so it's great to have access to somebody who's so well versed in the sutas, and still guiding me in that way. Because, of course, I really want to stay true to the teachings as best as I can, right at the same time, and yet, at the same time, be able to meet meet people where they're at? How ready are they for this? That's how we are navigating? And, and it's, you know, it's like, you're always trying to figure things out every moment, because you'll never know who's gonna show up. Right? So it's always an adjustment. Right? So you also teach yoga, right? So a lot of people are interested in yoga, more for fitness and exercise and body health. And then you're also saying people are interested in at least a secular version of mindfulness. So that all sounds like a good progress. I mean, in the sense of meeting people where they're at, perhaps you can say something about that, like, what's the interest in yoga in the Philippines like? And is that kind of a gateway to to mindfulness? Do you see some of those people wanting to, to take it a little bit further? Do you see that kind of trajectory in the interest? I'm starting to see that more and more these days. But when I first started teaching yoga here in the Philippines, in 2009, people would come in and ask me to I have to change my religion to practice yoga. Right? And, you know, there was that understanding, and that way, and there were still very few yoga teachers in 2009. But now there's a lot. And we have had so many different iterations and variations of yoga studios, but unfortunately, during these COVID times, a lot of them had also shut down, right? So yes, and the thing is, is, the more mature yoga practitioners are now more and more heading toward the meditative practices. But in the beginning, definitely people were coming in because they wanted to become more sexy, or they wanted to become more flexible, right. And the thing is, is that there's not that it's not a problem, you know, that that is that gateway where you know, no matter what your reason is for coming in to the practice, whether it be yoga or meditation. If you end up studying with a good teacher, eventually you're going to meet that that path where it leads right to, yes, happiness or, you know, becoming more connected with yourself. Internal and external and the interactive play of that. And yeah, and you'll notice some incredible changes and profound changes in your life. So it doesn't matter your reason for going in. But I think it's important that you end up finding the right teacher who's gonna get you to, you know, to the place where it feels like, it's meeting you, you know, wherever and whenever you're ready. Right, right. For these teachings, it's like the teacher if, if you just taught fitness yoga, then that'd be as far as it goes. And, and then doing more than that, like teaching mindfulness or, or even beyond that. Yeah, it's not something that needs to be pushed, but just the fact that it's available. And then if you're, you know, there's if there's an interest in what you're giving, then over time, yeah, those that wanted go, you know, that direction. And as far as they want to go, you know, that you hold that space and make that available. I think that's great. Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the most important things as a teacher is that I stay true to who I am. I have always been very dedicated to traditional yoga practice. I have not veered away and start teaching, let's say, Bikram or universal yoga or goat yoga. You know, that's where the interest is. Yes. Have you not heard of it? Oh,

1:41:28

okay. I

Zach  1:41:28

heard of it. Yeah, I did. Is that a real thing? Where you practice and there's goats in the room, you know? Or there's even there's even high heel yoga, right? Uh huh. So and that's, that's always evolving. But I have always stayed true to the traditional teachings of yoga practice, because, because I know that that is supposed to lead me to meditation, the eight limbs of yoga is all about moving toward the last four limbs, which is the going more internally, you know, the pratyahara and then going towards contemplation? Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's really all about the meditation. And the also the evolution and the progression, or people might even consider it regression of my practice is that the, the Asana, or the postures, or this physical practice became less and less important to me. And my formal meditation practice, or the integration of my meditation practice into my life became more and more important, and a priority for myself, right? Not only as a teacher, but also as a practitioner, who is very dedicated. I'd like to ask you a little bit about your journey. Your journey was personal for a while, and then and then there was a transition or addition to also having an interest in teaching people. So whether it was yoga first and then mindfulness after or however that unfolded. That's interesting. So how did that desire to to share what you practice and experienced and gained with other people? The truth is, I never went to India, for the teacher training to become a teacher. The reason why I went there was because I couldn't afford to pay for yoga classes here in the Philippines, it was costing me too much. And I just figured that it would cost me a lot less if I were to invest and go to India. And, and learn it and become more committed through immersing myself and then coming back here so that I'm not dependent on any teacher. That's the reason why I went. Now. Consequently, I came back with a certificate, an authorization from the Indian government to teach. So I went with it. And it's the same way with becoming a meditation or mindfulness teacher. I never really sought out to become a teacher. And in fact, it was a big surprise to me. When one day I received news that I had been nominated for the community Dharma leadership training at spirit rock. And that was a really scary time for me, because mind you I was deported. And it was 18 years already. I had not tried to go back to the US because I was so traumatized, right? So there was no way I was ever going to go back. Because there was one time when I did try to go back in the beginning when I first got supported that I went to the immigration and the embassy and the guy behind the desk looks at me and says What makes you think I'm going to let a criminal into my country. And that for me was a last straw. I was not going to put myself through that again. And then here I am, I get nominated for the spirit rock training, because of the commitment and the dedication and the love that I had for the Dharma, right? And then I'm like, Oh, no, I have, like, if they accept me, and I have to go back to the, to get a visa, haha, see, I have to go back to the immigration. I was like, Oh my god, I mean, I was so nervous for a really long time. And then, of course, I didn't have money, I couldn't fly to California, and I couldn't afford to pay for this training. But Wow, what happened? I got a scholarship, you know, and then all the more I was forced to go and apply for a visa, because how could I possibly turn my back on this opportunity? This is the actual unfoldment of the Dharma, this is this. It's all opening for me, you know, my practice, is they're showing the fruits. So finally, I went and do some of that Indian serendipity expanding beyond the borders of India. And you know, the thing is, is my life has been that way ever since I can remember. And I think it really most started to show itself during those Grateful Dead times. That was happening already right? Long before I came here. So yeah, and if so eventually, of course, I ended up going to the embassy. And I asked, of course, I applied for my visa, and the guy behind this, now there's a plastic shield in front of him, it was no longer at desk where I entered the office. But now, you know, people line up and kind of go through the queue. And the guy behind that window was like, looking at computer looking sort of confused. So I said, Hey, I don't know if it shows you there that I was deported in 1997. And, you know, so I told him the whole story. And at the end of my story, says Siri, you know, the easiest thing for any of us here, and then he just points to the people behind him. And he says, the easiest thing for any of us here to do is say no, right? give you back your passport and send you off. But you seem like a really nice and honest person. So what I'll do is I'll give you back your passport now. And I will investigate to see what really happened with your case. I was like, Okay, well, could you you know, is there any way that I can make your this job easier for you? What is it that I can do to help you make these decisions faster and easier? He said, Well, if you have any documents about what happened, then send them to me. So I went home. And thankfully, I had all my ducks in a row with that. That's one of the biggest lessons that I learned when I got supported was to keep your documents in line, you know. And so I had all the documentation, I sent them to him and along. So that's it. And then a couple of weeks went by and I'd already forgotten that I was waiting for a call and I don't usually answer my phone. I don't really like talking on the phone. But finally my phone rings and thankfully, I answered it and some the voice on the other end says Hi, this is the US embassy and we're just wondering if you could send us your passport. And I was like, Okay, great. Then of course and I was so nervous because I thought maybe they'll send me back my passport saying you're never allowed to come back. You know, you're like forever banned from coming into the country. So finally, when my passport arrived, I got a 10 year multiple entry visa. Oh, and that was that was another chapter, you know, another turn of the other? Yes, yes. And that's how it all started for me then, you know, coming into spirit rock, and we were 101 people and I was surrounded by brilliant people, really, and I was just like, do I belong here? Of course, because I didn't intend to become a teacher in any way. But two years, two years of training and learning to take my seat, you know, and and it's still, you know, a progression and a learning process for me of how how to hold this seat and how to show up in the most authentic way because I am still human. And to be grounded, you know, and, and to make sure that I am somebody that In integrity with regard to teaching the Dhamma, and to helping people in whatever way that serves them best in the time that they arrive, and as they progress in the practice. And also keeping in mind that, you know, I really want to be able to be a part of the growth of this mindful movement or the Buddhist communities here in the Philippines. So yeah, it's really interesting how things happen without you even planning. Right, I'm interested, I'm interested in hearing from you about what, what you hope for what you're seeing, now that you've completed your training and your your teaching more and, and you're also teaching yoga. So you provide a gateway, which is a common gateway, starting with kind of the body, and then making available more and more steps to people. So what do you envision in the future in the Philippines for Filipino people? And do you see like, there's some, any kind of cultural need might be the wrong word. But you know, is there like a good fit there once people kind of get over some of the more like, religious hurdles that they might start with? You know, yeah, so how do you see the evolution or and what do you hope for in the future? Yeah, I think that I need to be very open to always offer various teachings, say, for example, right now I'm doing mindful movement. And because of the situation that we're in with this pandemic, I know for a fact, personally, that I want to keep myself healthy. And that's through tuning into the needs of my body. And that's why I'm offering mindful movement. And I feel like that's going to meet most people, generally. Right? not just here in the Philippines, but throughout the world, right. So I need to be, I need to be alert enough to know what the changing times are going to need. Now, the vision that I have for the Philippines is, yeah, that maybe one day, you know, people will start to open up more and more to learning and connecting with the roots of the mindfulness practice, if they come in through the secular doors, you know, because there's such profound insights that you gain from reading the teachings or even discussing them or sharing them. It's, it's incredible, because sometimes I would have questions about what's happening within my practice. And I remember being in what's one mock, and I had this question in my mind, and I was like, gosh, you know, I wonder why this keeps coming up for me in my practice. And I think on one of the last days, they had a bunch of books laid out on the table, and I just decided, I'll grab a random book, and I opened up to whatever page opens up for me. And funnily enough, my answer was there that the answer was right in front of my eyes, I was like, Oh, look, it there it is, and, and sometimes, you know, we, it's, it's a matter of just really like looking into those teachings for us to be able to connect more what's happening with our personal practice, we need to integrate both, you know, I think that there's really a lot of value not just to sit and meditate or walk and meditate. And even just kind of be present in the moment here. And now without judgment, the way it's being presented within the mindfulness field, but also, to go to the more traditional teachings, the ancient teachings of the Buddha, because, because first of all, I want to honor those. And secondly, profound lessons and insights that you can learn when you apply your own personal experience, to what is being taught. It just kind of like this big light bulb moment, sometimes when you're like, Oh my God, that's it. You know, I felt that in my body, you know, or that arose for me, like, in that, you know, in even like, oh, that that thought came to me when I was washing the dishes. Now I see it, I understand it, because I experienced it. Right. And in those moments, I think that that's like one of those in those moments. It doesn't seem like an ancient tradition in the sense of being outdated, but an ancient tradition of like, wow, this is still applicable today. And right now, it really touches my practice and becomes very informative and alive. And then an ancient wisdom rather than just an old book. Yes, and that's The beauty of Buddhism because it's, you know, just so relevant, so relevant, and especially now, and it's one of the things, you know, I came, really, I realized that when I wanted so badly to find Buddhism was the time when I was having such deep struggle. And the world that might be I don't want to generalize. Okay. But there's probably a lot of people globally that are feeling this struggle right now. And how beautiful would it be for us to be able to meet that? You know, and to help alleviate, in one way or another, even just a little through the breath, through the connecting with ourselves and our experience, the stress and the discomfort and the confusion that we're experiencing right now. Right. Yeah, I hope, I hope so. At least that it's available. And especially with, like you say that having to adapt. So using technology that's available to to be able to just make make these practices available to people. So let's hope that people find find their way to some kind of relief one way or another, and that this one's available for people. Yes. And that's why that's why I'm grateful for people like you that keep doing the work, too. So thanks. Thanks for you as well. You're doing great work as well. I'm glad to see things are alive and growing even more in the Philippines. Yeah, and you know, it would be great for us to continue to collaborate in these ways where Yeah, we're, we're building bridges. You know, we're, we're filling the gaps. And it's not just about Philippines, but how how do we as a global community really work together to make this more reality for everybody? Right? Well, the one thing that this time has taught us that we can reach out to each other pretty easily. So yeah, let's make that happen.

1:57:09

Awesome. Well, thank

Zach  1:57:10

you for your time. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks to to Zach. And I wish you a lot of happiness and amazing health. And yeah, thank you. appreciate all the work that you do. Yeah, you're welcome health and happiness to you as well. It's exactly what I was gonna say. Thank you.

Host  1:57:36

I know for a lot of podcast listeners, as soon as the fundraising requests start up, you just kind of zoned out or skip ahead till it's over. But I asked that if you're taking the time to listen to our full podcast, that you also take the time to consider our spiel. Some may assume that producing a two hour episode wouldn't take much more time than the conversation itself. But there's so much more that goes into it. Several weeks in advance our content team reviews the biography and any works of the upcoming guests and discusses the best way to use our limited time together. After the interview is completed, the raw audio file is sent to our sound engineer. A single episode can take him up to two days of solid work, which is carefully coordinated with our content team to ensure smooth listening. More work is done preparing the introduction of the guest and other segments, particularly the post interview reflection, and then mixing them back together to upload to the hosting site delivering the podcast that eventually reaches your years. And that's not even counting the written work accompanying the episodes we craft for website and podcast feed. Many of these steps require an outlay of funds in some form or another to support the process. We hope that each episode provides you with much inspirational and informative Dhamma content. And if so, we also hope that you can consider supporting our mission. If you would like to join in our mission to share the Dhamma from the golden land more widely. We welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. every cent goes immediately and directly to sustaining the programming. You can get right on our website via credit card by going to Insight myanmar.org slash donation or through PayPal by going to paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar. We also take donation through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and cashapp. In all cases, simply search Insight Myanmar on each platform and you'll find our account. Alternatively, you can also visit our website for specific links to any of these respective accounts. Or feel free to email us at info at Insight myanmar.org in all cases, that's Insight Myanmar one word spelled i en si gh t MYA, and M AR if you We'd like to give in another way please contact us. Thank you for your kind consideration. You have been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we would appreciate it very much. If you would be willing to rate review and or share this podcast, every little bit of feedback helps. If you're interested, you can subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Also, please check out our website for a list of our complete episodes including additional text videos and other information at www dot Insight myanmar.org that's Insight Myanmar one word i en si gh T, NY and Mar. If you cannot find our feed on your podcast player, please let us know and we will ensure that it can be offered there. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a POST request specific questions and join in our discussions on the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You are also most welcome to follow our Facebook and Instagram accounts by the same name of Insight Myanmar. And if you're not on Facebook, you can also message us directly at Burma dama@gmail.com. That's b u r ma d h a mma@gmail.com. And we're also active on Dharma wheel. If you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that forum here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would also like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible, especially our two sound engineers, Martin combs and darnay. There's of course that Kessler content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with editing. Drago spent DITA and Andre Francois produce original artwork and a special Mongolian volunteer who was asked to remain anonymous does our social media templates. We'd also like to thank everyone who assisted us in arranging for the guests we have interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves for agreeing to come and share such powerful personal stories. Finally, we are immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We also remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and not necessarily reflective of the host or other podcast contributors. Please also note, as we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show there's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us. This recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes video audio written transcripts and excerpts of any episodes. It is also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we are very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. As you know our podcasts are 100% listener supported. We welcome your contribution in any amount, denomination and transfer method you may give via patreon@patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar via paypal@paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar or by credit card by going to Insight myanmar.org slash donation. In all cases, that's Insight Myanmar one word i en si gh T, NY and Mar. If you'd like to give especially to support our new run of Coronavirus episodes, please go on the GoFundMe site and search Insight Myanmar to find our campaign. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation please feel free to get in touch with us. Thanks and see you next show.