Transcript: Voices: Burmese Theravada in a Catholic Land, Part 2

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Mon Rivera, which appeared on December 27, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Host  00:00

As past listeners to our show may well know, we are committed to telling stories about Burma Dhamma on this platform, in my own personal experience, the deeper I go into my own learning, the more I discover there is to learn within this broad field. We're committed to authentically relaying stories to our listening audience that explore a diversity of topics illustrating the depth and breadth of Dhamma practice and Buddhist culture in the golden land. We are also always open to new suggestions. So if you would like to suggest a topic or theme that you feel is worth examining on future episodes, please be in touch with us. And with that, let's get onto today's show.

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Host  01:34

This is the second episode in our series exploring Filipino meditators affected by the Dhamma of the Golden land. If you haven't heard the previous show, I recommend you take a moment to do so now. In this current episode, we tell the story of just one Filipino meditator Raymond Riviera, or month for short. One is a special guy, and I kind of consider him the Johnny Appleseed of Filipino meditators. For those non Americans who may not get the reference. Man is a guy freely spreading seeds of Dhamma for many in this community to plant and grow, like Johnny Appleseed did with apple seeds across the early American landscape. Monday and I have been in touch for a number of years. He was one of the earliest followers of my blog nearly a decade ago now, knowing him a bit better now. I realized why he was so attracted to our time flooding site is thirst for Domino knowledge animates his overall spiritual practice. On a recent trip to the Philippines, I finally have the good fortune of meeting up with Milan at a Manila cafe inside one of the new modern malls in Makati. Manas, a dedicated practitioner who serves as a kind of nexus of Dom activity in the country. While there are 1000s of Filipinos living throughout Myanmar, most are working in some capacity or another, with only a small minority who traveled there primarily for the dominant man is one of those few. He's taken several trips to the golden land. undertaking his own personal pilgrimage is to train at a handful of monasteries to then bring back his newfound wisdom and experience to his homeland. Through the several Facebook pages and group forums he manages he answers questions, shares information and encourages others in this community to make their own spiritual journeys. So when we had the idea to do a podcast series on this topic, man was naturally one of the first people that came in mind to speak with he was quite helpful and talking through the possible guests to have on and assisted with personal introductions to those people. And of course, we couldn't do a series without hearing from himself. So I'm very pleased to now bring you his story. Today's episode is sponsored by Motu he dedicates it to families and colleagues at the Royal Dutch Shell company.

Zach  03:51

I'm here with mon Rivera. Welcome to the Insight Myanmar podcast.

Mon Rivera  03:55

Hello, is that good morning. It's morning here in the Philippines.

Zach  04:00

Great to have you here, mon. So yeah, we're here to talk to you about Dom in the Philippines. And well, I won't I won't give away the storyline. But yeah, there's an interesting story. We'd like to hear from you today.

04:14

Ah, all right. I'm happy to be here to share also our experience in the Philippines and to show gratitude to the Myanmar people. Because the kind of meditation that practice is basically influenced by the Burmese traditions.

Zach  04:32

Great. So man, what was your What was your upbringing, like? Philippines is predominantly a Catholic country. So what was your familial religious background?

04:42

I would probably be considered a typical Filipino in the sense that I was brought up a scaffolding. We are 90% I think Christian and 80% are Catholics that there 10% are Protestant So actually, I studied in a Roman Catholic school during my elementary years, I shifted to a government school. But when I went back to college, I was enrolled again, in a Jesuit school as very strongly Catholic background. We studied theology philosophy, so I'm I was well versed with the Catholic religion. And I would say that my family took our religion seriously. I remember my mom, you know, even when we were little, every evening, she would make us kneel down in front of out there. And we would recite the Rosary. And there I was, maybe I can't remember, when I started, probably I was five years old, when we started doing this. And the whole family would gather in front of the altar and mood really prayed the rosary, in unison. And we kept doing that until maybe I was in college where I wasn't with my mother and father anymore. I was studying separately, but they also may have brothers and sisters. So, yeah, I was well versed in the Catholic faith. And for me, it was, I consider it as a great stepping stone. I did learn a lot of things. There's a lot of great stuff in Catholic religion.

Zach  06:32

Right. So it sounds like a fairly typical Filipino upbringing and Catholicism. What was your first contact and interest with something that's non Catholic and non Christian even?

06:44

I was quite familiar with Muslim communities in our place. Actually, where I grew up, it was a Muslim area. I actually grew up in Brunei. My parents went to work there. Uh huh. And I was familiar with some of their beliefs. And I was impressed actually, with some of their practices, like, you know, low drinking or smoking, and they really kept to it. And then they have this regular fasting for one month, done every year. Right. So I was interested in finding out more about them. And when I went back to the Philippines for my college, no, I already had this open mindedness about looking into other religions. Uh huh. And I think what brought me to explore the Indian religions is my involvement in the martial arts, you know, we had some kind of yoga training and meditation. And I wanted to go deeper. So I explored mantra meditation. Probably the first practice I did was a so called Christian meditation, because I was still Catholic them, right? Then I discovered that, hey, this priest, he learned this technique from an Indian guru. So I said, Okay, why don't I go to the source? And I tried mantra meditation for a while.

Zach  08:04

Did you find someone there in the Philippines? Or was this on the internet? or How did you access that kind of teaching?

08:11

Oh, there was a student of Sorry, I forgot the name. Lauren's father, Lauren, Lauren, something. He came to the Philippines, I think this was around 1991. And he set up a group. They call it now Christian meditation group. And first, I took a workshop with him, and then I joined the group sporadically, but much of the time I was doing it on my own. Meditation was not that popular in the Philippines. Very few people wanted to study meditation, they were more into prayer and other stuff, rituals. Right. And I was with my family during the first seminar. And they said, Oh, this is kind of boring. And they dropped out. They called it boring, is sitting there quietly. But I, I persisted, but I didn't make too much progress them.

Zach  09:09

Right. But it was, it was a relatively easy transition, because it was meditation. That's how to say it was couched in Christian terms or prepared to be delivered for and practiced by Christians.

09:24

Yes, yes. You can see it that way. Yeah, that's right.

Zach  09:29

Yeah. So what point did you go beyond the Christian meditation and actually start to engage in Buddhist meditation or Hindu meditation more directly? How did that transition happen?

09:39

Well, actually, it opened my horizon. I was still clinging to my Christian faith, but I was more open minded then. And I explored other modalities. I even went into local shamanism, hmm. We had what we call rashaan. It's like power meditation. You know, something like shamanistic, it's calling on spirits and you know, using chance to, for protection to develop our stuff like that. So for me, meditation was something more about acquiring power, strengthening yourself. And it has done all in what I would say in in good faith. I wasn't out to manipulate other people or to harm to them, or less thinking that was, you know, this is a good way to improve myself. So I went into meditation that would help me develop my martial art progress. Okay. And then one day, I had an accident, and I think that was the best thing that happened to me. I lost my job for a while because I was bedridden, I broke my Achilles tendon, okay. And then nothing to do. And a friend told me, You know, I just came from meditation is a Buddhist meditation. It's called the passion. I said, What's that? Did you pray? And you know, I had nothing to do. I went to my vipa course, my first Vipassana course, it was organized by the group of SM Glinka Uh huh. And I went to the meditation, took a bus, and I was in crutches, my leg was bound up, right. And it was, it was a very mind blowing experience for me. Wow, so many things that I was looking for in other areas of meditation. I tested it there. And after 10 days, it's not that a miracle happened. I think my leg was already healing at the time. But after 10 days, I was no longer wearing my crutches. I just walked out. And I was happy that I was able to walk normally again. Yeah. So from there, I spiraled into what they would call the rabbit hole. Yeah.

Zach  11:56

And so at this point, you're actually not practicing anything. Christian. So was this on your family's radar? And how did they respond to it?

12:07

Okay, I didn't tell my brothers and sisters and my, especially my mom, because I knew how they would react. My wife found it a bit weird. But she said, it can't be more weird than this stuff that you're going into another shamanism. We do really weird stuff there yet. I will, unless I'm long here. No. And then I would get up. And the champ at 6am every morning, and then in the evening. 6pm. So I think that practice helped me to pave my way to dedicated practicing real passionate. So anyway, they found it weird, but not as readable as the other stuff that my wife said, Oh, come on. Okay. Just try it once. And then when they came back, she saw that, you know, like, something changed. I was more patient. I didn't raise my voice that often. So she saw improvements. So she said, Okay, so when I told her, I want to do another course, he said, Okay, okay, go, go. If it helps you then go, right. So it was my wife who supported me first, and then it was easier to explain it to my family, they just kind of tolerated. Of course, there are moments when they said, we'll come back to capitalism. You know, don't forget to pray. Don't forget Jesus, stuff like that. So I just maintain my silence, just waiting for the proper time to explain stuff to them. I'm still waiting after

Zach  13:44

someone, I'm curious for you. Was there ever a point that was uncomfortable for you like in, in letting go of Christianity? or What was your relationship? Let me ask it this way. What was your relationship to Catholicism at this point?

14:02

All right. That's a very interesting point. A few years before I encountered the passionate meditation, I was, I would say, a non practicing Catholic. I remember one evening, I was trying to summarize what capitalism was all about. And I was there, looking at the book about the Christian doctrine. And I was summarizing the whole plot about Christianity, and I said, I can't believe in this stuff anymore. It doesn't. It doesn't make sense to me. So I stopped considering myself a Catholic. And when I look at the other religions, actually, including Buddhism, I said, they have some grain of truth in them. But there's something flawed about how they present the truth. And I said, I'm not going to be I'm not going to go into any religion anymore, I said, I just can't believe the stuff that they are seeing. And then when I attended a 10 day course on their growing Cadiz group, it was so experiential. And I could experience observe and see the truth for myself. And I said, Wow, it really blew my mind. I had, I had a lot of experiences there, including a Kundalini experience, which I almost never got in my yoga and meditation practice in others, but I got it here in the grant course. And I told myself, wow, this is really mind blowing. And yeah, that was the extent of what I was practicing that time. Even after the course, actually, I didn't think of becoming Buddhist them, because I also was skeptical about two things that Greg was talking about. One was rebirth, and the other was non self. So it took me some time before I could wrap my head over those two concepts. Yeah.

Zach  16:11

So what I'm hearing is like for you personally, it was more of a transition from religion to a practice that wasn't religious, rather than moving from one religion to another religion.

16:26

Yes, I was impressed by what Glinka Ji said about the aim of this course, it wasn't convert people from one religion, or one organized religion to another organized religion. But it was the conversion was really about changing from an unhappy state to a more happy state. And that was exactly what I was experiencing. No, I lost some of my anger, my impatience. And I felt lighter after the course. Yeah. But then it opened the door. And it made me rethink about taking a look at Buddhism. At that point, I had no idea about the differences between Theravada Mahayana sutra and stuff like that. But I was curious. And I started studying and reading about Buddhism.

Zach  17:27

Yeah, that roosters really going off in the background here. And so at what point did your your family realize you're, you're serious about this? And was it more digestible to them? Because you presented it as a non religious thing? What was that? at the point where you said, you were not with your wife, but with the rest of your family, you were a bit quiet about about what you're doing. But at some point, they must realize what you're doing and that you were very much into it. So how did that go?

17:58

I think, let me tell you. Finally, funny story. One time, my family came, you know, family reunion. And my wife and my three daughters, I have three daughters, they already knew about what happened to me. And my family came over, we had lunch together. And, you know, before we start eating, it's typical for Filipino family to have a prayer. And since the lunch happened at my home, my sister requested me Can you say a prayer blessing? Haha. And then I was standing there thinking about what am I going to see?

Zach  18:40

And how right?

18:41

Yeah, so instead of the usual prayer, the Christian prayer, thanking God for the food, I started showing gratitude for the earth, for the farmers, for the people who prepared the food. And then I even asked forgiveness for the fish and the chickens. And at that point, at that point, my sister said, Hey, what are you talking about? These other variables, she cut me short. And then somebody else prayed. After that. She didn't ask me. She asked my wife and my kids. What happened to mommy, she said, and they explained to her or his is now a Buddhist or something like that. That's how they found out.

Zach  19:23

Yeah, how did that go?

19:25

I think they were too shocked at the time to react. And then when it dawned on them, well, they actually know my personality. I'm kind of free spirit. So, you know, I do things. Not really because I, I just want to rebel. No, but because I think I'm doing it right. And I think I've done a lot of things in the past. And they know better than to try to argue against me, if I think what I'm doing is right. So we just keep a respectful What should I say? relationship or distance I think Matias right now, it's a Filipino tradition that during Christmas and some other events now we go to Mass. So I go to Mass with them. I just don't pray I don't make the final course. Yeah. So I respect them. And they just keep quiet about my personal beliefs. Right? What they do see is meditation has made me a better person. So for them, okay, it's not that bad. monos less hot tempered now and stuff like that. Yeah. So I think that helped them accept what I was doing.

Zach  20:39

Right. Great. And at that point, you were practicing Vipassana meditation. But I know a little bit about your story. At some point, you had curiosity about more and actually took a trip to Myanmar. So how did that all come about?

20:54

Ah, okay. I think another good thing happened to me, which can be taken as a bad thing, actually, is doing the passion of for I don't know, more than I can't remember more than 10 years, I think. And then, somehow, I was also joining other Buddhist groups now, in their meditation.

Zach  21:18

There in the Philippines. There's other groups.

21:21

Yeah, yeah, there's Plum Village, Vietnamese em. And then there's a Japanese group, Japanese yen also, okay. And then there's a chance exam or charm. So I joined them, just because I want to be in solidarity with fellow Buddhists. I mean, the Buddhist in the Philippines are probably only 1% of the population. And out of that 1%, less than 1% is Theravada. So it's just a few 100, maybe just 1000 people. And I wanted to have a community, a Buddhist community that I had to go to, I really had no choice but to team up with, with other with other groups. So I was doing meditation with them. But basically, I was doing anapana Sati. And the passionate I mean, if I was in the Zen group, and they said, let's do this kind of technique. And it's similar to anapanasati out of respect for the tradition, I don't do the body scanning. I do anapanasati. Right. So that was what I was doing. Apparently, some people in the group and I, I don't mean to put down any group, you know, they they want, they want their members to just stick to one method, basically the gringo method, right, and questioning why I was practicing other types of meditation. And I tried to explain to them, you know, basically, I'm still doing Glinka gees method, even if I attend this other groups. Anyway, I applied for another 10 day course, with a very passionate group in the Philippines when I was turned down. Oh, because they said, I was not telling the truth about not practicing the pure green style or something like that. That would have been bad, but actually turned out to be very good for me. Because then at that point, I was free to really explore other methods, right. And basically, it means when you are talking about be passionate, there's only two groups you can go to. One is the Confederates group, the Philippine insight meditation community. There's another group now, actually, but at the time, when I was banned from the passionate, that group didn't exist yet. It's a kalyana mitta meditation center. So I said, Okay, since I no longer with the rancor group, I can, in all honesty, say that, okay, I'm free to explore other techniques, and there's no other place to go. But either Thailand or Myanmar. I said, Well, much of what I've learned is from the Burmese tradition, I might as well go to Myanmar.

Zach  24:03

Right. Hey, can I ask you, so before you got banned, there was some feeling of commitment to the actual practice. So even though you were engaging with these other groups, you were still not fully engaging any kind of different practice, right? You just kind of scale it back to just doing on a piano, right. But there was still an issue there that got you banned. But what I'm asking about is like, there was definitely a shift in internal feeling about what and how you can practice is that right? Yes. After you got banned, I mean, there's some it sounds like there's quite a shift in some kind of internal feeling like, you start to take a mental interest and actually engage in practice with, with a more of a variety is that right?

24:50

In terms of Dharma practice, I was basically sticking the going Cadiz method as a topic, attempt the courses, so I wasn't doing mantra or visualization, nothing like that. Okay, so I found it good. And I felt that I was progressing in that aspect, but the theoretical part was lacking. So I was curious about going back to the original source. And I read up on both Mahayana and Theravada teachings, and I dropped my hammer, because the fate of the Theravada felt closer to what I was practicing. And I found that, you know, there are a lot of other methods available, even in the Theravada tradition. So I was just curious why the grandfather method basically chose to stick only to sitting meditation and basically limiting itself to awareness of the body and the feelings. So I was curious about the other stuff that was in the Buddhist tradition. But I was still hampered by, you know, my affiliation with Glinka group. Because, you know, every time you apply for a new course, it asks, do you practice other meditation techniques and stuff like that? So I want them to be honest, and say, No, I'm sticking to this. Because if you say, I've practiced other meditation techniques, that can lead you to not being accepted in the course. So I, I wanted to doing Vipassana meditation and the greater this group. So I stopped doing only their technique. I forgot to mention that before my band actually went to Malaysia. I was impressed by venerable dumb avuto, the late Venerable dimapur, a Malaysian monk, who was ordained in the Thai forest tradition. In my search for original sources of Buddhism, I encountered him. And his teaching was basically concentrated in suta studies. So I was interested, and a friend of mine, Billy Tang, and his friends, they sponsored me to go to Malaysia, I got the one month visa, no, actually, I don't need the visa, I was able to stay there for one month. That was the maximum I was allowed by the Malaysian government. And I was really ordained as seminara, under venerable dama Buddha. And I don't know if the people in Ganga in the Ganga course to clap against me. And they said, Oh, you've been practicing other techniques already. And I was trying to explain to him that, you know, and the venerable Dhamma Buddha, he doesn't really teach a specific kind of method. Okay, so if you're comfortable with your practice, and I was doing grandpa style meditation where it allowed me to do that, oh, so in all honesty, when I told them, I was actually still doing, like a style method, but it still got me banned for some reason. Okay. Yeah.

Zach  28:04

That's unfortunate. But the way you're opposing it is actually it was like this event that, that you decided after that to like, open yourself up to actually doing other practices. So it ended up being in your mind a fortunate thing, which then implies, of course, that there was some positive benefits to opening yourself up. So. So you went to Malaysia, before you got banned and at least got inspired to, to consider the suitors and the Buddhist teaching and its relationship to your practice. And then you said also that you became interested in perhaps going to Myanmar? So did you end up going to Myanmar?

28:47

Yes, I ended up.

Zach  28:50

I asked that question. As if I don't know. I actually met you and me and my.

28:56

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I met Joel online. Before that. recommended me to people like you and some other guys. Yeah, I'm actually I was still hungry when I came back from Malaysia. No, obviously still looking for a teacher. So I think it was in 19 2015. I think there was a group of people who are meeting in a Buddhist center, and they said, you know, we want to hear more about Theravada. And we heard that euro Theravada guy, so I joined that group and then we we actually ended up forming the Philippine Theravada Buddhist community. Okay, a fellowship. BTB Yeah. So, the thinking was that if you cannot find a Sangha, or a Theravada group, let's let's form our own Theravada group. So I did it actually more for personal similar reasons rather than to gather members or you know, for some other reason, right? Because I felt that having my own community would be very helpful for my practice. And it was and and it was. So from there, I was compelled to take another trip for more in depth intensive practice. So I was able to get a three month religious visa from the Myanmar sea. And I was hoping to have it extended to six months or more, as already prepared to stay much longer in Myanmar, actually.

Zach  30:38

What was your specific intention with going there? Like, did you have a pretty fixed plan? How much preparation did you do? And like, what were you hoping to get out of that?

30:48

Yeah, I wanted to learn from as many teachers as possible, because I knew I couldn't stay there very long, maybe just half a month, half a year, at the most kind of hopping from one meditation center to the other. So I made preparations, and to visit as many meditation centers as as possible. Once I was in Myanmar, I discovered that actually, it was kind of frowned upon. They didn't like that, because I think if you register as a meditators, the center is supposed to take care of you and know where you're going. And if something goes wrong, Myanmar government will find fault with the center. But before I went there, I didn't know anything about that. I thought, you know, I'm, I'm a Filipina, I go there, and you know, learn from different teachers and not with that. So actually, I had a bit of a problem there. When when I went there,

Zach  31:53

that was more to do with responsibility for you as a visitor, rather than than practicing other techniques. It wasn't so much about crossing techniques, it was more about just

32:05

yeah.

Zach  32:06

Yeah, that religious visa, you need a sponsor? So maybe listeners don't know that. But yeah, when you when you get a religious visa, it's underneath a particular monastery or, or tradition, and essentially, they're responsible for you so. So to go wandering around Myanmar, but then being responsible for you is a bit, you know, a bit of a risk for them, in a sense.

32:30

Yes, yes. Yes. I felt that when I was there, they were actually surprised that they said, you need that belt. I said, Well, I didn't really know. Right. But it was all done in good faith. It worked out well, in them. They didn't mind me going around it. Yeah, as I said, it was more of the responsibility of knowing what I was going to do there. And I would not misuse my meditation visa for other purposes.

Zach  32:59

So once you told them like what you were doing, they were somewhat supportive of that, in a sense, right? As long as, as long as you told them what your plans were.

33:08

Yeah, although I felt that there was this pressure that in I was spending only because of my limited state, I was only spending about two to three weeks per meditation center, right? And there was this slide what I would say, probably a pressure but that encouragement now, this is stay longer, because if you really want to master our method, you have to stay longer than two weeks, something like that. Right? But I already had other ideas. So I wanted to try out the others. I can understand why they would want me to stay longer. Sure. Yeah, I would have done that if I the longer if I was allowed to stay longer. Right. I was gonna visa extension and getting a visa extension wasn't that easy?

33:56

No. Oh, really?

33:58

You need a Yeah, you need the center to sponsor your stuff like that. Right. And I was a new guy there. No previous record in Myanmar. And I think they were quite skeptical about you know, either sponsoring a guy I might just run off to another center or go to another touristy spot or something. Which I never did. In my three months of stay in Myanmar. Except for the first day when I visited Shwedagon. I had no time to visit touristy spots. After leaving one center, I go straight to another center.

Zach  34:39

Right and what what different traditions Did you try? Ah,

34:43

I first went to Morocco in i don't know if i pronounce this correctly, font family in something like that. Right. And I stayed there for about two weeks, I think or three weeks. I can't remember if it was about an hour I was fortunate that I was able to meet with Venerable asaba. Because most of the other mogul pictures can speak English very well. And it was important for me to have an English speaking teacher. Otherwise I would. Yeah. And then from mogo, I went to actually I stayed briefly for a while in barwa. But the venerable wasn't there.

Zach  35:30

Can I ask you about mogo? Sure. Yeah. Was that the first time you practice like officially practice something that was beyond the Goenka tradition?

35:41

Well, as I said, I went to Malaysia. And I was exposed to their meditation method there. But it was more of what I notice about the the Thai method is, in my limited experience is they're more flexible in terms of format. Right? They're not regimented as in the Burmese methods. So probably, I would say the the fourth tradition, yes, I was exposed to that. Before I went to the Moga. monastery, right, in Myanmar would have been my first stop. Outside of Oh, yeah. I actually went to Singapore for a while. And I was exposed there, briefly, to the mercy and the power tradition. Okay, but I just, I'm just, you know, when during the day and then left again, the same day, so I didn't attend any long retreat.

Zach  36:44

Right. I'm curious to what on the inside, like, in your mind and your experience with like, having done How long did you do the blanket method?

36:52

I started I think 2006. And I went to Malaysia. 2016. And then I went to Yangon. 2017.

Zach  37:05

Right, so it was about 10 years. Is that right? In, in the tradition? Roughly. Right. And so yeah, so what was your actual, like? What was the phenomenon? Like? What was the actual experience of starting to actually practice other techniques? What was that? Like? I mean, I mean, one, there's just perhaps an attachment to a particular style, and then letting go of that, but what was the actual? What was the feeling? What was, you know, you have a choice to make there, too, is you're trying something else to kind of No, no, I'll go back to what I'm doing or Yes, I need to keep going forward. So what was the actual internal experience there?

37:46

Okay, I will have to speak in terms of hindsight. I think after my stay in Myanmar, I felt very grateful for the Glinka group, because if I went there fresh, I think I would have had a harder time learning meditation in Myanmar.

Zach  38:06

Right. What in particular, do you think?

38:10

Well, the discipline of sitting right, in the Glencoe method, we sit for one hour during group practice, and it's up to you how much longer you can go. So I already had that. And I was already used to meditating twice a day, once in the morning, and then once before going to bed. So I had all the foundation already laid out for me. And I think in the Philippines at the time, I was probably one of the guys who took the most number of banker courses in the country. So I was taking courses almost, probably two, three times a year, so yeah, so definitely the foundation for me. So when I went to mogo, it wasn't that difficult. For me. The adjustment was more in terms of cultural.

Zach  38:59

Right.

39:00

Yeah. And the lectures, I was lucky that during the lectures, and I just sat there and meditated, I could not understand Burmese but in the evening, Venerable asaba would give me a talk. There was one other foreigner there, he was a Korean guy. He later ordained under the Mughal tradition. So there were only two of us. So we had his full attention. We could ask as many questions as the time allowed. So I was happy with the monastery in Moga. The techniques are startingly they're not so different. In a way it was easy for me to adjust my my practice you know, I went there in there with an open mind. So yeah, after a few days, I got the hang of it. So it wasn't really that difficult adjusting my my technique.

Zach  39:57

Where did you go from mogo

39:59

from Got, I tried to go to about one, because that was a little closer.

Zach  40:07

Right? We've had a few, we've had a few podcasts with mogul practitioners and a little bit from Alibaba side as well.

40:15

Yeah, I stayed there for only three days, I think the most meaningful experience for me there was going out on alms round and then helping the sick, they have a hospital there, cleaning up after them, moving them around stuff like that, right? And there was more there, every day somebody would be that person would be there. So I'd go there meditate a bit. So that was it. I attended their meditation session in the evening. But I found out that there isn't a particular you know, ababwa method. So I said, Okay, I'll come back to this place. After I've done the other centers, I was expecting that my visa would be extended, but it didn't happen. When I came back to the Philippines, I've told them that, you know, go to the abattoir, even if they don't have any particular meditation method, not like you know, mahasi right. But I said, this is where you can really test if your meditation is working or not. Just imagine cleaning up after an old person who has soiled his bed now. move them around, see that people? So this will open your mind and your heart and come honest, if you're hiding behind your meditation, are you really using it to improve yourself and deal with even the nasty stuff in life?

Zach  41:45

Right, it's about practice is more about it's it's a it's awareness. For sure. It's awareness while serving and continuing to serve. And it's a different scale of practice. It's not about sitting on the cushion, so much. So yeah, so yeah, it's actually that is the practice in a sense is caring for people and and what we learn about life and about about the Dhamma, we see the Dhamma through these engagements.

42:13

Yeah. And and another thing in the Kabbalah center is that you get to meet other people, other volunteers from other countries, and also practice to be able to adjust to them, harmonize your expectations work as a team. So yeah, yeah, it's good preparation for going back to your daily life, how you interact with other people.

Zach  42:40

And where did you go after dibala? Ah,

42:44

I was always curious about metta meditation, because I felt when I was in the grantor group, I felt that, you know, this is one aspect that seems to be missing, for me personally. So this is not a statement to judge the whole group. For me, I felt that I wasn't doing enough metta meditation. So I looked up in the internet before going to Myanmar, to see which group was teaching metta. And I discovered that there's a center in Yangon, it's Chiang Mai. It's, it's a branch of mercy, right? So I went there. And I spent three weeks there under Venerable sobhita. The first two weeks, I was doing metta, only metta meditation, and then that's what I told them. I said, I just wanted to make that the meditation for two weeks then, and then I'm off. But somehow I thought that, okay, I'm already here. I might as well spend one more week practicing, they're learning. They're the master method. So I spent another week and they were happy about me extending and they, you know, kind of wanted to stay longer. You know, I already had talked to another center, and I said I was going that way. So, yeah, I I did the metta meditation, and it was, it was very interesting. I think I learned a lot about the Burmese attitude about life. Yeah. How they look at things. Yeah, it was a totally different experience. What was different here was that I was used to sitting meditation, because of the green car method. The basically the only formal instructions are revolve around sitting meditation, but in Chiangmai, they have a lot of moving meditation, walking, meditation, standing meditation. And I, I kind of underestimated the value of this when I was with a group, but when I learned this from the master group, I suddenly realized that wow, this is a valuable experience. And yeah, I learned a lot about that. walking slowly and observing how how we move

Zach  45:00

Great, so the mug that wasn't there, either. So that was your first experience with walking meditation.

45:07

In Mogok, we did mostly sitting meditation. Now I'm reminded about a monk I saw. There was this young monk. And by tradition, they sit in front, so we can always see them in front of us when we meditate. And in the Mogok tradition we have one hour of sitting. And then we have a break. And the walking meditation is supposed to be done on your own. So you can go to the rooftop and walk around, and then come back for another one hour of sitting. So I saw this young monk. I didn't pay much attention to him at first, because I was focusing on my own practice. But after a few days, I noticed when I entered the room, he's already sitting there. When I leave for a break, or for the one hour walking meditation, come back, he's still sitting there! And then when we do another break, and come back, he's still sitting there! So he's been sitting there for more than about five hours! And then one time I decided I won't go out first with the others, I'll see what this monk is gonna do. And I stayed in the meditation hall for a bit, observing if he's taking a break or not, and he was just sitting there. So I was just assuming that this monk is not moving for five hours! And it's so inspiring to see monks like that. So unfortunately, I was not able to talk to him because he was not from that center. I don't know if he was ordained under the Mogok tradition. I wanted to find out where he learned this technique. But he  didn't speak English and I didn't speak Burmese, and we had limited contact. So that was etched in my memory, that young monk sitting for five hours in the meditation hall.

Zach  47:04

Yeah, that that's different than then being in other countries, right. When you're in a predominantly Buddhist country, like Sri Lanka, or Myanmar or Thailand, you you see the monastics so that was, let me say it this way. How was that like? The what was the difference between being outside of a Buddhist country practicing Theravada Buddhism versus being in a country? That's, that's predominantly theravadan, Buddhist?

47:32

You know, when I was still a Catholic, I could see, I encountered a lot of religious people. Many of them actually were female monastics, sisters, and then this level of harm and peace in them. That's so outwardly, should I say, and if I just change their robes, I see the same quality of peace and calmness of these people. Whether in a Catholic place or in Buddhist community, I think. I think the the place where I went, the places I went to in Myanmar, were, I don't know how typical they are of the Myanmar society as a whole. Right, right. Yeah. So I would think that they like the Catholic Retreat Center is here now. It's totally different when you step out of the churches. Now, you see all kinds of people already know. The shop was more of cultural actually. But in terms of the reverence, the calmness, I think I encountered this before in other religious settings. But it looks different in a Buddhist setting, of course, because now my my mind and my heart is, you know, directed towards the Buddha Dharma.

Zach  49:04

Right.

49:05

What I would say is that, actually, it surprised me that the Burmese setting isn't as quiet as I thought it would be. comparing it with the forest mount monastery of venerable Dharma Buddha in Malaysia right now. Yeah. I could hear for example, in the mobile Center, the other temples, chanting, so you have chanting over the loudspeakers right, early morning. I think that was around 430. And then a few seconds later, you can hear the dogs howling in unison as if they're also chanting so just kind of weird that you know, I thought this place would be quiet but you know, when everyone wakes up and they start chanting, it's it makes quite bad noise. Yeah, but you know, I'm I am Buddhists, I can appreciate that the chance I don't think it has some noise pollution. But it is actually quite loud now, I mean, loudspeakers I mean, yeah. It did make it a bigger sound. Yeah.

Zach  50:13

Yeah. And then, so you're, you're generally a practicing metta for a couple of weeks. And then you tried the mahasi method, including walking meditation for a week. Is that right? And then right, then yeah, and then what happened from there?

50:31

I took my leave. It was very amicable. And I was very grateful to not just to sobhita doll, but to the whole staff there. It was a very nice place. And I think Tony, Tony also went there to meditate. So yeah, from there, I thought of going to something that would be, in my mind, quite intensive. So I went to Cuba is Zulu monastery. And I met Laura Seto. And when I reached a place, actually, I got worried because they said, Oh, you have a letter? I said, Yes, I communicated with the CFO a few months ago, and he accepted me. And they said, When did you come? And I said, Oh, more than a month ago, I said, Oh, you're supposed to come here earlier. And then I noticed that there must be something here some problem with the government regulations or something. Right? The problem was that who are at cya wasn't at the, at the monastery at the time. Okay. So somebody called him up, and I thought that's going to be turned away. And there was one American meditator there. And I think she helped, they helped them to understand my situation. And we were talking back and forth for a few times, and then finally, McVeigh said, okay, you can stay. So I was quite relieved and happy that I could stay

52:05

in monasteries, and I've experienced a while. I don't think anything could have prepared me for that.

Zach  52:14

Sorry, my, what? You said this is going to be more intense. So what's that all about?

52:21

Okay, it has to be experienced to be understood. You know, it's it is very different from what you read, but to get an idea. So the method was developed by Sunil Fado.

Zach  52:33

Okay. That's why I was running. This is as soon as one method then.

52:36

Yes. The simple method. Yeah. Well, he's supposed to be an Iran socc disciple. No. So interesting. He was a former farmer. And much of the much of what you practice in meditation was self taught to develop it after learning the basic stuff from some teachers. And then he developed it on his own. So maybe,

Zach  53:00

I think it was reading lady side, or actually, I read his biography. I think that's what it said.

53:06

I think he read about it or heard about it. I don't know if he was a direct disciple of Lady say about the method he developed, or that was what was being taught at the center right now is that we have two hours sitting and in depth two hours, the first part is spent on hard fast breathing. So that part was quite difficult for me in the beginning. How long

Zach  53:34

was that? How long do you do that for?

53:37

One hour?

Zach  53:38

One hour of hard breathing? Wow. Okay.

53:41

Yeah. At first, I had a hard time there. But then when I got the hang of it, I found out that, you know, it does energize me. And it thus helped me focus more later on. And then the tactic various after the one hour part breathing, kind of just allow your breath to normalize and then you let go of looking at the breath and start observing sensation in the body. So the focus is more on watching strong sensations in the body. Usually, it's the most painful part of the body and watching it arise and stay and if you can, if it will go away then, you know, observe it going away. So yeah, it was done without sitting on a cushion. The other centers they provided us with mats

Zach  54:38

so you're right on the floor.

54:41

roadmap, that's about okay. Up to get your butt dirty. But even without even the the small map, you could feel the hard floor underneath. Yeah. So that was quite an experience for me because I have always sat on a Question so that my knees are always lower than my hips. I think that's a good meditation meditation position for me. But in saloon, you know, I had to adjust my position. And the funny thing was that after a while, after several minutes, I feel like moving. And they strongly, strongly encourage us not to move. But you know, sometimes I do move. And actually the pain gets worse when when I move in saloon, there's a monk who goes around, I think something like, you know, in a Zen monastery, there's there's one more was around supervising meditators, in saloon, the moment they start moving, you know, then there's this voice that comes from behind us, you don't stop, Don't move, don't stop meditating. Something like that. Yeah. So, of course, in the beginning of first few days, I wasn't able to sleep for two hours straight. But after about 10 days, I was able to, you know, sleep two hours. And yeah, I was able to reach some, a deeper state of Samadhi when I was there. I had, yeah, I had good experiences there in terms of an app. And each and especially not apart, you know, sitting for two hours, with so much pain. And I tried all sorts of tricks that I learned and based on my experience, in the other methods, and none of them actually work. We're hoping didn't work. Going back to the breath didn't work. The pain was always there. pain, pain, pain, pain, pain. And then I don't know, one, one time we just clicked. But you know, I was feeling so much pain, and then suddenly, something disappeared. And I said, No, the pain is still there. But, you know, that feeling part of me was, yeah, there's pain, but I don't know how to explain it. I can experience the pain but because I was, I was no longer there. This this I, uh huh. It's just like, I was just observing the pain. And I said, as it was, and, you know, I was able to, to do the two hours just observing the pain. The pain didn't really go away. It was still intensive, but it wasn't affecting me as much anymore. Yeah. So that was a very valuable experience for me.

Zach  57:37

Okay. Yeah. Okay, so, so learn. And then what's next?

57:44

Ah, from saloon, I purposely wanted to try out another kind of laid back from, from what I've read, laid back kind of meditation. And that's where I met you. I went straight woman.

Zach  57:54

monastery? Is that the reputation? It's the laid back technique?

57:59

Well, from what I gather, it's kind of unstructured. And instead of this long, strong Samadhi it's more of the sappy part.

Zach  58:10

Right? Especially compared to what you just come from.

58:15

Yeah. And when I was there, with the Junya said that was, you know, he said, I think it was a great teacher, he explained many things to me. And I kind of liked the way he stressed that it's not so much about postures, it's not so much about sitting long. It's more about observing your mind and knowing what's going on there. And then, you know, it kind of puts the icing on the cake. Now, learning all about the methods because in the other methods, you tend to become too focused on body sensations or on the breath, but how does this affect your mind? In trailmen, I appreciated how one can be aware of the breath or body sensation and still observe what is happening in the mind. Because for example, I can be sitting for a long time not moving, just tolerating the pain, but is that developing my mind, what kind of mind that my developing Am I becoming more resilient? Or am I just hard getting my mind right, you know, so, yeah, buddy may may be able to tolerate the pain, one hour, two hours of sitting, but effect is that without knowing it, one is already also hard than the mind and when one has one part in the mind, the heart and the personality also becomes hard. So again, without naming any groups, sometimes I look at some senior meditators who don't practice enough metta and who don't observe the mind? Enough deeply enough? Yeah, they can sit for long. But somehow, they, they've hardened their personality. They're, they're less cheerful. They're too serious about their practice. They're too serious about themselves. And they say there's something missing about their practice. And I'm very grateful to share them in for you know, giving this technique where I can observe my mind.

Zach  1:00:35

Right, and then, to continue the diamond tour, what came after swayman

1:00:41

Ah, okay, the last stop

Zach  1:00:44

the grand diamond tour.

1:00:46

Yeah. Because I came from the Green Card tradition, right. Which, which actually leave us with stitching, the passion meditation in the tradition of, say a Jew back in? Uh huh. So, where else would I go back to the international meditation center? IMC? Great. Yeah. So I went there took a 10 day course. And the teacher there a lay man, I think, yeah, he was the only lead teacher I had in Burma in my tour. No, no, no, no. The one in Tarawa was a lay person, right. But yeah, I didn't think too long there. But anyway, say ijebu kinzel was the last living student of say it back in. So he still remembers what set you back in was teaching and how he taught it. Right. And I'm very grateful for him. The funny thing was that when I was at the center, some Burmese people greeted me. And I recognized them as the same guys. I was sitting beside with in the Mogok center. Okay, so, yeah, so apparently, there's no such thing as if you practice other styles, you cannot come here to the center. I am seeing them. So that was one thing that puzzled me again about the Ganga group. So here in Burma, it's taken for granted that the people who go to the centers, they, you know, they cross stream, so so to speak, they go around different centers. There were a few differences actually. Not major differences between the IMC should I sit method and what I learned in the blank ago, like the counting of the breath. See, it told me that, you know, if you have a hard time focusing, you can count your breath. In the Glencoe method, they said, No, you're not supposed to count the breath. So finally, and then, on the fourth day of the 10 day retreat, in the Glencoe method, they have what is called the additon sitting meditation where you sit for more than an hour and you try not to move. It is strongly strongly encouraged in that tradition, where I learned it from not to move, but in the IMC. It's way more flexible. If you have to move you move. Okay. But of course, they say, try to sit without moving. But a student asked, I can't I can't move. Okay, then you move. Just as simple as that. There's no strong encouragement to say not, don't move, just focus on your breath, stuff like that. They give you Trixie McGregor method how to stand at the time, but not like that in the IMC.

Zach  1:03:42

Right.

1:03:43

So yeah, it was fun. Again, the teacher actually mentioned some some things to me, that I just shared here. He said, you know, those meditators who come here to practice the body scanning, they have a hard time doing the scanning, because they're used to observing strong sensations only. So they find it harder to catch the subtler sensations, the ones that are below the surface or underneath the strong sensations. That's what he said. So for that, I am very grateful for Sergio Baggins method, learning how to catch an observe even the very subtle sensations. Yeah, because for example, in other methods where there are very, very strong sensations, your mind tends to gravitate towards just observing those. Yeah.

Zach  1:04:39

All right. So the the grand Dhamma tour of Myanmar wraps up, and then you head back to the Philippines or so right?

1:04:48

Yeah, I wanted to stay longer, but I couldn't find a sponsor. Apparently you need a sponsor, so I wasn't able to go back to abattoir unfortunately. So I had to Go back after IMC.

Zach  1:05:03

Right? What was that you brought back? What did you do with all this experience knowledge perspective? Like?

1:05:11

How did that change you? And

Zach  1:05:12

then how to do? You're already involved in some groups like what was your intention as far as sharing that with people? And then what shape did that take?

1:05:21

Well, of course, I first shared my experiences with my own group, the Philippine Theravada, Buddhist fellowship. And I encouraged them to, to go to BMR. They said, Let's go to Myanmar together, this this guy Jolla, and he can help us organize up to, well, nothing has happened about that yet. But we're still open to doing that in the future. So I went to another group, the Philosophical Society of the Philippines. I told them, I can share my experiences with you guys. And yeah, they allowed me to be a guest speaker, what other groups I went to, I went to as many groups as as possible. And then I posted on Facebook, three groups with pictures, encouraging people to, you know, pick up meditation, and if they can go to Myanmar, do the same thing. I tried to contact other Filipinos also. But you know, there are very, very few Filipinos who have been to Myanmar to meditate, I can probably only a handful of us who have been to Myanmar, I think it would be good if more Filipinos would be able to pick up meditation and the need to go abroad. They can always go to Myanmar, but not just Myanmar, maybe Thailand and some other countries.

Zach  1:06:45

Right? Well, in that sense, you're the man, you're the one with the experience, right? You're the person. You have direct experience with these other traditions and techniques. And in that sense, are you a link for people? Like do you make yourself available for people to seeking that kind of information?

1:07:06

Well, we used to have regular weekly, actually, weekly sessions, meditation sessions, a bit of Dharma sharing, now, we're happy if we can already get 10 participants. And actually, I look at the other meditation groups, they have if they can get 25 to 30 regular attendees in their meditation session, right? That's how the participation is in the Philippines. It's a very strong, even the attendees in my group, not all of them are Buddhist, actually, we will open to all all kinds of people, atheists, non Buddhists, there's no issue there. Right? They can always come and go, I don't think of them as members, I think of them worth up in this. But for the past six or seven months, we have been been holding sessions because of this COVID. Technically, the, the city Metro Manila is still under quarantine. So we have travel bans, travel restrictions, they go to the stores or shop, or go to the market if they have a quarantine pass. So we are I have problems with my zoo. So many people now are working at home. So the internet here is kind of choppy at times. So instead of organizing my own virtual sessions, I just share other links. I miss group, I link her up and down their meditation groups, they have better internet connection.

Zach  1:08:42

Okay. What about on a personal level, like this experience of going to Myanmar? How is it shaped your own understanding your practice your overall view of the path? Like what was that? What did you bring home for yourself?

1:08:58

Ah, I think really deepened my commitment to the Dharma. There was a time when I was telling my friends know, the martial arts that, you know, this part of meditation has helped me a lot. But it did something bad to my martial art practice. I'm not so involved in it anymore, stuff like that. But just recently, maybe because of the COVID, then I have more time in my hands. I've been going back to martial arts practice, and I have friends who have you know, just to keep fit. They do martial arts practice. And I do my martial arts. Now. I would say with more equanimity. And the weird thing is, I'm beginning to do my martial arts with more passion. But without the anger without striving to be violent, you know? Yeah, meditation has helped me put more zest in other things in my life. Not directly connected. Buddhism, even in my martial lights, I just changed my perspective. The perspective has become more meaningful, more compassionate. I used to sit one hour in the morning, one hour in the evening. And for me, that was meditation, that was a good meditation practice. But after coming back from Myanmar, especially after learning from Sri, I mean, it can be one hour, it can be 45 minutes, it can be any time of the day. And for me, that would be good meditation. Now, instead of limiting it to one hour in the morning, one hour in the evening, so I can practice meditation continuously. When driving the car, I can practice meditation when I'm washing dishes, I can practice meditation. Uh huh. Yeah. And I'm beginning to see more about, see more of the defilements of my mind. And you know, it's good. Because when someone sits in meditation, it can become a kind of a shield, it can be a kind of cover. But if you cannot meditate, with your eyes open, doing daily chores, I feel that, that meditation is shallow. It's so compartmentalized, meditation has to be integrated into everyday living. I'm still thinking of time when you know, there's a Theravada center in the Philippines, there is not yet the environment given by a meditation center or a monastery is so different from a part time yoga club or something really, really different. So yeah, my head is sometimes filled with dreams about, you know, putting up a center with friends, and we can have Brits there. Invite teachers from other countries probably make them stay here. And then it will be a center where we can organize trips going to Burma, India, Thailand, Sri Lanka, anywhere there's Dharma available. Of course, there's also us many people who do meditation here have been to the US. Yeah, I follow up on what's happening in the western Buddhist communities. Haha. But I feel that they don't quite understand the Filipino culture. And that is why I also set up the PDF instead of affiliating myself with an international group not because who knows the Filipino mindset more than Filipino? And right, yeah, so PT def will be more flexible, more Philippine oriented. That's my vision for for the group. Yeah.

Zach  1:12:59

So you went to Miramar and and tried a bunch of different techniques. And it doesn't sound necessary that you were going there to try to just pick one and choose the best one. So what's your attitude overall towards like technique as far as like, one technique or the experience wasn't so much about trying to find and choose the best one. So how is having tried several techniques, it affected your overall view of technique in general?

1:13:25

Okay, I tell people that I've shared my experience in their movies. There's no single technique that is the best for a person. I think the best way to do it is to keep an open mind experiment. And then, as much as possible, try to get interested in studying the past, because in the past, one can see how the Buddha and his disciples did their practice. So even in the sutras, there were different people who were attracted to mobile Liana to sariputta. Right, right. So, you know, different temperaments are attracted to different kinds of features and different kinds of methods. I wouldn't even rule out visualization, because even the suitors, the Buddha gave a golden lotus to one disciple, right? Who could have made a death meditation, for example. So there isn't a single best technique. So I think that this is the most valuable insight I can share to my friends, not to limit themselves to only one technique not to buy in this idea that there is a single, pure, pristine technique. No, all teachers are teaching their version of their dharma. And the complete instructions are not found in one tradition, but in the suit as basically. So in my group, I encourage people to study this class also. Personally, my practice would involve the first part of practice This would involve heart breathing. I think I appreciate the depth from the pseudo method. Uh huh.

Zach  1:15:05

You kept that from soon, right?

1:15:07

I kept that. But I don't do it for an hour. Otherwise, I spent only basically one our regular. Sometimes I don't pay myself, right. But usually, I have a timer. So I know when, when I, uh, I neglected to say this now, I'm no longer banned in the green cup tradition. I was quite open to them. I told them I went to Burma. I studied technical data. And surprisingly, they they accepted my application early this year, just before the COVID epidemic broke out. So I was in the green car course, sometime this February. And then on the 10th day, just before the course ended, we had an emergency meeting and all the students were told that we had to go home, because there was a lockdown in Manila. So yeah, it was it. So now I still join their virtual classes online. Okay, so I see. No problem. When I'm with the grantor group, I respect the tradition, I only do the greenco method. When I practice by myself, I incorporate what I need to do. You know, based on how I need to develop my mind, sometimes I even do death meditation from the Thai forest tradition. Yeah, stuff like that. So I'm very grateful for all these practices.

Zach  1:16:31

Well, we're grateful to have you share the story with us, man. It's been a pleasure to have you on here.

1:16:37

Thank you for inviting me here. I hope more Filipinos will be inspired to go to Myanmar and to learn meditation there from the masters

Zach  1:16:46

of the Tibetan center idea comes to fruition.

1:16:50

Ah, I talked with Tony about this years ago. Maybe it's time to discuss this again with him.

Zach  1:16:58

sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu,

1:17:00

Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu

Host  1:17:10

one of the beautiful things about Burmese monasteries is that everyone can practice selfless giving. I've seen poor families give just one spoonful of rice to a communal alms bowl. And I've seen still poor families wake up at four o'clock in the morning to collect flowers and offer at the Buddhist shrine. As our Insight Myanmar podcast runs on the power of donation, we also greatly appreciate any amount of support to keep our engine going, like the morning arms of rice or flowers. If you'd like to give a monthly donation through Patreon, that continued support will allow us to continue making these episodes available to you. If even a small fraction of our listeners donated the equivalent of a cup of coffee as a monthly pledge, we could be funded well into the future. If your income is less stable, we greatly appreciate one time donations as well. If you would like to join in our mission to share the Dhamma from the cold and land more widely. 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If you are interested, you can subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or wherever else you get your podcasts. Also, please check out our website for a list of our complete episodes including additional text videos and other information at www dot Insight myanmar.org that's Insight Myanmar one word AI n si gh t m YA and M AR. If you cannot find our feed on your podcast player, please let us know and we will ensure that it can be offered there. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going make a POST request specific questions and join in our discussions on the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You are also most welcome to follow our Facebook and Instagram accounts by the same name of Insight Myanmar. And if you're not on Facebook, you can also message us directly at Burma dhamma@gmail.com that's b u r Ma, tha mma@gmail.com. And we're also active on dama wheel. If you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that forum here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would also like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible, especially our two sound engineers, Martin combs and darnay. There's of course Zack Hessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey. helps with editing. Drago spend DITA and Andre Francois produce original artwork and a special Mongolian volunteer who was asked to remain anonymous does our social media templates. We'd also like to thank everyone who assisted us in arranging for the guests we have interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves for agreeing to come and share such powerful personal stories. Finally, we are immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We also remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and not necessarily reflective of the host or other podcast contributors. Please also note, as we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show there's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us. This recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes video, audio written transcripts and excerpts of any episodes. It is also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we are very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. As you know our podcasts are 100% listener supported. We welcome your contribution in any amount, denomination and transfer method you may give via patreon@patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar via paypal@paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar or by credit card by going to Insight myanmar.org slash donation. In all cases that's Insight Myanmar one word I N si gh T, NY and Mar if you'd like to give especially to support our new run of Coronavirus episodes, please go on the GoFundMe site and search Insight Myanmar to find our campaign. If you are in Myanmar and would like to get a cash donation, please feel free to get in touch with us. Thanks and see you next show.