Transcript: Episode 29: Racial Equity Training in the Vipassana organization of S.N. Goenka
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Clyde Ford, which appeared on January 5, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
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Clyde Ford 00:57
La da da da da da, da, da da da, da, da da, da, da that is
Host 01:35
I'm delighted to be talking with Clyde Ford today. In this the fourth episode in our series, the intersection of drama and race. collide is of a passionate meditator in the tradition of sn Goenka, an anti racism anti bias consultant. While Clyde typically gives training in the corporate world, he recently led a training on these issues at amakusa of a passionate center in the Glinka tradition in Washington State. Today's discussion will focus on that training session, and also more generally explore how the Buddhist teachings can help to inform our understanding of social justice. I hope that today's discussion, as well as the overall series can be a platform for continued conversations that examine entrenched protocols, practices and attitudes within the passionate and mindfulness communities. I should note that we're working on a long form interview with Clyde scheduled for later this year, in which we'll focus on his full biography and spiritual journey. At the moment, Insight Myanmar podcast has a backlog of inspiring guests to interview, each of which takes time to prepare for, but we felt that the immediacy of this particular subject matter warranted an early discussion. So we made space to have this talk now. So in Clyde's case, we'll be getting to for the price of one. There's just so much to explore and Clyde's rich and varied background, besides being a highly sought after trainer on racial justice. He's a software engineer, chiropractor, psychotherapist and environmentalist, a 12, time award winning author, and currently a National Endowment for the Arts film. Oh, and he's also been featured on Oprah and NPR, among other shows, and these are just some of the highlights. I also want to let listeners know that several of the passionate teachers from within the tradition of sn Goenka have helped us prepare for this interview by sending along their thoughts and suggestions. These assisted in shaping some of these questions and lines of inquiry for our esteemed guests today. Like all organizations and individuals that are being called on to reflect on racism this year, this tradition has been undergoing an internal process engaging issues of inclusivity and institutional racism, with dedicated senior committees, student and teacher dialogue groups and individual reflection. Part of that process is the main focus of today's interview. That is the training session the Clyde lead at dhammakaya. And with that, let's get to our guest. I'm so pleased to welcome Clyde forward to the show. Clyde, thanks for being here. Insight Myanmar is indeed fortunate to have someone with your experience awareness and skill set, willing to come on and help us navigate through these challenging issues.
Clyde Ford 04:09
Thank you, Joe, and thank you for making the commitment to do this series. I think it's such a valuable contribution to all of the work that's going on today in the name of social justice, racial equity, and inclusivity.
Host 04:25
Yeah, thank you. I'm really looking forward to getting into what follows. And before we jump into the meat of your interview in this training at amakusa, I like to take a step back and ask a couple of personal questions pertaining to your spiritual journey. Sure. Would you mind sharing what led you to becoming a student in this tradition?
Clyde Ford 04:44
Well, I think this short of it is I had spent all over two decades in and around the satchidananda. ashram is very involved in Hindu meditative practice. But in my both my professional life as a chiropractor and psycho therapist, I was really aware of the body's role in emotional and psychological healing. And it's not a very long jump to recognize that Vipassana was a spiritual practice that had at its core, the body's role in emotional and spiritual development. And so making that transition was really easy for me, because many of the practices that we were actually doing during our sessions of the partner, were very similar to what I had discovered, was working for the client population that I was serving.
Host 05:36
Right? Yeah, I can definitely see that connection and transition. And I would imagine you've benefited from this meditation practice for passionate as you stayed with it for some time, can you share some of the impact it's had on your life? You know,
Clyde Ford 05:51
it's a very interesting thing to look out from the practice. And I can say, I think most honestly, that people reflect on me, and I see through their eyes, what the passion may have contributed, in my life. And, and I, one of the things I hear, and I certainly feel is this whole sense of being able to work in the world with a certain level of non attachment. If anything, that's probably the biggest thing that the passion has allowed me to do is to really get what that means to be aware of what's going on both in my body and in the world, but not to be attached to whether I'm happy about what's taking place in my body, or in the world, but still continue to do the work, both in terms of my spiritual practice, and whatever I'm called to do in the outside world, whether that's working with personal healing, or social and community healing, as well, too, for passionate has added that piece of being able to do whatever it is one is called to do with a certain level of non attachment, which doesn't mean disengagement. It simply means not being attached to a particular outcome. Yeah,
Host 07:07
well said, Well said. And I know you'll be touching on this more during our interview. But I'm wondering if you can describe a little about how, if at all, your own personal meditation practice has informed your overall views on race and privilege?
Clyde Ford 07:22
Yeah, that's a great question. And I think the you know, the biggest thing there again, is, it's given me the opportunity to look at issues, both personally, socially, as an African American, without the same level of attachment that one might have, without a spiritual tradition and meditative practice. And that has been just essential. Because I would say, before I got involved with this kind of practice, I certainly had and experienced a level of anger about the existence of racism in the society, the prevalence of systemic racism, the historical aspects of that. And all of those things, I think, are important. But to be able to approach those, and to be able to talk about them, to be able to reflect on them within myself and to engage others with those issues in a with a degree of non attachment, which again, doesn't mean disengagement is really, really important. And that's been one of the biggest things that my spiritual practice has brought to my understanding of both the personal and social impact of race and the issues we're dealing with today, in terms of anti racism training, as well.
Host 08:42
That's really powerful. I'd like to turn our attention to the training itself that you lead. How did you come to be invited to de macoun Joe to lead the session there? Was it a surprise that this came about?
Clyde Ford 08:54
Yes. And no, I one of my good friends in Seattle, a longtime, passionate practitioner, he and I, David and I had sat together for a number of years. Sometimes it was just the two of us sitting together. David was aware of some of the work I was doing in the corporate world, he spoke to the inclusivity group at dama kinja. And really, it was David introducing me to the group and some of the people who were involved with the group that led to them asking me what I consider to do a training at Tom akun show because the the leadership, the inclusivity group there, we're really trying to address some of these issues and thought that they might benefit from getting some outside help. And so I was really pleased. And obviously, it was the kind of opportunity to be of service that one doesn't turn down.
Host 09:49
Right. Sure. So with this invitation come more from like grassroots lower like, say like beginning to mid range meditators who are interested in bringing the train Honor, was it more of like top down of like management and teachers that wanted to do an overall protocol and policy shift culture change?
Clyde Ford 10:09
I think in a sense, it's both what happened is I've David has been around, Don mckuen do for years and is in senior management there. But the the actual invitation was extended to the, through the head of the inclusivity group. And, you know, she's been involved, probably not as long as David, with the community. And within the inclusivity group, where teachers were the the folks who run amakusa, some of the folks who are also involved in some of the other centers, both on the west coast, and I understand maybe even some joined us from other locations as well, too, because it was an online training. So really, I think the energy, the impetus came from the work that was already being done at many different levels. And then the opportunity was presented through my good friend who's been involved with dama Puja, and who knew the work I was doing.
Host 11:06
Right, right. And in terms of the participants, I'm curious about the numbers. And also like, if it was mainly teachers, or if it was actually limited to teachers, or if it was older students, or how they went about selecting who would be allowed to come if it was entirely participatory, or if there were people that were kind of nudged into, into wanting to attend?
Clyde Ford 11:25
Yeah, so it's my understanding that it was totally open to anyone who is involved with a passionate practice. There were teachers, there were beginning students, there were old students, there were, as I remember, there, were somewhere between 50 and 60. Participants, as would be expected, we started with a period of sitting, which was just a wonderful way to, to begin a session like this. Sure. And my commitment to the folks who put this on was, I would do this only for Donna as a form of payment that whatever folks felt they receive benefit from, that's the only payment that I would expect or even think about in terms of doing this training.
Host 12:16
And why was that important to you to set those? From what I understand you're a corporate trainer, and very high demand, and you're then moving to lead this training in this way. Why was that important to to set those guidelines about before before the training of how you would be compensated,
Clyde Ford 12:33
because that's the tradition that I come from, as a passionate practitioner. Every class I've sat has always been a class based on Donna, I've contributed based on what I felt I was able to contribute and what I got from it, and I just couldn't see any other way to do to be of service to this community. I think it's simply to respect the tradition. But also it just relieved for me a sense of Do I have to negotiate for rates, all the things I do in a corporate world just weren't in play? And that meant that we could focus on what was, you know, at issue here? Because I wasn't concerned, you know, are, you know, are they offering me as much as I feel I deserve in the corporate world? Or am I giving them based on what they're offering him and all of the issues around money were taken off the table by establishing this on $1 basis as we do at all of the the retreats. And that just was great. I mean, that's just really shifted everything to the work that could be done, as opposed to any concerns, issues, attachments to the finances of that.
Host 13:42
Right, right. Yeah. Wonderful. So let's get in a little bit to what the training was. Next question, please excuse a bit of a short preamble to set the stage for those listeners who I want to make sure with us here through these issues. If we go back into the Buddha's life, he taught many things in ancient India. But here in the West and contemporary times, the primary emphasis from these teachings has been primarily on the formal meditation practice. These days, many of us are trying to figure out this appropriate balance between what are formal practice on the one hand and engaging with the affairs of the world on the other. This is nothing new from what spiritual practitioners have done through the ages. Of course, there's no guidebook for any of this and so it's played out in different ways in different places. From my background, I know that within the Burmese monkhood over the centuries, some monasteries have argued for a greater role in social causes and concerns. While others have maintained the world outside the walls was really not part of their mission. In the United States, some retreat centers actively combined formal meditation with involvement in social issues, while others are more in line with the phrase render unto Caesar and there's a distinct separation between church and state as a word. So in your training Clyde, I see that at one point you noted quote, a lot History exists of dama students using the passion to aid them in their work in social and racial justice and quote, I was quite intrigued myself when I saw this. And can you give our listeners an example or two that illustrates this?
Clyde Ford 15:13
Yes. And if I could, you know, I'd even like to go back to the stories of the Buddha. Because that's where I start. I mean, with the mythology there, and I think it's, they're lovely stories. And if we remember, I mean, the young man had grown up inside a walled castle, but refused to stay in that walled castle, and went outside in the world when his father tried to eliminate from his huge death. And yet he saw people dying. And he said, What is that? He went out into the world, and he saw people who were poor. What is that? And so I think that deep within the teachings of Buddha Buddhist tradition, is this sense that, yes, there may be a world outside the walls, but you don't ignore it. In fact, it was because of what the Buddha experienced outside the walls, the suffering, that this path beyond suffering really came into being. And so I always keep that in the back of my mind, that this was not a tradition that started inside the walls exclusively. It started because someone was brave enough to jump over the walls, and to experience what was outside in the world. We say have a passion have a passionate is the art of living. It's not the art of living in the world we want it's the art of living in the world that's in front of us. So having said that, what has been really important to me, for example, and I think this was much of a surprise to many of the people at the training is to note, for example, that Martin Luther King, Jr. speechwriter, my dear friend, my teacher, my mentor, the late Dr. Vincent Harding, the man who actually wrote kings 1967, Riverside Church, New York City speech, the beyond Vietnam speech, the speech that probably more than anything, marked King as someone who really had stepped outside of simply engagement with the causes of the South. But moving into the anti war movement, some people said, set him up for his assassination later, but this powerful speech came from a man, again, Vinson Harding, who was a passionate meditator who sat 10 day courses, who actually led his students to say, Hey, I think you would really benefit from doing a 10 day sit and some of them actually went on to do more than 10 day sets. And so I when I, when I look back at that, and again, Vinson was a dear friend, during his life, someone who took me under his wings, and I learned about, you know, what it means to live a life that is also deeply spiritual, at the same time, is deeply committed to social justice. So that, to me is a really clear example, not just in general of using spirituality, in terms of social justice, but specifically of a passionate taught by sn Goenka, in this case, as the basis for the spiritual underpinnings that allow you to continue the work that Vincent was doing in the world. And again, Vincent's work is just tremendous to be the person who wrote the words that King delivered is, I think, speaks in a very beautiful way about what is possible when somebody has this spiritual teachings beneath them. Now, the other the other thing is, there's a long tradition, beyond just Buddhism, of social justice movements in the United States, deeply connected with Eastern spiritual traditions. And I don't know how much of that I remember getting into in that presentation for the the passionate community. But for others that I've spoken to about this connection, that has been important to is to understand that social justice and spiritual practice don't have to be separated. And the the importance of bringing one spiritual understanding to the work of social justice can be tremendous in terms of what it can do to give you a balanced way of going about tackling some of the most challenging issues in our culture in our society today.
Host 19:39
So these two features have been engaging in a spiritual practice in this case, specifically the passionate meditation and bringing social justice issues into the framework. These are really intertwined and go very much hand in hand. You
Clyde Ford 19:55
know, as far as I'm concerned, they do the passionate allows me to be engaged with social justice. And my sense of why one needs to be engaged in social justice is supported by the proportion of practice that I have, I don't know that I could do one without the other alone. Because I really feel that it's so easy if you're just focused on social justice, to be swept up in the emotions, of inequity, the emotions of anger, the emotions of injustice, and, and without having a spiritual foundation that allows you to experience the anger, to experience, you know, the emotions that come up, but not attached to them in a way that affects you. I think that's tremendously powerful tool. And on the other hand, also, I don't think that I could be involved in a spiritual practice that doesn't recognize the world that I'm living in, as I said earlier, for passionate is the art of living. It's not the art of hiding. It's the art of living and the world we live in is the world it is today. And I want to be able to live in that world function in that world, and contribute to the change in that world in a way that doesn't knock me off center that allows me to keep my equanimity and my peace.
Host 21:21
Right, great. I want to continue exploring these two dynamics of that's really been with us since the dawn of humanity, whatever spiritual tradition you come from all over the world, and yes, the spiritual plane and where these come together, and I'd like to narrow the issue down to focus on this tradition of Sri Lanka that you're yes meditator and that you lead trainings. And again, I'd like to have a little bit of a preamble and take a minute to give a bit of background for any listeners who are unfamiliar with going to his teachings in this regard. So historically, this tradition has drawn a very sharp line between on the cushion formal practice and engagement and worldly activities at its centers. Glinka himself insisted that only meditation should be practiced at the Centers because anything else would sidetrack the meditator from their most important work. That is the Dhamma practice. And he went on to express a concern that allowing any worldly activities at all at the center would inevitably lead them to a place where an increasing number of worldly activities would happen, to the point that it could eventually drown out meditation altogether. In fact, today, Senator guidelines forbid one during a course to even talk about worldly topics at a center. So until very recently, this edict has largely precluded senators from engaging in any activities or even discussions related to racial justice. Then there's the question of social engagement outside of the centers and how the tradition guides its practitioners to integrate meditation into these matters. On this regard, Glinka clearly expressed the belief that the more you can purify the mind, the more you naturally start responding in a more balanced and mindful way, to all situation and in all walks of life. So in a nutshell, the only way to really achieve social harmony is for each person to work relentlessly towards inner harmony. He once said, quote, when you want to change society, you have to change the individual. After all, society is nothing but a massive individuals, each man matters most. And when you talk of man who has nothing but the combination of Mind and Matter, and mind matters most end quote. In other words, individuals only need to work on themselves and social issues will take care of themselves. So Glinka teaches that other than when one is working on one's livelihood, one's thinking should be about the Dhamma. So while there's no injunction against it, many practitioners in this tradition may be less likely or motivated to engage actively in social or political causes, even if they're sympathetic to them. So Clyde, what I'd like to ask is to explore this topic with you a bit. And yes, as an active anti racist educator, what has been your own personal experience and being a member of community with such a strong emphasis on formal practice? Pretty much to the exclusion of all else?
Clyde Ford 24:16
Yes, well, first of all, I think I would agree with most of what you articulated about going to saying, you know, my sense is that the teachers, the center should teach meditative practice and, and that should be their prime focus. I don't hear going to saying anywhere. I mean, what I hear him saying when put it in the positive is that once you're established in this tradition, you will know how to best focus in the world, and what to do. And I have to agree with that as well to write, I don't hear in that. Don't do anything in the world. just meditate. Sure. I hear meditate because it's going to allow you to better function in the world. And I had Again, I would say I very, very much agree with that. Here is where there is somewhat of a gray area, though, and that I don't think Lenka really addressed, or at least in the statement, you just said, what do you do at a center? That because of its structure, structurally makes it almost impossible for people of color to be it?
Host 25:26
It's quite a question.
Clyde Ford 25:27
I mean, if the passion is the art of living, and we want, or at least we want to make that available to as wide an audience as possible, then we as a community have to look at what are some of the structural barriers to allowing that to happen. And that's where you get this sense of convergence between what's going on in the world, and what's going at on at our centers. And that's what I think many of the folks who came to the training, were really grappling with. And that's also partly, you know, one of the things I wanted to help them try to get at that I wanted to help them address. Look, I've been sitting for 30 years, I've been to a number of courses, you know, I can count on my hands, the number of times I've been in a course with more than two or three people of color, and why, you know, why is that the case? It shouldn't be right. This is a tradition that has so much to offer everybody, that the passion should be available in a way that, hey, not everybody can take off 10 days to sit their jobs, don't allow them that does that mean for passionate, shouldn't be available to those people. Not everybody can drive four hours to a course, does that mean? The passion shouldn't be available to folks like this. So I really hope and I believe and there are a lot of people other than I am, who are saying there are some ways there must be some ways we can reach out to share this beautiful Dhamma with people who might need it, but don't have access to it. And when there are people who do come to the passion or trainings, maybe we don't, and I'm saying we hear in terms of the teachers and center managers, and course managers, maybe there's some things that we can learn about cross cultural communication that might assist in engaging people and making them feel welcome. It's a very similar situation, Joe, to what I see all the time in the corporate world. Just because you hire somebody of color, they often walk into a workplace environment, which feels very hostile to them, doesn't recognize who they are, and therefore they're gone before they've ever had a chance to advance. So course managers course center managers, were saying, what can we learn that might assist us in making our meditation teaching centers, more inviting, welcoming to the folks who might even get here? And I would also say, how do you extend the reach, so that it's not just people who are coming to the centers, but for passion or reaching out to the people who might benefit from it. But again, this is what I hear in the tradition. When Ashoka sent those, you know, those monks out into the world. He sent them to all the corners of the earth. He that was an outreach that was almost an evangelical outreach of Buddhism around the world. And so it is deep within the traditions of Buddhism, to reach out to those who might benefit from these traditions. And I think it's also incumbent upon us today to look at how we can do that as a passionate community.
Host 28:51
Yeah, and I do want to get more into what it was that you actually did and the training and how the responses were sure. And I'll keep my questions more on a general level. But I do realize some of the information might be sensitive or confidential. So please let me know if there's any answers to these questions that you prefer not to address in the public forum.
Clyde Ford 29:09
Absolutely.
Host 29:11
So early on in the training, I see that you got to the heart of that spiritual worldly balance we talked about before with this question, quote, do the passionate students and the passionate centers respond to this current moment of reckoning for racial justice and racial equity? If so, how do they respond and quote, can I ask what kind of response you got from this question?
Clyde Ford 29:33
Well, you know, I got a really interest, I was expecting that I was going to get a response in which the reliance would be to fall back solely on the teachings and to say the teaching tell us there's nothing to do other than to teach students how to meditate. That's not the response I got. And I was really pleased with that, because that wasn't the way I was trying to present the seminar. This seminar the workshop was really about how do you create communicate with people who might have a very different background and experience than you have. And how do you use the training, the teaching the tools, the techniques, we've developed that for passionate meditators to be better at that level of communication. And if you are capable of bringing those tools, to the way you interact with other people, then the gold you're looking at, of making the passionate, more inclusive of bringing more people to this kind of practice, I think those are going to help sort themselves out because you know how to communicate and you're doing it not in any way by violating the principles and techniques that you've been sitting on the mat doing through so long already. So I think because I came from that point of view of let's start with what we know that there was an openness to looking at, okay, how do I communicate with other people who might be different, it's not violating any of the precepts of the teaching. In fact, more than anything, it's opening up the possibility of extending the teachings to a wider community. Sure.
Host 31:13
Right, and that reminds me of, you know, as these courses and centers expand, they look at things as they rightly should, like, What languages is it being taught in and what kind of cure is being served down to just cultural things, you know, I started my, the passionate city in in Japan, and I don't know if you've been in Japan before, but the Japanese way of bathing is very different from the and of using the toilet is also different from what we're accustomed to here in the West. And so the bathrooms accommodated, both Thai types of bathing and toilet situation. So it's just being sensitive to in different ways, sometimes ways you wouldn't expect outside of your own culture and framework and community to serve a community that is receptive to those teachings if they're, if some of those steps are made. So that the, it's less of a jump to move into what's already a pretty rigorous spiritual practice.
Clyde Ford 32:03
Absolutely. And I think that's important. And Buddhism has always done that. I mean, again, I go back to Shoko sending out those monks into the world. You know, when they got to Burma, there was a different culture, when they got to Nepal, there was a different culture, when they got to China and Japan, there was a different culture. And in each case, Buddhism was pliable enough, it's the tree that could bend without breaking. That was the covering for this beautiful set of teachings. And that's what I think we need here in the States, more of a sense of how do you bend without breaking, because the the trunk of that tree is these core teachings. And yet those core teachings have enough playability in them to respect the cultural values and norms of folks who come to the classes. I've been at an old Chinese city where the teachings were in Chinese and the food was in Chinese, part of the culture of the course was Chinese, I thought it was wonderful. And I think the same thing can and should be applied with people of color. And as well, too, and could be done here in the States.
Host 33:13
Yeah. And I think you're in such a unique position in bringing this because, as you've said, already, in this interview, your student of this tradition, you greatly respect what these teachings are, and are benefiting from them. And you're not trying to kind of knock people off what those core principles are, you're looking to adhere to that and to help them adhere to that. But to be more effective, and how they're and how wide the tent is, and the umbrella to bring people in and benefit from what this core practice is.
Clyde Ford 33:42
Absolutely. I mean, the core practice of a passionate is really a foundation of my life. And all of the work I do in the corporate world. Of course, I may not speak about the passion, but everything I'm doing is based on that grounding that I have. And I really believe if it true, you know, I mean, this is kind of the test. Glinka asks us to be scientists with this. If the passionate is true, then I think it's got to work not only in terms of our own personal world, but in terms of the world we live in and share and community as well, too. I believe it's true. I've seen it work in myself and with the people I've worked with. That's why I get excited about doing a training like this is because we have the tools, we just sometimes not, not everybody knows how to use them. But we've got the right tools. And we've been practicing those tools for a long time.
Host 34:35
Right. And I appreciate being able to speak with you trainer to trainers. I also have a background in this profession. So I was enjoying seeing a bit of what you share the materials of it. And one of the things I love to do in my own workshops is start with a kind of opening question and then reflect back at the end to see if the participants may have shifted their thinking on some key points through the actual experience of the session. And I see from From your materials, you did something similar here, as towards the end of the training us, quote, as of a passionate student, how do I wish to respond to this call for racial justice and equity now taking place across the country and around the world and quote, so I can see you're moving from asking if, as I quoted in the earlier question, one should be involved as of a passionate meditator in issues of racial equity, to now asking how one can be involved. So what response did you get here? Was it different from the initial time you asked the question? And if so what changed?
Clyde Ford 35:34
Yeah, that's really great. So I think the best way to answer that, Joe is to say that I heard because we didn't have time to fully get all the responses. But I heard from the people involved in the inclusivity group, that the response was really beyond their expectations in terms of people recognizing that the tools they were using, gave them the practices they were using gave them a basis for how to make the tent larger. And that I think, was really important. I think the other thing I heard is that many people really latched on and I was very pleased to the idea of recognizing that we're passionate had been used as a basis for social justice movements. I think hearing the story, particularly about King's speech writer, my dear friend, Vincent, and him having been of a passionate practitioner, and using that as the basis of writing some of the words that King spoke, I think that really touched people and let them realize, Oh, my god, there's a way to be firmly rooted in this tradition, and still be deeply engaged in the practice of social justice. I also heard that some of the folks who had attempted to pursue these ideas of inclusivity within Vipassana beforehand had met a lot of resistance. I also heard that some of the people in the workshop reached out to them and said, Look, we may not have been right, 10 years ago, when we didn't allow you to do this, that and the other. And we want to both, you know, express our apologies, and our gratitude for the worldly work that you did. And these are some of the folks within the community who attempted to expand proportioner, early on, who were again, met with a lot of resistance. So people I think, from that course have to me from my workshop, recognized some of the history that needs to be overcome, and some of the ways to overcome that history. And you know, Joe, I always go back to something I say, just about every training I do that I really believe that what we need is truth and reconciliation. And the first part is truth. You start with saying, What is it like now, what's going on now, what has happened in the past? And once that said, then you can move into what do we need to do to change, we can move into the reconciliation part. So I was pleased to hear that folks who had done the workshop, recognize the truth of what some of their centers are like for folks of color, what it's been like for people of color to try to make changes within the organization, that recognition of the truth is a great place to start change.
Host 38:30
It certainly is. And when you reference some of the people before that tried to shift and might not have been fully successful. To talk specifically, I have to say I was really both surprised and delighted when I heard from Victoria Robertson, that in your workshop, you played a snippet of my conversation with her. And you asked participants to reflect on it. From my side, you know, to think that our conversations here are actually having a positive impact on the communities. It's the most we can hope for on this podcast platform. So
Clyde Ford 39:01
Well, sorry, go ahead. I was just gonna say, you know, showing the work you're doing is incredibly important. Thank you. And I would be, you know, when I heard what you were doing, I realized what a perfect fit. It was so and I really appreciate that.
Host 39:17
Thank you. Yeah, so for listeners who aren't familiar, I want to point out this was from Episode Number 16. I encourage any listener to go back and hear Victoria speaking fool about her experiences. She's a former she's an African American former senior teacher in the organization, and for those who haven't heard to give a brief refresher. In one part of her talk, she covered how she had tried to get the organization's blessing to teach a 10 day course specifically for people of color in the US. She describes Glinka himself has been quite supportive, but notes that her initiative was blocked by mainly white senior teachers in North America. So first I just want to know from you personally, Clyde is a lifelong member. meditator and someone very committed to racial justice. What was your own reaction as a listener when you first heard this anecdote on this episode?
Clyde Ford 40:07
Yeah, so my first reaction was, you know, it's the saying we often say about spiritual communities, the problem is not usually not with the teacher or the teachings, but the misguided intention to the faithful. And that is a sense that I think particularly in the West, we may look at our meditation and spiritual practice practices as being, you know, different and enlightened. But in the West, there's this tradition of fundamentalism, and by fundamentalism here, I mean, a sense that there's a right set of teachings, there's a right way to do and if you're not doing it the right way, there's something wrong with you, and you don't belong in this community. That's a level of fundamentalism that cuts across spiritual practice and religious traditions. And I think, unfortunately, infuses some of the things in the proportion of community as well, too. So I'm not a fundamentalist in that way. I do very much Aspire. And I attribute my own personal meditation practice and success to the core teachings. But adhering to core teachings, and having a fundamentalist point of view are two very, very different things. I think those can be confused, particularly in the West, I see them confused. I think it has something to do with the Western traditions that we come from, which are really based on these very stark contrast between right and wrong black and white, and in many ways don't reflect the Buddhist teachings of finding that middle way. So it's strange that even within a spiritual tradition that talks about the middle way, you find such level of fundamentalism and dogma that I don't know always helps us be and enlarge what it is we're doing in the best way.
Host 42:06
Yeah, I think that's totally true. And certainly I, my own personal background, I've been in Myanmar, probably about 1015 years now. And when before I came, I really only knew about the tradition from what I'd heard through discourses and people who traveled there. And when you go back to where it originated, from at least this particular tradition, I mean, there's there's hours and hours of discussion that could have on this topic. But to boil it down to one simple kind of metaphor, is that what I had understood as being in very solid lines and boxes? When I got to me and Mark learning, it was more dotted lines and floating. And it was, it was a bit painful at first, because there were some conceptions I felt very strongly about that I was confronted with, but it was ultimately a way of letting go of certain hard things I was holding on to to see fundamental attitudes, I guess you can say in your words, to to be able to to let those go and see the different form those teachings could take that weren't so kind of fastened and hardened.
Clyde Ford 43:09
Yeah, that's a great way to say it, Joe. And again, I go back to you know, just Western culture there is deep within resting culture, this sense of having an attitude and hardening that attitude, hey, look, you only have to look at what's going on in this country politically, and see the very, very hard and divisive political stances. Again, Buddhism teaches the middle way, not one way or the other, but the middle way. And I think we've got to look at what does it mean, to find that middle path in terms of enlarging the tent of a Pasha, so that there's a lot of people who could benefit from this beautiful practice. And that I think, is starting to happen? I think the you know, what is going on in the streets, and how that's affected the individuals who are also involved in this tradition, whether they're teachers or whether they're students, I think it's a good thing. Because if it's shaking, the sense of fundamentalism, and systemic racism is just another way of saying a fundamental beliefs about people cast now in political and ethnic and racial terms. If it's shaking, that fundamentalism got to believe it's a good thing. I think that fundamental fundamentalism needs to be shaken. I don't think it means that you in any way have to destroy the core beliefs. But you do have to let go of how things are playing out in some of the ways they are in our centers and in proportionate here in this country.
Host 44:41
Sure, sure. And getting back to that snippet that you played from the conversation with Victoria Robertson. As we discussed earlier, the tradition of sn Goenka is a community that emphasizes formal practice and typically avoids getting entangled in social issues, even pressing social justice issues. So through your discussion of the snippet from that interview, you led the group to openly discuss this behind the scenes strife. That wasn't very well known before the publication release of this interview of a course for African American students being blocked in the US. Do you feel comfortable sharing the general responses you got by bringing something like this out into the open?
Clyde Ford 45:23
Yeah, well, again, you know, I certainly didn't try to do it to put the blame on anybody. Sure, sure, sure. But just simply to look at what it means for someone to try to move ahead with an idea as Victoria did. And to meet that resistance. I think the most beautiful thing that I can say about that Joe, is really and I don't think Victoria would mind me saying this, that she told me she, she sent me an email, the evening or the day of following the course. And she said, you know, maybe we did move the needle a little bit, because someone sitting in your course contacted me to say that they were that they didn't feel like maybe they had done the best by her when they when that course was blocked. And so there was a sense of reconciliation, a sense maybe, of coming to some new understanding that happened, because of what she had done. And then 10 years later, what maybe the workshop that, that I led also, you know, had people contemplate so if there's even a small shift like that, I have to feel like that was a good thing, because there was some understanding of the truth of what had happened, paving the path for some reconciliation and change.
Host 46:51
Right. And just as you said that I had the reaction I did, because suddenly, it just, this parallel came in my mind of 2008. And Obama's election. And there were a number of studies showing the different benchmarks along the way over the last difficult 50 100 200 years of this country's history, and little actions in some places that just did enough to shift a little bit here a little bit there. And Obama being this culmination of all of these small struggles that happened before and and leading to a day that at that time, no one thought was really possible. And so hearing, you frame your ability to lead this workshop as building on the back, or, or going in the same direction as something that she tried and failed to do. But to not see it as a failure, but to see it as kind of unnecessary, if not unpleasant or unfortunate step along the way to creating something that became possible after it.
Clyde Ford 47:49
Absolutely. I mean, that's really beautifully put, yo, and it makes me think of another saying that Obama was very in love to say and that, you know, history is a long arc in terms of social justice, but it bends in the right direction. And I'm paraphrasing that. And I'd have to say the same thing is true about spiritual practice. It's a long arc, but it does bend in a direction of, I think, I hope in this case, inclusivity as well, too, I had the other analogy I love to use is that, you know, for me, a workshop like that is like a trim tab, turning a big ship. And by that I mean on really large ships. I'm a sailor, so I've been around the water for a number of years on really large ships like ocean liners, the rudder is so big, that you can't turn the ship with the rudder. So there is a little cutout on the rudder, called a trim tab, you can turn the trim tab, the trim tab turns the rudder, and then the rudder turns the ship. So if a workshop like this was a trim tab to help turn the ship slightly. I'm really pleased. And I know that you know, this workshop stood on the backs of the work that people like Victoria did, and in my mind stood on the backs of the work that people like my dear friend Vincent Harding did as well, too. So I never really approached this sensing that I was out there alone, I always felt I had a lot of support, right, even if that support wasn't visible in the normal ways.
Host 49:23
Yeah, that's great. In one of your slides, you acknowledged the fear or avoidance that some white meditators might feel when engaging in these conversations, and you actually provided prompts for them to consider as to why these conversations were uncomfortable. These prompts included things like and this is this is a quote quotation from you and from the materials that you shared before the interview. Yeah, I'm afraid of revealing my true feelings. They won't understand. Yeah, people call me a dot, dot dot. Why did you feel that this was an important exercise to include at the start of the training
Clyde Ford 49:58
because first of all, Culture, we do not have a tradition of learning or teaching people how to have difficult conversations. And so the response in terms of instead of having a difficult conversation is not to say anything at all the sense that if I just sweep it under the rug, I don't have to worry about it. Well, we know that that doesn't work. And so what I really do in that part of the training is I hope that people will recognize that whatever fears they may have, there's a lot of other people who have similar fears. So let's get them out in front. And let's deal with them as opposed to sweeping them under the rug, I mean, that that whole workshop I did was called, let's talk about race for passionate. And the idea there is, we don't have the tools to even talk about the very issues that are in front of us. So let's get the tools, the tools are based on the practice that we have anyway. So they're not foreign to us, we just have never learned how to apply them to challenging situations, like the situations around race and racial equity. Let's do that. And one of the places you start doing that is what brings on fear is so many people are scared of talking about a subject like race, people who are people of color, have some fears around talking about that, to people who are white, white people have fears about talking about that, around people who are of color, and even amongst themselves. And so you gotta start where people are. So passionate starts with the reality as it is not as you want it to be sure. And I really am very committed to that, that you start where people are. And that's the only place you can start to produce change.
Host 51:45
Yeah, absolutely. That's, that's beautiful. That reminds me when I first started giving trainings in Myanmar, and some of the critical thought part, portions weren't going so well. And as I started to learn more about Burmese culture, I realized that that there's an enormous influence on on harmony, wanting to not say something that would especially be contrary to your elders or whatnot. And so any exercise we did even a silly little exercise, the answers I'd get back would be, well, we felt happy, because we got to do blah, blah, blah. And we'd like this because bla bla bla comments that really weren't where I was hoping to go. And I had to add hours and hours of workshops in the future based on what I saw their needs, were just exploring how someone could say something as simple as, you know, I like this activity because I got to move around. And someone else could say something, well, I did like this activity, because I My leg hurts and I didn't want to move around. And just the fact that that disharmony is not even just harmony, right, but just the fact that those two diverse means can be expressed. And it wasn't disrespectful. And it wasn't, it wasn't taking responsibility for what you were saying. I mean, this is all in the context of Burmese culture. But where I'm going with this is that you have to know your audience, you have to know your participants you have to where you want to take them and what you want to discover and explore and the training, you have to tailor it to who they are, what their fears are, what their abilities are, what limitations they might have, that they're not aware of, and not just tell them, okay, I want you to do like this, but to actually have some kind of experiential exercise where they're, they're trying on the very thing that they might not even know they're uncomfortable doing. So that's, that's what I, at least what I saw in that slide, and what I appreciated about it.
Clyde Ford 53:28
No, absolutely. And I mean, again, this is a training I've given around the country for many years, actually, and actually have been asked by the National Endowment for the Humanities to do is around Washington state with humanities, Washington. And so I do have a sense of what fears people come to this with. And just as you said, I think it's important to get those out early, so that you can then find ways not to ignore them, but just to hold them in terms of the culture that you're dealing with. And believe me, the fears that one might find here in America are not the same fears you might find in other places, as well. I've taught in Germany, for example. And there, it's just the opposite problem. And by opposite I mean, I just like you, I was wondering why well, I'm doing these exercises, but they sure seem like they're taking a long time. And the reason they were taking so long is that in German culture, at least with the young people I was with, they said to me, Look, we talk about everything. We're going to talk about anything that happens. And we're going to talk until we feel we have nothing more to say. And the reason we're going to do that is because our parents generation didn't talk about things during the third right when they showed it. So Wow. I mean, you know, you realize they're, you're in a different environment, a different culture, a different set of rules. And these have and in some ways, I'm glad I even mentioned that the German experience that said to me, if they can do this around the Third Reich and nicieza. Right? You got to be able to do that about race and racism here in this country as well, too. And, again, that was a motivating one of the motivating reasons behind that slide.
Host 55:10
Right. Right. I want to segue here to a related topic and something that's really at the heart of the matter on this subject matter. And that's spiritual bypass. So first, yes, please define this term for our audience, and perhaps give a couple examples of it. Yeah, so
Clyde Ford 55:25
spiritual bypass is using spiritual principles and practices in order to get around dealing with specific uncomfortability within oneself within society to get around or bypass social justice issues. And you know, here's a good example of a spiritual bypass is G, all we really need is to have more metta. And everything will be right in the world. So let me just do my metta practice, and I'm not gonna worry about anything else. And you know, that may be great, I agree, we definitely could use more meta in the world, we could use a lot more loving kindness. But the truth of the matter is, we also need people who are committed to working and living in the world to bring about change, and the way that change happens, whether it's socially, educationally environmentally, politically, economically, you name it, we need people who have a grounding and meta to do that as well, too. So it's not one or the other, you don't just say, let me retreat back into my spiritual shell, and forget about the world, there is the opportunity then to engage in the world. And that's the move beyond spiritual bypass. And so, you know, you see a lot of examples of that in spiritual communities. And again, I think, in the West, in particular, where, in a sense, spirituality can sometimes be used to avoid having to address the uncomfortability of issues personally or socially. So people will say, you know, I'm just going to meditate, and I'm not going to worry about anything else. If I just meditate, then everything's going to be right. And if everything isn't right, in my lifetime, then eventually, and you know, a number of incarnations, it will be right. And, and I agree, we need to meditate. And I do agree, it's gonna take some time, it may not be one lifetime. But I also think that people need to recognize what they can do and should do to contribute to change, whether that's how they raised their children, how they interact with their community, the types of you know, the way they want to bring about change through their voting habits, it doesn't matter. But those things are important, you can't just retreat into the shell of a spiritual practice that might feel fulfilling, without recognizing how you what you are doing contributes to the world look, King said, silence is violence. And that is something which I really believe in, that you can't just be silent, in the face of what is going on around you. You can speak up, and you should speak up with an understanding that is grounded in some of these spiritual truths. There's a way to speak truth to power that also is not attached. That I think is really important. That's a tradition that goes back to Gandhi and even before, of how do you bring spiritual practice into the world of making social and political change? There's a long history of that. And I think it's a beautiful tradition, when we as we're passionate meditators have that deep grounding in the spiritual truth.
Host 58:39
And you talk about how even seemingly benign forms of spiritual instruction can lead to a blindness of the dangers of spiritual bypass lurking within them. Let me quote just a few of the examples you shared in your training, such as, quote, just practice what you were taught. That's enough. There's no need for advocacy on social issues or discussion of interpersonal issues. All we need is more you mentioned this before peace, love, compassion, meditation, metta, etc, fill in the blank, everything will be resolved on its own. There's no need to confront difficult thoughts, feelings or emotions. With such again, fill in the blank peace, love, compassion, meditation, metta, no one could ever feel alienated within our community. So hearing some of these instructions, and meditative comments reframed here, I wonder if some white mess meditators listening to us now may be confused on some point. So for example, this kind of instruction, after all is part of the bedrock of one's practice. And one could be hearing these things, wondering whatever could be wrong with them. And as you just said, there's actually nothing wrong with them. It's just that they might be incomplete and need more information, more understanding with them. But can you describe what you see as what could be dangerous or To be a better word is misinformed about the mindsets behind some of these framings.
Clyde Ford 1:00:06
Yeah, I think I can. And, you know, I'm going to go back to something that's in my background, one of the reasons I actually left the Hindu ashram community I was involved with, I remember one day walking down, walking down the street at this particular art forum, and one of the students very deeply involved for many years saying to me, isn't it wonderful being here, you don't have to think all you have to do is follow the teachings. And I said to myself inside, oh my god, that is exactly what I don't want to do. I do. I do want to think, I mean, even if it leads to me making mistakes and correcting them, and when I hear sn Goenka Ji talking, I hear him saying think be like a scientist, use your mind in a way that helps you discriminate. Practice in this way, I don't hear this sense of Don't think about things that if you just meditate, everything will be okay. So I really do think it's very important that we don't adopt this sense of, hey, let somebody else who's already thought these things through, do the thinking for me, I just want to do the practice. That turns out to be a very Eastern way, really, of engagement in the world. Look, there's the guru or the teacher, the teacher, or the guru does the thinking everybody else does the following. And if you just follow the teachings well enough, you don't have to do any more thinking everything is going to be okay. I'm not sure that I by that, I think that is one way of being in the world or being you know, with your spiritual practice, it is not the only way. Another way with being with spiritual practice is to say, Boy, this practice gives me all these incredible tools. I want to use this to live in the world, I want this to be my art of living, I'm going to practice these things in a way that allows me to engage in the world, but also be very firmly rooted in the spiritual practice. That's what I think we need more of, I don't always hear that with spiritual bypass, I hear the other way of, I don't want to involve myself with having to really contemplate these issues, let somebody else do the thinking for me, I just want to practice, I want to rock people out of that mindset, because that's the mindset, given the history of this country, that has led us to where we are in terms of racial inequity, in terms of bias and other areas as well to what happened before cannot be the basis of what continues to happen. Now. That means somewhere along the line, we have to change. And in order to change, we have to be willing to examine our own histories. And to examine our own histories may also mean we have to change. So that's I think, really important. I think it's within the teachings. I don't feel in any way it violates my understanding of a passionate of Buddhism. But I do hear a lot of that that is one of the big sources of resistance. I don't want to have to think about things. This technique tells me I don't need to think about things just do the practice. Yes, just do the practice when you're sitting on the mat. But once you get out into the world and you've got to really rely on those teachings it's also time to engage your mind as to what you need to do that might make a difference and how you can bring those teachings to life as you live in the world.
Host 1:03:56
Right right. Looking at this tradition specifically and going cuz own messaging with it, I'd like to revisit some of his his instructions or discourses that have almost like a Universalist utopia and even message that he certainly emphasized in his teachings. Here's a quotation that that exemplifies that quote, this is from Glencoe, I should say, he said, quote, leading a life of good conduct gaining mastery over the mind and purifying the mind totally is not a Dhamma belonging exclusively to any particular country, religion, community, class or caste. This is the true meaning of Dhamma Dharma is universal. By practicing Dhamma a Hindu becomes a good Hindu Buddhist becomes a good Buddhist Jain becomes a good Jain, a Christian becomes a good Christian. A Muslim becomes a good Muslim, a Parsi becomes a good Parsi a Jew becomes a good Jew, one becomes a good human being and quote. So, in one sense, this seems obvious on its face, and it fits into this wider narrative that skin color or ethnic background don't really matter to Dhamma practice. Where one is simply trying to become a better human. Yet the very fact remains that you were invited to train on this topic at dhammakaya. Meaning that the issues of race are still problematic at US Centers, even at this time. So my question for you is, in your opinion, is there something missing from that Universalist message? And if so, what more do we need to understand?
Clyde Ford 1:05:24
You know, I don't really think there's anything missing from that message. I think there's something missing maybe from our understanding of that message, you know, what I would say is this, you know, the Dhamma is not exclusive to any one tradition, by practicing it, you'd be if you're a Jew, you become a better Jew, if you're a Christian, a better Christian, if you're a social activist, a better social activist. That's my understanding of things, that that understanding that there is this core set of teachings that's going to allow you to be better at both your spiritual and worldly practices. What, what more beauty could we ask for, and that's what I see there. That is the teachings do allow us to extend what we do into the world, even if at our centers, were simply teaching the practice, I think that's very valuable. But as I've said, you know, in a number of ways throughout our talk, Joe, I think you can bring that understanding into the world. In fact, I don't think you can, I think you have to, that's my understanding of a passionate again, it's the art of living. And it's the art of being a better human being in the process of trying to live in the world. And that means not cutting yourself off to the suffering around you. But finding a way both to deal with that suffering internally, with your practice, and externally, in your interactions with others. That's the beauty of the Buddhist traditions of the Dhamma. And that's what I really hope that we here in this country will understand and be able to extend this practice to those who could so benefit from this right in our communities of color in our diverse LGBTQ communities. I mean, that to me is, you know, my heart breaks when I realized what benefit could come by having this practice more widespread among these communities.
Host 1:07:21
Right, right. To me personally, one of the troubling implications of the reticence to address issues of social justice at the passionate meditation centers would be like this, whether it's intentional or not, it's almost like the organization is communicating a message to meditators of color. By its unwillingness, I should say it's past unwillingness, because your your training now is definitely a sign that some things are shifting, but it's past unwillingness to engage on the issue. And it would go something like this, a thought process like, so even if we do unwittingly have some organizational structure or policy or way of interacting that is biased or racially charged. It's totally unintentional. But if you as a meditator of color do feel uncomfortable, or any inks because of it, the onus is really on you to deal with it skillfully as a meditator and not on us to face up to it and change that policy or structure or way of interacting. So even though as meditators individually, we can acknowledge that the ultimate responsibility for each and every individual's internal peace lies within oneself. Because most of the management and the teachers, at least to US Centers are white, that attitude also seems to reflect the kind of essence of white privilege, what's your take on this?
Clyde Ford 1:08:36
That was you really took the words out of my mouth that I was going to use, which is a sense of entitlement and privilege. And and that really, that attitude is how systemic racism starts. And is established, you know, we used to, we used to call systemic racism, have a nice day racism. And it is a kind of benign sense of, you know, this is the way we do things, because this is the way we do things and the this for whom we are doing things are really not a very diverse group of people. And unfortunately, in proportion to centers, that often turns out to be the case as well, too. So how do you address that? Well, I mean, part of the way you address that is by opening up the centers to different influences. And I think there's some thought really has to be given to this. I love what Victoria Robertson was thinking about doing bringing an African heritage course, to various centers, I think that would be really important. I think there's something else though, you started by saying, you know, talking about the attitudes that might be there, which is, Hey, you know, if you have a problem with your own piece, it's your own internal problem. We're not here to solve that. We're here to give you a, you know, a practice a technique. There's another way to address that too. And the other way is, hey, we recognize that there are these issues in the world. Center, we may not be able to solve those issues. In fact, that's not even our mandate. But the tools that we can provide can help you be better equipped to address these issues in your life and in the world. You know, if that message got out, I think a lot of people would resonate to it. That's the way that Vincent Harding, Martin King's speech writer would say to folks that he encouraged to be in the passionate, it's gonna help you do what you want to do in the world better. And because you're going to be better equipped to do that in the world, you're going to have a better Foundation, you're not going to be able to be shaken off of your own sense of peace, that easily, you're going to be more quantumness, you're going to be able to first face diversity better. Listen, you know, back in the 60s, when we were involved in the freedom struggle, we were involved in Siddons, we were involved in protests, Joe, the first step in that process was not to paint the signs and to put them on post. The first step was to gather groups of people together, and to give them a spiritual Foundation, to walk out and face clubs, and to walk out and face water hoses and water cannons and dogs. The first step was a spiritual step. In fact, my good friend, James Lawson, got up at john lewis's funeral and said, the first words he said, were Satyagraha, I was amazed here he is talking to a group of mainly African Americans in a clergy setting, a number of people who weren't African American. And the first word he used really comes from an Eastern tradition, which also Buddhism has at its roots that is Satyagraha, the sense of nonviolent action in the world. That's what the freedom struggle was based on. And that's what I think we can do as a passionate community. We're not going to solve the issues we shouldn't we can tell people, we've got some tools that will help you work on the solutions. That's why you ought to be meditating. I think that's an incredibly valuable service.
Host 1:12:15
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And looking back at your training session overall, how do you feel it went? Was there anything that happened that surprised you? What, what was your feeling or sense at the end of the session,
Clyde Ford 1:12:27
you know, the biggest thing that surprised me were the extent to which people were touched by it, and recognize the value of the session, because it was based on the passion of practice, or heard a number of times, and from the people who invited me there, that it probably would not have been as effective. If the person leading the session hadn't also been grounded in the passionate tradition, I believe that it's once again, all I can say is how thankful I am to have been exposed to this tradition, to have practiced it for so long. Because it really has allowed me then to give back to this tradition, in a way that I think is really needed in the world right now.
Host 1:13:14
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And did you I know, it was just one session. So Didn't you you weren't with these participants for, you know, a long time getting to know them. But so in that short amount of time, I'm not sure if you made this observation. But did you notice any interesting differences? And how diverse generations of participants in the session respond to that the training in general, did anything stand out?
Clyde Ford 1:13:40
Yeah, well, I'll say one thing I did have a chance to do to go back with this group, the core group at dama, koonta, the diversity the inclusivity group, and to spend time with them. So I did get a chance to observe and talk. And one of the things that I that I really love and I smile out a little is I think that there's a younger group of passionate practitioners who are invigorating the organization in a way, that's great, who are coming in and saying, look, we grew up in an environment where bias is not something we're ready to really abide by, who are questioning core beliefs, like why should men and women sit apart from each other? If I don't identify as a binary? In terms of my sexuality? Where do I sit? And I think all of this is great. I don't think we should ever be afraid of people asking tough questions. The only thing we should be afraid of is when we don't want to try to grapple with the answers. I think we should always be open to listening to those questions. And we should always be ready to engage and grapple with the answer. So I saw that I see there's a certain level of invigoration that I didn't see, when I started sitting. those kind of questions were never asked. So I think it's great. I just think is wonderful. I'm really excited. I think the younger generation has always been kind of the motivating force for change. And that's no different now than it was, you know, 2030 years ago.
Host 1:15:11
Right, right. And in talking about this difference between the younger and older generations and how they respond to wear, again, this worldly spiritual balance, I want to talk for a moment about organizational culture. Yes. You said earlier that participants on this course were more higher up in the organization, perhaps like teachers, trustees, center managers, more experienced meditators, etc. And so while it's so valuable to bring this change at the top, I wonder how that can start to trickle down, especially in what is largely an insular organization where the culture and communication are pretty well established through discourses, instructions and course protocols. Let me give an example for this. So when I had that discussion with Victoria, well, of course, not every higher up in the organization was thrilled about it, several teachers who I'm close friends with, really cheered on what we were doing, they were thrilled, we are bringing that discussion to a wider audience, as they are right now with my conversation with you today. But after Victoria's interview came out, I knew as a fact that in addition to it being shared in your workshop, it was also shared widely among the passionate teachers themselves as required listening. And yet, when I went to share that information about Victoria's interview in different passionate groups on Facebook, which are largely maintained and followed by students who are not likely in those leadership positions, the response was very different. In some of those groups, my attempt to post was blocked from the very start and saying that it was a worldly issue that was not relevant or appropriate for the passionate group. In one group, I was blacklisted and removed for trying to post it. And yet another group, I was attacked by several of the members accusing me of intentionally trying to sabotage this pure Dhamma, by planting the seeds of dissent by sharing the interview of Victoria talking about this course being blocked. So it struck me that however much some at the top might start to be open and receptive to change. The rigidity of the general organizational culture, which has been intentionally cultivated over time, makes that very difficult indeed. So I know something like culture is not changed overnight. And we've talked about how these are very small steps in the grand scheme of things. But what do you feel needs to happen to work towards wholesale reframing to a message that is essentially at the core of the practice?
Clyde Ford 1:17:35
Yeah, what a great question. And and let me make sure that I just step back a moment and, and correct myself, if I misspoke earlier, there were a cross section of people in the workshop, both some of the senior manager, center managers, longtime practitioners, but there were new practitioners as well, too. So there was there was there was a cross section there. But more directly, to answer your question, you know, I'm a big believer that change happens bidirectionally. So change happens from the top down. But it also happens from the bottom up. And I think the fact that center managers and course managers and senior teachers are open to what needs to happen is extremely, extremely important.
Host 1:18:17
Yes.
Clyde Ford 1:18:18
I also think that the folks coming in, you know, there is and I go back to what I said earlier, the problem always isn't the teachings, it's the misguided intentions of the faithful. A lot of times folks coming into a spiritual system early on, just want to find something to hang their hat on. And they want to find they want to be able to hang their hat on in a way that they can defend it against any perceived threat from any place. Sure, whether it's somebody speaking truth like you were, whether or somebody like Victoria, and I think we have to recognize that put the place to change that really is at the Centers is with the senior folks, because it's the senior teachers. It's the senior meditators who set the tone and the course for the culture, that is the culture that then is cultivated among these new students that come in. I will say also, though, and this is why I say it's both directions, number of the folks in the diversity or the inclusivity group that, you know, I've worked with, these are younger students who are coming in with a background that just doesn't abide with this whole sense of privilege and power in the same way. And so there, what needs to happen is that they need to be given voice, that senior management leaders need to be willing to listen to the younger voices who have a different framework. They're the future, and we need to honor that future in a way that allows their voices to be heard. So I think it's again bi directionally. That's how change takes place. Right.
Host 1:19:59
So after all, At this point in time that we're at the training that you lead, if you don't mind my asking, Where do you think the organization is at at this moment in its willingness to come to grips with issues of racism, privilege and empowerment within its meditator community? And what would be some action steps that you'd prescribe that they should work on?
Clyde Ford 1:20:19
Yeah, that's, that's a great question. And that's one of the questions we actually dealt with, in a subsequent session, where I sat in with their inclusivity group at a dumb akuna, many of the people had taken the training, and we talked about these very issues. You know, one of the things that I think do, we all have to recognize, at least I certainly do is that the nature of the volunteer basis of the organizational structure for many centers means that change happens really slow. Even the meetings for the inclusivity group, there were, you know, every three weeks are every once a month, so that meant even at that level, things, were just not going to happen that quickly. And that's something that I think it's okay, because that's just the nature of the culture, you know, change is not going to happen overnight. So that's one thing to recognize. But the other thing, you know, the more questions about what are the steps that can be taken? I think there's a lot of there's so many concrete steps that can be taken. One of the things we discussed in that inclusivity group was, hey, maybe a training like this needs to go out to more centers. So that now there's a common language for having these kinds of discussions, that's more widespread within the proportion of community. So that's one thing we talked about. Another thing that we talked about is, you know, what are some of the ways that you do outreach for the passionate within the communities that you really would like to feel that would be more included here? So how do you do outreach in an African American community in a Hispanic community and in an LGBT community? How are those different? And what would it take? What does it mean to do proportionate outreach in that way? What are some of the systems and the structures that take place at the centers that might we could look at so for example, you know, I was talking to folks who identify as LGBTQ and saying, I'm not buying or actually non binary sexuality and say, I'm not binary. So when I walk into a room and see that men have to sit on one side and women on the other, that flips me out, I don't feel safe. Is there anything we can do to change it right there? And so issues like that, when someone of color comes to speak with me about the issues in their course? Do I know how to communicate with that person in a way that they feel welcomed? What can I say if I'm uncomfortable? How do I deal with that? I mean, these are things you can actually train people to do. These are a set of ways that we can go about as a community doing outreach. I think the idea is, there's no lack of ideas for how you do the outreach. It's simply a question. And again, we talked about this. And in the meeting I was at how do you structure them? What's the next step? And for at least that group, one of the next steps was maybe bringing in some trainers who are not a person of Carlat like I am, but who were white, to talk about unpacking privilege to talk about anti racism within the senior management of centers. I think that's another great thing that could be done in that process. So, you know, again, things we can do internally, each of us, things we can do as a community to for better outreach. There are a lot of ideas there. And it's just a question of how you stage them. I'm really pleased that the community is talking about this. I'm thrilled to be part of that discussion. And I really think it just means that in the future, we're going to be able to bring the passion to a wider range of people in a way that's going to make a significant difference.
Host 1:24:00
Yeah, that's really interesting. You're talking about outreach, because it reminds me of that part of the conversation with Victoria, where she had mentioned in that same interview about the international African heritage course, yes, that she notes. She noted ironically, that when you're looking at different outreach to African American communities, that perhaps the only specific outreach that she saw happened during her tenure was the domino brothers. That was a documentary that depicted the passionate meditation being taught primarily to black prisoners in the south. Right. And it was the reason that she was given she says in the interview, when her request to hold the 10 day course for people of color or African Americans, specifically at a center was denied was that there was already outreach in the form of that movie implying to her mind that no more outreach was needed. And Victoria went on to say his other black meditators I've spoken to, that they were very uncomfortable at that time that the only type of meditation outreach involving the African American community was in the form of a documentary of incarcerated black prisoners made for a primarily white audience. As Victoria described to me, these are black men and orange jumpsuits behind bars being saved by white teachers that were going into the prisons, this was at least her impression of the visuals of watching it. And so it seems like, you know, a decade ago or whenever that came out, and the outreach outreach was done, there was just much less sensitivity about the optics and the audience. And the reaction to what they were presenting. And from what you're talking about here, there's just a much higher degree of sensitivity in terms of how do we make the tent wider? Who are we talking to? How do we talk to them? And it's, I guess, it's somewhat easier to think about, well, what language do we need to speak in? Or what kind of food do they like? And those are as you move from one country to another, those are those can be more obvious things. But in looking at, if you really want a spiritual teaching, to spread to really look at what, you know, we talked about the trainings that we do, whether you're, you're doing the training for Germans, or white Americans, or I'm doing training for Burmese, wanting to really know, what is it that's driving this community? And what is the best way, certainly the least offensive way to be able to take these teachings in this practice and bring it to them so that they can see it as as relevant and meaningful for members coming from this community?
Clyde Ford 1:26:28
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the challenge with Dhamma brothers is not that that's a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. The problem is, it's it's the only thing. And that's what Victoria was saying. I mean, you know, that that is not most African Americans are not folks who are men in our jumpsuits behind bars, as she so dramatically put it. And so the challenge also, though, Joe, is I'm not sure that there is a change in understanding how to do that outreach yet. And I think it's because of people like Victoria, because of opportunities to sit down with have a passionate community that have been made available, let's say through this inclusivity group, that some of us are saying, These are the things you have to consider. I think it's because they're young people coming in who are saying now, you can't just do this, because there are people of color saying, You can't just do it this way. That there now we're seeing this level of sensitivity. That really also points to how change takes place. You got to have a wide tent of people making decisions on how to bring about that change. If you're going to have a wide tent that you invite people into for this practice. Sure. That's really important. So you know, you can't make this change happen. If the people involved in this change are not from the very communities that you would like to extend for passionate to, you've got to bring in folks who understand in order to make that change happen, believe me, if Victoria had been in on the decisions around Dharma brothers, there's a good chance that it may have come out as a different project. Right. Right. Right.
Host 1:28:21
Yeah. I have just a couple more questions for you. And I want Yeah, sure, is the next question by noting that it was suggested by a passionate teacher in this tradition, who is hoping to see greater inclusion in the organization's teaching ranks? And so it's not just a theoretical question where this is going is actually directly informing this teacher about your thoughts and views on the best way forward. So first, some background into the 10 day course format. For those who aren't familiar. Glinka had this unprecedent decision to not charge money for course retreats and support them by donation only. This is obviously really quite positive. relevant to our conversation today, it levels the playing field in terms of financial access to allowing students more chances to participate on courses, as opposed to many of the expensive retreats or scholarship barriers and other traditions. However, the Glinka tradition is mostly volunteer, and it requires months and even years of volunteer service and retreat time, in order for any advanced student to even be considered as an assistant teacher. In the US, there is of course, huge racial disparity between whites and people of color on nearly every every civil benchmark, from birth outcomes to educational level, health care, employment, civil and criminal justice, to healthy food, etc, on and on. So there's a certain amount of cultural capital and privilege built into the system that by default elevates those who have that kind of time and advantage to be able to spend time volunteering. So today, the tradition has very few African American teachers. to guide the students of color that are coming, and no senior teachers of color, as many meditation centers in other traditions do. So that teachers question is, given that the greater societal, racial and economic context, what might the organization do to remedy such obstacles in order to facilitate a more diverse representation? in its positions of responsibility and leadership? Yeah, he would like to know if you would advocate any form of affirmative action and how the organization chooses new assistant teachers? And if so, do you have suggestions for what this might look like?
Clyde Ford 1:30:38
Yeah. Again, that is a great question. I think it's a really important question, because it gets to the heart of one of the challenges, which is, even if I wanted to advance in this practice, do I have the privilege time and money to do so? Exactly. That's basically what it comes down to, you know, my thoughts are this. Maybe the passionate community needs to think about an alternative pathway, and alternative designations of the kinds of teachers that are available. You know, maybe there is a community outreach teacher, and that is at a different level than us teacher who has, you know, gone to a 10 day and a 30 day and a 60 day course, and is at a different level than a senior teacher. So there may be the need for a different way of allowing a person to proceed through the ranks, that would bring them to being a senior teacher, there is no lower level teaching, I don't even want to say lower level, I don't think that's the right designation, there is no category of teacher that really speaks to how to reach out to a particular community. I do think even if it's just somebody who is trained to lead a three hour set, that would be great. I think we need that number. In other words, we need a way for people to move through the ranks, that is a little different from how they would move through the ranks. Now, the other part of that question was, do I believe in affirmative action? And yes, I think affirmative action would be great. I think there is something to be said about affirmative action that says we would like to be more representative organization, other organizations are able to find a way to do that. What do we need to do to change that would allow us to do that? That's where I think affirmative action starts. I don't think it necessarily starts. By setting quotas, it starts by setting a guide or a benchmark, which is we want to be more inclusive, what do we need to do that? And that's where I think maybe, you know, we as an organization, need a different pathway that leads from a course, to being a teacher. In fact, we might even need a different pathway that leads to a course, how many people can take off a week of work? And when you think about, not only might they be looking at a forfeit of salary, but potentially job, you know, threats, or even if they've got children, how do they deal with childcare? All those are very real issues that maybe sometimes we aren't thinking about when we look at saying to somebody, you need to go to attend a class. So is there a way of doing the basic proportion or training that reflects better the lives and experiences and the economic realities of the communities that we'd like to do the outreach for? I think there is, I think there's probably a way of saying, well, we can do a course that over time, maybe over a longer period of time, and doesn't involve that 10 days that we would love to have people do because people can't afford that. So I really believe there's a lot of ways to thinking this through. It's just a question of a commitment to do that, once you make that commitment. I know there are people, I'm certainly one who's willing to sit down and say, here's what we can try. As I've suggested, there's probably a couple of ways to do
Host 1:34:15
that. So just being creative and thinking out of the box about new ways, new vehicles, that this teaching of Dhamma can be disseminated, where more people can join in, then the present vehicle in which it's offered.
Clyde Ford 1:34:29
Absolutely. You know, again, I go back to a shoka in the what eighth or ninth century. And those monks that he sent out into the world. I got to believe they were thinking oh my god, here I am in a totally new culture, what do I do? And that's the attitude that's the spirit of that's the mindset we have, you know, as an organization, we are dropping ourselves into a totally new culture. What do we need to do without breaking the tree of Dhamma but bending it with those core principles always intact.
Host 1:35:02
That's right. I mean, the Dhamma has never had, as opposed to other religions, some ultra sacred language or a sacred place. Of course, there are places that are important. But it's not that there's a certain kind of language or forum or dress or place where this is the only way that this teaching can be followed and practiced. It's a very versatile and mobile teaching that can be integrated into different communities across time.
Clyde Ford 1:35:29
I really believe that. But part of the challenge Joe is, and we talked about this earlier, in the West, there's a little bit more of a sense of that rigidity of there is one and only one way to do it. I don't think that's what the teachings tell us historically. But I do think that's what some of the students have adopted, and maybe even some of the teachers have adopted because of our proclivities in the West, to want to find the one way and stick to it.
Host 1:35:57
Yeah, I think there's definitely something there. And along with that, I would say there's also a sense of when you're coming into a tradition, from the outside, meaning that it's not native to your society or community. And this spiritual teaching then has profound impact on your life. And speaking personally, I know that it can be kind of a rough patch to figure out well, how do I continue being who I am in this society and then taking on these wonderful new sets of spiritual beings into how does this all come together? How is this integrated? For me, for others I've known, there's been kind of an adolescent spiritual period where it's been little rough and a little messy. And living in Myanmar, as long as I have, it's been just incredibly instructive to see the difference. And believe me, there's advantages both ways depending on how you come to the teachings, but really to see the difference and distinction of many of my Burmese friends and fellow practitioners in Myanmar, seen when the teachings are integrated across society, when the teachings are there from childhood into adulthood and beyond, there's a greater understanding, and flexibility for all the shape and the ways they can take.
Clyde Ford 1:37:07
Yeah, you know, one of the things I Kian with what you said you're and I love the way you put it, is being in spiritual adolescence, and and I think maybe that is a very humble way that those of us in the West should and could approach our own spiritual practices. I mean, these traditions have gone on 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of years, right, and here we are in the West, how long is the teachings of a passion have been available here in the West, not even 100 years, right. So let's all be a little humbler. And let's say that there's a lot we still have to learn. And there's a lot that we can still learn from the tradition. And maybe if we adopt that approach, we can be better in terms of our outreach to communities that have been underserved by the teachings, let's not assume that just because we know how to sit, you know, a 60 day course, we also have the wisdom that comes from 1000 years of teaching being in place.
Host 1:38:12
Yeah, that's beautiful. That's, that's just great. And so bringing in this humility, that maybe we don't know, as much as we think we know, we know enough to be able to start this little experiment off and to be able to reach a lot of people impact them impact ourselves. But maybe we don't know everything about everything. And I think for me, when I came to me and Mar and I saw the way the practice was integrated here, and I saw the existence of monasteries, and monks, and nuns and everything else, which of course, we don't really have to a great extent in the West. And just the realization to go along with what you were saying you were talking more about the people and the teachers that come to the practice. If you look at the actual physical places, the idea of a non monastic meditation center, that concept itself is barely half a century old. I mean, this lineage of Ganga, if they would have seen where it's going, they probably would have said sadhu sadhu Sadia, this is wonderful, you're expanding and teaching to more people. But they wouldn't have readily understood the concept. I mean, that's how new This concept is to have a non monastic meditation center where people come to just practice sitting. That is a new development from the many 1000s of years of or two and a half, 1000 years and the where the teachings have gone in the different cultures. That is a new adaptation. That's wonderful. That's not certainly not something to dismiss, but it is something to take a step back and say, we're still in the experiment slash adolescence phase of trying to figure out what we're doing all this.
Clyde Ford 1:39:45
You know, I agree, and that's a beautiful way to state it again, Joe. I always remember going to saying, you know, this is an experiment, you know, talking about the process within yourself. You're a scientist. It's an experiment. You You can actually determine what the you know how to evaluate what the results are. And I think that's true not only within the practice internally, but in the practice and how we extend it to others as well to that level of humility, which I've always felt from going, Gigi is something that we as an organization can adopt, as we want to try to expand out into these other communities, we've got a lot to learn. And I think it's wonderful. I'm just concerned, we don't want to get rigid before we've had the opportunity to expand out into the world.
Host 1:40:34
Great. I have just one more question for you. This one is also coming from a teacher. And I should mention that, in the previous talk, many of the ways we went and the questions some teachers who I'm friends with helped in supporting, look at where some of the conversation was going. However, these last two questions, this one in the previous one, I really wanted to highlight their involvement, because I think even the way that you're looking at the question and answering it, knowing the fact that where this information is going to, I think changes even the nature of looking at it. So here goes question is something like this, can you succinctly articulate the reasoning behind the view that integrating issues of racial justice into our Dhamma practice is actually a moral and ethical one, and not just a social and political one? And piggybacking on this, what are the benefits for a Dhamma community becoming more diverse?
Clyde Ford 1:41:26
Sure. Well, what a great question. And answer to the first part, I think it's available to us and blankies teachings. Again, I go back to something I said before, for the passionate is the art of living. That means who and where are we living, we are living in the society that we're in. We're not living at centers, we're going to centers to learn to study to practice, but we're living in the world. And the world we're living in the reality of that world is a certain degree of, well, inequities. You could even call it suffering. We as a portion of Buddhist meditators, we, we know something about how to deal with suffering, we know how to address it. And part of the ways that you address that pain and that suffering is you don't run from it. You don't wish for a better way of being in the world and be attached to it, you find a middle path that allows you to be present with the suffering, that allows you to work for something beyond the suffering without being attached to either outcome that makes the practice of social justice, part of the spiritual practice, not even separate from it, it becomes part of who we are as human beings and how we live our lives. And there can be no better example of integrated spiritual practice than a person who lives his life based on these deep principles. That's the whole idea. In Buddhism of, you know, the Jeevan. mukti is someone who comes back into the world who even experiences the sufferings of the world, but has within them a capacity to move through the world demonstrating the very principles of those teachings, we started off job by talking about the separation between social justice and spiritual practice. Now, I think what we're really coming to is that there is no separation, there never has been really, and I don't think there should be because you as of a passionate practitioner, and those we train can be beautiful examples of the kinds of individuals who can make a difference in the world and can live in the world in a way that we would hope many people can. So that's what I think is like, really, really important for me to understand. It's not separate. Social Justice and spiritual practice is really not separate, because social justice is how you bring the practice of these deeper truths into your life in the world. Okay, that was the first part of the question. Hey, would you ask me the second part again? Because I have, I want to get it right. Sure. Yeah.
Host 1:44:19
So this teacher is also curious to hear from you. What are the benefits for a Dhamma community such as the passionate organization, taking steps to intentional steps to become more diverse?
Clyde Ford 1:44:33
Yeah, well, first of all, to each individual, the benefit is pretty much along the lines of what I was saying just a moment ago, and that is, you know, we live in a world which is a very diverse world, we don't live in them and a, a world which, you know, people are just one color, people have just one sexual orientation. So the benefits again are learning how to bring who we are into the world. The Art of Living. I mean, that's one of the benefits. The other benefit is that as centers are able to expand and as we have outreach of a passionate into these communities, the teachings themselves will show what they are capable of, in addressing the issues that people have in their lives. That to me is so beautiful. I mean, you know, for my friend and mentor and teacher events at Harding, to turn to one of his students who is deeply involved in social justice activities and say, You know what, I think you would benefit from learning how to bring some peace, calm and tranquility in your life. Wow, isn't that great? I mean, that really says, and shows the direct, immediate benefit of these practices. So bringing people from diverse backgrounds into this context means that everyone will find a way to bring a certain level of peace, equanimity in their life, even in the midst of great difference on political ideas in terms of social justice ideas, and that level of peace and tranquility and equanimity. Hey, that's the level of common ground that we really, really, really need to find, if we're going to proceed as a culture and proceed as a society.
Host 1:46:28
Yeah, great. Well said, well said Well said. So I decided Sorry, I'm quite conscious of the time we've taken from you today. And thank you so much for being available to talk about this issue, amid what I imagine is a very busy schedule. These issues are quite challenging for many people to hear and consider. And I'm definitely grateful as our whole team is to have been led through this process today by someone as skilled as you. It's a lot of food for thought and what you shared. And I hope it becomes fodder for many more conversations between meditators going forward. I personally learned a lot myself, I want to thank you for that. And I know our audience is coming out of this interview, a more informed audience than they were going in. So thank you again. And before we sign off, is there anything else you'd like to add?
Clyde Ford 1:47:17
You know, the only thing I'd like to add Jonah, Joe, excuse me, other than my thank you to you, is that this is not in any way an imposition on my time, because this is the most important thing. I think that I think that I can do, what you're doing what we're doing, have the ability to bring spiritual truth into the world in terms of how we live our lives. I don't know of anything more important than that. And so you know, I'm always going to be a person who does what I can to allow the light that I've been given to shine through the work that I do in the world. I think that what, that's what proportionate gives us the opportunity to do, I hope that's what proportion of practitioners seize upon. That's the beauty of this practice. Those are the benefits of this practice. We say in meta, not only are we asking for benefits for ourselves, but in meta, we're actually saying that we hope those benefits accrue to everyone in the world. That's a beautiful statement of why again, social justice and spiritual practice are one in the same, I hope than any of the benefits that I've accrued to this practice, are visited upon all those in the world who might need to.
Host 1:48:39
Thank you. Thank you. That's beautiful. And thank you again, so much for your time today with us.
Clyde Ford 1:48:44
Thanks, Joe.
Host 1:48:53
I'll be honest, not only is asking for donations, my least favorite thing in the world, I find it pretty uncomfortable as well. Let's face it after prioritizing my own meditation practice, my main passion is learning about these inspiring Burma Dhamma tales and finding a way to share them with a wider audience so that many more can appreciate them. My passion is not at all the unavoidable administrative stuff, and certainly not the fundraising part of it. But unfortunately, we do have a minimum basic cost to keep our engine humming. So it's necessary for me to take a moment for that least favorite and uncomfortable thing, and as sincerely for your generosity in supporting our mission. If you found value in today's show, and think that other meditators might as well, we ask that you take a moment to consider supporting our work. Thank you for taking the time to hear our spiel. And with that, it's off to work on the next episode. 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You are also most welcome to follow our Facebook and Instagram accounts by the same name of Insight Myanmar. And if you're not on Facebook, you can also message us directly at Burma dama@gmail.com. That's bu r ma de hama@gmail.com and we're also active on dama wheel. If you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that forum here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would also like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible especially our two sound engineers Martin combs and darnay. There's of course Zack Hassler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with editing. Drago spend Tita and Andre Francois produce original artwork and a special Mongolian volunteer who is asked to remain anonymous does our social media templates we'd also like to thank everyone who assisted us in arranging for the guests we have interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves for agreeing to come and share such powerful personal stories. Finally, we are immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We also remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and not necessarily reflective of the host, or other podcast contributors. Please also note, as we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show there's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us. This recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes video audio written transcripts and excerpts of any episodes. It is also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we are very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. As you know our podcasts are 100% listener supported. We welcome your contribution in any amount, denomination and transfer method you may give via patreon@patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar via paypal@paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar or by credit card by going to Insight myanmar.org slash donation. In all cases that's Insight Myanmar one word I N si gh T, NY and Mar if you'd like to get especially to support our new run of Coronavirus episodes, please go on the GoFundMe site and search Insight Myanmar to find our campaign. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation please feel free to get in touch with us. Thanks and see you next show.