Transcript: Episode 30: Luissa Burton
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Luissa Burton, which appeared on January 15, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
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Host 01:27
Straight up. Let me just say I'm not the kind of person who typically browses Instagram feeds in my spare time. But it's a good thing. I was doing just that one day about a year ago. Otherwise, I would have never learned about the fascinating guests who appears in this upcoming episode. That day, I happened to be scrolling on my phone and I came across the feet of a colleague, an expat businessman living in Yangon. He posted several photos documenting a British travelers visit to historic and posh Savoy Hotel where he works as a manager. Now sometimes I click on your smartphone thrusts you into a mindless loop as you plunge into some internet rabbit hole. But in this case, it led me to check out more about that person. I was surprised to learn that the traveler was a well known fashion model Louisa Burton. Then when I checked her own posts about her visited the hotel and overall tour around me and Mar. The first thing that piqued my interest was that her own interest in the subway was not in its history or luxury, but it's eco friendly policies. And as I read further, I was even more surprised to learn that she had recently completed a 10 day passion of course, dama Jyoti, a meditation center in Yangon, in the tradition of sn Goenka. Now I was hooked. As I read more, I learned how this famous model had overcome a series of serious skin conditions and pass through several dark nights of the soul before undertaking a rigorous spiritual journey culminating in this Myanmar trip. Needless to say, her story more than held my attention, and I realized it would be worth exploring further on this Insight Myanmar podcast platform where we could share Louise's narrative with our wider meditator audience. I'm honored that Louisa accepted our request, and made time to talk from what I am sure is a very full schedule. With her worldly fame and modeling experience. Louisa might initially appear like an atypical guest for this podcast. And yet well that might be true in one way. The story she tells, as you will hear, clearly fits this Hero's Journey template that characterizes the lives of so many of our previous guests. While the specific details may differ, her story develops through similar checkpoints of spiritual development along the way. So even though some may initially be surprised to hear of a fashion model and beauty queen pursuing an inner spiritual journey, which ultimately culminated in the passion, of course in the golden land, we embrace the reality that Dhamma practitioners run the full gamut of experience. And this podcast platform is dedicated to telling these stories, and not only those of some tiny elite subset of dedicated practitioners. Before we get into this fascinating interview, I would like to welcome What are likely some new listeners to our Insight Myanmar podcast, some of Louise's legions of social media followers. Although you're coming here to listen to her story, I have a personal interest for her life and admiration for her career. The gist of this interview might be quite new for you, and I hope you find the conversation interesting. There's a lot in Louise's discussion of a passionate meditation that is insightful and inspiring. And perhaps the talk will even encourage a few listeners to look into it for the first time. Anyway, now for the interview, in hearing a very different version of what is still familiar till I learned a lot, and I think you will too. So without further ado, here is my talk with Louisa. Today I'm talking with well known international fashion model Louisa Burton. Among her many modeling accomplishments, she was crowned Miss Earth United Kingdom in 2000. 16 and Miss Europe world in 2018. Beyond that, although still so relatively young Louisa has already lived such a productive, exciting and meaningful life. She's a passionate advocate and supporter for environmental sustainability and animal rights. And if that wasn't enough, she's also a world traveler, a humanitarian, documentarian, and mountain climber. So many of our listeners might wonder why this podcast that centers around meditation practice in Burma, or Myanmar is it's officially known, has invited and acclaimed fashion model as a guest. But many who know of her professional fame and other endeavors may not know that she's also a passionate meditator who traveled around Burma, the country widely regarded today as the origin of the modern mindfulness movement. So, Louisa, I'm delighted and honored, you accepted my invitation to sit for an interview image, you're extremely busy schedule. I'm really looking forward to what follows.
Luissa Burton 06:02
Thank you so much. I'm really, really excited to be here. And I'm looking forward to chatting with you some more.
Host 06:08
Yeah, great. Great. So for my first question, I'd like to begin at the beginning and talk about the events that precipitated your spiritual journey. From an early age, you had a life on the runway behind cameras on photoshoots. At just 10 years old, you won a Ralph Lauren child modeling contest in London, leading to being signed with the Ford modeling agency when you were 14. You went on to work with Dwayne The Rock Johnson on the HBO show ballers, you did a music video, celebrate with the rapper, Wiz Khalifa, worked with the Miami Dolphins, probably a lot more in addition that I'm missing here. But what I'm curious about is how those early experiences shaped you. Were you able to take this monumental early success in stride? Or was it challenging to integrate a very unusual lifestyle when you were still young and finding your way in the world?
Luissa Burton 07:00
Mm hmm. Yes. Well, thank you so much for your your kind words. And yes, so it's been a very interesting journey, really. So when I was younger, I never really thought about becoming a model that I actually wanted to be a singer. Until I kind of realized that probably wasn't going to be my future career path. And you know, so I got scouted at a convention, actually, it was called the clothes show in England. And then from there, things just kind of started building. But the interesting thing is I have two skin conditions. So as you can imagine, modeling is an industry that is based on perfection. And I have eczema and psoriasis. And those times can cover my entire body and face. So I had this extra layer of kind of struggle or battle, so to speak, while I was going through my modeling career and going to castings. And when I went to my first casting, and I got my first, you know, negative comment about my skin, you know, I've been called all sorts of not very nice names, that just kind of gave me the a bit lit up of fire in, the only way I could describe it is less of a fire inside me and made me want to just do something more. So if someone tells me No, you can't do something, then I'm like, Well, I really want to know why people with skin conditions, can't do modeling. And, you know, this, this was during a time where the modeling industry was a lot less accepting of different people from all types of backgrounds. And thankfully, we in 2020, now are seeing a lot more diversity in you know, cultures, hair, colors, sizes, and even people with disabilities are able to model now. And I feel that I've been kind of part of that in helping to shift away from this idea that you have to be perfection to be a model. And so yeah, I have my own kind of things to overcome. With that, you know, I had times where I looked in the mirror, and I just wanted to take my skin off. But then I would go and do a photoshoot. And I'd be very confident in front of the camera. And it was just as I was doing this, I just started building up this Hold on a minute. If I can get more visibility and more platform for myself, then I can use this to help other people who are in my position. And so that's kind of where it all started. And I started getting more jobs and booking more campaigns. And then obviously, I went over to America to work for a really, really big modeling agency over there and like you just said some of those big names that but this wasn't fulfilling me as I had expected it to. And I actually found when I was over in America, I fell into a very, very deep depression and lasted you know what A number of months at the time, I didn't know that I was going to get out of it. And it was just this, there was a lot of outside circumstances that happened that led to this. And I feel that that was the pivotal moment that gave me that first awakening to hold on, is this really what I want to be doing is this fulfilling me is this, you know, I've done stuff with the skin condition stuff. But there's more than that there's more than this life, I feel that it's a quite a toxic industry, you know, it has given me so many things and blessings that I am grateful for. But there was those things in the industry that just didn't align with who I really am as a person. And that led me to just kind of look towards beauty pageants, which is quite interesting, because in England, modeling is seen as a glamorous thing to be doing, it's more approved off, whereas beauty pageants are almost laughed at, in a way in England. And I don't really understand that, because modeling for me, it didn't give me that fulfillment, because it was just taking pretty pictures, you know, that there wasn't really anything much more to it. But in pageantry I met so many women who were all supporting each other, empowering each other, who were, you know, picking platforms to actually do things in their communities, and make positive differences. And I didn't come across this in modeling, because in modeling, everyone was so competitive, if the other person got the job, then, you know, it was not an environment that people would boost each other up, it was more tearing each other down. And even though I was actually then in competitions in patterns, it was so much more encouraging. And I just loved the fact that I was then able to pick what I loved, which was environmental activism, skincare, animal rights, and all those kinds of things and, and just go more along my path of building my own personal brand that can truly make a difference. So that was my first what I would call spiritual awakening. And then I had the second one, which was what led me to be in LA. So I let you talk a little bit because I know for a while.
Host 12:21
No, that's a great introduction. I'm glad that you mentioned some background with the modeling and pageant industry. I should preface this question by saying that, personally, I don't know much about these industries. However, I must confess that one thing that's always given me pause about them is this sense that as you've said, you're in a different way, you're selling a kind of perfection. That's not exactly realistic. So as I learned more about your story, as a model, I was immediately struck by how your early challenges have these autoimmune skin conditions. This certainly didn't fit that narrative. And we're not talking about a mild case, you mentioned being called names. I've read in some articles leading up to this, some of those things were very much not nice lizard and leopard. Yeah, you said that. kids wouldn't sit next to you. They were afraid it was contagious, that you felt dirty. And I mean, that must have felt just horrible for you as a child. As you've described elsewhere, this led to a desire to want to cover yourself in public, the skin condition lead to anxiety, which in turn can worsen the skin condition, this kind of worsening cycle. So it's just amazing to me that you ended up in the one profession where showing your skin is the name. So how were you able to overcome these early experiences in mindset.
Luissa Burton 13:38
So it was really just believing in myself. And I've always had this internal inner guidance and knowing that this is you know, what I'm supposed to be doing. And though even though it might not have led to where I thought it was going, or it led me on to a different path, I've always just kind of followed my heart in that way. And anytime that someone said something that wasn't very nice, it just spurred me on more, and just gave me more impetus to say no, I want representation for people with skin conditions and I saw it as an opportunity to actually be someone that could make a change and it's not just about skin conditions. When I climbed the mountain and the Mr. sash to the summit. It was actually a symbol of anyone that has any limitation that they have. You know, that could be a disability or self confidence issues or it doesn't have to be someone with a skin condition and because I was always told you'll never be a successful model. You'll never make it as a beauty queen or you know laughing at me almost because it is an industry based on perfection and reaching the summit of the mountain with the the sash which represents perfection. Was that symbol of you can overcome the negative have been have other people as long as you follow what you know, that you should be doing, and is right in your heart. And that's always what I have based, you know, my kind of decisions on.
Host 15:12
Right, and you're talking about the negative opinions of others. But you also mentioned having your own sense of like lack of self confidence and having as many people doing an outside face and an inside face. And so I'm curious, like, How were the sense of confidence and self worth develop, because you reference having a general anxiety about any kind of social interactions, even leaving the house, to having no fear of letting it out, I had read that in contests and beauty contests in China and Albania, the judges were especially impressed that you wore a bikini despite having certain skin conditions. So where did this ability to this fearlessness to change coming from a place of anxiety before? How did this so dramatically come about?
Luissa Burton 15:57
So it's not really a dramatic thing. It's a bit of a cliche, quote, but felt the fear and done it anyway. So you know, every time that I had to step out, or in a way, you have to kind of put on put on a face that every time you go onto the stage or performing you know, it's a show or when you go out on and do a catwalk it's a show, but you just have to, to talk to yourself beforehand, and just kind of breathe belief into yourself continuously and choose that over fear every single time. And eventually, you start to get better at it. Like I never, I never just woke up and had self confidence and self belief. One day, that didn't happen, it was a continual making choices, that were going to move me in the direction of what I want, until I got better at loving myself. That's the only way I can describe it, you know, and I have suffered with anxiety I have suffered with depression. And those definitely have impact on my skin conditions. So when there are external circumstances that, you know, make me stressed, then my skin conditions come up more. And this is also why meditations been fundamental in helping with reducing stress and therefore reducing skin conditions. Because I do believe that personally, those things are internal as well as external, you know, you can't just treat the outside, you have to treat the inside. And I do think that, you know, sometimes addictions that I might have had, or, you know, like, with cigarettes, I used to smoke a lot of cigarettes on as a model. And now I don't and I think that these are things that need to be sorted out within my own soul. And I found that once I did the inner work on myself, those outer things started to fall away, as I naturally started to love myself. Does that make sense?
Host 17:50
Oh, yeah, it absolutely does. And that's be exploring that that inner journey more as we go along here, this inner journey of this newfound confidence of the inner leading to the outter, that did lead to a number of contracts. And I think, I'd like to think that says something about the values of the modeling industry in the 21st century. And on this note, you've said previously, quote, I'm passionate about not letting your skin conditions hold you back and reaching for your dreams. If I can find success in an industry that is solely based on how you look, I want to be able to help other women with skin conditions, find confidence in their own lives to end quote. So that's really inspiring. And it's neat to see someone using the platform like you have to promote such wholesome messages to young people these days. So you're attempting to bring this belief system to the industry at large. And I guess I'm wondering how that's going overall in the fashion or modeling industry?
Luissa Burton 18:44
Hmm. Yeah. And, you know, it's not just for the fashion and modeling industry, I, I've learned a lot of lessons going through this journey that I signed up for. And as as I learned these things, I realized that this can be applied to a wider audience as well, because so I started coaching, I went and got an accreditation, because I wanted to move away from the modeling stuff and the patent tree because once I won Miss Europe, I thought, How can I now take everything that I've learned and help more people? And so I started training and speaking, so that I can start sharing my story effectively, because I do believe that if we are able to share the problems and things that we've overcome own or our traumas, then that helps other people to step out of their darkness and into their life. Sure, and
Host 19:35
that's one of the points of this conversation now.
Luissa Burton 19:36
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, they can look at me and think, okay, so she, she's managed to overcome these things. And it is some people who might not have anyone to talk to it might give them some hope. And you know, I remember seeing people who shared their stories and their vulnerability, and that is where your value lies. And so I've started this kind of movement, hashtag role models, which is just helping people to Understand that every single person is a role model. You don't have to have a title for that. You don't have to be Mr. Report. You don't have to be a doctor or a lawyer. Everyone has influence in their community. So I'm changing the meaning of the word influencer because some I do laugh sometimes when people are like, Oh, you're an influencer? I'm like, Well, I do post pictures on Instagram. But I wouldn't call myself an influencer. But I do influence I guess. But you are an influencer, too. And they're like, Really? But I don't know. And I know you are. Because think about it. What What have you overcome in your life, every single person has a story. And if you share that, and you can share these things with people in your local community, your friends or you know, your school, then you have massive influence. And, and that's what I want to do. I'm empowering people to see the value in in themselves. And so a lot of the coaching I do now, and some things that I'm working on is that, you know, beauty queens are known for world peace, a stereotype in my kind of branding, I guess, I'm calling itself peace, like a form of self peace coaching, because there's a lot of people out there who are talking about self love, etc. But for me, anytime I went through those really dark nights of the soul, and I had that inner turmoil, and you can feel it in your stomach, you know, in your belly, that kind of unrest. I don't know if you've ever experienced this course. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so it's like that, how can I, I find that peace within myself. And you know, you start cert, and I want to take that. And also couple it with my story, which was as a model as a beauty queen, and now as an environmental advocate, and use that to help people who, you know, not just models or people's skin conditions, but this can apply to everyone and anyone, like you've just shared with me now you've experienced that. And so, you know, I know that this is my purpose. And I know that all of these things happened for a reason. And yeah, I wouldn't be sat here today talking with you, had they not
Host 21:56
as I'm grateful for them. Right, sure. In hearing your story, you know, what you call like the dark night of the soul that a number of the conversations we have with people on this podcast that are on some kind of spiritual journey, it ends up their story ends up taking on kind of a hero's journey connotation, where, you know, they set out to do something, and they have a struggle, they have some kind of pitfall or some real dark night of the soul, as you say. And then through that pain and suffering and vulnerability, find, in our case, often some liberating teachings of the Buddha, the practice of meditation and, and integrating in their own way. And those journeys take a lot of different forms. I mean, we've talked to meditation teachers, and lifelong monks and nuns and, and others. And so the the shape that that particular journey is taking is specific to the person that the individual that we're talking to, but there are certain kind of checkpoints along the way. And I think one of those checkpoints certainly is that moment, when you do have those dark nights of the soul where you you don't know what you're going to do next. And in that darkness and vulnerability can sometimes arise a certain sense of purpose or drive that one wouldn't necessarily normally have when caught up in the flow of worldly immaterial things.
23:05
Mm hmm.
Luissa Burton 23:06
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, had I not experienced those things, then I don't think I would have, I needed that pain to help me shift my myself from from model and then to between and then between now because I wouldn't have had that evolution. And so you know, the pain is what, I'm actually the most grateful for those moments, because I wouldn't have gotten to this point otherwise. Right?
Host 23:33
Yeah, that's interesting. So getting into what you said about being an online influencer. And for any listeners who don't know, it's a term that refers to people with a large social media following and are able to promote products or ideas quickly and efficiently. So your many followers on the various platforms that would definitely put you in that category. And you've tried to use the word a different way, as you describe now and elsewhere. You also said, quote, being an influencer is when you are able to provide value to a life or a cause and produce results, you do not have to have influence because 20,000 people like one photo, true influence comes from what you do and the example you set. Change is created from the consistency of your words and actions. And as a result, others will rise up to the challenge to join you. I want to shift the way we view what authentic influence is and inspire the world to do the same and quote, so that really goes against the social media grain where people evaluate success, you know, by the number of clicks or likes, they get on a certain kind of platform. And you've enacted this belief in your personal brand, and you've tried to use this awesome power of the internet for good. So how has that mission been going? You know, it's
Luissa Burton 24:44
going really well, whenever I speak with people about it that they say Yeah, actually, that's true. Why? Why are we you know, you meet someone and the first thing that they asked me was, Oh, you know, what's your Instagram so they can you know, check out what your father Are all and it's just not? I don't know, it doesn't sit right with me and Okay, yes, I know that I have followings on these things. But, you know, that is I'm living in a world that that is the case. And and again, like with the modeling industry and the skin conditions, it is something that I would like to change. And I had a 16 year old girl actually messaged me a few months ago and she said, How can I share and get my following up on social media? And I said, Well, what is it that you want to do, and once we dug a little deeper, it wasn't that she wanted to be famous, or that she wanted to load the following. She just wanted people to appreciate her music that she created. And, and I said, you know, don't focus on the number, shift your focus away from posting things that you think people are going to like and people and focus on what you love doing. And that is really putting your energy into your talent and your creativity. And just post that and be consistent with it. And then you will find that you will attract the right people. And they will, you know, be people that are interested in they'll start sharing it with other people. And I just said just just focus on that. Forget about a number you're young, you have you have a long time, you know, to develop yourself. And I just it doesn't make me sad that, I guess that that's what people are basing themselves on now, like, you get a lot of young people and they say, Oh, you know, that's what I need to be, I need to have this number to be working. And it's such a shame. And it's like in the modeling industry as well, I had to have a certain waist measurement to be correct, if you know, and what I love now about being myself is if I do accept a modeling shoot, you know, it doesn't matter about what my waist measurement is I used to it was terrible, I would sometimes I would sleep in a corset, and I wouldn't eat or drink anything before I went into the agency to, you know, make sure I had a certain waist measurement. And when I look back at this, it's ludicrous to me because that, you know, that's self abuse, you're embodying, and we're encouraging people to base their worth on numerical values in so many different ways. And yeah, I just want to kind of lead that movement away from Focus On Service, focus on your creativity, and don't focus so much on the number,
Host 27:25
right. And it seems that when you're the modeling shoots, you're doing now that you're really doing it on your own terms, and according to your values and some of these concerns and values, they arose on your journey to me and Martin meditation, which we'll get to but to set the scene to what led you to want to go to me and modern startup up the passionate meditation practice. You early on had a concern about environmental issues, you saw that there was this one time unsustainability in the fashion industry. There's these heavy doses of chemicals and skin products for hide feathers, etc. So this inspired in you this interest in seeking out non toxic products, alternative spiritual healing methods, which we'll we'll get to in a moment, and a general concern for animal welfare. So from what I understand, you now insist, when you do shoots that you'll only use non toxic vegan cruelty free beauty products on photoshoots. And sometimes even wear recycled or organic attire. So I really admire the stance you're taking. And I'm curious, how has it been received by the industry or by other models?
Luissa Burton 28:27
Well, thank you. So it's definitely been a process. So you know, in my earlier days, I call it I was less conscious just about general things. So you know, I would have leather handbags, and you might see pictures from you know, 10 years ago, or whatever, or, you know, not even as long ago as that where I might have a handbag, and it might be a leather bag. And you know, I got rid of them or sold them. And then I used to eat me, I used to eat, you know, all kinds of, you know, meat that you can get in the supermarket. And now it was a general process and just waking up to environmental issues and learning. And again, when I first started using makeup I never looked is this cruelty free. I never looked at what is in this. And as I got into the modeling industry. And the first thing was when I got asked to use furs, and that was something that I always was completely against. And there was no way that I was going to be using first. So bear in mind, I was 14 when I started modeling. So you know, I was quite young. And then as I started continuing in the industry, that's when I started to notice the the waste that was happening in terms of the clothing, like you know, the clothing industry is the second biggest polluter to the planet. And you know, fashion has so many seasons that is constantly overturning and then you start thinking about it more and you start to think Hold on a minute, this this is a lot of waste. And then gradually I started learning more about what's going into the product. So because of the skin conditions, I was realizing that hold on a minute, this might be be irritating my skin. And it just built and built and built until I got to 2016 where I had, like you said before, had the opportunity to go to Miss Earth and represent England. And that was where my advocacy has really started to grow. Because I that was when it was when I have that title. That was when I really had a position to be able to say, Okay, this is what I believe in. And I don't want to use this, I don't want to use these kind of products. And it's a shame that you kind of had to get into that position in the first place, but people don't listen to you otherwise, especially in the modeling industry. So but now I am in that position. And I have this, I think, you know, if you do have some form of platform, speak about it. And thankfully, you know, it's been really well received. So like I said before pageantry in England, people always kind of laughed, because I saw it as a bit frivolous. But when I won Miss Earth, England, it had a really great reception with the British people, because I was sharing with them that the pattern is about environmental awareness and the reception that I would receive from news papers, or people wanting to do articles, or even companies wanting to collaborate with me, because it had that cause and it's a genuine cause. And Miss Earth really is pioneering I feel in the patent space, they were always far ahead of their time in that and yeah, I just I think it's, I'm really appreciative of the, the reception that I have had, but I always like to kind of push you push it a bit more to say once, if people are comfortable with it, then I'm like, Okay, so let's step it up a little bit and see, see what else we can do. So that's why I might you know, my work is continual, I'll always be learning more and helping spread awareness. And I think that if you are spreading awareness for a cause, the best thing is not to do it in a judgmental way. You know, I used to eat meat, I'm not going to turn around and say to people are terrible, you're terrible, because you're eating meat. I think just share information with people help them to learn the knowledge. And then if they decide that they want to go that route, you know, that's up to them. But it would be hypocritical of me having in the past, you know, not used products that might have been cruelty free, because I was less aware to then go and shame other people for it.
Host 32:29
Sure. Well, people learn things according to their own time and place. So the conditions need to arise at a particular moment in time for that insight like to go off and because that goes off for one person to then try to take that light and hit someone else over the head with it with a hammer and say, Look, when can you see this too? That's that's your trajectory. That's not theirs. But, you know, that doesn't mean you can't do anything. It just, it's just a while, at least in my own journey, realizing a wise discernment of when and how and where I say and talk about certain things rather than just like, I learned this and it's great. And now everyone should also be doing what I'm doing. And if you're not, then you know you're lost.
Luissa Burton 33:07
Absolutely.
Host 33:08
Yeah. So you, you mentioned how you use eat meat. I guess you call yourself I might not be pronouncing this right. Right. A rudisha terian. Is that right?
Luissa Burton 33:16
reduce the Tyrion
Host 33:17
usin? terian? Okay, can you hear about that?
Luissa Burton 33:19
Yeah, you bet. It was good.
Host 33:21
First time I've heard that word.
Luissa Burton 33:23
Well, I kind of I think I made it up unless I I think I made up. I'm not gonna claim copyright on it. But um, yeah, I, I gradually reduced my meat intake. And now you know, at home, I'm vegan. But there are times for instance, when I went and climbed the mountain in Russia, you know, I won't eat meat. But you know, if there's some I had to eat the chocolate to physically be able to get up the mountain because there was nothing else for me to eat. And obviously, that has dairy in it. Another word you could say is flexitarian with some things, but yeah, dairy or maybe a bit of fish. But I prefer to be vegan where possible, just because, one, I think that you know, the environmental reasons, obviously. And then also for my health, I personally have felt the benefits of it. Personal energy wise, my skin's glowing, more gut health issues as well. If I go back to eating certain things, now, it's quite obvious if I've eaten them, whereas before, it's almost like I've become more sensitive to certain things that I didn't use to be so sensitive to. And my skin as well. My skin is definitely much much better. But that is obviously a combination of multiple different things. So yeah, I just feel like that.
Host 34:46
Right. Have you seen it play any kind of role in your spiritual practice going more on a vegan diet?
Luissa Burton 34:51
Yes. So I do notice if I veer away from it and also, you know, heavier things like breads as well. pastors, I start to get heartburn issues and all these kinds of things when I want to eat them again, you know, that's not even being vegan, that's just different types of foods that I've had to really become a lot more conscious of my diet. And when I stray away from it, I notice a difference. But when I am very much eating well, I find that I receive guidance, intuitive guidance much more clearly. And, you know, it depends what the people who are listening to this belief because we all have different different things that will leave. But for me, thoughts and ideas or flashes of inspiration come to me much easier when I am eating more clean. Hmm,
Host 35:47
can you give an example that?
Luissa Burton 35:49
Um, can I give an example? The way I can describe it as I have, I feel like I have a clearer head and there's less fuzzy cloud. The only way I can describe it?
Host 36:05
Yeah, yeah, great. I remember in my own experience, I was at a meditation Center, the passionate center in Japan, and was going through the process of learning the meditation and becoming so sensitive. And I was, as I was walking around the center, day after day, I started to realize where the ants were walking and paying such care to the first time of my life really not enough that I would go out of my way to step on ants, but I just never pay attention. And because I didn't have anything else to do, I was just walking in a careful way to not step on them. And I ended up staying at the Center for longer I I stayed on as a server, I sat more courses and with that sensitivity growing when I would go out into the world. And it's funny enough, I was actually raised vegetarian by hippie parents. And then I had meat growing up. Never a lot, but I wanted to be like the other kids. But when I went out of the center, and would order me there's this incredible disconnect of like, I'm here at this meditation center being so careful to like project the fragility of this life of an ant. And then suddenly, I go outside and go into a restaurant. It's like, Oh, yeah, give me the sushi or the beef or something like that. And it was, um, it was just like, I've got to look at what I'm doing and what what my values are and that, and I actually never decided to become I don't want to say become a vegetarian, because I was earlier, my childhood, but I never made a conscious decision that I was going to take that on again, I just I never wanted meat I, at when when it was offered to me, I just was like, No, I don't think I want meat or fish today. And are you vegetarian? No, no, no, I just don't want it this meal. And after like, one or two years of that, I was like, okay, maybe I have to adopt this title. Because I don't, I don't see myself going back. But Have there been any favorite foods for you, like you've, they used to really like that you miss
Luissa Burton 37:48
that I miss, sometimes I do see other people eating things that I used to love. And I do think I can appreciate that would be nice. You know, but I just don't want it anymore. And, and, and to add to what you were just saying as well. And I do think that life exists on a spectrum. And things aren't, you know, necessarily black and white. So, you know, putting and labeling or vegan or I eat meat or you know, some days, you Everything is flowing, everything is flexible. So, you know, it's, it's just about, okay, this is the decision that's in front of me in this moment, I can make a conscious choice to do something that I know is gonna make me feel better, because personally, those things make me feel better. And I feel better when I'm eating a certain way. Or I can, you know, choose differently, and there's no right or wrong, but it's just making those decisions every time that you're presented with them. And personally, things are brighter for me. Colors are much brighter, I actually get quite bright, light sensitivity now as well as my hearing. And I feel a lot more sensitive to pain. So for instance, if I see meats, I don't have if someone wants to eat meat next to me at dinner, you know, I don't have a problem with that. But I can feel pain almost just from looking at it. And also I found myself this is not on the meat topic, but a lot more sensitive to violence in movies, television shows and also I don't watch the news now either I was in a cab the not long ago, and I actually asked the driver to switch it off because it just started to I can't listen to these things. You know, I mean, I can if it's important, but I prefer not to because I feel the pain almost.
Host 39:44
Mm hmm. Right? Right. And more recently, you proclaimed yourself the official green Queen, and a title that you hope will be more of a socially conscious leader and in your words, quote, raise the healthy and positive vibrations of the planet and invite others to do the same. Can you tell us a bit more about your intentions for this?
Luissa Burton 40:04
Yes. So in one sentence, I bring peace to myself first and then to others and the planet. So when I had to hand the crown over, and kind of close the door on the modeling life and pageantry, I wanted to continue the service work that I've been doing. And the way to do that was to literally give myself my own title, which was the official green Queen that kind of encompasses everything that I've ever done in this journey. And, you know, green being the environment and Queen being the, the history of my story, and then just use what I've built in my career to then say, Okay, what can I do now? How can I bring more awareness to this extremely pressing issue that is not going away anytime soon? And unless we start looking at it, which is the environmental issues, we've transgressed three boundaries, planetary boundaries, which means that we're far overreaching, what we should be, and yeah, how can I help other people to just become more conscious of what they're consuming? And to just maybe just plant a seed, you know, again, not tell people, you should be doing this, but oh, maybe I can, maybe I can make this choice. So just through social media, through I'm a writer for a magazine through my speaking engagements, and sharing things, just help people to awaken to a different way. And that is, I guess, you could call it like a lifestyle concept. So through my way of living and sharing that on social media, people can see that, and then, you know, I'll share brands as well that are helping the planet or work with a lot of big corporation companies that you know, of any corporation is no, I don't, yes, so a B Corp is a certificate that a company has to get to prove that they are putting people and planet before profit. And so a lot of companies now are getting certified. And it's a very, very rigorous testing program. And, you know, so I'll promote brands that have these kind of certificates or you know, that I feel are in alignment with my values. And then yeah, just share it.
Host 42:20
That's great. So obviously, what you're doing is gaining attention. I heard that in November of last year, you were invited for a private meeting with the Dalai Lama and India, recognizing some of your humanitarian and eco efforts. So what was that experience? Like?
Luissa Burton 42:34
Yeah, so whenever anyone repeats that back to me, I do find it a little mind blowing, because it's almost like a dream. That was, you know, when I was younger, I always kind of had this feeling that like, one day, you know, when you're younger, and you have people that you look up to, they're like, Oh, I'm gonna meet the queen, or I'm gonna meet the DeLorean. I'm gonna meet David Attenborough. You know, he was on my list. I'm yet to meet David Attenborough. And if anyone knows him, please do get in touch. But definitely the Dalai Lama, I was always very inspired by his quotes. And, and I don't actually have a religion. And I did go to a Catholic school when I was younger, my parents, a Christian, but they weren't Catholic, but and then they never christened me. And that's because they said, I remember when I was very young, you can choose what you want to be when you grow up, which was, you know, I think that was quite cool. For some parents to, you know, say that I could choose and but I always remember thinking, you know, if I, if I was gonna choose, I'd quite like the the Buddhist concepts, but I never really went in and did that. And then now I just, I don't really have a religion, I just improve every single day. But, yeah, meeting him was cool. This has to be a better word that I could say. But yeah, it was it was it was pretty amazing.
Host 44:04
Huh, huh. That's great. So after hearing how your journey as a model progressed up to this point, we're getting to the core of what I'm really interested in exploring. And that's your experience with the passionate meditation, the spiritual journey, that little by little step by step led you to taking up a serious rigorous meditation practice. Before going into that, I want to ask the most obvious overarching question, perhaps, have you found any conflict between being a passionate meditator on your own spiritual journey and being a recognizable international fashion model?
Luissa Burton 44:42
So the answer is no. And I'm curious to understand or learn where where you think that conflict would be.
Host 44:52
There might not be conflict it was more of just a question if there if there was I guess some again, this is coming. from someone completely outside the industry who hasn't had many experiences and maybe maybe has some some biases with it that you're definitely speaking to in this conversation, but like, as we talked about the kind of perfections of the industry, or the the certain kind of images to put out there, which sometimes might veer towards the artificial or towards the ideal, and the inner journey of a meditator being an exploration of what is in whatever form it is. And so if you have found, like any contrast or conflict between those experiences, and perhaps if not, then, then that's also equally of interest.
Luissa Burton 45:39
Yeah, so I know, I didn't, and I think by the time I reached the point of the passionate people, people knew me to be someone that was followed my own path anyway. And so I, I think by that point, I didn't really have too much surprise, though, from friends or family or, or anyone? And yeah, I mean, I did, I did leave kind of the modeling industry a few years ago now. So it's more under my own brand, the official green Queen, which doesn't incorporate spirituality and meditation. So you know, that the people that I surround myself with now have obviously changed as well. Sure, sure, from the environment that I was in before. So these are the kinds of people that get it, they, you know, they want to do it themselves. You know, for them. This is something that is an amazing tool is 1000s of years of history that is helped so many people, and it's just yeah, so I think, had I done this a number of years ago, then the answer would have been Yes. But because my external reality has changed, then no, that actually hasn't been conflict from what I've experienced.
Host 46:54
Right, good. Good answer. And I guess I'm curious if you mentioned if you had taken and I think when someone takes a course is so valuable, you know, what stage they're at how receptive they are, to certain things, what their their pain is, at the moment of taking, but if you had taken and maybe I don't know if you can answer this question, because it is so hypothetical. But I'd be curious to know, like, if you would take in a course much earlier in your modeling career, you you mentioned that there might have been a conflict at that point. Do you know what? How that what shape that conflict would have would have taken what things would have been in contrast with each other?
Luissa Burton 47:28
Mm hmm. Well, first of all, the conflict would have been with myself, because I think there's, I wouldn't have even thought about it. And I think I would have, you know, about 10 years ago, I remember people speaking about spirituality, and I just looked at them very confused. I was I just didn't understand. And so that the conflict number one would have been with myself and then number two, it would have probably, there would have been judgment, I guess, because, you know, you're doing something outside of the norm. And even though the modeling industry properly likes to see itself, as you know, very forward thinking and groundbreaking, you know, every group has its attitudes or norms or, you know, socially accepted kind of things. And and that would definitely have been something that was outside of what would have been thought of to have been normal in the modeling industry. So there definitely would have been questions. Yeah.
Host 48:30
Right. So kind of following in line with this, this intersection. I'm curious how the Dhamma wisdom you've developed, born from your recent meditation practice and spiritual background, has informed the very worldly concepts you have dealt with in the modeling industry, I'm sure you might have thought a bit about the idea and concept of beauty. So as we just discussed, you were personally confronted on your own journey with very obvious imperfections on the skin in an industry that promotes this idealized sense of physical beauty. then fast forward to today, where you're encouraging your followers not to fall into an addiction of phone apps that beautify the face, or ultimately make young people uncomfortable with how they actually look. So I wonder how you personally have explored this notion of sense desire, and its relation to beauty, especially as someone on an inner spiritual journey and having taken a passionate course, to be more specific, I could say like in Buddhist philosophy, at least, sense desires and cravings are things that we work to try to develop detachment from. So the put in the form of a question, Where have you landed with your present understanding of the concept of beauty? And to follow up on that? Where does this understanding fit into like a wider spiritual view where the aim is to come out of any sense of a dualistic notion of liking and disliking of calling this beautiful and this non beautiful concepts having no objective reality. So where have you had the worldly concept and, and in the profession of beauty with the spiritual experience and wisdom of beauty being somewhat of a dualistic notion?
Luissa Burton 50:16
Yeah, that's a beautiful question.
Host 50:18
Thank you.
50:20
Beautiful.
Host 50:21
You're done your time. Yeah.
Luissa Burton 50:24
No. And I'm grateful for that. Yes. So. So there's definitely been a awakening within myself in terms of how what has shifted for me from the way that you know, I used to think and the way that I think now, can I talk about? Like, when I had the eating disorders, and how that that was like a struggle?
Host 50:44
You can answer it any way that's truthful and honest for you? Absolutely.
Luissa Burton 50:48
Could you put it into like a one sentence because that was like a lot. If you could put it into a one sentence, then I can focus more clearly on the question.
Host 50:57
Okay. Sure. I'll try.
Luissa Burton 50:59
It was an amazing question. Very often three different avenues.
Host 51:04
That's, that's great. That's great. That means at the critical part of the conversation, so yeah, so I'll do my best. It's also as challenging for me because it is, it is a big concept of holding your mind. But to rephrase it, basically, it's this sense of beauty. And in and again, anytime I speak about the fashion or modeling industry, I'm aware of my bias and ignorance. So if even the question being formed is is not quite accurate, you know, please do correct me, I don't, I don't want to be speaking out of turn with that. But from an outsider, I see the fashion and beauty industry as as having some sense of an objective beauty. I mean, I think in life in general, in the worldly sense, it's, it's everywhere, right? It's um, it's the innate to being humans and liking this and disliking that this is beautiful, this is ugly, this is clean, this is dirty. And going through this sense of craving and aversion liking and disliking beautiful and ugly, but certainly the fashion industry more than others are built on the promotion of this worldly concept. And you've, for most of your professional career been involved and some sense of working within the confines of of what beauty is and how its represented. And this being contrasted with a Buddhist sense and Buddhist philosophy, that we're trying to get out of any sense of a dualistic notion of liking or disliking, saying, This is beautiful, this is ugly. So if I were to boil that down to one simple question, Where do you land on what the concept of beauty is? Now? How do you looking at it from this worldly professional sense? And from a Buddhist sense of, of coming away from sense desire? What inner journey Have you gone through, and you might still be in that journey? So it's not looking for like a succinct answer that we're all going to understand. But where have you been along that journey? And trying to understand and conceptualize how to understand what beauty is, according to these different ways of looking at it? I don't know if that helps you? Or it makes it worse?
Luissa Burton 52:59
Yes, yeah. No, no, that helps. And it was it was about getting comfortable with myself first, and picking likes and dislikes on myself to begin with. Because, you know, in the modeling industry, you're critiqued a lot about, you know, this isn't good enough, that isn't good enough. And I remember I used to look in the mirror and be like, Oh, this or that, you know, and then it's just hold on a minute, every part of me is perfect. You know, and that's not to be said in it in a big headed sense at all, everyone, every single part of us of every single one of us should be grateful for what we have what it was this mind shift into how the mind body does so much for me. And what it does, for me is beautiful. So that kind of helped me to release this picking little parts of picking myself apart, when I look in the mirror about oh, you know, this bit isn't good, or that bit isn't good. And then it was taking that and then applying that to you know, other people because we've all in the past and at times can catch ourselves making judgments, you know, about people like when people first see you, you know, they always say all first impression counts. And, you know, and so that people encourage you to, like, make a good first impression, whatever that you know, what, what does that even mean? Like, you just just don't know. And so it's just taking that and just applying that and, and just understanding that there's beauty in in every single person and in in everything. And you can see this in in the modeling industry, this this shift from how it used to be very just, you know, tall, skinny, white blondes. And you can see that as we're growing and I developed that in myself and collectively that we are you can see that shift in the modeling industry happening to like, I don't know if you've seen Rihanna recently her show, and she included transgender models plus size models, people of all different shapes, sizes, everything you could imagine and Victoria's Secret has said Few years ago, Oh, we don't want to include diverse models or people with disabilities, because it ruins the fantasy.
Host 55:07
Oh, interesting.
Luissa Burton 55:09
Rihanna's show, it had a picture of people from all different backgrounds, and it just got rave reviews. And it says that is the fantasy, you know, and everyone was in underwear. And it was just it was such a powerful picture. And Brianna was stood in the middle. And also I don't know who Harry Styles is. Yeah. Or one direction. Yeah. So recently, he was pictured on the cover of Vogue in a female dress and inside as well, and there was a full kind of spread with him in female clothing, but like, you know, kind of made fashionable and etc. And there was a huge outcry. Well, there was two different there was a polarity there was there was people who were saying, Oh, this is great. And there was people who were an outcry. Well, that isn't, that isn't masculine. You know, where did all the men go? You know, I think it's great. And maybe if I'd have seen that shoot 10 years ago, I might have thought, oh, like, why is he wearing the dress? But now I kind of see it as well, why not? Why Why just wear the dress, you know, so it I've had, I can definitely see a mindset shifts within myself from how I might have thought about certain things. And through, you know, the passion or in this journey, I can see in myself how I think differently or respond or react differently to the same exact same things.
Host 56:27
Right. And I'm really intrigued by your use of the word fantasy just now because we're talking about the sense of idealized beauty and a beauty that is very narrow. And that's defining in the world that I mean, you're right, it's very non fantasy, it's something that is trying to meet the height of idealized notion is a fantasy of something that you want to live in that is not grounded in the world. And meditation is as much opposite as up as you can get. And from the example you gave of Rihanna, and show, it sounds like the definition of beauty is going from a narrow point of, as you described, like tall, white, skinny women, to accomplishing people of all different sexual orientations and sizes, and ages and body shapes and everything else. So the sense of beauty is being expanded beyond what was a more traditional sense in a fantasy sense that maybe other agencies do today, or that was more common in the industry before, I guess the next part of this question is, then there's still so it's great that the sense of beauty is being expanded and more people can fall in the rubric of what is beautiful. However, there still is a difference between a wider sense of beauty a bigger net, where more people fit in, and the Buddhist philosophical approach where any dualistic sense of liking or not liking or beauty or non beauty is itself something to come out of. So it seems like there still is some gap between one mindset and the other.
Luissa Burton 57:54
Absolutely, that I mean, it's a continual process. Sure. And everyone is at different levels. And the fashion industry is also, you know, a different level far, like you said, with that gap, to Buddhist teachings, but we're moving in the right direction. And the more people that are represented, and the more accepting these things, I think it's just going to build and build. And I think we are a long way off still, from ever kind of reaching that point, if we ever reach it. And, you know, that would be amazing. But yeah, it's just about, I just keep doing the work that I'm doing. And then everyone else who is fighting for their causes. So you know, the people like Rihanna, or the movement with females, like of color, wanting to be more represented, or, you know, breaking their barriers, like, I'll break my barriers that I can do, and then everyone else who is being their role model in their own way, just keep pushing and breaking their barriers and limitations and, and the ideas in other people's minds of what's accepted, you know?
Host 58:57
Yeah, sure. And I think also like, we would be living in a fantasy world ourselves, if we just expected that everyone should be acting non dualistic Lee tomorrow and industries as well. We're not, we're certainly not there yet. So Sir, I like what you say that on the road to a more non dualistic approach of coming out of sense. Desire is a widening scope in terms of who could fit in that that rubric of what's considered beautiful and wonderful.
Luissa Burton 59:20
And just to add to that, as well, I noticed within myself having to let go of a lot of things that I was holding on to so I struggled a lot with eating disorders when I was younger. And that actually, I don't think was even to do with the modeling industry. It was actually me coping with my own kind of internal traumas when I was younger, but it was obviously exacerbated in the modeling industry, but it wasn't what people would think which would be anorexia, I had binge eating, you know, which didn't show on the outside because I was very, very skinny and I never threw up or anything, but I just I did a lot of exercise also, I would eat a lot too. When uncomfortable feeling came up and stuff those feelings down with whatever food that I could find. And then you know, as a result, I might may restrict the food in a certain way, like, like, eat less or do more exercise. And I struggled with that for a very, very, very, very long time. And then it didn't help modeling industry, and also trying to be a certain number for the agency, etc. And that was a very long cycle that I had to try and break free from, and only took me until, you know, a few years ago where I released that from myself. And now I find myself enjoying cooking, I used to enjoy cooking whatsoever and learning more about what I'm putting into my body. And, and you know, but I had to release that perfection in my mind if I have to be a certain way, or I have to look a certain way, or I have to be a certain number. And once that when it was like a whole weight lifted from my shoulders, and I was like, wow, I don't have, I'm striving to be something always when I attain that, or that number. It was never good enough. And then it was, again, like I said, I did a lot of internal work. I never tried to fix the actual external issue of the eating problem. It was internal work. Well, actually, no, I did, I did try to fix it, and it kept failing. But it was when I then did the internal work of what was going on within myself, then again, that fell away. And it just kind of it just didn't happen anymore.
Host 1:01:27
Right? That's great. So just these concepts again, of like perfection, and a sense of fantasy, a sense of of trying to fit into some objective standing and going through an inner journey that is able to let go of that need or have those those judgments. And that's ultimately I assume what led to your trip to Burma and your meditation experience there, which is where I learned to view, you took a 10 day meditation course at dama. Jyoti is the name of the center. That's a meditation center in the tradition of sn Glinka. And what I found quite surprising was that this was actually your first experience of Buddhist meditation. The reason I found that surprising was that many foreigner meditators that I know of, will take courses and other places around the world. And then they'll go to Burma to deepen their practice. And since kind of this this origin where the technique came from, but as you told me, before the interview, you felt called to come to me, and there were long waiting lists at the English Vipassana center. And you had this underlying presence and feeling that you just simply had to go to me and Mar, this is where you said, you experienced this dark night of the soul. And what's even more amazing, you arranged all of this a week before the course began. So it was really something of a spontaneous trip that just brought you there. Can you share more about the experiences that brought you to the golden land?
Luissa Burton 1:02:44
I yeah, absolutely. And what is probably would be even more shocking if I if I told you that I barely even meditated before I went, hmm.
Host 1:02:57
You know, you jumped in the ocean.
Luissa Burton 1:02:59
Yes. So I had done meditation on and off, and I always had this thing, you know, I'd go to a class or I kept trying, I kept trying, and I just could never get into it, I would do five minutes. And I just, I just couldn't do it. And so this came as a quite a big surprise to me. Hold on a minute, I can't even sit still for five minutes and meditate. And then this just I, like I said, I went through the second dark night of the soul. And I remembered this conversation that I had in Bali, a couple years earlier with someone that had just come off of the passionate retreat. And I'd never heard of it at the time. And they were telling me all about it. And it sounded very interesting. But then I forgot about it, you know, and I just kind of carried on with my life. And then the second set of circumstances happened that really, really caused me to go within and look for answers. And it was in that kind of darkest moments where I just got this kind of the only way I can describe is in my ears. very passionate. And I just thought started thinking about it. And I just was I just knew that that's what I needed to do. And I didn't know how I always say the how works itself out I didn't know how I was going to do considering you know, based on my other meditation performances, but I just knew that I had to do it. And so like I said, I looked up online and there was a huge waiting list for England. And I think I know I need to I need to do this now. I just needed to do it now and I couldn't get into England like I said and then I forgot about it again. And then like with the passionate I heard Miramar, Mia Mamma mia Mama mia mamma, Mia ma I've never saw you know, I would love to go to me about but I've never thought about going there. You know, immediately or right away. Now, why am I hearing me Mr. So then I put two and two together. Because it's almost like you know when you thinking, but then those thoughts are very different to the words me and mom for passionate I was receiving those were like flashes of inspiration as the only way I can describe it wasn't thoughts that I was consciously thinking they just kind of came to my my head. And so I put together I googled it and there was a space for the next week. And in Miramar, and I just I booked a flight. While I filled out the application. First, of course, I got accepted, I had absolutely no idea what I was getting myself into. And I booked a flight and I just, I just had to go, I went on my own. I said to my friends, family, and I said to my mom, I'm off to me, and I'm gonna go sit in silence for 10 days. And she was like, What are your thoughts? You know, everything I do. And also, you know, the people that are surrounding me, they just want the best for me. And I just saw I went on my own. And this was I've traveled a lot, but usually with one other person to go and do a full. I think I was out there for a month trip on my own and place that I've never been before. That was quite a new experience for me. Yeah, there. You know, obviously I've done stuff with modeling, but I was being picked up or taken to you know, so this was like a whole new adventure. And yeah, I got there. I spent a couple days in Yangon beforehand. And I didn't know anyone that had done it. That person that I met in Bali, I didn't have any contact with them other than that they want to kind of share or hear their experience from and so it was Yeah, it was just a kind of that just throw myself in and see what happens. I've been told somehow I need to be here. So let's do it.
Host 1:06:50
Yeah. And so now Adama Jyoti on this course. It's so interesting to think about the contrast in your life circumstances. Yeah. And again, this unpredictable path taking shape for you. Like you're this international fashion model, or maybe prior fashion modeling. You've left the industry in this point. But you have 10s of 1000s of followers on social media. And you're now sitting alone in a hot human meditation hall with over 100 Burmese you reference that monks are sitting in front of you, you're cut off from all media. And yet sometimes there could be a plan that seems more exotic or romantic or even doable in the planning stages. Then when it turns out. So what I'm wondering is, once you were actually in that room and reality met expectation, what was that like for you?
Luissa Burton 1:07:36
The reality did hit me when I, when I sat in the room at first where there was quite a number of people in the hall. And as obviously, your listeners would know was split into male and female. And I just remember looking around thinking, whoa, this all happened so fast. How did I get here? What have I done? I remember I had to hand my phone and what if I get sick? Like how can I contact anyone? Do people even know where I am? And I remember when I handed in the phone Actually, I was quite enjoyed that part because you know, always getting notifications and stuff I'd never I was actually looking forward to seeing what it would be like not a phone for 10 days, because I've never experienced that apart from before I knew my phone was. So that was really cool. And then yeah, I just had this monk in front of me in the row in front. And I just remember seeing the the lady in the robes and I just thought, wow, I'm really here and I'm really doing this. Mm hmm.
Host 1:08:41
Yeah. Yeah, right. So undergoing any kind of arduous or intensive meditation retreat. in a foreign country, it's different from doing one at home. So many parts of it are different, like the food, the culture, the language, the climate. I speak from experience because I also started meditating in Asia for years before I went into do a course in the West. For me, it was Japan, Thailand and Burma. Also I did a one of my first courses and dama Jyoti as well, probably to this day, the hardest course I've ever done. And in writing about your own experience, you commented quote, in the first three days, I was extremely frustrated, I sat in a room with 100 people who all seem to be naturally good at sitting like stones and breathing. Well, I could barely sit still or stop my mind from thinking I would ask the teacher Am I doing this right? And all I got back was reserve your respiration and continuity is key. I would go back to my pillow on the floor confused, not any wiser with my mind also screaming at me, why am I here? I can definitely identify with that. What else do you remember about getting through that course?
Luissa Burton 1:09:49
Well, so it's similar to what we were talking about earlier with the perfectionism. So that really helps me to let go of that, you know, perfectionism is a form of self abuse and When I grew, yeah, and when I, I kind of had that moment of weight, you know, I realized that the people that were sat like stones once were allowed to speak. But also when we weren't speaking, I was thinking Hold on a minute, these people must have been doing this time and time again. I overheard one lady say this was her seventh time. You know, I've barely meditated. So I, it's that comparison. You know, it can't exist with joy. So, by comparing myself to people that I have absolutely no idea how much they had done before, or, you know, I was only causing pain within myself. So it was that was a lesson for sure. And it was just about trying and trying and trying again, there was times where I, internally was screaming and wanted to literally run out of the hole, you know, I would sit as still as I possibly could. But I remember her. It was painful, you know. And I'm someone that's always constantly doing something. And this was a big, different environment for me. But it was incredible, the the lessons and the wisdom that I gained, I would absolutely, I would do it 100% again, and I think when I was doing it at the time, there was definitely moments where I was doubting myself thinking, why am I here? What am I doing? Did I really feel good.
Host 1:11:30
And then, you know, you get through the pain. And at the end, you realize that it was worth it. And that I did that for a reason for myself, and I wouldn't have been there if I wasn't supposed to be there. And I appreciated reading your posts describing the meditation course that you made. After it was finished, there was one I really liked, where you're described being mentally confused and physical pain as you reference unsure how to go on. And who becomes your inspiration. In your words. It's an 85 year old woman, extremely fragile, and the tiniest lady lady I've ever seen sunken cheeks not an ounce of fat, the height of a seven year old child, her skin and bones weathered by old age, but her strength, her strength was of another world, I have not seen her move once in all these six days. So reading this, I'm thinking of how your challenging skin condition inspired you to transform this anxiety into a beacon of confidence. And here you are sweating it out on a meditation course. And the catalyst for transformation comes in the form of an old Burmese woman inspiring this newfound confidence in you. So besides her steadfast sitting, did anything else stand out about that tiny woman that was in front of you? How did you turn her example into this personal motivation to continue?
Luissa Burton 1:12:49
Hmm, yeah, she was just beautiful. She just radiated this. I can't, I don't even know if I can put it into words. Just the energy just by looking at her. Just compelled me to, to want to do better.
Host 1:13:07
That's beautiful.
Luissa Burton 1:13:08
That's the only way I could describe it. I just, I was so moved by her. You know, she didn't have to be there. There's a lot of you know, older people that just they just want to relax at home. You know, but she she went and she she's dedicated to her practice. And that means that she's dedicated to her own self love. And it was just amazing. And I afterwards when we were allowed to speak, I had a bracelet that I was wearing. And I I just offered it to her. Because I just I just I don't know if she even understood me. But I just said, you know, thank you so much for just being you, you know, and I just gave him my brace. But I just thought she was so amazing.
Host 1:13:47
Yeah, and I think another beautiful part of that story is where you happen to do the course because one of the reasons we do this podcast and one of explore these stories is we really think that there is something special about the experience of meditating and practicing in Myanmar, and what the Myanmar traditions and people have to offer on a spiritual path. And so here's an example where you want to be at the English center, you can so you come to Burma and even sitting in 10 days of silence where you're not talking to anyone, just physically being in that place and encountering someone you can't talk to let alone even look at is able to offer a source of inspiration that perhaps would be harder to find that center in the west or in England that here you you do find a crop of people with their dedication, their sacrifice, their ethical living their spiritual devotion, are a living example of inspiration into the practice that we as Westerners are trying to assimilate and be on the path of,
Luissa Burton 1:14:46
for me, she was the epitome of the role model. Because my whole thing about being a role model is it doesn't matter who you are. You don't have to have been a model but she was just an example. And she set an example to me and and also to other people in the room. And it was very, very inspiring.
Host 1:15:07
Right, and she might have set that example. But you know, kudos for you for being for having the openness and the receptivity to see a models influence in front of you, and then to take that in and to have that be the transformation of your own course that time. Thank you. Yeah. So since taking that compassionate course of damage, Jyoti, how has that further impacted your spiritual journey in the days and months since the course has finished? Mm hmm.
Luissa Burton 1:15:33
So when I was at the center, and we would have the brakes in the garden, I would always see butterflies. And in the time leading up to that, as well, I would see butterflies everywhere, butterflies everywhere. And it was almost like the butterflies I was seeing was similar to the ones that I was seeing before actually went even though I've never been to me. And I just remember feeling that that was the beginning of where I was really going to start blooming as this butterfly. And then when I came out, that was definitely where I felt, you know, this big transformation of becoming in alignment more with the person that I want to be. And so I do feel that that was a very transformational period for me. And I've taken the lessons that I've learned from that. And I just tried to consciously integrate it into my everyday life. And I do meditate, have a meditation practice now? prior, I didn't. And now I do. You know, I wake up in the morning, I meditate. And that's the first thing I do. And and just that transformation alone is great, because I learned the lesson of consistency and also patience, and letting go of perfection and just practice, you know, just keep practicing and practicing. And I've learned to love it now.
Host 1:16:56
What do you love about it?
Luissa Burton 1:16:58
So before I had a very difficult time being present, I was always very anxious thinking in the future, or, you know, anxiety and depression, anxiety, anxiety is in the future, and depression is in the past. So it is all about difficulty staying present. And I definitely feel that when I'm with people, I'm able to be more present. So it's brought that to me in conversations. I don't hurry and rush so much to respond. I'd listen more intently with the actual intent to listen rather than to just then go and share. You know, something that I want to say. And it's just brought lots of positive things. I feel more calm. I don't know if you think of astrology, but I'm an Aries. That's a fire sign. So I definitely feel a lot more calm. And yeah, the the health benefits have definitely helped with my skin conditions as well. Oh,
Host 1:17:49
oh, that's great. So then once your meditation course was confirmed, you structured the rest of your time in Myanmar planning this eco tour. And your trip itinerary was largely influenced by wanting to see places in Myanmar that were promoting environmental sustainability. You went to the Hill lodge in Colaba, the Mara Ocean Beach Hotel in Napoli, the strand and Savoy hotels in Yangon, you went to a natural Lotus fiber workshop and in lay Lake, as well as the Green Hill Valley Elephant Sanctuary. And you were impressed by electric bikes available throughout Oregon. I did my homework. So so so how did this go? What stood out to you?
1:18:38
I'm glad to hear
Host 1:18:42
it's a it's a country I've been in for about 15 years. So you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't know all this. And I've been to most of these places, too. I know some of the owners as well and some of their histories. But what did you learn about sustainability on this tour? Oh,
Luissa Burton 1:18:54
well, first of all, like I said, I've never been to Miramar. So this was just a whole new place to explore. When I went to in the lake, I had absolutely no idea that you could make clothes out of Lotus fibers. So seeing that the work and the detail that goes into it and actually seeing the production process. And I
Host 1:19:16
think you described that for people who may or may not know what we're talking about.
Luissa Burton 1:19:19
Yeah, so in the lake, they grow lotus flowers in the water. And so they collect these lotus flowers, and then they they kind of pull the I think it's the root apart and these tiny thin fibers stretch out and they do some magic with this and then they put them in these kind of weaving machines. And then they create clothing so there was a lot of scarves and and it is beautiful what they can create from these lotus flowers. And, you know, if we could we need to learn to learn from Italy lagers. So that was incredible. And then also when I went to kilo Hill lodge I got the opportunity to visit the kind of Nepali community village and all the see the gardens with the organic vegetables and Puri, which was my guide, he was teaching, he teaches the guests every morning on the walk about the nature and the plants. So you know, there was people from Japan, there was people from Germany, and these people are coming there and they're learning more about, you know, the native land in Myanmar. And I think that is great. And also just, they're educating people on organic farming, they have a farm there as well, or they they're just really amazing in terms of the knowledge that the puri hat. And yeah, Amara ocean resort, I think they want Asia's greenest hotel award. So well done memo, assessing example, I think that is really important. Because, you know, tourism is a major thing for an economy, you know, but the the devastation that tourism can do is very problematic. And, you know, I would love to encourage more people to go and visit me and more. But I would just urge please, please do it responsibly. Because you know, it's not up to us to go and you know, ruin another country because we just want to see it. And so it's this kind of battle between, oh, we want to learn and explore other cultures and wherever you may want to go, you know, but it's just about making sure that we preserve and protect the nature and Amara ocean resort that every single morning, they do the beach cleanups and also at Colonial Lodge, myself and the staff. They do every Sunday, a cleanup around the village, and they encourage anyone that wants to get involved to go. So we went and we made it a good fun. It's beautiful that people there are wanting to protect what they have. And you know, if we if we can make help more people to understand that, you know, if we want to continue to enjoy these places, then we need to protect them, then yeah, it's just all about education.
Host 1:22:01
Right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, cola was a former British health station when during the colonial period, and just this beautiful pine forest now a little retreat. And there's a one I was researching the meditators guidebook to Burma, apparently, in collage after the British left in like the 1950s. And it became independent Burma. There were stories of Burmese having kids like pure 100% Burmese, that at an early age, like one or two years old, we're recalling past lives of being in their former lifetime, somehow even having like, like fair skin that that they later grew out of and having having some knowledge of English, if you believe in any Buddhist sense of reincarnation. And so it's been in Myanmar, it's been kind of like, just a sign that the British that were there loved it so much that even after they died, they had to come back and be reborn back in color.
Luissa Burton 1:22:54
So it's interesting that you share the past lives, because I actually have done past life regression, and I actually in one was a Tibetan monk. You know, so it's quite as cool that you're sharing that. And where did you do that? What
Host 1:23:09
tradition or practice?
Luissa Burton 1:23:11
Well, it's not really a practice as lady that does past life regression. So she's not really specific to any practice. So I don't know what your kind of beliefs are on that. But yeah, it's just it was interesting. Apparently, I made a vow of silence.
Host 1:23:26
Oh, there you go. Well, you know, of course, in Buddhist philosophy, there's a very strong belief in the sense of being trapped in samsara and being going from, from body to body from life to life. And there's actually a meditation practice in Myanmar different than the one you did different practices and traditions and techniques focus on different pathways to the teachings. But there's one tradition called power oak, and the and it's a it's a native Myanmar tradition, and inherent in the practice is being taught to recollect your past lives in a way of with the belief that further understanding your past lives and what you did during those past lives, can help understand where you are today. And so many of the practitioners come away with with an understanding of who they were in past lives and understanding what that led to the present life and how to come out of that. And we have some have some interviews of people who've discussed that practice of going back into those previous lifetimes.
Luissa Burton 1:24:24
Yeah, and I've done I've done a few. So I know a few various different ones. And, and when I've made peace with that, I've then noticed a change in my outer reality. So I used to absolutely love kind of these kind of thriller, TV shows that were just to do with, like, drug smuggling. I just found those very fascinating, and I couldn't understand why and it was actually rooted in a past life. And then once we made peace with that, in that past life, I found that I just had absolutely no need or desire to watch these television shows. And it was
Host 1:24:59
yeah Sometimes just knowledge can be enough to take you out of those patterns. And you don't know why you're in why you keep going down this pathway or that pathway that aren't necessarily the most healthy thing.
Luissa Burton 1:25:09
Absolutely. So thank you for sharing that with me.
Host 1:25:12
Yeah, it's wonderful to hear as well. And both during your course, as well as on your tour, it sounds like you found inspiration from so called regular people just living their lives that seem to be a constant for you. You mentioned an 80 year old da OMG, teaching you how to plant seeds in claw and just have a wonderful picture of her wearing your sash. You talk about, say to the Butler, the strandhotel, who was following your work promoting sustainability. You've already referenced the 85 year old woman on the meditation course that was your inspiration. So although your time in Myanmar was limited, how were you impacted by these experiences with Burmese people?
1:25:51
Well,
Luissa Burton 1:25:53
the people is what made it for me, you know, every single person that I interacted, it was just wonderful to meet all the different types of people throughout the trip. And just to learn more about the culture, and also the food I absolutely adored the food.
Host 1:26:08
What's your favorite dish?
Luissa Burton 1:26:10
I don't know what I remember eating a lot of rice and the whole trip I vegan. So I had a lot of really good vegan food that was not something that I could have got in England. So especially at the center, I was really quite amazed at how delicious The food was. Because I remember reading online that you know, in England, obviously you would get English food. But I actually, I'm so glad I did did it in Miramar? Because I got to taste right these different types of things that I would never have had.
Host 1:26:40
And he has some good food. I know from experience.
Luissa Burton 1:26:43
I was really
1:26:45
into the food situation. So
Luissa Burton 1:26:47
yeah, it was it was so nice to just cases there was a lot of kind of noodley things and interesting desserts. I don't know the names, but it was good.
Host 1:26:58
Yeah. And how about your experiences with Burmese people with some some of the highlights? In what way were the highlights? What Did it teach you? And were there any things that stood out?
Luissa Burton 1:27:06
just extremely warm people wanting to just taking an interest in me because they wanted me to go home and to share with other people their country? And I remember there was one lady that was specifically asking me like, Oh, what is people's opinion in England? Miramar? Please? Please tell your opinion. Honestly, when you go home if you didn't like it, say, you know, but share honestly, how you felt especially because they I've mentioned that I was going to do like a magazine write up about my trip there. And you know, everything that I have said is genuine and it's from the heart. And that's exactly how I experienced it. And it's, it's so great that I just had only have good things to say.
Host 1:27:48
Yeah, I mean, it certainly gripped me, I came like you did for a meditation course and some travel and except for this current pandemic. I've been there ever since. And definitely we have a home and business I'll be going back. So maybe on on an upcoming trip when you're there, we'll get to meet in person and can help you access some of these, these special sites where the practice has been preserved outside of the center.
Luissa Burton 1:28:10
Well, I'm actually I'm definitely looking to go back. And obviously that would be great, though with Amara ocean before the kind of pandemic happened, I was actually organizing a retreat there. What kind of retreat? So I very much believe in wilderness therapy. It helps you know, with anxiety, depression, but also just doing my own general Holistic Health and Wellness workshops, because that's something that I really love. And I'm interested in with the speaking and a Mara ocean. Of course, they sustainability values is what when I was there, I just thought that the place is beautiful. And I'd love people to come and experience this here as a retreat because it was so peaceful. And yeah, I was gonna take along with me a survival guide, and who's worked with people like Bear Grylls Jr, who beggars is
Host 1:28:56
I don't Who is that? I used to be
Luissa Burton 1:28:57
a wilderness survival expert that's quite famous on television. Okay. Yeah, we're gonna go along and take a group of people and do meditation yoga in the mornings, and then and do some workshops. And then I was going to take people out, obviously permitting, where we were allowed to go and just do some outdoor activities and getting people and also women especially out into and doing things that they wouldn't normally necessarily do to overcome some limitations. Because when you take people out of their environment, and put them in a new environment, doing different things, and you know, I like to think that my alter ego, we all superhero would be lower. You know, getting people doing outdoor activities, and getting people interested in nature and especially, you know, in Miramar, it's just absolutely beautiful. Yeah, it really helps with you know, things like depression, anxiety and just being in nature. You know, it's the medicine itself. Yeah. So yeah, I really hope that one day soon I could I can re visit that plan. So watch this. space.
Host 1:30:01
I hope so also Yeah, and it's funny you talk about similarity my co host on this podcast sack, Hessler is also a wilderness guide. That's been his profession for many years. So I've learned a lot about that practice through him. So pretty cool to hear that that'll be happening in Myanmar as well.
Luissa Burton 1:30:17
Yeah. Amazing.
Host 1:30:18
Great. So what's next up on your spiritual journey? Do you plan to take more courses? Or are there other practices you're looking at doing?
Luissa Burton 1:30:25
I would absolutely love to do it. Again, I'd like to try a shorter version just for you know, I think you can do three days. Is that is that possible?
Host 1:30:32
There is? Yeah, there's also plenty in 30 days, if you want to bump up some.
1:30:37
Oh, wow.
Luissa Burton 1:30:38
So you know, I would love to do a shorter one in England, and then, you know, in the future look to expand and, and do more, you know, I'm never gonna rule things out. But for now, while I'm in lockdown in England, we can't actually go anywhere. Or can we we can't, in our minds.
1:31:00
Physically, I
Luissa Burton 1:31:00
can't, I can't go anywhere. And thanks to technology that we're able to have this interview right now. And that's super, super cool. So yeah, just continue to keep learning. I'm developing my Holistic Health and Wellness side of things, continue with the coaching, coaching people. And just once I can start moving around, again, going out and sharing my story some more. And yeah, and hopefully, be able to bring people to me more for these retreats, I would love that.
Host 1:31:31
That's great. That's great. And I definitely suggest, if you're when when you're able to come to me and more next, if you haven't already have the experience of going to a Buddhist monastery or nunnery if you didn't get a chance to the last time. Meditation centers are great, they're kind of outgrowths of this very ancient order of the monasteries and nunneries in the way that they're operating, they bring the practice in a very condensed and powerful way. But when you go back to the source country, you get a chance to kind of go back in time and go to these places where the origins of the current meditation movement came from. So yes, being able to go to some of these monasteries and nunneries have your own interactions with people ingrained in the practice, set up your own timetable, and schedule and practice. It's a really powerful experience that you can have and almost anywhere else in the world. So it's, it's quite special for being in Myanmar.
Luissa Burton 1:32:23
Yeah, absolutely. That would be wonderful. And I did when when I went on the trip to meet the Dalai Lama, I did go to a nunnery in India, but to do want to go in Myanmar, and to have that experience would be really cool. I don't know if just going back to an earlier point, when you mentioned about being called to go over to me and while I'm not sure if we mentioned this, but when I came out of the center, at the end, when we were allowed to speak, I found out that the damage it was the original place. So I just couldn't believe that. I had gone from hearing for passionate hearing me, Mr. And looking in England, there was no space to ending up the birth place. You know, not even one of the other centers that are in memory, because there's I think there's a few different centers, but actually at the center of where it began, right.
Host 1:33:15
Yeah, that was the first center in Myanmar wasn't the first center in the world in that tradition, right, the first one in Myanmar, but more importantly, that particular lineage of Glinka and of his teachers, the lineage of his teachers are all Burmese are going to say all Burmese monks, actually, some were Burmese laypeople, but they, it was a, the origins of the practice. And today, scholars widely consider like this whole mindfulness and meditation movement that's sweeping the West. The Origins come in Burma, that's the thing. Yes, that brought me there. That was my interest and my passion and wanting to know, where did these origins come from? How can you be able to go back to see the native practice that we pulled from that went around the world in the shape that it's gone. So when you go back and take a course in Myanmar, and you're surrounded by Burmese people and monastics, you are, in a sense, going back to where it all came from? So it's certainly quite a special experience. And, you know, and then beyond that, you can also get off the beaten track into going into some of these monasteries that are little known today. But that historically played a very important role in leading to us as Westerners being able to get the practice. So, you know, so next time you're back in town, next time, I'm back in town when this whole pandemic is over, you know, make some time and we'll share with you how to get to some special places. That's
Luissa Burton 1:34:38
right. Yeah. Recommend and, and tell me how to get there. And then, yeah, just being able to go there and experience it because that obviously the birthplace wasn't England or just being able to go to an area where the the vibration of the land and the history and experience So there I think definitely made an impact on my experience.
Host 1:35:04
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Was there anything else you want to add?
1:35:08
Um,
Luissa Burton 1:35:08
is there anything else I want to add? I think that we're, we're done. Okay.
1:35:17
That was great.
Host 1:35:18
Yeah. Well, I really appreciate the time you took to talk with us today. I know you're in lockdown. Again, they're in the UK. So please stay safe, make best use of the time that you have in in solitude. I think our listeners really benefited from this conversation. I definitely have. I've learned a lot and best wishes with your professional career and spiritual journey going forward.
Luissa Burton 1:35:39
Thank you. And I definitely learned a lot as well. So I am appreciative of the knowledge that you just shared with me.
Host 1:35:52
All right, so Melissa coats. We just finished the interview with Louisa Burton. You've listened to it several times. I understand. So really excited to have you on to talk about some of your reflections and reactions and listening to it.
Melissa 1:36:06
Yeah, thank you, john. This is a really interesting and inspiring discussion to listen to. And it actually reminded me of this poem from the elder nuns versus the terracotta. There's a new translation called the first free women. It's published in a book. And there's just one that stood out. If you don't mind, I'd like to read it.
Host 1:36:34
Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead.
1:36:36
It's by Abby rupin Nanda. Her name means delighting in beauty. Haven't you spent enough time comparing your hair and your clothes and your face to the hair and the faces and the clothes of those around you see the body for what it is? real beauty is in the clear, open light of the non judgmental heart.
Luissa Burton 1:37:02
That's it.
1:37:05
Beautiful
1:37:06
and like that's what I was hearing in her interview. Yeah, the terracotta the elder nuns verses are the first women who the first women who are woke under the Buddha and ordained as nuns and their women from all different walks of life. grandmas young, beautiful women, courtesans poor women, rich woman, mothers. And yeah, their poems of awakening. Just speak so deeply to my experience and that of other people that I know on the path. But in listening to her interview, there's this bigger theme that I hear in, in most interviews, or most people's stories as they're delving into a spiritual journey, like going to meditate in Myanmar. And it's basically the first noble truth like the, the truth of suffering, the stress, distress, despair, anxiety and depression and her case and that bringing her to questioning, to seeking and to awakening and the Buddha taught about the divine messengers, you know, aging, sickness and death. And, you know, in this case, maybe eczema and psoriasis is under the sickness, one and helped show her that there was more, to know more to learn a deeper reality to be understood. even despite, like career success, and money and fame and everything. She wasn't deeply happy and wasn't fulfilled, and that leading her to something greater. And I also hear this really strong foundation of living ethically, which was also just so foundational in the Buddhist teachings, commitment to non harming, to Sheila, not killing, not stealing, etc. The ways that we can live in the world that reduce our greed, hatred and delusion. I liked her term reducer terian. And I think like, Buddhists, I think of Buddhist monastics as like, the furthest expression of a reducer terian where you just live on alms foods and you just have a robe and you don't buy anything. Yeah, step outside of all kind of socially promoted values.
Host 1:39:57
So yeah, when you talk about her journey, being immoral one unethical one, where her harm and impact on the planet and on the surroundings are constantly being lessened through greater awareness. That's actually mirroring the spiritual path of a lot of people in the east, which is not as common in the West, often people on the west come from whatever their background is just thrown into the thrusts of deep insight meditation. Wow, often in Asia, the normal flow of things is that you, you might have years and years of dedicated ethical living following the precepts of following a moral guidance in your, in your life and in your surroundings, before you ever even start on the path of actual formal meditation. And so your observation here is that whether she was doing this intentional or not, with knowing the Buddhist path, actually, that's not so important. That was more that she was naturally organically coming to this greater ethical living Little by little, as you see in a traditional Buddhist Asian environment. And that, that resulted into her first meditation course and experienced that gradual kind of opening up and being aware of her external actions and effects on other people, people that were around her as well as the greater community that was being affected, even if they weren't exactly visible.
1:41:22
Right, right. There are such clear expressions in how she's living and what she's doing in the world of this ethical foundation. And also like Donna generosity, and like, those are the foundational teachings that people are living by, often in Buddhist cultures, and not so in the West. Like, you know, so maybe in a place like Myanmar, there's, you know, this theme of role models came up a lot. There's role models for ethical living role models for spiritual development role models for non harming and just living in alignment in the world. And in Western culture, in general, what's promoted as our role models are, you know, career conventional success, money, and fame, and like, what you can buy and social status and numbers on Instagram. And
Host 1:42:21
so in the West, it's more of like, what you've achieved, and what you've done with your career rather than who you are.
1:42:30
Right, there's this push, like, we're really indoctrinated to have to, like, prove ourselves and meet some imaginary societal standards. And at the same time, we're not having role models for self love, or things like healthy relationships or for generosity. And, you know, and then a lot of Westerners come to the practice, you know, they're like, Oh, I want to jump into these meditation retreats and do it more and more. And then like, they're like, Why can't my mind settle down? You know, these Burmese people or, you know, Sri Lankan elders, or like going into deep Samadhi you know, really settled states of mind so much more easily. And I'm just like, struggling and my mind is crazy. And I'm obsessed with this and obsessed with that. And like seeing that my mind is like addicted to all these things. And relentlessly thinking,
Host 1:43:29
sorry to interject, when when you look at Louise's life, story and journey, I want to come back to something you just said, where you mentioned that I don't remember your exact words. But like in society, we have these kind of invisible goals or standards that we have to meet that are causing this pressure. What's so interesting is that Louise's case, these are not invisible. I mean, these are numbers, like these are like waking up the next morning, and there's like a number that corresponds to your actual body image or size, that you have to meet that standard to have that job the next day. And so like, this is like a much more intense version of what many people go through in terms of the kind of invisible norms and ways that you want to be looked at these are actually stated in contractual norms that have to be fit into,
1:44:16
right, in order for her to succeed by the conventional measures. And just a lot of joy for her for stepping out of that and going on her own path interesting. The intuitive guidance and awakening through the pain of all of that, and from spending a good amount of time in Myanmar. My, my understanding has expanded about things like this where it didn't come out of nowhere. It's not. It's not random. That she's awakening in these ways. It's not random That she's called to sit in a meditation retreat in Myanmar, she's getting a message in her ear that saying like Vipassana, Vipassana, Myanmar, Myanmar, Myanmar, and like that sounds so random, like her mom being like, what? It's all conditioned from her past life practice her past life permies the qualities of heart that, once fulfilled, were awakened. This is the common understanding that that exists in Myanmar and what I've just kind of how I've come to understand the world and how these things happen also, from being around people who can discern their past lives and see that they were deep practitioners, you know, practicing in certain ways, and that's why it led them like to this opening in this life, the karma from the past that's created this and it's clear that she has had a lot of past life practice. And so things like that ethical living and generosity and like this, this kind of loving kindness and like non judgmental ness towards others. Just flow for her, it's it's all conditioned from past life, wholesome actions,
Host 1:46:14
right? And it was kind of those skin conditions that operated as a trigger to setting off on this journey and unlocking these these kind of values and responses to what was a challenging situation that set her off on this very different path.
1:46:31
Mm hmm. Yeah. And, like, what are other factors that bring us to things like that. So this intuitive guidance, also, from the time I spent in Myanmar, where the, the Devas or the day was in the Pali pronunciation, the the Earth Spirits, our spirit guides are, yeah, in English, it's like, angels, and, you know, spirits that live in the trees in the forest, and things are our guardians and protectors. Like just hearing it, her interview is like, Oh, that's obviously the David's are whispering in her ear, Vipassana and Myanmar, like, and she's open enough to hear it. Like, it's like, the more I've meditated, the more those kinds of things the like specific messages have come through. And I don't often talk about it, because in the West, folks are really scientifically minded, if I can't see it, if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist,
Host 1:47:37
right. There's modern Buddhism that's pervaded so much of our current practice is this idea that it has to be framed, to be logical and rational and in accordance with scientific methods and, and following all these other kind of modern understandings. And so that makes it makes these, what some might call supernatural or, or unusual experiences, then this will be uncomfortable to talk about because of the way that this modern Buddhist approach has been presented and framed in the start of the journey of so many meditators. Of course, as you get further on that journey, that starts to kind of fall away in its own way.
1:48:17
Right. So, you know, you brought up pork in the interview, and that's where I was practicing for over a year. And, like, so many practitioners there, it's just a given part of the map of practice there that you develop strong enough concentration, unification and stability of mind to be able to directly discern with your mind things that are beyond normal human consciousness. And I sat in so many interviews where my jaw would just drop like interviews were like, students were telling the teachers what they were discerning and like, oh, they're discerning the Davao realm. And sub Davis came into the hall, like when this nun was discerning them and they were also meditating. And she was like, What is going on? And he's like, Oh, that's normal. And so, you know, initially when I started on the path, like, also, you know, sitting in my first going country retreat like 11 years ago, I also, you know, was a versiv actually actively aversive to the idea of past lives and, you know, of supernatural seeming things. And over time, that's fallen away. And I currently Think of it as like this. So, you know, say a scientist has a microscope and they can look at a drop of blood under the microscope and see that it's made up of blood cells, and then they go and they tell people Hey, there, you know, blood is there's all these blood cells in our blood. And like, or like a particle physicist or something who can see subatomic particles from the instruments that they've developed. And I think of people like Paul practitioners or just other deep meditators who've been able to directly discern ultimate realities, as also, as scientists who developed the mental technology have taken the time and have the right conditions to be able to directly discern these things. And they're coming back and telling us also and like, yeah, I haven't either discerned subatomic particles, wavelet particles, the way scientists have, nor have I in my personal practice, yet. But I believe the truth of both of those things are possible.
Host 1:50:49
Right? Right. And so you mentioned how this subject of like these invisible beings are supernatural beings, it's not something that people often talk about in the practice that that there is, especially in the way it's framed in the West. And there's another aspect of topics that maybe aren't really discussed openly, but might play a really profound role in the lives of meditators that I was wondering about your response and gauging your feeling as you're listening to this. And if you had any similar identification, or similarity in your life, so we get this story of someone who's an insider, actually a winner in inside the beauty industry, beauty contests, pageants, fashion, modeling, etc. And we hear about her story of going through being in this role, really epitomizing feminine beauty and within society, and then moving towards a more renunciate spiritual life of have the inner journey and of letting go of needing to define beauty a certain way or, or conform to certain numbers or whatnot. And this is kind of an extreme example. And that's really the beauty of it for me is just that these dynamics are, are seeing so clearly in her story of where her journey has come from and gone to. But I think that it also in hearing about her journey, and her describing it, she's also touching upon a theme that's probably not completely unusual or unfamiliar for women, everywhere Western women, that are growing into societal expectations, as well as where those societal expectations come from in terms of the nature of what it means to be female or male. And so as you listen to her journey of transformation, in embracing or conforming to feminine beauty, and then going towards an examination and summarization of that, you know, you Melissa, you've been in Myanmar for several years, you've been in and out of being a monastic of being a nun, they're a nun as the the ultimate renunciation of, of, of worldly life of sexuality of certain images are conforming to things, you're really leaving all that behind as a male or a female. So you've you've taken some of those steps and you've stepped into it stepped out of it, you're, of course, very serious practitioner, even in lay life. So I'm curious to gauge your reactions and feelings, parallel in your own experience or experiences of your friends, as you heard her description and depiction of her journey.
1:53:27
Right there was so much identified with in her journey, like just, you know, being a woman, in this day and age were raised, seeing media images of perfection that we're comparing ourselves to all the time. Like, my mom likes to tell a story. Like when I was in kindergarten, I wouldn't go to school unless my hair was done and my bangs were curled, like how early that conditioning start, right? And how ingrained it is, where literally, I would say, as a, as a five year old, I'm too ugly to go to school, like, if my hair isn't fixed, how deeply we're conditioned to believe our value lies in our looks. And that our well being will depend on that, on the approval and validation of others of our ability to attract and keep a man. So many beliefs get deeply, deeply implanted and, and that comes out in these expressions of perfectionism. Whether it's towards looks or just towards any other way, we're approaching ourselves in our day to day life. Where we're treating ourselves unkindly and judge, Judge mentally, and thinking that we're not enough you You know, how many 1000s and 1000s of advertisements have I seen in my life that were made to tell me, I'm not enough, I don't have enough, if I buy this shit, I'll be better. Like, industrial capitalist society depends on this, on us feeling insecure and insufficient. And in my journey of practice over, you know, the last decade or so, seeing that parallel in her story of like, when I did the internal work, that stuff fell away. So like, whether it's perfectionism in some creative project that I'm doing, or perfectionism in how I look how I perceive myself when I look in the mirror, gradually over time, with continuous and frequent practice of just bringing mindful awareness to what's happening in my mind that those beliefs that are unconscious come to the surface and get on earth. And once they're seen, we can stop believing them. So for example, on my first three month retreat, I noticed, like, if I would walk past a mirror, like in the bathroom, or in my room, my head would automatically turn towards the mirror, like, cut compulsively, like it's just, this is just automatic. And so I started covering the mirror in my room, and after a week, I took it off. And when I started looking back in the mirror, I, in just a millisecond, there would be judgment about the hair judgement about the face and judgement about the clothes. And lots of times it was positive judgment, but that's still judgment,
Host 1:57:01
like, and that's so interesting, because you're on this three month retreat, where I assume it's segregated and might be some kind of silence. People are just there for the practice. I mean, this is not the kind of place where you're trying to make an impression on on society or a possible rate or, or things like that. And yet, you're still finding yourself caught in this trap of, of walking by a mirror and feeling this instantaneous pool to check yourself.
1:57:27
Yeah, to find something to
Host 1:57:31
see.
1:57:32
I would like to adjust my hair or adjust my shirt. And it's like, there's nothing to fix. I'm here meditating. Like, what an opportunity to actually see that process happening that had been happening my whole life. Yeah, wow. And then from there, getting to notice it happening again. And again. So like, someone that my mind has perceived as attractive is like, walking towards me, and then I'll automatically my hand will fix my hair. And like these, these actual movements, they're not random. And that is relating to myself in a way of controlling, trying to appear a certain way. And it was amazing to start seeing that kind of stuff and how it was, in these subtle ways of just my flick of the eye towards the mirror, or my hand running through my hair, when someone is near me or and, you know, there's there's way more overt ways that that gets expressed. And that like some of that was coming up in her conversation, or just like this need for perfectionism or need to control like in the eating disorder, like I had something very, very similar to what she expressed. Binge eating and like, as a control reaction to trauma and not knowing another way and like struggling so hard with it, like trying to force myself to stop binge eating, but like that, not at all addressing the, the deeper wounds and the roots of it. So it would just continue to express. And then this opportunity of doing things like sitting in meditation retreats, can allow us to tap into much deeper areas of our consciousness that are hidden from us, that are that are driving forces like addictions and addictive behaviors that are painful or self destructive. And just through getting to practice, the wonderful opportunities that were offered to practice like so much of that has fallen away also. And how does that happen?
1:59:58
What happened
1:59:59
you know, How so. So these addictive patterns of mind like because usually day to day, we're just running through the world and we're just you know, reaching for that chocolate or you know, for the TV or like scrolling through Instagram or whatever the the perpetual distraction from the discomfort that we're seeking through all these sense pleasures and like, in the seclusion of retreat, we get to see all those urges coming up again and again and again, whether, you know, for whatever kind of sensual pleasures, and just seeing them coming and going, and coming and going. And sometimes the mind can, like, there was one retreat that I sat where I was just like, for three days obsessed with the idea of fried chicken. And like, that's the first thing I'm going to do when I get out of here, I'm in a, go get some fried chicken, chicken, and I'm gonna have sex, like, you know, just this obsessive, obsessive fixation that is relentless and painful. And like, oh, there it is, I can actually see that this desire is painful, like, but normally, in the day to day, I wouldn't recognize that I wouldn't have the ability to just sit and see the urge come and go, because I would just automatically engage in the impulse. And, yeah, so the mechanism there of how the addictive patterns of mind start gradually falling away over time, when we choose to go into temporary seclusion and retreats is so powerful. And yeah, I feel so much joy for her getting to do this just starting out on, like, in a way starting out with meditation practice, but it's like she's been practicing the Dharma in all these different ways without even like, having, you know that as a framework.
Host 2:02:01
Yeah, and I think what's so interesting about her story, too, is I think that in the West, especially there can be people going deeper into meditation Westerners going deeper into meditation going further down the path, there definitely can be kind of an elitism that kicks in of just like how vegetarian, are you? And how many courses have you done? And have you studied with what countries have you been to if you were deigned and, you know, the, you can say that elite, elite ism might be coming from a good place of just wanting to show evermore dedication and renunciation. But it does sometimes separate the the people that are claiming themselves as elite and trying to become elite with the rest and everyone else. And I think one of the dichotomies that set up is kind of like, there's this spiritual, refined renunciate community and then there's this kind of ugly, capitalist commercial Course World. And there's bridges between them. But those bridges are basically like conversion, right? It's like taking people from the, the crass worldly society and bringing them into the greater truth so that they renunciate their, you know, the kind of the mess where they're coming from. And certainly, if you look at the depth of the Buddhist teachings, that renunciation is, is something that is quite powerful and important for the path. yet, at the same time, when you go to a country like me, and Mark, I think you and I both had this experience, you see how the Buddhist teachings really runs through every avenue and aspect of society, how it bleeds into every interaction and encounter and, and place an area that you're in. And so one of the things that I really enjoyed about this interview was that we're speaking to someone that is from this fashion modeling commercial industry. And we're seeing how this practice of meditation is informing and changing your life for the better. So it's not this like battle or contrast, or, you know, this, this, this feeling of, of something that you're up against with meditation, and that's that's infringing on your world, it's rather, you know, she, she stays in the industry, she is in the industry today. It's not someone who's, you know, meditation practice is making them see the folly of their ways. And coming out of that, no, she's she's doing what everyone does, as a meditator in taking these insights and wisdom that you gained from practice, and using them to continue living your life unless you're involved in something terribly unethical, like, like fighting wars, or stealing from people. But for the most part, you're you're doing, you're continuing to do what you're doing your family and your work, etc, environment, but you're doing it with greater wisdom and having a more positive impact on those around you as well as on yourself. And, and so like, through her example, we're not seeing this as like a contest or a battle of ideas or even a threat to the spiritual Practice. But it can be seen as, as an example of how this practice can. This Dhamma is within every aspect of life, there's not a place you can go or a type of person or type of interaction where it's just void. And it's this elite subset, but it's actually integrated into it can be integrated into many different walks of life. And that's a message that, for me, personally, is one of the most profound lessons I've gotten living in Myanmar for as long as I have. But it's not something you find as much here where it is more separated and distinct. And I think, hearing hearing her hit hearing, Louisa hit some of the same stations, that Western many Western meditators hit in terms of, you know, wow, why they got interested in the practice and the struggles, they went through the dark night of the soul coming out of those struggles, and then the spiritual journey unfolding and opening within, there's similar stations and marks that she's hitting that all of us have hit, but external circumstances are really quite different. But they're, they're also beautiful to me, because they're, they're showing that this is a practice that can benefit and impact you wherever you're at. And it's not like you You need to fit into certain kinds of labels to, to claim it, but you can you can live as long as you have a basic non harming in your, in your profession and your interactions. You can, you can be what you want and just use this practice to make you gain more wisdom and also even renouncing your own ways. If you're not renouncing fully and completely as a monastic. You're renouncing as she did, you know, meat or, or attachment to this or having to fit this kind of perfection. So that was also quite inspiring.
2:06:53
Right? The Buddha taught the fourfold Sangha, like, you know, lay people in monastics not you didn't teach, like everybody be monastics course. And, like, I really feel so much gratitude towards, like, going, going big and, like, the, just the accessibility he's made, for bringing the Dhamma around the world. And so people in England could hear about it. And so people, you know, so I could first encounter it and have an opportunity to try practice. And
2:07:34
yeah, something with like, you know, folks who, who really delve deeply on the path of meditation practice, who feel really committed to it, who spent a lot of time maybe in Myanmar, or who have, you know, ordained or things like that, we can be still like, deeply conditioned towards the perfectionism that would lead us to, like, create spiritual egotism. And like, believe we are holier than thou, if, you know, if you are also going to ordain, or if you haven't set this law, or whatever. And it can also be expressed in our the individual ways that we approach practice. And actually, this is something that I've seen in myself and in a lot of other meditators. Whether in the west or in Myanmar, is like our approach to meditation can subtly have this perfectionism in it, like, just approaching it with like, the kind of acquisitive mind like trying to acquire something trying to get something like leaning into like, grasping really hard at the breath, or like, feeling like I've accomplished something. If I sat like, X number of hours, or like, I've proven something, I've done my good today if, like, if my mind could stay on the breath for this number of minutes, they're like, it comes through in, in subtler and subtler ways.
Host 2:09:14
Right? same same as in a certain kind of body image, instead of a body image. For this meditation practice,
2:09:20
that's no different is thinking I need 5000 people to like me on it. Like, Oh, good. I get to report today to the side all that I sat for three hours straight, you know?
2:09:35
Yeah.
2:09:37
And that proves that I'm good and I'm progressing or something. No, but if it creeps in, in all kinds of ways. And yeah, that's just that really unkind and controlling way of relating to ourselves from a place of lack of self love from a, like a perception of our own insufficiency and needing to prove something that You know, most everyone in this culture is conditioned to. And so also just being compassionate with that and trying not to hold on too tightly or take ourselves too seriously, even though we really want to wake up.
Host 2:10:18
Right, right. All right, so yeah, definitely great, great stuff. So, before we close out, are there any other thoughts or feelings you wanted to share about listening to her interview?
2:10:32
One thing that stood out this epitome of a role model for her, this 85 year old Burmese elder who radiated, the energy is beyond description. And like, I have encountered people like that on my journey, who have just been guiding lights. And yeah, the the strength or the stillness, the radiance and kindness. It was beautiful to hear about. And then the the butterflies in the garden that were blessing her on her path, really affirming for her the alignment and the transformation that she'd gone through. A beautiful story. And yeah, just much joy for her journey. And like, I have no doubt that she's going to come back and do more practice. I mean, her life as a Tibetan monk, and probably other lives where she's practiced the Dharma that have created conditions for her in this life that will allow her to practice. It's just going to keep going and growing. And yeah, her path of awakening will continue.
Host 2:12:00
Wasn't a pandemic, maybe Who knows, maybe the all three of us would be in Myanmar right now, instead of all three of us are outside the country and the country has been closed down since March. So life is unpredictable.
2:12:12
Yeah.
Host 2:12:16
Yeah. Great. Well, thanks so much for being on and taking the time to listen and give your thoughts and reactions and really enjoyed connecting with you and hearing your reaction.
2:12:29
Thank you, Joe. Likewise, thanks for sharing this one with me.
Host 2:12:33
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I look forward to talking again.
2:12:38
I'll blessings.
Host 2:12:44
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