Transcript: Episode 31: From the River Bank of Consciousness
Following is the full transcript for the interview with David Sudar, which appeared on January 24, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
It was about 10 years ago that I first got into the world of media projects on the subject of Burma Dhamma. I started a blog and thought it would be fun to share stories, anecdotes, and experiences from the golden land to meditators everywhere. More than anything becoming so moved myself by the stomach environment. I wanted to help extend the conversation for those meditators who couldn't so easily book a flight and come themselves due to the country being closed for so long. And with so few foreigners enjoying long stays here, I found much of the discourse in the West about Burmese Buddhism, to be at odds with my own actual experience here. So this blog, as well as the later meditators guide book that we published, were my own attempts to balance the scales. This podcast is the latest iteration of that intent. And it's been a dream to work on something so fulfilling. Oh, and that blog is still active to see our recent posts as well as our entire archive of the past decade. Check out our website, Insight myanmar.org. That's Insight Myanmar, one word, i en si gh TMYANM ar.org. But of course, only after the show, which we think turned out quite well. Indeed.
David Sudar 01:31
Ha, ha,
01:45
ha, that is.
David Sudar 02:05
Hello, my name is David Sundar. And today on downwind diaries, I'm going to relay an experience I had on retreat in Myanmar. And so just give some context to this. My time in Myanmar, this visit I'm going to be talking about today, I ended up staying for 21 months. And overwhelmingly just engaging in intensive meditation practice throughout that time. Most of it I spent with seido mutation here, moving throughout some of his different centers in the country. The first few months cyto was out of the country doing some traveling. And so I was left a little bit on my own to piece it together, I was already practicing in his tradition. And so I had somewhat of a grasp of what I was doing. But I bounced around to a few different centers. And so after about three months of being there, maybe a little bit longer, I was at the center in young bone. And so to this point, I had been really just practicing, I'd wake up around maybe three 330 in the morning, and then I would practice until around nine or 10 at night, taking little breaks for lunch, breakfast, maybe some cleaning and some other little chores, but for the most part I was just doing sitting and walking meditation, the quality of my mind, I was not the type where I just went on retreat, at least that period and just dropped right in and great concentration and Samadhi actually had a fairly scattered mind. And you know, a lot of thinking and distraction and the hindrances were fairly prevalent, but I had a lot of perseverance, a lot of determination is just my mindset, I'm keeping at it. And there was one day where I've been practicing and and now got a little bit later in the evening, I was sitting in meditation, in the usual sense of you sit down, you have primary object or primary object and drift off, come back and drift off and come back drop in the usual flow. And then there was a particular moment in the meditation where it was almost as if awareness separated out from the rest of the objects of consciousness, the rest of the internal objects like thoughts and sensations sounds. In it, I had this experience of feeling as if I was on this. My experience beforehand was like I was in this river of the mind. And I was just carried along with it. And then there was this moment where I it was almost like I went to the river bank and for one of the first times for a really prolonged period. I suppose was the first time to have this for more than just a fleeting moment. But for the rest of the meditation period, I don't know it was 30 4060 minutes or whatever this sustained in unbrokenly, where sitting on the riverbank of consciousness, so to speak, I just watched this flow of thoughts move through these energetic sensations move through in the body of the tingling impulse scenes, the reactions and impulses. And what I found so interesting about it is there was this really, really strong sense of not getting entangled. It was as if awareness, or mindfulness could exist and so could thoughts. Prior to that point, when thoughts happened, generally speaking, they overtook awareness and my awareness would go. So I would either be aware, or I would be thinking, but in this experience, the thoughts still kept flowing through even verbal thoughts, but they didn't overtake awareness at all. And I remember actually, after a few minutes of this sitting in the Dhamma Hall, I was actually outside on a stoop overlooking the outdoors and my mosquito net, I think I was alone out there. Everyone else was indoors. And I actually burst out laughing, sitting on my meditation seat. There's been very few occasions in my meditative career that I've ever started laughing loudly during a meditation set. And this was one of them. I think what was so amusing to me, was, it was just so crystal clear, the selflessness of phenomena. And I was just like, oh, my goodness, I, this is what I get fooled by these tingling sensations throughout the body, these piercing sensations, these impulses, the impulse to move my hand, let alone the impulse to think or thought or push away, evade enough, or the just getting entangled in thoughts, none of that was happening. It was just like, Wow, I've been so fooled by this. And so involved in that experience, it was so obvious that all of that was optional, that wasn't a given in my experience, that I would get entangled, or identified or grasp on to things. So throughout that period, it was really quite remarkable. I mean, just the the depth and breadth of the awareness, like so much more was, I was able to detect or notice such finer detail in my experience, to notice, not both externally say different sounds in the periphery, but also internally, all the little subtleties of sensation, the little micro bubbles of thought that come on to the screen awareness. And so for the rest of that period, I just sort of sat back in that riverbank. And I wasn't at this point practicing. Or at this point, in the day in the meditation, I wasn't working with a technique, I just kind of let go back onto the riverbank, and just let it all wash through just nothing would stick, no thought or impulse, or emotion or feeling would hang on, it just all rolled right through. So then after that, of course, the meditation ends and it gets late into the night and that that depth of awareness left. And then the next day or for the rest of the night, it was really quite strong, but then go into sleep waking up the next day, it was no longer there. as things go permanence. And I didn't really have this kind of lusting or craving to get back to that mode. Instead, what I took it as was a big inspiration. And I saw, oh, this is why I'm practicing to get to this place where the mind just doesn't grasp. Things can just flow through where thoughts and feelings don't have to overtake the stability of presence. And so it served as a very powerful motivator. And really just a pointer. And as I mentioned earlier, that was about three months into a 21 month retreat, you know, somewhere over the course of the next year, maybe less than that, but just say the next year so it was as if I started to not just have a glimmer of that mode. But that that mode of being started to set in more as my baseline were a year, year and a half down the line. That was that experience were almost this kind of like river bank experience where I could just watch flow of thought feeling sensation move through unimpeded, Lee became increasingly a more normal way to experience reality. And it seems to be this really humorous, comical, extraordinary thing, and just became very ordinary, very basic. And the intensity of the impulses, or the intensity of the thoughts really dropped off. I think part of what made that initial experience so amazing to me at the time, was even with these intense thoughts bursting into consciousness, there was still no grabbing hold. But over time, the thoughts just quieted down where they didn't really come up so strongly anymore. So I looked back on that. And I, there are other moments, I can point to my meditative practice and Dharma practice, that served as something of a glimmer, or a pointer of what was possible or what was to come. And so what I reflect on with that experience, aspect that was really just very cool was how it really did serve as that for me, it proved to be relatively true, where, over time, I just stabilized more and more into that space. And it wasn't this, in the end, this extra ordinary, really bells and whistles, magical thing, but just this coolness and smoothness of experience. Yeah. Well even think of the basic, one of the basic practices I've worked with for years, is just noticing is there clinging, when in doubt, just look for clinging. And so that experience was a period of time and meditation period early on in practice, without clinging, and has served as a bit of a guide. Not just that, but this greater theme tapping into these experiences of what is it to abide in myself without clinging. And it's just been very rich, that that unfolding practice of continuing to chip away at this habit of grasping, clinging, of seeing deeper into the selflessness of these phenomena that we consider to be self, I consider to be self. And I think that that's kind of what I yeah, what I wanted to share here.
Host 12:32
Yeah, so a question about that. You mentioned that it was a experience or a state where there wasn't clinging and grasping? Would you then say that that was your first moment in life and meditation where you were aware that clinging was not present?
David Sudar 12:51
No, I would say, prior to that there were shorter periods of time, you know, might come for a few seconds or a minute. And then those experiences previously it had been usually say thoughts might just stop or there would just be no unpleasant feelings. So there would be nothing there. objectionable that my mind would be tempted to cling on to. And they would usually be brief. And so this was an experience with no clinging where there were still a bunch of sensation, like strong sensations and feelings and thoughts. And even in that there was no clinging. And it wasn't just for a minute it it really lasted, relatively speaking long enough for me to really drop into it and settle into it.
Host 13:43
Right, right. So you were able to not just be in that state or having a momentary awareness, but to actually live in that state for a more extended time and to be able to explore reflect or contemplate on what the mind was like when it was in that sustained state of not clinging, is that correct? Yes. Right. And when the state came about when you reflected on the experience, was there anything different that you did or certain conditions that led to it? Or do you have any thoughts on what was able to facilitate this state arising in that way? Or do you think it was just it wasn't anything you could point to? But it was just sustained practice over the course of many hours, months, years, that culminated in that moment, or was there some more localized condition you can point to?
David Sudar 14:43
Yeah, when I reflect back on it, the primary thing, and even at the time, the primary thing I would have pointed to was just that cumulative effect of practice being on retreat for so long, specifically. And no, it wasn't like this. There weren't other markers. But just over the course of retreat, there were other just little signs of progress and things that just deepen. And, you know, if anything I had to point to that was a little more specific, beyond just the accumulation of time was just that the quality of right effort of orienting myself to practice in such a way with a lot of patience and perseverance, and not grasping towards results, or really wanting some particular state. And I really had this mentality of just, I'm just slow and steady one day at a time, you just said you do your practice, do it in a balanced way, without getting frustrated or checking out if it's not going how I wanted to or not reaching really far, if it if it seems to be close. And, you know, I look back. And I think that with that experience, and others, that was a particular way I was practicing, that seemed to be a really central
Host 16:02
way of practicing meaning that at this stage, you weren't really trying to seek after something that wasn't there and trying to attain a state or develop some quote unquote, success with your meditation that that that was. So in some way, would that be a condition that you let go of that helped to facilitate having this moment where clinging wasn't present?
David Sudar 16:26
Yeah, I think so. It seems to be a big part of it. Just that that ability to practice in a way without reaching for something, because it seemed like the fundamental part of that experience, even when it was happening. And like I mentioned, say, the next day when it wasn't there, though, look back in the whole period, there wasn't this like wanting more of it, or wanting it to last longer, or to drop deeper into it, or to get back to it. And what I've seen at other points, in my practice, when I've had more of that mindset, that very wanting the thing, and wanting more of the thing, or a deeper of the thing, it prevents it from happening at all.
Host 17:08
Right. And I guess this leads to a question of wanting to know more about what it was you were practicing. Of course, there's a lot of different ways and methods that these teachings of the Buddha can be practiced, especially in Myanmar, a lot of different traditions. And so I'm curious about if the particular way that you were practicing the set of instructions or methodology or techniques that you were given, what role that played in this moment of having this realization. So to take a step back, before answering how much your particular tradition and technique affected this realization, I think would be educating listeners on what it was you were practicing it was the same dotasia Nia method in the human tradition, if you could give some kind of overview of, say dotasia knees teachings and how you were applying them in this extended practice environment.
David Sudar 18:11
So I would say I was practicing the rotation, he said, rotation, Nia scheuermann approach, the way I've related to that practice evolved over time and in different circumstances, require different approaches. So at that time, I was, well, a big part of my practice all the way through with the mutation, Nia approaches is a really fine tuning one's attitude. So initially, it was a lot of just asking myself pretty regularly, what's my attitude is their craving is their equanimity, their aversion. And so developing a really fine sensitivity to the ways that craving and aversion creep into the experience. And so that was one of the real backdrops is just really monitoring that aspect of the mind. And another big part of his approach is a real attunement to awareness itself. And by that I mean, an awareness that isn't dependent on a particular technique or method. And while he will, sometimes when people go to him and tell him I'm doing on upon a mindfulness of breathing, or I'm doing body scans, or I'm doing any number of techniques, you know, I've heard him say various things to various people on these, but the overwhelming thrust I got was, will do whatever is helpful to be aware, but just don't get dependent on one particular method as if that's the only thing that you can be aware with. And so taking that advice to heart, I looked at my practice at that time, I would go through a number of different approaches. I remember for example, in that stretch in particular before that happen, I would just I would say, three words to myself seen, I would meditate with my eyes open. And this was also walking to the dining hall or doing formal walking meditation or in the shower, I would say, seeing, hearing feeling. And I would open myself up when I said scene, I would take 10 seconds to just open to the field of scene, not focusing on one particular object, being aware of scene, and then with hearing, I would just open to the field of hearing. And then with feeling, I would just open to all the sensations in the body. And then there were times when my mind would be in awareness and become a little more stable, I would just open to the whole field of experience, just a more open aware, inclusive awareness. And then there were times where the minds a little more scattered, and I would focus in a little bit more and just hang out with the body sensations, either with the field of body sensations or doing a little bit of a very gentle body scan. But so when I say that the emphasis was really on in any moment, what is helpful to me to be aware in this moment. And so my allegiance was not to a particular technique, but just really monitoring awareness and the quality of awareness, is there awareness here isn't there, and developing my own set of skillful means and tools. So which directions Can I lean, to help bring awareness about and stabilize awareness. And, and then, of course, the other stuff, too, about the attitude and just monitoring the way I was practicing. And at that time, that was really a big part of my practice, was fusing those two elements together.
Host 21:52
Right. And this is kind of indicative of, say, two engineers. Instruction, you could say, of not narrowing it down on a prescription to follow a certain step one, step two, step three, now do this and this and this, but a more wide open general parameter on where the practice goes. And then putting more of the onus on the meditators to find their own way, and their own and their own practice of how to how to move in the general direction that rotation is pointing. Would you agree with that?
David Sudar 22:29
Yeah, totally, I often think of his teaching is really very wisdom centered. And where what he wanted to help Yogi's do is to help them learn the mind, and learn how to be skillful in meditation. And so he was really very anti prescription, like, I don't want to just give you some method or technique and go do it. I want to arm you with the principles of meditation and the underlying ideas. And then you can go kind of play with it and try it out for yourself and see what works and doesn't. And I found that I always, prior to getting in touch with mutation, Nia and learning that style of practice. I don't often struggled with the schools of meditation that were just, here's a technique, you know, do a body scan or watch the breath, do some mental noting, and just do that technique all day, all the time, just hammer that technique home. And I think I tend to have a very active, curious mind. As a child, I was off the charts with ADHD. And I've always been just very curious and lots of questions. And so coming into a style of practice, that he was encouraging us to get curious about our experience, to have interest and to explore things. I really I had a real spirit of playfulness and curiosity to my practice. How could I try this and maybe I'll look at it from this angle. And in my time with him, he'll he really encouraged that. When I when I would go and speak to him, he'd usually mean oftentimes he just asked me questions like, well, what did you notice? To be skillful or unskillful? What was the cause and effect? And so just having someone really pointed me to that cause and effect and in very rarely was he did he say something like, No, you should not do that, or Yes, you should not. It was just really encouraging my own learning process.
Host 24:35
That's interesting. And it's also, you know, it's a testament that often whether Dhamma teachers or other teachers, but teachers teach others how they themselves learned and according to their disposition, so having a Dhamma teacher that didn't really focus so much on academia and just went right into the practice might result in a in a whole tradition that is focused more on just practice itself and not really acknowledging the role of partiality or conversely to that having a teacher that really, in his youth delved into the study of the Scriptures and saw the value in knowing and understanding a deeper level, and then reflecting on that with a practice would present those side by side and you can go on and on about the different kinds of teacher personalities and what techniques they developed. And I mean, one I find quite interesting is the Sun Moon technique, which is I've never practiced, but I've heard is quite rigorous and challenging. And, of course, Susan moon was was this, he ordained late in life, he was this kind of hardscrabble farmer living in a hot land and just living this tough life. And so, you know, it's not surprising that a really tough difficult technique would come from someone who had lived a pretty rough and austere life. But going to Tasmania, I've heard others suggest that, you know, as a child as a Dhamma, student, dotasia, Nia was a bit rebellious by nature and rejected and challenged authority. And so to then be a teacher himself, that rebellious upbringing that he had could come out in his teachings of not wanting to didactically tell people this is the stages or steps you should follow. And now I'm the authority that should be listened to this way. But that rebellious nature of his own learning and own challenging and how he came to the practice is now somewhat possibly how he set up his instruction and his methodology of people coming to learn from him, in giving that sense of freedom and exploration, rather than, you know, you need to do this. And then you do this, because that's not who he was. And that's not how he learned. Yeah,
David Sudar 26:46
it reminds me of, I heard him say a number of times, of how he didn't think of himself as a guru, or even a teacher, he was just another practitioner right? along the way. He's done a lot of practice, and he's learned some things. So people want to come to him, they'll share what he knows. And in that I did, I found, this might be a little bit tangential. But I found this very refreshing way that he, he just seemed really down to earth about those sides, his practice, and he's like, well, I don't know, I don't know all the things. I'm not an art. But in that there was this real. They're enabled a real sense of like freshness, and a lightness and honesty, and kind of what you're saying, this just real encouragement to just trust your own experience in. And of course, you know, I say this, he also is a Buddhist monk, and dives deep into the Buddhist practices and has a real reverence for, obviously, for his teachers from inside on the Buddha and lineage. And so I really loved how he balanced kind of what you're talking about the rebelliousness in the Down to Earth, Venus, while still very much being part of a tradition, and really dropping deeper into that tradition.
Host 28:09
Right. So then speaking about you and your personal spiritual journey, you came from before rutaceae, Nia, practicing like these more structured techniques of First you do this, and then this and then this. And then you went into much this wider world of of playfulness and curiosity, as you mentioned. So getting back to that moment at play that we're talking about, where things really opened up for you for an extended time, and there was this lack of, of grasping in that moment, or an awareness of the grasping taking place without you doing it blindly. How much do you think that that realization in that moment of openness happening, played into moving from doing more structured techniques to practicing in a more open way? Do you think that played a role in that moment taking place?
David Sudar 29:06
Yeah, I do think for myself that that was pretty Central. I look at it. I've heard a number of places and I can't recall it offhand. But I've heard referenced the Buddha teaching so many different things to different people just have different techniques work with different temperaments. And I've even seen this now teaching meditation in the states of how I can do a sometimes I'll teach a class on methods, for example, and I'll present three or four different methods in a short period of time. And then we have a discussion on how this one for everyone and people can have dramatically different experiences of different techniques. You can do metta, mindfulness of breathing and open awareness and someone's like, oh, open awareness. I just dropped right in but then metta Wow, that was so challenging. It was just my head hurt and then the next person And count the opposite experience. And so I've seen that I think a lot of practice, especially in the early phases, is just finding an approach that really suits our temperament. And for me, and my temperament, doing the very hyper focused, very, kind of look at this little microscopic spot, and you just pound away at it with the smarty hammer, it really didn't seem to actually work very well for me. And I would get kind of tense and bored. And it just wasn't, it wasn't as engaging. And I found shifting to this more curious open style of practice. It was one just more relaxing, but to for me, because I come in with a pretty curious mind, it actually really played with my strengths rather than fight against them. And so there is a way that personally, I believe that that really helped me drop deeper into practice and help facilitate deeper insight. Because I was I was going with the grain of what I will, my temperament was, worked for it. And I do want to put a little disclaimer in there, I do believe the mind is very malleable. And I've seen this for myself. And I'm inclined to say, if anyone sticks with any technique for long enough, and you have a good teacher that can give you some pointers, I'm inclined to say any technique is going to eventually work sooner or later. But we can help ourselves out by finding one earlier rather than later that does suit us.
Host 31:39
Yeah, I really agree with that i really resonate as well. I think I think we share a lot in common because when I first started practicing neutropenia, one of the I had a number of huge insights that I almost felt like that my practice up to that point, was just on the verge of being able to see a lot of different things. But because the instruction I wasn't getting at that time, was encouraging me to look over at those things that was on the precipice. I wasn't open to them. And when I was able to get and grasp what it was the duty engineer wanted me to look at, it was just a question of using that momentum and discipline to look in a different way. And it just hammered me and it could sense of the word of how all these things just flowing, that I was just right on the verge of but I just needed to look in that direction. And when you talk about the mind, you know, one of the big insights I had is I'm like you I'm curious, I active mind, I critically minded, you can say. And when I first started my practice, I felt that one thing is I saw the danger and the damage I done to myself by the mind going endlessly and endlessly on. And because the practice that I was initially doing didn't really have a role for that critical analysis to take place. I kind of conflated this runaway mind with any kind of like critical thought or exploration or interest or anything like that is just something to come out of, like, I just, I don't want to give any food to it, I want to starve it and there's no role for this. It's caused me so much suffering and is kind of trying to fit it. What do they say a square peg in a round hole or the other way around, where I was trying to crash and starve. who I am and how you know how the mind came to be and or how, what I know of my mind in this life. And and I do think that I second what you say that staying with a tradition, and dedicated to it and getting good instruction. I was making improvements. I was learning things. And I was getting good, insightful guidance of how to work with it. But I still couldn't really see a place for that critical mind and thought to take place. And when I practice to tinea, that there's so much space made for whatever the experience and the manifestation is. And so when that whatever form the thinking would take, that wasn't an impediment to meditation that was actually an object of meditation. When you see it in kind of a playful, open way, there's no set instruction of what to do with it. But when you really see what he's pointing at, it became something that I could recognize as being a naturally occurring phenomenon within me and perhaps more within me than many other people having this tendency, and being able to, to be curious about why it was manifesting what was manifesting how I can learn about the nature of mind by by that observation. And I, I think that some of those insights, were in line with other things I've been practicing. It's not like, like you, I don't Want to in any way discount the path that I was on or, or the value of other traditions and certainly staying with that I think these insights would have come in time. But by making such a space for them in the moment, they It was so integrated and so holistic and seeing that, yes, I'm, I'm a critical thinker. I think a lot. I think things that are nonsense, I go to some places where I don't know what I'm doing. But then a good idea comes out and etc, etc. And to be able to bring that into the meditation instead of trying to take it out of the meditation was was a game changer for me.
David Sudar 35:40
Yeah, I especially like what you said, just that balance of kind of first, noting all the suffering that has come about by just letting our mind run wild and free. And I think sometimes the way I hear meditation talked about more generally, is thought is portrayed as something like an enemy, or this bad thing that because the only association of it sometimes in meditative circles can be that side of it. Of that, oh, yeah, the thoughts just run free. And they're obsessive and compulsive and just endless and going in circles. And so I think that the first part for me is really seeing Yes, that that's true. And so the the solution to that, though, and kind of some what you're speaking to and what I spoke to that I so appreciated about mutation, Nia, is he wasn't endorsing that side, he's like, No, you can't just let the mind run free. That's not what I'm talking about. But there's a and this is some of the wisdom aspect to me, we're seeing it, it's more of, I guess, we might say, a middle way. It's not stopping thought on one side, and it's not letting it run free on the other. But it's where can we find that middle point where we're actually harnessing it. And even the Buddha reference quite a bit using the reflective capacity of mine. It's all throughout the suitors. You even he has the five daily recollections, he's like, you should reflect on five things. Sure, there's, you would suggest reflecting on much more than five. But it's just to say, we go to the teachings of the Buddha, and then the teachings of citation, you know, finding that middle point, and this was some of the investigation that I found so interesting was, okay, where can I find that sweet spot with thought? And what does that look like? What is the ways in which it is a skillful aid? And when is it hindering me? And just refining the sensitivity and intuition of what that looks like? And also as awareness builds and gets stronger, not just having the recognition of, Oh, this is skillful or unskillful. But the actual ability to follow through on that? Oh, yeah, this thought is like, no, this is just poncha. This is proliferating thought, versus Oh, yeah, this is actually wise reflection, or this isn't a skillful question to put to the mind. And I just found that process of sorting through that and looking more closely and finding that middle way to be so powerful.
Host 38:09
Yeah, reflecting on that you shared a moment of insight to you and it just hearing you talk. Now, it reminds me of a moment of insight for me, showing him in where I was kind of on the cusp of, of grasping what it was that the direction that dotasia Nia was pointing us in because it's not. For those that haven't been to Tasmania, or for those that haven't been to many traditions out there. And know the contrast in other centers or monasteries, when you go, it's really a pretty strict protocol in terms of what you submit to in terms of the teacher and the teaching. And then what he gives you and teaches you where she teaches you in return. And there's just more of a looseness and openness of cutanea. And so when I first went there was like, Well, what exactly am I supposed to be doing? And is this the direction I'm supposed to be doing it in? Is it like this, or this and just a little bit of confusion coming from that more structure. And when I was right on the cusp of kind of getting what he meant by that openness, I remember the moment quite clearly I was walking in the Dhamma Hall walking back and forth in the middle aisle. And as I was trying to be aware of the Sixth Sense doors, following what I understood of the technique, and if you call it a technique, and at that moment, I suddenly had this like loud cacophony in my head of like, you know, music and thoughts is kind of bursting at once like you, you get in moments of meditation where things still down and then you get a big burst from something underneath. And I immediately kind of tensed up and just this automatic subconscious reaction of like, Oh, I'm screwing up, I'm not supposed to be doing this. I'm wasting my time here. This is I need to be doing this valuable meditation practice and I kind of got knocked off and Okay, I have to have to just focus myself and center myself and get back to what I'm supposed to be doing. You know, this all occurred in like half a second. This, this whole Muscle tensing, tensing, tensing and mind kind of kind of narrowing and focusing. And suddenly, I realized that the next mind moment was like, Wait a second, like, this is this cacophony that just occurred in my mind is a sixth sense store, the mind is one of the Sixth Sense stores. And I can observe this, this can be part of the practice here. And it was just, it was overwhelming in that moment to realize that was possible, just to realize in that moment, that I did not have to push this away and quote, unquote, get back to the core of the practice, but I could actually live with this reality and be curious about it. And all my years decade plus, as a meditator, I had never realized that I had that power. And so I continued walking up and down the hall observing the cacophony in my head, and it got louder and louder and developed into a ascendo, and all these different sounds. And then and part of my mind, was this kind of like, what are you doing, you're, you're just playing, this is not what meditation is. But I could hear that voice. And see, that was just another conditioned reaction. It wasn't me. So I kept observing. And like you, I started smiling. And I was just like, this has no power over me. I don't, I'm not trying to quiet it. And I'm not ashamed of it. I'm not, I'm not rolling in it, I'm just, this is the reality and it went to this crescendo. And then like, you know, it, it dissolved and silence was there. And that but that silence wasn't a better state for me than a coffee, it was just another mind moment of nature, observing what or manifesting what is in that moment. And then as I continued walking back and forth, like sometimes that noise would gather and accumulate, and then crescendo and dissolve again, but it was all okay and part of the practice and to, to have someone with such an active, noisy, engaged mind realizing that, that very thing could be looked at, rather than tried to calm down through another method of calming of focusing of coming to center. Because all of those things is as valuable as they were in their own way. It's still I wasn't aware of what was actually happening, I was I was getting into, I was using another practice or technique to, to calm that intensity and to be able to welcome that intensity was, you know, was a moment for me and realizing what meditation could be even after so many years of doing meditation, that it was just another door of like, Ah, this also works.
David Sudar 42:40
It's really beautiful to hear it's kind of that teaching mutation your offers on right attitude, and that ability, okay, yeah, there's some noise in the mind or there's some, some experience happening. And maybe there's some degree of even aversion or grasping built in it, like okay, this is intense. But then it's how are we relating to that? And I think similar to you, I had a lot of those experiences of starting to see I think for me, it started just even externally of I remember in Myanmar, the the first few months having a lot of a lot of reactions to the sound of the different generators going the Burmese Dharma talks and blaring and crackly speakers, construction projects that seem to be happening like every few blocks, all the other sounds and there is this big process I've had around just as like a version coming up towards the sound and thinking like Well, no. Meditation, you should be quiet like that, because it helps you drop in and be more focused. Hmm. I think there was initially just some really learning to welcome all those sounds in and really see, oh, this doesn't have to actually be a problem. Can this just be part of the practice too? And I found the more I was able to welcome those things in it then lent itself a little more to some, you're speaking about some of the more inner stuff that comes up, like oh, okay, yeah, this too. I don't need to swap this away. Oh, yeah, I could calm down the mind. Like if I have that tool accessible to me. It's not a bad route. But this route also is pretty good. And for me actually seemed to work a little bit better of just welcoming it and looking at it a little more closely. Oh, okay. Yeah, this is here and this is okay, rises, passes. This does a little dance. But, but I guess some of what I'm speaking to is also maybe this is some of what you're referring to or not. But sometimes I would notice that when I would have some sort of reaction or thought come up there. I could like lay around reactions on top of reactions, some aversion that would come up and then I'd be at frustrated, like, oh, why is this aversion coming up? I thought I was like, Can I just be present? And so starting to more and more welcome that in like, Oh, yeah, sometimes I craving happens sometimes aversion comes into the mind, sometimes the mind gets contracted and tense and noisy, and just, Oh, can I notice that with a spirit of equanimity, and just okay, that's what's here. Now, welcome that just continue. And so that too, is I think something mutation you have pointed out, though, specifically, more than I've heard from other teachers, that was a really big eight.
Host 45:42
Yeah, that's true. And I It reminds me of when I was seeing the teaching, approach, one of the theories I kind of had, and this is just a, this is like a take, right? So this is not me trying to give a historical lesson or two, to say with absolute certainty how, you know how to contrast different people who came along at different times. It's just kind of a theory that that I developed that may or may land with people in different ways. So it's loosely said, but the theory is that when I was looking at how he was teaching, I was thinking Well, well, he came along as a teacher after some of these other great big traditions in Burma, you know, like Pandita, mahasi, Blanka, some loom, mogul, etc. And these traditions themselves when they came were quite revolutionary in their own way. I mean, they were like, you know, they were delivering mass teachings, or I should say, they were delivering teachings to mass groups of people promising individual liberation and salvation through their own practice, regardless of their age, or gender, or monastic or lay background. And this was something that was really unprecedented in terms of the reach and the power of what they were doing that had ever come before this, many people are meditating. And what they were doing was all an experiment, you know, they were, these are definitely wise and learned people, but they're, they're using modern techniques, to be able to deliver these courses to so many different people. And they're doing them in different ways. And so there's just this incredible innovation going on for what they're what they're doing. And whenever you're doing innovation, you can kind of you can move the bar up, you know, definitely one, rung two runs three, rungs, whatever. But then when you move it up those rungs, you can't, how to say it like, at that stage, there's still an evaluation that has to happen for where it has to fit or slot in better, and where it can be improved on one or two rungs above that. And that isn't really possible for innovation, because you can't really innovate on the innovation, you have to do the innovation first. And when I saw how rotation he was teaching, and how he was structuring it, it really seemed to me, like the next generation of innovation that like he's taking these extraordinary structures that these other great traditions have set before any scene, just little things that they seem to perhaps you've seen these little things that they maybe have missed, or that were the messaging was going in this direction, then people took it too far and took it this way, or they thought it this way, and they weren't really something that couldn't really be seen at the time. So it's not a criticism of those other traditions, it's just an acknowledgement that they were doing what they could at the time. And because so much of cutaneous messaging is about this, this site, well, there's so many components to it. But one of those is concerning the sense of success, a meditator wants to have the sense of weight of wanting to do it correctly, the sense of focus that exhausts you this sense of taking one set of instructions and following them rigorously. All these other things he speaks to directly that were developments and innovations of the previous generation. And so in some ways, it seemed like he was having because he came along later, he was having this insight of things that maybe weren't working as well as they could and then speaking directly to them. And meditators that are in those other traditions that then hear this talk, I remember I read one of his books years before I ever went to his center. And while I was never while I was still very happy with what I was practicing. But even just the words of the book impacted me of how I was continuing on that meditation that just just putting, just making me aware of the pressure I was putting on myself and how tight I was holding it and that that I could release that in some ways. I never heard that messaging before. So it it just kind of was interesting to me to see like another generation of innovation in filling in these cracks of how the teaching is being delivered.
David Sudar 49:47
Yeah, really similar thoughts and specifically noted, it felt to me like rotation he was playing off of the mahasi tradition specifically quite a bit. Sure. I remember once hearing someone joking around that shadow men was sort of like a recovery room for former mahasi meditators. And, and I think part of that kind of what you're saying with the innovation, I think a lot of it, and I never met him inside a bit before my time, but you know the history. So sign up mutation is teacher show. minsiter was one of the foremost disciples of mahasi cida. And, you know, my memory might be getting this wrong, but I seem to recall that he ran the yongan mahasi, sesame. showman Zara did for some time, either that or mahasi site I wanted him to, which is just to say he was very steeped in the mahasi tradition, and had the seal of approval from Seaside. And yet he then left to go start his own monastery. And I don't know quite all the historical details behind that. But the approach of practice that show him inside I began teaching was very distinct from mahasi. site, and is pretty similar to what rutaceae Nia teaches. It's more an extension of scheuermann. And so it kind of what you're saying that that sequence of innovation, what I imagine Shwe Oo Min Sayadaw saw and what U Tejaniya continued to deepen and refine in his own way, was a lot of those blind spots of not just the mahasi tradition, but a lot of that wave of teaching around. And so I've personally benefited a lot of practicing that mutation approach. By my also my prior studies of the Glinka approach and the mahasi approach is really just that with that flavor of Burmese Buddhism and then seeing, oh, this is why we changing it seems to keep emphasizing this so much.
Host 51:54
Right, right. It's a response in some ways.
David Sudar 51:57
And I think even in another like, and then there's the things you touched on, too, that he doesn't mention, in my practices, for example, with the mahasi tradition, they would talk a lot about the stages of insight, the 16 stages of insight that you proceed up through the insights into Duka and impermanence and on to equanimity, and then awakening happens in Bhutan. India would never talk about those. And I remember asking him once, and he is just like, Yeah, he just kind of brushed it off aside. And he's like, well, it's not really important. Like know, your experience, you know, your mind. And where you're at on some map is kind of what you said, I think some of where he was pointing out was, or in his view, was that getting hung up on those maps, really leads to this striving for progress in this kind of grasping, that he's seen is not actually that helpful for most meditators. And maybe putting words in his mouth here. But he just his real, real reluctance to talk about those or go into them, even though he clearly knew them. I also found very, very fascinating.
Host 53:11
Yeah, yeah, certainly. And I think that it's really interesting to look at the how loose both show you man and occasionally whole, their teachings. And by that I can give a couple anecdotes that I've heard so as far as swayman say, I've heard this story about how he was instrumental in allowing going cuz courses to be approved to be taught in Myanmar people might not know this outside of Myanmar, but you can't just set up shop and teach whatever you want. And say it's the Buddhist teachings these this this could be quite damaging if you're misrepresenting these teachings that people hold so sacred and are trying to preserve this Asana. And so if you want to teach something has to be approved by a body of senior monks. And with Goenka there was a bit of hesitation he was he wasn't a born Buddhist, he was Indian. He wasn't even in Myanmar at the time, he was exiled and, and then Moreover, he was from a different school from mahasi mahasi was really the state sponsored practice and all the offshoots received a lot of support from the government and being able to spread this technique. I was just talking to another guest a few months ago, and he was referencing in the early days, Pollock's books could not be printed, because the entire printing press was controlled by the government and the government, the entire government was influenced by mahasi. And they saw Pollock's teaching is damaging to their style. And so there's enormous control here. And and so there's there's some hesitation and concern about going because teachings being just very different from what was in the norm at the time, and swim inside. I was one who really spoke up and really supported going on and thought that these 10 day courses were great and his instruction was just Wonderful and this was and there was some quote he said, I'm paraphrasing the way it was relayed to me said something in the senior songa meeting like, you know, if people want to come and practice in a loose and relaxed way they should come to them. And if they want to practice in a rigorous and structured way they should practice in Glinka. These are both great techniques, and people should have the opportunity to be able to practice both of them. And there's there's so many ways to apply the Buddhist teachings and show them and say it would so rarely speak forcefully or advocate for something he was he was known as being quite economical with his words quite circumspect. That it carried the day and that going cuz teachings being licensed in 1992, calm and set up in Burma really can be credited to the strong support that shamans say it showed, even though he had a completely different style of teaching and said, as much in the meeting just felt that those two kinds of practices and many more that people should have the opportunity for them, it's just how lightly and loosely Do you have to hold your own teachings in your own path, to not just tolerate and accept other ways of going about it, but actually embrace it and support and advocate. And I think that, that also speaks to just the diversity that you find in Myanmar today, and that you a practitioner is able to come and to have such a wide choice of different paths and teachers that they want to practice according to their own predilection and background.
David Sudar 56:32
It's really fascinating. I didn't know that about the scheuermann support for for going on 10 day courses. But it really, I mean, it also, I see saw some of that reflected in nutrition, you know, when people would go and tell them. Remember, there are a group of people who wanted to go do a two month mahasi retreat. And he just was like, yeah, you know, go do it, see what you learn. And I just appreciated that openness. And even a, you know, On a similar note, when I was in the robes with rotation, yeah. And when I told him, I was going to disrobe and go back home to the States. The primary thing he said to me was, he was just kind of like, Okay, well, it's like, same practice, just different conditions. He's like, you can still practice like the robes not as important just like, keep the practice going. And I, I found it really remarkable. And he said it because my, my thought a lot of times is people who are in the robes or in the monastic tradition, it's, there's a real sacred, right? Someone says, they're gonna stop being a monk, oftentimes, it's like, well, why why would you do that you shouldn't do that, and kind of try and convince you otherwise, or, but he was just so like, if that's what you feel you need to do, go do it, you can still practice, like, still possible. And I really appreciated that. Just that spirit he had towards a lot of things, just trusting people with where they were at. And you know, of course, if someone said, they're going to go do something really outrageous, he'd be like, I want to go to the bar tomorrow, you'd be like, No, no, you know, but yeah, so I just, I guess I see some of that quality that you're mentioning with women mirrored and how mutation you're related to students as well.
Host 58:21
Yeah, sure. And I think of it in the loose way he holds it, you know, when you go to other centers and other traditions, it's like, there is all this background and justification and theory and like, why their practice, why this practice being taught, and the way it's being taught kind of has the sacredness, and this, this parallel in the scriptures and everything is supported. And at those centers, it's often forbidden that those monasteries and traditions it's often forbidden to even talk about other practices or traditions, you're really there just to learn that and there's a sense of aversion or fear, outside of other practices, doing other things, because there's so much attachment in that style, and that history and narrative that's been formed. And so I was also stunned when I went to show them in how loosely EU Tanzania holds it. And that not only is this kind of discussion about other practices and contrasting, not not forbidden, but I've been in sessions where people have meditators have stood up and the question and answer and just said directly Well, you know, you got this part right and this is okay, but you're wrong in this and like this doesn't really work this way. And you know, this doesn't accord to how things are there and you're mistaken over here and there's just no defense on his side there's there's no defensiveness I should say there's there's no vulnerability of of having to like you know, pull the guards around and protect what this tradition is saying and hold on to it tightly. It's just kind of like Well, okay, this is this is what I'm teaching and this is how I understand it you know, and welcome to you want to take these points. You could take these points you want to go somewhere else, you can go somewhere else and it's it's just remarkable to see a tradition that's able to carry itself, you know, from the leader on down because obviously, in any spiritual tradition or or corporation or family or community or anything, the culture and the characteristics of the person on top is what subtly influences everyone that come into it. And so this real detachment and the just the loose way he holds what he's teaching, than others learn, they can also hold it that way. And that they don't have to be defensive, they don't have to, to be to be skeptical, looking at wisdom that can come from other places, but they can, they can hold it loosely. And that I think that that relaxation, that comes from holding it loosely actually can go into the practice and the ease of the mind as it as it starts to, to be aware.
David Sudar 1:00:51
Maybe even bringing that a little bit full circle, the initial story that I realized, where it seems like a lot of the practice, that experience I had was insight into not self, or just selflessness just to see all these, they're just phenomena that are occurring in the mind, and I don't need to hold on to them. And so in the same way, you mentioned, the lack of defensiveness, when someone's telling side off, oh, well, I think it should be this way or that or you got this right or wrong. A lot of what he was instilling was, my perspective is a real focus in the three characteristics of Duka and Nietzsche are not suffering permanence and not self. The focus to me seemed to really be on the not self characteristic, right? See, everything is just nature. It's just phenomenon. And so, so say in an example of not being defensive, there's a really internalizing to the practice of just like, okay, yep, maybe in his mind, I don't know his mind. Maybe in his mind, there was some defensive thought. But then, maybe there wasn't, but the practice is so much about just just okay, this is just what's here. I don't need to react to it. And in each moment, how can I respond or act skillfully and wisely, because there is such a deep internalization of just the selflessness of all the phenomenon, I don't need to hold on to these, let it flow and, and then I found that there was a real translation and that movement, the deeper I found, for myself, or just then, but over the course of my old time practicing even to this day, the more that I can touch into that space of not self, you know, I'm subtler and subtler levels, the more there is that chance to really respond skillfully. Whether that is responding to someone who's telling me I'm wrong, or that's even, you know, making bigger structural life choices like, well, what, what do I do I want to teach? Or do I want to just like, practice? Or do I want to just as simple life, or we can really sort through the even the views, the clinging to different views about how life should be or what I want or don't want to really sort through that like, okay, no, that feels like reactivity? calesa, then find a route of wise responses. I guess just what I'm saying there is I found a real link between that quality of practice he teaches and the ability to act more wisely in my life.
Host 1:03:31
Right, right. And I don't know if you can answer this because it's theoretical. So in your prior practice, as a meditator when you were engaged in systems that were more structured and and technique based. You went from that into this more open instruction of say, dotasia Nia, and it was in that moment of practice that this transformative awareness took place. Do you think that that transformative moment could also have come about for you I'm not talking about for someone else, because we're, you know, as we talked about, there's it's not like there's a perfect tradition or practice people have their own needs, of who they are and what they need even even at a different time in their life. But for you, do you think that coming from a place of more structured technique could still have led in some way to that moment of non grasping and that that that incredible transformative moment of awareness? Or do you think that the path that you were on of the open awareness was something that was really imperative and necessary for the conditions to arise that you could enter into that state?
David Sudar 1:04:46
Well, someone as I mentioned earlier, I think that I look at it less in terms of like a yes or no and more on the efficiency scale or timeline right. That approach saved me a lot of time, right? I like I trust the basics of the Dharma and the practice that I think those experiences and those insights would have come about. Either way, it might just have taken me longer to get there. Right.
Host 1:05:18
Right. So and this is something this moment that you had this awareness, this, this has been something like a stepping stone or a foundation that your subsequent meditative work has been built off of, is that fair to say? Um,
David Sudar 1:05:35
no, I think it was more. I guess I would say in the context of that time in Myanmar, I mean, really, I had a prior experience about, I don't know, maybe trying to think of dates right now. We'll just say many years before that, I don't know, 10 years or so five to 10 years, eight, or 10, out of a number of years before I had another meditative experience. That happened a little more out of context and sporadically, but just this real deep insight into not sell. But that was that was like a split second. Hmm. Just like my whole consciousness, restructured in a way that that moment, really, my whole life pretty dramatically changed after that. And that's what led me to getting really seriously into meditation, are interested in wanting to do something like go on a 21 month retreat.
1:06:37
Right.
David Sudar 1:06:38
And so I look at that prior experience is probably been the most transformative moment of my life. But it was like, I had no context for an I didn't even really know what happened to me. And it was it was just like a split moment. It wasn't like, there was nothing I can really nothing I could reproduce or knew what what to even say what it was. But it just like the whole, it was just like the selflessness. So some, like split moment insight into like, oh, everything, like, yeah, I'm not my thoughts. I'm not my feelings, like time isn't real. Just like their past and future are just concepts. And there's just a moment. But I didn't have a practice or a training to stabilize that at all right. And so then that experience in Myanmar that I relayed earlier, I think was probably since that time, it was like, one of the first times that split moment, like, I call it an insight, but the maybe even some, like, we could call it like a deep heart intuition on like, what's possible, or what the nature of reality is. But there is still so much delusion, in my experience, there is no stabilization. And so that experience from earlier that I've talked about, it was like it's stabilized in it in an enduring way, for maybe the first time. And so it was some of the laughter was almost like, Oh, this is like, this is where this goes to a place where it's like stabilized. And I am not my thoughts isn't just some like intuition or some sentiment, but it's like an actual steady moment to moment reality that is, is capable of not being broken. And so I look at them, that initial moment, and then all the meditative experience I had after that. And then the moment I talked about earlier, Myanmar is kind of like just different. Different markers on the same timeline, slowly led to just a stabilization of that mode of like, oh, by the I would say now I'm several years removed from that and have a live in lay life and get to still go on a couple months of retreat a year and have a daily practice but definitely not in this like really deep stabilization of seeing not getting entangled in thoughts, for example, but towards the end of that, a pretty sizable chunk of that 21 month retreat. That experience just it's stabilized so deeply, or that I didn't really have to even do sitting meditation anymore. It wasn't necessary to sit and close my eyes and practices just like oh yeah, the mind just doesn't really get entangled and stuff so much. And yeah, so in some senses, I see to your question, was it like a stepping stone? I think it was just like a marker of for sada of inspiration and faith like, Oh, yeah, this is I'm on the right track like this is possible like, just keep going. Keep going. And so, yeah, it had a real beautiful significance, but it was part of a bigger timeline.
1:10:08
Right,
Host 1:10:08
right. Did you I think you mentioned that EU Tasmania wasn't present when that occurred. At that moment when the insight came, did you talk to him eventually about it or talk to other people in the tradition? Or did you have any kind of conversation or guidance or instruction based on the experience you had at that time? Yeah, so
David Sudar 1:10:27
I ended up seeing him not too long after a few weeks, and I told him about it. And he just sounded really unimpressed. I crazy, just kind of like, Okay, what have you noticed or what's different now or? So? Are you going to stop practicing? Because he had this insight? I don't think he actually said that. But that was like, you really just like, okay, yeah, that sounds great. So um, you know, what do you know now and Okay, keep going. Right? Which I in some respects, I was a little disappointed because he knows an interview, go report to teacher this grand experience and you want the nation. But he Yeah, he just really gave me that. It furthered that almost go with that right attitude perspective of we don't get worked up over the difficulties, but we also don't get worked up over the breakthroughs. It's just like, okay, yeah, that happened. That's like, great, but we just got to keep keep going.
Host 1:11:30
take it in stride.
1:11:31
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Host 1:11:35
That's really wonderful. It's great to hear about that experience, and everything that built off from it, also the things that led to it. And I think also, what's really cool is just having this discussion where we're going into such depth of the practice itself and insights that come from it, I think that there can sometimes be a reticence of meditators sharing openly about what experiences they're going through, I want to say in formal meditation, but I know that the the line of you know, formal and formal meditation education isn't quite as clear as in other places where it's, you know, literally on or off the cushion. So it's not quite that but it is explaining this development of mindfulness and awareness that you went through. And I think it's really valuable to have these conversations, have this reflection, learn from one another, and then share it with others that are going through their own process on their own journey to be able to reflect on where they're at, and similar challenges and breakthroughs that they've had.
David Sudar 1:12:38
I agree, I've benefited so much along the way from just hearing from other practitioners and teachers and some of what you spoke to, to just the willingness to actually share some of their experience rather than just theory of like, Oh, no, this is what happened. And here's from that, or what led to it, the more I, every time, I've heard people be willing to share that it's always been really meaningful or not meaningful, but just like helpful.
Host 1:13:08
Yeah, right. And even if one's journey or mind is very different from my own, just seeing how that personal journey has taken place in that kind of internal personal way of sharing. It can't but have an effect on me to do that similar reflection on myself, as I'm listening to someone talk about themselves and hearing their story. There's there's this internal process of kind of like, well, what did I do with that? Or where was I with that? Or what what have I figured out there? And so that, and that gives rise to a different type of reflection, as you said, than when you're you're you're reading more about theory or something? Well, great, thank you so much for coming on and sharing. Was there anything else you wanted to comment on about this that we haven't covered yet?
David Sudar 1:13:54
No, I think that that pretty much covers it all.
Host 1:13:57
Okay, well, great, then, thanks for coming on, and best wishes as you continue your practice in this way.
David Sudar 1:14:03
All right. Thanks so much, Joe.
Host 1:14:11
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