Transcript: Episode 32: The Mystery of U Lokanatha
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Antonio Costanzo, which appeared on February 2, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:01
Hey everyone, it's great to have you along for this episode of the Insight Myanmar podcast. Let me take a moment to give you some background on our show. Historically, the origins of the meditation and mindfulness movement that have swept the world can be traced to 19th and 20th century Burma, now officially known as BMR. And still today in the 21st century, the Buddhist teachings of liberation animate to contemporary generation of Dhamma seekers in the small Southeast Asian country. And this podcast series we engage in in depth discussions with a wide range of practitioners, foreigners and local Burmese, lifelong monastics and lay practitioners, including authors, scholars, meditators, teachers, pilgrims and more, to highlight the depth and diversity of Buddhist practice in the golden land, and explore how the Dhamma is being put into practice by those seriously on the path. That is our mission. And we hope that the show that follows gives you a fuller taste of our aim. Let's get into that now.
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Host 01:57
Okay, I'm delighted to have the chance to speak today with Antonio Costanzo in the first of three episodes, where we're going to be exploring the life of the great Italian monk will look anantha for one of the truly amazing 20th century figures to ever done the saffron robe, and become a messenger of the Buddhist teachings. It's equally stunning to me just how little is known about looking at that today, and how few meditators have even heard his name. So let's hope that this episode really starts to change that. This book project that Antonio was a part of was a several year Odyssey undertaken by this small team of Italian meditators and monastics around the world. Actually. Antonio is one of the three collaborators on the project, and has described it to me as an adventure. So today, we're going to get to learn a little bit more about this journey. In this interview, Antonio will be speaking about the project in general terms, giving us a peek behind the scenes at the research process. And we'll also be learning a little bit about the overall narrative arc of looking at this amazing life. In the two subsequent interviews, we'll be talking with Lorenzo Colombo about the detailed biography of this fascinating figure. And then to metta Nanda will join us and he'll discuss looking at as teachings and beliefs. But for this interview, let's get right into it and start learning about who we're looking at the was and why he's important enough for us to devote three episodes to him. So Antonio, it's a pleasure to welcome you to this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast. Thanks for taking the time to be here.
Antonio Costanzo 03:38
Thank you. It's my pleasure.
Host 03:41
Yeah, so first, I'd like to ask a little about your own personal background. You're writing about an Italian monastic who's disseminating the Dhamma What is your own personal experience with meditation and the Buddhist teachings prior to participating in this project?
Antonio 03:57
I started practicing Zen. Many years ago, I practice it too for two years and then joined the Vipassana course when the go Inca tradition in 2015. And the project start in the 2017 or 18. It said longer. There is a long story behind the
Host 04:26
Go ahead.
Antonio 04:28
Yes, talking about this story of the project and just to say we were not just three but many more. The story is, is like that, you have a big part in the in the in the story because my first acquaintance of a lot of another speaker, materialize it in in the end of 2016. I was reading your book cover the golden Am Yama guide for Dharma seekers. And then I came across loads this name I have never heard from him before you just type the site's a Hema quotes him twice at the first. The first time I just go went ahead. And then when I read the about to him speaking about him as a Greek Italian mom that sparked my my interest and curiosity. And I just decided to check for more information in internet. And then I saw that it was a really an amazing person. It was a very, very, very hard to hear he went buy food from South Italy to India in the 20s. And then he was also born adjuster 40 kilometres of Roma, my village, then I did this, he increased my curiosity and I just tried to know something about him. And then I arrived to to you asking for more information. And it was a strange enough that we didn't have so many information. And then it was your idea to collect information. And then, with the help of Roberto monnaie, one of your collaborators, we start sharing material in a dropbox folder. And after some time, other people joined in this folder, and we managed to collect some official documents as a birth certificate. And even in an interview,
Host 06:50
I want to stop you there just for a moment, I want to go back and explore some of the the early stages of your project. Personally speaking, I have to say I'm just so moved to here that our meditators guidebook was this catalyst for another important Domino project launching off the ground. I mean, this was very much our hope, when we started work on the book, that this history and information we were collecting would impact people in different ways. So it's just so nice to hear how that happened. I do want to follow up on another question about this the golden path, the meditators guide books way longer lay, it's a very long book, and it just has rather small references sections to this Italian monk just kind of thrown in there, at least in that first edition. The second edition has a bit more detail. But what I'm curious about from you is what hit you so strongly that reading these very small references, it set you on a path to want to learn more about them.
Antonio 07:44
I remember the second reference, which was a more striking was about his or vegetarian ideas, because I remember you were talking about me meet or not meet in Myanmar, and where we're talking about that many months in Myanmar, enjoy, meet. But there are some months that try to avoid it. And then came your mention about the law Kanata. And you spoke about him as a great Italian monk. It was a these words had these sparkling pores, and then I decided to know something more. Right? And you mentioned that
Host 08:35
he was born just 40 kilometers away from your hometown. So once you found that out, did that give you any sense of kinship or connection with him these being two people separated by time but sharing a nationality growing up, so geographically close, and yet both dedicating your lives to a practice that came from very, very far away? So did you feel any personal or intimate connection with him when
Antonio 09:02
you were in that? Yes, say I felt the such kind of relation. And you know, also the first the translator of polytex was also from South Italy. But I don't really know why it is like this, you know, South Italy has a very long history. At times, we talk about Greek philosophy, but we should just remind us that when we are talking about Greek philosophy, many of these philosophers were indeed Italian society in anachronistic all the way because they were in South Italy, many of them as are many there. Just to cite an example with the Zen on he is famous for the film for his paradox and also acclimatise in CCD. On, it is a something in the country, you know, search for truth.
Host 10:05
You think there's something in this South Italian region, that people growing up here have something in common in terms of being motivated to look for truth or look for some higher spiritual reality is that that's something you find common in the culture throughout history there
Antonio 10:24
at least in ancient times. And we can also go ahead for example, the Giordano Bruno will was born in, in the 16th century, he was banned by the church in the era 16 He was also from a small town in South Italy, near close, very close to Naples, no longer just the two sides there, but a very, very big example. Then there are many, many, many seekers. And then it was a, I mentioned that the the first translator or polytex, he was delorenzo. He was a writer, and geologists and for some reasons, he had the very strong interest in, in politics, he designed the to translate them. And then he benefited from the from the help of noise among the very famous Austrian scholar who translated the polytex dinner in German, he was also very good. In Italian, the first volume were republished by Norman and delorenzo. And I was adjust the thinking when I knew about low Kanata whether they had met sometime, right. And maybe the surprise is that after many months, or maybe years of research, we came across that they did Matt did me. And lo Kanata, was traveling around Italy, he was arrested because he just was searching for food. He were brought to his uncle lane, champion era. And then at a certain point, he went to Naples, came in the university. And we just know of speaking a very in Neapolitan with a very strong American accent. Then he taught the with the delorenzo. And we knew that they had the correspondence after no Kanata. Left Italy, and we knew now know something about his journey to India hospital these two these letters,
Host 13:07
right, right. So taking a step back, we're talking a bit about the project that you're getting on looking at his life. And later, in the next interview with Lorenzo we'll be talking in detail about looking up his biography. But I realized that as listeners are hearing this, it might be strange to hear some details about a project where many meditators have never heard of them before. They don't know the first thing about him. So even though we're not going into great detail about his life now, because that's for the next interview, could you give some kind of brief overview for listeners hearing this and having no idea even where to place this person when he lived, where he lived, what he did? What kind of brief biographical description Can you give, which I know is very challenging because this is someone whose life ranged over many influences of people and travel and places. So it's hard to condense it but that's what I'm asking you to do. So that listeners can have some general idea about who he was.
Antonio 14:11
Yes, he was born in, in South Italy in 1896. And at the age of four or five years, he emigrated with his family to America and, and was brought up in, in Little Italy and he studied the chairman's tree and was from a very strong Catholic family, he was a very attracted by science and so that signs just fall to a with the his belief cathodic beliefs at a certain point over time. He found a translation of the dhammapada in English. And he said, I read the book and I became a Buddhist, it was a very strong impact on him. And then after some years, he decided to go in India first then he was ordained some years later in Myanmar and he was very international figure, if we can say, because, he had a very strong interest in, in his missionary in missionary activity, because he, he had the idea that religion as he saw to the question, religion cannot thrive without missionary activity. And I think this is also because he was a born in a Catholic family and then he had this idea about to be sure any work.
Host 16:14
And yeah, he had plans to want to try to convert the Pope and Mussolini to Buddhism right, for example, yes,
Antonio 16:21
yeah. And then he practices the meditation for some years alone in some in some place in the Himalayas, probably in the Burmese a Himalaya. And after that, he decided to, to spread this, this message. Maybe it is also interesting to to say that he has a new personality webuzo yado. And I think he was a very deeply impressed from weboost Yaddo and took also the vow according to which he would not lie down. And he maintained this vow until he died. You can just image to not lie down even even to sleep. And then as was saying, he had this strong belief in missionary work, went to Singapore in 1947. And some years from then from there to America. He met many people tried to convert many people in America and just went back to to Myanmar, but in Burma at that time, and leave the across Burma and Sri Lanka had many, many activities. It was a very, very famous figure when he was leaving. The was very strange that after he died shortly people began to forgot him. But now we are rediscovering him. We are finding many sources about his life, his teachings. Very, very amazing, amazing story.
Host 18:44
Yeah. And that was something I was curious about, because Luke anantha is one of the most consequential Western monarchs monastics of the mid 20th century. He's traveling extensively throughout Southeast and South Asia into Europe and America, spending many years living in those various countries. He's an influential figure in pre war Western Europe and post war America. So historically, geographically, religiously, even politically, he's a compelling figure at this time. And yet, as you said, He's somewhat been forgotten. So did you know of any academic works that have been published about him before your project or was he just completely lost in time?
Antonio 19:24
We knew about Philip this leap after article will was published it by Rockledge. If I remember well, it was adjust pre or prior to our publication. And after I he published Is it the publisher the another article about low Kanata with an aim to try to understand how he had the impact about Ambedkar will convert the The Truth About this after, after the war, and he was the leader of the Hungarians, and after, after that many hurrians converted the, I think six many millions if I remember, well, Phillip tried to, to shed more light about this episode, I'm not aware about many, many other works about him.
Host 20:33
Right. And that was something I just read your translated version, you've written this biography in Italian, and I've read a simple translated version of it in English. And that was something that I'm somewhat familiar with his life. But the one thing that I wasn't aware of before reading this was, according to at least my understanding of your your work, that will look anantha played a pivotal role in convincing Ambedkar to go ahead with these conversion, which is one of the most important historical points of that era, just that I think it's been called one of the largest mass conversions in history, many, many millions, from this group converted to being a Buddhist. And according to what you found, this was actually look anantha was actually played a critical role in convincing Ambedkar to lead this conversion. Is that true?
Antonio 21:27
Yes, after. After this time, when we found after we published the book, our book, we found the pamphlet, who was a writer, a letter who Kanata wrote to Ambedkar, then we have also written documents about it. And it was a letter in which he said that the Hungarians should free themselves, because in both cases, there were no cast days, and so on. And both This means the religion of the truth. It was very, very good to have this a written reference, but there are it is an episode that it has, has been recorded, as well, because we knew about about it Also, before we read this, this letter,
Host 22:37
right. So I want to get back to the project that you were collaborating on how it developed, because there were all these curious twists and turns of how the collaboration took place. Eventually, you got in touch with an Italian based local, not the group, which happened in this kind of convoluted yet very fortuitous way. Some of the other countries of Iceland, the US, Italy, Burma, even Namibia, and somehow swetland was involved again. So can you explain how this all happened? how everything came together in this next step?
Antonio 23:12
Yes. I remember, our Dropbox group lost interest after some time, we just collected something and that we couldn't define the normal material after one year or or something like that. You wrote to me and Roberto, saying that an Italian lady had written to you because she she had intention to go to Myanmar to take picture and collecting material for an Italian group who was a studying award was doing research about low Kanata. It was a very amazing information. And for some form some reason. At the first, my mind was distracted for from other things. And you also saw subspecies because you will didn't remember about metta Nanda was one of the person who was in the involved in in the project. But after one or two months, I went ahead and wrote to you asking about more information. We just had this name Donatella. And we knew that any Italian group was excellent. And was doing research about local data. Just I just wrote to Donatella and I came across that he had a she had been in Iceland, and I was from Norway. Northern Italy in Trento, just a few hours before I had the toast with a friend who was from the same, the same zone, you know, in northern Italy. And it turned out that she knew him. I had been in Namibia with him. He was a hair guide. It was very big coincidence.
Host 25:27
It's amazing how those connections came together, huh?
Antonio 25:30
She Yes. And after it, she gave me the email address of Beco Maha Vanya, who was the head of a little temple in northern Italy. And he was also in the group researching about local data. And so I discovered that to the group belonged also kusa Ananda, Coco sananda cometa nanda and Lauren solomo was a lay follower. And they had also been in touch with Michael trophy was a nephew of one of the brothers solo Kanata. And then the puzzle just started to increase. And after some time, we had a very big correspondence. And after some time, one year or so we decided to meet in Italy, as you said, I was in Iceland, and I couldn't go to Italy just right away. But after some time, we could meet and we went to les Richie, where it is these a little monastery. And there he is also a very beautiful place. You have a famous supporter, he's a farfalla. It's a Falaise, adjust the name in Italian name for a butterfly. It's very curious visual phenomena, the sunlight goes through some stones and Drow throw a picture of a butterfly overlay on the rock, just the nearby and in this place is the monastery. One thing I this this butterfly is grown just in the summer solstice. And then it means that it is a a sacral meaning and as I as well wasn't saying then we met there in in the tranquil atmosphere of the monastery, then discussed for about two days. And there, I propose to publish the biography with the teachings over lo Kanata in in, in, in Italian, because I am a publisher by the piano. I did Sione and they just agree, though with this idea. And so we just went ahead, and after some time the book was published. And
Host 28:28
so this the decision to publish the book was actually made while standing in this beautiful town and the actual monastery in northern Italy.
Antonio 28:38
Yes. We, obviously we talked about it before, but where the the final decision was taken there.
Host 28:49
Okay, so can you update us with where you stand now with the project? You've written this book in Italian I've seen the translated version of it, is it published? is it available now for for readers?
Antonio 29:02
Yes, it is available for readers and our website and also in to Amazon and so on. And now the project is just continuing because we are translating in Italian local author speech, who which were given in Singapore in 1947. In English, they had they had the name, the lifeboat throat they were conducted under this name, and thanks to Michael Shafi, who found this book in Canada and we just made an OCF from this from this book, And we are aiming to, to do a professional layout of this of this book in English. And in due course, over time we aim also to, to publish this book in, in Italian, it will be given for free through our website that the annotated Sione.
Host 30:35
That's wonderful. And you mentioned that even to this day, you're still finding out information that surprises you about the life of this extraordinary monk after devoting so much of your life to learning about him, what kinds of things have you stumbled upon that continue to amaze you
Antonio 30:53
at the moment as I mentioned before, we found this letter to to Ambedkar then we found also talking about how connection could be very strange in life. When when we were just before the publishing the book, we came across that a non beef quneitra Marina when she was in working in Myanmar met the last part Taka over lo Kanata he is a personal attendant the last person are often done over local Nata bhikkhuni de Medina say to me, he was very very old, very old man he looked like a very old man and had just some hair some relax over low Kanata Oh, and then she took took these relics and gave it to Santa Cheetah Rama monastery, which is a in between Naples and Rome in Italy. Oh, there are still coming up things about him written source because we know about some books that he wrote for example, giggling the globe with the throat when he aimed to to go in western to spread the teaching of Buddha. Then he collected some material wrote some some basic teachings, but we have not find this book yet. Then it could be in some monastery. For example, we found another speech thanks to Pierluigi confalonieri in Sri Lanka. He was a monastery in Shuri Lanka, and in the library just a one day he wrote to me Do you know what i found and sent to me a scanning of of this book, it was one of the local author speech in in Singapore, but it was organized in a different way. You know, it was just a pamphlet with this with these speech, then we we are confident that there are that there is a much material we will discover.
Host 33:58
Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. Yes, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's really a spectacular person deserving of this study, when you look at the breadth of what his life has covered. And this is what we'll get into in the next interview will really go into his biography in detail. But when you just take in the overall narrative arc of the 20th century life, this person live that, you know, committed to vegetarianism. He's practicing meditation at a time when very few people are engaged in any kind of meditation practice, let alone foreigners. He's rubbing shoulders with Ambedkar and general OnSong actually talks about how he he was tempted to become a monk based on the example of low Kanata and not pursue the nationalist struggle soon say at a web who said the president of Sri Lanka he's after world war two he shows up in Hollywood and 1950s America, he's not just engaged in meditation practice, but he actually is developing some kind of supernatural powers and some very strong mental states. He has enormous courage in terms of what, where he's going in his life, the, you know, he ends up in a POW camp at one point and he goes on long hunger strikes at various points, he takes long walks in dangerous places. So there's really so many boxes that his life in his teachings touch upon. So it's really exciting to be able to delve more into this character and learn more about what he was teaching and practicing far ahead of his time for people like us that came after. I'm wondering also, for you, personally, at this point, how have you benefited in your own practice from making a study of looking at this life? has it affected your own individual practice or your understanding of the spread of Dhamma in the world? And if so, in what ways has it done that,
Antonio 36:11
for me, locata is a very important for his courage for his faith, this is the the main reason for which I, I had the very strong interest in him. He when he tried to go to Italy, and for the conversion of a Mussolini, he just went ahead with the 100, the lionhearted monks, and they wanted to just to, to go by your own foot, all the way to Italy. You know, he had a very, very stronger health may probably because of his, uh, his meditation practice, he had no fear, you know, these are the things which has struck my imagination, know, his determination. He just wanted something go. And then it tried to do it, you know, it could sound a little bit awkward, but if it was done, always we met. It is not just as a cup race, you know?
Host 37:41
So meta was a big part of his courageous actions. Yes.
Antonio 37:45
You know, if, if you think about his spreading of vegetarian ideas, the real thing is one the Wonder lies in this is, he's a meta, you know, very strong. He said, If you just think about how many, how many animals we, we eat in our life, he said, 200,000 if you don't eat meat, you can spare so many lives. You know, it is a very strong matter in this
Host 38:39
right, yeah. And you you tell that incredibly powerful story in the beginning of your book about a pigeon flying into his hands when he's very young, you know, something like seven, eight years old, and his mother taking the pigeon and drowning it and then making gravy for the family. And look anantha been or is this time he's salvadori I guess it sounds like he ordains and he is so upset with what his parents have done that he goes on a hunger strike and they think he's the kind of humor him they think he's just being a child and had attachment to an animal and stubborn whatnot. But eventually, he going so many days without food as a very young child his health starts to really suffer and he refuses to eat anything until his mother promises him that in no circumstances and no cases well they ever kill I guess a pigeon or a pet or or or kill him eat kill an animal in front of him again, and that's kind of an early for shadowing of his life,
Antonio 39:49
my life for the life of a Biggio you know it's very simple.
Host 39:54
What did that story say to you? How did it speak to you that that story?
Antonio 39:59
I will say We'll start when I read this story, it's very simple is the simplest stuff. However, seven, eight years child doing something like this, it is not normal. Pearson? Right. It is some, some faith, you know, it's difficult to, to explain in other In other words, he says it is a very outstanding proof that I was about this in my former life. I don't know. But anyway, it is a very strikingly
Host 40:44
right into that sense. You mentioned right away when I asked the question a few minutes ago, how struck you were by looking up as courage, how that was the thing that stood out to you has that inspired or influenced in the way you look at your own practice and study in his life,
Antonio 41:02
it is a you know, when you meditate, and you when you find in fields in normal life, or also during formal meditation, some kind of fear, then you can just remind to yourself about history or about, about the impermanence. And but you know, if you don't have a no example, to look and then if there are just words, it's not more than words, but when you have an outstanding figure, person who just went on foot from South Italy to India, was captured in Turkey by by pirates, you know, and he said he wrote to delorenzo I had no no nothing other than meta to give them this is my life. And, you know, there's nothing more you can take from me, it when you have such examples to look at, then I think you you feel inspired. There are other things who people could find the inspiration. As a For example, He was a signer, scientists scientific man, and he was very important also for, for connecting science to both this now we hear many people talking about it, but we should not forget then Logan Otto was one of the first people monks who did it and it is also important that he was a he had a degree in chemistry, and then he joined to monkhood. Then he knew about he was a he was speaking, others look at his finger also for this kind of other teachings. But for my personal point of view, his courage is his most important because now, after so many years, we have many people talking about, about science. And both these you know, and may now we know also more knowledge about the Buddhism that we had at that time. But one thing that maybe it is also worth to mention in relation to this is I found or in Goenka discourses, some reference, especially when he talks about signs, there are some examples that he speaks about, that are very, very close in speech to look at us discourses. I think that going knew something about him. He never taught him. But when we know that he was very low Kanata was very famous during his life. We have also sources attesting that he he was close to U Ba Khin in at that time, but we couldn't define the Other sources to confirm at this this point, the suspect is that going had much to take from local data. Because at that time, we're not there were not so many people speaking about both this my in from a scientific point of view.
Host 45:25
That's very interesting. And you know, now that you say that I came across a reference, and I'm not going to be able to remember the source because this was years ago, it just stands out in my memory, that when I'm not sure if you have come across this, we can talk offline later. And I can see where I can find track this source down in the early days of say, I do began before he set up the international meditation center. He was teaching in the accountant general's office, before he ever taught meditation there. He was, in the early days, he just had a Buddhist shrine, and he was giving precepts and sometimes he would give Dhamma talks or someone else would step in to give a Dhamma talk. And I did come across a reference the local nanto was one of the guests who came to the accountant general's office to give a Dhamma lecture to the assembled office workers one day,
Antonio 46:16
we have also another testimonials from Virginia King, if I remember well, here her name, he or she was a brought up in in Burma at that time. And lo Kanata met her family very, very often. She was the if I remember was the only one who was not about this that at that time, she said in an interview with Laura and so she talked to that local practice at the Vipassana. What we don't know how, you know, from which school you know, but it is a another night. Another good point.
Host 47:12
Yeah, it's it's like this detective trail, right? Yeah, you keep having pieces and they keep leading you. And I think listeners hearing this now will start to get a sense of being in the process of this exciting story. Because what you're presenting is this figure that is ahead of his time in almost every mark. I mean, he's he's a foreigner Westerner who was interested in Theravada, Buddhism and meditation long before it would develop into the current wave that it's in which have hit you and I Antonio, where we've we've been a part of a generation that in our respective countries where these teachings have come and they've been important to us, and we've practiced them. But looking at though, was ahead of any of that wave where it was commonplace to look at, you know, Buddhist teachings or Buddhism, let alone meditation, let alone ordained as a monk, let alone going to those countries given how difficult travel and wartime and everything was, and he foreshadowed Oh, and then you mentioned the science part of it. So this whole Buddhist modernism, of connecting Buddhist teachings with scientific development, you mentioned that he was very much a forerunner, and in the early stages of presenting some of those ideas, and now you're mentioning a link with McCann and IMC and going off course, there's already a link with with engine Ben now engine Ben is something of a, of a pilgrimage place for many Western for passionate meditators today, who wants to come and pay respects to this very special place where we say it I lived, but he was there. He was one of the few foreigners just a handful, who was actually in engine been during his lifetime. And so, in many cases, even as we trace this detective tell, and of course, this, this possible link you brought up of what meditation he was practicing how he was influencing who became how he was influencing Glinka. That's a big mystery that will be very exciting to unravel. But in many of these ways, he was very much ahead of his time for what would come a half century later, and the movement that you and I have gotten caught up in.
Antonio 49:28
Yes, it's true. And also we should not forget that they, he had this big fate, also this big faith in both this but he he was brought up in a cattolica environment. He never forgot about, about Jesus and he said I ever thrown below before Jesus and Francesco de Cz, and he often very often quoted words From the Bible, and through close parallels to from to Francesco de Cz, because he was maybe the one monk in the Catholic tradition who had a very loud, very much animals. There are no other examples is a day in the Catholic tradition about him. And as I was saying, he tried to he was not trying to fight, you know, against the Catholicism. And as you mentioned, he was ahead of time. And after some time, many years, many years after he died, I heard about the pope who went in Myanmar. And as a local, not a deed, just quoted something from the Bible and verse from dhammapada. And as you say, maybe it is a kind of destiny. He wanted to convert the pope when he was leaving. Now it It sounds very awkward. But after so many years, what do you expect that the pope would have gone to Myanmar? And he would have quoted the verse from dhammapada?
Host 51:41
That's incredible. Yeah, that's incredible. What a What a life.
51:44
Yeah,
Host 51:46
so many of our listeners hearing this there meditators around the world, who might not have much background at all concerning the state of mid 20th, century Burma, or even how these Buddhist ideas began to reach the West. So just hearing what we've discussed now, what do you think the modern meditator can learn? How can they personally benefit from gaining a deeper understanding into the mission and the teachings in the life of Google?
Antonio 52:13
I think they can benefit that just trying to, to think about how hard is to be born as a human how hard it is to hear about the Dhamma at local notice time, there were no computers, very difficult to it was very difficult to, to travel to cover so many kilometres in just a few hours as we did today. Now, it is a very simple you just go in your computer and find some words. I think it i'm not saying that this is devaluing The, the value of the of the Buddhists, Ward's of the Buddha's teachings, but you can just image how strong he is the fate of a person who has a not the background as we have, as we have today, and hears about the Buddhists war, and just decides to become a monk to go to leave to leave his his kountry you can imagine how much courage you have to for doing this for set apart your you know, your sharp thinks you're you're ahead just go ahead, I want to know much about it. I think of people now should ponder about this kind of things, we have the Buddhist teachings available in internet sometimes we cannot value how important they are hmm and then we just have them you know as a when you as a local data say when you give appear to the peaks, you know, and then we should remember that we we have, we have gems we have we have peers, we should ponder about the value of this the value of of the Dhamma that it will not be available all the time in future I think did these are things that we should think about? What about Whoa, how, how happened? You? We have, but we have a very big occasion.
Host 55:18
Beautiful. I'm hearing that and I'm thinking, here is an example of ullo konata. In young age getting a getting a book of the Buddhist teachings, I think it was a max Mueller translation that that he received,
Antonio 55:32
is that correct? I don't know it could be probably was much smoother translation.
Host 55:39
Right. So here's this example of him getting in here in Little Italy, in New York City, in 1920s, getting this reference of the Buddhist teachings and just being driven to find out where these came from, you never met a Buddhist before, he has no ability to find any other way to learn this practice or what the Buddha taught. So he just sets out on his own to go to the country where you can learn and pursues that steadfastly confronting all these dangers and difficulties and a family of very religious Catholics, including priests that are in the family that that don't want to see him moving to another religion. And you contrast this with people today, where we have this plethora of opportunity in terms of Buddhist teachings and practice and teachers and knowledge and everything around us just at our fingertips. And you you look at how much effort locata had to make at this time, and it's really something profound.
Antonio 56:43
Yes, this is the you got the point.
Host 56:49
And it's also interesting just to look at the, the sequence of how these influences keep coming. So, you know, you look at max Mueller, who was a generation before looking into and just and, and was able to carry the the Buddhist teachings into the West was one of the first Westerners who were able to transmit these teachings across Europe and America, and they peppered into many different artists and authors and practitioners and local anantha just picked up a strain of this just one little moment that encouraged him and set his whole life on a path. And then of course, look anantha the influence that he had on so many people below him big names like Hong Kong, or, you know, Su moon or president of Sri Lanka, Ambedkar, when we say it, as we've talked about, possibly Glencoe newbiggin, as well, and to us today, and then if you even look at this little project, you know, me doing the meditators guidebook and coming across some references, I peppered in a little bit of anecdotes here and there that then you picked up and your team brought to a whole other level of scholarship. And now you think about the book that you're doing, and even this talk that we're having, what seeds are going to be planted by the ideas that we're discussing, and how these cause and effects and influences of what we're doing now, who is going to be listening, or reading or contemplating something that we're now putting out there that's, you know, 2050 100 years from now is going to have another effect that we can't even possibly predict.
Antonio 58:30
Yes, it is. It is not possible to to know in advance.
Host 58:37
So, last question is do you still have any unanswered questions? I'm sure you have a lot of unanswered questions about you're looking at this life. If I can grant you a magical wish to have one question asked in its entirety, what would be the thing that you you're dying to know that you would just love to know conclusively about some aspect of his life?
Antonio 58:56
The relationship with the website although and the practice he did and specially when he was alone in in in him, Burmese Himalaya I think this is the this could be very, some very important to know what it is also saw personnel.
Host 59:33
Great. Well, good luck and finding that answer.
Antonio 59:37
I think we will. We will just find a partial answer. But not all. Questions.
Host 59:48
Yeah. I wish I really had that magical power to give you the answer.
59:52
Thank you.
Host 59:55
Yeah, well, thanks so much for taking the time to share this really interest. To keep exploring local authors life and writing and in future interviews with your team, and all the best with the project as it goes forward, it was there anything else you wanted to add about his life of the project that we haven't covered on today?
Antonio 1:00:16
Thank you too. At the moment, we are just just waiting, just trying to publish more. And maybe we will find more in in future could after some years could maybe talk again.
Host 1:00:38
We Chelsea I write I look forward to that. In any case, best of luck with everything. And thanks so much for taking the time to share what you've done so far.
Antonio 1:00:48
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Host 1:00:59
I'd like to take a moment to describe a bit of background about why our team does the work that we do here. The origins of the meditation movement that have swept the world can in large part be traced back to 19th and 20th century Burma. And still today in the 21st century, the Buddhist teachings of liberation continue to animate a contemporary generation of Dhamma seekers in this small Southeast Asian country. A growing interest in mindfulness around the world combined with the recent opening of the country, has led to more interest than ever before about meditation practices. With that has come an interest about its origins, in other words, Buddhist life in the golden land. However, while there is a wealth of Dhamma treasure to be discovered, their access to even basic information continues to be a challenge, given the country's recent history. 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