Transcript: Episode 34: Finding Inner Stability in Troubling Times
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Daw Viranani, which appeared on February 6, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:01
All right, I'm speaking to Davina nanny. She's an American nun in Jamyang monastery in Yangon. She's there now it's in the northern part of the city and checking in about how she's been doing and what's going on. So Davina nanny, thanks for joining us. And we are so grateful and appreciative to be able to hear your voice now. Do I thank you very much for the kind invite. I'm very, very happy to be with you today. And very happy to be able to share outside what what I'm feeling and what's going on here. Yeah, yeah, as are we so the first question is just how are you? I'm fine. And we're all fine. In the monastery, we were protected by the Dhamma. And by the fact that we just do our Dharma business and our demo work. And all as well here you wouldn't know actually from the surface that anything has happened. The Coronavirus has actually had a much more profound effect on our we really on our day to day life. Yeah. So before we get into more recent events, maybe you can just give a brief overview of how the coronavirus pandemic has impacted your life as a nun there and what you know of other nunneries and monasteries nearby. Yes, thank you. It's it's been a profound shift. Since early April last year, we have mostly been locked into the monastery with the exception of about a month and a half when we had Yogi's coming from local Yogi's coming. And the monks were going over alms round. But most of that time, we've just been staying here the monks are not going on their daily alms rounds in the morning. We do have some donors coming in, but not so many. And we have no no Yogi. So this is a meditation center and we're shut basically. We can go out if we need to, but really working, we're keeping very, very close to home. The nunneries in our neighborhood, of which there are very many actually there are lots of nunneries They are also not going on their bi weekly alms rounds. They they're depending on local donors for their sustenance. And it's a really profound shift. Yeah, I can imagine. And do you feel comfortable? Talking about the last few days how things have shifted again? Yes, and no, I mean, there's not a lot to say. Because really, here you can't really tell anything's changed. You know, from from superficial outside appearances. our day to day life has not changed in the least. So there's not much to say about what our outer lives have done. In the last, you know, five days or so, our inner lives that's another story, but we can talk about that later. So on this podcast, we've talked to a number of practitioners, Burmese practitioners, foreigners living in Myanmar, you're definitely very high up there on the list. Want to get your spiritual biography and your background in Myanmar. This is obviously not the talk we're having now. But you're not someone who just happened to land in Myanmar in the last several months or a year. This is a country that has been inexplicably intertwined with your life. So I'm wondering, in absence of a two hour interview, where we get to explore that our leisure if you can give us a two minute or five minute, just background before we go into more information about what role this country has played in your life, what time you have spent here, what your relationship to the country and the people are? sure the short backstory is it in a previous life in this life, I was a conservation biologist.
Daw Viranani 04:37
And
Host 04:41
there were some profound changes that happened. And I started doing a lot of intensive practice mostly in the ocean chart tradition. And then got the chance to sit with mahasi or with open data and was so taken by the mahasi practice. So at that point, I came here to bring To practice and take a temporary ordination. I take into temporary ordinations before but this one was different. And at the end of my retreat, I decided to keep keep the robes and that was in 2005 2006, the winter of 2005 and 2006. Since then, mostly I've been coming and going from Chen Yang Yang, the cyto here cyto indika. I really like so much because he, he practices and teaches a lot of metta Bhavana, along with Vipassana Bhavana. And that's really a profound shift in terms of how the practice unfolds with and the fact that that this is within the mahasi tradition, it just, it's a perfect fit for me. So since 2007, I've been staying here sometimes for very long periods, sometimes for six months at a time. And since 2015, we've been teaching and sharing metta with foreign Yogi's every January and February. So we have a foreign metta retreat for Yogi's metta retreat for a month every January and February. Of course, that's not happening right now. But that would normally be happening even as we speak. And then the other thing that we do that I've been very involved with since Cyclone Nargis in 2008, is to support local nunneries. And people really in need of support with with Donna that we bring in from outside. And we call ourselves metta in action. So each year, we've been offering a substantial amount to nunneries, monastic schools, clinics, education, water projects, solar electricity, many things of that sort. Right. Thank you. Can you put into any words, what Myanmar as a country as a culture as a people, what it's meant to you personally, all the time that you've spent here and how it's impacted you? How, how have you been touched by this country? That's a wonderful question. And a few words, it's very difficult, because it's so deep. This country is this a huge paradox of dark and light. And there's so much beauty in the people in the culture. And of course, in the teaching of the Dumbo, which is Myanmar has been the source of the Vipassana teachings and meta teachings that have gone out to the world through the Maha see lineage. And so there's a deep, deep appreciation of the culture and the people in a deep sense of, of gratitude for what I've personally received in terms of my own practice and support for my practice, as well, as you know, the world has received this amazing gift. So I can't wrap words around that. It's just a deep and profound debt of gratitude for what, what has come out of this beautiful place. Right? Yeah, me too. As I'm talking to you, I feel like I'm something of a stand in for all of the meditators. Excuse me. I knew I was gonna break I didn't know how early it was gonna be. I don't know how many times it's gonna be either. I feel like I'm something of a stand in for all of the meditators that are listening to this around the world. grateful to have a chance to talk to you and to hear someone whose lives have been touched as ours have that is in the place right now and able to speak to us about what's happening and how you're feeling and and how your practice is supporting you. Most importantly, you know, I I I don't know how much people listening have had similar experiences as me this past week. I don't know when exactly this will go out and it will go out sometime after we talk but you know, I haven't been sleeping or eating much and I've gone through a range of emotions someone another meditator said he was going through the cycles of grief i've i've been upset. Obviously, I've been very, very sad I've been so you can see now near breaking into tears or breaking tears at the slightest thing. I guess where this is coming to a question is as a meditative practitioner Who has this debt of gratitude to the golden land? Who spiritual practice and life transformation have been formed and shaped by the imperfect? You know, as you say, paradoxical part of this culture, but still gratitude nonetheless. As a meditator practitioner, what do I do? Now? You know, these are questions that are going through a lot of our minds, what, what, what is my role as a meditator at this moment? And there's no exact answer to that. It's a really difficult question that brings up a lot of other elements and backgrounds. But it's a it's a question I want to ask to you to speak to the meditators and even the non meditators listening in for wanting to know what it is they can do, what? What words would you have for that? I can only share what I've been doing. And it seems to work for which I'm very grateful that the Dhamma is an amazing umbrella of safety. First, remember to breathe, feel the body, feel the body being Okay, in this moment, you know, because we're so true, especially when we're so triggered, there can be a global sense of danger that actually isn't necessarily true in the moment. So I remember to breathe and to remember to breathe, and deep breaths. I really feel feel the body and realign to the present moment. wherever you are. And then to understand, and this can take a form of a quick reflection that samsara is not supposed to work. Yeah. It just it isn't that way. And so when it behaves this way, as it is, it's just being normal. And this the same with Coronavirus. I mean, we live all of us on the edge of extinction. Because we arise and pass away just like every moment does, and that is uncontrollable, and unknowable when that happens, what will happen next. And knowing this paradox of dark and light is so important because the first noble truth is the noble truth of dukkha. Took meaning unsatisfactory, uncontrollable, unpredictable, like a cancer, like a plague, like an affliction. If you go into the texts, they're 40 different allegories for Duka and they're all very like that very in your face. Very intense. This is Dhaka. And so we're living in an intense took a time. How not to drown in the reaction to that is the important thing. Really, really let it get in this is the first noble truth. This is the doorway to freedom and the very place of practice. What are we feeling right now? What how are we responding to what comes in. And so to breathe into that and to feel it and to feel it in the way that allows us not to drown in it. So to really be present for physical sensation. And to understand like, Oh, this is anger, this is despair. This is depression. This is powerlessness. This is feeling hopeless. This is whatever it is we're feeling. This is fear. And if it gets too intense, to really back off and inclined to what is present in your day to day existence that is pleasant, and it's so easy to drown in the unpleasant and the difficult. We tend to have an obsessive compulsive disorder about just paying attention to that. And it comes from our evolutionary heritage. But they're also the sky is still blue, the leaves are still green, nature's outside the birds are singing, the sun's coming up and going down. There's sunsets and sunrises, flowers are blooming You know, there are pleasant things happening even now and to notice this as well as and hold it in the same in this the same moment as everything else. really helps really helps to, to keep from drowning. And then of course, there is always an extremely important there is always meant to Baba, cultivating loving kindness. beginning where it's easy, don't go to where it might be difficult. So begin with yourself and begin with yourself in everything you're feeling and really hold it in a tender, tender container. And then expanding outwards to include the whole world, including this country, including the afflicted people, including the generals, everybody. And so to radiate loving kindness, for for this country, can be held in May all beings be well happy and peaceful, you don't even have to go too close to the country because it might trigger something. So may I be well happy and peaceful, May all beings be well happy and peaceful, that will help pre incline and balance the mind and the energy of that has an effect. So all of these things together, create a sense of balance that holds the pain and then the immense difficulty, but also includes it, you know, and and allows us a place to stand in that that is less precarious, and less difficult. Thank you. Those are good words for all of us right now. may ask him this past week how your own practice has been. I chuckled because I am doing I think I'm wearing a groove in my corridor outside my room for work. I've been doing a lot of walking meditation. Because when I'm when things are difficult, and there's a lot of energy flying around, I tend to do better walking meditation than sitting meditation. So I've been doing a lot of walking. And it's all been metta practice. Mostly, I mean, of course some Vipassana some some sense of what I'm feeling but well, happy, peaceful, well, happy, peaceful, well, happy, peaceful over and over again. Yeah, yeah. And I actually think I'm having an easier time of it than then people outside who love this country, because the sense of hopelessness and despair, that's here is one thing, but the sense of being so far away, and not knowing what's happening, and not being able to, to, to connect, or to help or do anything, is much adds a level of difficulty. That, that I don't feel because I'm here. And so, so yeah, that it's really hard to be far away. And that's where the mentor really comes in Joe, because it's so powerful and so intangible. space and time don't exist. When we radiate metta, it just goes out. And even to say it goes out is is a construct. It just it's there it is. And it's such a powerful act, that seems in the moment that just intangible and no so what good is this, but we can't tell where the ripples go of when we cultivate mental. So to keep cultivating that, so for this for us, for everyone here for everyone in the world, because this country is not the only place where they're suffering right now in this moment, you know, so it's everywhere, it's everywhere. And for those meditators who are in fact drowning, with those emotions, drowning with helplessness with being far away with not knowing what to do, or respond, I my own emotion of choice. I've been drowning in sorrow I've, I've, as I mentioned, I've just been on the verge of tears. There's pictures, images, videos that I've seen this past week that every time I see him, I get triggered. I'm not that kind of person. I'm not the kind of person who cries easily I don't. Can't remember the last time any movie made me tear up and somehow this has just had my number and I have I have been just a moment away at any time of, of that sorrow coming. For others it might be anger, some people might be absolutely fatigued beyond belief. There, there could be other other meditators could be responding with different kinds of clouds and storms and, and, and sinking and other other things. But whatever it is they're one is sinking into. The question is, when I'm so overwhelmed with this, how can I think of them moving on to segment our practice, incite the passion, or whatever else it is, when we're in that state, and when the news and information we're getting is, is propelling us further into that state or reinvigorating that state? What, what is it that we can do to acknowledge where we are, and yet still find a way to move to the benefits of practice?
Daw Viranani 21:07
Really good question. First is to feel what you feel. And to understand that what you're feeling may be about what's happening now. But it may not be completely about what's happening now. Who knows. But to drop into that sorrow, and to really honor it by feeling it, knowing it as it is, and not not suppressing it in any way. So to allow tears to come, that's okay. And just breathe into that. And to be really careful at the same time of not reinforcing it by cultivating it. Grief is a strange emotion, because when it begins to abate, we begin to panic, a little bit of panics too strong a word, but we bring it back, the thoughts arise of what we grieve, to keep the grief going. Because in the background, there can be this sense of, well, if, if I'm not grieving, I don't really love this. We do, we love this. And that's okay, the grief will come and go allow it to come, but also allow it to go. And it will come and go a million times a day. So to really surf those waves, in terms of feeling them. And what, uh, one thing I think is, makes it easier for me is I'm not so connected, to images, to video, to, to, to whatever is coming out in terms of media coverage, Be really careful to modulate what you let in from that realm. Because that can be reinforcing the grief. We want to know every possible thing we can, but we can't control this by by by knowing about it. So modulate the amount of time you spend exposing your mind and heart to that because it's it's red hot, it's very, very difficult to let it So after you've been exposed to that, take some time away. To walk to sit to do whatever practice you can do to feel what you're feeling. Be careful not to spend hours of time, you know, looking for every every video clip or every scrap of news. Because you can be re traumatizing yourself over and over and over and over again by doing that. And it doesn't change the situation and it doesn't help you help you kind of hold it either. So be careful about how much you let in and then process what you let in after you've let it in. So that it doesn't build up and when I say process it's really just practice. Be with it feel it? No, it is it is. However you can be with that is you know is an important thing. So whether you sit on your cushion or go for a walk or do walking meditation, drop into the body with this grief. And you can even just say to yourself feeling overwhelmed feels like this. And breathing into that knowing it is it is with a lot of kindness and a lot of awareness. Yeah Sati and metta are your friends right now? Yeah, and it's it's It's a huge challenge. But if you take these big feelings in very small bites, it's more digestible.
Host 25:15
Yeah, somehow in formal practice, I'm able to, after so many years of dedicating myself to the value of this, I'm able to drop into that in some kind of way and be with those feelings. But you know, it's funny, you mentioned are going for a walk today, I went for a walk in snow mountains about as far away as I could be from, from VMR. And, you know, blue skies, cold weather, wind, everything, and it felt great. And I also felt a little guilty, you know, also felt,
25:47
oh,
Host 25:49
it's been a weird thing, because I am walking around this week in a state of gloom, and I'm in a country that's completely unaffected by this. So I'm like going into, you know, supermarkets and doing whatever business there is, and everyone's completely normal. And I feel like I'm, I'm just living in a parallel world of why, why can't you see all the things I'm seeing and, and feel this, usually, people inside, you're filling that together? And, and then going, going to take a walk was like, well, this is really great being in nature, but it was, it was also a feeling of, of guilt that, you know, because these things I've been holding this week, and it's been, it's been so new in the sense that I it's, it's such a heavy load to figure out how to process and how to work with them. So getting away for a day after being much more involved in a tune just kind of felt, I guess, a bit privileged. Yeah. Oh, we are. And that's, you know, that truth is not something to feel guilty about that. Remembering the beautiful, Polly it's just one phrase, camassia CA, all beings are owners of their actions. And understanding that things unfold because of karma, because of causes and conditions and how complex all of that is, and how unknowable it all is. So who knows what tomorrow will bring. But we are all subject to come up with causes and conditions. So any gloom we may feel about the way the world is? It doesn't help the situation. So be to really be careful about being attached to our response to that. Because we're not betraying a country we love and people we love, by feeling gloomy on their account. Or by by not feeling gloomy on their account. The gloom doesn't, the gloom is not the same as the meta as the care as what we we feel for them that's wholesome. It's a standard and so not confuse the gloom with wholesome mind states. It's a sign of attachment to, to the way we want things to be. And, of course, in this situation, the way everybody wants things to be everybody Well, you know, anyway, and so honoring that is important, but not getting caught in our grief. The guilt you feel is so interesting, because that that's a place to practice. That very place is the place to pay attention. Because that is that is made up that's something that is being created, is causing you suffering. And so to really notice that, oh, feeling guilty, and understanding, at least intellectually, that that's not of any benefit to anyone, not to you, not to anyone here, and it doesn't deny. You know, if you're not feeling guilty, if you allow the grief to pass, if you enjoy the snowy mountains, it doesn't mean you don't love this place. The two can coexist, right? And that's so free. Because then we can let grief go, it's okay that it goes. We still love what we love. And we still work as best as we can for the welfare and benefit all beings. So allow things to come and go and let them because that's dumb. That's the way things are And we can work best for others from a state of balance and ease and safety. So you're in a safe place right now. Well, relatively, you know, there are dangerous there too, but relatively safe. And so a lot can be done from that safe place of practice. And, you know, meta indeed meta in speech meta in thought. So, using that platform of safety, for the welfare and benefit of all beings, and then allowing whatever feelings to come and then allowing them to go, well, we'll give you a really strong balanced place from which to do your work. Right. And, and listening to your talk, I'm realizing that there could be listeners that are tuning in here that this is perhaps the first Buddhist discourse or background of Buddhist meditation or thought that they've tapped into we're talking a bit now to a meditator crowd that might have a practice. And this is tapping into what they're already doing, but to speak to everyone for a moment. For those who have never had a practice before, who have never tried to practice but are sympathetic towards the values and ideals you're putting out there. But don't exactly know how to put them into some kind of reality or in their life without having the work before they don't have a bedrock of practice to fall back on. What What might you say to them, just hearing these ideas and wanting to put some of them into practice and even a light way? Is that possible for someone that has never meditated before. It's hard to put myself back in a place of remembering how that feels. Because it's been a very long time.
32:03
But
Daw Viranani 32:05
to try, even for a moment, to rest back in what is to allow things to come and go and feel that, know it for yourself, can be incredibly freeing. And to understand, to just understand, for yourself, this impermanence of suffering, and because we take it to be so big, but to just see for yourself in a moment, what happens when you pay attention to pain, mental or physical? What happens when you don't feed it? You know, when you drop into presence, when you drop into being with something pleasant? Does the pain stay? Or does it go take it as a scientific experiment of one, you know, look to see for yourself. If you want to be free from pain, want to be free from sorrow, grief, as the Buddha said, pain, lamentation, grief and despair. Start in a moment, but paying attention and see how that feels. Start in a moment, from really being present with the totality of what you're experiencing right now. Both inner and outer. No, look, look at the sky and notice seeing the blue sky, how does that feel? Even if you're feeling terrible? Notice how that changes your experience. If it changes your experience, look for yourself, I'm not going to tell you how. But to just really be present in a moment. And in another moment, and in another moment, moment to moment to moment, drop out of thinking into feeling and knowing and knowing being very different from any intellectual knowing but dropping into a visceral knowing of this very life and this very experience, seeing what is it does, and how do we create suffering out of that, seeing that for yourself? This is a place of profound freedom, that only can be seen and done for oneself. I can say things but but this is something you have to try for yourself and see. And to encourage people there are so many opportunities for support in this. Now that didn't exist when I started to practice. I mean, you can go to apps that you know, teach you how to meditate. There was another 34 years ago so to really take advantage of any opportunities you can find to support Weren't you in being present? Because the world's a difficult place, there's no, absolutely no doubt about it. And it's only going to get more difficult. It's not going to get better in a moment. You know, things go up and down, and we can improve our conditions around us. But the bottom line is the world is messy and complicated. So finding an inner place of safety is up to each of us. So really, to encourage every single person to rest back in the present moment, and to hold it with really tender kindness, the tender kindness of knowing and really, really being kind to yourself. And touching each moment with kindness, that kind of weirdness that will allow everything to be here, and then see what happens. See for yourself, what happens.
Host 36:00
Moving to another topic, in past several years, there's been discussion of engaged Buddhism. This has certainly been something quite important and valuable in looking at the past year in America, with some of the situations that we face in our culture, where we ask to what extent should one's Dhamma practice and one's spirituality and Buddhist meditation be connected to the social issues of the outside world. This is something that in our country, a lot of different meditation centers and monasteries and traditions have been grappling in their own way with how they're handling bias and racism and prejudice and our own social justice issues. Right now, in Myanmar, there is a different set of questions as far as what extent does engaged Buddhism go? What is the proper involvement between one's meditation and spiritual practice with social justice problems in the world? So what would you have to respond to that now? Especially at this moment, this current turbulent moment in Myanmar history, what is the proper relationship between Dhamma practice for you? What is the proper relationship between mett and vipassana, and any kind of engagement or concern for social justice movements?
37:33
I'm a little schizophrenic in answering this question, because I'm American, but I live here [in Myanmar]. So what I can say, in terms of my impulses, my conditioned impulses about what I would be doing, and what I have wanted to do, over this last year, had I'd been in the States, I would have been out marching in the streets, quite literally. But the situation here is different. And the proper response is quite different. And the way it's held is quite different. In terms of context, what I certainly feel very free to say is we make such an artificial division between our formal practice and our daily life practice. But really, what's the difference? There's only our six sense doors, happening at different speeds and different different stuff coming in. So there's seeing hearing, smelling, touching, tasting, thinking, whether we're sitting on our cushion, or walking down the street or responding to whatever we see or hear. So there are only ever these moments of sense contact coming in. Whether we're on a cushion, doing formal practice, or doing formal walking practice, or engaged in the world. So how it's held here is implicit. There is a clear assumption that if your practice has borne fruit, it will manifest in actions of speech and actions of body. So nobody does anything explicit or separate. There isn't like, 'okay, now we're going to do a social justice thing as Dhamma practitioners' because as Dhamma practitioners, that comes out with working on behalf of others. That's just a natural response is the practice. So, there is a trust that with deeper practice, action will happen. Of course, in the context of being here, there are limits to that. There are limits to what we can do that is useful and safe.
Host 40:30
Both are valuable action on behalf of others really is a risk, no matter what. And so to find the courage to do whatever we can do, balancing that sense of, well, this will be useful. It might put me in danger, but this will be useful. Versus well. You know, if I did this, it wouldn't do any, any good for the big bigger situation. So there's no point so to know, what is useful and what isn't, before you step over the line, and act or speak. And right now, there's a ton of caution. Because we don't know what will unfold. And I certainly don't want to talk about politics here because it's it's not my place, and in dangerous Mead, and dangerous everybody in the monastery, and in my wider community, but there is a sense here of people waiting to see. And a really deep understanding that the more you practice, the more equanimity you have, the more equanimity you have, the more clear your action is, just naturally, and the more effective your action is, naturally. So there's a deep trust of the practice to play out as skillful speech skillful action in the world. So there isn't that explicit movement towards social justice on the part of Dharma practitioners that I know anyway, I mean, I'm not talking for the whole country, of course, I have a limited limited connection, but to to, to the people, all the people that I'm tightly connected with there, nobody talks about that there is just this natural knowing of, if you have done my you will act skillfully. And that will make a difference in the world. So I need to probably need to edit out a lot of what I just said, because it's useless words, but that that that basic piece is the most important that I just spoke to. Freedom of heart and mind, always translate as pusilla deed and pusilla action and cusworth speech, wholesome speech and action in the world. And with the discernment to know what is wholesome, and what is unwholesome, what is useful, and what is not useful. And that's the crux of all action. To to understand, that wholesome versus unwholesome, what we feed and what we starve, whether it's useful or not, and whether we have met it, whether metta is what is propelling our speech and action out, it gives us the space to do that. And so without the need to do anything explicit, that's the way it's held here. And I know it's very, very different than the states. And as I say, we're I in the States, I would have been going to practice and and, you know, getting involved in, in supporting wholesome action and supporting change in the way that it's done there. It's just not the way it's done here. Right. And speaking about how things are done, they're one of the things I'm finding as I follow the news is, there's reporting on many sectors of the story, the politics, the history, the motivations, looking at different people's biography and such. One of the things you don't find as much is the role of the Dhamma. The role of spiritual practice, of course, monastic society comes in, there's monks on either side of the aisle and the political motivations or leanings of monastics will come up in these reports, but really, the living spiritual practice of the Dhamma is something that is not really reported, but the stories and maybe it's not such a surprise in mainstream media, but that's also What we're covering here, that's why we're having this conversation is looking at where the dama fits into this. But where my question goes is, as one is trying to understand as an outsider, what is happening in Myanmar right now what kind of country Myanmar is about the culture, the people and everything else, when you're looking at all of the superficial elements of how everything comes together, but if you're missing the component of the Dhamma, and the core of that practice, what are you left with? How important do you feel it is to understand and gaining an understanding of this situation, to make sure that one has a dhama component in the overall paradigm of what we're looking at? And when that's missing? What is lost? You can't see me, Joe, but I'm nodding along with you as you ask the question, because it's so true. The Dhamma is so central to this culture, and so not understood by the people who write about this place in the media from overseas when they're writing about whatever, you know, we hear about outside. So big political movements, and all those sorts of things get reported from a vacuum of understanding about them in a vacuum of understanding how incredibly important it is, for this whole culture. It's it's warping, whiffed, it's woven through the whole thing. And these implicit assumptions about how the practice affects one's life, aren't even understood, or, you know, they're not part of the conversation. And also not part of the conversation is the fact that it's complicated. And that understanding of complication is a very dharmic understanding, actually, because when you understand Dhamma, you understand samsara. And you understand the vagaries of samsara, you understand that things are complicated, and not black and white. And the conditions are very difficult. And that, that lack of a black and white, you know, this is good. And that's bad that that honouring of complication is something that I really see is missing, in what is written about this country, and is what is written about the players that, you know, create the news that other people in the rest of the world absorb about this country, the big players on both sides of the aisle. And so it's very easy to demonize certain people, because of one thing or another. But that negates the very fact of this complication. And there's so much that we do not understand, not not being here, not living here. And even I as a foreigner being here for a long time. Now I know there are things about this culture, I will never understand. So to not overlay my own ideas of right and wrong. So rigidly on this is also an act of dogma. And that's also missing when you're reporting on a soapbox without understanding that. So the understanding of dogma is incredibly important, not only as it it is part of working with weft of the culture, but also the understanding of how am I responding to this and overlaying my own ideas on this culture that to me is, is quite different from mine and holds values that are quite different from mine. political values, social values, Dharma values, the Dharma values I resonate with, the rest is often a mystery. So yes, you're right. There's so much that gets left out. It's a very two dimensional view of this country that I read when I read something in the press from outside and it frustrates me because they're just not getting it. So thank you for sharing this dumb aspect. Because it really needs to be taking into account both the implicit aspect of it as it plays out in everybody's day to day life, but also the understanding that we we overlay our own views on something that is much more complicated than we're giving it credit for. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. And it's and that's also that's what this platform is for and that's especially what for this what this interviews for that's this interview was looking at the city One with the one component that is always left out of the understanding when you see it portrayed to the world. And on that note, I want to talk a little bit about meta. This is your core practice. This is your core teaching. This is one of the core teachings of your tradition. I want to give some background first, just a couple of personal stories, and then throw it over to you in context of those stories with what you see today. So the first story is concerns my visit about 10 years ago to Auschwitz concentration camp being Jewish, having lost members of my family in the Holocaust, it was a very intense experience, it was more intense than I was expecting energetically. And I was touched, that I was coming, I should say, I went to visit Auschwitz after about a month or so of practice. So I was coming from a real bedrock of practice at that point. But I was touched that in addition to the fear that I actually felt in myself, which was surprising to me to feel that that fear, and what today is a safe place. And I don't feel I was projecting it, it came from the recesses of my mind. In addition to that, I felt some degree not overwhelming, but some degree of metta not just for the victims who looked like me, and were related to me, but also for the perpetrators. And for the incredible burden of evil and bad karma. They caused themselves to perpetuate this Act. The this was a historical thing, of course, it's connected to who I am today and anti semitism, my face and whatnot. But it is a historical thing that has ended. The second anecdote relates to you actually. And my mother was on a meta retreat with you. Her meta was going very well. She was following all the, at least this is according to the story. She told me later. She was following all the instructions you gave her and was progressing quite well, and not having really any hang ups and being able on the metta retreat, being able to, to just proceed smoothly with everything that that you were telling her and that that you were instructing and saying no, you know, there's no blocks, no blocks, everything's fine. There's no person that, you know, this person was a little difficult, but it was okay. And the way she told the story, you kind of smile at her and you said, You know, I think there is one person that you can, might have some difficulty with, and almost like, well, what was that? Like? You know, what are you talking about? And I, this was, I don't know, 2017 or something. And somehow the inference came that you were speaking about our former President Donald Trump, and no offense to anyone with different political leanings, but your instruction was to work on meta four, then President Trump, which my mom just recoiled and, and said, No, this is an impossibility. And you proceeded to have this discussion of the practice of sending meta to Trump and your practice of your work of daily sending meta to him. And so these two anecdotes lead to the role of meta and what meta is in the world today. And you let off this conversation by talking about who we send metta to. And we might be sending metta to people in Myanmar that are perpetrators to the injustice and the pain and the suffering that we feel. So I don't know what the question is in there. There's there's two anecdotes, and then there's the current situation, but let me throw that over to you and see what where you would take that that difficulty of sending meta to the past Nazis to former President Trump and to the current, perpetuate the current people who are perpetuating trauma today. How How does one do that? How one does it is just to do it. There was a very short answer to that. But it helps to understand that there isn't a duality here. It's not that we're standing in our little pure corner and they're standing in their little evil corner and they're always and forever different than we to understand the banality. It's so banal, you know, evil, we can all be that we all have the capacity that could have been us. We might think not. But we don't know. We don't know what we're capable of both wholesome and unwholesome. So to not put bad people in a bad person box and put us the rest of us in a good person box is very, both very freeing and both very freeing and very challenging. Because it's easier to be with that when you think, oh, there, I just, I just don't get that. I would never do that, well, maybe we never would. But they're also human beings. So to do that every day for beings who are creating suffering, immense suffering in the world, of all sorts, for me is a daily practice. And I can't say I succeed. Most days actually, I don't at first at least. But often I come around to that, you know, that's in it. That is happening more and more easier, more and more easily as the years go on. Yeah, at first, I had the same response as your mom to that person. That was like, No way I can't read it, you know, at the time, but it's possible, and to everybody, not holding them as separate from us. But as together in this samsaric soup, and you know, we're all doing what we can do, given karmic and conditions, so come Ahsoka, that's their idea of what a good thing to do is, it's not my idea. But May all beings be happy, anyway. And that last word is such an important piece of it for me anyway. Because it honors difference. It honors the very fact that we can't control how others are. And the Buddha said explicitly, in the suta, on the two kinds of thought, in the module, mini Kaia, there's wholesome and there's unwholesome and people will do both. If you do not radiate metta to beings who were indulging in unwholesome speech and action, you are not following my teachings. That's what he said. And he was quite kind of in your face about it about, you know, talking about what they could be doing. I invite everybody to go read that. So I won't say it here. But it's in your face. So whatever people do, we radiate net to to them, because they are the same as we are. And we are the same as they are. There's no difference. Right? I think some people listening to this that don't may not have the depth of background and metta practice might have some question about well, what's really the good of this what what can this accomplish on that note, we should mention that there is an event a virtual event that we're looking to plan on February 14, to put a plug in for it to have a people practitioners around the world on February 14, details are still being worked out. But to send and radiant Mehta from wherever they are to Myanmar to everyone in Myanmar. And the experience of doing so may be questioned by some has been what is this really accomplishing? And you're just kind of sitting sitting or maybe you're standing or walking but some naysayers out there they are wondering what is really the effectiveness? What What good does any of this do? How would you respond to that? What is the good of everyone radiating meant to everyday Everyone ready more people ready in a met on one single day? What is the power of metta what it can do in the world, especially as time? Yeah, first to say, by radiating metal, you're not denying the fact that people are doing unwholesome things. Yeah, some people say that, oh, it's like, you know, it gives this person permission, didn't know it does not. Not at all. But because people will do all sorts of things. The only thing we can control is how we respond. And to respond for metta is a place of real power. And what good It does, for starters, very pragmatically, is we don't get caught in our unwholesome response to whatever it is. We don't get caught in grief. We don't get caught in anger, we don't get caught in despair. And from that place, we can act and speak from a much more balanced place. And we're not adding to the hatred in the world. By doing so, I know some people think to do work in social justice, one needs one's anger. And I would draw a line between righteous indignation and anger. We still know Even if you're radiating metal, what's wrong and what's right, you know, and what's possible and what's not, you don't lose sight of that. And you don't lose sight of, of the terrible impact of unwholesome action on other people, and how wrong that is. But we have to be able to act and speak anyway. So that to radiate metta all together means that our actions and our speech collectively come from a place of love, not from a place of hate, and that is so much more powerful. Look at Gandhi, he changed Indian history by acting from that place and, and creating the conditions for millions of others to do the same thing that's gone out of fashion now, but but it still works. And not to forget that. And so to collectively come together to, to radiate mentum. To connect with that, it helps us and also people here in an intangible way, you know, we're so invested in something we can touch and feel and see, and that can be reported in the press. But there's an intangible element to the benefit of metta that you can't report about that you can't even see. But people feel. And to for people here to know that everybody is radiating metta to them is a powerful thing. And that can do a lot of good for people's to uplift people here. And that is so urgently needed right now is that kind of uplift, because there's despair. There's hopelessness. There's anger there, there's you can imagine everything. So to uplift is what we can do. And that's incredibly valuable. Right. Do that leads me to another question do Burmese around you? Do they know? Are they aware of how people overseas are feeling their pain or supporting them or invested in the issue? Are they aware of that support taking place? And if so, how is that affecting them? The people around me are aware because I tell them? But I can't answer that question. In general, I just don't know. I can tell you people around me when I say Oh, people outside are radiating metal, it brings a little light. It brings some people are touched by that. It might not draw them out of whatever they're feeling. But there's a there's a level of being touched. That is really quite lovely. And it does help you can see, you know, just to know you're not alone is a huge help. Even though you have to be the one going through this, you know. Yeah. Right. So that is a way that we can be there right now to let people know that we are holding them in our mind. We're holding them in our practice. We're radiating metta. And the last question I have for you, I know that your lunch is fast approaching is you had referenced a bit ago about a you would quoted a story of a suta that had come to mind. And I wanted to to ask during this week that that that was one suta you mentioned are there other suitors or references from the Pali Canon or some part of Scripture or even something from a meditation teacher that you had is there is there something that is reverberating and resonating in your mind, especially with the events that have been going on this week, something that has taken on added importance, giving you added strength or guidance, maybe several things but what what is what from your past reading and instruction has been coming to you now and being of support
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not so much support but determination has been really on my forte, the forefront of my my my heart and mind the Buddhist saying because you know all conditioned things are impermanent, all conditioned things are suffering. These are the roots of trees practice now lest you regret it later. And that comes to mind. Definitely I thought of that many times this week. And through the Coronavirus, the same you know, it's like well, this is we can feed wholesome or we can feed unwholesome and I have a choice right now what am I going to do with this And the second thing that comes to mind a story that really resonates with me that has been resonating with me this week and again through the Coronavirus situation is the story of the weavers daughter, which is a beautiful story about a young girl who went happened to to witness the Buddhist speaking in her village, about the closeness of death. And she just, she was determined, after having heard that to really take that on as practice. So every day she reflected about how death is certain how we don't know when it will come, or where we will be, or anything about that. Um, and she took that on as a daily practice. Some years later, the Buddha came back, but three years later, he came back. And she is a very long story, I won't tell the whole thing but she, she went, she was unable to go at first to to where he was, and he knew she was, you know, she wanted to with his omniscient vision, he waited until she showed up. She was late because of her work is her daughter and Weaver she had work to do. And then he engaged her in a bit of a like conversation like a Cohen, it was like he was asking her questions, and she was answering, and it was riddle like, and all the people around were mumbling. It's like, she's being disrespectful, and but she was directly answering his questions about her practice with death. And how it It opened her completely to the way life is. And it opened her in a way that was so balanced and free. About the way life is. It's a beautiful story. And, of course, it it has an ending some of these stories have endings that are quite intense. It doesn't have a happy ending on a superficial level. But because her practice was so deep, it has a very happy ending. This freed her heart and mind. And so for all of us to understand our vulnerability, and the vulnerability of everyone in this country, to take that in and know that that is the way things are. The fact that this is happening shows us that vividly that we can't count on things going right? That's not since our so these two, these two things, renew my determination to keep connecting with that, so that my own reactivity doesn't, doesn't take me over. So that I can stay balanced as much as I can with the way things are, which is really amazingly difficult, you know, on so many levels. So those are the two things that are sustaining me the story of the weavers daughter. And really to, to deeply understand that this is the way things are. And these are the roots of trees. And we all have to practice with this. This is the very place of our practice. And we have to do it now. We have to do it now. And the last thing I would share is something the Buddhist said that I come to again and again when I hit a wall internally because I can't honestly say I'm always successful or even half the time, instinct balanced is the Buddhist said very clearly, if it were not possible, I would not ask you to do it. To take all of that together to take his encouragement and his instruction, to face our vulnerability and to know it's possible to be balanced with this and to just keep going one step at a time. That's what's resonating with me. And that's what I'm doing. And that's what I would encourage everybody to do in your own way, because that's all any of us can do. In this world, we can't control it. But we can work with our own reactivity, so that we can rest in a free place and act and speak from a free place. I really thank you for that. I thank you for your courage and vulnerability and wisdom in sharing I think I speak for everyone listening as I mentioned at the beginning, I feel something like a stand in for however many meditators are listening just hungry for Anything that comes out of some Dhamma practitioners experience of living there right now and being able to gain through your vision and experience, what is happening and inform us. And I think you've just done an extraordinary service for, you know, for myself and for everyone listening to be able to tap into a country and a practice and a culture that is so important to all of us. Before we close here, I just want to ask if there were any other topics that weren't addressed by the questions I asked if there was any other thing you wanted to add to people listening in. Now, Joe, nothing comes to mind, I mean, meta presence, just keep going one step at a time, that pretty much covers it, pretty much covers it. And to understand the world is the way it is. And each of us has the beautiful opportunity, but also the the profound responsibility to learn how to act effectively, and from a place of balance. So this is the practice that everybody is doing here. And this is the practice that we all need to learn how to do. Well, thank you so much for your time and your voice and wishing you very well for your practice and for the area and the country that you're in. So thank you for having me. Thank you so much for this connection and just profound well wishing, coming from here out to all of you there. May you all be well and happy and at ease with the world the way it is and thank you so much for your concern and kindness