Transcript: Episode 22: Zaw Win Htet, Part 2
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Zaw Win Htet, which appeared on October 31, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
One of the beautiful things I've always appreciated about Burmese monasteries is how everyone has the opportunity to practice selfless giving. I've seen poor families give just a spoonful of rice to a communal alms bowl. And I've seen the children of still poor families wake up at five in the morning to climb the trees in order to collect the first blossoms that opened in the morning, which they then offer to the Buddhist shrine. As our Insight Myanmar podcast runs on the power of donation, we also greatly appreciate any amount of support to keep our engine running. If even a small fraction of our listeners donated the equivalent of a cup of coffee as a monthly pledge, we would be well funded into the future, and even be able to expand our mission. Of course, we also greatly appreciate one time donations as well. To learn more about how you can contribute, please go to Insight myanmar.org slash donation, that's Insight Myanmar, one word by en, si, gh t, m YN m ar.org. Slash donation. With that, enjoy the show that follows.
01:17
A lot of
Host 01:57
you're listening to the second part of a two part interview with zalben tent. If you have not already done so we encourage you to listen to the first part. However, you're also welcome to start in right here. As we move on to new topics in this section of the interview. In any case, enjoy what follows. Alright, so talking a little bit about some of these great monks that were in your region and their life stories, their background, their teaching in your relationship to them. One more to add to the list is the most important monastic disciple of Lady say a doe who was money and say it out money and say it I also set up his monastery just south of Manu, I believe
Zaw Win Htet 02:37
Yeah. What do you know about him? ammonia zero. And so we we know somebody, right? His monastery or his monastery, because they're amazing, the Buddha, Buddha Buddha, right. So all right, one zero, was from the lower part of Yama. And he studied the Buddhist literature in Mandalay. And then he went into the forest to take meditation. After he, he made some studies, and in salt or Mandalay area macchiato. And then finally, he met Larry Sergey, who was the very famous meditation teacher at the time. So he came and Matt Holliday said Oh, gee, and then he asked for the meditation to teach him so and then mahallesi Raji asked him, not to stay, not to stay in the dorm, and not to stay in the village like that, they are 10 principles, he asked, and then he requests a promised and then he went into the forest, minion, when you forest at the time, money for us was very famous for God, and also, and also for other evils, and also for the danger of snakes and also for the danger zones, like that. Everybody is scared to go in the forest. And but he choose the area for his forestry monastic life. And then it is also not very far, only about a mile from in a village. And then he went in the forest, and so he can collect his food every Monday, now very far, neither very far nor very close to the village. So people do know, you do the forest area. So his meditation was not disturbed by the people and the visitors later, right. And then, after he took a very hard walk or meditation for 10 years, as he brought me to his Teacher, Valerie zero. And he started to teach speeches all around the country. And now he did the vocoder and he was famous, he was well known as moonjune zero because his name was he was named after the forest, where he lived monito Mini forest. Monia forest also has a history, the ancient ancient Buddhas built by Mauryan, King of inwa era and also they are also like Emir Emirates and also the Duke of munia in our region of Nima, so Manya and King Kimani bit, the Tambo Buddha's stupors in this area, but later and gradually it became a forest and no one dares to go there. But when you said all you want in the forest, and then he became famous, and also he says he brightest, mid about Verna means loving kindness, sending a wishes to all beings and also and one he is, for example, it is an adjournment as an emergency murder, and that he puts all the, his loving kindness on someone on something, for example, one very famous, out came, ran to him, and then one that was very close to him on the trip to collect his food on to meet me in a village, that house came and ran rescue him, but very close to him, when it was very close to him. And he was that the ox was stopped, as like someone pulled back, either an awesome run away from him, that is also very famous story. And also another story of his meditation is he was meditating. And, and, and also he got that also time, he went to the village to read to collect his food. On the way he found a very big snake, and very angry snake. And that angry snake is very famous in the villages. But the famous, the famous Nick, when it is in front of him, and then he goes away from heavy spoolie later. So the power of His power of his Yeah, mentality. Yes,
Host 07:50
right. Right. So he went into this scary forest by himself, after being recommended by lady said, to undergo this practice, and for 10 years, he's living and practicing alone in this, this inhospitable forest that he later finds out actually houses the ruins that kingstonian had built a pagoda many hundreds of years earlier that just happened to be where where he went to establish his practice. And then that after his 10 years of solitary practice, he then becomes a famous meditation teacher, one of the first meditation teachers in modern era to begin to reach a large audience. He uses new technology that's coming out at the time, like the loudspeaker, which is able to transmit your voice to larger groups of people recordings. Yes. So using this new technology, it would be like if a monk today was really understanding deeply what was going on with like Facebook or Instagram or was using this technology that had never been used before for that purpose to get out these Dhamma sermons. This is what Malian say to start to do with the new technology of the day and to start to reach many more people around and to spread his teachings just as his own teacher, Lady seda had spread his teachings. And then this monastery starts to be built up into something quite special. And actually today there there are two very distinct parts of the monastery there's what you reference them Bodie. This is one of the main tourist attractions of the region and many people come to see
Zaw Win Htet 09:29
them beautiful and especially architecure. In Buddhism, we were believed that many many Buddhists attained enlightenment before this Gautam Buddha, before this karma Buddha point over 500 over 500,000, Buddhas attained enlightenment. And also it is also to remind us, we missed 500,000 over 500,000 chances Have voda to see Buddha and do listen to Dhamma and also to practice Dhamma and then to liberate from the sufferings. So, this is also to he might also intend to do remind all the BBA, we also missed this chance like that he built this pagoda with a combination of Western culture and Myanmar culture and also Cambodian, and also Thailand, and you can only see in Thailand and Cambodia, the flowers, flowers Buddha, the Buddha, which is made of flowers like that. So, in Yama, it is very rare to see from very ancient times to today time today more than time, so, anyway, he ma ma, ma, you know, handicraft only based on wood, and but he also combined the use of cement and building cement concrete building, like in the West, and he built the pagoda with a combination of architectures. And there are many, many, many more powders that use inside and also homicide over 500,000 reflecting
Host 11:19
stories.
Zaw Win Htet 11:21
Yes, yes. So, and also he is very smart and intelligent, to give a name for each Buddha.
Host 11:29
Each of the 500,000
Zaw Win Htet 11:30
Yeah, not for not for all but for very, for human sized and big statues, the bigger Yeah, the names and he gave a very special and also even Bali scholars
Host 11:46
have to be surprised in his and ne ne ne Bali. This this is kind of an overwhelming experience for the visitor to have. It's been described as kind of like a Buddhist, disneyland, disneyland. It's so colorful, it's so it's even cartoony in some ways. It's so bright and vibrant and alive. Yeah, it's unlike any other pagoda you would see elsewhere. And when I was first taken there, when I first came to the country, no one explained to me that this was the design of some great Burmese monk who was a disciple of Lady say it I was just dropped off at the entrance and walked around and was just where am I and what is this and this is this is so different and unusual. When you hear the story behind it, it's really quite inspiring. But it's the feeling you get with your senses walking into this place is really quite unique.
Zaw Win Htet 12:41
Yeah, is unique and also very peaceful inside to walk in right and to see the world. And that is also a saying, in Myanmar, Bebo, one, we walked in the pagoda, when we walked in the Dumbo, since there are many Buddhists that use so we can know. We can all be homage to all the Buddha statues. So and then we in our mind, we, we pay respect to all 500,000 Buddhas like that and in one place,
Host 13:16
right? There's never so many Buddhist statues, yeah, respects to, but most of the tourists that come will go to this kind of colorful display of the Buddhist statues. And what they miss is the old meditation center behind the Cambodian Pagoda, which I actually find more interesting.
Zaw Win Htet 13:36
Yeah. Behind the construction or this guru. And also, there are also stories, maybe many tourists missed it. For example, the stories of some two oxen came at the time to wind oxygen came to, to the ministry, and then they were dissolved. To build the pagoda. For example, in the mixing of cement concrete, they use like a big, big we, uh, we'd like stone to mix the concrete and Sunday lighter. So and then there are two Why ask exam, soft themselves for the construction or the Buddha? And then you will also see the oxygen studies in the northwest, not not east of the temple.
Host 14:35
Oh, that's interesting. Yes. Right. Yeah. And this old, this old part of the monastery, which isn't as colorful, what's so fascinating to me is it's one of the very early prototypes of a meditation center. Yeah, because the concept of a meditation center is fairly new. It's fairly recent. It's a it's a mostly a post World War Two development and yet this was built much before that. So it's not really in use today. But you can see some of the old meditation cells. You can see some of the cooties where the single dwelling places where the meditators would live for courses.
Zaw Win Htet 15:11
Yeah, and other but all of that combined.
Host 15:13
Right, right. And so it's, it's kind of like a and there's a museum documenting
Zaw Win Htet 15:19
his life, as Oban hauls for the public, for the visitors.
Host 15:24
Right, right. It's not really in use today. But this was a place actually, if you read journey into Burmese silence by Mary Biles. She's an Australian meditator who visited me and Mar in 1950s and 1960s. Yeah, and one of the chapters in that book is about her visit to moinian Monastery when it was a functioning meditation center. And so if you're interested in kind of the development of how, how this practice moved from monks living in Burmese monks living in forests and caves that were just teaching each other and practicing in solitary to a practice that was in a large meditation center and had a structure in a format and administration, this monastery is very interesting, because it shows that transition taking place it shows one of the great forest monks in the tradition of Lady seda starting to expand these teachings to too many lay people coming to him. And it was told that this man, this meditation part of the monastery developed during World War Two when many refugees were streaming in, and moinian say it, I said, well, to these families, you can come and stay with me, but you have to follow this schedule of following precepts and listening to Dhamma discourses and meditating yourself. And so this was where some of his instructions started to take off when they came there.
Zaw Win Htet 16:44
Yeah, yeah, I'm almost to talk about it. Yeah, it is a very, very early moon meditations. And so refugees also lived in a monastery, and both in the war two time, and I remember one story of the shadow, the great monk who founded this monastery, monastery, yeah, ammonia. 010 was walking in a walk way, in a budget way. And then the refugees were also staying in this monastery. And following his teachings and taking meditation. Many people came to the monastery. So at the time, the Japanese, also withdrawing from Yama, and withdrawing at the time withdraw, the Japanese withdrew from Manjula and then the British followed and Japanese and then the British Army shoot and fired like launcher. And to to the ministry location. At that time, one bomb was dropped on the on the roof of the passageway where Sara Lee was walking, and the other time, and then all the explosion was huband. And all the meditation or the meditators and the monks, and the Bieber came and Ronnie shouting, oh, our zero die or theater buster, we Oh my God, and the one the one day reach nearby him and then he he stood up and making her making the desk gleaming the desk on his roof, and no injury was caused. And that it is also an amazing story of his middle bawana meditation.
Host 18:42
That's right and i It reminds me when I visited that monastery at one point there was a older man who had been living there for a while and as I was walking around, he pointed out some some of the stone stone wall or something yeah, and pointed out were gunshots from World War Two
Zaw Win Htet 19:04
had damage Do you use that stone?
Host 19:07
I saw stones that according to this old old man had been bullets fired World War Two. Showing that that what what the monastery had endured during those difficult times? Yeah. But what's so interesting as well about the monastery is that you know today we have people meditate in Dhamma halls they meditate in sales and a pagoda like just a very nice, basically large closet where just fits one person sitting. It's interesting to see his vision of how he wanted meditators to practice because the walls of inside Moni and say inside Mondrian monastery the walls inside Monia monastery, have little inserts where it can fit. One person either lying down or sitting in meditative posture. It's hard to describe this without seeing a picture. But it's basically the walls have a carving cutout inside them. Where and, and, and a little cubicle where one person can fit inside there. Yeah, and you could either sit in meditation, or you could lay down and there's kind of like a stone pillow at one end of that inset where you can, you can rest you can sleep, you could rest your head on this, this kind of stone pillow or you could sit in meditation. And it's kind of like a sail, an open sail with built inside within a wall. Yeah, that can accommodate many meditators. And you still see this today. And then around the inset, there's quotations from Moni and say an hour from the Buddha and there's there's pictures that are also engraved. So you can have this kind of Dhamma inspiration and wisdom. Yeah, above your head as you meditate inside the walls. Yeah, you've seen this
Zaw Win Htet 20:55
Yeah.
Host 20:56
So very interesting. So, last place, we have to talk about that is also in your region also connected to some great Dharma teachers are these caves, yeah, this is shut down and pulling down pulling down right, pulling down cave. So what do you know about that?
Zaw Win Htet 21:11
Yeah, pulling down as we looked at the bindings, Mirror Mirror bindings, on on the walls are the gifts natural gifts. We scholars cast it was 500 to 600 years ago. At the time, you know people you can see that India is very hot and very, very dry and India at the time BP and on the monastery the monastics they try and or to live in a cave. So, they can also meditate and they can also spend the time in their caves as well. So, anyway, what is special in this special with this area is you can see the mural paintings and Buddha statues in every caves, there are many many, many caves, you can walk around up and down. And as as time goes on, you can guess how hard you need to work to crave out the cave or glamour Yeah, so deep on this limestone mount here mountains. So, and also there are also other or stories that zoji flew in hoopoe when he lived in this area and he also was zoji another another name from wizard brightest. So, he was a superior, he got a superior supernatural power by making this How can I say by making some like medicine, traditional medicine from from the Himalayas are very, very big, poorest leader. So he also believed that he also lived in this area that's why Bibi also called Paul went down named after his name for when and also somebody has a different story is pulling down pulling pulling means I will also get back to do alchemy. So, in alchemy, when we do when we do the alchemy in our culture, and then we make a we make fire and putting a container on the fire and then and also a very small container which is called lone low middle of a kind of mud and also inside the model the model which is going to be a ball which is going to be believed a bow foo and it will be by the economist put the model inside the container and also the covered with a match again with a much a cover and then the put it inside the fire container. And then and they may they give the heat a lot or temperature to the to the ball to the middle and it is called we say Poland. Poland means that kind of act. So the naming was also derived from this belief. Pulling Down pulling down means doing the alchemy at alchemy act alchemy brightest the alchemy row.
Host 24:41
And this is another amazing place. These are as you said they're limestone caves that you can only imagine the difficulty in carving these caves out putting carving Buddha images out of the actual cave, trying murals, beautiful murals on these caves. are incredibly detailed and meaningful. And go back hundreds and hundreds of years, every successive king sent some kind of artists to add on to it. And so you're not just seeing one cave or one period of Temple artwork, but you're actually seeing successive kings and artists over many centuries and many different styles going in and giving their their piece but then added on to this is a layer that this has, as you talk about the etymology of the name and where it comes from. This is one of the most famous places in Myanmar for the practice of wachesaw wachesaw have been coming here for centuries, yeah, to engage in their practice. And so this is yet another layer of it. And to add a third layer on to it. This is we have the story of say otha G, say otha g was the teacher of CFG. Who begin Yeah, who taught sn Goenka and we don't know much about siata G's life, we know that he learned from lady Santa and Lady say that guided his practice. And we don't know much about those years. But one thing we do know is that say otha g practiced in Poland down. We don't know where he practiced. But we know that and it's not surprising because this is a secluded place with Buddhist caves and very peaceful, very natural. It's near monywa, where the lady would have lived. Yeah. And so we also know that another stage of this history is that say Apogee, worked on his own passionate practice in the Poland down structure and area. Yeah. And, and so there's, there's all these different layers of the story and the history. And when you go today, you can also see the victory land.
Zaw Win Htet 26:43
You can also see the victory Land of the muddy data as well, was that not only there with our brightest with our brightest practitioners, but also for the meditators? For the meditators, Yogi's it is also a victory land. Yes, you can say victory land. So maybe you said that you also want to do that we'll do that place for digging this good sigh.
Host 27:13
What do you mean by victory land,
Zaw Win Htet 27:15
victory land means one, the ancient VBA succeeded in the India force, maybe visa or maybe in other practices. They succeeded by living here in this by living in this area. So and the lady Bibi, if we go there, and also we can also succeed in our actions in our efforts in our beliefs.
Host 27:45
This is Amir
Zaw Win Htet 27:46
ami, ami. We can say like that
Host 27:51
it's known as ami. And are you suggesting that before saothar je went it would have been known as ami a and that might have been one of the reasons he went there. Yes, yes. Right. Okay, so So you're saying that it had something of a reputation for being a play? Yes, there's there's these places out there called around me and Mark, in Chelsea, there's most famous piece of Alan meais, where they're known as as like a land of success, where you if there's some kind of success that you want, whether it's big or small in life, that some geographical places are better suited for it, and they become known by this name. And so you're saying that because of the prior weights of practice, and the the the caves and the murals and the Buddha's, it might have had a reputation as being this place of success, and that might have been what drew me to want to be a lay person undertaking this passionate practice, which was extremely rare at the time and to want to do it in a place where he'd give himself the best chance of success. Exactly. I mean, that's interesting. I didn't hear that there. Yeah, right. Right. And if you go today, you'll be greeted by hundreds 1000s of monkeys,
Zaw Win Htet 29:02
right? Yes. Yeah,
Host 29:05
that's a monkey place. Yeah,
Zaw Win Htet 29:06
yeah. Yeah. In our region, for when monkeys and boba monkeys famous sometimes when we make a joke to our children, you are Who are you? Pulling monkey or Bobo monkey?
Host 29:23
And what's the difference between a proper monkey Papa Pope we should say not Popeyes, famous region, but also has monkeys? Yeah, so what's the difference between a Popa monkey Yeah,
Zaw Win Htet 29:33
and the Desiderata relationship between Poland and mumble bah Huh,
Host 29:40
what's that?
Zaw Win Htet 29:40
Yeah. Well, I
Host 29:42
hope we should say is the famous mountain in Bergen.
Zaw Win Htet 29:45
Yeah, the supernatural Bowman. poopoo when also want to bah bah, bah, bah bah by and by flying to and fro like that in his life.
Host 29:59
Interesting. So when someone says, Are you a Poland monkey or a Popa monkey? Do they have different characteristics?
Zaw Win Htet 30:07
Actually, which is was which is more believable? later? I think baba baba monkeys clever and baboon pullin monkeys are sometimes aggressive, lighter than the lighter.
Host 30:21
I see when, when we visited we went with our friend who Agha, the monk from Netherlands. And he was he very much wanted the monkeys to have a chance to improve their, their their armies by being in contact with a monk. And you know, and you know, these monkeys are monkeys have terrible sheilah they're always stealing, they're always trying. Yeah. And several times who Agha would approach the monkey respectfully, who had something in his hand? Oh, yeah. And just wait there and let the monk have the opportunity to give whatever his object was to who I got there by making tremendous merit by being a monkey offering to a monk but it never quite happened when we were there. Yes, yes. We should also say that if anyone is going there, we I cannot recommend enough this guide that we local girl who lives there called kenmar. And she she's a guide she's she she just lives there. So anyone that happens to to go there and to ask for her you cannot get a better guide to anywhere in the whole country. She's one of the most amazing people that I've met. She knows many of the monkeys by name by and by reputation, she knows their behavior. She knows their their different characteristics. She's read all of the books about the region. So she she she's better than many official tour guides that I have studied their craft for years. Because she's so knowledgeable about her region. She's read so much about it. She's talked about it. So she really is well informed about each and every site and what she's able to give. And funny enough she she's she speaks fluent English and she is self taught from reading. Bodie, the town's discourses. So she read Bodie, the town's only in Myanmar with someone read Dhamma discourses to learn a language she read Buddha town's discourses in English and in Myanmar. And she has a very well rendered book that she showed us. one page English one page Myanmar. Oh yeah. And she studied the English language by reading both sides of this of these book. So she's able to give she's able to to greet tourists with in full English by describing the scene. So she's she's a wonderful person.
Zaw Win Htet 32:32
Yeah, Kayla.
Host 32:33
Yes. Yeah. So, so great. So this is a really rich area of great Dhamma teachers and historic sites. And I'd like to close by learning a little bit about you and your family and what you do with the monastic school.
32:48
First, just
Host 32:49
about your parents, I believe your parents are trustees at the lady monastery and monywa today is that correct?
Zaw Win Htet 32:58
Is that a standard Buddhist monastery?
Host 33:01
I thought lady mood I thought you're the lady monastery I lead
Zaw Win Htet 33:04
Yeah, it is a branch lady monastery, no not anymore in our township right right. Because propagation leak,
Host 33:15
right what can you describe what the Lady Mu organization is?
Zaw Win Htet 33:18
Yes, it is an organization which consists of binder trustee members and also the monks who are the disciples of Maha lady zero and who followed the tradition and who maintained the Maha ladies Cerro de cheese and books and also Maha ladies self organizing lady tradition tomorrow my traditions and stir mama tradition ceremonies like that. So dama demodex later, so, the the, the undertake those kinds of etiquette parties to as I mentioned,
Host 34:02
and they hold meditation courses as well.
Zaw Win Htet 34:04
Yeah, tradition of Lady citizen Yeah, tradition of Lady Sierra Right, right.
Host 34:09
And your your,
Zaw Win Htet 34:11
for example, if if, if a monastery in town or in a village, if if the residing monk of the monastery, wants to organize a meditation retreat, maybe 10 days or seven days retreat as per the tradition or morality move, and then they they can join with the league. And they can, they can come and they can harmonize, they, they can invite the teachers, meditation teachers who travel around the country, so nilay democratica. So the the invited and they also have organizing the demodex and meditation retreats.
Host 35:00
Right. So they they propagate ladies teachings through discourses and books and meditation courses all over the country. Yes, yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's wonderful. Because of course, ladies say it is from that region. So that's the kind of headquarters of his Dhamma. Yes. Yeah. Right. And so and can to close, can you share a little bit about the monastic school that you were involved with in your hometown? All right.
Zaw Win Htet 35:23
As though you you have been to a monastery school, right? Yes, yes. Actually, that Manas, that monasteries residing monk, the abort is also since he is very advisable in his practice of meditation. He also practices both honesty Bhavana, and made up of tradition. So before he founded a monastic school, and in his in this area, and it was a forestry area, and which is very scary with the dark trees and victories at the time. And in the religious or near the nearby villages. Actually, we can we can even or see that the village is just like bunches of like groups or huts of the farmers grow and lay there. So they live around the area and be very rude and they like to fish and drank and also be gay or not civilized, but not mild, with Dima not following nor following the Kama Sutra at the time among very educated man who also who's studied various literature's that the man and a woman monk of the monastery from China, who invited him and when he was studying in the Buddhist, the Mayan Bali University, and in Chung, so, he was studying at the time, but one he has one he was invited to recite in that area to to give the teachings to the people nearby from nearby villages. And then he stopped his study, and he choose to accept their invitation because he always says that an example like okay filling and the water in their full in a boat, which is full of water, it is a no use, but filling the water in the MD, MD or very little water board. And then it is very beneficiary.
Host 37:49
So in other words, he wanted to take the the training and the Dhamma wisdom that he had, and instead of giving it in a place where there was already access to that kind of teaching, he wanted to go to a place where there was none. Yes.
Zaw Win Htet 38:02
Yes. That's very impressive. Yeah. So, so very admire, there is his admire, he will, brightest. So anyway, and he, he won't do the area and he he stayed very hard, and particularly in the monastery in Amman in a very small heart. And then at that time, people are very scared and do not dare to come to his monastery. That's why the invite to invite the invite a man who invited him to recite it in that area, and then they have to sleep to sleep, to spend the night time to together with him in his small heart and other very big banyan tree you can see now and also it is also famous in that region, that area is also famous for for his net worship. In that in the area in the region. Bibi worship also Medea net, Madea mother grandmother net. So, there are dumbbells, actually no, not a dumbbells like very small orders and other venue trees. So people are so afraid or the net and also no one dares to go to him. He's the spirits that live in the trees. Yeah. And then, but finally, later and later, his ministry was developed. And he also not only taught a Buddhist teachings, but also taught the people to be literate, how to read and write. And he was teaching over his over his wrist recited 30 years, 35 years. I think last year, it was 35 years anniversary. Now. So in 2011 instead of He, he met the chairperson, CIM Chairman, the Brasilia monk, from the guy who the masyado and sudama. Zero, saw he was teaching the Yankees not as a state recognized school, just as how to read and write and to educate the children. And he saw that and he was, and that's why he inspired him to open it, as a state recognized monastic school, this why and also Finally, he can provide a free education to this to this area, I do there are children, especially farmers, and especially very poor peasants, like that. So, now they are come they can have a chance to become educated. So this is a very admire river of do him. So and also be bear believed that this monastery was developed with the help of Medea mother, Maria grammar court, who is who is matija. Grandmother net.
Host 41:13
Can you explain that?
Zaw Win Htet 41:14
Yeah, actually, I have no idea about the complete story of Medea but that is Loki worship
Host 41:23
and net. That's the name of the name and this is not meant to the next Buddha. This
Zaw Win Htet 41:28
No, no, right? Yes, he is. He has a powerful, very overwhelming in that area. So many people, many local people believe that it was under this this supernatural being by nature being protection. Yeah, school was able to exert force Yeah. Before before his residents. Before his he resided in this monastery. There were two monks who stayed and recited in this monastery. And then they all did they do. One of them passed away. One of them died in nighttime, and one of them got crazy. So people have believed that if the current airport resume or not, isn't, does not have does not brightest, Buddha's teachings, Amida Bhavana. And in reality, if he does know brightest, he can also know the long
Host 42:20
career and what's been your involvement and relationship with
Zaw Win Htet 42:24
All right, so, and one, as I already said, should the masiero so he was teaching the kids and he's inspired him to open a monastery school and then do go to pandoh monastic school and Mandalay which is very famous for monastery, monastic education. So and he, the abort sumana wanted to go to find out who to register his ministry as a monastic school, but he doesn't know where it is. And then he, at the time I, I was just, I just passed matriculation examination from Pando. And then I was also home. And he, he came to our house and asked to take him and his team to pound the EU to register like that. So at the time, since that time, we had we started a relationship with Him. And then in 2011, when I was studying pre college aid program in pongo pre college program, and I, I visited there with one of my friends, and a, he requested to give the trainees for his teachers to ask Papaji the abode of Fano monastery Pono monastery school. They're about Alfano monastery school to ask him for giving the trainees and for inviting the teachers from his school. So and then I also asked a panel abort. And then he has his good teachers called the trainees. And later than I want, I volunteered in his monastery from 2017 to Dundee 90, then the 18. Yes. And one of the things you've been very active at doing is finding foreigners volunteers, teachers, backpackers, meditators that,
Host 44:26
that can come and stay at that school and help out by by teaching the kids and being involved as well. Yeah,
Zaw Win Htet 44:32
yes, yes. As you leave for the foreigners, they cannot stay at a monastery by law. So I also have with foreigners who want to volunteer and who want to learn Buddhist Buddhism, about Buddhism, and stay in this monastery. I also have with them to get a religious visa. So they can stay for a month or for two weeks, like that. So it is also in my belief that it is also a good marriage, a good deed to give an accommodation for them. So they can also learn Buddhism about Buddhism as well.
Host 45:18
Right. So this is this is a really unusual and kind of interesting thing that you've been able to do is to be this bridge between this very traditional very local and rural monastery that is trying to do this outreach of meditation and literacy and sanitation and health and other good services to local community. But you're from this region. So you know what they're doing. You're obviously native Burmese. So culturally, linguistically, you understand. But through your education, you've attended programs that some of the embassies and schools in Yangon, and you're fluent in English, and you know about Facebook and internet and you've traveled and everything else, you're able to be this bridge, where you can bring these good hearted foreigners that want to have this experience and want to help out into this place and kind of connect these two worlds. That's what I've seen. And that's been that's been really cool. It's been really interesting. Yes, thank you. Yeah.
Zaw Win Htet 46:12
So when I was young, my father, my my family, ran a bus from Ohio to Mandalay and back and forth. So, at that time, as I already said, it is the dark times, so far in a very restricted to come to our region, and then even to take to pick up a foreigner, a tourist, in the best, and the best driver are not very great to begin with. So at that time, my father and my brother, and they also very passionate about how being the foreigners and tourists in the dark times. So, in the bus station, they are missing, they are stopping the best and new bus stopped for them. But for for my parents and put my dad and brother, and this job, and then the big get and they take to their destination. So in the in every two in every security, two glasses or two, in every security gates, they check, and then the x my father and brother, how much have you got the same breast you can ask? but they are also human beings, we have to have the came and visit our country. So we should have them. So this this, my mind passion to have the tourist also comes from my bar from my father and brother.
Host 47:46
Right, right. And what's been the experience you've seen of bringing these foreigners into this monastery?
Zaw Win Htet 47:52
Please don't think that this is rude, even for the tourists at the time, and no one understands English. And also they don't they want to use the toilet and no one is no one does not understand so very, very hard for the tourists in my region at the time. So my brothers brought them to our house and let them use the toilet like that. So it is very delightful to have the tourists.
Host 48:22
Right and what's been the experience you've seen of bringing some of these foreigners into the monastery and involving involving them with the supporting the monastic education system,
Zaw Win Htet 48:31
they're the inspiration to me to involve in monastic education for the development or monastic education is I should start from when I was studying in pre college program, actually, I I want to point out womanist School since I was grade nine and so I best matriculation from this monastic school. So and also, I was also I also got a chance to study embryology program and like as a scholarship and then at the time, I remember in 2011, I study English at a British concert and also I I studied in pongo mondly is a big city for me because I come from a very rural small town. So when I see I could see many young people studying and reading the books and also listening English audios like that. So they are trying for the carrier for their life to improve their English I when I saw them, I was inspired. I had a dream to okay. I also would like to share with my MBA my community as I am getting this chance. I also want them to get a chance like this And in the monastery, the monastic education gives the free education to the poor children and also in the rural areas PBA in Yama, rabbit are more than double the number of the people who lives in the city, right. So for the poorer families, they can only afford to send their children to the free monastic education schools. So monastery education, we cannot say, we can even say that monastery education takes place a place an important role in Yama, Yama, education history. So that's why I am trying to share the chances and opportunities as much as I got in Mandalay, I also want the BB from my channel, get the chances and opportunities like me,
Host 50:57
right. So anyone listening to this? It's It's a beautiful monastery. It's a very caring community. They're trying to bring modern educational practices and methodologies to their students. They've had some very warm hearted and wonderful volunteers who've been out there. Yeah. Our mutual friend Jonathan. Yes. who's who's definitely developed a love of this country, and I'm sure is listening to this podcast as well.
Zaw Win Htet 51:22
Yes, he is one of the parents who inspire me to do work together to develop the education. Yes. In demo nest. ESCO.
Host 51:32
Yes, right. So anyone listening to this, who wants to be involved in this project for a short time or a long time through service or through a financial donation, this is a great project going on. And if you actually end up there, you'll also benefit from having one of the best local guides to the see the surroundings, which is also beautiful you've been hearing about during this podcast. So so that's wonderful. Last question to close out, you've, you've, you're a very serious meditator, you try to follow the Buddhist teachings as much as you can in your daily life, you've been to a lot of places in Myanmar, what has been your favorite place in the country to meditate
Zaw Win Htet 52:12
favorite place to meditate and my belief we can we can take meditation in our daily life, in our houses at home, but to also sign us is also very helpful to our calm mind. So, very silent and calm, very peaceful, without any too much noise. So, if I have to show one location, I I will say I will say that you know, in the east of in the east or Mandalay, near Mandalay Golf Club, and at the bottom or medical either gone down Monday, on Monday, it is very quiet and very silent. And also to to take the meditation there. They also offer meditation courses. I remember because I want there one, one of my friends were taking meditation. And also I, I was also inspired to take meditation there. That's why I remember that location is also very ominous. He is very natural with the sound of the natural waterfalls as well.
Host 53:39
Well, that's what it means yet a gun town is waterfall mountain, right? Yes, yes. So if any meditator finds themselves slightly east of Mandalay city, yes near yet Agon mountain
Zaw Win Htet 53:50
and very hard, not very hard, hard.
Host 53:53
This is a great place to replace, to undertake your meditation sitting while you're here.
Zaw Win Htet 53:57
If I interact, the legations in my ears, it is very hard for the tourists to I will suggest that they should come in the wintertime. Yes, yes.
Host 54:07
Great. Well, thank you so much for making time while you pass through Yangon. This has been such a great talk.
Zaw Win Htet 54:12
Thank you for your invitation as well.
Host 54:14
Yes, thanks.
Zach 54:20
Okay, so it's all part two more interesting content from our guest. What do you think? Yeah, you
Host 54:25
know, for me, this was actually one recording session. Well, it was. It was happened in one night, there was a break in between where we walked out of the studio took, took a drink and chatted and went back in. So it was it was one evening of recording. But as we're breaking it up into these episodes, it's kind of neat to hear the different parts of these two talks. And I think part two is just as compelling as part one. The thing that really struck me I mentioned this in the previous talk just briefly and it's something I think is really worth going into more detail here. And that's this idea of monks going to wild lands and kind of settling them in some way counter intuitively because they're going to these lands to escape the human settlement. So there, they could be seen historically as extending this very human society they're retreating from as the society follows them. I think the lady say it is one of the best examples of that where lady went, What at the time, shinyanga dajia, as he was known, then went into the lady forest, which was this wild, terrifying forest. And then people came to build him a place to live, and then the people building in places to live and serving Him, they needed to live somewhere, and then lay supporters want to live next to him. And now of course, it's a it's a really urban environment. And so I think the question this poses that's really interesting to examine, is to look at how a spiritual dimension occupies a material plane. Yeah, there's
Zach 55:59
actually, there's so much in that, right. I mean, there's aspects of what the forest is like, and what the villages like it's near, because even though they do escape, there's always a village nearby. And then you're right. And so there's this whole evolution that happens over time.
Host 56:14
As I mentioned in the first part of czas talk, this goes back to a fundamental dichotomy You see, even in the Buddha's day where there was those dwelling in villages. And I'll try to pronounce the Pali words here, I might get them somewhat wrong, but I think it is interesting that might get the pronunciation wrong. That is, I think it is interesting, there's actual terms for these descriptions, because they were so significant, even back in the day and throughout all of Buddhist history in all of Buddhist countries, this is something you find and this is something that we are also finding in in Myanmar, and then sauce talk. So those dwelling in villages where gamma vaci, and those dwelling in the forest where aurania vaci. So you have gamma vaci in the village and aranya vaci in the forest. This is the Academy. And just as I quoted scholar from last talk, I want to quote another one here. This is a Mendelssohn, who wrote a book called the state in songa. think it was in the 60s, he was one of the very early Western scholars of Burma. And he wrote, quote, The origin of the forest monk phenomenon is traceable to the early history of asceticism in India. And the ideal home of the Buddhist holy man has always been the solitary retreat in the Himalayas. As countless Giada cattails reiterate almost like a refrain as they tell stories of the Buddha's past lives, and association between the forest life and Orthodox sanctity has always been commonly made, as though only in solitary world renouncing withdrawal, could the search for Buddhist release and enlightenment take place. So Mendelssohn is setting up and talking about the Burmese example. Because Mendelssohn goes into this quite a bit and stayed in Sangha. That there's always been this sense that on one hand, monks are serving society, but in to serve society, they have to be dwelling in villages, but on the other hand, they're also trying to escape the constructs and conditions of civilization. And to do that to do that is these Giada, cattails have told us, they're living alone in the Himalayas, or a deep in some forest. And so this tension has always existed and za talks about it here as well. And something that I think is interesting to explore in some more detail.
Zach 58:32
Right? Well, it's interesting, it's like, there's this dichotomy, but it developed over time, right? Because in the beginning there, there was just the aesthetic idea in India of wandering, right and not really having a base, you know, and over time, so in the beginning, there were no there were no monasteries, there were no places for a monk to land other than just the common places where all the different traditions ascetic wanders, would then gather, you know. So then it's interesting over time, I think there's a drift that happens towards the development of a being civilized, not only that civilization follows the punks out into the forest, but then some of the monks choose then to actually stay in civilization rather than out on the fringe.
Host 59:17
Yeah, right. And the tension is also in kind of, what is your role as a monastic in wearing the robes what what is what duties are you fulfilling if, if you're dwelling in the village, then you're seeing to the orthodoxy and the civil duties and you're hearing over different things that are happening in people's lives in the towns. If you're living in the forest, then you're dedicating yourself probably to some kind of intensive practice or video or do tank, you know, following a very strict set of rules for living in nature. But of course, the interesting thing is that even if you're living deep in the forest, so if you're if you're not a Buddhist monk, and you're living deep in the forest You can kind of live however you want, you can store food, you can hunt animals, you can you can live as you like, if you're just some hermit that's living there, but because of the vineya this this monastic code that monks have to follow, even a monk living in the depth of a forest in a dense forest can't be so isolated, that he can have some kind of daily contact with villagers who just assured that he has a daily sustenance. And, and so whether or not a monk is living in deep forest, or dwelling in a village or city and civilization, he can never be so far removed, that he doesn't have some kind of contact with some aspect, even a very loose or rural or rustic aspect of civilization.
Zach 1:00:44
That's right, there was never I mean, it seems an intrinsic in the scriptures in the in the Dhamma. And the vineya, that there's, there's never a separation. It's there's a there's a seclusion, but the seclusion is on the fringe of and, and within availability to people. So that interaction between the community and the monk, even if you are seeking seclusion is still there, you're never cut off. A lot of those rules are in the video are to prevent isolation, you know, so you can't grow your own food or hot, you can't do those things. You can't even grow food, you can't cook for yourself, you know, all these kinds of things. They're all set up, like actual food you cannot store even even overnight unless it's, there's a few exceptions. But otherwise, these rules are set up for that exact purpose.
Host 1:01:37
Right. And as you talk about there not being this clear demarcation there. It's not it's also like this is not a sect, it's not like you go into a certain order. And you're either going to live a life in a village or live a life in a forest. And there's some examples of very famous Burmese monks in the 19th and 20th century, who were one kind of monk and then developed into another. So if you want to take the example of a city dwelling monk, or a town dwelling monk, who then who, who spends much of his time first in civilization and then goes to live d by himself, you can look at town pilares. He was a 18th century monk who was one of the most respected royal monastics in the age and he lived in royal sanction monasteries, wherever the capital was. And after he got somewhat admonished by a monastic friend for spending too much time, teaching and being with people of civilization, he retreated into a very remote place in the sunshine hills, and deep into the forest is living by himself. And, and so shifted from one kind of more civilized locale into something much more rural and rustic, you also have the opposite example, you can have a hermit who's living deep in the forest and not contacting anyone, and then comes out to teach the people and if you want to look at an example of that, look no further than mahasi seda or Webb who say it to monks that were deep, deep in the forest and on their own and doing their secluded practice, and then took on the call to come and to be public and to teach others and to adjust to a more civilized and structured format. So there's, it's not like someone is certainly they're handy monks that are more one than the other for their whole life. But there could also be monks that develop in one way, and then go on to another kind of practice at another stage in their life.
Zach 1:03:42
So yeah, that's interesting. In both those anecdotes, it's not it doesn't seem like the monks in the center are choosing one over the other as superior in an overall way, but more like, you know, out of balance, you know, then there can be a benefit to to doing the other, you know, someone who spent too much time alone maybe needs some of that interaction to I mean, well, there could be all kinds of reasons a monk might, might leave the forest, you know, one he may have like, gained something and then have an inspiration to share and to help people. And the other one, you know, may need to develop more and because it does seem to me, like you could spend time, anywhere, if you're around other learned people learning and that could happen in a village or city. And then at some time, you know, the, there needs to be self practice and development of practice, you know, so there's, there's development of other things as well like learning chanting and all these and all the things that are expected of a monk you know, learning the vinyasa, for example. So that could be in the forest with a group of people that wouldn't be so secluded or it could be in a village or in a city, but then you know, there is seclusion recommended at certain times. So, so yeah, this this more strong dichotomy between the two, essentially I'm not sure how that developed, you know, I that sounds like some kind of Defilement creeping into the whole situation rather than just seeing the benefit of both sides and discerning when it's time, which is sounds like in the cases you brought up was more the case, but having that discernment to you know, to choose between the two, you know, it seems like that it has become more contentious, it seems like some kind of Defilement some kind of pride has developed into some kind of, you know, some kind of some kind of tension between, you know, some kind of identification with, you know, a certain group and then a contention between intention between this group and that group.
Host 1:05:45
And to go even further into the nuance of real examples in Burmese monastic history of how a monk might do different things at different times according to his needs and his development. In the case of Moni and said this was the most famous monastic disciple of Lady seda, quoting from Oxford Sado who was describing advice that lady had given to Moni and saya. He said that quote, he should study for 10 years, then teach for another 10 years, after which he should become a forest dweller for 10 years. However, after 10 years of teaching, if he did not choose to become a forest dweller, he usually took a twin role by continuing as a teacher and at the same time becoming an administrator or Abbot. So end quote, I should say. So in looking at this development schedule, that lady laid out to Monia, and at least according to the understanding of Oxford, say it, you have this period of like study and teaching more in the academic sphere and then removing yourself totally from that theoretical into the intellectual knowledge and just living alone in the forest by yourself kind of applying it. And then, after applying it and living alone, like that, maybe rising to be a master of both worlds of power, Yachty and potty potty together. However, he does note, if he does not want to become a forest dweller, if he doesn't want to leave dwelling in the villages to dwell in the forest, then he just stays and becomes an administrator. Great sad. But that's indeed what Moni and Ada did. He studied and taught for many, many years in an academic and intellectual world. And then following his master lady said his advice, he went deep into the forest and lived alone for 10 years, it was a he was really a recluse, a hermit in a monastic sense. And then after that decade passed, he then became this great teacher and master and one of the great 20th century monks, that was a master of both these worlds. And so that's another case study of looking at how different stages of development you're taking on these, these different modes of whether you're dwelling in villages or in forests.
Zach 1:08:05
Yeah, that's a little surprising, actually. I mean, it does seem to reflect an attitude that that exists more in the modern era. And I don't mean just like, you know, these decades, I mean, you know, maybe the last two centuries or so, I, I wonder if I wonder if the Buddha would approve of that same schedule, you know, like 20 years dedicated to theory and studying and, and then teaching, and before, before going and doing personal development. Right,
Host 1:08:33
right. And to follow up on the irony of a monk escaping civilization and then later bringing it there's this great quote by Webb Hussain, where he once told His disciples, quote, If you wish to be popular, don't advertise, just practice the meditation I've shown you, then you'll have to go into hiding and quote, so another one. In other words, like if you go if you're a monk who goes in retreats in the forest, and is working really hard and developing and really on the path and, and advancing spiritually, by virtue of advancing spiritually, you're going to get attention, you're going to get disciples, you're going to get popularity and so that you basically have to go deep deep into hiding, to avoid becoming a monk dwelling in the towns as you're still on your practice schedule.
Zach 1:09:24
I think that's true even today, at least from what I've observed. When you live in the forest. People come to check you out. The village headmaster, and some other people will always come, you know, to see you know, who you are, what you're up to. And if they find you, very first, just to be like a reasonable monk, a good month, at least well behaved a monk then. Yeah, then they actually start to ask more questions, you know, so if you're not just one of those wandering monks are wandering because you got kicked out of your monastery, but you're actually you know, really, you it's like It's like there's no mediocre watering monks like here, you're either really naughty monk, it's perceived or you're a really good monk. So if they, if you're not really not a monk, then they start kind of looking more closely at you to see whether like maybe, maybe he's enlightened, maybe he's a really special monk. So just because of that lifestyle, they're in our heart, or it could be in our heart.
Host 1:10:20
And this is certainly true today. But I think it was interesting to look at how this manifested in older times when you had a royal court, because of course, there's no more royal court in Myanmar that was dissolved by the British. But during the day of the Royal Court and the Burmese King, you would have these great monks who would retreat deep into, you know, often the Saigon hills or some other forested land. And then the whole royal court progression, would trek out to the middle of this forest to find this great monk and to make merit by offering some kind of, you know, some kind of great offering in the forest. And of course, you have this, this whole entourage that's going with them. And I remember being in the sunshine hills at one point and walking these, there's these amazing footpaths that are built, just stones that are built into the, into the hillsides and I was with preK camiseta. And he pointed out that if you look in the middle of these inlaid stones, there's kind of a depression. And that depression indicates hundreds of years of ley supporters docking on from from the Riverside, from the rural capital, they take their boats, and they they dock on the river and the pine hills. And then they walk up these, these these inlaid stones, and that there is a depression in the middle of the stone from 1000s of people over hundreds of years, walking right in the middle. And that was just an amazing story in history to witness because it was like, you know, I'm walking in the footsteps of these royal processions, who came to the sky and hills to find these great monks hidden in the forest and to, to make merit by meeting them and by wanting to, to see them and to learn from them. And these stones are still there today that represent the very civilization that these monks were trying to escape. And often these kings and royal courts, they would want to take the monks from out of the forest to come back to the Capitol to build them a beautiful luxurious monastery so that they can have all the honors they deserve. And that and give them official and administrative honors while they were doing it, have them teach the people have them, of course, support the right of the king to rule. And often the monks would refuse, you know, they stay in the forest and their their prestige was in any way harm, they were still honored in that way. And the world procession would go back. So a little bit different when there was a Mr. King instead of a president, like we have in modern times.
Zach 1:13:00
Right. And it's interesting. I mean, I imagine when you're standing on those steps, it helps a little bit because it's probably overgrown in those steps aren't used anymore, because of the the bridge, you know, you don't need the boat to cross the river to get to that particular part of the gang to access. But even so, it's it is kind of hard to imagine these days, what it was like then because it's not as deep in the forest as it was like, because as you said, the civilization then tends to follow and then so you know, to, to be able to imagine what it's like you almost have to go visit someone in the forest. And on top of that, like remembering that how, how strong the fear of of uncivilized forest is, there's the normal, like, I think a lot of people are afraid of like snakes and stuff and, and back then more wild animals are more close. Well, they were in those areas, you know, tigers and elephants and snakes, those kinds of things are all quite common, common dangers. And on top of that, you know, it's a little different. In the West, in the east, there's this pretty strong fear of ghosts. And that made from childhood. So it's just, it's a real thing subjectively in their, in their truth, they and they're just petrified. And it really is something to overcome that so so you know, someone like a king or anyone going out, you know, to being the kind of the first groups to go visit these monks that are so remote is quite something to overcome, in and of itself just to enter into that wild and fearful land.
Host 1:14:40
Yeah, right. It was probably a different world and the monastic the forest monastic life there was also probably very different than the city monks that they were in contact with and had a little less prestige because they were living a bit more of a relaxed life. But on the other hand, so you have these kings, that would Want to come deep into the forest to revere these monks to invite them to come back to the Capitol, we have seen this great merit for the kings, to be able to bring a monk like this back to the Capitol. But of course, for a king, they would benefit by meeting such a monk because it would show that they had the armies and the karma for doing so if they didn't have the appropriate armies and karma for being the king, and for preserving Buddhism, which was really one of the central goals of any bookmarking, they couldn't come in contact with these great monks. And so it showed them as having some kind of divine right to rule that they were able to come in contact with, with people like that. But what's interesting is when the Kings would go out to meet these forest monks, they might go for a couple of very different reasons. So one reason they might go would be to really honor and revere them, and to also show that they have the appropriate built up, armies and karma to be able to come in contact with that to show their role was divine. But they also might go to meet these forest monks to make sure that they were really practicing as they were supposed to. Because if you're a king was preserving Buddhism, and then you have these forest monks that are doing God knows what, and proclaiming themselves monks in line with the Buddha, but they're actually practicing alchemy or something really wild or interpreting vinyasa in some strange way for that to happen in a Bomar Buddhist kingdom is a sign that the king is not really in control of what's going on. And so in many cases, either the king or the advisor or the some some royally appointed monks would go and find these forest monks that were practicing very, very severely and, and rustically. And they would just give them a series of tests to make sure that they were really in line with what the Buddha taught, because if they weren't, then they would have to be defrocked, they would have to be forcibly disrobe because just as meeting a forest monk who's practicing very seriously, and is having very high spiritual attainment, just as that as good for a king, who wants to show that he's preserving Buddhism, it would be equally bad on the flip side to find a bunch of forest monks that were practicing against the vineya. And were were proclaiming that they were so there's this kind of these kind of two sides of the coin that would lead a Mr. King to want to be interested in what the forest monks were doing and kind of track them down and have some kind of contact.
Zach 1:17:34
That's interesting, I never really considered that the second of those two. And I think it's also interesting. I mean, this isn't really part of the thread of what we're talking about, but but how that ever came to be that it King anyway would be so tied in. So tied into the, the monastic order that they actually had sort of a responsibility and then powers you know, the whole idea of de fracking a monk is, is not anywhere that I've found in the original Buddhist teaching. As far as I know, a monk can only be disrobed by himself. There's only five ways that I know of, I mean, excluding death, the four defeats and then the monk or nun, themselves choosing to step down. So that's just a side note. That just came up while I was listening to what you were saying.
Host 1:18:23
Yeah, I mean, throughout Burmese history, there were a lot of examples of the king. purifying the order is what they called it finding some discrepancy in some, some order some teaching some orthodoxy. Well, this isn't exactly right, this interpretation slightly wrong. And we need to reorder everyone so that they come from this order, or this order died out, we need to go to Sri Lanka, Thailand and get a monk who knows this. And we ordain in this way. And anyone who doesn't do it isn't going to be an official monk. And it was also a way that the king would show how much he cared about protecting the sauce and preserving it. And, and also his power and being able to, to make sure the monks were in line and that they were practicing in line with how the current contemporary society was seeing the the proper interpretation, whatever that was. And that's why going back to the last episode for those who listened to it, that's why that dama restoration was so important, because in monywa, that small group of monks who cared about textual accuracy and cared about going back to the original sutas to be able to make decisions and interpretations. Once that sect one out, then anyone who wanted to be a monk had to accept that new Orthodoxy is it became established.
Zach 1:19:46
Yeah, I wonder what the actual intentions are. I could see I could see it going either way, I could see a king who really is interested genuinely in, in preserving the Dhamma and yet, and By nature, they're powerful. So they can basically get done whatever they want to get done. And the other hand, I can also see that it's, you know, the Buddha didn't set it up that the king of a land would have any, any power or control over any part of the Sangha. So it's interesting how that got woven in. And that could be a power grab as well. So, you know, I feel two different ways. You know, sometimes I hear parts of it, and I feel quite inspired that a king or a line of Kings think it's important. On the other hand, taking that power as their own as something is, I'm not sure where that comes from, I don't see anywhere where that actually was an idea that came from the Buddha and the Buddhist teachings.
Host 1:20:44
Yeah, and I think that when you look at this, there's a way to either be kind of, kind of naively faithful on one hand, and there's also a way to be cynically negative and I don't think it's one or the other, you know, you can be I think these things are intertwined. to such a degree that is looking at it with the wrong perspective, to try to see which one applies, for example, you could be really naively faithful and look at it as Oh, these markings and preserve the Buddhist teachings, and they've done, they've been so careful, you know, generation after generation and golden land. And this, the sausage has been preserved, and in this kind of, unchanging order, from the time that the teachings were brought to this land. And, you know, I think that's, that's going a bit too far in terms of how history actually works. But I think you could also be a bit too negatively cynical, you could also say that no king personally cared about really wanting to preserve or advance the sosna and these were all just kind of naked political power hungry moves, that they wanted to preserve power, and they were using the cultural and religious means to be able to do so. And I think that it's not one or the other, I think that that there definitely would be a true and genuine wish of these Bomar kings who are brought up in a Buddhist faith and brought up knowing the value of the monastic order and a triple gem and, and and of that life and wanting to have the faith and encourage the faith in their people while at the same time being human and having defilements and wanting to retain power and having to make hard decisions and having to be political. So I think these things really went hand in hand to some degree.
Zach 1:22:28
I get your point. I'm not sure I 100% agree. I think perhaps you're a little too gratuitous. On the less good intention side. I think some of I think we get different examples with different kings and you know that they have their own characters and different levels of interest in sosna and, and their own levels of defilements. So I think we have examples of all that. So, but it's an interesting topic. You know, it's still something I observe today and here in Thailand as well like the the the involvement of the monarchy in the end the government in the in what's going on with the Tsonga?
Host 1:23:03
Yeah, yeah, right. Absolutely. And you know, for these two episodes, we really have zada Thank you he brought in so much of a curiosity and excitement and investigation that these talks with you and me Zack have been different than they've been with other people, because we've just kind of used and rather than talking about a story, specifically or our feelings or relation to it, we've really used his enthusiasm and details as a jumping off point to explore and further that conversation, which you know, when he gets when this episode comes out, and he listens to I can't help but think it's gonna put a smile on his face.
Zach 1:23:40
Right, I feel these, these last two dialogues with you. In regards to his interview I've been I've been really engaged in him. The topics are really interesting. So it was, yeah, and even on this one, you know, if there's a whole lot more to say, but you know what, that we can save that for another day or people you know, people can do that on their own?
Host 1:24:02
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, well, great to chat and looking forward to next time,
Zach 1:24:07
right. Just a reminder to listeners when we, when we post these things, there is an opportunity to discuss things in the comment thread, so feel free to do so. And yeah, thanks.
Host 1:24:22
I'll be honest, not only is asking for donations, my least favorite thing in the world, I find it pretty uncomfortable as well. Let's face it after prioritizing my own meditation practice, my main passion is learning about these inspiring Burma Dhamma tales and finding a way to share them with a wider audience so that many more can appreciate them. My passion is not at all the unavoidable administrative stuff, and certainly not the fundraising part of it. But unfortunately, we do have a minimum basic cost to keep our engine humming. So it's necessary for me to take a moment for that least favorite and uncovered Triple thing and ask sincerely for your generosity and supporting our mission. If you found value in today's show and think that other meditators might as well, we ask that you take a moment to consider supporting our work. Thank you for taking the time to hear our spiel. And with that, it's off to work on the next episode. 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