Transcript: Episode 23, Media Corner: The Discovery of Mindfulness
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Carl Stimson, which appeared on November 10, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
Thank you for joining us on an audio journey for the next couple hours. In addition to this podcast medium, we also have three different blogs available on our website that we invite all listeners to check out. One is the Insight Myanmar blog, which gives behind the scenes information on past podcast episodes, and sneak previews where we're going. Another is the Burma Dharma blog, which dates back over a decade now and features all kinds of information about Dhamma practice in Myanmar. The third is the Myanmar pilgrimage blog, which goes into options for meditators looking to visit the special Dhamma sites in the country. All three can be found on our main homepage Insight myanmar.org. That's Insight Myanmar one word i en Si, gh T, NY A and M AR. But for now, let's stick with the earbud option and get onto today's show.
Carl Stimson 01:13
Da da da,
Host 01:14
da da da da that is. Okay, so this is a new kind of podcast format that we're trying we thought about doing a format called book review where we're able to look at some Burma Dhamma books and talk about those books through the prism of our experience as meditators and in the context of practice in Myanmar. And this is kind of in the on the backburner. Not really sure when we were going to do it. And then the idea came up to try it with Carl Stimson. So not only is this a new podcast format for us, it's also a first podcast appearance by Carl is an avid podcast listener, but your first time being on the hot seat. So welcome from Japan. And thanks for trying this out.
Carl Stimson 02:28
Yeah, thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.
Host 02:30
Yeah, yeah. So we're gonna get into these three books you read that are all by meditators and describing meditative experiences. And Myanmar plays a role in all of them somewhat. Before we get into that, I think it's probably good to take a moment to reflect on on our relationship and friendship. We're not just two guys, we've known each other for more than half our life went to college together when studied abroad in Europe, ended up going to Japan on a sister city exchange. And I think what's interesting for our listeners, especially is that you could say we found dama together, you know, we came from came from a background of being young kids and college and exploring the town, Tokyo, Roppongi. And then I went to have a passion, of course, I mean, sn Goenka tradition, and it really changed my life. And a year later, you went through that change. And so I think we've had a really special way of communicating by going through the spiritual experience together from an experience of very much worldly and not spiritual. And often when one person transitions, the community, or their friends or their family often is, is not going through the same thing at the same time with them. So I think it's been interesting for us to have gone through some of those similar experiences similar times.
Carl Stimson 03:44
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it can be very alienating to start a meditation practice or, you know, get into Buddhism. And we'll talk about that with the books that that we're going to talk about. And I think it's been great to have a good friend to go through that with I mean, I think both of us it's been almost 20 years since those first courses, and we're pretty settled in terms of, you know, our identities as meditators, or at least more settled than we were back in the early 2000s. But, yeah, there's definitely some difficult transition times I think, you know, people write these kind of books we're gonna talk about or about people's, like, early experiences with meditation, and those tend to be kind of inspiring stories and, you know, maybe kind of adventures like, you know, venturing into it dangerous and difficult land, but, you know, at the end there, they're inspiring, and they're, you know, people find, you know, a lot of help and a lot of truth from these experiences. But you know, they also entail a major transition in life that that sometimes is not easy.
Host 04:45
Yeah, and I think that's interesting because when you look at making that transition in life, you're you're often leaving behind the familiar for the unfamiliar and taking a bit of a hero's journey, which always involves some fear and lack of stability and questioning who You are and how you fit in as we'll get into. And I think that also relates to the journey we've gone to in real time, in a similar way, because we've, we've both in similar ways gone from the familiar to the unfamiliar, and yet, we are not unfamiliar to each other. And so it's been kind of a sounding board that we've been able to relate as we go through these journeys, even though it's not the exact time, it's something similar. And to go through that with someone that has the background of, you know, going out all night partying or talking about something else entirely. And then being able to transition to this is definitely a kind of a bedrock of familiarity in a practice, which is, which involves something very new and leaving behind, you know, where you come from.
Carl Stimson 05:43
Yeah, definitely. And I think it's interesting, we'll talk about this as well. But that experience might be something that happens to fewer and fewer people, as you know, meditation and mindfulness becomes more accepted in at least Western society. Like we'll talk about two of the people, the authors will talk about were were hippies, and, you know, when they started doing meditation, it was, you know, very, very rare for someone in American society to meditate. And that was, you know, quite quite a while ago, 40 years ago, or more, and when we started in the early 2000s, it was rare, you know, not as rare but still pretty rare and was a big transition. But now, you know, someone comes up to you and says, they've started meditating. It's, you know, a lot of places, that's not a really unusual thing, I think, you know, really embracing it. And going deep into it is still probably a pretty dramatic, not traumatic, maybe traumatic, depending on the person, but definitely dramatic experience that can be still pretty discombobulating in someone's life. But I think it's becoming easier and easier for people to just, you know, go from not meditating to meditating. And, and that's great. Overall, I think it's really like a good a good sign for society.
Host 06:53
Yeah, right. And of course, it also depends on the community that you're in. I remember when I transitioned back to being in the US, and we'll talk about this later as well. But I remember being very kind of out of sorts, and then going to Boulder for a weekend, Boulder, Colorado, and being in a grocery line and hearing the cashier and the person in front of me talking about the vibrations that they were both experiencing at that moment. I was like, Okay, this is this is probably a boulder thing. But this is not a, like a usual experience when you come back from a meditative environment to the US.
Carl Stimson 07:21
Yeah, Boulder is definitely a safe space for those kind of people.
Host 07:25
Yeah, yeah. So let's, let's get into it. But before we get into the actual books, I want to talk a little bit about the process. And so it should be mentioned that what we're talking about is largely based on an essay that you wrote, that was published on the blog Insight, Myanmar, I was the editor for that piece. So we worked on that for a few weeks to get it to completion. And a lot of our talk is based on that essay. So we definitely encourage people to read that we'll be posting the link, but I wanted to check in with you. And like what was that process like in those three weeks of bringing the essay from draft to completion form?
Carl Stimson 07:58
Yeah, it was a fascinating process. I mean, I read the three books in in pretty short succession. So you know, my mind was already kind of attuned to, you know, looking for similarities, and you know, different kinds of themes that they all touched on. And, you know, they have some very major similarities that run kind of through them. And I had also written a couple other kind of book reviews like this for your previous blog. And so I was kind of, you know, in the mode of, well, maybe I'll write another one for these books. And so I had some ideas, but when I got to putting them down, you know, on the Word document, it was a lot more difficult. You know, one thing it was three books at a time trying to weave that together. And also, realizing that there was more to this, just three books telling the story, like there was there was some really personal thoughts I had for this. And the only really way to convey that was to kind of, you know, tell something about my personal story as well. So that, and that was a really key element in developing the final version of the essay.
Host 08:57
Yeah, and actually, that was the next thing I wanted to ask that when I read the first draft, one of the initial pieces of feedback that I had was to make the writing much more personal. I felt that after giving such a deeply personal review of what were basically three autobiographical narratives, the reader needed to know who you were and all of this, and I encouraged you and you did become kind of a fourth character in the saga, where you were able to compare your spiritual journey and the time era in which it took place to theirs and to the time era today. So I'm also wondering what that experience was like for you, deciding to make that shift from just being a book reviewer to really exposing yourself and if it felt personal or vulnerable, exciting, risky, liberating, fearful, kind of what was coming up as you as you made the decision to to take that step.
Carl Stimson 09:46
Yeah, it was I had some trepidation for sure. When people read it, they'll maybe say, well, like geez this guy doesn't really reveal a whole lot and you know, I don't have a big like online presence in social media and things like that. So I'm I'm not accustomed to You know, a lot of sharing. So it was kind of a step to do that. And, you know, I felt good about it in the end, I think, you know, it's, to me, it's a fascinating process, you know, what people go through in life when they, when they encounter meditation from a Western standpoint, really, from any standpoint, but, you know, Western standpoint, in particular, because that's what I, you know, came through, and in how that is playing out over time, in two ways, like in time, like throughout a person's life, like in, in, you know, starting off when you first encounter it, and then, you know, going through the kind of honeymoon phase, and then how, what happens afterwards, which, you know, is equally interesting, but less talked about, and then in time, in terms of, you know, years and the age, and, you know, all three of these books were basically from the 70s, which is, you know, obviously a very different time than right now. And when I was kind of in a, a young meditator was in the early 2000s, which is was its own, you know, different time, and so to kind of think about how all those factors, you know, influence a person's experiences is really fascinating. And I, you know, I hope that, you know, me sharing my experiences, which is kind of bridging a gap, you know, I brought in my experiences as a kind of older meditator, someone who's who's, you know, been in the game for a longer time than, than the kind of timeframes that these books cover. So that that is kind of, you know, bridging a gap. And then, you know, talking about my experiences in, you know, 2000 2000 pins, which is quite different from the 70s, or 60s 70s, and 80s, which are covered by these books.
Host 11:37
Yeah, and something I think that's so fascinating about describing that process is that when you're involved in meditation, and especially when you're, you're in intensive meditation, so you're not like living a relaxed life of a monk or nun who has time to develop and you're, you're learning vinyasa, and skin, maybe skills of living in the forest and learning about the local culture that you're in and, and you, you don't really have like an intensive timeframe, you can kind of relax into the Dhamma, and learn things gradually as they come. But when you're in, when you're a householder in an intensive meditation retreat, you're feeling yourself as a yogi, and you're also getting the instruction to maximize the best use of your time by just practice, practice, practice. And when you bring that mentality to bear, sometimes you don't have that metacognition of the lifecycle, or the process or the stages that you go through. And so as you're going through different stages, you're sometimes not having the understanding of the mentality of what the cycle and process is, that is not an unusual cycle for many people from this background, that are that are practicing in this way. And just focusing on that micro vision of the practice and continuing and pushing ahead without the bigger overall context in which it occurs. And so to me, one of the most interesting things about these kind of conversations, and also about not just the books, but the way that you approach these books, is that it's looking in a wider point of view from what is the what is the cycle and the context in which this this intensive practice is taking place, and which probably some generalities can be in common threads can be applied to different meditators going through through similar stages as they go through that process. And it you know, just a few days ago, we were talking to a senior meditation teacher who's a generation above us and as has been practicing for several more decades. And he gave the comment that this kind of way of talking about Dhamma was wholly new for him, he had never really talked with his Dharma friends in the past, in in this kind of way, about the, the greater metacognitive features of the the processes that you go through, and not just the micro view. So that's, I think, that's also exciting to look at those stages.
Carl Stimson 13:53
Yeah, and I think there's really very little on that out in the literature, you know, there in my own, you know, reading I've haven't come across a lot of, you know, people who talk about these kind of, like, you know, the cycle of commitment, I guess you'd call it to, to meditation or to Buddhism and how that works. And, you know, there's, there's some early stuff, you know, like, like the books that we'll talk about in the first stages, and then there's, there's some books by monks that talk about lifelong dedication, but, you know, most of us I think, are householders. And we are, you know, just kind of going through a process that can be kind of lonely because you know, there's there's you can talk to friends or not, you know, it depends on the crowd you're in but, you know, in terms of, of books or media or things like that, I think there's there's not a whole lot out there. I remember in my own you know, past I can't remember what they call themselves now, they used to call themselves like the dark night of the soul organization or something, it's a created an organization, maybe it would be helpful to have that name on him, but they, you know, they talked about people who are, you know, going, starting meditation, but then coming into like, serious difficulty with their practices, not not just like, you know, you know, feeling stuck and stagnated, but just, you know, serious mental illnesses and, you know, really kind of traumatic things happening to them, at least internally. And for me to hear that was was kind of it was kind of the first time I'd ever heard that talk talks about, you know, when you, most meditation teachers don't, you know, talk about the good things that happen from practice and what the benefits are. And if there's dangerous, they talk about, it's the dangers of not practicing and not, you know, kind of adhering to the teaching. So, you know, to kind of hear someone talk about, you know, hey, this path is not easy, and it doesn't always go in a straight line is, for me really comforting in a way like, you know, it seems like kind of a scary thing to admit. But to know that there's other people out there that are, you know, struggling with it and talking about it in a way that I can relate to is, is to me, a really valuable and so I hope, you know, yes, they can be a small contribution to that.
Host 15:59
Yeah. And it has to be said to that, it's not just that the writers wrote about this process, or, or some of these stages. And in some ways, I'd argue they didn't in many ways, that was your analysis and critique, and bringing that to it, and the editing processes that we went through, and when you started to make yourself a fourth character, and then you talked about the modern day, relevancy, that these ideas actually went more into the review than the books themselves. But it's quite interesting to think about how you've observed that meditation teachers haven't brought this to you. And when you think about the very, very recent development of formalized meditation in the West, it's all been this grand experiment. And, and in some ways, I think the people themselves admit they didn't know exactly what they were doing, they were giving it their best shot, they were learning as they went along, and making the best choices that they could. But many of these people were so enthusiastic and grateful and motivated about what their own practice was doing. They just with all that enthusiasm and care, they wanted to bring it to other people. And so these aren't, in many cases, this isn't the example of, you know, dedicated lifelong monks who've been in robes for most of their lives, and, you know, have integrated the Dhamma, like deeply into their their entire beans and societal interactions, but are just bringing the burst of this practice. And that's why, as I as I mentioned, a few minutes ago, even this very senior of a passionate meditation teacher, who was probably involved in some of the early days of bringing it overseas, from from the east himself is starting to realize, boy, I haven't thought about it in this way. So as the Dhamma gets more established here, and the mindfulness movement starts to spread, these are really interesting things to start to look at what they are and understand them.
Carl Stimson 17:39
Yeah, and of course, there's two sides to the coin, I mean, the, you know, the monks who have been in robes their whole lives, they have the benefit of having, you know, senior monks who, you know, they themselves had senior monks above them who, you know, are there to maintain the tradition and maintain stability. But, you know, there's also a sense of freedom and not having, you know, older people or older practitioners there to like, kind of tell you what to do. And then and that's kind of what makes mindfulness in the West, so exciting, or what it has been, it's definitely maturing every year and getting more stabilized and things like that. But yeah, I mean, I think there's benefits to both ways. But you know, being a Westerner who encountered meditation in the early 2000s, you know, I went through it, you know, not having a lot of reference points into what I was going through. And, you know, I think that's probably changing, but it's an interesting, definitely an area that interests me why we should introduce the books. Yep, let's get right to it. So the first one, we could talk about his journey of insight meditation by Eric Lerner. So first off, let's get a basic overview of what happened here. Yeah, so Eric Lerner, the book was published in 1977. I couldn't figure out when he was born, but I think he was in his mid to late 20s. When he was going through these experiences. There's Unfortunately, there's another Eric learner who's also an author who seems to be a little bit more prominent. So when you search for him, all the information leads to that guy. But anyways, I you know, he was a young man when he wrote the book. And it starts off in 1972. Basically, when he takes his first course with Robert Hoover, who was a, I think, some kind of an engineer appointed by sn Goenka to teach Vipassana. And this happened in America. At the time, Lerner was married, but he was also kind of a hippie done some traveling in India and kind of in the hippie community. And he just was really enthusiastic about meditation just had an amazing first course and immediately started looking for a way to go to to India and basically, you know, continue meditating with with Goenka. And initially, I think him and his wife were thinking of going together, but she kind of eventually just, you know, confessed that she just wasn't really into it and that he should go by himself. And there was this really interesting scene in the early room. In the book where he been to his first course, and he was back in, I think, in Boston or in the larger city where he was living, and his wife was kind of into music into musician there at the show, and he was just seeing this kind of bar scene with alcohol and, you know, people just kind of partying and dancing and he had just kind of had a switch go off where he, you know, a few weeks before the course that had been his crowd, and now he was just, you know, seeing that as an empty experience. And it was, I mean, that's an experience I think a lot of people who can relate to just you know, it's it's amazing how quickly you know, you can kind of the veil comes comes off of these experiences with intoxicants and things like that. And for him, it seemed to happen quite quickly. Anyways, he quickly you know, gets into India, and then you know, sits a number of courses in India visits, well Gaya eventually finds his way to Sri Lanka, or sorry, excuse me, for he goes there he goes to Yangon. We're Rangoon I think it was called in those days in Burma. And it's a course at the International meditation Center, the center that Luba can be found in a book and is no longer live at the time. I think he died in 1971. He was just, you know, one or two years after his passing, he sits there. And then he goes on to Sri Lanka, where he sits at a monastery basically, not really taking a course just kind of sitting in isolation for several months, goes through some pretty intense experiences, goes back to IMC and yeah, gone for last course, and then comes back to the United States where he kind of completes his transition. He, you know, his book basically is him being extremely enthusiastic about meditating and just incredibly intense about it like isolation. And really, you're trying to meditate as many hours as he could at a time. And then when he finally he hasn't experienced at the end that kind of deflates him, and kind of a good way, he was kind of, you know, maybe just too puffed up in terms of ego and an intensity. And he find himself back in the United States, not really sure where to where he's going to go. And he The, the PostScript is not that long, but he does kind of get settled into a more, you know, calm existence in in a more rural area in western Massachusetts.
Host 22:24
So yeah, that's a that's a good description of what went down. And I was curious about one thing. So in your review of the book, you mentioned how much you appreciate the descriptive language that learner use to describe the intensity of his meditative experiences. And, you know, truth be told, if you're going to spend a book writing about intensive meditation one after the other, you'd better learn to write pretty well, because you know, that's the meat and substance of your book, aside from some background of personal interactions, and travel and whatnot. In contrast to that, earlier, you had written in the essay that there was little more tedious than hearing a meditator describe his or her experiences on the cushion. And so I was wondering what made learner story and writing so compelling and stand out from the other kind of meditator telling their meditative experience on the cushion, which you find much more tedious and cringe worthy?
Carl Stimson 23:13
Yeah, I maybe it's a personal preference. Maybe other people like to hear about other people's meditation experiences, but, you know, I think it's a, it's really difficult to, you know, put an what is really almost always a purely emotional experience into words. I mean, when we write things, one of the first rules of writing is, is show show, not tell. So if you want to get a message across, in, you know, whether it's a book or a TV show you, you know, you don't have a character, just explain it, you have them go through an experience that, that kind of has that message. And with meditation, it's hard to do that, because you know, you're just sitting there with your eyes closed, usually, and, and just things swirling around in your mind, that might be the most intense experience of your entire life. But, you know, when when you describe it, you know, in a narrative just kind of sounds, you know, frankly, boring in a lot of ways. I think learner is probably the best writer of the three he is, in my opinion. And he did go on to be a writer. He's written several books, fiction and nonfiction. He's been a screenwriter. So I think his talents as a writer, I think he was still quite young as a writer at the time, but that is that is part of it. And also he goes through some pretty kind of astounding experiences. I mean, even you know, I've done a fair amount of meditating and in courses and things like that, and had some intense experiences, but he he has some pretty wild stories and it's definitely fun to read them one of them in Sri Lanka, which I quote at length in the, in the essay is, you know, he is just shuts his eyes and he just feels that he's kind of in this hellscape we're just surrounded by demons and we're just lurking everywhere and he just just completely terrifying and you know, that's pretty interesting, in and of itself, but then he says he opens his eyes and he sees these demons Just, you know, sitting in front of them on the bed and around him everywhere and, and, you know, he just doesn't know what to do. So he just shuts his eyes and, and continues to meditate and you know, wow, that's, that's pretty Wow. And there's some other stories of him meditating and just, you know, huge thunderstorms with rain. And that kind of really synching up with what he's going through internally all that stuff, which is, you know, quite exciting. And one of the other books that describes meditating a fair amount, but just kind of, you know, it's pretty mild, and it just, you know, says, felt peaceful or felt, you know, intense and things like that, but it's not really focused on the actual experience of meditator. So, yeah, he did, he did a great job, just kind of bringing the actual, especially in these really intense kind of, you know, make or break moments in meditation, which I think a lot of people will done retreats are familiar with.
Host 25:51
Right. And I guess when you're talking about the more cringe worthy experiences of hearing a meditator tell a story, it might be more in the line of like a first time student completing the 10 day course, and then meticulously having to tell people on day 10 every experience he went through on every day and what he felt about it, or someone you know, now, with the advent of YouTube, someone just doing a selfie, turning the camera around, and experiences that were incredibly personal and important to them, describing in detail what they went through and assist, it's hard to follow along with that. And that's quite quite a different landscape than someone who is leaving everything behind the 70s to live alone, or nearly alone at a Sri Lankan monastery and is confronting literal demons and in writing about it in very eloquent and professional ways as he's describing what he went through.
Carl Stimson 26:40
Yeah, for sure. And I, you know, I don't want to rip on these people who you know, to talk about their experiences, or post them on YouTube too much. I mean, I definitely understand that, you know, that your first meditation course, or you know, even your third, or fifth or 10th can be one of the most profound, difficult experiences of your life. And that, you know, is certain, certainly something that people want to express and share with other people. But I do think it's a it's a hard thing to do. It's not like, you know, being in a war or, you know, participating in some kind of sports championship, where, you know, there's a real narrative you can follow, you know, it's a harder thing to depict. And, you know, I think that's one of the strengths of learners book.
Host 27:20
Yeah. And, you know, thank God, there was no YouTube or anything else in 2001 2002, when we took our courses, because, you know, definitely speaking personally, I was one of those students after the first couple of courses, and I just didn't have a media bullhorn to be able to project my story. So today, first time, meditators aren't so lucky.
Carl Stimson 27:41
Yeah, well, I'm thankful there wasn't social media around in my youth for a lot of other reasons as well.
Host 27:46
Right? Right. So learner gives vivid detail and describing a number of things in his book, he describes his mindset, his travel in Asia, in the 70s experiences under different meditation teachers. But we don't really learn that much about his life before, aside from this marriage that's in the process of failing, nor after. And what's interesting about that is that so much of the way that you approach this, this essay that you wrote was about one's full story and trajectory in the meditative experience. And this is the briefest snapshot of the three of them, I would argue at least. So how did that leave you as a reader feeling that you were led on this brief and intense spiritual journey and somewhat travelogue but not really know the full range of a story?
Carl Stimson 28:30
Yeah, well, he gives it a tiny PostScript at the end, which is really quite small, and you just kind of you're left feeling like, you know whom I wonder how this goes, because it's been such a book of transformations, like he's gone from, you know, a hippie, to a really intense meditator to, you know, married to not married. And then, you know, at the end of the book, he's kind of this calm guy. And I talked about him, like fixing this stone wall in western Massachusetts with a cow next to them. And it's this really kind of peaceful, solid kind of image that he gives. And he goes up to this meditation course, actually, that was taught by Joseph Goldstein, who's quite a well known teacher now. And you know, it has just kind of, you see him as a more mature student at the time. He's not, you know, among the newer students who are just kind of furiously meditating in the hall. He's kind of on the fringes and just more confident and things like that. And it's still you know, it's only I don't know how long after he came back from Asia a year, maybe a little more, but not very long. And you just wonder, like, where did this go? Like, what does he like in five years or 10 years? And there's a little bit online that I found he, you know, at some point, he moves to California, and starts writing other things. So yeah, actually, interestingly enough, he pretty recently published a book about Leonard Cohen who is a you know, fairly famous musician who died fairly recently and they were good friends and good friends through through Zen meditation. And so apparently, learner went on to, you know, I don't know if he left the pasta or what or if he stopped Practicing. It's not clear. But he he definitely developed an interest in Zen and was a part of that community in California. But you know, at the same time, was a householder throughout his life where he's still alive. Rather, I should say, maybe if he's listening, like Hello there, but was a householder Didn't you know and the other book, one of them becomes a monk and another book that becomes like a pretty serious meditation teacher. So you know, it's interesting that he, you know, went on from this really profound experience that was so profound that he wrote a book about it to being a householder that who was involved in meditation, but I guess not, you know, dedicated full time to it, but for sure, it's hard to say definitively because, I don't know, but that sure seems to be the case. And, and that's interesting to me, because it somewhat follows my own trajectory, you know, I had a period of really intensive meditation. And, you know, as I got into middle age in my early 40s, now, that's become a lot less intense, though my interest hasn't dropped. And, you know, I, I know what that has felt like, and I know what it's felt like, and a few other people I've talked to you, but I'm kind of left with wondering, like, you know, how did that go for learner and I wish I kind of knew more about them.
Host 31:08
Right, and you reference towards the end of the book learner comes back to the US and he's struggling with his identity. He's all but being accused of being emasculated by his friends. And you go into your own adjustment and returning from Japan to Montana and your mid 20s. And not just returning to a different culture, because you've been away from American culture for a while at that point. But also coming back with this new identity you're taking on as a meditator. So, how did your experience feel similar to what learning described? Yeah, you know, it
Carl Stimson 31:39
was, it was hard, I think I was less expressive than the learner, you know, I was comfortable talking about my experiences with friends and I was close with, but you know, if I was around other people, I would kind of just, you know, maintain the mode, you know, I didn't change the way I dressed, really, you know, I didn't, I wasn't proselytizing about meditation. And that's how I, you know, I kind of feel my personality made my adjustment a little bit easier. Pretty soon after I came back from from Japan, I got a job as a firefighter, wildland firefighter in Montana for the summer. So I was around a lot of real kind of good old boy, Montana, fellows, you know, young, slightly younger than me at the time, I was in my mid 20s. And a lot of them were in their early 20s. And, you know, real kind of manly men like to hunt, and hike, and, you know, pretty strong physically, and yeah, it was hard to be around them, you know, I just didn't have the same priorities as them are interested in them and things like that. Soon after that, I ended up moving to Hawaii and was in school for Chinese medicine. And that crowd was, you know, really welcoming to the kind of person I was becoming. So that kind of soften my adjustment, I think back to America, but, um, the first year to kind of after that, I think, is really hard. And, you know, it's a real test to your dedication. And it, I think it feels really good if you can pass that test, if you can integrate meditation into your life, and do it in a healthy way. That, you know, as much as possible, maintains relationships from before, I mean, some of them might be toxic, and you cut them out. But if you you're able to integrate that, I think it's, for me, at least, there was a it was a great feeling of achievement. And I get the slightly that impression at the end of learners book, because he's, you know, kind of comes back and he's real skinny. And he's, you know, just doesn't really know who he is. And then, you know, at the end of the book, he's, he's kind of seems really comfortable in his own skin. And I think that's a that's kind of a real crucial phase in people's journeys.
Host 33:41
Right, right. And I think it's that there was a line you wrote in there, that was quite interesting where it was, it was like you, you have this vision and this other way that comes partly through Asian culture and partly through meditation, that there's another way to be a man that you don't have to be aggressive and macho, and this way, this American style of being a man. And yet you you have this intellectual understanding this experiential understanding, but you don't really know who you are, and how you're going to look that way. So it's this awkward period of experimentation of trying to figure out well, I know I don't want to be like I was before. And I know I don't want to be like the model I'm seeing now. But I don't really know what that looks like. So you're what you're really looking at is a lack of integration. And Funny enough, this this came up for me and watching the documentary about Mr. Rogers, because, you know, the the TV personality for children, he did the children's shows. There was just a beautiful comment at the end of that, where I don't remember who it was that was saying it's someone that was associated with the show or a child who grew up, but basically said, like, Mr. Rogers was the only example that I had at that time all around me, that there was another way to be a man that you could be gentle and caring and calm and kind and you could still very much Be a man in that body and That's a different than integrating an Asian culture or, or gender stereotypes or meditation into, into your being. But it's also it just highlights the conditioning of thinking that there's this one way to be and kind of adapting to that even though it's not comfortable. And then when you see that, that that's not the only way, it's a little bit awkward of trying to figure out okay, well, how do I, I kind of got this, but I don't really know how to bring it together and make sense of it and be comfortable in my own skin.
Carl Stimson 35:29
Yeah, it can be extremely awkward, and, you know, difficult to look back on just because of course, you're not going to get it right on the first try. I actually, I did find an interview with learning from quite quite a bit later on, I can't remember when exactly gave it I think in the 2000 sometime, but he, you know, the interviewer asked him about his book he wrote on, you know, meditation and Buddhism. And he, one of the things he says he says, you know, it's good to do it when you're young, because, you know, you don't really mind sounding foolish, or I can't remember exactly how he put it. But, you know, he used the word foolish, and I really related to that, because I, you know, there's, there's kind of this unfortunate consequence that when you're most passionate about something, tends to be when you know the least about it, you know, the first few years as a meditator, you, you're so into it, and you just think it's the greatest thing and you want to tell everybody about it, but you don't really have your identity or your all the thoughts sorted out, and just kind of come across sounding kind of like a fool A lot of times, and then, you know, as you get more comfortable, you don't really feel the need to kind of do that anymore. But so it's just kind of an unfortunate consequence. But you know, still there's there's definitely value in learners book, I think he was more self aware than a lot of people probably more than I am. I mean, he writes kind of critically about himself, he makes himself look, you know, foolish in the moment. And it's, you know, pretty admirable that he has that self awareness, I guess I'd say,
Host 36:56
yeah, it's funny that you, you keep coming back to this word foolish because there was one line that I took out of your essay that I wanted to touch upon. And it's a it's a line where you use the word foolish in relation to learners persona at the time. So you wrote that, I admit to thinking learner came across as impressionable and sometimes foolish, but I'm glad he wrote his book, when the experiences were fresh, and he had the courage to present them honestly. So what was it particularly that you enjoyed about learner being impressionable and sometimes foolish, but reveal, having the courage to reveal and and presented honestly, what was appealing about that style for you?
Carl Stimson 37:37
Well, I mean, in a way, it was kind of a trip down memory lane. I mean, when you like, cuz he's, it's funny because he's, he's so intense about meditation, like the, the things that he goes through in each course are just brutal, like not only mentally but physically. And he talks about getting sick at one course in India. And it's just, it's just awful. And, and so he's going through these just like astoundingly difficult experiences. And then like, at the end of the book, like, you know, he's he's dialed his meditation way back. And the tone is so much more peaceful, which is just this kind of funny thing is like, wait a minute, aren't you supposed to be peaceful when you're meditating, but when in fact, it's when he dials it back, and kind of lets go things that he's at his most peaceful. And so it's just kind of this and I totally remember that, like, I remember myself, you know, the first few years after meditating and just kind of like, thinking, like, I've just got to throw myself into this as much as I can, and always like searching for these really, you know, kind of difficult intense experiences, and if I'm not having that, it means I'm not, you know, progressing. And, you know, there's those experiences, I don't want to discount them, they're, they're valuable for sure. And I, you know, I think, in some ways I can criticize myself now to not seeking them out enough. But, you know, to kind of think that those are, you know, that's what you need to do kind of from the moment you encounter meditation until the moment that either what you obtain right when you die is just kind of, you know, kind of interesting to look at that now it's like wait a minute, isn't this supposed to be a path of peace and moderation and all that and, and, you know, when you read Lerner's book, it's it's really not it's a it's a warzone, basically from beginning. But but at the same time, he's, he's like, the Ark of the book, kind of, he gets to Sri Lanka, and he's really just kind of going at it just so hardcore. And he hasn't experienced that he believes his full enlightenment and he believes Okay, like, I've tasted it, you know, I stream entry or whatever. I don't think he's those words, but he's, no, this is what the Buddha was talking about. And I have achieved it, you know, not permanently but I've tasted it. And he goes back to to IMC, where he has these teachers. You know, mother siamo is a successor of hula Qin and some other people there that he really respected and he's like, you know, I just kind of want to go back and tell him what I have achieved. And thank them and you know, this will be a great Capstone on my trip and he goes back and basically, they immediately dismiss him, you know, they can tell right away that this guy has not achieved enlightenment, just, you know, like, you know who he is his presence and and he tries to describe it, and they didn't dismiss them and just be like, okay, you know, just keep practicing, and he's like, No, no, wait a minute, you didn't hear me, I really, you know, achieve this, and then they kind of just really shoot him down. And, you know, he's the one telling the story. So he's the one saying, like, they shot me down and, you know, crushed me, that I think is really admirable, because they, you know, to be able to, it must be incredibly painful. And to be able to take that in accept it, you know, he could have just said, like, they don't know what they're talking about, I, I achieved this, and this is, you know, my, my achievement, but, you know, he realized his, his mistake and his ego, and he took it in, and he, you know, integrated it into what ended up, you know, you know, I don't know how much longer but when he got back to America and settled in into a more, what seems to be a healthier, more integrated practice. And, yeah, I really admired kind of the ability to do that. And in a shorter time, like, I think, you know, it's taken me a lot longer to kind of process, my own, you know, kind of attachments to that kind of practice.
Host 41:16
Right. But that being said, as you write about later on, you know, what happens next, like he did write a book, and he did want to have, he didn't want to leave the reader somewhat satisfied that there was some kind of resolution or some kind of clarity and how things got tied up. And what happened next. And, you know, who knows the shape that life really took, although that's not so much embedded in the pages, that's really that really goes along with, you know, your critique of how you were reading the book, and then the spin you put on the essay. So let's get to that a little later on, because that will tie up the books together. But moving on, let's get to one night shelter. This is by Scott Dupree or deprez, I'm not quite sure how to how to pronounce his name, who starts out the book of Scott and ends up the book in robes under a name of Bhiku. Yoga vichara rahula. So with this book, unlike the other two, so much of it captures the protagonists full journey prior to when he learned meditation, so much so that you mentioned in your essay, it could almost be like a travelogue, on its own? If so, it would remind me of something like the famous book, Howard mark, a British guy who was a drug runner wrote a book called Mr. Nice if only Howard Mark had found dama instead of becoming a major drug runner and ending up in jail. But first let's recount where Scott's journey took him before meditation ever came on the scene. So laying out who this guy was and where he came from, and what his what his whole trip was about. What did he have to say?
Carl Stimson 42:43
Yeah, well, he actually does have a drug running stage himself. He was a really, really bad drug runner. Good for his life. But he does, he does try his hand at it. So I mean, the book, you know, really gives him the background, he starts off, he's born in Southern California, born 1948. So, you know, most of the book is like around 72 to 75. So he was, you know, what, in his early 20s, basically, early to mid 20s. And, you know, he grows up Southern California, and sounds like a pretty middle class upbringing, you know, turns into a kind of surfer guy who likes drinking and smoking pot, ends up joining the army and gets sent to Vietnam. And that is really not a very intense experience, except for the fact that he's stoned. Pretty much all the time. He's not in combat, he's kind of as a technical job. And so he's in Europe for a while with the army in Vietnam for someone finally gets out. And then he really gets serious about being a hippie and, and he's, he's a really, you know, proper hippies smoke pot all the time. He takes LSD a lot like I, you know, probably hundreds of times in his life, you know, definitely, just all the time. He's, he's poppin acid. And, you know, he takes one trip to Europe, in the summer, he really likes it spends time in Morocco, and then ends up makes a plan next year in 1972 is going to take a big trip with some friends. And just, you know, he kind of dropped out of college and just, you know, travel for as long as they can. And, you know, when he leaves in 1972, he ends up not coming back to the US for five years. And when he comes back, he's a monk. And so it's it's a pretty major turning point in his life to sleep leaving for Europe, but he, his idea when he leaves, he's got I think, 1000 tabs of acid and that he packs in a suitcase or sock wraps up in a sock in a suitcase, and they fly to Sweden. And he thinks, okay, I'm going to sell these, these this acid and that'll fund my trip and Okay, that sounds like a good idea. And he immediately meets this drug dealer. I think he had a connection with this other hippie drug dealer and basically gives them most of his stash to sell, and then says, Okay, I'm gonna go cruise around, you know, Sweden and Norway for a while and he Goes camping and hitchhiking, comes back. And the drug dealer is kind of ditched town or said I can't remember what exactly why, but basically loses like a huge chunk of his LSD stash that he had, you know, paid for him expecting to fund. So that's his, his first failure as a drug runner. And then yeah, him and his buddies just start traveling, they head south through Europe, he still has some acid left. So he ends up selling that at a music festival. And they have, you know, different adventures, they get to Spain, they take a boat over the Canary Islands where they live for a long time and this little house and kind of get to know the locals and, you know, basically living with a bunch of hippies in this house in the Canary Islands for several months or so. And eventually, they get tired of that, and he takes off to Morocco, travels through Morocco, you know, smoking a ton of hash, they kind of go through North Africa, get on a ferry to Greece, and then they start traveling overland towards their eventual goal is to get to India and they go through Turkey, they get to Iran, and then they get to Afghanistan. And it's interesting in this time, you know, they they're traveling and they're just chillin, like, they're just loving it, you know, they go, really real places, really, you know, just kind of hanging out stand with people's houses. I mean, I just can't couldn't imagine doing that today, especially in some places like Afghanistan, it's, you know, a different time, you know, wouldn't be safe to do that in Afghanistan today. So that's, you know, definitely something that shows the time it was, but it gets to Afghanistan. And now he comes to his second attempt to be a drug runner, they pack up a bunch of hash, and I think they is this crazy idea. Like they one of the maybe it wasn't him, but his friend who has the hash blocks sewn into this kind of exotic vest that he gets made for him, and otherwise has another, you know, couple pounds in his backpack. And they, they end up getting on this bus for the border to India. And for maybe, sorry, Pakistan, I think it is, but they the buses takes a long time, and then it's really hot. And then the hash ends up just like starting to smell. So they just have this, they're just reeking of hash, once they get to the border. And immediately the border guards like, hey, like, you guys know, like hash, can I search you? And they're like, Well, you know, okay, and they search him and bust them immediately. And so they get thrown in jail, and they thrown in jail and Afghanistan. And, you know, I think right now, that would be just incredibly terrifying, but it's a pretty easy thing for them, they just, they kind of chill, it's not all that pleasant, but it's pretty mellow in this jail. And they, they stay there for a few weeks, and they have their trial, and they're guilty, and they say they're sorry. And the government, you know, puts them on a plane back to Greece. And that's kind of it. It's kind of, you know, kind of, you know, representative of his whole life up to that, like, he's just had a real kind of easy way, like things don't always go exactly how he wants. But you know, he joined the army in 1967. And he, you know, basically has no risk of ever getting, you know, bullet thrown his way. And then he, you know, has no bringing drugs on a plane to Sweden, bringing drugs across the border and getting caught and, you know, never really has a big, you know, problem happened to him. And so he's whole time he just continues to smoke and do drugs. And he always eventually makes it to India. And this is where he starts getting into meditation. Actually, in Nepal. He starts hearing about meditation courses, Buddhism courses, and he, he takes his first course in Nepal. It's a four week course with a Tibetan Lama. And that is kind of a life changing event for him. Yeah, so leading up to the time of where he gets his first taste of Dhamma. There's this whole travelogue, I don't know how much of the book it is. It's certainly I mean, it's like a 400 page book. And it's about half of it.
Host 48:45
Right, right. So he's, he's describing and all this detail of his travels and and these experiences in the 70s, these places that are quite exotic. So what was your experience as a reader and a meditator? Going through so much of this journey before any notion of Dhamma kicked in?
Carl Stimson 49:03
Yeah, it was, it was really interesting, because, you know, like, like you mentioned, it could have been a travelogue. I get my next great story. Like he takes this epic trip. And it's, you know, how some funny, great stories interesting stuff happens. You know, he could have ended it, you know, he could have just said, Okay, I got deported from Afghanistan, I'm going home, I'm, you know, going to get a job. And that's kind of the end of my hippie era. And, you know, it would have been a pretty interesting story, but he's just always on drugs. Like he's just always smoking weed. And he's always taken acid. And he's renting it out. And he's writing about it. And I think the book was published in the late 80s. And, you know, he's been a monk at the time for 10 years or so. And so obviously, like he left that life behind, and it was really interesting to see how a monk of 10 years was going to approach that narrative like how are you going to write about this this person who you were, who, you know, you were, it's not like he was a an enormous addict, you know, that was just causing major havoc in his life. Like he was, you know, he was drunk. And it caused him some problems for sure. But it was pretty, pretty minor stuff, you know, in the grand scheme of things. So how is it you know, write about it, and he, he really does a great job of balancing. Like, you know, he's not didactic, like he's not constantly telling like, oh, like I was this fool, like all wrapped up in intoxicants and just ruining my life like you No, no, he tells stories and he says yeah, like I, you know, I took acid in the desert and it was really beautiful and I was really chill and it was a nice experience. And, you know, he's really honest, like, that's how it felt at the time. And, you know, every now and again, when things go a little bit awry from him, he'll kind of point out, like, you know, that my mind was still attached to this kind of need for sensory experiences. And, you know, this kind of manifested in the eventual suffering in this moment, and, you know, give a little blurb about, like, maybe a little dominant perspective, but for the most part, he just kind of tells the story. And it goes from smoking weed in California to smoking weed in Vietnam, smoking weed, and, you know, Europe to North Africa, to, you know, the Near East to India. And, you know, you don't really come across as this, you know, the person who's glorifying it, you know, anyway, but you know, don't really see that he's, he's condemning it either. And it's really interesting, too, because we kind of jumping ahead, but when he ordains, he gives a speech, like before all of these monks in Sri Lanka, and I think the American ambassador to Sri Lanka is there, or maybe it's just the consulate, or, you know, some, you know, it's a big deal to have a foreigner ordain at the time. And, you know, in his speech, he talks a lot about, you know, the Buddhist teachings and how much they meant to them, and all that stuff. And it's all that's quite interesting. But he also says, Hey, like, I used to do a lot of acid, those experiences really opened helped open the door for me for like, getting into Buddhism. And it was just kind of amazing to think of him, like saying that in that setting. And you know, it's really honest to you, because it's true, like, if you talk to people, you know, meditators, a lot of them have similar experiences, but also a lot of people get into Buddhism, end up stopping intoxicants, and seeing them as the, you know, not really the good path to go on. And so being able to kind of treat your past as, as something that was was what it was, and not, you know, wallowing in condemnation, but at the same time, not glorifying is a real fine needle thread. And he does a great job of it.
Host 52:20
Right. So when he got ordained and gave that speech, wasn't there another note in the book about some of his friends back home, celebrating their honoring and his ordination by taking acid at the time that the ceremony happened or something like that?
Carl Stimson 52:34
Yeah, that's a great thing. Because he, he decides to ordain and so he actually writes a letter or a telegram or something back to his friends in, in California, his buddies in California, he actually says in the book, this was going to trip them out or something like that. He basically says, like, they know, they're gonna read this and be like, Whoa, can you get a load what Scott's doing now, man. Like, they sent a telegram back which arrived, like, the day before, he's gonna ordain, I'm pretty sure the day or something. And like, he was gonna get ordained on a full moon day, I think it was an important Buddhist holiday. And so they're like, you know, when that full moon is out, we're gonna be out in the desert taken acid in your honor. And which is hilarious, you know, in a Buddhist context, but it's also really cool. Because at the time, he was really touched by it, and he said, it brings tears to his eyes, and which is just really awesome. I think, you know, he, like, these are his friends, like, these are the people with and they're important to him. And for him to kind of be able see across, you know, that What is it now a pretty significant divide between them, you know, in a lot of ways, like, the, the life he's adopting and the life they're still living, to, you know, have that bond a friendship is, is really beautiful. And I think is one thing for me is, it was really important that I achieved when I, when I was, um, you know, starting to meditate because I, you know, some people have bad lines, and that they want to want to kind of escape from and meditation can help them do that. And that's great. And, you know, I I definitely wanted, you know, meditation helped me escape from suffering in certain ways, but I like my life, I don't, you know, my family was loving and good. And I had a lot of good friends that I didn't want to lose. And it was really important to me to be able to, to maintain those relationships while meditating. And that was kind of a test for me, it was like, if, if I'm not being able to do this, like if this kind of tradition or this practice, makes me lose friends that I value. Like, maybe it's not for me. And so I was, you know, for the most part, I was able to do that. It wasn't without difficulty that, you know, I was able to do that. And so I, I really appreciated seeing that in him just kind of this thought that like, you know, yes, you're taking on a new phase in life that is going to be quite different from what you used to be, but that doesn't negate everything that you used to be at the same time.
Host 54:58
That's really interesting. That's interesting. way to look at it because the way a lot of young Westerners who go into meditation and get into it really strongly, I think, I think not. So one common way to look at it is that that much of what they were doing, how they were thinking how they were living, who they were associated with, was just really not correct or very conducive to spiritual growth. And this isn't even talking about people that were, you know, necessarily in bad situations or really in toxic environments. But just looking at even even like, I don't want to be around anyone who's drinking even a glass of wine or, you know, not following the precepts or not on the cushion meditating, trying to gain spiritual growth. And so in some ways, there's kind of a dissociation or a separation that takes place when the lives start to diverge. But it's interesting to hear from you how, as you took up a practice, the ability to maintain many things that were happening in your life, but yet enhance your experience and relationship with them was important. That's that's something I actually haven't heard before. Huh,
Carl Stimson 56:04
yeah. And, and it's not like it all went smoothly to, you know, I can definitely identify with people who, you know, say, like, I don't want any contact with alcohol and things like that. And not that it's totally resolved either, like I still to this day, like, you know, go back to Montana and hang out with family and friends and someone want to go to a bar. And, you know, it's not not a place I'd prefer to be, but like, you know, go along with it. And how long do I stay? And, you know, it's an ongoing thing, for sure. And that's, but especially in the beginning, it's hard, because you don't really know that it's okay to kind of feel uncomfortable, and it's okay to kind of, you know, compromise in certain situations. And so yeah, that's part of that transition that we were talking about earlier, as well.
Host 56:46
Right. And it should be said, this is a topic that's been said, between two people who used to, before meditation stay up in Roppongi and Tokyo until the sun came up. And maybe remember half of that night if we were lucky. So this is coming from two people that have had an association with alcohol definitely before. And yet the power of meditation was so strong that whatever experiences and revelry we had with each other and an out on the town, in the past, through meditation, those experiences just were no longer of any interest. And they have not been to this day. And I think the the most that you and I exchange on that matter these days is where to get the best stuff. 0.00% non alcoholic beer, so
Carl Stimson 57:30
yeah.
Host 57:33
Right, right. Going back to a couple of things you said a few minutes ago, I want to comment that I do think that this is the funniest of the three books, there's a lot of places of humor in here, whether intentional or unintentional, he he paints the this colorful picture of going of one event after another coming in contact with this friend or that friend going to this place having this this happening. And there's also this sense of like spaciousness in the writing where he doesn't feel in a hurry to get anywhere and, and that's also so as I was reading it, it was kind of like enjoying his journey and knowing he was going to get somewhere at some point, but but really letting him take the time, which is very different from learner that was just full of these really intense and powerful experiences that all hit him at once. And it's it's interesting as well, looking at the background of drugs that he came from. And you're correct that a lot of Western meditators do come from an experience of intoxication of using intoxicants and psychedelics and alcohol and other kinds of substances in that way, and then realizing those only take them so far and looking for something else. I just want to share one story that my co host Zach Hessler has shared before, I might get a few details wrong, so apologies for that. But it is the very best story that I've heard of a meditator coming from a background of intoxicants and substances. This guy that Zach knew was doing some kind of psychedelic and might have been LSD or something. Mushrooms, I don't know what it was. But in whatever hallucination he was having. He was in the most extraordinarily peaceful setting he had ever found. It was just idyllic. And everything about it was just pure peace. And he sat down on the bank of a river and had never felt that way in his life and, and a huge giant came walking towards him and sat down with them folded his legs, and they were just kind of sitting there together. And the giant turned to him and said, this is pretty peaceful, isn't it? And the guy said, Yeah, you know it is and then the giant said back to him, you will not be able to come to this place again until you've completed 100,000 hours of meditation. And poof, the whole thing disappeared. And that's what he was left with. And from that, and apologies again, I might have missed some of the story from how Zack has rendered it. But that's the essence of it. And from my memory of it. The scene just disappeared in a puff of smoke. It went away forever. From that moment on, he stopped doing drugs and found a passion, of course, and went on the path of meditation. And I don't know how many hours he's achieved up to, up to that point. But But certainly, you know, that is where that is a background people come from. And that gets into the question I want to ask is, you reference how he described in the first half of the book, these experiences that he was having the spaciousness as he was progressing through from one place to another, not really knowing where he was going to find or where he was going to end up. And also choosing as a monk writing about it, to relay his experiences from that time, without a heavy sense of judgment, or superimposing the ethical life that he was living. And you wrote, quote, this authentic approach to his younger self journey, rather than imposing retroactive judgments, results in a portrayal that shows how his then mind perceived and was affected, and ultimately changed by these experiences, allowing the reader to appreciate what ultimately landed him into a spiritual practice. So why did this way of writing work for you?
Carl Stimson 1:01:11
Yeah, well, like, you know, he starts off and he just kind of tells it how it is. I mean, the book is not like a real lyrical account, like, he's kind of different than learner. Like, it's not really dramatic. I mean, there's, there's definitely, I mean, you're right, it's funny, there's some funny scenes, and there's some, like, definitely interesting things happen. But it's, you know, the humans a pretty mellow life kind of on purpose. Like he, you know, even even once he starts to be a monk, like, he's, he's intense about it, and he's serious about it, but it still is approaches is kind of happy go lucky. And the whole book kind of reads like that. And, you know, I'm a different person than I was, you know, in my late teens and early 20s, you know, when I was into alcohol and drugs, and, you know, like I said before, is not a not a major addict, and didn't really cause, you know, major disasters in my life. And, you know, we don't really get those tales very often, you hear a lot about people who, you know, go way too far. And then they get out of it, and their life gets better. And those are inspiring stories, but they, you know, you're kind of left with like, well, like it was, when they were on drugs, it was a bad time. And when they got off drugs, it was a better time. And, you know, I, that narrative doesn't hold as strongly, I think, for a lot of people. And that's kind of clear in Bhikkhu rahula, his book and my story, as well, as you know, we left behind that kind of lifestyle, but at the same time, it's kind of hard to say that I regret it. Like, I wouldn't really say I look back on that time, with a lot of shame, with a lot of regret, you know, certainly, sometimes incidents that I'm, that happened that I wish hadn't happened, and you know, I'm happy that I'm not doing those things anymore. But at the same time, it's just like with that, you know, that's who I was at the time. And that's like, what was going on? And, and, you know, what else can I expect? And I handled it in a way that was, you know, reasonable, I guess, and I think, you know, that's a, it's good to be forgiving of your past self, you know, you know, and you don't look back at your self as a six year old child playing with Star Wars figurines and say, Oh, what a immature little person I was, then, you know, like, that's just who you were at the time. And I think that applies to adulthood. In this in a similar way. We don't sometimes we don't let it apply to adulthood, because you're expected to be mature once you reach a certain stage, but, you know, just who I was, and that's what I was going through. And no, not that I you know, as soon as I found a better way, I immediately popped out of it. Like, it took quite a while and there's definitely, you know, ways right now that I could probably be living better than I'm not doing and all that. So it's not like there's, you know, living without regrets and not looking with a critical eye at all. But, you know, it's, it's nice to have a narrative of a guy just just, you know, went through life that he thought was, was, you know, how he wanted to live. And he was, it was, you know, being reasonably successful for him, although there was a time and an Afghan prison, but you know, otherwise was, he was having a good enough time. But at the same time, there was something kind of missing and he was kind of once he kind of found that once you kind of heard about meditation, and once he kind of discovered what what was possible through there, like, he left behind his previous life pretty quickly, like within a few months, he was not doing intoxicants, he was meditating extremely seriously. He was not really involved in more sexual practice after you know, a couple other experiences. And yeah, he just pretty much in you know, he's pretty, pretty sure right, almost from the get go that he wanted to be a dedicated Buddhist. And not too long after that. He was pretty much knew he wanted to be a monk. And that's what he did. And he still a monk to this day. So good on him.
Host 1:04:51
Right. And it's funny that he goes deeper than any of the others just in terms of the other two writers just in the sense that he became a lot Long monk from this experience and is still in robes today. However, what's interesting is according to at least the written accounts that we have before us, he also seems like the one of the three that has the most resistance on his path and getting there or at least he describes the most resistance. He takes these gradual steps towards further renunciation, he had cultivated this, this whole hippie persona and you might laugh about it now, but it was actually extremely important to him. I mean, the the accoutrements and the philosophy and the lifestyle of being a hippie and embracing that as identity was very difficult to give up and happened only kind of one stage after another after another, and then also giving up the the intoxicants was, was the hardest thing for him. People have different, different things that are difficult to give up on the path, especially if they're becoming a monk. For some people, it's sex. For some people, it's food. For some people, it's independence, for some it's entertainment or creativity. So for him, it was very much intoxication. And it was it was a little bit of a one step forward, two steps back kind of thing, until he finally shared it and got to the end of where he was. So what was your feeling as a reader in following this and seeing this direction, he was definitely being pulled in like a magnet. But it wasn't a like a smooth. It wasn't a smooth transition that wasn't without some kind of resistance and some kind of pushback at times.
Carl Stimson 1:06:21
Yeah, well, it's funny, in his first course, at the very end of the course, they have this ceremony where you can take the three refuges, and the five precepts. And what actually, it's kind of an interesting ceremony. I've never heard of anything like it, maybe it's common in Tibetan Buddhism, but they kind of just say, Do whatever you want. You know, if you want to take the treatment refuges do that, if you want to take five precepts do that if you want to take one if you want two or three. And so he, he thought really hard about what he wanted to do. And he realized he wanted to be a Buddhist. So he took the three refuges, and but he wasn't sure that he was ready to give up lying, or intoxicants, or sorry, not lying, he wasn't sure if he was ready to give up intoxicants or sex or lying. Yeah, there was three. So he's only going to give up killing and stealing, basically. And so that so he took those two precepts, I'm sorry, I might be wrong. It might be he took three and he waited for two or took two and waited for three. But anyways, he, you know, he was it was just an interesting process of being very deliberate, like, Okay, I'm ready for this, but I'm not ready for that. And, and that's why, yeah, like, I would actually call it a smooth transition, but it wasn't necessarily a fast transition, because he doesn't seem to have a real a lot of conflict about it. Like he, you know, it gets done with the course and he, he goes back to, you know, Katmandu and he, you know, wants to feel like what it's like to get high, like after this experience, and so he doesn't know he has a few other opportunities to do that. In the next coming months, he takes acid and go on, has some sexual experiences and go up. And, you know, you get the sense that okay, like he's not, you know, he hasn't just dropped it, you know, like, like a rock, but at the same time, like, it just doesn't really seem like it's a struggle for him. Like, he just kind of feels like he really knows himself in a way like, he's just like, I'm not ready for this yet. I'll try it a few more times, just to kind of make sure I'm done with it. And then he does, and then he's like, Okay, I'm done with it now. And just kind of this kind of slow annex. Enix is inexhaustible, sorry, I'm not saying that word, can write it, but I just, you know, inevitable pathway to two roads. And I, you know, maybe he kind of, he left the struggle out of his narrative. And it was, it was a more difficult thing. But that's how it comes across in the book.
Host 1:08:37
So in looking at, like learner, Eric learner, and Scott Duprey, both of them came from the hippie trail, in contrast to john Coleman, who we're going to talk about next. And they also follow a somewhat similar path and where they go and who they learn under Scott, I think was a few years earlier. But that's as far as their similarities go, what differences or distinctions Did you find in their personalities or styles or experience?
Carl Stimson 1:09:03
Well, Victor hood, just way more laid back, like even his meditation experiences. I mean, these are obviously dramatic things that are happening to changes the course of his life. But, you know, the way he just describes it in a much more relaxed manner, so you just don't get the impression that he's just going through these just hugely dramatic things that that that learner is. I mean, they do have several experiences that are similar. They both, you know, started out with going, actually, they mc rahula, didn't truly start out with going. He started out with Tibetan Buddhism, and then his next course was going to but that was, like an early influence for sure. They both mostly stayed in Theravada. They both you know, we're in India, and they both were in Actually, I don't think learning went to Nepal, but they both went to Sri Lanka. They actually both met with this German monk, you know, I'm not really sure how to pronounce it. But it's nyan nyan upon pannonica. Right? Yeah, he's a German monk. He's passed away now, but he and he was elderly, even then when they when they met him, but they both met with him. And in Sri Lanka, I think learner was, was more on a short term schedule, and the kind of you can feel that in his book, like, he doesn't say, like, um, you know, my ticket back is, you know, such and such a date, but like, you know, he was married, and that, that relationship is kind of looming throughout the book, and it's part of his narrative. Whereas, you know, who laughed and he was just, you know, gone. And that's basically he didn't have any plans on coming back. And, and, you know, he didn't necessarily feel a need to get back to anything. You know, he had his parents back in the States, but he really didn't feel a huge attachment to, to being back there, you know, anytime soon. So I think that, you know, he was just much more able to kind of follow his interests and, you know, take time to let things play out.
Host 1:11:01
Right, right. So it's also seen comparing the difference of someone that is ultimately choosing to stay within the monkhood and someone that is having a very intensive meditation experience, series of meditative experiences on courses, and for whom the Dhamma and meditation practice is going to be important for the rest of his life, but is also coming at the end of the book transitioning back into that society as we talked about, so. So yeah, so interesting, different paths. And the third path we're gonna look at is the quiet mind by john Coleman. This took place I think about a decade earlier than the others. And john Coleman was a very different kind of guy as well. He was a former CIA operative. And before you get into the overview of the book, it's interesting just to reference I just read this book that came out this year, last month called Cold War monks. And it actually goes into detail about how the CIA during this time, I don't know if john Coleman was involved, or to what extent certainly the the book takes place after he left the CIA. But during this period, the CIA was indeed influencing the song goes all over Southeast Asia in the 1950s, because they felt that a strong conservative and traditional monkhood was a good bulwark against communism, and that would not want to see communism come to a Buddhist society. So they wanted to have a very strong Buddhist society. And the way you do that is you have a very strong conservative monkhood. However, as we mentioned, it's uncertain if if Coleman had any involvement in that moving from there, let's get to who john Coleman was and what account he relayed in the book.
Carl Stimson 1:12:37
Yeah, so Coleman was a bit older, I think, let's see, he was born in 1930. So that would make him 18 years older than the guru hula, and probably some something similar to learner. So you know, the previous generation, he was too young to have fought in World War Two, but he did fight in Korea. Actually, interestingly enough, he had a role in the Japanese war crime trials, according to a comment that we got on Facebook by a guy who, who knows him, which is incredibly fascinating, just, you know, a major event. And this is kind of a theme for his life. He was, you know, kind of on the ground meeting a lot of important figures. And yeah, his story gets started in the mid 50s. I think it's funny, none of these books were all that great about giving exact dates. You know, they gave a few dates. But you know, it's not totally clear when exactly things started. I know it's in the mid 50s that he was in Thailand. And he was still a CIA agent. I believe under cover. I think he had some kind of cover job while in Bangkok. And yeah, he basically goes through the book, kind of as an exploration for the fight quiet mind. He's seeking the quiet mind is the theme of the book and he starts off in Thailand, he has these these monk, Thai Buddhist and Thai monk friends who they start out the first chapter is about hypnosis and then hypnosis and ESP. And he's doing these he's visiting Duke University in the states doing these kind of wacky contracts where people are trying to guess the, you know, the shapes on the other side, kind of like the Ghostbusters and, and so it's just kind of like, wow, like, okay, gnosis Here we go. And we're talking about mind control of things like that. And, you know, it's, it's associated with Buddhism, but it's not really very Buddhist, but eventually gets into more Buddhism. And he goes to a course in Thailand is supposed to be there for almost two weeks or 10 days or what it was, but he basically is only there for a few nights and it's just too, too intense. And it doesn't really explain why but it leaves quite early. I think next year or not too long after that. He he goes to the Burma and sits in a course at IMC with U Ba Khin, who is still alive, then it's probably you know, late 50s by now. And, you know, as a good a good experience there. Then he spends the next portion of the book, just kind of exploring a lot of spirituality in India. He goes to northern India and meets Tibetan Buddhists, some, you know, talks about Tantra. I mean, in line with the rest of the crazy experiences, he meets some pretty amazing fingers. Like one of them, which he talks about a lot is Krishnamutri, who isn't really a Buddhist or a Hindu figure, but kind of, you know, definitely within the eastern realm of spiritual teachers, and he has this kind of wild chance meeting on a plane with him, where he basically sees just kind of sees this interesting looking indian guy and ends up you know, switching seats to talk with him and being Christian merchanting, which is pretty, pretty amazing. And then when he goes to North India, you know, he just ends up meeting, Tenzing, which is the Sherpa that went up to was the first person to scale Mount Everest with Mr. Edmund Hillary. So it's just like, wow, like, you know, all these amazing figures that he's just kind of running into Oba can being among them for for our crowd. He spent some time in Japan where he meets, you know, the great teachers, I said, to Suzuki and visited Zen monastery. And then kind of towards the end of the book, he goes back to England, and he's, we're not back to England, sorry, he's American, but he marries an English woman, a British woman, and they move to England. And he encounters there, he encounters the Maharishi, he talks a lot about that he tries a little bit of transcendental meditation. And by now we're in a in the late 60s. So he's talking about, you know, the Beatles and that whole craze. And he does a little bit of experimentation, he goes to a couple Quaker meetings, he goes to a couple spiritualist meetings, which is kind of a, I think they're kind of defunct now. But they were, you know, really into sciences. And, you know, speaking with the spirits of the dead and things like that, I also visits a Benedictine monastery and have some conversations with those people. And then at the end of the book, he kind of summarizes everything and says, Hey, you know, looked into all these things. And the one that really stuck with me was the Vipassana that was taught by like in, you know, in Burma, so he goes back there, takes his wife, they spend some time at the meditation center, it's not quite clear if his wife is meditating or not, but he's, you know, meditating and hanging out there. And that, you know, kind of is the end of the book, or at least the end of the first version, he ends the book kind of saying, he goes back to, to England and his wife, you know, has a child or they have a child, and he's kind of working leaves the CIA and he decides not to pursue that, that line of work in the morning, and he gets a job in a factory somewhere in England. And he gets a letter from him again, he says, is quite detailed. It says, You know, I want you to start teaching us and I'm like, you know, you need to be need to meditate and like this certain time of day, or I think it's the night in England, like, I'm going to be meditating, sending out like my meta, or my, my, you know, my meditation vibrations to my teachers all over the world. So you need to be kind of meditating at that time. So you can sync up with it's quite quite detailed instructions about this, but he doesn't really do anything. And you know, that's kind of how the first version of the book ends. And then he ends up writing a postscript, a number of years later, I'm not quite sure how many years later, the first version was published in 1971. And so I still living in England, and you know, his wife is pregnant again. And, you know, by now going is teaching in India, and he's starting to teach a lot of Western hippies who are coming to his courses. And they're saying, Hey, I love this. This was awesome. The stuff I love, I want to continue when I go back to to Europe or to America, like how can I do that? And, you know, U Ba Khin had appointed various teachers. And he apparently told going about some of them and going, he said, Well, you know, there's this guy and in England, and he's an American, his name's john Coleman, and not sure exactly what kind of information he had. But he ends up getting all these hippies start showing up at his door in this like, kind of, like, I don't know what kind of community it is. Exactly. I thought it was a working class community, but I don't know how rural it is. But anyways, it's not you know, obviously not. He's not living in a hippie community by any means. And these hippies keeps showing up in his door, just saying, hey, like, you're john Coleman, like Teach me pasta. And you know, he's turning away says, No, I don't do that. Like, I've got a family and I got a job and they just keep showing up, keep showing up until he finally says, Okay, I'll teach you a course and the course they end up organizing is ends up happening right after his wife gives birth to his second child, it was premature. So he leaves like the day after that child and they both him and his wife say like, you know, you got to go teach this course because if you don't teach him we're you're these hippies and never gonna stop showing up at her door. And so just Just so you know, I don't it's not really clear if he's been meditating in the intervening years at all are very serious. But he expresses a little bit anxiety about teaching I don't think he's ever taught before. But, you know, he goes, and apparently the course goes pretty well and, and that ends up you know, he ends up teaching, starting out pretty long career of teaching, no stretching over. I don't know how long several decades, he teaches all over the world and Europe and America, I think he goes to Asia and other places, and yeah, becomes a pretty prominent teacher. And, you know, I'm not totally sure about the details of, of who, you know, if he was an official Goenka teacher, or if he was kind of a an unofficial going good teacher, or if he's teaching just kind of these courses that were organized more kind of ad hoc, I'm not quite sure that But anyways, you know, teachers for a long, long time.
Host 1:20:48
Right? Boy, I mean, that, that description of having to meditate at a certain time or getting, you know, telegram sent days or weeks in advance that, that he's to be meditating a certain time so we can sync up with the radio vibrations being sent by by Uber, Ken and his meta, that just gives a whole new feeling of these zoom meditation sessions that are happening during the pandemic, doesn't it? Yeah. But, but in any case, so. So thanks for that great summary of going through the experience and and the list of teachers that spiritual journey that john Coleman had. So you mentioned in your essay that despite the basically uniform, good reader review of this book, both on party eyes website, as well as on Goodreads and Amazon and such, it was by far your least favorite, and not just your least favorite of the three. But I don't remember your language, exactly one of the least inspiring or interesting or poorly written books that you've read, anytime in the recent past, which is not an opinion I share. I'll get into my own thought in a moment. But why did you have this kind of reaction to the book?
Carl Stimson 1:21:58
So the headline was the third of these three books that I read, and yeah, I was I was extremely disappointed in it. I'd heard about it for several years. And of course, you know, whenever anyone mentions it, they're like, Oh, this, you know, CIA agent in Thailand, you know, starts meditating. And then dedicates his life to that. Wow, that that sounds amazing. That sounds like a exactly, you know, spy novel Plus, you know, inspiring dama story. Right, great, that sounds great. And I just found it like, an entirely impersonal book, not maybe not entirely, is not fair. But just to me, it was it was basically a set of different pamphlets on different forms of spiritual practice, you know, he would need someone and then or some go to some area where they're practicing something, describe it in completely impersonal terms, basically, like, you know, just how they would describe themselves. And then, you know, give a little bit of his impression on it, maybe mentioned that he practiced it, but not really give any details at all. So it was, you know, I knew, you know, about pretty much all the things he was talking about, I knew, I read a book by Christian Mercury, I've, you know, I know a little bit about Tibetan Buddhism, of course, we know about the kin, and, and all that and Suzuki zen, you know, Quakers, all that stuff. I, you know, heard about before, so the information was nothing new. I was reading this book to see, you know, wow, like, you know, how, how did this guy process it and his personal story, and in the time he was living in, in the, in the context he was living in, and there was really almost nothing on that. It was quite incredible. I mean, except for the last PostScript, which I mentioned, was, was published later when he describes, you know, how he started teaching, which I thought was an amazing story. And by far the best part of the book, there was just, you just didn't get a sense of who this guy was, like, Who was he? And what did he feel about what he was doing? One of his first meditation experiences was in Thailand, where he went to this monastery, I think it was gonna stay two weeks, maybe it's just a week, but anyways, he was gonna stay for this, you know, meditation course. And he ended up staying for like, two or three nights or something. And then that leaves, like, it's just like, really hard for him. And he doesn't give really any explanation about why he left or what, you know, what happened to him, he just kind of said it was really intense in them. And I left that I mean, and that's, you know, that's pretty crazy. Like for this, you know, great meditation teacher who goes on to, you know, have a multi decade career in spreading Tom around the world, too. He ran away from his first course, you know, after three days, like that's, that's again, that's an amazing detail when you kind of put it out there. But you know, with no explanation of what that meant to him, or were how he felt about it or why he did it just kind of really left me empty. And there's a million other things like he goes for a month long course in I think it's in southern Thailand at one point quite a bit later. And, you know, basically it says nothing about it. I mean, it's a month long meditation course. And he says, You know, he spends most more time talking about the monkeys and talks about, you know how he personally felt about it. And it's really interesting. We after you posted the the essay on online, and I guess posted on the Facebook group, one of the members of the Facebook group left this really long comment he had, I think, meditated with Coleman or knew him or something, but just gave him a ton of background on him. And you know, it was a long comment for Facebook is probably, I don't know, several 100 words or so. But you know, nothing compared to the book. And in that comment, I learned more about maybe not more, but I definitely learned as much about john Coleman, his background and who he was and what he did, in terms of the specifics. And I, I learned in his entire book, and to me that was this incredibly disappointing.
Host 1:25:46
Yeah, I mean, there's so many directions that we could go with that, as I'm listening to you talk them just taking down notes over here are the different areas that we can go to explore. So I guess the first comparison I want to make is that it actually reminds me somewhat of when I read this book called Living Buddhist masters by jack kornfield. And for years, I had heard that this was this kind of groundbreaking monumental book that he had gone to these really remote areas all over Sri Lanka, and Thailand and Burma and met these great masters and described as experiences. And just as I started going down the spiritual path, I thought, Man, I can't wait to read this book. And I can't remember exactly when the book was written, I want to say like 1980, or something, but I don't know exactly kornfield was definitely after, or when he wrote the book was a bit after those guys, probably sometime in the 80s, it came out. In any case, when I read it in the age of Internet, and also being someone who was living in Asia at the time, I just found it really kind of boring, and pedestrian, I guess you can say, it almost felt to me, like he had just visited every monastery one by one and had gotten a free pamphlet from that monastery, and then had written a page or two describing his personal experience, either meeting the monk or meditating or just what he learned outside of the pages. And then he put it all in a book and printed it. And here, it's celebrated as this monumental books of bringing the yeast into Western practice. And as I reflected further on it, I became a bit more tolerant and patient with it, because I realized, I'm reading this in the age of internet where I can search some random thing online, and I might not get comprehensive information, but maybe I can find something. And certainly the big traditions, I can find a lot more. And he was writing at a time when many of these great teachers were were not so well known, or what was known about them was very little. And so just being able to physically go to some of these places, and cool information from who these teachers were and what they were teaching what the practice was, like, put it together in a book with a bit of personalization. That's a very different book in 1980, or 1985, than it is when you're reading it in 2015, or 2020. It's just the way that information and access has changed. The interest and uniqueness of that book also changes. So one of the things I'm wondering is if and Coleman, of course, wrote this book quite a bit even before that. So I wonder if that fact might affect your narrative or your review in any way?
Carl Stimson 1:28:10
You know, I don't really think so. I mean, I have to talk to people read it, you know, 1972 or 73. And, you know, at the time, certainly, you can make a comparison with that cornfield book and your impression of it. But, you know, the people who are leaving stars on Mariotti, and Amazon and Goodreads are, you know, presumably, read the book recently, I don't know if there's, you know, remembering their experience, reading it 40 years ago. So you know, these are people who were reading it in the modern era, and really liking it. And, you know, to me, it's just, I don't really understand I, I want to say, I don't really have a problem with, you know, him as a person. I mean, at all he's, like, from what little like, I know about him from reading his book, he seems like a fine guy. And he had an interesting life and, you know, really was serious about exploring is, you know, looking for searching for the quiet mind, and, and all that it just was, you know, his ability as a writer to convey his experiences and his path in a compelling way. I just think it was a failure.
Host 1:29:09
Right, so you reference that you did notice that there were good reviews out there. And by and large, they were mostly the the reviews that you're seeing on all the different aggregate sources, people and these are reviews that people are leaving, in the modern day, you know, this year and previous years are pretty high at this book. And I also would give it a good review, and we'll get into to my push back a little bit later. But what's your reasoning of why you're somewhat of an outlier and one of the few people that has given reviews that actually doesn't like it? Why do you think it's gotten high reviews elsewhere?
Carl Stimson 1:29:42
You know, that's a question I would want to turn back to people who give reviews because I frankly, I can't see why anyone would really like this book and read 2020 you know, it's as a historical artifact. It's moderately interesting. You know, if you had personal relations with the teacher or the teacher addition, you know, provides, you know, a few details that are kind of interesting. You know, the plot framework, the elevator pitch for the book is great, but just the actual execution was poor. So, yeah, I don't really know why people like the book, you know, I, you know, read reviews, and I was curious about it. But you know, these are online reviews where people are pretty brief and just kind of say, Hey, I really liked this and blah, blah, blah. And so, yeah, I don't really have any insight.
Host 1:30:25
Right. And one of the interesting things is that this is of the three books This is by far the most well known owing to its free availability and party IDs website. The other two are pretty rare fines where I think it's fair to say that they're really not very well known in the meditator community, even though the bhikkhu rahula is probably more of a name in terms of a modern contemporary teacher, and he's still in robes. Another thing that makes it interesting and looking at these three books together is questioning why were they written exactly what what was the motivation and the person putting pen to paper, because they certainly don't give the impression of being a book that's a high release, or someone just has a great experience and wants to put it together and write it, you know, at least in the way it's formatted. I can't remember how Eric Lerner's book was formatted, but at least the the additions, we found a Bhiku rahula almost seems like it was a bunch of casual notes that was just kind of put down and shared with friends and family. I don't know if that was the case. And you wonder what john Coleman to what was his motivation writing? Was he kind of pushed to write his memoirs? Or did he just kind of have some notes laying around, and he put them together to just collect where he was and the teachers that he had seen? And I think that would also play into trying to analyze today what, in reviewing the quality of the books and what they were trying to do, and also looking at the author's intent, because none of the three seem really conventional in terms of what you think of like autobiographical narratives today, or at least that's my thought. I'm curious to hear what you think of it.
Carl Stimson 1:31:53
Yeah, I, you know, it's hard to say, of course, it's just speculating. But you know, for learner, I could, I could imagine him, he wrote it, I think, six years after his, or maybe, maybe it's even less than there's only like, four or five years after his experience. And, you know, he became a writer, so maybe he was, you know, going down that path, and he was in contact with the publishing house, and he pitched this idea, and, you know, or, you know, maybe it had rooting around in his mind for a while, and stuff like that. And it's definitely the most professional of all the books, I think, in terms of the writing and kind of having a, like, an art to the story and things like that. As for Bhikkhu rahula. Like, yeah, his I don't know, his motivation. I mean, I guess we could ask him, he's still still alive. Well, it kind of seems almost like a public service in some way. Like, this is this is the record of this monk who, who went from a hippie to, you know, this life. And he wrote it, like, I think 10 years after ordaining or something like that. So, yeah. And it is more casual in a lot of ways. Like, he just kind of starts from the beginning and writes and writes and writes until it ends. And, and you know, he's not a great writer in terms of artistic ability, but it's really easy to read, and it keeps your attention. And it's also self published. I mean, you can go online, and, you know, from his website, or wherever it is, and there's the copy you get is just this big PDF with it looks really, you know, homemade and stuff like that. But I think, yeah, for the john Coleman, it's a really interesting question, why he would write that book. I mean, he wrote it, the main version, the whole the whole book before he started teaching. So, you know, if he was his meditation teacher, and you know, writing his memoirs, that's one thing. But, you know, at the time, he's, you know, a father working at a factory in, in Britain, and kind of seems like his meditation life is done. I don't know what his personal practice was at the time. But he kind of concluded his search for the quiet mind. And he was not going to pursue teaching under the can at the moment. And, you know, so yeah, well, was he coming home from the factory every day and thinking about all the time he spent meditating and kind of missing that life? And he decided to write a memoir or something? I'm not sure. It's a really interesting question.
Host 1:33:56
Yeah, another interesting thing you explore in the essay is just looking at who these are as people. And the difference between Coleman and the other two guys is it's pretty obvious. I mean, the other two guys are our dirty hippies with little money and lots of drugs and long hair. And john Coleman's square, you know, he's a former CIA agent. He's a big, bulky guy, he's, um, he definitely isn't interested in the hippie movement, the book, he makes that very, very clear from various encounters and methodology. And so there's in the hippie generation, I think it's fair to say there's more of kind of interest in meanness and exploring my feelings and my reactions. And I think very prevalent and as carried over the western meditator movement today, and definitely in very obvious ways, but there's just more of an open exploration in both identifying and sharing one's feelings. And so it gives way to much more extensive detailed writing and exploration on that matter in the book itself. And Coleman is coming from a more reticent background and generation and military and, and such and we talked about this a bit before you wrote Your review and we were just talking personally about your thoughts on the book in mind. And this was one theory that you actually brought up and I supported, but then you shut down after you reflected on books written by contemporaries that weren't about the topic of meditation, but other so called squares, who were able in their own way to process their feelings and explore some of the inner terrain in a better way.
Carl Stimson 1:35:22
Yeah, and I can't think of any real specific examples right now. But, you know, go back to Victorian England, extremely buttoned up, you know, we Tyson society, and you have, you know, Imperial Ritz going around the world living in strange and amazing places and writing about their experiences. And, you know, I'm sure there's varying levels of quality, but a lot of, you know, the best of them were able to capture, you know, the moment and their role in it and kind of their arc and things like that. And so I just seems like a sheer fact of, you know, john Coleman's either his skill as a writer, and he's not a bad writer. I mean, again, the books not difficult to read, or just what he wanted to reveal, there does seem to be like kind of a kind of an extreme secretiveness in the book. Maybe that's just an impression on God. But like, you just wonder, like, Why? Why don't you tell him more about yourself? Like it would just make the book so much better? Maybe he was writing it, you know, so close to his time in the CIA, he just wanted to keep things close to the chest or whatever. Who knows?
Host 1:36:22
Right, right. So before we move on, and look at the three books together and talk about some of the overall lessons you learned from them, I just want to take a moment to, to push back on this one, just because I did like the book, I thought it was quite interesting and informative. When I read, I definitely hear your opinion. And I think you have a right to them. And the things you say makes sense. After you read the book, you would mention to me like, boy, I just I can't wait to hear why you like it, like I just can't wait to to get your take on why you think this is a good book, because I sure don't, you know, my, my feeling when reading it is I was just fascinated in seeing this kind of first hand experience with all these great teachers of I can't remember right, exactly, when it starts 50 6070 something around that range that he covers, and as you said, they're not exactly with yours in any of these books. But just to get this kind of who's who gallery of some of these greatest teachers across culture. And this was a time when Westerners were not so interested in the mindfulness movement, and, and documented it and really taking it seriously and wanting to know and so to have a person there that was treating these teachers really fairly and really giving them a platform to stand on and taking what they said with a grain of salt and, and considering it honestly and often practicing under them, and relaying what it was they said I just thought this was it was almost like a reporter or journalist in a sense of just being able to go and, and bring you firsthand, you know, on a plane with Krishnamurti or, or in a building with DT Suzuki, or in a meditation hall with dooba can and to think that like one person met all these people, that one person like Coleman, who met this great teacher also met this and this and this, and this great teacher, and then also some teachers that maybe weren't that great, you know, like the Maha Rishi, or at least today hasn't really held up in a favorable light. But we're really important then, and to get his take on what it was like to meet this person that was professing a similar thing and to kind of get a handle on what he thought of him. You know, it reminds me of the interview I did with the passionate senior teacher, Daniel Mayer. And he was talking about his experiences with Maharishi and with Glinka and then with he never met Osho. But he was familiar with Osho. And I remember asking him a question of, well, these, at the time, these teachings might have seemed somewhat similar, because they're all coming from Easterners, professing spirituality, and he really pushed back that was like, No, you know, even at the moment, I saw that, you know, Ganga, Krishna Murthy, like I really saw they had it together, but some of these other characters not so much. And so to get that kind of ground reporting from someone that was interacting through this diversity in a very fair and honest way, and then assessing those encounters, to me, I just found it just incredible, just really grateful that there was a person who did this and documented it. And I think when you mentioned the further depth of personal exploration you could have had, I'm definitely on board with that. I definitely would not argue with the benefit that that would have brought at the same time. It doesn't diminish in a severe way. What I did enjoy about it, the more I reflect on what you said, Yeah, I think that would have been really awesome for more detail to be there, but I still enjoy what I enjoyed.
Carl Stimson 1:39:32
Well, yeah, I mean, to me, that's, again, the elevator pitch of the book is great, like, you know, counting all these people, but then when when the descriptions come, they're, you know, they're just kind of empty, there's just, you know, it's like, like you said, like I said, they're just kind of pamphlets of describing, you know, this is Christian mercury. This is what he thinks and, you know, a couple lines about what Coleman itself thought about it, but not that much. I mean, the time and everything to think about the context, you know, aside from the experience of reading the book, but You know, just thinking pondering, you know who this guy was. And what he was doing is incredibly fascinating. I mean, right now like, well, especially, it's pretty easy to get a handle on, you know, what, what kind of direction you want to go. If you're, if you're seeking the quiet mind, I guess I mean, you're going to be quickly, you start asking people to go online, you're going to be quickly, pretty quickly shunted towards mindfulness, and then you know, that's going to, you know, there's different paths you can choose and that and different techniques, but, you know, he was going everything from ESP to the Quakers to, you know, erotic Tantra ism to, you know, beroukhim Vipassana, and you know, approaching each one, kind of, like you said, like, giving it giving each one its due, and just kind of saying, like, okay, like, you know, some people say, You're, you're the answer, like, show me what you got, and just kind of give them an opportunity, which is kind of an amazing thing to think about, you know, in this day and age, like someone who is, you know, in their 20s kind of feeling, they wanted some more peace of mind, like, they probably wouldn't, you know, think, okay, I'll try mindfulness for a little bit, and then, you know, maybe I'll go hang out with the Mormons for a while, and, you know, then I'll try, you know, some, some cult down in, something to go hang out, I don't know, you know, just try all kinds of really disparate things. There's just so much more information out there that, you know, back then he just would hear, hey, there's these tantric people up in northern India. And he's like, well get on a plane and go check them out. And that's kind of a cool attitude that I don't think, you know, exists now.
Host 1:41:31
Right, right. So just one last thing to wrap up before we move on from the book. And that's some, you'd mentioned briefly before the appointment that Coleman received from Uber can and I think that's just interesting to think about for a moment, because today with the mindfulness and meditation movement, so much more codified and structures and administrations, so much more set in place, the the teacher appointment and teacher training, the teacher verification, all of that is are much more formal things. And if you go back 100 150 years, as I've researched in some of the books, some of the presentations that I've prepared for with earlier monks, you know, ladies Say, say, say Apogee, much earlier back, this kind of meditation structure isn't in place, it's developed over the years, who began is kind of an interesting middle teacher in there, where it was starting to become more formalized, but it wasn't quite where it is today. So what was the sense of the official dome or the formality on one side versus more more kind of just being casual and not being so specific of the nature of the appointment that he became gave to Coleman? What was your, your feeling as you were reading that part of it?
Carl Stimson 1:42:40
Well, it's interesting, like it, we can want it to make it, you know, an official thing he gave, you know, very specific instructions about these kind of meditation sync ups and things like that. But, you know, based on the book, I don't think the Canon Coleman spent, you know, more than 30 days together or something, I know, he went to the to IMC twice, one for, you know, I don't know how long, he was basically there twice, and each trip was not super long. So, you know, I'm probably a lot of the time he was been meditating or doing something else. So, you know, his his actual time interacting with him, again, was probably extremely brief. And it's just fascinating to think that, you know, based on that, we can decided that, you know, this guy was going to be one of his teachers. And, you know, why was that was that, you know, something who can sensed in him in their brief meaning, like, you know, this guy gets it. And he's, he's at a level where you can do this, was it more practical, like, I need a guy in England, or, you know, in Western Europe, and I remember this guy, and he seemed really serious. You know, that's impossible to say. But the word Wednesday is maybe a little bit critical, but it just seemed much more haphazard. I mean, we can sense this, and then I'm not sure how many years later, but then, just by sheer chance, we're going to remember his name and start sending people there. And people have the time and energy to search him out. And, you know, who knows, if Coleman was even meditating at the time, he, you know, he was certainly never taught before. And, you know, he was pretty deep into his life in England, and all of a sudden, he's being asked to be a meditation teacher, and he just kind of says, Yes, just to get these people off his back. And, and that turns into a whole career. And, you know, I mean, sure, today, there's probably, you know, charlatans out there who just present themselves as mindfulness teachers after, you know, taking a little seminar or something and maybe charlatans a little bit too harsh, but, you know, back then it was, like, there really was hardly any people available. So, you know, he had definitely some bona fides in terms of experience and practice. And, you know, it was a good thing that that Goenka was able to remember his name and people were able to find him and, you know, a good solid career of meditation teaching was to come out of that. I mean, one thing I thought about is if it was today, and you know, you go to Burma and you meditate and you have a deep experience and then you go back home to somewhere in the West. And your teacher emails you and says, Hey, I think you should start teaching Well, you know, you can kind of just do that, like, you can just put out something on Facebook or put up a flyer in the library. And, you know, people have kind of the base level of interest and awareness of mindfulness meditation, that now you'll probably get some people to come to your whatever you're doing, and, you know, you can go from there. Whereas, you know, back then, and, you know, whatever, you know, town he was working on in England, if you would have gone to the local pub, and, you know, ask people, if they were interested in learning meditation, they would have, you know, either laughed them out or threw them out.
Host 1:45:33
Yeah, right, right. So moving to the last part of our talk, where we look at these three books together and look at you as the fourth character in there. Your last piece in the essay really brought together these books and talk not only about how they related to one another, but also common threads running through them, and also what they told us about the arrows they took place in the time periods, and where the mindfulness movement has moved since So spend some time exploring that a little bit here at the end. So first off, you explore this notion of karma on one hand, versus we can call it accessibility. And it might sound a little bit awkward or funny to put it that way. But you know, these incredible chance encounters that were necessary for these guys to find Dhamma, and how it's now pretty much around every corner these days. So not only did that make you personally longed for a kind of nostalgia of what it felt like to find yourself in the right place at the right time, and get it just by this kind of confluence of events coming together. This is something that internet 2.0 is definitely taken away from all parts of our life, whether it's, you know, finding a restaurant, or travel or a friend or a partner or whatever, or a meditation teacher, you also wonder aloud if it's better to have dama found in more traditional forms and faraway Buddhist countries, with it being open to only a very small number of people who are able to go there and access it like like these three pretty extraordinary people, or if it's better for it to be more widely shared with the masses, but in a much more diluted state, or has been combined more with the local culture and needs. And so this is a juxtaposition and a question that you ask. And one thing in the essay you didn't do is answer that question. So what would be your answer of these two ways of accessing the Dhamma? Or the Dhamma being available? Is there one that you think is better or that you prefer or that you think is a more effective way forward?
Carl Stimson 1:47:28
Yeah, I think personally, for me, there's no doubt like how we have it now is much better in in the overall judgment, like if you're making an overall judgment, I definitely prefer having things now, of course, there's advantages and disadvantages on both sides. But, you know, back in the day, like, back when, you know, these three guys were trying like the efforts that they had to go through both effort, and then the kind of, you know, luck or karma or whatever, just, you know, unusual circumstances, for their introductions to Dhamma to happen, are just kind of astounding, and they're definitely more glamorous. I mean, when Bakula first hears about Glinka he's stoned, I think on LSD, maybe it's just pot, but he's still noticeboard, of course, like sitting by a river, I think, and maybe this hotspring by a river in Nepal. And he just this guy comes up and they start chatting. And the guy, you know, says, hey, there's this going guy, and he's pretty cool and teaches courses. And it's just like, Wow, what a scene, you know, he's been traveling for several months, and had all these adventures, and he's up in Nepal, and, you know, lounging by the river. And this, you know, stoned out of his gourd and, you know, has this chance conversation with this guy who, you know, few months later ends up taking a course with Goenka. And, I mean, that's a great story. It's much better story than someone saying, like, yeah, you know, my buddy at work told me about mindfulness. So I downloaded this app. And yeah, it's pretty nice. I get a lot out of it. But, you know, I think it's much better to have the, you know, the doors wide open to people and you know, people still have the opportunity to go really deep, like they, you know, there's retreat courses to go to there's, you know, becoming a monk is obviously much more difficult in the West, but it is possible people, you know, the other people you've interviewed on your podcast have, have done that in different forms, becoming a teacher or long term, volunteer for meditation organizations, and, you know, you just don't have to be special to to encounter meditation or the Buddhist teachings. And I think that's what I mean, that's how it works. When the Buddha was around, I mean, he wasn't, you know, hiding on top of the mountaintop where the person who was seeking the truth had to scale up there and encounter him. He was, you know, down in the towns and, and, you know, staying in the parks and preaching to, you know, housewives and merchants and soldiers and things like that. And that's, I think we're closer to that than we're like, I know, we're closer to that kind of situation now than we were, you know, 34 years ago. And so, to me, it's a much better situation now on the whole
Host 1:49:59
That's really funny. As I was listening to you talk I don't know if you remember this, but um, our first experience of meditation, our first touch both you and I was also being stoned in a hot springs in Nepal. There was a moment we were trekking in Nepal. And we went to sit in the hot springs. And I think there are these might have been Israeli backpackers or there's someone who sat down with us. And they've been doing some kind of meditation. I don't remember what it was. But we were all really interested. And he just kind of gave us a five minute instruction to stare at the clouds and to be aware of our thoughts. As we were looking at the clouds and and that was literally my first moment of meditation. I don't know if you remember that incident?
Carl Stimson 1:50:37
Well, I remember being in Riverside, hot springs, but and I don't remember the meditation, which is pretty interesting. I'm, I don't believe we are on intoxicants at the time, but we might have been hung over from them. Right,
Host 1:50:49
right. So anyway, just another kind of curious commonality. But I'm going on a more serious note, going back to the the points that you bring up with where mindfulness has spread, it reminds me I read this book last month called mindful America. And one of the questions that it poses in the mindfulness movement going forward. And where it's spreading is he presents all the ways that mindfulness has been adapted to the American scene. And then the last chapter kind of asked this open ended question that he doesn't answer because there kind of is no answer, no objective answer, at least that is it a triumph of mindfulness over materialism, that it's found everywhere. So mindfulness has really triumphed, because it's been able to integrate all around and it's more accessible, or on the other hand, is it a triumph of materialism over mindfulness? Because it's been totally integrated in our political and economic cultures, rather than confronting and overturning them? So that's also another interesting thing to think about, as these the passionate meditation mindfulness movements have continued to spread.
Carl Stimson 1:51:50
Yeah, that is a fascinating question. I mean, I think you can say, either one in different contexts, for sure. Like, there's definitely mindfulness in the form that has materialism has kind of become the the bigger priority when, you know, you see it used for productivity and things like that. And even for, you know, for more mundane, but more serious things, like, you know, call me anxiety and things like that. I mean, those are kind of considered secondary objectives when, you know, in kind of more serious Buddhist practice, but, you know, I think there's definitely more more openness and more availability for, you know, having mindfulness be the triumph over materialism, you know, definitely compared to the 60s and 70s. And, of course, you know, compared to before them,
Host 1:52:38
right, right. And so given these three areas, like let's say, there's the early days of, we can call it like the 50s, to the 70s. And then there's the more established periods that you and I are a part of, say, the 80s, through the arts through the 2000s. And then there's the current time period of like, the 2000 10s, on of these three periods, where would you want to place yourself as a Dharma practitioner? And is there one of these periods you would call like, a golden age?
Carl Stimson 1:53:05
That's a great question. Uh, huh. I mean, it's funny, when we first started meditating, I think I took my first course in 2002. And in the, you know, the five or six years after that, I was, you know, probably my most serious time in terms of, you know, sitting meditation practice, I remember, you know, still being just completely thrilled when I would see meditation, or specifically the person that mentioned in the news or in pop culture, it just seemed like the most astounding thing in the world. And, you know, now you can probably find 10 News reports today, you know, or this week, talking about that kind of stuff. So it's just become so common, and so common that, you know, it's, it's no longer thrilling, it's almost, you know, disheartening in some ways to see, it's so integrated, you know, the MC mindfulness craze, of course, kind of sums that up perfectly. You know, I don't really know, it's so hard to say because, you know, access to the teachings is such an important factor. And if you say, like, you know, when I was reading the books, especially the first two books, there was a real sense of kind of, like, having missed out on a great time, like, this hippie trail really sounded cool. And all these like, you know, new experiences that were just, like, only available to a select group of people were, in the settings were so kind of untouched and pure, like, Wow, that sounds really great, you know, for sure, but like, you know, when you contrast it with the fact that, you know, these people's friends and families back in America, you know, are completely cut off from those experiences, is kind of a tragedy. And now, like, you know, that's not the case. Like, you know, we all have experiences with people in our lives who have tried mindfulness now we're human like, wow, this person tried it, like, That's amazing. And then you've got something out of it and, and so it's really hard for me to say See that, like a past era was a golden age when accessibility was so restricted and accessibility is, you know, such a key element of this, because, you know, really, it's supposed to be helping people. And if it's, you know, only helping a small select group who are, you know, part of a counterculture that is open to it, that's, you know, kind of too bad, you know, that really kind of was dying on its status as a golden age.
Host 1:55:25
Right, right. And that being said, you know, it's worth recalling that Buddhism was not native to Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka, and all those places that arrived, and it settled there, it just that happened a long time ago. And so the experiment that we see happening now, in the West, it's only been quite a bit more long going there back in the Buddhist countries today than it is here. And another thing is, nor is it static, when you look at those Buddhist countries in Southeast Asia, society's relationship with the understanding of the Dhamma goes through profound transformations there from one historical period to another, and we're not talking centuries, we're talking decades. So would it be fair to say that, this moment, right now in the US, we're only just now finding our footing and finding the right fit? It's not going to be a perfect process as we go there and to be, I think it's really easy to, to look at what we're doing wrong, and what's being watered down what's being diluted? What's kind of being silly, if we take a wider view of history, and we look at what has happened with the spread of religion and spirituality, anywhere in human history, this is what happens is things get transplanted. So would there be an argument for taking a longer view of history and being a bit more patient and tolerant of, of some of the jumps and starts that we're seeing here?
Carl Stimson 1:56:41
Oh, for sure. I think so. I mean, the US is, I don't even think out of the lesson general is out of the, you know, childhood stage of Dharma there, you know, there's some centers that are decades old now, and, you know, are pretty established. But, you know, I really think it remains to be seen if, you know, in another few decades, or 50 years or so, if, if we're going to have, you know, mine, it seems like mindfulness is gonna stick around, and maybe, maybe it'll, in the greater culture proved to be a fad, like, you know, aerobics or something like that. But, you know, it seems like it's being adopted pretty seriously by, you know, kind of all levels of society. But I think it really remains to be seen if it's going to be adopted, in a way where kind of the more serious, more Buddhist approach is going to be kind of the foundation of it. Or if the kind of like, plug and play mindfulness where you can just, you know, it can be corporate mindfulness, it can be, you know, taught in a in a sports gym, like after yoga class, if, you know, it can be taught in schools to help kids behave better. You know, if that kind of like, superficial might be harsh, but it is kind of superficial compared to, you know, I think more a more Buddhist practice. But, you know, that might be kind of like, what mindfulness is in the West. And there's only a few scattered people who are really kind of dedicated to the more Buddhist practice, and I think it's really up in the air as to what we're gonna end up with. Mm hmm.
Host 1:58:07
And you note that in elsewhere in the essay that these books read kind of like a bygone era of travel and discovery, in an age where now mindfulness is really around every corner. So why would you think it might be interesting, relevant, even important for younger practitioners today? Who don't really know this background or past just kind of know what comes to them through the mindfulness app or whatnot? Why might it be important for them to learn about where it came from? And some of these early days?
Carl Stimson 1:58:36
Well, it's funny because like, you know, these books, especially the first two that we talked about, are really about, you know, the early days of Dhamma. Like when you find it and the first you know, year or so, or the first year or so, after you get serious about it, where you just really dedicated to it just really inspired by it, kind of kind of overdoing a lot of things and just hasty or just frantic about your practice. And, you know, that's most evident in learner's book, I think, and, but still, like, you know, bigger rahula was really intense, like, right away, and he was, you know, just definitely going full bore, and I'm not sure what he ended up doing and his life, but it seems kind of hard to imagine that he was that intense. He's been that intensive, the last 3040 years. And, you know, it's always I'm critical of that time like that, you know, that's, that's a time that I've grown out of, and, and I'm glad I've grown out of it, like, you know, even though I missed certain parts of it, it's, you know, I realized that that was a stage of immaturity in terms of me as a dominant practitioner as a meditator. And so it's, in some ways, I'm critical at that time, but I also also found it extremely valuable. Like, it's extremely, like the experiences you have them are so profound, and they're so moving and they're so transformational that, you know, it's I'm just so grateful I went through that period, I don't know what would have happened if I would just have dipped my toes in you know, doing like, 20 minutes a day, you know, for for six months or so like, what would my life have been like that then maybe maybe that you can do it that way, and not have this kind of frantic stage where you just burn so bright, you know, expending all this kind of energy in an inefficient way. Like maybe that's the way I'm not sure if it's an E, like these profound experiences, and retreats are just a really valuable part of the experience. And, you know, for people now who, you know, maybe tried meditations for an app or a short term course, you know, in their daily life, like to go to retreats and have these experiences or to read books about, you know, the possibilities that are out there, you know, I would think that would be something that would be really inspirational, and hopefully encourage them to explore deeper practice.
Host 2:00:45
Yeah, and I think also, just knowing the flow of history of a field that you're interested in, I just think it brings a profound shift in perspective of what it is that you're doing, just knowing that you're part of a flow that has come before you and made you what you are made to help shape your understanding and the possibilities and it continues to carry on. I think that's true, whether you're a meditator, you know, looking at where this mindfulness movement came from, in addition to actually doing your practice, I was listening to a podcast the other day, it was about NBA basketball. And they were just talking about the difference of the young players today who know the history of the game and know the greats and the ones that are just completely caught up in the modern era without an appreciation of what came before him and how the game developed. So I think that being someone who loves history, and feels in some way, shape by history, in the sense that the more I learn about a place, or a concept or a development, it changes where I placed myself on that trajectory that I didn't come out of nowhere. And that the opportunities available to me also didn't come out of nowhere, but kind of seeing how they were shaped and brought to me in present day.
Carl Stimson 2:01:48
Yeah, I agree. 100%.
Host 2:01:50
Yeah. So shifting to another topic, diversity, this is perhaps no more pressing than today, where in the wake of these recent Black Lives Matters, protests and the movement, all kinds of social institutions are being questioned as never before. So while opportunities for non white American males were definitely less back then to engage with the Dhamma to travel in general, there was as you mentioned, there was one book that could have been read this was Mary Biles journey into Burmese silence, that was definitely a book in line with these of a Westerner and Australian woman in this case, who visited mainly Burma and talking about her experiences with two different disciples of Lady seda. But in any sense, my question to you is, while this lack of diversity wasn't explored by the authors in this book, it was noticed by you. And what's interesting is that this lack of awareness in terms of lack of diversity, which back then would ultimately feed into establishing an organizational structure, that very likely also didn't take into account this diverse audience who could benefit from these teachings. And that's starting to be questioned today, and still persists. And so while reading, was there any moment or anything you caught, were this blindness to diversity allowed you to notice or to observe some unexamined assumptions on the part of the authors.
Carl Stimson 2:03:11
I think in the first two, two books, learners and Bhikkhu, rahula is not as much they, you know, they, it's funny, being in the hippie generation, we kind of now or at least, I do associate that with civil rights fight for racial equality, as well as you know, the feminist movement of that time. And, you know, maybe that's wrong for me for really associating them so closely together. But, uh, you know, those guys didn't really show any awareness of, you know, the kind of what we would call identity politics. Now, they just, you know, they were, who they were, and they went through life. And, you know, for the most part, they treated people pretty well that insofar as I could tell, like, I don't recall any real sexist remarks or racist remarks, or even really, you know, probably, quote, unquote, problematic remarks, anything like that, and it was just kind of like, it wasn't even on their radar. It wasn't, you know, they didn't even think about the fact that most people meditating were white males, you know, heterosexuals, all that, you know, all that. So, not so much with them. JOHN Coleman, for sure. I mean, he's definitely evidently a man, before the hippie generation and of the 50s. He, he makes quite a number of statements in the book about the differences between Asian culture and Western culture that are, at best, extremely old fashioned, you know, he's not really critical of Asian culture of anything. He's praising it in terms of these differences. He couldn't really call it you know, racist in kind of a vindictive sense, but it's, you know, it's the kind of stereotypes that people just do not really throw around these days, you know, things about you know, Asians being more inscrutable and contemplated and you know, non dualistic and things like that, that are just kind of, you know, just kind of seemed ridiculous now, he definitely makes some statements about women that are a bit more retrograde and but again, you know, nothing extremely ugly, just you know, kind of more than women are, you know, made for making babies and being at home? And that's kind of the natural order of things. And that's obviously not something that a writer would write today. So yeah, I mean, I, it's interesting kind of unsurprising to see that in Coleman's book, just given who he was, and the age he was coming from, you know, it was a kind of expected, I see a little more in the opposite direction, like a little more awareness of race or gender or things like that, and the other two books, but you know, maybe maybe that was just my preconceived notions about about what the hippies were.
Host 2:05:35
Right. And I just think that's, that's interesting, when you think today with some of the questioning of social institutions that's happening. And some of the unexamined assumptions from the largely white Western male base that brought these teachings to us and might have inadvertently continued a sense of white privilege are unexamined assumptions with the way they were setting things up. And I think that was good on you to identify that. And I think that's, that's a discussion that really needs a lot more focus, and examination today of how we really can make these teachings accessible across a wide spectrum of different, not just different different races and backgrounds, but also different socioeconomic skills and such. So as we talked about, at the outset of the talk, you brought yourself into the essay as a fourth character, and you spent some time reminiscing on your own discovery of meditation in your youth, the fervor the enthusiasm that you brought to practice during this time, because it was mirroring some of what you read in the pages. What did it feel like to recall those years to go back and remember the feeling and what it was like when you were caught up in that I'm not sure if that's something that's been on your mind lately. And as you were reading these books, and doing the review, and writing that living back in those years, was very much something you were doing for several weeks. And so, so what was that like to be back there?
Carl Stimson 2:06:56
Um, yeah, I mean, it's a fascinating, I haven't thought about those years, you know, so deeply in quite a while. And if you read that essay, you'll see there is, you know, I described a period of enthusiasm and then kind of a period of maybe, you know, disillusionment or spiritual crisis, and then kind of now feeling like I've come out kind of come out the other side of that. And I spent a lot of time kind of processing those years of disillusionment and spiritual crisis and kind of figuring out like, what, what exactly that meant and why it happened, and things like that, but haven't really examine the years of just kind of pure enthusiasm and dedication. And yeah, I'll be honest, they made me feel nostalgic, you know, kind of wistful for those years, just the, you know, I remember during that time, you know, just kind of feeling like, no matter what kind of time off I had, I wanted to spend the, you know, in serious meditation, like, if I could get five days, and there was a center nearby, I wanted to go there for five days, if I could get two weeks, I wanted to go for a 10 day course, and then stay on and serve a little bit. This was in the going to tradition. And, you know, that's not how I live now, for sure. I mean, if anything, I I've lost that dedication. I feel like I wish I had some of the back. Like, I would definitely would like to get away for a course. And, you know, it's not lack of time, that's preventing me it's lack of motivation. So, you know, there was definitely some kind of, you know, wistfulness, you know, may change with a little bit of regret, things like that, you know, mixed at the same time with I felt it especially in learner's book because his book is, you know, like I said, so frantic and kind of unbalanced in so many ways. I just kind of felt like a, like an old man kind of laughing at a young child just be like, Oh, yeah, you know, I went through that, too. And that was tough. I'm sure glad I'm not, you know, in that space anymore. So it's kind of a mixture of wishing there was some of that energy and passion still there. But at the same time, definitely not missing the, I don't know what to call it the ignorance I guess of that time.
Host 2:08:57
Yeah. And then going down that road, you kind of push back at this happily ever after idea of an ending. and wondering what happens next to the authors. And as mentioned earlier, it's quite interesting because that's not really embedded in the text. That's really a reading that you brought to it based on who you were when you read it. And as you your yourself, say when you look back on your meditative practice, you weren't on like a straight German Autobahn as you would once thought. So I know that you did some online research of these characters, and trying to find out what happened to them physically after, after the book ended, but there's no way to really learn about how their actual practice grew and changed the challenges or the crises of faith that they may have undergone. And not knowing this, you use it as a jumping off point to reflect about your own spiritual journey. And what you go on to write is so detailed and thorough. I think it's best to bring the listeners who didn't read the essay. So after you had your this is it moment and the moment where you were just describing where if you have five days you wanted to go to a center Take five days, you have two weeks you want to sit attend a course and then spend a few days serving after this kind of this, is it moment to finding the Dhamma past what happened next? What what state were
Carl Stimson 2:10:11
you in? Well, you know, can you for a while and I, like I said, it just felt like I was on the straight, straight and narrow path, like I made a lot of changes in my life and, and felt a lot of improvements from, you know, the retreats and the daily practice. And, you know, I, you know, met some teachers that I really looked up to just the kind of vibe they gave up, I thought was, was something I've been looking for, and kind of something that, yes, I want, you know, this is the kind of vibe I want to have, you know, and 10 1520 years, and the instructions are so clear in the blink of tradition that, you know, this is the practice and it's not, you know, terribly difficult to learn, you can learn it in a few days, and, you know, just implementing it and continuing is the challenge, but it just kind of felt like, Okay, I have the recipe, and I'll just, you know, put it into practice and time will pass and I'll do whatever I can to dedicate more and more time to that and, and, you know, eventually I'll just keep feeling better and better and, and that just, you know, kind of stopped like I, you know, I wasn't that, you know, I kept continue to go to retreats, and they continue to be fairly profound. And, and I continued daily practice and that, you know, kind of, in the moment felt nice to come home from work and, you know, meditate and be that, but there was just a really loss of momentum of you know, change and things like that, and you know, plateauing or stagnating, all those terms definitely apply. And I felt just so confused by it for so long. And then, you know, it took me a long, long time to even admit that I was just having problems. And, you know, I tried talking to different people, teachers and friends and things like that. And, you know, no one really, within the tradition had an answer for me, or at least, you know, something that really clicked and, yeah, I eventually just kind of stopped meditating, you know, not fully at first, you know, the two hour a day practice is kind of the standard and the going to tradition. And if you, you're kind of doing that you're kind of on the train, you're your member in good standing. And, you know, letting go, that was a huge step. And eventually I did actually right after I stopped my first long course. And that was kind of a really surprising moment, because I gone through such profound change with meditation in the early days, it was really coming from a point of suffering and a lot of ways that meditation just changed almost overnight. And it was just such a such a miracle that I was just, you know, bowled over by it. And it generated so much faith, and so much dedication. And I was just kind of terrified. I don't know if it was the messaging of the tradition, or if it was my own thinking. But I was terrified that if I stopped that meditation, I would just kind of revert back to this, who I was in the past. And, you know, eventually was just, I was just so frustrated and so disillusioned, that I, you know, stopped meditating two hours a day, and it went down to about an hour and, you know, kept getting less and less. And, you know, nothing really changed. At least nothing substantial. I certainly didn't go back to who I was at 24 years old. And, you know, that was kind of a shock to me. And it really has made me question, you know, what Dhamma practice is and how it affects us, you know, how it affects your mind how it affects your behavior. And, you know, for the longest time, I thought it was just like weightlifting or exercise where if you stopped doing it, you know, you're just going to get fat gets off. And you know, when that didn't really happen when my mind didn't go back to, to kind of its old, harmful habit patterns, I really had to rethink it. And so that was kind of part of the process.
Host 2:13:47
Right? And you mentioned that the main advice you received from Dharma friends and teachers at the time, when you're going through this could basically be boiled down to something like, don't be lazy, just keep sitting power through this, it's eventually going to pass away. And I'm sure there's listeners that are hearing this now and are meditators and are thinking the same thing that like, Hey, man, you know, with more steadfast determination, whatever defilement that's there, that's that's keeping you off the cushion that's keeping you from continuing to make this a priority in your life, that this is a defilement that, eventually is going to be let go of with just more prolonged work and focus and meditation. And yet you deal with this, this piece of advice head on and in your essay, and writing in how you dealt with it. And how was that you definitely heard this advice from a lot of people directly indirectly from the the teachings and the instructions themselves? How did this particular piece of advice fit into what you were going through and how did it work or not work?
2:14:48
Yeah, well, at first it was the advice I was telling myself, I was just like, 'Well, you know, this will pass and I just need to rededicate myself or work harder or things like that.' And after a while, you just kind of wonder, like in the Goenka tradition, they talk about storms that come. And storms are these kind of periods of extreme difficulty in your practice. And so I was constantly wondering, 'Is this just a storm or maybe like a weather system that is just floated over me, and is going to be here for years. And if I don't keep working at it, it's just going to stay forever?' And so therefore, that advice of just like keeping working, is what it was. And I think what I eventually figured out is that, those things pass, everything passes, I mean, that's kind of the basic teaching, like everything passes, and that feeling was going to pass, kind of no matter what I did, like, if I worked really hard, eventually it was going to pass in some way. And if I stopped working, it was going to pass, probably in a different way. And so that was kind of was kind of a funny thing to realize, because it was kind of different from the Sankara model where you have this solid defilement that is just not going anywhere, unless you shine the light of vipassana on it really firmly. And there's definitely something to that model, there's great value in sitting down and examining your mind for long periods. But also,the mind just changes, in a lot of ways it's not under our control. And this advice, thinking that it wasn't going to change unless I worked at it was kind of flawed in a way, because it was going to change no matter what. And eventually, I stopped meditating, and I just let go of that feeling that I needed to have this kind of progress. And that I think was really more of what made the cloud lift, is just the letting-go. And I understand that that is kind of part of the teachings of any kind of Buddhist tradition. But I do think that sometimes that those kind of core approaches of just letting go and just not being attached gets kind of subsumed by specific techniques. And this is not limited to the Goenka tradition at all. Like, you think that you have this tool that you need to apply to this problem over and over. And the tool is supposed to be useful, but it's not really the tool itself that you're using, it's the underlying principles that cause that tool to work in these circumstances. And I think in some ways, I lost sight of the circumstances and was concentrating on the tool.
Host 2:17:42
Right, right, that makes sense. And another thing I'm thinking, as I hear you talk is recalling back how you described it in your essay, and you use this really interesting analogy of a food or maybe not an analogy, but you use the idea of food in two different ways to represent the confusion, the inner turmoil, you were going through that on on one, it's definitely something I relate to, and not just me, but having lived in Myanmar as long as I've had and having a lot of monastic friends, friends that have gone in out of the monastic order of monks or nuns and have dealt with all kinds of crazy and confusing and complicated cultural matters when they've been going through it. And this is a dynamic I see coming up again and again. And it's this idea of, do I, this, this storm, actually, even the use the word storm is kind of a subjective thing, this issue that I'm going through this thing that's confusing me, is this something that I really need to deny all food to food, meaning like, mental thought, and consternation and emotional, emotional residue, or, you know, whatever that is, I just, I really need to deny food to what this matter is, because that's distracting me that's making me boil in this and giving more more wood for the fire and just keep going and going and going, I need to cut off this food and just observe and kind of burn what's left and then I can move on from it. It's one choice you have of looking at how you proceed how you progress, the opposite of that, which is, you know, completely the flip side completely 180 is this idea that I actually need more food, I need to consider this critically, I need to be open to other ways of looking at this and really use the old noggin, you know, really, really think deeply and critically about what is it that's going on to me? And is this is this right? And what's the best way to work with it. And so it becomes this dynamic of using the food analogy of like, is this something that I deny food and just let the practice take care of itself? Because food will just distract me and make things more confusing? Or is this something that actually needs more food and by not giving it more food of consideration and critical thought, I'm getting more insulated. I'm getting more confused about what's happening. I'm getting more out of touch with reality. And it's really confusing when you're in those those spiritual moments to figure What is the best way of working? And that kind of relates to what you said, of knowing what is the best tool for a given time?
Carl Stimson 2:20:07
Yeah, for sure. And it and you know, both of the approaches you describe are valid, you know, in certain in different circumstances. I mean, I think if, you know, for certain things, like, if you're trying to give up a really bad habit, like, you know, maybe intoxicants or, or something like that, like, you know, probably the best way is just to stop doing it and not, and try not to think about it or avoid it, you know, and, you know, eventually, a couple years pass, and you'll be like, wow, I haven't really thought about, you know, having a beer or smoking a bowl. And in a long time now, and, okay, I'm kind of over that and great. And, whereas if you were just tried to kept analyzing it and analyzing, maybe, you know, you would have just kind of spinning your wheels, but I, you know, I'm kind of thinking now that like, in 50 years approaching dama, you kind of, or at least I, it seems like a lot of people who are like kind of given a technique that they, they really like, kind of take this simplistic approach that you don't give food to stuff and, and it's just like saying, like, okay, here, I have this, this tool that's really useful. And all I need to do is use this tool in the way that is told to me, and just, you know, keep doing that, keep doing that, keep doing that until I finish. And, you know, that definitely is it has a certain effect, you know, extremely profound effects that a lot of times, but, you know, that's not the only way to work. And it's kind of embarrassing to think back on myself. Now. You know, that I thought things were so simple, like, you know, the mind, and its relationship to, you know, how it, its habits and catchment, and all those things is incredibly complex and tricky. And just to think that I can be given, you know, one really simple set of instructions that was just going to kind of take me all the way there is, you know, really kind of laughable right now, it's like, and I, you know, I don't really blame the teacher, so much for that as, as kind of just this enthusiasm of like, Oh, my gosh, I found this simple technique, and it's right away, it's proven to be so useful, like, all I need to do is just kind of stay on this escalator, and I'll get to the final goal. Whereas, you know, really, you know, the mind is, there's a lot more going on there. And you have to take a much more kind of proactive approach to it, you know, really thinking about what you're going to do and why you're going to do and all that. And, you know, I think that you know how I can't say that I'm really implementing that in my daily life, maybe a little, a little bit more than I used to, but you know, if I was going to go back into deeper Dharma practice, I hope that I'd have that approach, you know, more than, than just okay, like, Here's 10 days, 100 hours of on the cushion, like, you know, I'm just going to kind of put in the hours, basically.
Host 2:22:44
Yeah, and it's really interesting thinking about that, because I recall back after my second passionate course, in Japan, and I left the course with so many questions of, like, I was really on the cusp of becoming a serious student and dedicated my life to it. And I wanted to know, why is it working this way, and what happens if I feel like this and, you know, I read this in the book, and it doesn't really correspond with this. And I remember the the teacher who was there at the time, the course had ended, and there was a another resonant teacher that came and stayed at the center. And so it wasn't like my course teacher about kind of like a center center teacher, Canadian guy, really, really nice, gentle, gentle guy. And I, I was asking him for this advice. And it just just kind of gave me this gentle, calm smile and said, just, you know, just go on the cushion like the practice you're going to do, it's going to give you better answers than I ever could better answers you could read in the book, or you can get by talking to anyone else. Just Just work it out on the cushion and find your your resolution there. And when you talk about these tools, that was a tool that I never had in my life. And I think it's interesting to go back to this moment, because you're talking about tools as kind of like they get worn out or like someone gives you a hammer, and then you go around the world. And the only thing you're doing is using a hammer to fix every problem. And actually, there's more tools out there. And so you're kind of looking at the disadvantages of relying too much on a tool. But when you're when you go back to the very beginning, it was like this was a tool that I never knew was possible. And I had done two courses. So like, I knew what the practice was. And I knew the process, I just didn't realize it was a tool that could be used for when I got stuck and trying to figure something out. It's like, Hey, I'm stuck in, like, the way I know how to figure out is I'm gonna think about it, I'm going to write about it, I'm going to read about it, I'm going to talk about it. And this guy was like, No, you know, go go sit on the cushion. And that's where you'll get some some insight and some learning and it was so profound to me, you know, that response is so profound that like, wow, I really can do that. And that stayed with me for years and years and years, just that power of sit on the cushion and work it out there. But then eventually it did get to a point where it was like I don't know if it was a way of escapism or a way of not being critical or creative or playful, but that what at that moment was was such a new way of dealing with an old situation that really provided answers and then realizing that itself needed to kind of transform as it went into into different areas. And I think that gets to the question I have for you. And what you write in the essay is that although you do feel some regret and histologia, for this time, when you had a stronger practice, you also see yourself as passing through a stage of a damaged child to a dominant adolescent. So can you share more of what you mean by this, what these terms mean, and how they've reflected your own journey?
Carl Stimson 2:25:34
Yeah, well, the Dharma Child and Adolescent it's actually a phrase of your, your co host, Zach, and I think I've even heard him use that on the podcast before. So but basically, what he means by that is Dom adolescence is just a time where you're exerting more authority and independence over your practice. And therefore, and also, you know, having more responsibility, you know, when you as a child, you know, felt really sheltered under the hand of the teacher, and there was so much to learn in these early areas, you could kind of just kind of give up your own, I don't know, initiative, or maybe even decision making power, and a lot of ways to just this, the teaching in itself, and then just kind of grow in that, and there's a lot of opportunity for that. But, you know, I think eventually you, you kind of have to be more on your own and be on your own, I don't necessarily mean leaving a tradition or, or, you know, just kind of going out into the world by yourself, necessarily, it's just more of a, you know, taking more responsibility for your practice and how it develops and how it goes. And, you know, that's a, that's a scarier stage, you know, it's really comforting to just have simple instructions. And or maybe not simple, but just clear instructions, that of what you need to do to to progress. And, you know, there's a lot of comfort in that I remember, you know, thinking as an early meditator, like, wow, like, you know, so simple, like, everyone can do this, and then they'll be happy. But, you know, and then that doesn't even really work out for myself in the end. And I think for a lot of people, you know, it's not quite, it's not that simple. And so yeah, so that now, like, I'm in a stage where, like, yeah, I've got to make a lot of more choices, and some of those choices are going to be, you know, it's just more reliant on on what I do in my own initiative and my own thinking, and, you know, it might not be great choices, for sure, I might, I might make mistakes, I might, you know, try things that don't work. Or I might, you know, allow myself to be, I don't know, lazier, or just not not as earnest and, you know, try that out for a while and see how that feels, and all things like that. But, uh, you know, going back to like, this idea of Dom as an exercise, or as I compare it to walking through a door, you know, a lot of ways I think the exercise analogy works in some areas, but, you know, once you, you kind of, understand the tenants, and once you kind of integrate those tenants into you, you know, to a certain extent, like, you know, they're not going to leave you, you know, they're not going to, it's not like, I'm going to go back and think like, oh, like, you know, if I if only I made money, a bunch of money, I'd be happier, you know, that that kind of that ship has sailed for now. And so. So, you know, I have all this wisdom that, you know, I've been given, you know, through the hard work of the teachers came before me. And I'm really grateful for that. And now it's, it's more becoming my turn to kind of figure out how to apply those tools are the tools that I've been given or, you know, talking to people or exploring and finding other tools to, you know, use the principles that I have to, to apply to my practice into my life?
Host 2:28:42
Yeah, yeah, that's really great. It's great to hear all that. And I know I've said this several times before, but I have to restate it, I just find it so interesting, the interpretation that you gave to the books based on where you're at, because these ideas of like the different stages you pass through as a meditator, or the different eras in time, you know, 17, or 2010, that you find Dhamma. Like, these are not ideas embedded in the book, they're ideas you brought to it, and then worked out in the essay. And that's what makes it so interesting to look at. And it's also on the other hand, just the inverse of that, it would be really interesting to think of, you know, if you had come across these books, three years after your first course, you know how gung ho and fired up you would have been about people that were speaking the same thing you were and talking the same language and into the same thing, and it just reminds you of how important it is, who you are, when you read the book that you do and what you get out of it.
Carl Stimson 2:29:38
Right? Yeah. And also kind of extending on that, you know, I kind of lament the fact that, you know, there aren't books about these kind of later stages of meditation that are you know, a bit more complicated and a bit more, you know, not so clear cut and you know, if anyone out there knows of any books like that, I sure would like to read something.
Host 2:29:57
Yeah, yeah. And you did mention in your your essays You Well, you mentioned that these books are not necessarily great books, in the sense of like great literature. And you compare that to the snow leopard, which you thought was a great book and really did impact you, who you were, and what you lived through at that time. And I'm curious in reading the snow leopard, this is a book that's by Peter Mathias, and I think is how you say his name. It's not a book about meditation. But it is a book about a young Westerner around the same time, who goes to roughly the same area in Nepal, and gets kind of Eastern wisdom to help him with his suffering. And this was a book that as you read in your, your mid 20s, really did have a profound effect on you, at that time and place in your life. And so what, when you think back of this being great literature and how you were affected, at that time and place in your life, what do you recall of that book and of your, your feeling reading it?
Carl Stimson 2:30:51
Well, it's been 20 years, or roughly, since I read it, so I'm afraid I don't recall a whole lot about it. But, you know, it's interesting talking about the different aspects of books and why they're good and why we liked him. But, you know, I do definitely do remember being moved by the snow leopard, in terms of just the language he uses, and, and some of the things he relates, I remember really clearly, him talking about his experience with psychedelics, and just how he became disillusioned with them. And it was just an incredibly beautiful passage, or, you know, section of the book, just him describing the experiences and why he felt like he was over them. And, and it was just really crystallized, like, why he was right, like, why, you know, psychedelics were profound, and maybe even valuable. But in the end, there, there was kind of a limit to how far you can go with them. And, you know, that's not something really, that you get from the Lewis book who, you know, maybe a little bit he, he talks about that, but he doesn't really explore it in detail. But at the same time, like, you know, like you said, that the snow leopard is not a Theravada book, it's not a, I can't remember if it's really explicitly a Buddhist book. So in essence, there's, you know, kind of a sense of distance between, you know, him and his experiences, and my, my experiences were, you know, these three guys, you know, we're all meditating in the Theravada tradition, for the most part, they've been to a lot of places that I've been in Asia, in Burma, and in India, and they talk about teachers that, you know, if I didn't, maybe I meet them, but I know them. And so there's a real feeling of closeness to these guys, even if they're, their books aren't quite up to the level of other books in terms of like, their literary literary value.
Host 2:32:33
Right, right. Sorry, I'm, I'm, I, I'm, I'm wondering if I was kind of stumbling, and probably noticed, I was kind of stumbling when asked.
Carl Stimson 2:32:42
Well, it's been 20 years, or roughly, since I read it. So I'm afraid I don't recall a whole lot about it. But, you know, it's interesting talking about the different aspects of books and why they're good and why we liked him. But, you know, I do definitely do remember being moved by snow leopard, in terms of just the language he uses, and, and some of the things he relates, I remember really clearly, him talking about his experience with psychedelics, and just how he became disillusioned with them. And it was just an incredibly beautiful passage, or, you know, section of the book, just him describing the experiences and why he felt like he was over them. And, and it was just really crystallized, like, why he was right, like, why, you know, psychedelics were profound, and maybe even valuable. But in the end, there, there was kind of a limit to how far you can go with them. And, you know, that's not something really, that you get from the Lewis book who, you know, maybe a little bit he, he talks about that, but he doesn't really explore it in detail. But at the same time, like, you know, like you said, that the snow leopard is not a Theravada book, it's not a, I can't even remember if it's really explicitly a Buddhist book. So in essence, there's, you know, kind of a sense of distance between, you know, him and his experiences and my experiences where, you know, these three guys, you know, we're all meditating in the Theravada tradition, for the most part, they've been to a lot of places that I've been in Asia, in Burma and in India, and they talk about teachers that, you know, if I didn't maybe meet them, but I know them. And so there's a real feeling of closeness to these guys, even if they're, their books aren't quite up to the level of other books in terms of like their literary literary value.
Host 2:34:24
Yeah, yeah, that's great. And it really epitomizes, like that, who you are, at a certain moment, what your station in life is, what you're going through, and the book that finds you that you interact with that book in that way. And just as you described, the way you interacted with the snow leopard, 20 years ago, when you were who you were, and you were reading this and, you know, hey, I mean, I don't think either of us would want to read iron Rand The Fountainhead again, but at the moment that we read that we were both about 19 years old or so that was one of the most impactful books we read at the time. So I think that's really interesting and that you reading this book when you did instead of 15 years earlier, which would have been a different reaction. would have been a completely different review of it or you might not have done any kind of review and just thought this is all worthless. This is time all time I should be spending on on the cushion. And that's what I'm going to do. But instead we we get a review in a podcast out of you because you read it at this station in life.
Carl Stimson 2:35:16
Yeah, well, it's definitely not how most book reviews go. Most book reviews are about, you know, books published kind of in the moment. So reviewing three books from the 1970s is kind of behind the times, but hopefully it's been interesting. Yeah, yeah, it's been great. And is there any last thing you want to add? No, I don't I don't think so. It's been great being on and I appreciate you spending the time talking to me. Okay. Yeah, well, thanks for taking the time to write the essay and have the talk and maybe we'll do another book review one of these days. All right, catch you later.
Host 2:35:55
Hope you found today's episode as enriching and inspiring to listen to, as we all did, working to produce it. While all of the members on our team are either strict volunteers or professionals working for a substantial discount, there is still an unavoidable cost involved in creating each episode. We have limited funds for the remaining content we still hope to be able to produce. And so every additional donation gives our podcast Ron just a little more life. If you would like to hear some more episodes like these and have means to help with even small contributions, any donation goes directly into our fund to cover these overall production costs. Thank you in advance and look forward to seeing you back here next week. If you would like to join in our mission to share the Dhamma from the golden land more widely. We welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Every set goes immediately and directly to sustaining the programming. You can give right on our website via credit card by going to Insight myanmar.org slash donation or through PayPal by going to paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar. We also take donation through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and cash app. In all cases, simply search Insight Myanmar on each platform and you'll find our account. Alternatively, you can also visit our website for specific links to any of these respective accounts. Or feel free to email us at info at Insight myanmar.org in all cases, that's Insight Myanmar, one word spelled i en si gh TMYA and Mar if you would like to give in another way, please contact us. Thank you for your kind consideration. You've been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we would appreciate it very much if you would be willing to rate review and or share this podcast. Every little bit of feedback helps. If you are interested, you can subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or wherever else you get your podcasts. Also, please check out our website for a list of our complete episodes including additional text videos and other information at www dot Insight myanmar.org that's Insight Myanmar one word i en si gh t MYAN Mar. If you cannot find our feed on your podcast player, please let us know and we will ensure that it can be offered there. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode. And we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a POST request specific questions and join in our discussions on the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You are also most welcome to follow our Facebook and Instagram accounts by the same name of Insight Myanmar. And if you're not on Facebook, you can also message us directly at Burma dama@gmail.com. That's b u r m A d h a mma@gmail.com. And we're also active on dama wheel. If you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that forum here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would also like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible, especially our two sound engineers, Martin combs and darnay. There's of course that Kessler content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with editing. Drago spent DITA and Andre Francois produce original artwork and a special Mongolian volunteer who was asked to remain anonymous does our social media templates. We'd also like to thank everyone who assisted us in arranging for the guests we have interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves for agreeing to come and share such powerful personal stories. Finally, we are immensely grateful for the donors made this entire thing possible. We also remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and not necessarily reflective of the host or other podcast contributors. Please also note, as we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show there's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us. This recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes video audio written transcripts and excerpts of any episodes. It is also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we are very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. As you know, our podcasts are 100% listener supported, we welcome your contribution in any amount, denomination and transfer method you may give via patreon@patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar via paypal@paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar or by credit card by going to Insight myanmar.org slash donation. In all cases, that's Insight Myanmar one word I N si gh T, NY and Mar if you'd like to give especially to support our new run of Coronavirus episodes, please go on the GoFundMe site and search Insight Myanmar to find our campaign. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation please feel free to get in touch with us. Thanks and see you next show.