Transcript: Episode 8: Swe Win

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Swe Win, which appeared on April 27, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

 

Host  00:01

Before we get into the following interview, just to note to let you know what's in the pipeline here at Insight Myanmar podcast. Up until now, all of our work has been conventional sit down interviews with a single person discussing their background and perspective, like the one that follows. As great as this format is, we're experimenting with new dynamics as we adapt to better respond to the current crisis. We are now working on upcoming series examining the spread of the coronavirus in Myanmar, especially its impact on monasteries and monastics as well as how meditators are faring around the world. We've also begun a feature called Myanmar Dhamma diaries, in which a single story will be told and then examined for its relevance and understanding Buddhist life in the golden land. But for now, enjoy what's next. As we know this is a very special interview that follows Ay, ay, ay ay ay. ay. Ay ay.

 

01:27

ay. ay.

 

01:31

Ay Ay, ay.

 

01:33

Ay Ay, ay Lisa.

 

Swe Win  01:54

Sway when and I bonded over a decade ago with a shared personal commitment of a passionate meditation. A professional interest in community development. From the time I first met him and began to hear about his background, I felt privileged as an exclusive audience of one, but hope that a wider audience would someday be able to hear his amazing story, which combines an inner journey towards liberation with an outer engagement in political and Humanitarian Affairs. Several times while in the company of fellow meditators, I will try to tell some of the story, but my secondhand accounts could never do them justice. So I'm very happy that we have this emerging podcast platform that allows sway wind to tell his inspiring story in his own words, animated by his intensity and the power of his memories. I actually hadn't seen sway when in several years, and when I called him out of the blue and mentioned the Insight Myanmar podcast, I was starting up, I hoped he might vaguely consider being a guest at some point in the future. Instead, he surprised me by being willing to come and just two days time, which was especially amazing to me considering how much else I knew he was currently balancing his life. He arrives slightly earlier than expected and actually claim that as his daughter was asleep in the car on an unusually cool January evening, he had just 45 minutes to talk. I said that would be up to the length of his answers, and he laughed and promised to be succinct. But fortunately for listeners, he did not limit himself to short perfunctory answers. In the end, he treated us all to a fuller accounting of his compelling story than I initially hoped for. There's certainly a lot of food for thought in this interview, a dedicated passionate meditator from the SN Goenka tradition, and not afraid to use his voice where he sees injustice. Sway one's journey for inner peace has coincided with the outer turmoil he has lived through in this country's recent history. Intensive meditation retreats are no easy matter, wherever in the world one may be, but to undertake that spiritual journey when stability and even basic freedoms are not ensured, adds a lot of weight and immediacy to the contemplation of an each and Duka. Our interview was interrupted by his daughter with a woken and somehow found her way into the recording studio. So we wrapped up and I wish them well thanking them again for their generous time. But as we didn't reach the more recent events and sway one's life during our conversation, I'd like to take a moment to share that here sway when is currently the editor in chief in Myanmar now the youngest recipient of the Ramon magsaysay Award for emergent leadership. He has led investigative reporting into such issues as human rights abuses, corruption, including the family wealth of military generals and more. Is report into a child abuse scandal at a Yangon tailor shop resulted in the resignation of four members of the Myanmar National Human Rights Commission and disciplinary actions against police officers in the township. Sway wind has also been a fierce critic of the ultra nationalist monk, Ashin wirathu and felt that the monastics fiery speeches when so far against the Buddhist teachings that it merited the fracking. This criticism ultimately resulted in the defamation lawsuit, in which he was required to take more than 50 trips from his Yangon home to the Mandalay courtroom, a 36 hour round trip by car and with a threat hanging over his head, the missing events single session would result in him immediately being reprimanded and thrown into jail. Sway when later said that this experience quote has instilled a sense of fear in all newsrooms for covering the Buddhist monks and the nationalist movement and quote, that this kind of harassment awaits any journalist who honestly covers these events. As you can now probably better imagine, there's quite a bit packed into this interview. And it's a privilege and an honor to be able to bring this story to you. Clear your schedule, because this one requires your complete attention. So sweet when it's really great to have you here. Thanks so much for joining us on short notice I'm trying to remember the last time we saw each other I think it was a few years ago. It's definitely been longer than I would have liked. But we we've been busy. And of course, it's been a number of years since we knew each other back at the American Center, where we used to spend some time. I remember the first time we met i i think it was at a party or get together for something of your students that I was attending. from a colleague that was taking care of you, then you came up to me and you said, didn't you go to a group sitting in Adama Jyoti at, you know, sn Goenka center. I said, Yeah, you were there, too. And apparently you would see me from there. So we shared that connection. Sure. Because a decade ago, those were the DS. My magician was very intense. So I was always trying to find like minded individuals to strengthen myself at you early. Yeah. That's why when somebody said American teacher at the American Center is also a meditator. The going, going going car Ganga center. I was intrigued. I wanted to say hello, yes. But I want to do make sure whether the information I was given was accurate. It was accurate. Yeah. I remember. I was so happy to Because I was I, at my time in my early time at the American Center, I hadn't met many people that were in both worlds. And so it was really quite nice to learn that we were sharing the same things at the American Center, but we were also doing the same practice. And that was that was really a different world back then. Yeah, I have two memorable things with you. You took me to see oddities village, right. In 2007, I think in the immediate aftermath of 2007 suffer from revolution. So the road was a steep muddy road. Yeah, yeah. Maddie and baby row. Yeah, no, not only the motorbikes get assessed the CFG billige. Yeah. There there was no car at all, actually, you know, it took like, at least an hour. So uh, do

 

Host  07:59

you have Good memory

 

Swe Win  08:01

that you took me do one of the houses in the village you know yeah who suppose the visitors you know exactly did Saturday Santa. So, we have we have light me at you right at the house. So, I remember that that was the first incident with you. And the another incident is we want to get to to the HANA ordination Hall located at the southern entrance of Shinjuku Gouda, and I remember you complain about the noises coming from the happy war. I agree

 

Host  08:44

that's, that's my world of music.

 

Swe Win  08:46

If I became a ruler of this country, I would outlaw you know, all these you know, noisy you know, pollute a contaminated you know, the environment right. Happy World. Happy World amusement park is Like a very cheap ripoff of Disney World or something and it's right next door to shredder gone but that's so funny that you remember going to see at the GS because I'm just amazed that I mean Burmese people have done so much in taking me to these sites so it's just hearing the story I feel happy that that even though I was only in the country a short time I actually knew about a demo site you didn't I got to take you there so that's really cool. Yeah, but because of that I managed to bring many others Oh, you know to see IDs said that he plays Yeah. Even some foreign Yogi's as well. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the demand surprised. You know, like Yeah, I like this actually. You know, it's funny because some of the sites especially people with GE, they have these guestbooks that foreigner when foreign Yogi's go, they get for them to sign. And one time when I was appealed with GE, they showed me you know, say at the GS meditation center zone, they showed me these guests, but going back I think, like 35 years, just astounding. So you can see You know any dama friend you've ever had who's been here you can track their visit and there's you know business cards or words of gratitude or sometimes pictures even go Anka G's name is in there moto G's name is in there very big names of people who visited have signed it. So, one time I went back and I said, You know, I really would like to see all these guestbooks just take pictures of every page, you know, have have preserved this, this this, this list of everyone who's been and they couldn't find them anywhere. So it took us about an hour to go through all the different places and shelves in the monastery and they eventually pulled it out. They pulled out you know, five books about yay high and, and went through and just looked at these last 35 years. So that's an interesting record. Yeah. So, so that's great. I have a lot to fit in in this time. So let's just start right at the beginning. You mentioned something a little bit about your, your your family where you were brought up your your early circumstances. Yeah, currently I'm a journalist, you know are based here in Angola. I was born and bred here in the same town in yengo. In a new neighborhood, you know, in one of the centralized towns of NGO, so I was born in 1978. So it's just a poor normal family, not my family. But I think I came into contact with the module early since a very young age, actually. If I have to, if I have to cite Crg going Gods teori, actually, about the demo, I will see I brought a dharmapala with me from the last life from the last slide. All right. So I think I indicated the kind of person but I only knew about that, after having pride is, you know, yeah, the reverse of that melody. shall get to that.

 

Host  11:59

We'll get to that. So, what was your what attitude did your family have about religion or Dhamma practice as you were brought up?

 

Swe Win  12:06

Yeah. Do do be fair, actually, my parents are good nature, honest, a sutra and generous family. But their honesty, I will say is just moderate actually nothing strict, nothing serious, you know, that you will sometimes they may break, you know, this sila, or de sila, the small, small rules that you will particularly regarding the rule governing just the oral communication that you had verbal communication that you really know. Right. Right Speech privacy. So, so that's the right vocabulary actually, you know, so not a very strict sila family and we'll see, to be fair, to be fair, but do you agree dot easttown they're very generous, very simple minded family. I think all Family is the most generous family in the entire neighborhood. When ever my father got something, he started thinking about sharing. Give me a free party. Free party party is not an assembly of the Western party actually, you know, cooking something like opening your doors everywhere, right? We don't even know if addition, Uh huh. We never have the idea of imitation. The idea of imitation is very,

 

Host  13:30

very new thing. It's a Western concept. Yeah.

 

Swe Win  13:32

Even the appointment

 

Host  13:34

or just the doors are open people walk in Yeah,

 

Swe Win  13:37

you just invite the man's right. Nobody invited to invite it just a lot. Hey, we have you know, we we are who this Ramadi Odessa, Mali. On this day actually, we just separate out the word jewelry from one person to another. Everyone is invited. First got First off, it was specially arranged bat for any particular passage. Yeah, my father would work anywhere from the street. He doesn't care. You know whether the food is love for any early passes or honoring a passing. Kevin right. He wouldn't care. He never cared.

 

Host  14:14

So that was being kind of an environment. Environment sometimes

 

Swe Win  14:17

the board can the balls Buddhists abort, right? Did you know that stuff with the gym? novices at you were my father would not tolerate that. You know, my father said, You must bring everyone from the from the monastry.

 

Host  14:34

Everyone. So he really had quite a generosity. Yeah,

 

Swe Win  14:37

everyone.

 

Host  14:38

Yeah. So it was that the this quality of generosity was that kind of the main feature that you saw of the Dhamma practice or the religion, the Buddhist religion coming out growing up

 

Swe Win  14:47

is yesterday is yesterday. Yeah. Right. And so then, as you went through life, I was referencing some things about you before the interview and I refresh my memory that you had a really deep And early desire and love of British literature that you really got into it. And this was a time in Myanmar, this was before the you know, the Information Age came to the rest of the world fairly not so long ago. But the difference between the information age in the West and what came before it in terms of the internet wasn't that great. We had libraries in such in Myanmar, it's like, you know, the last five or 10 years, I felt like 200 You know, we're living with Wi Fi and internet now. But back then you could barely buy books, you had to rent books or you had to borrow them, you had very little access to it. So how, how did you get ahold of those books at an early age, I think very much, very much concerned with the conditions we grew up in. So, this is an isolated society. Yeah. The labor of the poverty, the level of the governance actually. So you have so many things in command, you know, with the events which have been in the western war, like 200 years.

 

Host  16:00

300 years ago, so like 15 years ago, like two or 300 years ago here.

 

Swe Win  16:05

So, sometimes you cannot express, you know, what you've been going through, but you find that you know, you find these expressions in these old literature Ah, interesting. So, for example, I always feel we have so many Dickensian family you know, in our neighborhood right? In dead dick, you know, we have some people you know, who negligently torturing their children at the ciera are not sent to school actually, you know, so, there are so many cases, you know, which I can resonate, you know, with, with the current does in the old beauty literature. So, this is the main point. This is the major cause, behind my interest, you know, English literature actually it's

 

Host  16:55

on 19th century British literature resemble 21st century

 

Swe Win  17:00

Younger neighborhoods yeah 20 some jewelry I was 20 century right? It subdued it still remains are very much reflective of the 21st century Bama as we're actually right. So that's how I came to love the British literature actually.

 

Host  17:15

Right. And you also referenced that and I'm wondering if this has changed now you referenced really not caring for modernity and actually had held in some kind of regard ted kaczynski, who was the unabomber, who wrote some treatises against the the advent of identity and that you, you to say nothing of his terrorism, which I'm sure we both implore. But in terms of his theory that it would it be fair to say that you shared a sense of his fear and disdain for what the modern world was bringing?

 

Swe Win  17:44

Yeah, it certainly is. Yesterday, our generation first started struggling actually, you know, very painfully with this modern culture, actually, the new generation, they will they will strike off even more painful the new generation, not As the bomb is generation of the entire washer sure tower, they will miss so many gifts, the nature you know, into the humanity, which have now been destroyed by all these you know, modern you know, modern wauchula modern modernity for example, if you if you want to live peacefully that we need a peaceful environment also 100 years ago or hundred 50 years ago, actually people kept so much from the nature very easily right, you know, but now, we would become completely slaves at you early, you know, to the walk, you know, to our survivor mothers at you early just for the sake of survival and we just die at you, you know, there is no space for the greater such as, you know, greater causes actually, you know, so That's how I was very, very much worried about a jewelry you know, right. So this is really interesting because then as you were, I think you were starting to enroll in university in 1996. And so you're interested in you know, the concepts of 19 the concepts of 19th century British literature, you're concerned about the role of nature being diminished by modernity. I take it your Dhamma practice probably hadn't really gained form yet at this stage. But kind of set the scene for for who you were and what was happening right as you start to, and you know, when you're a young man at this time, you're, you know what, 2122 something years old. This is a time at any any country in the world where you're you're struggling with your identity, you know, who you're having new ideas take hold of you and your, your, you know, people of that age are kind of trying these ideas on for size and seeing who they are and how they fit and what they believe. And this is all happening to you as you enter university but your universe The experience was not a normal experience that you'd have in other countries. So maybe you can share a little bit about that time. Yeah, you were looking for a fun ground at you early, you know, due to stamp to stamp at you early. So, in those day, we were under the impression that we're just looking for a political system that was not enough for me, you know, I always thought there must be higher goals, there should be higher goals, just besides all these you know, political changes actually, you know, political objectives, there should be higher goals for for me, what is that actually, what is that? What is that? So, I am struggling with with all these identity questions Who I am right to know what I'm striving for, which is normal. So, in throes of such as actually, you know, searching for, for something right? All right, so those these Yeah, but that was happening at a time at a very difficult time in Myanmar history. So it wasn't just a normal young man trying to find his way in the world. Maybe you can describe a little bit about what was the university and educational system like in Myanmar at the time that you were just becoming a student, I went to the University actually, you know, I wanted to become a novelist. But that was not a very intense school actually. Now, I wanted to find like minded individuals, you know, you cannot find a like minded individuals in a small neighborhood, you know, the greater you know, the space, you know, the geographic area, a greater chance of you finding similar like minded individuals. So, this is the this is the main purpose of me going to the university which is normal. That's why kids everywhere go to university Not for education that you Okay, sure, sure. No for education, and not even for the politics. Political was, but the secondary. Right. You know, I wanted to engage with the people of my generation.

 

Host  22:16

And what happened when you got there is that when I was you find what you're looking for?

 

Swe Win  22:20

No, it was a complete disappointment. disappointment. First, the sister is so bad actually, the University was no different than a concentration camp or I would say, a prison that you weren't

 

Host  22:35

how students

 

Swe Win  22:37

were, were forbidden to visit each other, if the if they belonged to the different facilities. For example, I belong to the I belong to the ESA humanities. I cannot go and visit my friend at the science department. Why not? Many lecturer us university lecturer. So during their spare time they have to walk a security guys oh at their respective department to prevent the students of different different forget is coming at you any sort of mobilization was surprised that you added sort of mobilization mobilization right. The the university lessons were so awkward, so awful. There was no library at all. No library at all. Just for the namesake actually the universities were ranee Edu Ali, you know, the wear the color cannot be even compared to a normal high school good High School actually. They are way below the standard of you know, even the high school labor. It was first it was a huge disappointment. But I can tolerate easily because it is expected but my bigger disappointment is people have migraines Russia are not disappointed. As much as I was.

 

Host  24:03

So you're, you're disappointed that other people aren't as disappointed as you Yeah.

 

Swe Win  24:07

Other people find this is all normal. You know, do any of these all these years, you know, at the university and finish the school, we just see certificate, we just a signature from the university. I mean, the department is meaningless. Actually, those two people are really crazy for this university certificate, because you have no access to the outside world more. No other education opportunities, no private school, very difficult to even to get a passport to travel when everyday is was so scarce and limited. This certificate is so important. It's so important. Many people are choosing after I never care, not because I'm genius. I never cared too early for the certificate or for finishing a class or school. I never cared too early. If I find something interesting. I will study it without thinking about how it is We'll be useful for the exam or that exam or this is a, I wouldn't care.

 

Host  25:04

You just had a love of love. Yeah, love of knowledge. So So when

 

Swe Win  25:07

by people, you know, by our generation very, very terrible Actually, this is the biggest disappointment actually, but not everyone Actually, there is also always a very tiny minority of students who share the same sentiment actually.

 

Host  25:27

Right. So, what did you do when you found yourself in this kind of situation?

 

Swe Win  25:30

Actually, I was always I was always very angry. And then I realized I should not spend time either at the campus or I should not spend time for all these University lessons as you will. I should do something meaningful that you already so I will go to go to downtown areas of yongle and go to the book Street and get hooked on the you know, cancel and pass. Very old books. Yeah, I bought a collection. have tickets that you wish, which were published in the light in 19th century, the century in Bombay original book, yeah, origin etc. So, I try I, you know, I collect a mob of songs, check calls, toss, tries, etc got most of the books, most of the books those days either be rich or the Russian that you early in those days we have a lot of Russian influence, ideologically here in our catalogue some great literature. Yeah. So, I spent time you know, I spent time going through all these books that you weren't actually I did not, I did not manage to understand you. But I never cared one thing, Flicka in my mind. Understanding is understanding the content is not my job. Reading is my job under the same contract nouns in the meditation meditating is my job. Whether there is progress or not, whether I got Elijah or not

 

Host  27:06

no so it's just putting in the effort Yeah,

 

Swe Win  27:07

yeah trying to absorb the sila right as much as possible try to meditate, but currently as you're in a correct way right, whether there is progress or not right. So, the same goes I can apply you know, with all these books are really trying to struggle with all these books reading through these hundreds of pages of books, you know, what I

 

Host  27:30

want and can I ask what language for these books with these in English in English, okay, the Russian literature also learning

 

Swe Win  27:35

English. So, I started to understand you know, all these things within a matter of two years that you know, you land naturally early you be unconscious mind is absorbing that you really do try to you try to read carefully, even though you don't understand you know, you're trying to you try to gorge As you already know, the contest actually. It was so difficult to bring All these bulls first, because of the language barrier, the second, you don't know the contest at Archer contests. I don't know what's going on. I don't know the history. You never learned the history, you have no way to find out. So it's so difficult,

 

Host  28:15

right? So from that time being a young student to disappointed in, not just the university education, but also in your contemporaries. From that point, somehow you got yourself into very difficult circumstances of eventually finding your way into a prison cell. So I wonder if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about how that journey took place.

 

Swe Win  28:37

So I was 19 then 20 it was in 2000. Sorry, it was in 9797 1998. I went to university in 1990 says, but a few months after I, you know, I, I was attending the University the university will or shut down because of the student protests. In one of which I participated, and then two years later, also CG issue or Demeter, also Sue Jones. So Joshua, how party our body is your ultimatum saying that the military must convene the parliament based on the results of the 1990 elections, in which her party won the last night Petri. They must convene at the parliament based on the results, the particular elections that you will need within a period of 45 days. And then she was holding solo hunger strikes on the Oscars of yankel. So I wanted to support her not because I'm a fan of harsh or I'm a Buddha, just just a difference trans girlfriend to each other, a woman, I confront him, you know, army of 300,000 or 400,000. So I just want to support a weaker person that I found an opportunity to express my anger of everything I do early. You know what This I guess this is I grew up with you know, etc. So I was involved in student protests and then I was thrown into g sun as to 21 years on three charges the first charge is breaking the national security art and other is related with the printing and publishing you know law etc violating the printing and publishing at cetera because I was caught with some anti government power flows at home as you're doing your rate i'd immature intelligence in 1998. September actually. So I was son to our son to three different reasons first instinct reason he I angle and then later to manually prison and then to ninja in prison.

 

Host  30:53

Right all over the country. Yeah, yeah. And what were those prison conditions like

 

Swe Win  30:59

The first two years were very, very horrible, actually, very horrible. At Myingyan prison, where I was transfered in 1999, I was beaten by a group of criminals and the under the direct supervision of the prison officers. Actually, I was bitten like a dog. I was dragged to an open field and beaten. So I came into contact with the first serious dukkha... dukkha....dukkha....dukkha. Oh, I am just 20, and I am going to serve 21 years. How can I survive? So suicidal thoughts came to me. It is not because I was fed up with everything. I just thought I should not suffer! You know, for all these coming years like this, at least mentally I could get out, if I commit suicide. But I was not that foolish enough to commit such an act. I never thought it would be a right decision, actually. So yeah, I was starving in those days, so much so that I felt like biting my own thigh. Oh, my thigh is here, actually. Why do I keep it? You know, just the human instinct of craving of something when you were deprived of everything, you know? And then there was a very big, powerful experience and I started undergoing the process of soul-searching after one year, nobody is beating you soon. 'You are just confined to a cell, but why are you suffering? You just keep quiet.' I was reminded, and then yes, what is happening? Now, I have proper food. My family came to give me some food. Now I have food. Yes, a few weeks ago, I was dead. Now I have a some food now. I can survive now, at least for a week. You know, I was not going starve actually. So why do you keep grumbling and crying? I realized not because I was being beaten! Not because I was not having enough food, but because I was cut off access to the usual stimuli I was so familiar with. Before I got thrown into jail, I was very much attached to my radio, to all these literature books, I was so much attached. So, these are only two types of stimulus. I was I was dependent upon.

 

Host  34:28

there was no internet back at that time.

 

Swe Win  34:29

Yeah. So, all these stimulis, you know. I started telling myself, 'You are suffering, not because you are being beaten, not because you are not having good food, but because you are cut off of your usual stimuli. So, I was shocked! What is the type of freedom I want? The freedom I want exists outside. So there is not a real freedom! Because something outside, something external, can be taken from you at any point, for any reason, at any point of your life! That dependence, that type of dependence, the type of attachment, is so fragile. And I realized I was looking not just for the democracy, not just for the liberty, I have to find for the type of freedom, by which I mean, you will no longer depend on anything outside of your mind and body, your body and mind. So, this is the first thought which came to be after a year. So

 

Host  35:41

it's interesting because you're describing being in really difficult circumstances and using kind of a thought process or thought experiment to investigate this cause of suffering and a layout of suffering. But as you're doing this, you don't correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you don't really have access To a Dharma teacher, you don't have access to a therapist. You don't have access to any pen and paper, or even appear to have the discussions You don't even have access to any Dhamma books at this time to be able to refer to so it sounds like you're you're doing an entire Dhamma investigation therapeutic psychological investigation entirely on your own and and coming out with this is that correct?

 

Swe Win  36:25

Is that the something very strange took place? Six months after I got thrown into G. It was insane. That's the name of the jail is insane, insane. Insane, is imprisoned, very notorious here. Somebody was talking about the story of solo CR da da. From from the Tao of ninja above epimedium somebody was talking about how solo Seattle reach enlightenment. Even though he was Jesse, just a farmer

 

Host  36:57

was someone in the prison. That's telling you this

 

Swe Win  36:59

nice me okay Joe Joe some fellow political prisoner, okay okay. So, he was talking about that and I was so intrigued with the story you know, and then I immediately wanted the corner of my face and I just sat down cross like this is the first time this is first magically push our agenda at MoMA something very strange about complete dissolution took place immediately actually this Can you describe that experience

 

Host  37:33

with decision

 

Swe Win  37:35

I felt like I was in a gal galaxy galaxy. And then I hear the sound of audit activities within my physical body. Every, every song actually, even the smallest. This the movement of the smaller veins I hear everyday. So the five areas and the hot area the LA area bigger songs is like it And you know, being played just needs to be very last songs, we are moving actually from side to side actually, you know, and then the the philosophy when we were you know, the Buddhist philosophy we are familiar with since try who was there is only one by one you are thinking about one thing that you really you cannot think about another day, but at that moment, my mind has like, millions of miles you know, they are embedded, we are embedded with all these physical experiences, the

 

Host  38:34

awareness is moving very fast at times, yeah.

 

Swe Win  38:36

So, millions of miles are taking place such emotion as you early so, are aware of also there is no something like something fan is a broker actually, you know, you're like in the galaxy edge early. And I see this very, you know, just one or two moment a jewel, whatever.

 

Host  38:58

So, that was the moment you sat down Yeah,

 

Swe Win  39:01

I just close my eyes. And that just took place. I hope I close, I open my eyes very, very quickly. And then

 

Host  39:10

I caught up and how long have you been in prison at this point?

 

Swe Win  39:13

Justice man, okay. No magician for ever prefer in your life? Not even Urbana. Yeah, I did. I never knew about you and Aparna there was a few moments, a few moments and I realized there are many times in the insights you know, I was always looking for something something strange actually in the outside. I was always angry with the commercial regime, because you know, I was cut off communication to the outside wall. So I don't know much about the outside wall, you know. So my, my SSD information has to die. So I was now I realized so many tears inside, what's going on and I asked Sounds eerily Parsons in the prison political prisoners in their 60s or 70s. Something happened to me, do you know what happened? You know, I have this is real, and that they said they don't know actually. So does it but I, I, I know, I didn't know probably this editor, actually, only a year and a half later Actually, I got a very heated argument with a fellow political prisoner, just for the meaning of communism at democracy, etc, you know, right. So, I got a I got an argument, I got a heated argument with him. I first I was bullied, you know, just bodily bully by this passage, you know, he said three times four degrees. You know, crazy for three days, you know, so I felt like I was being bullied too early. So I got a very I got very angry with him. So much to my blog. was boiling over pretty girly boy over realize I missed come down I must come down I must come down and I already got some Dima books by the time you know the ICC came in. So through the negotiations with the Who is this the ICRC the international comedy for the record right

 

Host  41:22

so they were able to negotiate provide access to certain kinds of books and what how many years were you in prison before you had access to reading in

 

Swe Win  41:29

2001 that you early so almost three, so two

 

Host  41:32

years without any reading or writing materials I think you would reference before that it was um, prisoners who were caught with a pen and paper had a greater punishment and those caught with a knife.

 

Swe Win  41:42

He said that he Yeah, during the first two years that you early you know, you any type of any piece of paper is illegal. Not just the people, you know, they we will allow to keep like a few clothes and then some food etc. anything besides this idea is illegal. So when my family Kay de Bresse snares all these snares they have this logo that's the logo with the paper actually they always take out right so that the political prisoner cannot communicate around each other, but we do communicate you know, we we write on there, we write something on the cluster paths plus tip plus the place as early you know, I don't know how to use you know, in our country people to beat or they use lie actually, you know, white collar. So, from the people who who who choose, you know, who may be do we borrow ly and then pieces actually use the two on the on a plastic place, and then you can use a some sort of small bamboo stick to buy something because you can still communicate it edge early, right? I think we are just like fools actually. We are Just trying to stimulate each other, because we don't have anything internally something dumb to bow, we can depend on it early. So we are just trying to stimulate with each other, induce these early. So in 2001 I see, you know, there's two ICRC Fs, we were allowed to reject only dimov books that the marbles with their logo of the Ministry of Religious Affairs none other than marbles you know. So, only with a C or their, you know, logo see a logo of the Ministry of religious affair, because in most of these models, you have the approval, you know, this is the license number or you know, right approval approval number from the Ministry of Religious Affairs. Only these type of religious books will allow a Jew, right? I managed to, you know, read those books actually, for the first three or four years that you already so that was good actually. I could not really any other book actually. So I spent I, I was fooled too early to read these Dima books or BMR and sometimes even venia A sutra It was so boring all these books, you know, without really a meditative experience was super, you cannot understand

 

Host  44:18

right? Did you begin to practice based on these books or based on your first experience? So that was that was so powerful,

 

Swe Win  44:23

actually, after my argument with the fellow political prisoner, and  I realized I must practice metta meditation and I found myself full of anger. How can I break this meta, and then something flagger I managed to improvise something as you work. According to the demand balls, you cannot write this with a melody ship, if you have Anka or Erie, but I cannot assert that I cannot assert I have no other meditation technique to come out of anger. So I must do something. I saw some vocabularies in the dimmable Call alaba A Maha lava is the Greek, Aunty, you know, non Greek and you know, the Buddha does not preach just about the Greek or, you know, Anka, he also talks about the bearers of Nan. Nan Greek, no, no anger, no no hatred, no hatred and metta might be synonymous, but they are not the same.  You know, yeah, sometimes you cannot start with the with the love with the pure love. So you have to, you have to start with a lower level. Anger. Yeah, anger. Yeah, you know, noon Greek actually. So, I found, okay. I have full of anger. So I must turn it around. Okay. I know Safari, I am suffering from confinement and suffering from starvation and suffering for anger. So Having all these miseries all the people in the outside wall or in the freezer may be free from the Safari and now undergoing may they be free from the anger, which is a flood to me, anger is so intense, I imagine so in turn, so maybe we free from this type of anger, maybe be free from may not be the people who you know who inflict mental injury or physical injury or individuals or individuals because they work a lot of problems as you will know as a foreign because somebody put me to G at you early. So I realized about all these pains that you will so may or may not be the people who does misery to others or who received the misery for others that you may be free from, or the miseries and ugly. We know with the tears fall And occasionally for falling from our eyes actually, maybe be free, maybe free either some flicker, I must do this around the clock. I don't know I have nothing else to share, do you know I have nothing else to do just a few demand book, you know, I have read over over again. So you know, I have no no other food, you know? So I must do this. I have no appointment, nobody to toe with so I must do this DNI as long as my eyes are open, my practice must continue. Continue as you early when I have food. I must mentally think that people have access to food, like me. So when I sleep, oh, I have no better entity actually. Like a year ago. People get a chance to sleep like this. You know, I miss my family members. I miss my mother. I study feeling pain, people be liberated from the separation with the loved ones and then after two or three days my I am physically over one with love, I feel you know the messenger is so hot actually is a very topic area generally they are very low rainfall actually you know during the rainy season so, the heat was so intense actually but at the peak of my metar actually I felt like I have a condition equity issue, equity issue, very small and powerful air conditioners is tops, all the pores of my skin. And I felt like I was put in a vacuum a vacuum. You know, they are following me. They are falling as long as I am with mitta actually, you know i in very cool atmosphere. I study. Enjoy all the pleasure Oh pleasure transitions as early as de When I fall asleep, it's like a few, a few minutes, even though it's the sleep is as long as eight hours I realized about the meaning of sleep, if we have mental problems, if our sila is not pure, even if our sila is pure if our manded manda defoamers continue to visit, we cannot have probably because they disturb us, you know, every time actually, whenever possible, actually, they are disturbed as at a very deep level of the unconscious mind Actually, yeah. Now, you know, happiness Lee is like walking through a very clean, you know, very clean, I would say grassy low, you know, a low actually, you know, it's a proper law proper, proper, well maintained law, actually very clean. She just waterproof the law. It's like 50 feet. You walk through the lawn, and other people walk through the same area, but all the muddy, you know, fill with all these stones are spies, you know, maybe snakes and poisons. So the same area, you know, people cross it, you name it, this area, this is your sleep area. This is your area, we pass through this, this area, but I passed

 

Host  50:23

very quickly. And you were in Janice's hometown of someone said, Oh, yeah. So then after how many years into your prison? Did you start this intensive metta practice in 2001

 

Swe Win  50:37

and 2001 and from that time, did you continue every day? I continue, but I, I became obsessed with the demand and that I realized entrepreneur should be their main business. The main piece of all the meditation techniques. My Miko situation became very strong with the mid ta either Really both, and I felt just the necessity to sit down. And you know, during my metta meditation practice, I always walking up and down, up and down. Even though Mikasa Trisha became stronger and stronger, but I thought I needed to sit in puja for the anapana should be the most conducive to work in. So, I practice I began to practice on upon a very deep level of concentration I got, but after two years, I start having problems.

 

Host  51:32

How did you learn how to practice on a partner just by reading or trial and error experiments reading just was there a particular Sado Dhamma teacher that you know No.

 

Swe Win  51:40

So are you numerical? Also be sure you know, the breath going in and go out? I see one, you know, that you say for you count from one to nine. So right after night, another All right. So I want to know Ladies, Sara, no, I just found it at your I don't remember. Okay, so, so, so easy, but he became to actually feel the transition, but I don't know for this association Sure, sure. at all, but I felt like you know, you know, Microsoft Russia is like it's a threat is a threat being dragged through pillow a pillow, you know, I surprised I saw my mother, you know, she is stitched at the pillow at you early, you know? So she can imagine you know, inside the pillow, all the stuff I don't know how to call it in English as well you know, stuffing and stuff etc. You know, so you take it out. How do you feel a

 

Host  52:47

little by little threadbare. Yeah,

 

Swe Win  52:49

I felt like my heart is bloated and go into different duration. The mind chain is going down into you know, going down under Have to control you know. So the my meditation does not get damaged by all these very intense meditation that you were not into Association Surely, you know, in association, I felt like I have no longer breath, actually, you know, to take edge early, you know, I felt like, Oh, my abdomen is cut in love that actually like, though, maybe three feet or five feet, oh, maybe a sutra.

 

Host  53:31

So it sounds I mean, it's incredible. It sounds like for four years day after day you're doing this intensive meditation practice, without any teacher without any other fellow meditator without any one to report without even really knowing what your methodology is. You're, you're just reading this. You know, you're reading the Donald books you have that aren't necessarily meditation guides. They're more of these very technical, you know, kinds of literature about video and other things and you're just trying to piece together by yourself in your jail cell how to form a practice out of it. And then when the results come and you're having these experiences you don't understand you're having to be your own island and finding a way to continue.

 

Swe Win  54:13

I felt like I was going to be crazy. I'm going to be crazy. I found the power of the concentration. I felt like my IP scanner is a real cat scanner. So if I'm really bog, I made the determination that my concentration should not move from one word to another. So I I played with my I started playing with my meditation kriebel from the for the power of premium for the power of concentration and I made a determination that micro concentration must be undivided concentration going from one word to another, and the end of the at the end of the page. I should be able to memorize everything Hmm. So I I possess That's sort of Irish at one point, at one point. Wow. So, so I was in a delirium at early delirium. And I was always looking at my meditation place, which would which is made with my blanket. On looking, oh, I wanted to go there all the time, all the time. And at one point, you know, within five minutes or a few minutes, after I sit down, I have the highest, very high concentration, but at one point, no consideration.

 

Host  55:34

What happened? Sure, it's changed

 

Swe Win  55:36

that I tried to force myself to concentrate. The stronger the foods I studied have a bigger problem. Sure, yeah. bigger problem, whereas Microsoft fusion, whereas Microsoft Russia, there Oh, if I cannot concentrate our continued to meditate, another hour, another hour, four hours, three hours, okay through all the night and at one point, I start Appropriate colors actually, you know, at the meditation place and the estrogen cry, I should I play with all these magnesia This is dangerous. Somebody told me don't do meditation. This is very dangerous. You will go crazy. You know, if you don't meditate with the guidance of a teacher, I don't care. Now, my friend's suggestion is now proven to you see the value go crazy. Yeah, no, I mentally saw the Buddha actually. And I try. I try. I regain restore my concentration. But very strong. Sankara at the time. I don't know what it's Sankara came up to the surface. I wanted to keep people with the Chapin materials. somebody walked in front of myself with a spate and I just Imagine I read through the passage and then kill him with a spate. Somebody walk just empty handed in front of myself, that person and myself is separated by barbed wire. Then the imagination came out that I took out the buff wire and again actually, then I walk up and down in myself, I could not walk because I felt like I was walking on the house of Buddha, Buddha, whatever, you know, I I pace I made peace actually. I can walk. I know what happened. What happened? Oh, my video amortization is gone my algebra but it is go. I started pulling through my de marbles. What are the consequences for the petals that you are going to hear?

 

Host  57:52

So how did you get out of that?

 

Swe Win  57:55

I try another form of judicial copertina teacup or patina, right? It's called just scanning you are all your bones Actually, I realized maybe I missed suits I might be so attached with their you know, with the concentration. So, so that I get an understanding of the real nature of this, this body framework, I should practice you know, this, this meditation technique or you know, just as a patient of all your bones early, you know, all your, so, this is the first this is the, this, this may be the first entry into reverse now, because you first start scanning just your bones as you are right, I scan all these bombs, etc. and then see all these, you know, sunkara ski, I tried to force us all these days, and at one point I found in my book that you know, just this one mecalac don't give importance neglect. Yeah, neglect Don't give importance, if you give importance, they will just do your work. Because they are they are also they also have the nature of impermanence. I found that and then I realized, okay, I would no longer care about all these thoughts, you know, but this is a salted Buddha or any other path, right. So under

 

Host  59:22

rising passing, this is not I, how many hours a day are you meditating at this point?

 

Swe Win  59:26

Just three hours early, but, you know, when I was in throes of all these projects, sure, I will meditate like four or five, but I will always take take a precise every Tuesday or Wednesday, at least once a week or two days a week and that will those the I will meditate as much as possible as early as possible. All

 

Host  59:48

right. So, you carried on this regimen until the end of your prison years.

 

Swe Win  59:53

Yeah, yeah. So, from 2001 up until 2005 when I got released in general nst so in 2003, and 2004, I knew that I was going to I was going to be released, even though I was severe 21 year old surnames, because some of my friends were already released an STL in a previous nst. So I might be released in nst. But I felt like I didn't want to go up, oh, I don't want to go. Now, I have all these you know, very interesting experiences, actually, I in to my Actually, I want to, I want to calibrate it, you know, for the presure but at the same time, all these experiences were quickly, you know, you know, and am I, and then, and then, you know, in a digital war, actually, you know, and so I should, I should hold Oh, how can I, how can I keep holding all these experiences actually, you know, after I get out of the breeze, one part of me is I don't want to go I don't want to get out. This is so good. Actually. Now I, I begin used to the prison life as well, you know. So I managed to adopt adapt myself to the conditions in prison life as well. And I also found the experience of meditation as well. So one part of Manasa I don't want to go, I don't want to go. So nothing is meaningful in the also war, whether firms of the same age, you know, go to foreign countries or get this degree or that degree. I don't care actually. I have. No, I haven't. Very, very wonderful experiences. Hmm.

 

Host  1:01:38

So I had Island comments on the podcast last week. And he spoke about the role of Dhamma practice in Myanmar, specifically, how it's different from in Myanmar here, than the intensive retreats, and other more stable countries. So for example, someone living in a stable life in a free society. Of course, they're going to be challenged during a passionate course to confront their greed, their hatred and delusion. This is not a light matter, of course, however, this is really nothing compared to someone undertaking the Dhamma practice whose own freedom, safety, home and family can all be taken away. You've certainly undertaken your own meditation practice in very difficult conditions and environment. And so I'm curious what your view is on this and how the practice might take a different shape in these difficult circumstances versus the typical very safe retreat setting.

 

Swe Win  1:02:27

I do not have a clear answer. Because If you say people who meditate in other countries have a greater opportunity to develop their Dhamma I think it should be misleading, actually misleading  People who have access to the proper rule of law, education, etc., they don't stand a good chance of developing Dhamma: It's also a wrong theoryia generally, you know, on theory,   are pros and cons, I will say, for me growing up here in this country. I can fully appreciate, strongly appreciate, the aspects of Dukkha. Because this is the first level, without the understanding, proper understanding, a greater understanding of the Dukkha, we cannot reach the liberation point at all, the greater appreciation of the Dukkha, the nearer we become to the final goal. If you combine that with the practice So, here  [in Myanmar] we are in a greater position. For example, just a few months ago I was struggling with the problems, and I felt like I was on the verge of death. I felt like I was about to die. I did not have proper access to healthcare here in this country. So and then, just three weeks ago, somebody tried to kill me during one of my family trips in Rakhine State. I was shot in my leg and I survived, but somebody tried to kill me. So, life is sensitive, it's so fragile, it's precarious in this country. So you can appreciate the Dukkha. Also, you can appreciate the nature of karma: for anything to happen, there must be some cause. So it's deeply entrenched, for us in this kind of country. I've been to develop countries like Germany, Sweden, United States, other countries. My imagination is if I got an opportunity to live, I spend the rest of my life there! I will have a better opportunity, I think so, to meditate, because you don't get disturbed by all the troubles of your life. You have the dilemma, the greatest dilemma facing many people here in this country is, as a meditator, sometimes you want to devote yourself to the meditation, but you're cannot sign up [for a course] when something bad is going on. If your practice is very strong, if your practice is very mature, you cope with it, in a quiet way, in a meaningful way. But before we reach the level of maturity, we are at a junction, a very painful junction. I want to be fully Dhamma, let the Dhamma take its course. But I cannot let the Dhamma take its course, not because I lack confidence in Dhamma, but because I haven't reached the maturity in the Dhamma. So this is the problem. When there is political turbulence, I cannot keep quiet. I want to do something. I felt like that my metta is not enough. Because your metta is not strong, you will definitely feel it is not enough. When your metta is really strong, you will feel it is enough.

 

Host  1:07:16

So then after your prison, you came out and I understand that eventually you took up practice at the passionate centers in the tradition of sn Goenka. Where did you hear about the centers and how did you find your initial experience?

 

Swe Win  1:07:30

Yeah, my, my brother is also a student of going car. So once I got out, actually, I went to the nearest temples on gudas in my town to meditate every morning, because this is a bommies house you have no privacy. Right? Right. This is good actually for purposes that you really you know, yeah. So but the bad thing is you have no motivation please. And you feel embarrassed you fishy Yeah, country, you know, if you have any data, you know, uh, yeah, it if we, you know, I don't want to insult the elderly people in the family actually, you know. So I go out to some secluded temples and pagodas in my neighborhood. And then my, my brother, who is the student of green car, saw that he took me today, to my Jyoti, clinica Santa was I read about the cause? I said, This is what I've been looking for. This is this is exactly what I will look for. I will be coming to the Wi Fi actually, you know,

 

Host  1:08:38

how soon after being released. Did you take your course?

 

Swe Win  1:08:40

I took the course in September Actually, I was released in July. Oh, five. Yeah, four, five. So just several months. Yeah. So though, I do the cause. denticles that was the most powerful goals. One of the most powerful, one of one of the very powerful causes. I have to go so far too early. You know? I Now, because of the eponymous tradition metta meditation, in prison, I managed to

 

Host  1:09:06

assimilate. It's interesting because it sounds like you were doing a lot of the components of the glenkinchie technique, but you didn't really know the order. You couldn't really make sense of your experience. You didn't really know how to interpret what was happening to you, but you had all the pieces just organically. So it sounds like when you went into a passion, of course in the tradition of sn Goenka and you were learning that systematically, I imagine must have not seen someone familiar.

 

Swe Win  1:09:32

Yeah, it's like, you know, fit a heavy Yamal jar joining Avi edgerly. You're ready. Hello? Yes, sir. The causes? No, you don't have to. You don't have to prepare yourself. You don't have to spend time preparing yourself actually, you're ready to order. All this intense exercise. You're ready. I instantly appreciate the intensity. That's what I need the company signer. That's what I need. intensity. That's what I need to do early. Yeah.

 

Host  1:10:03

Yeah. So that set you on the path path of continuing to practice professional and courteous tradition.

 

Swe Win  1:10:08

Yeah. And I found this is the technique which I will practice for the rest of my life. I will not change. Even metta secondary. Right. So this is because I never reached the area of wisdom. You know, inside. Sure inside. I was playing with sila Samadhi. Uh huh. But never reached the proper of wisdom.

 

Host  1:10:40

You know, and it was those two passionate forces that brought you to that stage. Yeah,

 

Swe Win  1:10:45

yeah. Now you realize how the purifications you know, process takes place that you never realize, but in the prison, what I want my concentration is very strong. I study playing with the Mindfulness actually, okay, you know, if I test something I try to I don't I don't I didn't understand about the about the association. I just tried to understand about the nature of the activities actually. Okay I touch it. Now I let it go. So this is impermanent. At one MoMA saw explosion took place it's like something being bad actually outside physically outside actually something bad actually inside. So, I began to understand how the banning of the old style you know,

 

Host  1:11:37

the burning of the old stuck,

 

Swe Win  1:11:39

Sankara, please please Israeli and the home the new Sankara also formed this was during the passionate graduate. Right, I realized all right, I have so many, so many. So many either, I realized I will be still in a position to create so many sunkara there's so many new sancar So the same sunkara, we just the sink are rusty, they will resonate the Oh, and you resonate with each other, and they will develop will form right into another level. So I realized I, you know, I understood all these things that you earn.

 

Host  1:12:18

That's wonderful. So of course living as a Burmese person in the golden land, you're growing up in the birthplace of this tradition and where the lineages have been maintained. So I'm curious being someone like yourself, who is so detail oriented, you know, reading British literature, being a journalist now, and very intellectually curious as well. What did after you started practicing this compassionate on the tradition of sn Goenka? What did you then learn about these figures and the lineage about the tradition about the meditation that was all taking place in your homeland?

 

Swe Win  1:12:49

I felt very, I feel very fortunate, even to St. bommies. Because I've been to so many ministries actually. I'm not Mr. Paulson I never appreciate, I really appreciate

 

Host  1:13:05

until you took the course Yeah.

 

Swe Win  1:13:07

So, I can easily get I got I can easily get drawn, you know, in a shallow you know, philosophy and pride is his misguided pride. I can get easily, you know, because there are thousands of options in this country. Yeah, this country right and that you get the right one. Right. So I feel very fortunate regularly as much as the foreign Yogi's that you Yeah, you know, I'm very fortunate. You know, I want to Buddha, I want to monastry with my family on the holy days. I never feel you know, I always feel sorry, something is lacking, right, what is lacking?

 

Host  1:13:50

Right, you know, just felt like in the outer shell of religion or something. Yeah.

 

Swe Win  1:13:53

There's always a feeling of desertification. something's going wrong. No,

 

Host  1:14:00

Sunday is misplaced. And those were passionate voices gave you substance you're looking for.

 

Swe Win  1:14:05

Yeah. So just in the name of so many buttons, you know, can they please write it please? Sometimes people huffy right confidence, right? understanding, but they are just playing a god, you know, with all these shallow level. So, what's the most important thing is to practice that you are the bride is so tight here in your country, you see, oh, this person has been a monk, or this person has been a meditator for 30 years, for 40 years, and that you feel obliged to pay respect to hear to listen to his whole lecture. So after taking going Caicos, I felt like I liberated for all these viserys adults.

 

1:14:57

Yeah, you know,

 

Swe Win  1:14:59

yeah. distinguish, you know, whether this is a real demopolis era whether this is you know, Tama flow, so Dima understand it or not some people who take this course, you know, good, go and listen. So you know

 

Host  1:15:15

that you're satisfied where

 

Swe Win  1:15:16

you are certified. I feel very fortunate. Yeah, very, very fortunate. So you don't, I don't feel applies to pay respects to any wrong policy, as you know, that was sort of, you know, honorary titles we have, no matter how many years they've been in this tradition or the association,

 

Host  1:15:34

right. So that you've never been one for title, one for the certificate, University and I never cared. Right, right. Just the wisdom that you're after,

 

Swe Win  1:15:45

because Buddha or any, you know, Buddha never got any decree. You know, Buddha did not depend on any secret or anything actually is very much dependent on himself. Actually. In many cases, the project is really important that you early instead jewelry you know historical understand historic is not history Sorry, sorry, this sushi clause cetera the switch is standing you know, they are always given huge importance in this country.

 

Host  1:16:25

So, and this passionate practice kind of taught you to to look for the wisdom and the authority inside

 

Swe Win  1:16:31

also do huffy do happy, simple and clear aptitude and it was all of these issues as you you know, you go to grab ball with all these days you early you know, all these religious issues religious passing in this country now, you know how to take. So, this is the biggest gift, one of the biggest gifts, one of the gifts I gave from the reverse now, actually, you know, huh Right. So, Burma is a complicated country. It's a difficult recent history combined with a rich meditative tradition that has inspired mindfulness movements all around the world from some of the great teachers and traditions that have gone. A question I often get from meditators is why is there is not more peace in a country where so many people are at the forefront of pursuing inner peace. So there's this kind of contradiction. So, what is your answer to this? Why is there such instability in a country where for so long, people have tried to attain the greatest mental inner stability, this legal issues, you know, it is not enough just to be proud of, you know, to receive or to have received the teachings of Buddha. You know, pride is not enough at all. No proof, can easily began even or skeptical ideally, we are probably I do early in our digital life, even in the system. It actually, I was asked this question this type of question many times,

 

Host  1:18:05

Yeah, me too

 

Swe Win  1:18:06

many times. So the simple thing is because of the, this assumption that these people are Buddhists, so this is the MIS assumption, you know, missing misconception, people in the Obama majority of the, you know, the traditional Buddhist, that's why they are Buddhists. So that's why they are supposed to supposed to reproduce it, you know, all these parties. So this is the misc assumption, you know, misconception right? Of the people who also want to know, like, okay, America, majority of people are Christians. So that's why the best practice like this or like them, so this is the misconception, misconception just

 

Host  1:18:47

just the Burmese are saying that the majority of Burmese Buddhists are not practicing, I will say in a way that would bring I was wisdom. Is that what I mean to

 

Swe Win  1:18:54

say? Is that is that the edge well, Rosie, I will say, I will see you know, rites and rituals. You know, play a greater role in the day to day life As you already know, sometimes even in in very dangerous, we actually, you know, if you perform this rider, that ritual you against this and that etc, you know. So, yeah, yeah. So even though we have this great Buddhist heritage Actually, we haven't decided that, you know, to the to the greatest advantage actually, so far. So as Myanmar continues to open and become more stable, what role do you think for passionate meditation can play in this process? I think, you know, these sub ritual audios are also can be found, you know, any sort of good political system actually. For example, you know, in a country where there is less corrosion, it means that people Half courtesy law actually ensure greater integrity. Right. Right. So, so, so these are social and political system cast trenta they're separate your practices that you early, you know, separate your practices. So they do it. Yeah. Do what? So if we have a better political system, so people will be integrated position, you know, to immerse yourself in the practices in a proper way. So when you have great level of poverty, when you have when you have an blushes, how can you imagine about decent brightness? Right, right. So, you're saying that the society needs to reach some level of stability and, and lack of corruption in order for there to be enough stability for passionate practice? People? Yeah, right. And last question. You know, there could be very peaceful meditators who have very little social awareness or interest in greater society. There can also be activists whose minds are frankly a mess, even though they're trying to make positive change in the world around. So you've been in both these worlds you've been in the world of inner peace and practicing gaining wisdom yourself and meditation. And you've also been looking at the bigger picture of political systems and what's needed to make a stable society. And I'm struck by one phrase I read that you made before you this, you said, quote, I started soul searching. I shouldn't have been angry that much freedom of expression became less important to me than freedom from anger or freedom from destruction, freedom from repentance, freedom from dilemmas. I wanted a peaceful and strong state of mind. As long as my mind is weak, I cannot do anything. I found more that I found values more important than any political ideology. So I'm wondering how does one combine mental stability with also pursuing an outer stability of the country, political prisoners former political prisoner like me also the current activists, we have the desire you know, to strive for a better society. But if we forgot about the importance of purify ourselves, you know, it will be like, like a crazy man with a dirty coat with a very dirty coat and then the person wandering in a very crowded area. I see. I want to hear I want to hear, but everybody gets fried down. Because if dirty coal at you early, no, you pollute the entire area. And then you see, I want to hit

 

Host  1:22:55

Right, right.

 

Swe Win  1:22:57

We we cannot we don't need to We wait until we have a we get our heart to hear the society, but we need a certain level of purity and maturity to hear others. Without that baseline. We are just we're just trouble actually the people if we can not have ourselves Hong Kong we hate others. So the biggest problem will be your sealer. If you don't have privacy law, how can you others for example, if you do an NGO, you're still sealing or if you don't see you're still misusing misappropriating. For, for less concrete, you know, reasons that you were so so

 

Host  1:23:49

you are not happy in the society actually say I do but Ken is a great example of someone who is the master of both worlds who is also heading for departments simultaneously in the government while running a meditation center as well. So that is possible. So, you know,

 

Swe Win  1:24:04

I, I read the biographies of revolutionaries that you early, you know, who fought against the British colonialism or who fought against, you know, a Dutch colonialism etc. Most of these revolutionaries have began to DDoS at you really have to does, you know, after the independence after the Second World War, you know, or the colonized countries, independent individuals who took part in the Revolutionary Wars against their, you know, colonizer, they begin to become dictators. Yeah.

 

Host  1:24:38

Right. Right. Good.

 

Swe Win  1:24:39

Most of them begin to teach us. That's very right. Even the worst students then the former colonizers as you will. This is the biggest lesson as you all know, so, we won't want to fight the monster, you know, you know, in a village or in our town Just because we hated you early, but not because we know because we want to be the society or the community with a greater payloads. You can you can adjust to array Hmm You know, the abuses, you know, against you too early you know carry out against you by the monster as early as you can adjust to hurry up so much anger actually with a monster. That's why you're reacting not because you you want to you want to you want to pay the society with a with a different you know propagules that you will eat right? So you fight the monster, you are definitely the game monster, the monster right? So you so doesn't know my philosophy. Maybe it's the philosophy or Nietzsche or such. You know, so I like that philosophy. You know, everybody has the potential to begin monster. So I feel like you're right. We are the two dogs in our small ways. Do not have the opportunity, right together the most powerful entity that we

 

Host  1:26:05

get those conditions, who knows what we'll do? Yeah, well, so you're saying that we might make a major change to the outside world? Yeah. But the inside world stays the same. And so actually, even if the outer world changes in terms of political structures and everything else, yeah, the same inner methodology that hasn't been worked on will just keep repeating itself and that's why the wisdom and the sheet are important, no matter

 

Swe Win  1:26:26

what sort of political system you have, Chinese or no us. The sila is indispensable. completely out of course, all right, and the integrity, the integrity non Greek as well. You cannot be greedy too much or too early, you know, if you are gone or if you're a government leader, actually. So these are compassion actually. You know, compassion Karuna, also sila morality. This should be our our companions everyday. You know, no matter what our position but a man do, you know? So preventing you right without these Bill honka you heard the society? How can you if you're just alone, it's alright imaginarily but the more power you have, you know, you are any you're in any position that you early, no good a position to hand without this society without these barriers

 

Host  1:27:24

in a country like Myanmar where these these meditative traditions and knowledge as you just said knowledge of Sheila, which doesn't exist in a lot of other countries knowledge of, of wisdom and the correct way to act. In a country like this, where this this knowledge is so understood by so many people. Do you see this being applied by by people who are in positions to apply it?

 

Swe Win  1:27:47

Yeah, I think so. You know, but not at the societal level. You know, I think, in countries with a political system early with a better governance. I didn't intentionally, I intentionally The the installed this idea of Silla in the assistant. Right right. So you cannot see that majority of the Barbies have the greatest sealer and those in the US cetera. Yeah, okay.

 

Host  1:28:18

Yeah okay we're good. We'll just one last line. Let's

 

Swe Win  1:28:20

do it the family my family,

 

Host  1:28:23

your family Yeah. Okay, so let's just end it here so so we just want to thank you so much for joining us really appreciate the time coming and wish the best of luck with everything you have coming up hope that we can talk again sometime later on. And it was just great to see you and thanks for sharing these words.

 

Swe Win  1:28:39

Thank you very much. Oh, yeah, okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

 

1:28:55

Gonna do we are done under the gun is busier and busier.

 

1:29:01

yada yada yada, yada, yada yada No, but

 

Swe Win  1:29:08

we want to present a special opportunity for donors who are committed to the life of our show. While we greatly appreciate donations of any and every size, larger donations are particularly helpful. For that reason we are encouraging donors with means to consider sponsoring a full episode for a one time donation of $350 or more. Donations in this category can include a dedication if you'd like to family members or Dharma friends, Adama quotation by the Buddha or meditation teacher even a short phone interview, we can include in the episode allowing your voice to be heard, or your generous donation can be anonymous. Should you wish to keep your name private, the choice is yours. In any case, such a generous donation would also give you the satisfaction of knowing that you enabled at least one more episode to be produced for the benefit of all the other listeners on the path. If you find the Dhamma interviews, we are shooting value and would like to support our mission. We welcome your contribution, you may give the patreon@www.patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar as well as via PayPal at WWE as well as via paypal@www.paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar. In both cases, that's Insight Myanmar one word. I en si gh T. MYAN m AR. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation, please feel free to get in touch with us. You may want to reflect a little more deeply on some of the themes explored in the last discussion. Following every interview. My friend Zack Hassler, and I take some time to process the depth of what was said. Zach has been to me and more on numerous occasions and spent three years here as a forest monk. And so we hope that our talk can add depth and context to the interview. He's now living in rural Thailand and I'll just Make a quick call on Skype to connect with them now.

 

Host  1:31:07

Oh, great, again to catch up with Zach and have a really enthralling and unusual one here with a lot to parse through.

 

Zach  1:31:15

Yeah, it was a really interesting story.

 

Swe Win  1:31:18

Yeah, I mean, it was really what it was. It was like a vivid and terrifying view of, of Burma today and Burma recently one that we rarely get with that kind of access to someone on the ground with, you know, his level of experience and interest and knowledge. Both today as well as really in the past couple decades. And as we talked about, at the beginning of the interview with him, I had last seen him you know, I don't know how many years ago, but it was the circumstances of when I last saw him. I don't think we really fleshed out in detail. There had been a article about about Burma at the time by George Packer, who's quite a famous reporter and nonfiction writer. He had used sway, sway wind as a kind of a profile piece of someone who was studying and had a history in activism. And he had basically hid his details both in terms of where he was living and studying and what he was doing and what he physically looked like. And even like his name, I think they changed one letter on his name. And when it came out, it hit too close to home, it came out in the New Yorker, and I don't remember what year this was, you know, seven years ago or so. But when it came out, it was so true to life that his this was this is before the country opened up. So whatever year it was, it was definitely before 2012 and it was it hits so close to home that his safety was was a little bit in jeopardy and so he had to my memory serves me right. He basically had to leave in the middle of the night out of Burma and didn't come back for many years. So that was the last time that that I encountered him face to face. When we had the interview I think I talked to him online he got to study in Hong Kong University and I talked to him a little there I remember he lamented not having done the books and I tried to help him out of seeing how we can get some sense but that was the last time we met was this article kind of landing too close to home and him escaping? I don't know how but through the cover of the night and then we end up back here in studio talking about his past history and down the experience

 

Zach  1:33:25

is the article about it's not the one about the guy growing cannabis there for CBD, is it?

 

Swe Win  1:33:32

No, that's a different one. that's a that's a Colorado Asian American guy in Colorado who, who ends up going to Myanmar with his family, I think around pmln and yeah, develops a CBD farm that was that was an article covering the last few years of that experience. This was this was much earlier than that. And it was a it wasn't a profile of sway when exactly, but it was a it was kind of a story. of Burma today and where it was going and he was one of the lead protagonists in it kind of seen understanding what was going on in the country through his prism, but it just, you know, very, very little was done to disguise who it was and that put him put his life at risk and he had to escape.

 

Zach  1:34:17

Right? I did that said the CBD ones even more, more recent, I did kind of because that guy that that writer did flush out sort of what it's like in, in prisons in Myanmar, I did kind of bring some that imagery into into the story with with sway when here,

 

Swe Win  1:34:37

you know, and rightly so, because in that article, he was in the same prison, the, the American CBD grower that was profiled in that magazine was sent to me in Gen prison and the description of his prison life was very similar to sway and even though it was, you know, 10 or 20 years apart, and it was exactly the same prison

 

Zach  1:35:00

Yeah. And so the very first thing is it's a vivid and terrifying view of Burma today. This is and recently and this is even more recent and even with a democratically elected government, there's aspects to to life in Myanmar that are really almost identical to how our it was before.

 

Swe Win  1:35:20

Yeah, and I think this is why it's such an interesting interview for us to get into because, in some ways, the way the conversation flowed is not too similar to the hero's journey of other Dhamma practitioners meditators, monastics that we hear from in terms of who they were in early life, how they found the Dhamma how it transformed their life who they were today. This follows kind of a similar track, but nowhere has this track coincided with Burma's difficult political and recent history as much as his does. We really get both views there the view of activism and pushing for positive change coinciding with As someone who is sitting on the cushion and following the meditation practice to look inside and purify their own mind,

 

Zach  1:36:07

Alan talked about that a little bit, didn't he?

 

Swe Win  1:36:09

Yeah, absolutely. Alan absolutely did in his interview talked about that quite a bit. His life definitely coincided with, you know how his Dhamma practice was also related to his activism. And it's interesting, you mentioned that interview, because one of the things that really impressed me in Alan's talk, I actually can't remember we did two interviews with Alan, only one of them has been released so far. A second one is, is going to be coming out soon. And it might have been in the second talk. So listeners might not have heard this yet. But one of the things that Allen said was about the Dhamma practice in Myanmar, as opposed to in other places, was just a reminder to the audience that these people are practicing in conditions that we can't begin to understand and that understanding the practice that they do, the way that they teach the way they incorporate the dominance of life, we also have to understand the oppressive regime in which they're living. And that when these Dhamma teachings are coming to us, those teachings are coming without that background context in which they're being formed. And he just really encouraged us as practitioners to have a deeper appreciation for that wider context in which the teachings are being followed and propagated. And I found this talk with sway when so interesting, I might have even mentioned it. I think I did mention during the interview with sway when referencing a talk with Alan, because I found Well, here's a guy that's fitting exactly into the mold of how Alan Clements was speaking about a Burmese practitioner who is trying to incorporate his Dhamma practice into a very difficult, very difficult situation where his freedom is not assured and his basic human rights and dignity are things that cannot be taken for granted. And as he is struggling with all of these things in such different circumstances, he's also going through the normal Practice of a meditator? Well, there is no normal practice of a meditator. But these as anyone is starting to learn meditation for the first time, there are some kind of vaguely general stages that people pass through. And in his description of his meditative experience, there are some things we can grab onto that might be similar to what we hear stories from other people. But this is happening in the context of being in and out of jail and, and not living in a free society. And so he really is that protagonist, that Alan Clements is talking about, incorporating this Dhamma practice into a very difficult, very different and difficult environment.

 

Zach  1:38:35

Well, on top of that, like, it would be one thing to be in all these in all those conditions, having had some kind of form training in, in meditation, but he didn't, he he was attracted to it, but he just had a few books and a few people to talk to, and kind of, in all those difficult conditions was kind of fashioning you know his own practice, which is I mean, he realized he, he struggled a bit on with some of that along the way. But he actually he did a pretty good job of fashioning together a good Dhamma practice and, and I was just surprised at how potent some of his insights were during that period. I mean, the conditions, I guess, someone said recently about the the recent COVID pandemic, that these conditions in the world in a way are quite helpful for somebody practices down and so that he could catch them at all on his own and kind of corral some some different practices together in those conditions there. If you I mean, just how much suffering there would be without some kind of practice, you know, and that transition he talks about in the beginning. You know, geez, I'm only 20 years old, I'm 21 years in prison. How am I gonna? How am I going to survive this and then you have insights, you know, that are very, you know, very, very dynamic, you know, like, Well, I'm not suffering because of what the mind keeps wanting to blame it on, but I'm actually suffering because of my attachments to what he called it to stimulus. He uses words, you know, I didn't I don't have the stimulus I have outside anymore. And that insight that, you know that what's freedom, you know, freedom is like, is like having something you can rely on that's, that can't be taken away from you. It's like an internal state, you know, no matter where you are. And man, like, if that's not liberating in normal life, how much more So would it be in prison, you know, so under those conditions?

 

Swe Win  1:40:45

Yeah, right, right and formulating that practice pretty much on his own from the start. You know, he did have access later to some books and maybe some people to talk to, but mainly it was just him sitting inside a cell. With an awareness of how much misery and suffering he had inside and not wanting to feel that way and knowing that he had to find a way out, which is really the, if you boil down the core of what it was, the Buddha talked with the Four Noble Truths and with suffering and the way out of suffering and accepting these truths and and working towards a release of them, this is what it all boils down to, but not really knowing how it is that you formulate that and actually, you know, the the very minimal contact he had with other prisoners that he described was them telling them that he's going to go crazy if he practices then No, you can't practice meditation will make you worse off but still, he he proceeds ahead and trying and then later, you know, years down the line. The Red Cross is the International Committee of the Red Cross ICRC is able to allow Dhamma books very technical, as he said, very boring books in there that at least give him something to hold on to. And then looking at, you know, just to just to take a moment look at kind of account character study of what we feel or what I feel in listening to him. It's it's really just this this huge amounts of courage and intensity and conviction. clarity in terms of what he's doing is very powerful to, to hear how strong those qualities were in his life and how they came around to his activism as well as his, you know, his meditation practice,

 

Zach  1:42:24

right? I yeah, I was. I was I was fascinated that he, he mentioned ted kaczynski, you know, of course, we also see, most of us because of what we learned about the media is just like the act of you know, the Terrorism Act, which I don't condone in any, in any way, shape or form. Yet the, the philosophical underpinnings of his overall worldview are actually quite fascinating, you know, and it's, and I think, the more the more we go forward in this accelerating world of technology, I think we start to see more and more like the effects of technology on us and how that we kind of lose touch with the gifts of nature, which is something that, that that's something that stood out for me. It's like, wow, you know, he's really a unique person that you just, I mean, perhaps it's some naive and stereotyping on my part. When I come to Miramar, I wouldn't, I wouldn't expect to run across someone who had that kind of influence. And it's it's quite a profound. He just has a I mean, I guess anywhere. I mean, a lot of people are just, you know, the mainstream just kind of go with the flow kind of Yeah. I think in any society, he would have been like this because there's certain quality. I mean, there are some what it means I think there's some strong internal conditions. Now he he, he paints it as like well I just I think I've been in the diamond before. Something like that. Right? He had he thinks he's carrying some of that from from past life, which may be true. But there is certainly this proclivity towards interesting ideas in the world. Looking into things being investigative, he just has this ability to learn on his own. Like the way for example, he he, he read about metta, or heard about I can't remember how that played out. But it came his mind like practicing metta. And he's like I have, I just have too much anger to do that. I can't, I don't feel meta so I can radiate metal. And so, you know, for some people, that would be a dead end or they would need someone to tell them, okay, if you can't do that, do this. We have the type of mind that could say, well, what can I do? Oh, over here, he does talk about a dosa. There's low but dosa Moha. And there's also a low dose of Moha and a dose so dosa is aversion or hatred and a dosa is the opposite of that. So can I at least start with non hatred, I can I can get there I can get like back to neutral where the mind is feeling hatred, then I can I can find that place of non hatred, and wow, that's already a sense of relief in me. I don't feel meta yet, but I feel a dosa. And I can share that because now I'm feeling that and I can feel the benefit and to get there on his own. You know, I talked before about having, you know, kind of being a dominant child or a damaged teenager and then sort of learning how to be a dominant adult. He seems to naturally have a dominant adolescent teenage mind where he's very investigative and willing to experiment and, and fashion things on his on his own and learn from them.

 

Swe Win  1:45:56

Yeah, certainly, and something of a rebel as well. Perhaps you know, even though he's certainly rebelling against the educational and political system of his time, and even as he's doing, and he seems to not exactly line up and align himself with the leaders of the democracy movement, to be a little bit, you know, have his own unique perspective on that doesn't quite fit into a box with that. And when you talk about his influences, you know, he also mentioned Charles Dickens was a huge influence and you know, who, some if someone just came to you and said, hey, there's this guy, you know, Ted Kaczynski and the unabomber and Charles Dickens or this guy, his greatest influences, you know, guess, describe what this kind of person is and what he's like in the world. You know, he wouldn't come up with this. But if you wouldn't describe that one of the things that struck me and listening to it is it is how much he was like a typical Yogi like, like you were me, Zack, or like probably many of the people listening here from the west. Where would he have been placed in a situation of greater stability and security and opportunity, he would have thought Some kind of similar trajectory. And what I mean by that is he's obviously a sensitive young man or as he describes himself in those years, at that time University, he was a sensitive young man looking for truth, looking for friends for like minded people to discuss, you know, the deep ideas and the meaning of life, wanting a proper education. And, and this is this, this is something really common for people of that age, certainly in the West have, you know, these kind of periods of idealism and searching that you're going through except as he's going through this period of his life, he finds himself caught up and unspeakable historical conditions of society starting to break down around him and, and having him having to work out who he is and how he responds in that moment based on his ideals based on safety based on his goals and and then facing really, really difficult conditions and prison starvation and be in isolation, and so it I think it I think for many meditators listening to this, who went through a similar trajectory that you were Isaak went through of, of learning about ourselves and coming of age and maturing and having some kind of spiritual maturation as well. Obviously, we're still going through that. But at least we could point to it before or after, when we first started practice. It does bring about a sort of natural reflection of oneself caught up in those circumstances if I was that sensitive young man looking for, you know, looking for meaning in my place in the world and my friends and percents and then I was caught up in these times, what choices would I made? And if those choices lead to these kind of difficult conditions, how would I have found my way out and I certainly don't think I could have persevered as sway wind describes himself to me.

 

Zach  1:48:54

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. Like, I mean, I talked a lot about this damage child dama adolescent thing and and really I have needed encouragement in my life to be the dumb adolescent, you know, and it's helpful to have the right kind of parental role model there. And I've had, I've had some good teachers in my life that really nudged me towards like experiment, my yoga teachers, you know, like, hey, look, look in your own body and see for yourself, you know, who to engineer right now, is that that kind of teachers? Well, I said, like, you know, experiment, play around, you know, and, but I'm not like that, by design, so to speak, you know, and so if I was left to my own accord, I I don't know. I mean, maybe under more intense conditions, maybe something would shift I'm not sure. But yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what I would have done but I I can clearly see that that part of him was there before prison as well and then in prison and how it served I'm not sure I would have the same outcome I might have been a really I might have not, not, like coalesce the same powers and influences and brought them into the practice like you did. I think I would have struggled much more. It's hard to say you know how things would turn out. But yeah, that's just kind of what what comes up now.

 

Swe Win  1:50:27

Yeah, yeah. And you know, considering that conversation on I mentioned how he found himself this sensitive young man looking for this sense of truth and betterment at a time when society was really breaking down and that and fast forward to where we are now or what the state of Myanmar is in the way that Swain describes. And there really is a kind of operating in a broken system. So many parts of the way in normal society functions are things you don't find in Myanmar in many developing countries. That's true, but certainly in Myanmar and I found that topic very interesting when it came up of asking sway when about, you know, the the quintessential question that so many meditators have of Myanmar? You know, the question of if, if this is such a Buddhist country, so many people are practicing compassion meditation, there's so many ways amongst etc, etc. Why is there this level of violence and so we wouldn't had a number of directions he went with that, but one was Sheila, one was the five precepts the ethical practice that he sees in the country. And he didn't say that it was, you know, unequivocally low or bad in Myanmar, but he said it was lower than most people, most meditators might think they might give a little more credit for how he feels it really is. And he thinks that there there is in some of the ways that that society is broken down in some ways and some of the things that don't work. He is highlighting the lack of sheilah of people in positions of power authority. that are that are that are playing a role in that broken system by choosing to perhaps benefit themselves or those around them at an expense of following a very high level of moral quality and Sheila and that that was an interesting take your hat on it.

 

Zach  1:52:19

Yeah, you know, reminds me like the first time I went traveling, I went to Pakistan, which is in Islamic Republic, right. And, you know, I was trying to learn a little bit about Islam and, and I was critical of them not not rising up to the highest, you know, standards have their own beliefs. You know, and I think this is a mistake I've made as a kind of a novice traveler. I mean, if we call America a Christian country, we and we hold up the highest Christian ideals. We also don't rise to that occasion, often, both as a government or even as people often. And so this certainly happens in Miramar except perhaps like when I first went there I was really deeply into a being a very faithful Buddhist I was really into like, I was really inspired by a lot of more faith based things I didn't really realize that at the time but so I I just bounced around from I was on these, this tour with with sn Goenka and about 400 of people from that tradition. And we were just bouncing around from Donald place to Don place listen to give talks and and meditating together and the people are so friendly. And so when you get that was kind of a bubble of sorts, you know, and that's the impression I carry to Burma and a lot of travelers when they go there too that people are just so nice and this and this and this it unless you bump into it inadvertently which I don't think happens to a lot of people it Really kind of takes living there and spending some time there to kind of see how, you know, when you look under the hood, so to speak, you know, how things are actually operating? And so then, you know, the kind of the kind of Shockers is, it's not what you think. And it's Matter of fact, it's very strongly the opposite that manifests in many ways. And then and then, and then like, there's this other level when I when I bump into people like sorry, when that, that, in spite of all that there's still this incredible stuff that happens, you know, in that context, you know, so the first layers, you don't see that at all, and you think it's all kind of rosy and then in a dynamic way, and then you see like, well, it's actually maybe quite a bit darker than I had expected. And then in that darkness, there's there's these incredible lights as well. So that's something that's hard to appreciate, I think like you said in so many ways internally, he's just like us. But he just grew up in a completely different, different situation. So anyways, yeah, just kind of going through, like what my mental processes and as far as like judging cultures and religions and societies and yeah,

 

Swe Win  1:55:18

yeah, that's certainly very true that there's these different layers that coexist in the country. And I think one of the things I tell people that start to be here longer is that, and they might see one side, a lot of one side first, and then a lot of another side later, and they just have no idea kind of how to put these together. And one of the things I really insist on, it took me a long time to learn is that the existence of one layer does not actually negate the other one from existing, you know, dark and light if you just want to want to put easy distinctions on them, although, of course, it's harder than that. But it's more of that these, these different layers are coexisting with each other and that's what makes it so hard to have a proper appreciation for how things really are. And that's also, you know, getting to the kind of podcast that we want to have a real truth telling podcast of, you know, looking at what BMR society is like, what different practices are like what monastic life is like. And of course, you and I have extraordinary reverence for the possibilities that are here tomorrow if we didn't, we wouldn't be doing this podcast. So, you know, of course, we were immensely grateful and want to share all that. But we also don't want to have this kind of rosy glow that can indoctrinate and, and just cover you know, like kool aid to meditators that will then break down when they're there long enough to see things that don't really make sense. I think it's a lot better to talk about those things beforehand, in an honest and respectful way. And that's, that's this avenue that Swain has given us by his honesty. And, you know, there's so many examples from my personal life and I'm sure from yours as well in Myanmar, of how this breakdown of a normal functioning society affects every aspect of life and my examples are more in terms of, you know, business and late life because I've done more of that lately at least and I know you shared some very similar examples before from monastic life, the same things happening but on a monastic level which you know on on other talks I think we're going to get into in more detail when I was preparing for this talk we're gonna have after sway wins, the challenge for me was really thinking of the, the, you know, the the seemingly infinite examples that I could offer here for two real tangible examples for what it's like to live in a society where so many regular functions have broken down and the kind of the personal pain of this and how and what role Sheila plays in this, I think is in is important to give some kind of evidence or some some real example of so like, I came up with a couple examples to share real tangible things to give an idea. So one is that several years ago, there was a meditator on Facebook a Western meditator asking For the exactly official, proper way that you stay at a monastery, and the answer was that, you, you know, strictly legally speaking, as a foreigner, you cannot stay in any monastery unless you have a religious visa sponsored by that monastery. And to get a religious visa, the monastery has to go through a set of procedures in contacting local officials and writing a letter and getting that approved. And it's this long, complicated process, that that may or may not work and may or may not involve corruption. And even if you jump through all the hoops, that still might not really mean that you're clear. And the basic advice that he was getting on Facebook from very seasoned meditators who've been here a long time, was just like, hey, just go to the monastery you want to go to and talk to the say that tell him your intentions. And if he feels comfortable with you, and and he is kind of in a safe place to do it, he'll just let you stay and he'll talk to the local officials and it'll all work out. And this meditator was responding well, no, like I am following this very ethical practice. And it's the backbone of everything I do. And I want to make sure everything is official, everything's legal, everything is ethical, I want to be completely by the book. And it was so interesting seeing this dynamic and made total sense what he was saying. I mean, he was it was really, really quite wonderful to see his level of integrity. But the response he got back to that was that, you know, some there's not really a by the year, because this knows what the book is, you know, there's rules out there that are, that are in the books, and they're not enforced, or they're enforced on Sundays, or they're enforced to some extent, or they're enforced in some place and not another. There's other thing there's other so called rules that are not in the books, but that are regularly enforced. And so there's not this like standardized code where you do this and this and this, and then then you buy the book, and then you're good. You know, in my own life, that's, that's, that's an example from a meditator out there talking on Facebook and in my own life, the level of difficulty that we've had in dealing with not really knowing how things are supposed to run, you know, make an endless confusion of where There might be licenses given for cars or driving licenses or businesses or homes or something like that. And then all of a sudden, one day, they'll just say, you know, someone that seemingly someone somewhere wants money, and they'll just say every single license that we've ever issued is invalid. And you have until this period to get new licenses, of course, jumping through more hoops and pay more money. And often, if you're a foreigner, those, the protocol is not really clear. And you have to hire a so called agent where you need to pay more money on top of that, to get these things passed. And and so being a meditator who wants to live an ethical life, the what this is all coming to and we're it's kind of the underlying point of why I'm telling these stories is that if you want to live very ethically know what the code is, follow the cold code do the right thing. Because of some of the ways that these systems aren't functioning, it's very hard to do that. And so, this when sway when talked about the Some of the poor ways that Sheila are being followed here and a reason for why why things weren't the way that meditators might expect them to be. This thought arose this, this memory arose that when you're when you're operating in a country where the system is not really codified and functioning the way that it should be, it makes it harder to live a real ethical life full of Sheila, because you don't really know what the right way forward is and you and the more you kind of stick your head up and try to ask and try to find out and try to make sure that every procedure is done the same way that might actually get you into more of a mess. And so and so the you know, and it's been one of my learnings in Burma and also talking to him. This came about as well that that was really a new learning for me and my maturation, which I had never really thought before. Is that the the stability of the society And the kind of the Justice and the fairness of the society actually affects in some way, the degree to which you are able to follow certain kinds of Sheila and that you can trust that you would live in a certain kind of society that would not impinge on you and push you into a certain kind of area or decision making, where it would be harder to know how to follow proper Sheila, because the normal functions are not as clear and as straightforward as they can be. And so hearing that part of the talk definitely referenced a lot of past experiences and thoughts that I've had in being here.

 

Zach  2:02:37

That's right. I mean, and you would have if you've never lived if someone's never lived in this kind of culture, here in Thailand, you know, I corruption is fairly standardized. I mean, no one really likes it, but it's, it's an accepted part of life. That's just how it is if you need certain things, you have to pay bribes and especially if they have leverage on you. They're going to make you pay more of a bribe? And so, and it's not always the case and so, but the important thing is like, Where's that line? You know, and that line has to be discerned often in real time, you know? And am I acting out of greed or fear? Or, you know, am I really being coerced into this? Or am I being greedy here, you know, like, and so we can't it's, it's a, what I realize it's like it's a luxury to have been brought up in adjust society, absolutely. And, and with the dominant mind that the, the, the the proclivity of human beings is towards greed, aversion and delusion, okay. So, the fact that corruption exists is actually quite normal and and actually the kind of carving out justice and enforcing it is actually in some senses more than anomaly, but it's just what I grew up in. So it's a kind of a shocker when I when I come out of that, but it was I look around the world, I think, I think greed tends to dominate. And, and, and so at a personal level, it's like, one it's just like really trying to be able to see the truth of something. It might not be pretty but like this is real, you know, and then making some kind of peace with that doesn't mean condoning it right. But this is making peace with Yeah, accept that this is how it is. And then how do I negotiate that? Again, it's more of it's not we can't be children there we have to grow up a little bit and make some decisions on our own and those decisions. Take discernment that might be different in different scenarios. And really kind of basing our sila on on wisdom that arises. from our experience of gaining wisdom and applying it in the moment and applying it in different ways. That's a lot more difficult in the beginning, then just just relying on a set of rules, which is what we're used to, we're not forced to, to have this discernment. And so in a way, that's that's kind of a gift, right? It's more difficult. It's disappointing at first, if you've come, you know, I came from a different culture. But in the end, I think there's a deeper appreciation and not appreciation, the wrong word understanding of how the world is, how humans are, what loba, dosa, Moha is, how it operates and how strong it is, and then how we can navigate that. Again, it might be annoying at first not to have these kind of clear guidelines, but in the end, we become more stronger in our application of sila. If it's not coming externally, kind of codified for us.

 

Swe Win  2:05:51

Right And I think one of the learnings I had in living in society and also in hearing from sway when is that when you're living in a just society The decision of kind of how moral and ethical to be is kind of your own, you're generally not put in a situation where things are unclear and you're pushed in one way or another to, to not really know what the correct procedure is and to, to have the sense of greatness. When you're in a just society. It's really, if you're if you're acting unethically, that's really an independent decision most of the time coming from you. But when there is not a level of Shila followed at higher levels and the way procedures are happening, then sometimes it's just very, very difficult to to find the correct way of acting when you don't feel that there's a system in place that's looking out after you. And of course, in western countries, we criticize those systems a lot and justly so and there's a lot of holes in them, but how will they work and how repeatedly or something you don't really appreciate until you spend time in cultures where that's not the case. That being said, I was really curious and interested when we went talked about the, you know, you talked along these parallel tracks of the practice of meditation and mindfulness and then kind of having activism towards wanting to create a more just, and, and better society. And in some of the areas that connected both of these, you're talking about Sheila and Right Speech and metta and some of these things and how these, these Buddhist practices or meditative practices, would also affect society at large and have definitely made me think of what we might need in America right now. We're both American and that the current divisions we're having, how those those different good practices of Sheila Right Speech and meta would would be helping us as well.

 

Zach  2:07:48

Right, I think what inside of that one, one really good learning is, you know,

 

2:07:52

I think

 

2:07:53

Growing up in that kind of controlled justice and I'm not saying by any means that that there's justice For everyone in America, I'm white male. So there's a ton of privilege that I have that I want to recognize that but from for the privilege class, there's, there's one set.

 

2:08:11

So I'm not saying America is perfect, but when you compare it to coming to these places, it's really easy to be judgmental, and to have an expectation. And so what Swe Win brings to that activism isn't this blame and victimization. He said very clearly, 'We are all dictators,' and what he means by that is we're only a few conditions away from being and doing horrible things! So coming from one set of conditions, it's easy to judge another set, but but actually it's easy to forget that if you grew up in the conditions that the dictator did, if you had the same internal and external conditions, and the same opportunities, you could easily be a dictator! And, it's that kind of wisdom that he brings to his activism. And I think, I mean, that's, that's incredible to me! He talked about it in more simple terms, about just being clean. If we're going to clean up society, we got to clean up ourselves, and you really have to understand the human condition overall. And it's just so easy to demonize the other side. And I think that's where we don't come back together. We're not really trying to understand. I could go into a lot of details about what's going on America. I won't right here, but, absolutely I think understanding that the way everyone's behaving is based on conditions and not on being inferior or being stupid. Bringing that understanding to activism, I think it's essential, otherwise you do end up just being a part of polarizing and it is just going drive people further apart from each other.

 

Swe Win  2:10:22

Yeah, that's really beautifully put. And if you're bringing that kind of, you know, anger and victimization and righteousness to your activism, then whatever cause it is you're promoting the means in which you're promoting it is still putting out some degree of negativity into the world, and when sway when was in that prison sale, and he definitely had a lot of reason for righteousness, anger, and victimization, you know, in the situation that he was in, but he also realized that those were not mental states that would help them in any way and so he tried to find a way out of it. When you talk about when you talk about Being a product of our conditions, whatever, whatever culture, that is, we're all dictators and coming from certain kind of conditions we have the potential to be shaped in certain ways, this practice this practice of liberation, that all of us are following that are going about some kind of meditative work in line with the Buddha. This is a process of removing those conditions if we're doing it right. This is a process of, of looking into what not replacing it with one set of conditions to another, but looking at how that mind is conditioned and trying to get to an unconditioned state, or at least to see things moment to moment that are unconditioned. And on the flip side of that, also having an understanding or a sympathy not excusing or condoning the behavior, but having some kind of understanding that people are acting according to their conditions, even when we don't like it very much even when we're seeing corruption or violence or sectarianism or something else. That That wisdom can also inform us that this is these aren't stupid or bad people, as you say this is action that's coming from a place of the mind being conditioned and not get able to remove those yet.

 

Zach  2:12:17

Right, I think it takes some inner reflection, oftentimes, well, I should say, like, I don't always do this. And when I don't I end up in trouble. But when I can I reflect on what am I seeing here in this other person, that version is rising from I'm seeing some kind of Defilement. And, and it's not so it's, it's not even so general that Yeah, there's dosa and I also have dosa, it's like, there's dosa and or loba. In this particular way. There's greed in this particular way. And even though mine doesn't manifest the same, there are similar conditions in my life that I can actually point to that, that I have some degree of agreement. In or a version in the same way, it may not be exactly the same but it's so it's not just as I can relate to it in the most general terms, I can get even a little more specific. And, and there are shades of gray. And you know so so Swain could realize he could have been the prison guards that are taking bribes. He could have been the prison guards that are allowing or even probably asking the gang to to beat this new prisoner. He could have been when the gang members that that did that to him, it's just all a matter of conditions and if we, if we can relate to ourselves and the world that way that this is just mind this is then there's defilements and their wisdom and we if we can kind of sort that out we I think the more we we kind of coalesce as an individual. I think we get ourselves into trouble. The more that that loosens up and we just see there is just mine. There are just bodies and there are just conditions. There can be this real compassion for all kinds of different situations. And then when we come from that place that we might be able to actually do something with activism doesn't, doesn't take this kind of it has sometimes a negative connotation of being, opposition or confrontation, it can be actually quite an act of compassion and empathy for ourselves and the other. So I really think there's a lot of healing. It takes that kind of wisdom in the activism to be helpful and healing.

 

Swe Win  2:14:39

Right, right. And just as you're interpreting activism that way, I also want to give a certain kind of reinterpretation or clarification of another word of rebel, you know, Rebel can be can have the connotation of being something that whatever you put in front of me, I'm just going to take the opposite side I'm going to rebel against it. But rebel can also be a way of not Following the conditions that the mind is setting out for you and I think we really see this definition of rebel in sway when certainly we saw it within the story but if we stand back and take a wider perspective and some things we didn't get a chance to get into in the in the talk are covered a little bit in my introduction before it. We look at what he's doing today and he's really one of the on the forefront of Bomar, you know, the ethnic Burmese people in the country that are are calling out the nationalism that has taken over some of the, you know, anti muslim and pro 969 movement and he has really been at the forefront of criticizing that at a great expense to himself. And it reminds me, you know, it shouldn't be a surprise, I guess because when we hear about his early his earlier, observations and feelings he talked about not and even his early days as a meditator, he talked about not really understanding why he needed to To show certain kind of respect or deference to seniors or to people with more experience in an area or to even monks who've been in robes for a certain amount of time, he really wanted to see the, to him it was really the, the value or the content of the person's ideas or actions more than their resume or their CV. And so with that, you know, he's, he's put himself by standing by his ideals and his role as an editor editor. He's been, you know, as mentioned in the in the introduction, he was sued, and that was great personal expense, and he's had assassination attempts of his life. I think three weeks before we sat down for the interview, someone took a shot at him and even while we were doing the interview, you know, I mentioned at the beginning of our talk, Zack, how the last time I had seen him was when he had to escape under the cover of the night after this. George Packer in New Yorker article came out. Well, as we were wrapping up the interview, we had gone on a little bit long in the interview and his, his wife and his daughter were asleep in the car outside and And it really encouraged him several times to come in and sit outside the studio and relax and but he didn't want to wake wake his daughter up and he couldn't contact his wife and daughter because in the studio, of course, there's no phones so we don't have any contact. And as the interview went on longer, I think eventually that interview was interrupted by his daughter walking into the studio with his wife and daughter were justifiably quite concerned about this interview with someone that they had never met going on a little bit too long. And the recent attempts on his life and, and, and such and so and so our interview was we were coming to the end anyway, and it was happily interrupted by his daughter walking into the room. I think some of that was caught on audio, but it also is just kind of a testament to this guy's courage and his convictions. And, you know, he talked about a hero's journey. This guy is a true hero. He's a hero in the mundane sense of what he's doing and and he's also taken his own hero's journey on a spiritual path.

 

Zach  2:17:57

Or I was wondering what happened at the end there. I was a little unclear in listening to it, glad you glad you cleared that up. When Yeah, I can appreciate also that it's one thing to sit in comfort and then talk about and even even act on our best intentions. So how do we respond when things get tough? You know, this is this is also a question I have during this current crisis you know, like, how how is our mind right now and what's good for us in mind right now because things are a little tough right now for a lot of people for the current crisis

 

Host  2:18:33

you're meaning like you listen to this at different times you're referring to

 

Zach  2:18:38

Coronavirus, the coronavirus pandemic yet thanks that people you know this is this is stress and duress of life you know from from the outside, you know, and then what's happening inside? Do we have some stability of mind to offer not only ourselves and our families and our friends within the wider people around us and and our can we Can you know just it? There's a reflection I shouldn't I don't need to go into specifics but like it's a it's a reflection back to us on our current state of mind not to judge so much but just to understand, you know, I really appreciate the people that are helpful and then so even more so know that the pandemic just kind of can come to us comes to our doorstep but like there's other people that will actually step out into it and get into activism that's that's a more what's the word proactive term right then facing doing well, in the face of adversity is one thing but knowing that you will probably get adversity by stepping out and being proactive is a whole nother level and in that life does call for that sometimes. And so I just have a lot of admiration for that willingness to To be out on those margins, and you know, because a lot of the people because with wisdom, alright, so he would have compassion for people that that believe that way there is a, a narrative in the nationalism, you know that that emotionally makes sense to a lot of people obviously, you know, and you have to understand that if you're going to reach these people and, and show them that there's a better way, if you if you negate their ideas you're also negating their feelings right off the bat and so yeah, so and we have to understand that these groups he's, he's challenging their ideologies and their methods you know, they're, they're not pacifist, they're they're, they're violent. Yeah, they they use physical force and up to the point of like burning down villages or burning down buildings at least and and killing and Would we would we stand up for that? Like, it's a nice reflection. I mean, and not to judge ourselves. It's not a reflection to beat ourselves up, it's like to say, like, what would I do? What would I do in that situation? Like how, how far can I go? Like to get involved in what's right you know, and there's a lot of options on what's right but but you know, yeah, I These are things we often don't have to face. And yeah, we need people like sway when so it's nice to meet and hear story. So personally.

 

Swe Win  2:21:37

We do we do and we also we need people like him in the world. And we also I don't know if we need but we certainly could say we crave or we we benefit from the gift of their speech and opening up the way they do. I mean, what what an absolutely extraordinary harrowing, beautiful, tragic, you know, ongoing story that he gives us to work. flecked about where he's come from and where he's going and what he's standing up for now. And, you know, that that, as we've talked about before, is combining this practice of Dhamma. of looking within and taking responsibility within and, and taking those conditions off of yourself, freeing yourself, liberating yourself, as you're also taking the activism outside for people that that maybe can't speak or stand for themselves, and to really want to use that activism to truly make society a better place. Promoting the type of activism as you said, Zach, that is, is also mindful of the emotions that he's putting out in the world. And, and it's just, it's just a privilege to be able to hear that this way when himself said, you know, one of the most beautiful found things he said on the podcast to me was talking about, I'm paraphrasing here, but there was a line where he talked about how you know, you He would really like to have that silence of a meditation retreat. He really likes the silence. He really likes to, to be able to to sit in that long period of observing himself and observing his own mind, as many of us do, probably most of the listeners on this podcast, appreciate and value that and yet, and yet and yet, the thing the rejoinder, he said to that was, but I have to use my voice, you know, I find I have to use my voice. I can't sit forever in that silence. Of course, he does take advantage of that silence when he can, he's not issuing it and, and, and taking that off the table, but he's having to moderate his own silence and inner work for when he needs to stand up and use that voice and discern that it is not a time for silence in a certain venue or situation.

 

Zach  2:23:49

What a contrast, silence must be in his life, something I can only imagine. And it was Yeah, it was really nice to get a peek into that life. For perspective, you know it we have some Westerners on here a lot telling their their journeys. It was nice to hear such. I mean, what a great to hear from a Burmese meditator What a great story. Like I said, not just a story, it's like a living, you know, this is real, really inspiring.

 

Host  2:24:21

Yeah, boy, there's a lot more we can say about it. I know both of us had a few more bullet points on each of our sides to to get through to talk about them. I mean, there's just so much failed in that in that hour plus, but I think we're good now. I think hopefully, we've given some listeners from some more thoughts for reflection, and I know we have some some good ones coming up after this as well.

 

Zach  2:24:44

Yeah, looking forward to it all. I enjoyed it.

 

Swe Win  2:24:47

Yeah. Okay, great. Well, take care, stay safe. Practice, social distancing. Wash your hands, don't touch your face and all the other public service announcements out there. Thanks, likewise, okay. Okay. Take care. You have been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we invite you to rate review and share our podcast. Every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Also, make sure to check out our website for our complete episodes, including additional text videos and other information at www dot Insight myanmar.org that's one word. I en si ght MYA n m AR dot o RG. If you cannot find our feed on your podcast player, please let us know and we will ensure that it could be offered there in the future. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a post suggest a guest request specific questions and join in on discussions on our Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group And also welcome to join our Facebook and Instagram accounts by the same name of Insight Myanmar. If you're not on Facebook, you can also message us directly at Burma dama@gmail.com. That's b u r madhama@gmail.com. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that forum. We would also like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible, especially our two sound engineers, Martin combs and Thorn gay along with Zack Hessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with editing caching that Campbell does our social media templates, and drag co spend data and Andre Francoise make our sketches. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us bringing the guests who have made up the show thus far, as well as the guests themselves for agreeing to come and share. Finally, we are immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We also remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and not necessarily reflective of the host or other podcast contributors. If you find the Dhamma interviews we are sharing a value and would like to support our mission we welcome your contribution. You may give monthly donations at patreon@www.patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar, or one time donations on paypal@www.paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar. In both cases that's Insight Myanmar one word. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation, please feel free to get in touch with us.

 

Zach  2:27:53

Yeah, yeah.

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