Transcript: Episode 9, Myanmar Dhamma Diaries: A Sobering Experience in Ingyinbin
Following is the full transcript for the interview about Ingyinbin, which appeared on March 1, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
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00:56
Ay, ay ay. Ay ay ay. With
01:02
a good day. Today I am
01:09
Alisa
01:15
Luna.
Host 01:30
All right, so this is a new thing that we're trying out. There's so much variety to be found and the practice and the Dhamma life here in Myanmar that we're also experimenting with different ways to be able to express that and share that up till now we've just done a lot of more formal or even informal interviews, but this is a new idea where with the background of experience that both us Zack and I have in Myanmar, we have these stories. anecdotes that have happened to us or happened to people we know of inspiration information, of things that have taken place in our Dhamma practice in this country. And they're some of these stories are so involved and layered that we're not able to express them even when they relate to one of the stories of the guests. And so we had this idea to do these kind of Dhamma diaries, these Myanmar Dhamma diaries where we get to share these stories. So this is our first experiment with that.
Zach 02:29
Yeah, just to listen to so I'm here to to, to listen along with you, but also to, to ask questions along the way, or, and to just discuss it afterwards. So and then there'll be times when I'm sharing stories as well. So yeah, let's give it a try.
Host 02:47
Yeah, right, right. So this, this episode, I'll be sharing the story that happened to me a few years ago, and we'll be talking about that and flushing it out, processing it, unpacking it looking at more of the detail and the bromodomain context. And then next episode you have a story ready to unpack yourself. That's, that's quite a thing when we get there. But first we'll we'll talk about something that happened to me a few years ago.
03:11
Yeah, please do tell.
Host 03:14
Yeah, right. So Zack you were actually involved in heavily involved in one part of one section of the story one day of the story. And you you know, some of the details, maybe not all the details as we go. So to build the scene, this was, you know, three years ago, maybe, and at this time, my wife and I were living in Yangon. And we were doing Airbnb got real estate is quite expensive counterintuitively, most most people wouldn't think that but it's um, prices have gone down a little bit but it's been quite pricey. And so we were we were making ends meet by having by renting out one of the rooms and all in all, it was a really fantastic experience. You know, we had you you're able to describe yourself and all So describe the rules for the room. And so, you know, we described ourselves as meditative practitioners as some of the work I was doing with the meditators guide and the at that time, the pilgrimage and we asked that any visitors that came would follow the five precepts mainly just no intoxicants. We didn't want to live in a room with intoxicants. And we had some some pretty interesting and inspiring people who came that some tourists who were coming to me and more largely because of, of the practice and other people that were just somewhat interested in it, but most people self selected to stay with us who knew what we were about knew what the rules were a couple of guests. We had some pretty interesting stories as well actually, they might necessitate other other installments of this podcast series, but none of the stories could hold a candle to the wildness and the unexpected nature of one person who stayed with us and that's going To be the subject of, of the story that follows. So, we had a request from a European businessman who was residing in Southeast Asia and had some business and me and Martin Stay with us. And we, he was going to stay a week and so we, we accepted the invitation and he, he came, came in the morning to introduce himself and to drop some things off and seemed like a nice guy and it was nothing really special about that interaction. And then that afternoon I had a knock on the door I think this evening it was just the sun was setting I remember and and the the doorman of the flat we were living in the kind of the guard who just sits outside all day chewing beetle and gossiping with his friends drinking tea. He was kind of urgently motioning that I should follow him downstairs and Kind of like trying to wave them off. You know, I don't have any business downstairs. I don't know what it is you want to bring me to and very insistently. So I came down. And I see our Airbnb guest is this his first evening of staying with us, I see him standing outside of a taxi, soaking the head to foot. I mean, it looked like he had just stepped out of a pool. I don't even know how he was able to be that wet and the situation that he was in, and he's barely able to stand and he's yelling at the taxi driver refusing to pay him and accusing them of something. The these kinds of scenes are not very popular in Myanmar. So this is really standing out. Mostly it seems you don't have these kind of foreign or local interactions that are going south very quickly, like you're seeing here.
06:52
Well, you know,
Zach 06:54
not showing angers it's a sign of especially in a Dhamma community or a culture that You know, you're you're out of control, you know, you're expressing this dosa, essentially. It's, of course it happens because we're humans, but it's kind of not done and then and then. So these kind of very outrageous because of that's the kind of the norm then these outrageous events stand out all the more so just wanted to put that into it's a little different than you know if you were somewhere in Europe or in, in in North America for example.
Host 07:28
Yeah, yeah right that's that's a good point. And that leads to another discussion that isn't, don't have time in this place in context that because you're not allowed in this culture to have overt expressions of anger. it when it's not handled properly, it can be suppressed and come out in other forums. But in any case, this is not something that you really see very often. He was, um, I hadn't gotten through the full description of the scene. I had left off with him. soaking wet from head to foot yelling the taxi driver and barely able to stand because of absolute intoxication. I mean, just absolutely trashed. You know, not really looking in his eyes. He didn't really seem to have any idea where it was. It had been a long time since I had seen someone in this state of inebriation and I'm to bring this drunk outrageous wet foreigner to my Airbnb. Another thing to give you context of is that reputation is really important in Myanmar. It is a small country. Everyone knows everyone. If you if you don't know everyone, you know someone else you you know someone who knows someone. It's grown. The expat community is growing a little bit. You know, I've been here about 10 years and 10 years ago, it was tiny. There are so many stories to tell about the tiniest at that time and the importance of reputation. The, the one that I just love that really illustrates just how intimate everything was is one of my closest friends. Friends who is my work colleague like me or lungi, you know the kind of sarong type fabric that many of the men wear. And one time he was in the Bangkok airport on visa run, just wearing normal clothes and a Burmese walked up to him and said, Hey, aren't you that foreigner who wears the lung t around young guns? That's a sign of intimacy and knowledge that people have of each other here. But in any case, in our story, you know, this is really embarrassing because we obviously we're following a good ethical life and we're not making waves. And then we have this outrageous foreign are just screaming at people on the street and absolutely sloshed. So, that itself is kind of concerning and not really great for our future of staying in this apartment. So anyway, we bring them upstairs. Barely, I mean, he's barely able to stand he kind of falls into the living room. makes some kind of weird My wife and you know, scares her and then barely manages to get to his room and I literally mean Barry. I literally mean barely because as he walked through the threshold of his room, he stepped in the garbage can fill down and just barely landed with his chest and face onto the bed and passed out there with his, you know, clothes stolen and one foot still in the garbage cans. That was our first night of the Airbnb cast.
10:34
I was gonna ask if his foot was still in the trash can.
Host 10:37
It was and we have a picture of that. I mean, I took a picture partly just to to know that I was going to contact Airbnb and to to show him you know, to show what we were dealing with. And, you know, we shut the door the room I came back later and checked a couple hours and he was still, you know, half on the bed with his foot still in the trash can We didn't know what to do. The next day, we had a scheduled guest from one of our good Dharma friends. Wagga, who's a Dutch monk, he was coming to see us and when he come into for conversation, we're going to serve them offer him a lunch. And when he came, we, I think this guest was was not there. He's in his room where he was out, and we told what happened. And he was you know, he was quite alarmed as well by it and and also just kind of reference to our guy. You know, it's what's really strange about this is that we have the set of rules and description about ourselves that usually people self select not to stay here and yeah, right. He really tried to stay with us and I just don't get why someone from that lifestyle would want to stay with people that were doing something so different, you know, it's very strange. So eventually he came in, I knew I could talk to him. I must have been preparing the food or cleaning up Something and it was very different Wagga talking to him than me for two reasons. One is that he was a monastic and so he was somewhat removed from society. So it allowed for a level of directness and you know admonishment To be frank. And to he wasn't in any way connected to the business of him stains so he could also confront him in ways that we were not necessarily comfortable given some of the other factors with his stay there. And in the course of the conversation, Wagga found out that he had actually he was not accidentally or, or without regard that he had chosen to stay at our Airbnb. He indicated to me that he felt like he was on his last legs that he felt like he had lost his handle on life and that these good people who are into Buddhist meditation and spirituality might have something to offer to offer him at that point. And when. And Wagga also was not shy in confronting him and was very clear that you know, first of all this level of intoxication was not great that any level of intoxication did not go with spirituality and that he was violating the rules of the Airbnb stay. So he did confront them on that level and he seemed, the guests seemed, you know, a little bit shameful and sorry about that. So I got reported the conversation to me after it happened and this really changed the way that my wife and I came to see this interaction and, and went from and I should preface to, I sometime this day, I think it was before I got arrived. We called Airbnb we complained about the situation. They were very sympathetic. They couldn't do much from their end, but they they they said that they you know, We shouldn't have to put up with this behavior and that he had also broken the code of, of staying there so that they could help us in any way that we wanted. So we were really looking at taking action to have him removed as soon as possible, just given the danger to all to everything really. And we just didn't really want to associate with someone like that and to how someone like that in our in our space. Um, after hearing wagas description of what he said, our heart softened a little. And we realized that as hard as it was, we were, we were actually somewhat in a position to help. I don't know how we were going to help. But we we realize that that this was someone kind of on his last stages. And it was a plea for help and and that we were the recipients. And so this led us to a pause and we also appreciated that Wagga had headed confronted him and not drinking at least if he doesn't drink, that's something we can manage. And but he was still in pretty deep denial of, of his state he he described his intoxication the other night as a couple drinks and wasn't or couldn't recognize the state of his intoxication. And so when I realized that this guest was not facing reality that he had to face at minimum kind of what actually happened in my mind, one of the the next steps that I thought was to call us Zach, who at that time was a was a was a monk forest monk. I was about to say you. You did spend a lot of time in the forest at this time you were in Yangon, you were at the Admin Center a couple hours north of Yangon. And with your background in meditation and yet also in confrontation of and having difficult conversations in your your your past work environment. That is thought to call you and to ask if you would come. And in just a moment, I want to check in with you about your experience and your memory of it, I want to set it up a little bit more to the time that you got there. So we hear a little bit more in the background, and then kind of hear what happened when you came on the scene from your own mouth. But um, I can't remember exactly the sequence, but I think I first called you and I remember laughing and saying, you know, how I'm calling this monk who's devoting his life to, you know, practice and study and quiet areas and, you know, just just kind of a simple ritual throughout the day and I'm asking him to sit through, you know, three or four hours of terrible yank on traffic that makes people nauseous and come and confront a complete stranger that he's never met and might never meet again and might not be open to the difficult communication and help him to in that day of talking to, to have some degree of acceptance of his condition and and some exploration of how Buddhist meditation could start to help him. That probably wasn't exactly what I pitch to you, but that was kind of what I was like, boy, this is really an act of service if he accepts, if you accept and I you know, I think I told you I updated you up to that point of who had come and how he had acted and what you know what had transpired and, and asked about your willingness to come and you said you were and then I went to the guest and I, I, I said you know, you say you're interested in meditation I know this American monk who is willing to come here and talk to you and he could talk to you about meditation and and you can ask him questions and you know, it's kind of a special chance to explore while you're in Myanmar, I I wanted him to have some some buy in and so I did say you know, for him, for for my friend to come you because he's a monk he doesn't have anything you have to pay for his taxi there and back and you also have to pay for you have to offer him a lunch that you pay for. I felt it was really important for him to have a buy in that this was his thing that he was doing. And he agreed to that. So we got back to you and a taxi was sent and you came for what amounted to gosh, you know, eight, nine hours of one on one intense conversation. And with that, before I share my background views of that, I think it's adequate to turn it over to you and get your perspective on this moment.
Zach 18:29
Yeah, so just a tiny bit of background, I have a background in psychology and therapy, working with people that have trouble struggling with perhaps addiction, anger, depression. So So anyways, this was no substance abuse as well. So this was this was actually totally in my wheelhouse. But, you know, as a monk, you know, I wasn't there to actually do you know, to, to, you know, do therapy with someone to more of a Dharma perspective and, and one of the foundations of Dhamma is sila. So the angle I took I remember it was
19:10
about being honest, first
Zach 19:13
about the truth, you know about what was really going on, you know that he and that he hadn't been and Joe was there, at least most of the time, a lot of that time and not all the time. But we could, we could compare the stories that what happened versus what he was saying happened and how they're, you know, that like, if I did get that he had some bias into wanting to try to meditate, to learn meditation and to turn his life around. I said, Well, if you want to turn your life around, you have to be honest about where you are. Because if you're gonna, if you don't know where you are, you won't know how much to turn. So if you're leaving a bunch of stuff off, then then you won't turn around from That stuff. So we have to get, let's get it all on the table. And let's get really honest about what happened here since you've been at Joe's house.
20:09
And it took a while,
Zach 20:11
but and he was afraid, you know, of course, you know, to see it all himself and then to share that with people, but try to create a safe environment for him to do that. Try to establish some quick rapport and you know, and I think we got there, you know, and so that's why I remember anyways, that, you know, there was denial and then and so it isn't just forcing the truth is and when the denial comes, you need to look right at that, like right here, like this is where it's manifesting right now, and we can do something different right now. And give them other options and and show it to role in the overall bigger picture. So yeah, and the obligation of contract in His Word, you know, that was all part of it as well that you know, he was actually in violation of something and an agreement he had made, and so there was showing him some of his own tricks as well, like the minimization and denial, those are tricks we play on our own mind so that we can be okay with ourselves isn't common. So yeah, just working through all these kind of wasted to dodge full responsibility, you know, like, sometimes we will take partial responsibility and
21:25
that, you know,
Zach 21:27
a lot of people will just let that go at that, like, now we let's get, let's get real, let's get it all out on the table. So that took a while the people I was working with I was usually working with over months, not just a day so. So, you know, just trying to build on what he gets, and then you know, he's gonna draw back on that and then you just walk them through it again. And you know, you don't really move forward until you you're clear and like with the truth, and, you know, he ultimately he did that. I mean, it's Not like the loops ever ended unsuccessfully, in the end, you know, he was he was much more honest. You know, it took. That's a type of sobering that's more emotional. It's not just sobering from the alcohol. It's sobering from all the defenses and mechanisms of protection that you have around it.
Host 22:19
Yeah, that's a good point. And to sort of add on to the story, you know, as the day was progressing, and you were going through, you know, on one hand, you were providing information about meditative possibilities. And on the other hand, you were also confronting him about what he wasn't accepting. And as the day started to progress, we started to realize, okay, well, what where's this going to go? You know, what? In the shape that he's in, where can he get really for experience and we kind of went through that, you know, we're in the land of Damo. Where and Burma I've, I've written and you've helped with meditators guide so if there's anyone that is going To know something of the country and the opportunities open you know this is you and I are pretty good pair to be able to figure these things out we're just going through this list of possibilities and we're you know, we're looking at this monastery or this meditation center this this place and nothing is quiet it's kind of sinking in right away just given his the intensity of a situation you know that he's that he's coming from from such this danger of an abbreviation to the point of memory loss and suddenly the idea comes to us. Engine you know when to say it is monastery and engine bin webu say it was one of the most famous 20th century Burmese monks many considered Mr. Hunt or fully enlightened. He was also instrumental in encouraging saggio began to teach international meditation center who, of course was the, the teacher of sn Goenka. The the passion that spread around the world is largely a credit to webuzo encouragement of ob gyn to teach it's a this is a monastery. We've spent a lot of time in a lot of time researching in the guidebook. I think there's some, you know, 4050 pages just on this site alone. And we know the the, not to say it, but he's kind of second in command their Mandela, Shin Mandela, we know him quite well. And Mandela is really responsible just to give some background on this place. Mandela is quite responsible for the opening of engine in itself. You know, it was a place that after webu, passed away in 1877, was really quite lost to history and the memory of what happened there. And, you know, one of the things we did in the guidebook was traced back the first meditators in the Goenka tradition, who found this place and then told their friends about it, who told their friends and then it expanded into something of a pilgrimage site. And what we say to himself actually predicted that one day, I'm busloads of Foreigners would come to pay respects they would come and double decker buses. He said hotels would be built. He was very specific about this, this prophecy. And so it has this really curious history both in terms of the the land itself, the famous monk who was there. And we should mention this is a village in upper Burma. And this is really a village. I mean, this is, you know, four or five hours from Mandalay. And we're in Yangon. And this is you have to get the Mandalay first and then in four or five hours, the last hour is on a very rough road that, you know, bumps you up for. If you're if you're in some of those old cars back in the day, they didn't have shocks it would, you know, your head would be hitting the ceiling every five seconds because it'd be the Jetsons the road would be bumping you up and up and up. So it's really far out there. And we thought, you know, this, this place has kind of two things going for it. One is it's um, it's something of an island. It's a village with nothing around. I mean, there is nothing around it. There's no places of business even even it's just the monastery in Venice. And nothing else. That's one reason and Reason number two is that Mandela's is self taught in English and very interested in foreigners and wanting to help foreign practitioners and just a very kind, compassionate, considerate man that might might be willing to take them on. So we start to think like this could be a place like this could be this is a strategy developing this could be a place where he goes, and and so throughout that day while he was still there, I thought to call him Angela. And, you know, fortunately, he was there, he answered the phone. And so the funny thing here again, is that, you know, just as I called us back the day before and asked you to interrupt your peaceful routine to come and talk to someone you don't know in a very difficult conversation. I'm now calling you Mandela. And I'm asking him if he wouldn't mind accepting someone in the throes of inebriation with no meditative experience, who I can't vouch for. I don't have any past relationship with As a foreigner, so that if he acts out could cause some kind of a risk or Jeopardy to the monastery itself. And I'm just asking if he would mind taking a person like this under his wing to help them out. I should also give some backstory that I've introduced many meditators to Mandela who've wanted to go to his monastery to pay respects to who say it on the practice seriously. And, you know, so in up until this time, every every purse, every foreigner I've introduced him to are foreigners with years of meditative experience who've, you know, she loves the backbone of their life. They wouldn't come near and toxication they give Donna donation after they leave out of gratitude. They behave with the utmost politeness and sincerity and they, they understand a lot of the principles of Buddhism and meditation. And now I'm suggesting to bring some there who has someone there who has none of that and who I can't even vouch for, and I was very up front about this on the phone with the Mandalay was not pushing him to take this person on or trying to talk him into it I I knew that this was this was a very unique situation I told him in a lot of detail about how he had acted out in our concerns with him and how he did feel that this was his he was on his last legs and he had come to us and we're trying to think of a place for him to go and and that it wasn't someone who had a background of alcoholism it was someone that literally day to day and hour and hour was not able to stop drinking and I was really open to Mandela's answer whatever it would be I was very open to to Amanda ledges saying you know, this is a bit too much for us and, and totally accepting that and, and instead Mandela responded. In the Congress, we're having a casual conversation and I'll never forget steel just appeared in his voice, just absolute steel and absolute concentration. And focus. And I still remember what he said to me. He said, Joe, this is not a bad person, he does not have a bad heart. This is someone with clouds obstructing his heart. And we need to scatter those clouds to have his brightness shine again, just this this power of poetic language like I've never heard Mandela speak before since.
Zach 29:24
Yeah, that touched me. Even as you said it, I started getting even a little choked up because I do remember. I remember that this person, he was a good person, and he's struggling. And this is what this is what the Dhamma is, life is difficult, and we find all kinds of ways to relieve ourselves and some of them aren't healthy. And this guy was just stuck in it. And he was, you know, he was actually asking for help. So it's such a beautiful sentiment who as you express that steel determination to help this person clear his clouds, so he could shine through them. Really. Yeah.
Host 30:00
Yeah, yeah, it was it was incredibly touching to hear from a Mandela especially when I really left him every option open to not take on what amounted to a really major risk and something the likes of which he'd never experienced before, you know, who knows what he's dealt with with Burmese villagers, but for a European cosmopolitan businessman with his own struggles, this this was new territory for him. So to finish what he said, you know, after saying that and the same voice of steel, he said, Joa, I will take responsibility for him, I will bring him here, he will stay the only thing he has to agree is that he will not touch alcohol and he'll stay in my village for he set a time limit on I don't know if it was 14 days or 20 days, some extended period. He said, you know, more than a week for sure. He said, he said I will. I will take them on you send them to me. And I again repeated my caveat. My disclaimer, I wanted to make sure there was no misunderstanding and he kind of just me and said, No, no, no, I will We'll take them on it was really someone rising to the challenge of, of accepting that, that there was a person in need that he could play a role in. And so then we went back to him with this information. And then we had to get him on board with going not that we want to do we want it to be his decision. We didn't want to push him into it. But we also wanted him to know the the opportunities that were now apparent and that that what he had come to do there is now someone willing to take him on. And and I remember you played an instrumental role and kind of explaining to him who Mandela who Mandela was and, and where he could go in practice, and in helping him to see that possibility. I don't know if you remember much of that conversation in the afternoon.
Zach 31:46
Yeah, that's more vague. I just remember, you know, I mean, we both just thought that Wu Mandela's disposition as a person would just be such a nice fit, you know, if, if we had sent him to a meditation Center, for example, that was more kind of just structured and stuff, you know, I mean, may get lucky there too and have someone take us under swing but but because he could be disruptive, maybe they would just kick him out maybe it would be actually could be quite a bad experience if he went to the wrong place. What was but so in a way in this village, you know, and there's no other thing you know, he's not really going to be disruptive even if he struggled, you know, and it just seemed like such a good fit. And I mean, the other last piece of the puzzle to come in is whether whether this person would want to go and yeah, so yeah, I think you know, he asked questions in trying to get a feel for but I think if I remember correctly, he he did get quite on board with the idea, right?
Host 32:49
Yeah, he did. He did. He did. As I remember there was still kind of that loop mentality where he was he would kind of get on board but then he grow them off into something that we'd have to bring I'm on track again. And I remember as the conversation was going on, I think I pulled you aside or maybe I'll talk to you later. I don't remember but I suddenly had a fear that his sobriety was so fragile that I you know, we were talking about sending him on about we talked about a bus or a plane, he wanted a bus and so we were saying, you know, well if we send them on a bus from Yangon to Mandalay and then normally when meditators go they from Mandalay, they take another bus to one of to a nearby town of engine bay, and then there's no buses that actually go to engine minute such a small village in the new Mandela comes out of meets them, but I didn't think he could stay sober. I thought that if he got off the Mandalay bus station that we might never hear from him again. That was how fragile his sobriety was. And so, I contacted him Angela and I told him this again, I said, Look, I'm sorry to dump more kind of bad news onto this, but I don't know if he could actually get on his own. I think that, that he'll fall off the wagon, you know, and, and so Mandela said, you know, I'll have my supporters and myself will come to the Mandalay bus station to meet me totally understood the problem and the situation. He said, we'll just meet him at the Mandalay bus station, you know, we'll meet them, we'll come down five hours, and we'll meet him there, and then we'll take him back to the monastery. And so then we went back to the guest, and we told him this, you know, we told them, just the level of service and care that was being offered to him to help him and, and eventually he was on board. The, the funny part of this was that, you know, we I think on all our side, you know, you and me and my wife who Agha Mandela, we all saw the severity that he was in and just felt like he needs to go there immediately. He needs to go there now. But he had five days left on his Airbnb reservation and he didn't want to lose the money from that. I mean, of course, we could have worked something out but he just was like, you know, more days, I'll say five more days ago and nothing could really talk them out of that we those five days were pins and needles. I mean, just pins and needles. And I remember you laid down the law to him before you left, have you No, no drinking, no intoxication, you're following these rules. Like, you know, everyone's doing all this for you. You have to follow your end of it. And you know, of course, he's saying Yeah, yeah, okay. Okay. Okay. You know, we, it's hard to believe any word at this point. And, you know, those five days, we're just we're pins and needles of like, what is going to happen next, you know, really, you know, scared for him and scared for ourselves. And I think there was a couple times I saw him that he seemed not quite right. Could have been, you know, the residue or could have been that he had, he was he had taken something in and then stop themselves. But in any case, there weren't any episodes. And we got a trusted taxi driver to take him to the Yangon bus station. We're kind of thinking of every place that he could fall down along the way. And And so we we got them from the, you know, our taxi driver took them from our home to the bus station telling them really like you know, don't let them out of your site make sure you get on the bus and then the Yangon bus station to Mandalay just hoping that you know he doesn't get off the bus somewhere in the middle of nowhere because there's not much between the Yangon Mandalay road and and you know, hoping Amanda picks him up and then he gets there and so all that all that happens. I mean, the short long story short, you know, those five days his trip to the engine bay and all that happens and then he's an engine been and he's in Mandela's care, and he stayed for you know, a couple weeks whatever it was, I don't quite remember. I heard pieces of the story from him later on from Mandela from his facebook feed that I saw wonderful pictures and piecing that together. You know, Mandela had him waking up at four o'clock every morning that's you know, Burmese monastic life starts very early meditation center. life starts early, Adam waking up at four in the morning and his job For the first several days was only sweeping very fitting for a website at a monastery. Anyone who knows about weather say it has seen pictures of him holding a broom has heard stories about him, you know this this one of the most famous monks figures of Burma at the time. And he's sweeping his own walkways, you know, he doing the work himself. He was he was a very industrious person, not just in meditation, but in building roads and pagodas and buildings and, and sweeping. And so here at the Weber State monastery, he has the sky waking up four o'clock in the morning and just sweeping nothing else, nothing else. You know, you'd expect that they're probably having some level of conversation. I know they ate together every day. And then after a few days of sweeping, he just kind of starts to talk to them about following the breath. And you know, we should note again at a web we say at a monastery, what we say to himself, but one thing he taught was on upon I was in breath out breath, observation of breath. That was that was his main practice. And so Mandela encourages this guy to as he sweeping in the morning just to like, notice his breath really casually, not any kind of like practice. Now do this, do it for this amount of time, you know, do it, you know, maintain this level of awareness, just like you know, as you're sweeping, just kind of kind of noticed that you have a breath. And so he's waking up in the morning, there's no internet, there's no distraction, there's no public place he can go to, to do something. And he, all he can do is wake up and and sweep a pretty empty, empty place and, and observe his breath. And so he starts doing that, and you know, they're talking a little bit more, and eventually moves into, you know, at some point, he's sitting for a minute at a time, you know, I don't know when I don't know what time of the day but he's just sitting for one minute, just one minute just trying it maybe at lunch, they stop eating lunch, close your eyes, open your eyes, whatever, and they're just observing the breath and then towards the end, just kind of speeding up the process of these meditative instructions. I think he might have been sitting for as long as an hour at some point. I'm not sure of that. But it was very casual. So it wasn't like you know, this is a sitting you have to sit here this is the way you have to behave. But I think just naturally went into this hour of, of meditative practice. And, you know, Mandela was with them every step they they he was a shadow they they were together at every moment. They talked constantly, they ate together. I know there wasn't much on his Facebook feed. But one of the things that really struck me was at one point in Mandela, Mandela's workers had to go to the nearby town of swaco, about an hour and a half away to get some supplies and he begged to come. I mean, he was just so bored and just wanted distraction. on his Facebook feed. He described the trip and took pictures and he had this line that says, I saw I saw the advertisements for alcohol and they were laughing at me. You know, just, they were, you know, as he was coming away from this addiction. I think we could all do Identify that with whatever our addictive objects are. And I also saw, you know, he's a kind of expat businessman operating in Southeast Asia. And as he was sharing episodes from his time at the monastery and very, very simple post very kind of beautiful of just like I woke up and I did this and the villagers did this. And, you know, this is where when I'm seeing these expat friends of like Bangkok and Philippines and Vietnam, kind of, you know, single older expat guys, you can all kind of imagine the stereotype of that and the kind of that kind of life just writing on his Facebook posts, like who are you, you know, what are you doing, you know, the one of their own going to a place like this. And, and so this is his, this is his experience being there. Let me pause there. There's a some some of the story to wrap up when I met him again, but that's that's, that's quite a mouthful of kind of sharing this process of a meditative experience he went through and just I don't know how much Have the Zack you knew or remembered but but just checking in with you, your your thought your thoughts on on hearing that?
Zach 41:06
No, I think I'm just yeah, you want to I want to hear how it ends. I mean I I know how it ends but like I'm actually in the story and like yeah, I want to hear how it how it goes.
Host 41:18
Okay. Okay. So I did see him again once or twice beyond that. And I mean he was he was bright when I saw him he was just calm. I mean, he was cool. He was relaxed. He wasn't. He wasn't nervous or shit and he was shaking too. That was another thing he was he was physically shaking before and he wasn't shaking and he wasn't, wasn't agitated, like kind of eyes darting around frantically everywhere, like he was before. He was just polite and pleasant and easygoing. And, you know, he, he was saying, you know, I want to I told him, Angela, I want to come here every year, you know, once a year. I want to come back and just be there because I I didn't know that was possible. I just I didn't know that I can get away like that. And one of the things that that really struck me and filled me with a sense of, of gratitude and just good feeling was that even at the moment, I remember thinking, I don't know how the story is going to end. I don't know what more inner demons he has to battle and what conditions will appear. I don't know how far this will go. But what I do know is that this gave him an option that he didn't know was possible before this showed him that when your world is collapsing, and you're falling headfirst into your addictions that you don't have to that there is another option. And that option is is on upon a meditation. That option is a good friend who is going to encourage your better qualities and give good advice or guidance. That option is simplicity. That was a big thing for him. Just the fact that he could go somewhere where there was nothing And, and calm just become with not many opportunities or distractions. And he now had, and a sense of the possibility of moving forward that he didn't have before. So whatever decisions he could make in the future depending on his, his, you know, his karma and his conditions and the conditions he found himself and everything else, he at least, knew that there was an option for relief and for not falling deeper that he didn't know before. He literally didn't know that, that option was on the table. And he knew that now and he knew what you can do and how you could do it, and what benefit that brought and how it just kind of pause things and allowed you to get back kind of get back in check. And, and that just felt wonderful. It just felt wonderful that that we had played some small part and helping him to see that he had that potential to make a difference. decisions, what decisions he made, you know, that's beyond our control. I do know that he for months, months and months and months after that he was in touch with Mandela every day. Every day he was calling him Mandela, you know, back and forth. Both were calling each other. They were texting they were talking I mean just a really, you know, just this this cosmopolitan European business traveler in Southeast Asia and this you know, rural monk who had ordained when he was 17 years old, only because it was the 50th anniversary of the founding of webuzo Monastery he ordained under webu. And these two form this really special bond and love and care with each other and you just would talk you'd say you Mandela's name, and you'd see this guy, his face would just melt. I mean, he just he he was just cared for so just taking in you know, is that that that steel form that Amanda had shared with me on the phone, you know, is this is not, this is not him. This is clouds obscuring The heart and I will take responsibility he that hardness and the one insistence You know, he cannot touch alcohol, everything else, leave it to me leave it the Dhamma really but that that hard resolve, combined with the soft care and touch of just just so slowly and gradually and patiently bringing him through this, this regimen of Sheila and concentration and love, love of someone that that is is caring about you and guiding you and spending time and taking your mental space to to check in with you and to bring him to to that point and so that that was a really, I was really beautiful to go through and I know that I'm in touch with the guests periodically and I do know that he's still and I'm in touch with the mandolin more and I know that they're still in touch. I don't know if he's gone back, but I know that not too long passes, where they're not still in touch with each other and that's wonderful. It's also to kind of give a little bit of my summary of the story or my moral, one of the things that I like about it quite a bit is that, you know, when you talk about foreigners coming to me and Mar, coming for Dhamma practice, you know, meditators, it's usually really clean, good, inspiring stories of like, you know, someone finding a cave, and, you know, going there and meditating this long and following this kind of rigorous practice and, you know, getting this kind of support from villagers. In other words, it's very upright people acting in very upright ways. And, you know, giving back in ways that fill your heart and receiving things that also fill your heart and just wonderful, inspiring kind of stories of good cheer all the way around. And this is the one story that I've been involved with, that really stands out of someone coming with no meditative background, no understanding of any sort of Buddhist practice or methodology or even ethics and on his last legs and in You know, in his own words, and not behaving appropriately not making good decisions, you know, really the opposite of that really behaving outrageously and appropriately. And, and so this Dhamma is not just for those who've made a radical transformation in their life and have kind of figured some things out and are going to higher stages of purification. Like many of the people we probably have on the podcast, many of those those guests who you know, have have enormously inspirational lives that were, which is one of the reasons we're talking to them. But this is also a place where people that are going through these immense inner struggles and not really coming out the other end in a successful way that are tottering off the edge, that it is also for them. And sometimes when a Westerner thinks about the possibility of ordaining as a monastic, a monk or a nun temporarily or longer. It's the sense of like, Well, I have to be pure enough or I have to be dedicated enough or you know, If I come to Burma, or if I take a pilgrimage, or if I take an extended meditation retreat, just kind of all these, these, these wishes and these, these volitions that there's a sense there's a kind of an inner judgment of, you know how, what level you have to be at to, to qualify in a sense. There's a lot of self hate and, and self criticism that we Westerners face. And to me, this is such a wonderful story, because this is someone who is really struggling. And there's a place for him, there's a place for him and his impurities and his struggles to come into and to gain that relief and that understanding of Dhamma. And this is for everyone, you know, and as we heard at the bar was a podcast, where he looks around and notices that the meditation centers that exist today, they're not for people with mental severe mental or physical disabilities, and he doesn't like that he wants to be able to meet more people. And this is a story of this guest of being someone who's outside those margins. Someone who can qualify for a traditional retreat because of his struggles. And yet, there is still a place for him, there's still a Dhamma teaching that can come and embrace him and transform him. And that part of the story and that uniqueness is what makes it really stand out as one of my most precious memories and the first story that I wanted to share on this on this podcast.
Zach 49:25
Yeah, it's for all those reasons, it is such a great story. One aspect that comes to mind is just how
49:36
how like,
Zach 49:38
institutionalized kind of one size fits all kind of technique is is, is one thing that's available in the world. When you come to a place like me, my we've talked about this before this kind of buffet of offerings in Dhamma. And some of them organized and more institutional or or and some More like just never know, kind of like what can arise for you. Like there's, there's so much variety of, of how it can manifest. And I think that's not necessarily what you would get in other places in a place like Myanmar Yeah, there's a place for for him, you know, it may not be like I said something we can look up and on the web and find a description for it and, and put them in a program. It's just like, it's just someone we happen to know with the perfect disposition because a big part of that story is the skillfulness with which Mandela handled them. I mean, it's so gentle and so loving, but just start with sweeping it just just simplify your life for a while, you know, and then just pay attention to the you're just really gradual, you know, no hurry, not trying to achieve anything just just and let the effects of it be felt, you know, not told, you know, and yeah, like I said, He may have had good luck if he came across the right people in in in a more institutionalized meditation center. But
51:08
yeah, there's
51:10
so so that's one side of it just this
Zach 51:13
all the possibilities just because there's so much Dhamma in Myanmar
Host 51:19
Yeah, I think that's that's really right. And that's that's also you know what what you're saying is getting at also one of the reasons why we wanted to put together this podcast and some of the stories that we want to tell the diversity of experience that's out there, the the, the kind of stories that go off to mainstream, this is definitely one of those off the mainstream and that really gives encouragement that no matter where you're at, and what your level of experiences and what difficulty you're facing, that if you do come to this place, and you throw yourself into it, and I've seen a lot of people throw themselves into it, none more dramatic than this example, that you can find a landing spot that might not give you what you expect, but You know, can give you what you need at the moment.
Zach 52:03
Who would have ever guessed that someone of his what would you call it lifestyle or situation would end up in engine bin, you know, if you ever been there, it's like, you know, dirt roads and ox pulled wagon carts and you know, and he would have never ended up there just within the, the you know the the normal routine of his of his life and I mean it that shows up in the responses from his friends, right. Like his, his his group, his posse that he normally hangs out with, like, what are you doing? Where are you? I how would you I mean, that places it nor even that whole region wouldn't even be on the map for these guys in their life that's not in their, you know, in their routine, you know, so you know I like also this gentleman, you know, there's two sides to this, right? There's, there's some kind of inner calling, you know, he did take his very first step was just to sign up, sign up for Airbnb with you guys. And so there is this and then so the other side of that so just wanted to, you know, give him this also make sure you give him this credit for, for actually taking those steps even while falling down, you know, it's still I mean, I mean how do you start I mean what who what, what strength the you know encourage you had you know, he could see you could say it what's weak he's not able to man if you ever been deep in addiction it's so difficult to take those steps in the middle of all that is just very courageous thing. The other side is just like that. That monasticism Buddhism I think it's more just Buddhism in general but I think Buddhist monks do
54:01
have a reputation.
Zach 54:04
I mean, I shouldn't say anything that I think that's probably true. But for him at least, coming from a completely different culture. He had this idea that maybe, maybe that what would you call it, but maybe Buddhism in this way could help him. And so there's this reputation of, of the practice and the whole thing. I mean, to use the word religion isn't quite right. But I think you know what I mean, that phenomenon of Buddhism is, has a reputation such as someone even coming from another culture, when they're on their last legs that hey, maybe, maybe this could help me.
54:47
And I
Zach 54:49
know that that harkens back to husar Anna's talking about the behavior of monks and touching money and stuff and how over 2500 years, it hasn't Perfect, and there's there's actually a lot of frustrating things that have happened that aren't very inspiring in the monastic order.
55:06
But overall, I still
Zach 55:08
think it. I mean, this is kind of miraculous that after 2500 years, it hasn't denigrated to a point where, you know, it's not something that's inspiring, it is still inspiring to people still encouraging to people, it's still inviting to people in and then you never know where you're gonna end up. So it comes in and ends up getting like landing an engine bit of all places. I mean, I think that part's kind of funny, but like, it's also a very beautiful thing. And by the very, from the side of practitioners and monastics, you know, that there is a responsibility of, of being authentic, you know, not not just pretending to be something good, but actually being authentically involved in something very wholesome. You know, and I think by and large, that is still enough of the case where the needle tip in people's minds that there's this even for, like I said, even from other cultures, there's, there's a, there's a good reputation there that that attracted this man.
Host 56:12
Yeah, yeah, right. And, for me, it was another learning experience with me and just in my own evolution and growth is that I think when I first got into meditation, and it very much became an identity of you know, I was of a passionate meditator. And these are the codes I want to live by. And this is how I want my behavior to be transformed and my interests and it was really, really quite a dramatic transformation to go through and it was painful as well to figure out how I was still me but how I was also going to incorporate this practice into the new me and one of the more painful clumsy ways that got incorporated was in dividing the world between you know, meditators and non meditators, or meditators and serious meditators and making these kind of divisions among people. So that, you know, I would want to interact with people that were putting more of a premium and priority on the practice and being immersed in Myanmar is just a great opportunity to come out of this and to see all the different levels and gradations. And so, for me, it was seen someone of his struggles, being able to benefit and interact and commit to this kind of training really helped to blur those lines and show the really the unimportance of those lines of who's a meditator and who's not And who am I, you know, I want to call this person is serious meditator and I want to associate with people of this category, and then just seen more people as people and and those labels break down. It also reminds me of, you know, years before that, there was another very, very short anecdote, just a short conversation that really affected me. Where I was staying in the sunshine hills for about half a year I was living in a cave there and Practicing quite a bit every day and got to know a lot of the villagers around. And there was one family who lived nearby that had a son in his like 20s or 30s or something and kind of known as the town loser just kind of didn't amount to anything and had an alcohol problem and couldn't really hold down a job. And I always like the guy like I had some really nice conversations with him. I'm kind of gentle. But I also saw that, you know, his life wasn't really all the way together. And at one point, he said, Oh, you know, next water festival, I'm going to ordain as a monk for 10 days. And I said, Yeah, that's great. And he said, Yeah, you know, 10 days like that, those 10 days will be I will have absolute purity in my conduct. It'll be stainless and it's just, I'll be able to hold on to those 10 days is something really precious where I know that I can't violate anything. He said, I can't do more than those 10 days. I can't go any longer but I know I can do those 10 days. And that was like one of the most inspiring things I've ever heard in a country of dama and 10 years of being here, like a drunk loser, who can't hold down a job as an alcohol problem, who's going to ordain 10 days as a monk? And that's all he can do. That is one of the most inspiring quotes I heard here. And the reason why is that even someone at his station with his struggles, recognizes that for 10 days, he will have joyful living by following ethics. And that was just astounding to me, from the country I come from, that that level of wisdom would be there. And, you know, of course, it'd be wonderful if he could manage more than 10 days and, you know, of course you wish for that. Maybe he has by now, but just the fact that that he saw a sense of accomplishment of living that pure lifestyle for whatever period of time you can manage for whatever commitment he wanted to give to the Dhamma that he would get a return on that and And so like these kind of anecdotes and stories just kind of, you know, help you to take these labels off which really aren't helpful of dividing the world and you know of assessment and judgment according to you know, your own belief of someone's effort and commitment to the Dhamma.
Zach 1:00:16
I don't even know how to respond to that. It's a
1:00:22
it's touching. It's
1:00:26
it's, it's really profound. It's like,
Zach 1:00:32
Okay, the first noble truth is their suffering, but there is also you know, if there if there wasn't a way out of suffering,
1:00:41
then
Zach 1:00:42
then something like drinking becomes makes more sense because when you see the suffering and people need relief, and whether that's less unhealthy or more unhealthy, but you understand the drive for relief, but that there exists in the world also Something that can give people some true relief. And then if they keep going even more, but at any what you're what I hear you talking about it at any level, it can be so profound. Right? So 10 days of purity just it gives them some, you know, for someone who probably, not only has the village kind of leaned on Yeah, like haranguing him for, you know what he isn't isn't doing. He probably does it internally as well. But it gives him like 10 days of
1:01:33
something to be proud of.
Zach 1:01:35
But also, not just because he accomplished some goal. I mean, there's that too, but that he also got an insight into even if he's not ready for something wholesome. He knows it exists and he participated and he, he didn't just read about it, he took a drink, so to speak, you know, from that, that spring. And it's rare. You know, I think that's what, it's just such a it's almost like a miracle that there's something other than this giant river that just flows in one direction, just roiling in loba, dosa and Moha. You know, craving aversion and delusion, it just seems to continually feed upon itself and generate more of just that the fact that there is anything else and the fact that people like this gentleman that stayed with you, or this, this town losers as you, you painted the picture, you know, that, that for anyone, there's a place to rest and even if you rest there long enough, you can actually engage it and, and come out of that river altogether. I mean, that's, that's, that's almost like a miracle. That that even exists in it's like a it's almost like a loophole. And that's funny to think of loop. Because we were talking about loops, and I'm talking about things, regenerating itself a little bit dosa Moha, regenerating, regenerating itself. So we talked about this gentleman staying with you being stuck in these loops, even though he's got a glimpse of something else a glimpse of understanding a glimpse of honesty keeps looping back looping back. He probably there's bigger loops to even after engine he probably at least to some degree looped back. But every little bit of truth that you encounter on the loop. that bit of peace you encountered in the loop, those little interjections most of the loops, not like that, right. But the engine bin was was part of that loop. You know, even though most of its coming back, coming back to the behaviors you stuck in,
1:03:49
in that loop, he got a glimpse of something else
Zach 1:03:52
in that loop. The 10 days for the other guy caught a glimpse of something else. But to call it a loophole, you know, it's it's Do I because you loop around loop around, that's what life is keep looping around stuck in these habit patterns based on low but also Moha. And a loophole can actually can take you all the way out of the loop. So sorry, I that's an insight, like, excited about like, just to call it a loophole, you know, because the loop is the world is samsara and that there's a loophole in the loop is. Yeah, I am glad that it doesn't just take one caliber person to get there that bandits existence can be touched by anyone. And so that's what this story of, of your visitor represents.
Host 1:04:46
Right? Exactly that that these opportunities are open for for everyone and that when the Dharma has been exported and, and delivered in foreign places, so there's less of this kind of opportunity. It's more Like you have to fit yourself inside, whatever the teaching or the teacher is just by virtue of not having as many options. But in a place as rich and fertile and varied as Myanmar, there's just so many ways to engage based on what you're looking for and who you are and, and where you're at in life. And that the thing I liked about the story about this, this kind of town drunk was that all he was able to give at this time in his life was 10 days of purity as a monk, like that was the only thing he can get. That was the most he can renounce. And he was, you know, self conscious. He was self conscious about it. He was self referential, like, he realized that's what he was doing. He was explaining to me, these are the 10 days that I'm giving, this is all I can renounce. And I get so much pleasure from it. And, and that's great. And in other kind of countries, you don't really get to engage at the level that you're able to, you need to adapt yourself. And it also reminds me if we go back to engine Ben, there's this other story. I'd like to juxtapose where I had in one of the pilgrimages, I had led. We went to engine bin and there was one meditator from Australia who was really touched and moved by being there, his meditator many years of meditation experience, really, really committed to the practice and something and engine Bennett really affected him deeply. And when he went back home, he spoke to a teacher in his tradition and just mentioned his idea that he wanted to go back to engine bend and live there indefinitely, you know, maybe for several months, maybe for a year and just kind of be around Mandela and soak up the vibes and, you know, meditate and maybe learn Burmese and hang out with the locals and just kind of grow in this way. And he spoke to a teacher that was very, very experienced, you know, many probably 40 years or so of meditation and teaching. And the teacher actually cautioned him away from this and said, Oh, you know, this is a very strong place and you know, you have to be very high level and things could happen, you don't understand and you know, you have to have to kind of pass through some other stages and, and commitments and developments before you can really do that and So he was talked out of it he, I heard about the story many years later. And he, he had some regret that he had never acted on on this moment where he wanted to do that, as it was he ended up getting married and getting kind of tied down with job and responsibility and that door closed and he always felt the sense of regret that he had never had that opportunity before. And I mean, when I heard that story, I was so upset I was I just felt so so sorry for him and you know, really kind of angered at the advice that he was given that, that he was turned away kind of, and but this story as a juxtaposition is really fascinating. Because here you have, you know, a committed meditator who spent, you know, completely transformed and redesigned his life to fit into being able to meditate and observe the principles and the practice and the ethics of meditation. And he's being told he's not advanced enough to be able to go and follow his dreams by by living here, and then you have a falling on his face. Holic with no Buddhist background, who goes and stays and is able to derive that benefit? And I think this, this juxtaposition kind of tells us a different way of thinking about the practice of Burma and other countries.
1:08:12
Yeah, you know, it's a sad,
Zach 1:08:15
you know, and but it goes back to something I think, time and time again, I just see more and more support for this idea that we have to, at some point come out of other people being responsible for our practice. We have to make our own decisions, even if they're not perfect, you know, that we have, we should listen to other people I think we should take in stuff but ultimately, I think we have to have our own discernment we have to even make mistakes. So what if what if he did go there and what if it was too intense? What what might he learned about it like from experience rather than just from some authority telling him like what's what what the Rules are, you know, but I mean, I don't really want to get into the absurdity of that, like, who is someone else from somewhere else to say what the rules of engineering are? And who qualifies to meet them? I mean, this, it's just absurd. But even if he's right, how do you actually encourage someone to, to have experiences that would teach them that because if it's not, it just becomes a belief and that's just like becomes more like religious? You know, you believe these things are heard, but you don't really know that you don't, you know, like, how do you touch these things and to find out where the boundaries are yourself,
1:09:39
you know, and
Zach 1:09:40
so, so on the one hand, he he misses out on engine bend and the other and another thing he misses out on it's just his own ability to follow his enthusiasm and Donna, which I think is important and, and that kind of Dhamma adolescence where you do pursue what you're in Did you learn discernment along the way and grow in that kind of wisdom? I think it's essential. So I don't want to go off too much on that tangent about, you know, the juxtaposed you know.
1:10:14
But all the more.
Zach 1:10:18
I You're right, there's perhaps more of that in the West. That's just another benefit to me, Mr. They, you know, that dominance for everyone. You know, and if a place is too intense, you feel it and then you you, you still might benefit from so what it what if this guy went there, and he couldn't handle it for six months or kind of indefinite right there. There. He benefited but there came a limit, right. I'm sure he would benefit because he was so enthused about being there. And he'd already been there. He had already been there. Right.
Host 1:10:52
Yeah, so that was very moved by the experience. Yeah,
Zach 1:10:54
yeah. So you already had benefit there from that place. That's his wisdom. That's his experience. Do you want to go back there? Maybe he would learn that like, the the benefit is from that moment and you can't go back and retrace things, and maybe it wouldn't have been so beneficial the second time, but that would be another, it doesn't really matter what happens when he goes, whatever he experiences he can learn from. Yeah, I, it's, I don't want to get into how sad I feel about that, but but just how, you know how amazing with that kind of attitude is removed how amazing the opportunities are, and, and mimar not that mimar doesn't have its own issues. But that's not one of them, you know, this freedom to go and taste and engage in all kinds of possibilities and in all kinds of levels and ways to enter in the Dhamma for anyone at any level of interest, even if it's one person one morning, offering some rice to max that could be that simple. I mean, it could be just going to just To visit a temple or a monastery, I mean, there's so many ways to engage. And they all have a profound effect. They're all subjectively effective for the person wherever they're at.
Host 1:12:15
Right, right. And as I hear you say that one thing that comes to mind is this idea of gatekeeper. And gatekeeper has somewhat of a negative connotation. And there certainly that involved in it, but, you know, to flesh it out in fuller context. And to be more fair, these are kind of messengers and teachers and guides that have benefited from Donald practice and are then sharing it in their native countries, which is, you know, that part is is really wonderful. A lot of seeds were planted by these, these people that were these now teachers that were profoundly affected themselves and are now sharing it with a younger community. So that's a really, you know, I want to give fair due to the positive part of this and the role they play, but then that that kind of guide teacher can become something of a gatekeeper and something of a, you know, rule setting and evaluating and assessing and some degree of students giving up a measure of freedom for, you know, for that guidance and instruction and, and I think, again that like you, I don't want to go too too much into the negative part of it, I want to look at the opposite of the contrast of Myanmar. And again, not like me and Mars, the perfect country or the perfect Buddhist practice, they've definitely got into some concerns and in other areas and podcasts and talks, but yet even with that, you can live this life here, you can come here and make your own decisions, have your own freedom of thought and practice. Go where and engage at the level that you're looking for the depth or the shallowness or the breadth or or whatever it is you want. And you you can still incorporate these guides and teachers and instructor And you can even submit to, to their, their wisdom and really follow through and, and, and, and learn under them. And yet at the same same time this can be done without gatekeepers, this can be an independent decision of one's own agency to decide how and what it is they want to do. And when you come to a country like me and Mar and you come with a sense that you don't have a gatekeeper that is, is deciding where you go and how you do it, that you are able to find your own path and that is something that will, everywhere in life, you hope that one is making their own choices, that's that's, that's obviously a good practice to do. But you can't necessarily make your own Dhamma choices to the extent in a country where there's not as much offering so to be able to come in a place like this where it is so rich and fertile, have the opportunities available the buffet table as we just talked about in a recent podcast that You don't have you could bypass these gatekeepers and make and live with your own decisions as we see in some of these examples.
1:15:06
Well, you can still get, I mean,
Zach 1:15:10
for your guests, I mean, it's, it's not black and white, it's not a gatekeeper or you're all on your own. Right. Right. So the what's happening here in Miramar isn't the opposite of gatekeeper. It's like, they just the people that are playing a gatekeeper role are playing a different role of just encouragement, enthusiasm and passing on. You know, I mean, he had your guests had amandla there, so he wasn't just winging it, you know,
1:15:37
the
1:15:40
there's still people
Zach 1:15:43
the role that can be played by people that are perhaps more experience and encouraging and guiding you don't have to play a role of gatekeeper. I think, Well, I think there's a time and a place for it, you know, there's, there's a skill and gatekeeping I think when someone you know, just Like, if you're sure someone's going to really harm themselves, you know, then really harmful I mean, a kid touching fires not going to kill them, you know, just touching and they fall into a whole nother thing, right but like, you know, just touching it to know that it can burn your finger, you know, they're not that might be good for them you know, and to just have some, some spectrum of like, you know, like, I'm only going to jump in like a parent, you know, kind of forbidding something, you know when it's at this degree, you know, maybe and maybe that person acting as a gatekeeper thought that was the case you know, but I don't know I can't go too far into that i i think there's something absurd about that. But I I do have a feeling that that gatekeeper actually really probably did see it that way. But, but I you can't play a gatekeeper role in someone's life. In Dharma life indefinitely at its someday, you know, hopefully that person themselves becomes wise enough to to also be able to share with other people and perhaps guide other people. So they have, you know, they may play a gatekeeper role someday they how are they going to gain that wisdom? You know, like you can't maintain that parent child relationship forever.
Host 1:17:25
Yeah, right. Well, boy, it's all it's all really great stuff. Were there any other last thoughts you wanted to share before we close down?
Zach 1:17:32
No, I think that feels good. I just appreciate you telling the story and sharing it. I'd actually forgotten about it. What the reference was as soon as as soon as you were about 10 minutes in I'm like, Oh, yeah, I know what he's talking about. But at first when you talk when you said you know the engine Vin story, I was like, not sure. If you had said Airbnb guests. Perhaps. I would have it Yeah. Anyways, yeah, I it was enjoyable to go through this Again, you know and I hope it was enjoyable for our listeners as well.
Host 1:18:05
Yeah, just kind of exploring and being a little playful with the format's that we do and realize that we had some some stories we wanted to get out there and take more time than just a few minutes. So we'll see how this is received. definitely encourage listeners to share your comments and feedback and let us know what you think and what you want more of and next time around on these Myanmar Dhamma diaries. We'll hear a story from Zack I know he has some some good ones that will will entertain and inspire and inform as well.
1:18:34
Yeah, great. Be happy to share.
Host 1:18:36
Great Okay, well let's close it here and and thanks so much for for for playing listener and questioner an examiner with me on this. Absolutely. Okay,
1:18:46
take care. Take care, bye bye.
Host 1:18:54
One of the beautiful things about Burmese monasteries is that everyone can practice selfless giving. I've seen poor families give just one spoonful of rice to a communal alms bowl. And I've seen still poor families wake up at five in the morning to collect flowers to offer to the Buddha shrine. As our Insight Myanmar podcast runs on the power of donation, we also greatly appreciate any amount of support to keep our engine running. If you'd like to give a monthly donation through Patreon, that continued support will allow us to continue making these episodes available to you. If even a small fraction of our listeners donated the equivalent of a cup of coffee as a monthly pledge, we could be funded well into the future. If your income is less stable, we greatly appreciate one time donations as well of any amount. If you find the Dhamma interviews, we are sharing the value and would like to support our mission we welcome your contribution. You may give the patreon@www.patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar as well as paypal@www.paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar in both cases That's Insight Myanmar one word i en si gh T. MYAN m AR. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation please feel free to get in touch with us. You have been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we invite you to rate review and share our podcast as every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Also, make sure to check out our website for our complete episodes including additional text videos and other information at www dot Insight myanmar.org that's one word AI n si gh t m YA n ma r dot o RG. If you cannot find our feed on your podcast player, please let us know and we will ensure that it could be offered there in the future. There was certainly a lot lots to talk about in this episode and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a post suggest a guest request specific questions and join in on discussions on our Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. And also welcome to join our Facebook and Instagram accounts by the same name of Insight Myanmar. If you're not on Facebook, you can also message us directly at Burma dama@gmail.com. That's b u r ma dhamma@gmail.com. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that forum. We would also like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible, especially our two sound engineers, Martin combs and darnay along with Zack Kessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with editing caching that Campbell does our social media templates, and drag goes Pandita and Andre Francoise make our sketches. We'd also like To thank everyone who has assisted us bringing the guests who have made up the show thus far, as well as the guests themselves for agreeing to come and share. Finally, we are immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We also remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and not necessarily reflective of the host or other podcasts contributors. If you find the Dhamma interviews, we are sharing a value and would like to support our mission we welcome your contribution. You may give monthly donations at patreon@www.patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar, or one time donations on paypal@www.paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar. In both cases that's Insight Myanmar one word. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation, please feel free to get in touch with us.