Transcript: Episode 7: Sayalay Khanticari

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Sayalay Khanticari, which appeared on April 9, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

 

 

Sayalay Khanticari  00:05

It was very happy, like, you know this feeling of success and while my career is going very well I was not looking inside, you know, I was more busy with outside things like my career, how to move to the capital, how to be successful. I started thinking like, wow, what what, what is the sense of like, what is the meaning what is the meaning of my life? When Argentina, he was working in a restaurant and he, I just I was alone. So I talked to him and with him and he told me that he used to travel around all South America. Just working and being hear a bit there and he was very happy doing that and he felt very free. He said Wow, what a freedom he has I would like to have that in mind start opening opening and then we went to to pay pero again, I know over there one guy told us like oh you you are going to Lima you should go for a meditation retreat. And 10 days in, in noble silence for free. They motivation of our trip change. And we are looking for more digging in our hearts. Why in America, American Yogi I was doing service with herring. Emma giti and she was bright. She was so peaceful. She was so happy. He went, Whoa, where did you go? She say no, I went, I just came back from Myanmar. Oh, I want to go to me and we were only going. tradition. Actually, we didn't know the tradition worth at that time we thought that that was the technique and that was the way of meditation and later on, like after coming to Myanmar, like a like this, this new panorama of mainly meditation techniques. I met also nuns and monks, like communities that we don't see going a tradition and neither westleigh Wow, wow. Ay ay. Ay, ay. Ay ay. Ay ay. ay. ay. ay. Ay Ay, ay. Ay and is.

 

Host  03:55

The interview that follows was c'est la kachari, a Buddhist nun from Colombia. Who has been living in Myanmar for several years, was one of the most moving interviews I've done to date. We've had guests speak with courageous honesty before on the Insight Myanmar podcast, and indeed Frank and fearless discussions about the Burma Dhamma is one of the primary objectives of our overall work, but I don't think I've yet heard someone speak with so much emotional honesty. And I think that is part of the reason why I found this talk so touching on such a deep level. Our discussion unfolded slowly at first, as she later confessed, a nervousness set in during the initial few minutes. She was unsure about the purpose of the talk and wondered how so much conversation time would be spent. But she soon settled in and what followed was deep, rich and inspiring. As you will hear, while the arc of her story clearly inclined towards the Dhamma, it vibrates with tender human emotion. And the interview stuck with me days after c'est la canta Chari infuses so much open hearted honesty and vulnerability into her story. That I think one Can't help but feel more vulnerable oneself as well just in the listening after the interview sale a circle back to her initial reticence, mentioning that the experience felt just like to dama friends having a wonderful conversation which just happened to be recorded. I'm gratified that Insight Myanmar has been able to continue hosting such a diverse guest list, and inaccurate and somewhat odd narrative with the orientalist and Neo colonialist overtones prevails about the spread of Dhamma that it moved primarily from traditional Asian countries to middle class or affluent white communities in the Western world. It continued adherence to this distorted storyline causes us to overlook the richness of the damas actual spread around the world. In part to combat that narrative on these podcasts, we've interviewed both native Burmese voices and practitioners from the US Europe and across Asia, and say La is the third South American Yogi we've connected with. There's great value in hearing voices that are not from what we traditionally think of as the west or the East. But rather that provide another layer for understanding how this practice has continued to shape our lives and cultures no matter where we're from. Now it's time to take in c'est la canta Chari story, in her own words, a story which begins with her life as a girl in the Colombian countryside, far outside the capital, Bogota, and ends with her as a nun sitting down in a Yangon recording studio. Let's get to it.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  06:27

I just let you know. My English is not native English

 

06:31

is fine. Yeah. Sorry. Okay. It's fine. Yeah. Okay. You

 

Sayalay Khanticari  06:35

should start doing interviews also in Spanish. You know,

 

Host  06:38

I have to learn Spanish first.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  06:39

Yeah, yeah. But I think many of the people, you have a lot of contacts that actually speak Spanish. I do remember the translation in Spanish. of the Golden land. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So it might be interesting. It would be good.

 

Host  06:56

Yeah. That's a whole other audience out there. Yeah, a lot. Right, right. So you reminded me that last time we met each other was that treading on? Yeah. And several years ago, and I didn't remember that. And then later in the conversation, we were talking about a Colombian couple. And I said, Oh, yeah, I think I met them too and realized that I had met you as a lay person. And that's why the image wasn't coming in my mind. Yeah,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  07:19

we were a very different human beings at that time, you know, very different. I also, my, my, my picture about you is totally different. Oh, yeah. It was long ago. Yes, I was. Yeah, at that time. I was only in Myanmar. I just arrived to Myanmar. Maybe I was doing the it VMU diploma.

 

Host  07:43

That's the international Theravada Buddhist missionary University. mouthful. It bmu

 

Sayalay Khanticari  07:48

Yes. Yeah, you're gone. Yeah. So it was I like to call it like a scholarship. So at that time, we were there. And then we have this meeting with Daniel Tara and the other Burmese la Burmese Chanda deca le. So he was an Wagga. So that was our first meeting.

 

Host  08:12

Yeah. Great. So you're from Colombia? Where are you from in Colombia?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  08:16

I'm from Boca manga is a small sitting in Colombia. very conservative place,

 

Host  08:25

conservative how

 

Sayalay Khanticari  08:29

really like katolik I went to a Catholic school, only girls, and like a lot of these kinds of schools in the city. At the time, it was a small, like a small city. And, you know, like, live family values and just very close friendships like different from the Capitol. So that is my like, standpoint to compare because bucaramanga is different from Bogota and the the mindset of the people from the capital and then the light the province different. So yeah, I grew up there until later I move on to but what

 

Host  09:18

did you grow up in a religious Catholic family?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  09:21

Yes. All my family is Catholic and there are some political dissidents, but they are Christians. So, yeah, all the families cattolica I grew up a psychedelic also I did every formula step. And what was your faith like? Um, it was. I tried to go to church every Sunday. I tried to like because kind with everyone. Try to share And try to, to see like the qualities of God. In, in me in the people around. The religion was very strong for me when these values of Catholicism were very strong during my high school.

 

Host  10:18

So you would call yourself a believer?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  10:20

Yeah, I think so during that during that period of time, really, really I, I had a strong faith actually. But later on when I went to the University, little by little, like, the, the knowledge was, like, huge knowledge, knowledge, and like, start reading more about religion. I used to lose, I like lost faith. And I was not any more interested in, in Catholicism. I didn't. I didn't feel I was like receiving what I needed. That moment of In my life, so I just like, step back a little bit. And but anyway I am I kept my, like my moral principles with me and I think that was very helpful. Right during that young age.

 

Host  11:20

Right. So you grew up really involved in Catholic education and religious practice and then by the time a university started to have some doubts or it wasn't quite meeting all your needs, and from there how what led you want to your spiritual journey that you're on now? What was the earliest?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  11:40

Yeah, actually, I think during the whole university, I was religious, a focus on the, on the career and just trying to figure out what to do with my life and then just, you know, like starting productive life to find fun trying to find a job I want to move to Botha that make my my mind busy I was not really looking for something special or I was not looking inside you know I was more busy with outside things like my career how to move to the capital how to be successful. And then just I move on to I move to Bogota and in Bogota I'm so I met a different like a spectrum of Sure. Sure. Friends I used are also working with indigenous. And like, in Colombia, we have a different actually a lot of groups indigenous and we different also kind of views about the world. So I started like the opening to different cultures, and different kinds of friendships. So, at that moment, I think I started like, Wow, there are different things but but still, you know, in my in the mindset was just enjoy the life. Sure. Going just a normal normal life, you know, normal in the sense that I had good job good friends you know good parties. boyfriend. How old were you?

 

Host  13:31

2023 so I was early 20s Yeah, sounds similar to my experience when I was in Tokyo around the same Yeah, just away from my own culture, a bigger world, Expanded Universe, lots of opportunities, a sense of excitement, thinking this is the life and then what happened.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  13:47

So then I went to a job. Like, that was like the last best job. I had. Minister you're like, I'm like a government Right, like top government plays and I was very happy like, you know this feeling of success and while my career is going very well and I was like, you know, I like that kind of feeling of being just happy and okay and everything was good fine, but I had a boss that he was no. So, he was very demanding and he was really straightforward forward with with us about like, you are, this is not good enough. You need to do more. And at that time, I also start to look in work like, what is my purpose? Yes, I have a good job, but how I am helping others. Somehow like that is a big motivation. I have and I was not sure at that time what really I was doing for others apart from myself, and I was I was happy because that kind of job but not not feeling content,

 

Host  15:15

right you had a sense of service.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  15:17

Yeah. And I was a little bit like very naive and just thinking to myself even at that time I was not support in any way to my parents or my family, you know, library like very outside like in my warm my mind. And then so because of this boss, and all like this stress and vitamin in that job, I started thinking like, wow, what what, what is the sense of like, what is the meaning, the meaning of my life, what I'm doing and for the first time I went abroad, so abroad and I met more many different country in Peru. I went to Peru and to Congress about anthropology and indigenous rights and a very interesting subject. And I met also a lot of people. And between that people I met one Argentina and he was working in a restaurant and he, I just, I was alone. So I talked to him and with him, and he told me that he used to travel around all South America. Just working a bit here a bit there. And he was very happy doing that, and he felt very free. He said, Wow, what a freedom he has. I would like to have that. So when I came back to Colombia, I told my boyfriend at that time, or Look, I met this guy. I think I want to do something like that. So We, my boyfriend at that time, we decided to do a backpackers trip. Nice. Yeah. How old? Were you? twin? 36? I think that's a good time for it. Yeah. I mean, maybe for the US and other countries is quite all. But I think I met I went to a very conservative everything you know, around me, so I never thought like abroad. Yeah. It was very hoppy and satisfy like, like in my city, my friends. And anyway, we went into that trip. And that was the trip to the dama. So we went to Ecuador, like hitchhiking the most part of the trip. So we stopped in Ecuador, and then we started seeing different things outside Colombia. One of the first things I start feeling about the culture was feeling safe? not being afraid of being outside a dark place in Ecuador. Right in Colombia? You had that fear? Yeah, sometimes, especially in Bogota. I don't I don't mean all Colombia. But yeah. Yeah, it's this is not so safe. Meeting with the kindness of people that you don't know. That is the first time you you you know, and very beautiful Ecuador and then you know that the hard to start like the mind start opening opening and then we went to Peru again. And over there one guy told us like, Oh, you, you are going to Lima, you should go for our meditation retreat. And 10 days in, in noble silence, and for free. And that's good. Yeah. It sounds it sounds good. But I was like, What inside? No, I don't want it. Yeah. At that, at that time already my husband so so we, we we married married your boyfriend? Yeah. So he say no we should go this is a very good I say no I don't want to go you go alone and we stay with my friends Finally we went together and that was our his first time and my first time in, in in like closing like being close to a meditation technique and then which tradition was the thing going on? Yeah. And and to the de my is my first time like near 10 days in in silence like trying to keep quiet trying to not to communicate trying to see what is happening with your mind. Like listening so straightforward Dhamma talks He was really, really very important experience in life. What year was that? Well, dude, I think 2011 no so long ago. So you've been on a fast track. Yeah. A very fast. Yeah. He's like no this No, stop. No stop. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like too many things in very, very. Oh, yeah,

 

Host  20:23

I was thinking this was some time ago. Yeah.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  20:27

I think 2011 and he was a really wonderful and after that, like, that actually changes all our plans, the backpacking trip.

 

Host  20:39

Hmm. So after that we, that's great. It affected both of you in the same way too, because, you know, different partners can be affected in different ways and no,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  20:47

for I mean, I don't say we've we, we reflect the same way. We saw the same, we had the same kind of conclusions about technique, but at the end, we will We're both we were happy,

 

Host  21:01

right? You would both made profound changes in your life at the same time. I remember when I took my first course in Tokyo, and I was so profoundly affected that and I didn't know what to do with this new this, this new practice and was transforming my life. And it was definitely I wasn't in a relationship, but it had a different effect on the different friendships I had. And because so many of those friendships were oriented around other kinds of activities and, and some of those friends, the friendships transformed, it transformed to a higher level because they also kind of followed on that path and we're making the same changes in their life. And then the ones that were were kind of continuing on as before it became became more difficult. So with a partner, and especially when you're married to and traveling around with that, that's just all the more important of how you're thinking and yeah, let's practice Yeah,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  21:51

yeah, it was like, I sometimes I think this is like a very good romantic story of a In Buddhism, you know, oh, by the way, similarly in the in the frame of Burmese I at that time, I didn't see what was happening. But it was really, really a start like it's a very bright spark in our lives.

 

Host  22:16

So what happened after that first course,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  22:18

then the motivation of our trip change, and we are looking for more digging in our hearts. So we went next to Argentina to also going so we learn actually Western learning about the retreats. And that actually there were not only in Peru, but all through South America. So we say Oh, perfect, and maybe we just can catch up the dates. And so we did. I mean, it was not easy because at that time, even at that time they retreat were full, especially for for us in the female side of the of the retreat. But we had these suitable conditions and then we went and practice and did more than they retreat in Argentina and then we stay for a while in Brazil also. And that really, really changed

 

Host  23:15

the National Center in Brazil.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  23:16

Yeah, in dama Santi, right, we start it has been so fast and you've seen that there is a tool or there is a way to to acknowledge what is happening in our mind and how that is connected with with our lives. And I was totally disconnect I think I don't mean that now. I am just oh really super connected. But that really was transformative for both of us. And the nice thing that was that that make make a strong our friendship. And he was very fun to share with him. Also about He, his experience and my experiences were so different but, but still dangerous for for the Dharma knowledge, actually, they're starting to be wider and wider and then after we plan that trip to be a short one, and then we keep it longer, longer longer and then we just extend the trip for a little bit more than one year. So, that was also like our way to renunciation, it was also a part to, to let go some let go of plans, let go of like going rush for the job. I need to go back to get to not to be to not cut my my CV and to get easier a job and yeah, konkola Columbia is also not so easy to find jobs and Right,

 

Host  24:53

right, that's I mean, that's really an issue that if you're doing something for longer and longer, extended experiences if if it's a shorter time You could say, Oh hey, I had this extended time here, or I did this but then when it starts to grow a little beyond that, then it gets a little harder to show how you're developing and you're proficient in your profession. So your, your, as a sense of renunciation of the qualifications and future job opportunities really by devoting to the Dhamma in that way,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  25:17

yeah. And also also to see different life, you know, if for me was like, more like, find a really way to approach them, what is the what is the meaning or what, what I would like to know or to explore and actually was like, also how we look for that, trying to, to balance our practice with our activities and use combine that and just having like a healthy, peaceful, harmonious life with us, and we Like partnering with everything everyone found so yeah, that was the beginning and without an jet

 

Host  26:08

right so last time I checked there aren't any direct flights from Columbia to Myanmar. Yeah, so there's you took somewhat of a Securitas Securitas route in coming here so how did was Myanmar your first stop in Asia? or How did you end up here?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  26:25

No So after that, like the interest grow grew to know about them. What is that

 

Host  26:33

and of course when you're in the passion of kitchens and serving and and everything you just you hear about two places you know in the process Oh, I have to go here I have

 

Sayalay Khanticari  26:41

to say so. And in that order, we decided so we say okay, we go to India. So we went to India so we save we work around one year more. We save some money. Fortunately, we had like a steel. We Were Young Very creative. So, we found a way to organize and then we went to India and keep meditating. We did also our first long retreat. Where did you go in India? The global Vipassana pagoda. dama. Mumbai. Yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't remember either. We went to the mcgeary. But then for the long retreat, we went to the where the poly Institute is there. I don't remember I know the name. Yeah.

 

27:32

But we we took a 20 day course.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  27:36

course and then there was the first long retreat and actually in demography I met also meditators from Myanmar, Burmese. Yeah, and actually one American Yogi. I was doing Cerebus with hearing the mcgeary and she was bright. She was so beautiful. wish she was so happy. I said, Wow, where did you go? She say no, I went, I just came back from Myanmar. Oh, I want to go to me. And so we planned that trip to India to be six months, six month trip. But at that time, we took the risk to change our plans. And then we went actually first to Sri Lanka. And in Sri Lanka, the Myanmar idea was really really strong. Because we made one word. One single es mon that was trained in hearing me and mark and he really, really advise as you should go to Myanmar. If you are really really interested in meditation, you should go and learn and my teacher is alive. You should you should go, who was a teacher said Oh, you Pandita Rama And then so we signed for the retreat, this international retreat. And we were accepted. So we traveled to Myanmar and then we cancelled our our six month plan, because he was already over the time. And, and then we came to me and Martin said appended

 

Host  29:22

to the 60 day Yeah,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  29:24

yeah with all like, we, we were only going tradition. Actually we didn't know the tradition worth at that time we thought that that was the technique and that was the way of meditation and later on, like after coming to Myanmar like like this, this new panorama of many meditation techniques and to see the Buddha you know, like the teacher who who was the teacher will is like Myanmar has the strong Buddhist tradition and that was really, really supportive for our practices. I can I can talk for me for myself. And during that two month retreat I met also nuns and monks, like communities that we don't seem going a tradition. Right, right. And neither westleigh Wow. Wow. Like they are medicating all their lives to the practice to studying to to explore them, the Buddha's teachings. And, you know, we were like, kind of hypnotized by amortized, yeah. Yeah. By by the Myanmar supportive conditions of meditation. Right. And so we said these two months retreat and,

 

Host  30:53

and what was that like coming from having practiced the single traditions so intensively and with dedication To then step out and try and try something new intensive,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  31:03

difficult, how difficult because at the beginning like you, you, you, you are like you think oh, this is the thing, wow. And then you you give and then I was already very happy with, with the meditation in going up and then we will learn about mahasi shadow and like with a different style and with more information about the Dharma and the change of the technique was for me was a bit difficult because I was already My mind was inclining to, to the breath and like an a banner in the nostrils and to change that to move my attention to to the abdomen and to understand to get the understanding that There were actually just objects. And actually that the mind just chief between objects, like any object in our, any of our sixth sense doors, and it was a difficult thing to accept. But the Pandita my teachers are really really persistent. And you know, when you are in front of a monkey because my meditation teacher at that time was a monk with the help with one Sally that was translating wonderful Sally.

 

Host  32:34

Sally is not we should say,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  32:35

yeah, yeah, an American nun, very senior. That was like you trust. I mean, you draw us in the in the teacher. And every day we had also meetings with panorama, so he in de Mattox, I don't remember if every day or every other day, but he was I mean seeing these Hmong I think at that time, the US maybe 89, or 90 just passed away last year, right? Yeah, I think two years ago, okay. And seeing him with that this strange, you know, with that determination to dish totally confident of his words and

 

Host  33:26

I'm having a living teacher in front of

 

Sayalay Khanticari  33:27

exactly and and many, many seniors, like meditators around it was really, really good to trust and say, okay, just shift the attention to the abdomen, right. But if you follow the instructions and right,

 

Host  33:43

but one question if you were so dedicated and satisfied with your practice up to that point, why did you make the decision in the first place to try something new?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  33:51

Like the one thing is, I learned that this was also Dhamma. This was also the Buddha's teachings Going in one of the Dhamma talks he mentioned that if you go if you finish the retreat and the people start asking you where were you doing there 10 days in silence, what is that? And he mentioned Okay, you just tell the people you are practicing, you are learning about morality. And you are learning how to concentrate a lot how to how to understand your mind. And that's all I saw that the same thing was happening in London. It was the training of understanding the mind and it was actually seen similar tool, similar tool and, and we trust the environment and everything and seen also because this retreat is international retreat. So mainly people from from the US from euro, Australia, you know, no, no Burmese. Actually all foreigners came that gr from China. From also many places in in Asia, I mean is is like a very good example like here results also something important and less learn. I mean why not, you know, anyway we had I have some kind of prevention, you know, like feeling a little maybe a guilt or while I'm doing something wrong because I should only practice this way. But anyway we do so, okay, we we just practice it and then we learned actually more about about the like this base and the grounds to, to develop our minds and to understand better, better what is the Buddha's teaching so is deeper. I felt, I felt the panorama retreat gave me a deeper Understanding and more joy in what I was doing. Like and also like more sparks, you know, into into what is the meaning of the training your mind understands. Yeah, what is happening? Yeah, it was a really important for me was a very important retreat is a longer time there after the 60 days Yeah, after the retreat. We both have Yeah, um I say maybe nine months,

 

Host  36:32

nine months. Okay. And this was your first stop in Myanmar? Yeah, yeah. So you went from the airport to bendita Rama and then nine months later?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  36:40

Yeah, we we stopped in dama. girI. No dama de Nino is the name of the going down my god

 

Host  36:48

Tama Jyoti in Yangon, Natasha center tradition of SM

 

Sayalay Khanticari  36:51

Yeah. Before before the retreat. And we learn how to deal with guilt because At that time, we already knew that we might sit there retreating, in Benita, Rama and then at that time we started learning like, Oh, this is one tradition. This is another tradition, tradition. We don't have this concept. You know, I don't I didn't have the concept of traditions when I started practicing meditation because my interest was using meditation and learning what was there and But anyway, we Yeah, we're still being done by God and then we went to drama.

 

Host  37:35

Yeah, right. But that sense of guilt. I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're not how to say you're not criticizing or having any negative feelings whatsoever. You're, you're you're benefiting tremendously in your spiritual life from all of your background. In the passionate meditation under sn Goenka. You, you have this opportunity to to learn a different technique that they Basically you can only learn in Myanmar and doing it with all the respect and appreciation and the practice and from what you came

 

Sayalay Khanticari  38:07

by the mind is tricky, you know, like, because we also, I have a steel now, and I think I will be always grateful that we going yeah, I have this sense of gratitude, you know, because he, he even I didn't, I could not meet him in person, but he and the group of, of people around him, assistant teachers and everyone, they built community that is like, a door or a window to Dhamma. And this gratitude for him like, Wow, thank you. Thank you for being so clear about the importance of more moral training, five precepts, I mean, I was not thinking in that. So clearly after here Retreat, how that supports us to be to be more peaceful, more happy and just be mean okay, you know. So, all these are and then to learn about generosity What is the meaning of done in his retreats all these is there and i got i mean i learned from him or from the from this school and this deep gratitude is like a little bit also have a force inside maybe my personalities this way so, I was like feeling Oh, I should not do this because, you know, they they have been given me so much. But it's true. Like also is this kind of thinking, I'm not doing anything wrong,

 

Host  39:56

right but it's also like you you know that when the doctor Dharma has been spreading in some shape or form to the west for the last many, many years, certainly over 100 you can track how, where it came in from who and where it got disseminated, but to other parts of the world, it's been a pretty recent development. And it's not hyperbole to say that in some of these places across South America, that there are villages and and people that were living there that in all of human history had their very first contact with the Dhamma through a course of SM Glinka, which is an astounding statement to say that in in since the Buddha's time, 2500 years ago, no other teacher has brought this practice to some parts of the world entail sn Goenka such as how you got it. And, you know, and when you look at it that way, it's just it's astounding that people living in some of these far off places far outside the West which which, you know, has had its own tradition and bringing it back in various ways. Have have been able to benefit from this technique and grow in ways they never thought possible and lead them to where you are here sitting in a recording studio in Yangon wearing nuns clothing.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  41:10

Yes, yeah. Yes. So, right. Yes. Yes. So that is I mean, you you can you understand, you know, that, that makes us like these wanting to, to help to share these with all others. Sure, and is throwing so I don't, I don't, I cannot be totally sure that sera sera about them. But in my case, I never had heard or listened anything about Buddhism when I was in Colombia. It was not my right time, you know, later we will learn that we all have the right time. And maybe I saw some pictures of Buddha but that doesn't mean anything. And nevertheless, I think Columbia has been also going has been giving retreats For over 10 years now not going by himself, but

 

42:03

yeah, organization organization, right. Yeah, yeah.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  42:06

Going Conover, I think going guide us went to the US.

 

Host  42:09

Yeah. I don't think he ever visited South America. No, I could be wrong, but okay.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  42:12

Yeah. I think No, no, no, not at all. And, and then all these movement, and that was a big community. And it's so beautiful to meet a lot of good people, good, hard human beings. is like, I have hope in humanity. Again, you know,

 

Host  42:40

after the Glencoe retreats. Yes.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  42:42

Yeah, I learned impermanence, and nature. Everything is transforming. Everything is changing. So it's not true that if I have something, some quality, or a tendency of mine is not true. I cannot work on it. I have the change the chance to change that. In Colombia there is actually a big community I didn't have the chance to do to be in it. I only did one tender retreating in botany obovata and I didn't meet a lot of people just feel and I went to Argentina in Brazil, the big communities. Later on to let you know, I never went back to Colombia to live anymore. So after panorama, we stay

 

Host  43:31

here. Yeah. So what happened after that you spent the next nine months at Penny Toronto. Yeah,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  43:36

a beautiful Benita Macedo, his Dhamma talks are full of knowledge every night, new concepts, new new ways of describing the things that I was used to used to describe in another way or just to ignore not to see so much knowledge and he may I think I learned that was the Burmese way of teaching them Tons of knowledge and practice by near, you know how you grow your wisdom through all sorts of study and reading, and just like exploring in different ways and meditation. So, of course, like nine months, I never did a retreat more than 10 days the longest retreat was 20 days in only one time 20 days retreating in going and then after two months retreats and then I extend for nine months. I need to change a little I need to move outside a meditation center. And, and at that time it happens I we heard about the international Theravada Buddhist University in Yangon, and they re scholarships. Their opportunity for free right it's free, free, free

 

Host  44:59

Enrollment yeah free subsidized by the government.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  45:02

Yeah, yes. And and we say okay, let's let's look how what is that? And I totally different experience from meditation. And

 

Host  45:16

so you were starting to see more of the value of partiality and study after after you'd come to the practice from just the insight meditation, but from being around penita Rama and seeing and seeing how salable Pandita would disseminate knowledge and study Parvati into his discourses and how much that helped with your your own meditative work that led you to wanting to undergo greater intensive potty training yourself.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  45:43

Yeah, I love how you translate my words because that is my own. Yeah, but but but just making sure not too bad was and of course the the fear of our what what we are doing You had fear even then.  Because we were already more than one year in Myanmar. And so that means more renunciation to our lives in Colombia.

 

Host  46:12

So the fear was based on renunciation

 

Sayalay Khanticari  46:15

um, more than renunciation was like seeing how our life were changing so dramatically and just maybe like make a pause. in the, in the life we were building in Colombia, right. So we pause and then you have this all these maybe you have experience also maybe your family telling you what happened with you. Yeah, I didn't teach you this. What what? And so my family told from family all the time, very worry. Oh, you should come back you. What are you doing and what does meditation How long would it take you My mom, how many years it will take you to learn why so long. So, all these fears, you know, I mean, is difficult to stop thinking in the future and we are we are in my case I was raised up to be something and in whatever this thing I was thought to be successful. So, being a little bit out of this stream, maybe as the Buddha described, we the Dhamma is maybe against this stream you know is the only stream of Dharma right. So, that fear I mean this this this fear, but anyway we took the choice that we say yes, we will learn it yet. And actually one of the entrance questions in in in it ITBMU during the interview, so, there is one examination and then they ask you that you need to get from Interview with monks and then they asked me Do you know what is? pariyatti, patipatti, parivedha? or no, I don't know.

 

Host  48:12

Yeah.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  48:12

So I think they just accepted because they she doesn't know anything. Yeah. So we we went and yeah so we have Steve we did the diploma, one year diploma, diploma class and then we start learning about vinaya.

 

Host  48:31

So, which is the monastic discipline? Yeah,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  48:34

yeah. And then like exploring more about monastic life and then the suitors the discourses of the Buddha and all of these deep is that is I mean, really, Myanmar you we meet people with really deep dedication to study. Yeah, in some ways, some only by memory, but also every Deep I mean all the life dedicated to these dhamma studies and then abhi Dhamma that was one of my favorite classes and then we just continue so that were maybe one and a half years more

 

Host  49:15

and at the university I did two and a half years of university Yeah.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  49:18

Oh no, we only did diploma with but we took a little bit the university allow us to, to before our classes this semester, the diploma course started. We were allowed to have like, extra classes before because we didn't have idea about Bali or really anything and even know like holidays, like religious practices. And then also we did some months of Bali, beautiful months and and then we went To the university so they were staying we live in the university. I think we met at that time when I was in it. VMU

 

Host  50:07

right. That's right. We might try to gone When? Yeah.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  50:10

years and been in the universities. So I continue my practice in Panditrama. Used to go on the weekends. They have a beautiful library over there. Yeah. And, and later on, I went back to visit my family in Colombia. Yeah, because I promised them to be for Christmas. But he's already two years in Myanmar. So I, I had the chance one one friend helped me and I went to visit Colombia and like deeply in my heart Actually, I went to say goodbye. And to tell them that I was fine. I was happy Myanmar, but I want to continue my my studies my my life there.

 

Host  50:57

Did you go alone or with your husband?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  50:59

No, I went alone. And so during that time, my husband was interested in ordination. And at that time we already be at one time bout with our group of friends. And he was very interested in temporary ordination. We already had one ordination in Panditarama. We're doing for each for one month. And, and then so I went to Columbia, and he ordained as a monk. So you had to get permission. Yeah. Yeah, kind of. So he ordained, ordained as a monk when I was there. And when I came back, actually, he was still a monk. And when I came back from that tree, two months later, I also ordained

 

Host  51:54

so that's a pretty intense time in your life. You go back to Colombia for the first time after what was supposed to be a six month trip. You tell your family that your this extended time which is already beyond what they thought is actually now going to become indefinite while you're telling your family this big piece of news, your husband ordains. You come back to Colombia you come back to me and my from Colombia. Shortly after that you are dating. This is a pretty eventful time in your life. What year was this? Yes. Yeah,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  52:22

yeah, totally is. Sometimes he's like, really? There is why I tell you. What year was that this happened to you know, maybe 2016 2016 Yeah. unhear dana Nay, okay. I used a Christmas. I say we're doing Christmas 2016 with my family. And you know, Christmas is very important.

 

Host  52:52

time so before becoming a Buddhist nun, you celebrate Christmas.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  52:56

Yeah, how'd you say hang out? Are you doing my friend So, yeah. And so yep, I came back and I came back to back to back I went on after two months, I asked permission to say, Louis, to ordain and at that time my husband was a monk. So yeah, I started my practice of as a non like, looking how that will support my practice. Because I felt that that was a very supportive tool. Also in my life when I was in panorama, also that moving from panorama to powerg was a bit challenging.

 

Host  53:40

Alright, another move.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  53:41

Yeah. And when you move in so short time, and but again, this time, no guilt or anything, because now I've already seen diversity in dharma. And actually, that is a personnel journey, and so grateful with Benita Messiah doji at the same time in very good drama brothers and sisters now in panorama and it still is sometimes I go and visit my Dharma brothers and sisters. And yeah, so I started in pulk three years ago my ordination life.

 

Host  54:18

What made you choose powerg?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  54:20

I need to say to them. I told you I was very, very interested in our Dharma when I was in, in the university. And I had a very good friend that actually also she's meditation teacher, a Burmese meditation teacher in Bow,

 

Host  54:36

bow traditions, sister Dipankar?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  54:38

No, I hope she's my very good wish. I wish this one kind of friendship. No, her name is Elena singie. She's from the way she was my classmate. She She also introduced me a little bit with a bow practice. And we went together actually the first time in 2015 we went to Other to power computing. And we pay respect to Satoshi was amazing. And at that time they were having a four month retreat. I think so. And at that time I met another Western cellulase actually stay with one of them. And then I met they're like, nuns from from England and from Germany, from Lithuania from many places and also may like many, many, or there are many community there. Yeah, yeah, it was beautiful. I was very inspiring, inspired at that time. So I decided I should practice I should learn here. But at the time, also, I didn't know quite well.

 

Host  55:45

So it wasn't so it wasn't so much the technique per se that that brought you there but the community and let's say it was presence.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  55:52

Yeah. But but but the technique at the same time, I didn't know in detail, but I knew how They were sharing the Avi Dharma practice, because I had the opportunity to go to maybe two Dhamma talks. I remember perfectly one, where the meditation teacher was talking about the discernment and how to use the Dhamma like, as a map of meditation, and I was just learning that with a muscle that was wonderful for me seeing how actually the Buddha with a session is a practical machine. And plus all these community I saw that time different from day one I see no, but inspiring as well. And because my husband was also ordained there, so all those things yeah,

 

Host  56:45

there Yeah. I want to go back to that ordination of you and your husband when when he ordained and then you ordained was it done in mind of it being temporary or it being wait and see or it been probably this is for a long time? What was the intention on both the main station

 

Sayalay Khanticari  57:01

originally was a temporary ordination. And, and actually he is the ordain like for Westerners of how you translate what sign English

 

Host  57:15

right the rains retreats, yeah that's how a monk marks his years of how many rains retreats he's been through. So he's

 

Sayalay Khanticari  57:21

Florida for West Side and yeah, so it was temporary but actually our practices we use, it just happened. Like we were really really into into the life in the monastery into the practice to learning and use the time also use went through difficult also for for my side because it's also the light the changing of the relationship is really really really a big change but somehow also like I found a bear Interesting time in my life to learn, to learn, like to accept all these transformations that were happening. And yeah, but at the beginning was just temporary ordination and but you know, we we cannot say forever

 

Host  58:18

till now you're not sure if it's forever

 

Sayalay Khanticari  58:20

No I mean I now I am already three years none but the conditions do change and and I have seen so many friends also changing from non hood life to just go back to their homes and this can this can happen just the conditions are not any more there. So, but for now I I continue Simon

 

Host  58:48

yeah I can imagine in as a temporary ordination it's just kind of a temporary change in the status of how you relate but then has that continues. There's some kind of some kind feeling towards prioritizing the the Dhamma practice being front and center in your life very clearly over the partner. Mm hmm. And that I can imagine how difficult that would be. And both of you are going through it at the same time, both of you are, are basically taking those vows of marriage and transfer me correct me if I'm wrong, but transferring in some way those vows of marriage and do a vow of Dhamma. I don't know if the vow of marriage necessarily is dissolving and you're you're still figuring out what you're doing as you go on. But certainly, it's been put below this new vow of Dharma that you're taking Yeah. Which then you have to completely reorient towards. So yeah. Is that is that correct?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  59:45

Yeah, is to understand that the path of Dharma is a path that you would do by yourself with of course the support of others, including, for example, a partner so and Our relationship was like, gradually gradually transformed by, of course, by the living in community. And we we felt actually in some point, this marriage is not anymore. You know, you felt that

 

Host  1:00:18

Yeah. While you were in robes you mean yes, yes. Yeah, just you know when, like when that feeling came about,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:00:25

maybe, for me was maybe after the first year. Mm hmm. And it was like we didn't have time also to talk about... we were just involved in our practices. And you know Pa Auk is like very clear boundary between monks and nuns. We have actually a very clear separation... I mean two different communities. Each community has a different dynamic. Of course, we have the same teacher, but it's a different life. And so he was in his life with the monks and male side, and I was also growing my life with the with the nuns in the female side. So, actually, that was just a natural separation. And yeah, difficult though. But finally, like at this moment, we are just okay about it. And each one, of course, supporting each other, how to break that, that this friendship, you know, and of being partners in Dhamma, and just supporting as we can to support each other in our practices, and is also kind of a good thing to have a friend close like that, like from the first time like in the Goenka, like 'how was your meditation? What happened with you?' We kind of have this communication, like 'How are you? How is your practice going, what do you think?' And also, the seeds that grow in you have this sense of so precious, 'oh let's share' and also we met so many new people with the same kind of purposes and seeing also about the Spanish-speaking countries and what information is there and what is not, and working together to figure it out. How we can just also put our own seeds, or how to put some water in the seeds that are already there. So, yeah, right now he continues his path and my way also, and just supporting us as friends and I'm happy as still to be to be here in Myanmar.

 

Host  1:03:20

So do you feel like your marriage is officially dissolved then? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Did you do anything legally with that?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:03:26

So, not Not really. Because I used to be a lawyer. So our marriage was legally not considered marriage for the law, but actually we had some papers and then this is very easy to just make another note to say not anymore from this time. Actually, we visited later to Columbia. He went to a monk and I visited my family as a nun at the same time. You know, he was in a different period. But we, we, we, our dates yeah overlap for maybe one week or two weeks. He was coming to Myanmar already and I was arriving to Colombia. But we didn't actually do any paper or anything because there was no need. And because actually, our, our relationship has been always connected with Dhamma.

 

Host  1:04:41

Yeah. How did your families relate to that decision of seeing you to marry together and have this time together and then

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:04:48

They don't understand. They don't understand. I think they cannot be sad because they don't understand what is happening. His family's is okay because they are from the capital so like the mindset is a little bit more open and different. My family is more worried about my future like what will happen in old age and dah dah dah....

 

Host  1:05:19

yeah their daughters yeah in the world living by yourself yeah hairstyle and yes fashion

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:05:26

yeah no hair and only this uniform Yeah What are you doing? brainwash Annalisa these things but still use connected with them and trying to share as much as I can through like Internet yeah with them but they are okay I mean at this point they are okay we have been already in Myanmar for six years

 

Host  1:05:51

have they visited?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:05:53

No, no. You mentioned there is no fly from Columbia to me.

 

Host  1:06:00

Go to a can transfer some yeah

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:06:01

yeah but this visa things you know Colombian passport is not so easy passport also sometimes countries and also is quite expensive so they will love it

 

Host  1:06:14

but they practiced any meditation before

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:06:17

no no I feel also in somehow they they are more close to Catholicism than before. When I went as a nun my mom mentioned Oh, you came here to convert me? No, I don't have any intention of conversion. I am also no convert to anything. I'm just

 

Host  1:06:41

a summary fine. Yeah,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:06:42

yeah, yeah, yeah, yes is a normal amount more human being than before maybe. Another friend told me that she was afraid to his boy, her boyfriend was practicing and might know my friend was the most Find Yogi or meditator from my CD, and she was worried about her son to convert. And I say no, they don't he maybe he can convert in a better human being. Don't worry, she will just be your son, but maybe he will find a way to, to explore more his qualities and just to know better to live better, so don't worry. So yeah.

 

Host  1:07:29

So you've been at power continuously as a nun? Yeah. Time.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:07:32

Yes. Yes. With the break of my visit to Colombia this time.

 

Host  1:07:36

Yeah. What was it like being a Buddhist nun in Colombia?

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:07:43

I think there are not other nuns from my country. I met some in Tibetan tradition, I think two nuns, and it was fun for my friends. I think they were curious about what the non what what what is the life for the non what is what I do in the day and and a part of that some interest of course also in meditation why I change so much what he's making me change in this way for my family was a like a big I don't know. Chuck yeah because the katolik we have a tradition of nuns actually. One yeah totally cism but they don't shave their heads. Sure. And so the, the communities are organized a little bit different but actually I are also very similar and they are contemplative nuns actually. Also in Inka telesystem So, they were struggling with with the uniform that they call the robes and but they were actually also I am happy because I think they are also going through their own journey thanks to a new world open. Now they know about Myanmar, they are about Asia. They are taking out their minds from only Columbia. They are knowing they saw my parents when there is one Tibetan Rinpoche che in Bogota. I didn't know but this time I knew and I visit him with my parents. And they were very happy to see a monk. Then the second month and monk they met was my ex husband. And actually they they invite him to bucaramanga my city and they offer him like a foot. And they were very, like, you know, confusing to me because this is still is still for them. One your son in law Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. But also trying, trying to care trying to learn yeah yeah yeah, yeah they, he thought a little bit about meditation and they they talk like sharing like q&a you know like you're sitting together what you're doing why what is these what is meditation and it was nice also for my family so it's like growing together you know and not not being exclude it's not like going to the cave one day and I would you disconnect with everything no no late at night like that also I try and they are part of this is they are we all have our own journey and this is part of their, their journey and I think I am good so far so far. It will be okay.

 

Host  1:11:15

So you're looking to continue on and your practices and not at poke for the foreseeable future.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:11:20

Yeah, yeah. So, maybe maybe you know about about meditation. So, the, the meditation required like, a time to, to develop and it can be long time or short time, but anyway for example, when we choose the, the life of monk or a nun, we will be depending on a community. So, he said, he said, it takes time, actually and I am just exploring that I don't I don't know how how long it will take but sure is open to them

 

Host  1:12:06

yeah i mean you were going to Yogi you live to petita center your it bmu student all of those that sound like you You wrote those experiences are all the value that they provided and have a sense of gratitude and then something new happened so POW maybe maybe yes,

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:12:20

yes yes and actually like I am like for example, you mentioned the party it like it VMU after the diploma, I I so, I need to keep going with my studies. So empower cool so we have somehow like spaced reading and learning more and I also are Connect still connected with it with some teachers so if they have short classes I I have been there and also with other shadows here in Myanmar, you know how rich Yeah, is the party at the World yanmar and they they offer English classes. There are plenty of classes I also try to keep going with Bhikkhu Bodhi explanations and courses like and just just continue that not to not to abandon them that that part and yeah for now, like the most important thing for me is like keep learning about meditation and and after that get the part I think it will be like naturally as it happens now naturally show what what is next what is next. So, so far right now it has been just patient and try to understand that we can have some conditions, we can put conditions but we cannot control it. So wherever you happen will happen but of course we put the conditions to we put our mind to our purpose. So right now for me is continuing the meditation. Great.

 

Host  1:14:12

Last question. What's your favorite place you've meditated in Myanmar

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:14:16

in Myanmar? Oh wow. Okay. So there is a there is a place I really like it in that on in there is a there is a pagoda in the top on the of that mountain and going up the pagoda there is a like a small Buddha place like inside of a cave. It's not a huge cave. It's just a simple one. But I said I was there for a couple of weeks and it really really felt I felt connected with the place with the mountain with the With everything that was there, and so I need to same that place so far has been very good for, for my practice, but of course, like is more than a place is like what is happening in our practice in the moment. And that will make that place like especially well, I was hearing like when I was in panorama retreat. Wow. So I can say that meditation center is my favorite place, but it's just the conditions of the mind and the perception of the mind but in bulk also, have you been empowered? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. impure. Also very, very special place to be. Yeah, but so far, the stat on that mountain is very, very good. Yeah. Anything else you want to add? Well, I hope you can start maybe with the time also doing a Spanish podcast, because there isn't. There is some somehow, of course, nowadays there are more information and more projects about the Spanish speaking materials. And I think he's going okay, that's great. Yeah. But like this, for example, looking for Dhamma talks or my material, audio material in Spanish. Yeah. Not really. Yeah. Not really. So much as in English, you know?

 

Host  1:16:47

Yeah. Well, you're welcome to use the studio. interview someone at some point in Spanish. We can put it out there.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:16:52

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I hope for you that and now is fine. I don't know if you have more questions and Nice okay.

 

Host  1:17:00

Yeah, no, I think we're good. I know you have to you're you're you're leaving. Where's your next stop? No.

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:17:06

Tomorrow we are going to I am traveling with a friend. We are going back to Pune when Okay, yeah, yeah. So,

 

1:17:14

yeah, so thank you. Great. Well, safe travels. Okay time

 

Sayalay Khanticari  1:17:17

Thank you.

 

1:17:37

yada yada yada yada No, but

 

Host  1:17:43

I know for a lot of podcast listeners, as soon as the fundraising requests start up, you kind of just zone out or skip ahead until it's over. But I asked that if you're taking the time to listen to our full podcast that you also take the time to consider our schpeel Some may assume that producing a nice The minute episode wouldn't take much more time than the conversation itself. But there's so much more that goes into it. Several days in advance our content team reviews the biography and any works of the upcoming guest and discusses the best way to use our limited time together. Our logistics department coordinates transportation for the guests to the studio, and then after the interview, the raw audio file is sent to our sound engineer. 190 minute episode can take him up to two days of solid work, which is carefully coordinated with our content team to ensure smooth listening. More work is then done recording the introduction of the guests and other segments, particularly the post interview reflection, and then mixing them back together to upload to the hosting site delivering the podcast that our listeners eventually hear. We hope each one provides you a solid hour plus of inspirational and informative Dhamma content. And if so, we also hope that you can consider supporting our mission and if you would like to do so we welcome your contribution You may give via patreon@www.patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar one word as well as via paypal@www.paypal.me. slash Insight Myanmar one word. That's AI n si g GHTMYN Mar. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation, please feel free to get in touch with us. You may want to reflect a little more deeply on some of the themes explored in the last discussion. Following every interview, my friend Zach Hassler, and I take some time to process the depth of what was said. Zach has been to me and more on numerous occasions and spent three years here as a forest monk. And so we hope that our talk can add depth and context to the interview. He's now living in rural Thailand and I'll just make a quick call on Skype to connect with them now. Hey Zack great talking with you. We haven't checked in in a while the world sure has changed since our last time of talking to each other.

 

Zach  1:20:09

Yeah, right it's not so often that in the interim that you have like a big world event happen in the interim.

 

Host  1:20:18

Yeah, I mean, as I'm sure everyone knows, and every media report has picked up on the corona virus has really affected all walks of life and it's affected both of us as well. I'm I was recording in Yangon, you're still in Thailand, but I'm now in Colorado. So we're having to coordinate very different time zones. And also a little bit of a technical issue going on that is different from where I was in Yangon. I'm now I've outfitted a closet where I'm staying in Colorado to be my makeshift recording studio for checking in with you and making sure that our listeners get good sound for this.

 

Zach  1:20:57

Right and I got a new mic, so I should sound better than I think it sounded kinda like I was in a closet before without soundproofing. So it should be an improvement, I hope.

 

Host  1:21:07

Right, right. So the good technical sound all the way around. And and then of course, you know, we've been talking offline about looking at doing some special coronavirus episodes in Myanmar to explore information about what's going on there, how it's affecting meditators and monks and monasteries, meditation centers, teachers, also hearing some words of wisdom from practitioners and how the what what a meditator can do during a pandemic, some advice and guidance along that so we're still working those details out and we have some information on the blog and website. So definitely encourage listeners who are interested to check in and see what's coming down the pipeline soon.

 

Zach  1:21:51

Right. I think that'd be helpful. A lot of people with time on their hands and yeah, so you know, it's a way to it's a way to get give something to people you know, and a time of that might be very useful. So very happy to engage in that process.

 

Host  1:22:08

Yeah, right. It definitely was something that no one was expecting. But, you know, hey things, things change and things happen that are unexpected. And that's that's also what we learn about in the practice that happens inside it happens outside and this is this is something new that we're all dealing with outside that also has internal ramifications. So so we'll see how that goes. But for the issue at hand, let's check in about this interview we just heard with c'est la kachari. quite an interesting one. Yeah, that's

 

Zach  1:22:34

right. And before we get into that, I just want to say I hope everyone's well and healthy and stays that way. But yeah, let's, let's get into it.

 

Host  1:22:41

Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely a good message to get in there. So going back to her interview, you know, just just kicking it off. I I like the role was one of the things that just struck me in hearing it and thinking about it again, was you have the role of this this meditator from our family meditator actually, he's a waiter, from Argentina that she meets in Peru and he plays this kind of surprising role and kickstarting her journey. She met him at this conference, he was a waiter kind of funding his travel, his backpacking around South America came back, told her boyfriend about it. And they both were like, hey, let's get out of Bogota, let's, let's do that for ourselves. And basically, they never came back from that experience. And the thing that was really interesting about that, to me was the sense of openness to the moment and we never know who we're going to meet, that's going to be so important, where we're going to meet them what they're going to say that's going to change our life. We don't know wisdom or wisdom is going to come from who's going to say maybe one word or one piece of advice that is going to set us on this life changing journey. And if you just put yourself out there and you're just open to being able to hear the right thing at the right time, be open to hear it and then act on it. It really can't can't have that life transforming effect. And it was really cool to hear the surprising way of what set her on this incredible On my journey in the form of an Argentinean waiter at a news conference, at a conference in Peru.

 

Zach  1:24:06

Yeah, that's right. You know, it's just, it's a matter of conditions, right? And when I reflect on that, it's like, I don't know how many people I've met like that, but the internal conditions weren't ready to hear it and be kind of enthusiastic about it. And, you know, so it's like, the internet, like, you know, like, she was ready to hear that. And if that time when I heard what I needed to hear from, from whoever inspired me to take off and go on my journey, you know, that maybe people been saying that all my life and I wasn't ready for it. But so it's a timing thing sometimes. But yeah, it's always fascinating that there seems to be a lot of people we've noticed in our podcasts can point to it's it was this book, or was this person, you know, and they can often point to like a an event or a person or some kind of influence that got their journey started.

 

Host  1:24:53

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Absolutely. That's a really good point that sometimes you might be hearing something consistently throughout your life, but it just takes A certain moment where it finally sinks in. And, you know, it was interesting as well to hear about the stages of development that she went through. On her journey that she so many different layers really indicates her ability and her responsiveness and being able to move from different arenas and embrace the possibilities of the present moment. I just took some notes on some of those transformations, you know, you have Catholicism to perhaps agnosticism to an interest in the passionate meditation to being a Buddhist nun. You have going from the Colombian countryside to the cosmopolitan city of Bogota, to backpacking in South America to Asia to settling again in a Burmese monastery. If you look at it on the practice scale, you're going from having no meditative practice to doing the passion of courses of sn Goenka. pente to Rama, it bmu the university and then to paok and finally to none hood in general. And what was really incredible about all these layers and journeys is it happened to such a short time, like if you look at her age and her age now and the age when when this all got kicked off, it was like all these lifetimes and all these different moments happening in such a condensed period, such a full period and so that was um that was really cool.

 

Zach  1:26:17

Right I think it speaks to a certain characteristic of of sila she she has this openness and courage and this kind of sense of adventure. It's a little bit of risk taking but not all those transitions were easy some she was very enthusiastic about but like the transition from Goenka to mahasi style meditation was, you know, there was a sticking point there and she said she felt guilty she so then the courage to just move through that anyways and kind of trust her, her guts, so to speak, and, and I think that's a really important thing in this the spectrum of the Dhamma life. You know, you've, you've listed all these spectrums that have transition, and the willingness, openness, like I said, encouraged to move. But looking at practice, I think it's really important in Tama to try different techniques and different environments. And not always, you know, it's not like that's a that's a time and place thing as well. Right. So, to kind of follow inspiration to, because what we're inspired by what we're able to investigate, that's what keeps, for me, at least and for a lot of people I've talked to and seem to be for her to, which is able to have the which is free to follow her interest in Dharma, then it stays alive then and and her her whole, her whole story about Dhamma so far, and you know, it's still continuing, but it's very, it's very alive, you know, and within the Buddha Dhamma there are many techniques and prayers There's no like one size fits all technique, you know, and different people need different techniques as we can see from the scriptures. In the suit, as you know, the Buddha gave different approaches, I find the diamond to be quite fractal, you know, in one sense you can enter from lots of different points and then and then there's certain learnings, so that we can understand. Yeah, we and then even within our own practice, over a span of our lives, that you know, different techniques and teachers may suit us better at different times, you know, so, having that freedom to, to discern for yourself, of course, taking in like she did in many points in your life, taking in the advice of others, you know, even or even in my case, it's not just one teaching one technique. I actually have like three, three different practices I'm incorporating, they I think they all fit together quite well. But, you know, so there's just a lot of variety and Silopi dossiers. Another example you know, she used, she said she used metta practice sometimes white light limiters sometimes and general awareness. Right. So she had a whole quiver of practices that she uses according to the conditions that arise both internally and externally. So I think that that's a nice environment for the development of wisdom for continued enthusiasm on the path. You know, and she mentioned the balance of power Yachty as well. So, you know, in PRC party Action Party, it actually led to some ridiculous insights, which I think is you know, including that into the mix as well. So, back to say LA County Chari her that willingness and courage I think and the the feeling of freedom to move move about within the Dhamma sphere freely as yet. Time Time again, it just seems so fruitful.

 

Host  1:29:58

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we should just mention for listeners c'est la Pia dossey was the third episode I believe of this podcast. So definitely encourage those who haven't listened to that to go back and check her out. That was another great, great interview and hearing you talk about, say like canta Chari, also c'est la pedasi. What strikes me is that you're describing the current practices of two contemporary meditators who are living and practicing right now. And so through them, we get a prism for what is possible in Myanmar, what the environment is like in Myanmar. I think this is why a lot of people perhaps, listen to this a lot of meditators from home, enjoy it is that they are able to hear remotely what other people are doing and practicing in a place that they maybe haven't banned, or they're thinking of their own experience and coming here and what's possible for them. You know, I really appreciate getting to talk to these people for the obvious reasons, just because it's so inspiring. It's so great to bring in their reality into the greater world to bring their voice so that more people can hear it. But as I was hearing you talk, another thing that came to mind was that the practitioners like c'est la kachari, c'est la pedasi. Some of the others that we've had. These are really the kind of people that you meet in Burma when you come as a meditator. These are the kind of stories that you would hear if you were so lucky to come into contact with some of the many foreign and and Burmese meditators among some nuns that are here. And yet, these are also voices and stories that do rarely get out into the world. And it made me reflect on one of the reasons why I was really excited to do this podcast was that the stories that I think we hear back in the west of practitioners from the west who've come to Burma, it seems to be dominated by people that were maybe a little higher up on the food chain, little little more of a name to themselves, that were in the country many years ago, and maybe they sent spent an extended time then and their experiences from that time are held as these reference points for how things are here. Even though When you're here today as a meditator, there's often often things feel very different from those stories. And so it's really great talking to these people that represent a live Dhamma life as it is manifesting in contemporary times. And to be able to learn and hear how their life wisdom and stories are informing this newer generation of practitioners that are coming, and then building on their shoulders, hearing what they're doing, what's possible for them the decisions they made, and that's then informing a new generation of people to come and make their own choices. So so so that part was, was really cool to hear in and say like, kachari, of course, other past podcast guests as well.

 

Zach  1:32:39

Right. I can't remember exactly how she phrased it, but like, you know, Burma is like this. It's like a buffet of opportunity and Dhamma growth right. I think a, you know, she came she came through Goenka, you know, and, and going, going to organization throughout the world does provide a lot of People with a gateway into Dhamma. And you know, I remember calling a by Gary monks looking at the profiles of the monks that were currently a by a girI This was several years ago, but you know, several of them, about half of them had started and going and ended up being monks. But the unique thing about about Myanmar is it's a, it's this buffet, right? It's not just a buffet of techniques, you know, it's more than that. It's it's, there's an opportunity for lay or monastic, which is another spectrum, there's an opportunity for party and party party. And there's different types of actual techniques, and then all kinds of other things that are off the radar, just chance meetings of inspiration. It's just, it's just all around you. And it's not in every single place all the time. But there's so much there for there's someone to have an unplanned journey to they just kind of bumps into things along the way that that are inspiring, you know. So this is a unique thing. You know, there's a Other places, perhaps like Thailand or Sri Lanka, that would offer something similar, but you know, as our listeners are spread throughout the world, that's not necessarily that that richness that have all these spectrums isn't necessarily available everywhere. So this is like one reason someone might might come to a place like Myanmar.

 

Host  1:34:18

Right, right, exactly. And this, this is also why these, you know, you had mentioned that when you're here, there's this rich diversity of stories and places and experiences that you're able to have. However, you know, even sometimes when you're here, it takes certain kind of serendipity and meeting the right person or going to the right place, and even then having the you know, contextual and cultural and linguistic clues to be able to make sense of what that experience is. And so that's another real gift and pleasure of what this podcast project is for us, is in all of our years of experience there and all of our contacts in our network, you can say, to bring in these special voices who sometimes are living in you know, a very high degree of private message. Native experience and seclusion and are really generously donating their time to tell these stories that that listeners are getting access to his goal just arriving right in their earbuds that you know, even if you were in the country would would take quite a bit of time to access. So it's it's really fun and rewarding to be able to, to bring those stories to meditators right now.

 

Zach  1:35:22

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, you can come for all kinds of different reasons and all different kinds of stages in, in practice, but one of the important things and I think we've seen this is because of the spectrum that's available, it invites, invite some people in certain stages of their journey like what I call like coming out of the childhood stage and into the kind of the adolescent stage where, you know, if you want to come out of the adolescent stage, but but you only have one thing available to you, it's hard, you know, but when you when you're in the environment of Miyama and you have all these options, then you know, you can You can start to navigate your own way, in a way, you know, through serendipity or just through kind of gut feeling and trying different things through, you know, you're likely to come into more contact with people that have done different things. And then you have to decide that there's almost so much available you have to decide like what feels what feels right. Does it feel right to go deeper into the tradition I've been in or the or the tradition that I'm currently investigating, or to move into something else, you know, or to switch to parity or to try taking robes for a while like, then in that decision making you kind of make it your own. And I think this is important for me, I see that making the journey are our own is such an important thing. And she did this she she didn't know that's what she was doing. Si p das. He also didn't know she thought she was going to something that was conducive to her going to practice and it didn't turn out that But what it did turn out to be is like hugely influential that kind of broadened and deepened her her whole dama path. And and this is the same thing to say LA County Chari. Same thing. You know, she she takes these risks and this has these great rewards and, and yeah, it's it's inspiring every every one, you know not all our podcasts are about people's personal journeys, but the ones are that are this unfolding that happens because of the variety and richness of possibilities of Dhamma in Myanmar is, yeah, it's inspiring.

 

Host  1:37:37

Yeah. And we have to say, as well that the you know, the real superstar in the background here that's consistent across the different episodes is Burma, you know, Burma is the grounds that are making all this possible. Of course, as you said, we're telling these stories of spiritual personal development really, really kind of mini hero's journey and each podcast of those people who do share their Life in background not every guest does as he said, but they are the hero's journey that we're covering and exploring. And you know, great thing about a hero's journey is the hero in the journey itself can be very, very different from anything that you could ever take yourself. But there's certain kind of parallels that do relate to your life and your decisions. And one of the consistencies that we do find in all these hero's journeys, of course, because of the nature of our podcasts is the role that Myanmar is playing in their, in their, their spiritual decision making. And that really gets into what you said just a moment ago, that they were on pedasi and kachari. others as well, we're on this this journey of kind of discovering how they wanted to practice who they wanted to practice with what best suited them what the monastic life was made up of the meditators life was made of and how much of this how much of that and that sort of exploration and playfulness is very well suited to a place like Myanmar foreigners are just treated, you know, like just embraced with open eyes. to come in and have that dynamic experience, and the opportunities if you seek them are so plentiful, and that is something that is extremely unusual in the world is pretty much impossible. I'd venture to say to that extent in much of the non Buddhist world and even in other Buddhist countries, that level of richness would probably be hard to come by and so this is the the context that these hero's journeys are playing out in.

 

Zach  1:39:27

Right and the context. Yeah, that's exactly what I was I was referring to and then and then just the outcome is so you're right, it doesn't matter. It's not like following someone else's recipe here. I mean, you could but it's like as they unfold for different people could be different traditions it could be and it's not about like, you must take robes or you must do this you must study this percentage of partiality. You know, it's like, it's different for everyone. But that's all available here. And the best part is the outcome. Like, you can hear it in, in in them, that the enthusiasm, the inspiration, the insights that just, you know, they're not trying to teach anything, but they just say something. There's so much wisdom in it, and they're just expressing their experience, and then the result of it, and you can, I can feel it when I hear it, and it's inspiring. So it inspires me to keep going and investigating on my path,

 

Host  1:40:27

huh? Yeah, absolutely. And that's, that's the goal, of course that we have for, you know, for listeners as they're meditators is they're tagging along is to kind of follow these journeys and the ups and downs of the speaker, and then also see the set of choices that they're making and that hopefully have that be somewhat inspiring for you know, everyone's own personal hero's journey as they go on as they're listening.

 

Zach  1:40:51

Absolutely.

 

Host  1:40:52

Yeah. And kind of going back to that point of Burma being the superstar you know, Burma being the background of spiritual possibilities. Another thing I want to throw into that mix is that importantly, it's the teachings of glenkinchie. That is the seed that brings you here. And to just take a moment to recognize and reflect that no other tradition or Dhamma education option could have reached your life in South America except for those passionate courses have Glinka and it's funny, you talk about connecting other podcasts, other guests that we've had. And of course, you know, we can't we have to think of Daniel who, Daniel Mayer, who was a senior teacher in the Goenka tradition, and then led retreats all over South America. And one of the comments we made I can't remember if I made it to him or to you. But it was on that podcast was the sense that he was that that this tradition was literally bringing the passion of meditation and Dharma and the teachings of the Buddha to villages throughout South America that in all of human history, had never received those before. That was pretty awe inspiring just to think of, of this spread of these teachings of liberation through going energy system and organization happen reaching some of these far corners that literally in the sweep of human history have never been reached. She is one of the beneficiaries. We heard about one of the people bringing it and now we hear about one of the beneficiaries who's receiving it. So she is getting the seeds from this tradition. And then as we talked about, somewhat humorously on the podcast, of course, there's no direct flights from Colombia to Burma, but he or she ended up anyway. And as she and there's not so many Colombians in, in Myanmar, probably not so many South Americans, as well. But once she gets here, she really embraces the opportunity of what Burma has to offer. She lives at the penita Center for 11 months. She has a free education, it bmu for several years, she tries out ordination. And she's now living this in this vibrant and robust Dhamma community combined with these Burmese lay supporters all over the country that are taking care of her needs for what she needs for her practice and her spiritual growth. And so it's just interesting seeing that relationship you know, getting these valuable seeds of dama that, that she was able to get at the right time at the right place, that any time before her couldn't have arrived in that way. And then those seeds bringing her here, which is quite a remarkable story, and then really making the most of the opportunities that exists in a country like this. And the buffet table, as you mentioned.

 

Zach  1:43:23

Yeah, the metaphor that came in my mind is is the seeds landed, which come to Burma, they land in this really fertile soil, so much of it, like, just like plants actually grow in the tropics, you know, especially during the rainy season, they just burst to life, you know, and so her her Dhamma practice really just seemed to like really burst into this rich, colorful tapestry of experience.

 

Host  1:43:49

Right, right, exactly. And then if you also kind of follow that relationship, maybe the causal relationship or what came before and what came after a little more closely. It's interesting. It's interesting just to look at monasticism, you know monasticism is not really known in the West that much as the Buddhist teachings came to the west, they This is far beyond the points we can make here. This has been covered in so many books and scholars that have looked at the way these teachings have been received in western countries that didn't have a monastic order, and would be too far reach to create one or try to understand one so they were modified, adjusted for a lay audience. This is certainly what happened. What happens in the banking system, and so as they're taking these passionate courses, they're on a path of practicing in a committed relationship, which is really what the tradition encourages, but they start to have these. These as they get into me and more and they see what's possible. They do start to to see the opportunities of ordination and I just kind of laughed at this point. Because I was reminded of a mutual friend of ours who is a is a lifelong monkeys, also a former growing meditator from Europe. And he's often quoted the story of a hearing of a particular teacher say that when meditators had this renunciation idea and push and desire, that it was a renunciation Sankara, and that this was something you needed to come out of. And, and this is not so unusual. I mean, this is when you're when you're practicing within a tradition and in a country where there is there's not this practice or understanding of real total complete renunciation into an ordained life. When these desires come, they are something to observe and to let go of and to stay in on that path of lay practice in a committed relationship. But then, once they came to this buffet table, and they saw the option, the dish of ordination or the dishes of ordination, that's those were conditions. They met at that time.

 

Zach  1:46:03

Well, there's two sides to it. There's the one you're talking about, which I'd like to say something about, but the other side is like, first it was as a lay person.  What is it like to be around people that, as dedicated as we might think some people are in the Goenka organization with like volunteering to teach or run a center or that, there's a whole other level where someone's like, it's 100%. And the reason I bring that up is because that's exactly what she said, when she met who U Pandita, that here's this monk-- first it was just monks she met, and just saw how they're operating at a meditation course or international meditation center, that they're just, it's 100%! That's all they do. And then she has a teacher that's a monastic, and just how inspiring that was and how much trust she had in that and of the depth and breadth of this person's experience. That played a role in her Dhamma life, just having monks and nuns around her that were totally dedicated! And then of course, her own journey as well. Like, I do think that it makes me sad to hear people discourage people from the monastic life. It's not for everyone, and it's not perfect, there's problems. At the same time, like I wouldn't trade my three years as a monk for anything! Like I was just thinking about this the other day and talking with friends: I miss it sometimes. And as much as I try to dedicate, I have an intention to be mindful all the time and still practice all the time. That environment, there's something very special about it. There's a reason that the Buddha set it up. It's very clear to me from my experience, when you actually graze in that field, so to speak, when you when you wander and graze in that field. It's so rich, just those conditions are very special. And if you're called to them temporarily or for longer, I couldn't recommend it more, you know? And we hear in these podcasts in these stories of monastics, and lay people too also have great stories to tell, but it's not an either or kind of thing, or this is the pinnacle, but it's something available that I think is extremely special. And I like to play that up, you know, for anyone that's interested, that this is available, and it's something very rich.

 

Host  1:48:41

Yeah, sure. And following their story, it was um, it was just so fascinating that she started to describe the steps that were leading to their their, you know, inverse proportional, greater commitment to Dhamma gradual dissolution of the marriage, that these these were taking place. They were still exploring the dominant committed relationship for much of their spiritual journey, even when they were putting on the robes initially, they were temporary ordinations. But somehow, over time they saw that life was, this was a real possibility of how life could be lived. You know ordaining is a big decision for anyone. Anyone has to give up a lot, but to have a husband and wife simultaneously, making this decision prioritizing their commitment to oneself or to Dhamma in different different ways as they move on. It's something that doesn't happen overnight. It's something that gradually one realizes that the partner is not ever again going to be prioritized over the practice and really kind of realizing that simultaneously. And one starts to ask, what is it that I'm really prioritizing? And the interesting thing about that is that for, you know, this is something that I think people in different walks of life, I think many people think, you know, what, what are my life priorities and one of my overarching goals You know what, what are the driving forces and the things I want to accomplish but with a meditator This is not a question of like an overarching great goal. This is a moment to moment significance because you're watching the mind moment to moment. You're watching things arise, you're watching them pass away. And so you're having to give a momentary awareness one moment after the next of what you really are prioritizing and and eventually as we heard in her story that what they prioritize simultaneously together became the practice over the the lay worldly commitment of marriage and, and that's what followed and I really appreciated her honesty and openness and sharing, you know, it was it was it was so vulnerable. She said at one point or not, this is not a direct quote, something like you know, I actually found this was really a Theravada love story, but I couldn't quite see it at the time. And, and I could see another kind of version of this story being told In a way that kind of romanticizes it that that romanticizes the Dhamma and the the the reclusive practice and, you know, just the all out commitment to the inner purification. And that other version of the story that's been romanticized, would, would be less honest, it would be something that is, is just kind of painting this, this, this picture, this inspiring picture, but it's not really on the ground of the real human emotions and, and feelings and, you know, talking to her, you do sense the the pain and the loss and the honesty of expressing that even as she stands by her decision, and I think that was that was wonderful of her for her to be able to be able to I felt very privileged in the moment that interview that she was going there and allowing us to hear that and I think it was very important for meditators to also hear that just that human element at play in what is a very You know, a very courageous decision, but we're still hearing those small human feelings and emotions that you know, that remind us these are real person. These are real people and real things and that the ability to identify and humanize with the stories that we're hearing becomes all the more in depth.

 

Zach  1:52:19

Right. That was, yeah, that was a special sharing. I really appreciate it as well. It's, it reminds me of like, what you're talking about as these momentary realizations. Yeah, this, you know, this is this is what I prioritize, but there's a consistency to those moments that kept adding up to like, yeah, let's renounce. So we look at as like a scale, you know, yeah, the scales consistently are tipping towards ordaining and dissolving the marriage. That doesn't mean the scales like all the weights on one side, and there's nothing on the other side, you know, it's it's favoring, it's favoring that decision, but there's still stuff on the other side and you No, you know, you know, even though she knew what she wanted to do is still Yeah, it is it is painful to let go of, of what's on the other side sometimes.

 

Host  1:53:09

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I am related to this, I have to give a little bit of background since I'm coming from, from Burma back to being in Colorado now and taking advantage of the resources that we have in this country. One of the first things I did when I was back was go to the library and check out half a dozen books on podcasting, interviewing, just to try to get this whole shindig we're doing, make sure it's the top quality it can be. And one of the things I read from there that I picked up was in interviewing the value of a mental scene or imagery being painted that especially in podcasting, or oral interviews, where all you have to hang on is the person's words. So you really want to have a scene a room described where every aspect of that interaction or environment is something that you can you can feel in here. To no credit of my own, there was a moment that happened like this on the podcast, I just want to want to remind our listeners and remind myself and appreciate just the vividness of this. So there's this part where she describes, you know, firstly, she describes as mental acceptance to dissolve the marriage and the legal process of doing so. And she told the story of how it overlapped when she and her now monk ex husband were in the country at the same time, and they hadn't planned it, but she kind of had to even remember Oh, yeah, that's right. He was here and I was hearing Oh, yeah, he did. He was invited to my home and she describes her home as being you know, it's in the countryside. It's a very Catholic upbringing. She has this this mother in law, or she or her mother, who's her, her now monk husband's former mother in law, who is trying to understand all of this all the distillation of the dissolution of the marriage, the the renunciation, the decision to follow a spiritual path that is very different from her. own upbringing, the to say nothing of the rules of the monks and nuns and how you serve them. And, you know, and also beyond this, I think she mentioned accepting there's not gonna be any grandchildren coming from this once union that maybe she had hoped for. And then in the midst of all this, there is her now monk, former son in law, sitting down who has to be served in a certain way at a certain time in their home, and just the, the imagery of the way that she was describing it really, really puts you there at least put me there in all of these worlds coming together.

 

Zach  1:55:35

Right, well, what do I say to that? I don't have I really have much more to say other than like, reminds me of my responses. Like, Oh, well, that's awesome. Like the chris farley interviews on Saturday live, where he, there's a cool story and he doesn't really go anywhere with it. He just says, hey, that's awesome.

 

Host  1:56:01

Yeah right and yeah the peak be to peek behind the curtain a little bit. That's an inner reference we've had in preparing for these talks. But sometimes we find that there's things that people say that we want to give context to we want to debate or analyze or share and experience and then there's some things that are said in this podcast that are so cool that are just awesome. That we we've called them we've we've called them Farley isms that we just we just want to say, Hey, remember the time when she said this, and this and this, and, yeah, that was awesome. We don't really have much more than that. So this is one of those moments maybe?

 

Zach  1:56:32

It was for me for sure. I mean, other than the, you know, the big perhaps in background for people about about monastic I don't know about the nuns because the nuns these days are on their on eight or 10 precepts. Some are on eight. In order to help out maybe we explain that a little bit just for interest. monasteries often need people to handle money and some silos just precepts so they don't have the touching money prohibition a lot of a silencer on 10 precepts. There are in the world, nuns these days it take the full it's over 300 rules before the monks it's 227 but there's a requirement to become a monk I don't think she probably didn't have to have this been in relationship to parents, you actually need your parents permission, you know, I was like 4040 something at the time and I still needed my my, my father was alive at the time and my my mother I needed their permission to become a mock so and it and just just it did it did kind of kick up those memories of of, of kind of saying goodbye to people too and, and that saying goodbye to a whole life you know, for her another step of marriage but I was still like, you know, my my gig was to go home for six months and work and come back and when I was home, I lived out of my pickup truck and I just had this incredible amount of freedom and a cool job that I really love to do and the outdoors and, and all these friends that I could just so freely go around and visit but, you know, I traded freedoms. You know a lot of people think that the monastic life is a loss of a lot of freedoms because we look at in terms of our own life, but when when you look at the life in and of itself, it's not as free as we think sometimes because all the things we have that we have to do we have to work we have to make money, you know, and the Buddha kind of created this support system where the monks could be free of family obligations and financial obligations and just live so simply with just a bowl and robes and a razor and you know, just your flip flops and just a couple little things you know that you could all kind of carry and walk around with. And that's a freedom. Freedom from money is incredible freedom going back to who siren is she insurnace podcast You know that the monks that really follow that rule of not holding and making monetary decisions is a freedom. It there's nothing like it, you know, I hope everyone gets it some way somehow has a chance to be able to live without the burden of money.

 

Host  1:59:22

Right. Yeah. Well said Well said. So anything else to wrap up with hers?

 

Zach  1:59:28

I don't think so. I just another really inspiring personal story of I just really liked, you know, I mean, I like all of them. I like these ones where the person's really just engaged in their own decision making and serendipity and self discernment, and just how much wisdom and inspiration and enthusiasm comes out of it. So for me, personally, that's really effective.

 

Host  1:59:53

Yeah, you know, and I think that from from the guest side, they often come to these interviews not really knowing what to expect. These are not For the most part, these are not public savvy speakers that are used to presenting their message to the world, many of them have never done anything like this in their life and so they don't really know what to expect. Some of them I have my own personal relationship with them might vary from from from only having met them a little bit. So they've been very long friends for a period of time. But even However, our relation is they don't really know what's going to happen in that interview that some of the mystery of it and just your remark in reflecting on being on the other side and hear what they have to say reminded me of what one guest said a month ago or so he had quite a quite an intense emotional interview really revealing his his whole Dhamma journey remembering things he hadn't thought of in many years. And one point when the mic went off at one point, he just kind of shook his head and said, this is really like a Dhamma therapy. See you got on here. So I know people, people bring what they and that's great. You know, it's great for To bring that level of openness and vulnerability, and, you know, I think that that listeners and meditators can only benefit from hearing such unusual and remarkable people with these stories share them so openly and freely in this kind of forum. So

 

Zach  2:01:15

it's like a dama. Barber Shop. Yep. There you go telling their stories.

 

Host  2:01:23

Yeah, yeah. Right. So, so yeah, so I think we're good there. We have another have some some coming down the pipeline. We, we we should give another technical note that we're obviously I'm not in Burma right now, all of the interviews were recorded there. But we, before we before I left, Yangon, unexpectedly with the virus, we did have a number of interviews, sit down interviews that were recorded. So we have at least I don't know 1516 sessions of interviews already recorded already in the bank that we're just looking to produce and to put out there and we'll be looking at doing some Some remote interviews now that we're all practicing social distancing. And also some of these these special coronavirus interviews that will give some some, some some good thought for meditators out there and also share what's going on in, in Myanmar at the monasteries, as we talked about at the start of the episode. And in general, we just hope that you know, people will be listening to this in all different ways and all different places, some might be listening to it a year from now, but for those that are listening to it in current times, we know that financially in terms of the fear in the mind in terms of the economics and health, that this is a hard time for a lot of people. So we hope that these two hours or whatever it was provided some kind of relief and interest and inspiration for those listening at this time.

 

Zach  2:02:49

Right. We're ready to roll with the changes for sure. So and we're hope we provide something helpful and useful to people. So again, I hope everyone out there is as well and stays healthy. And, and keeps mindful and relax as best as possible. And not only being the best space, we're in that the Dhamma helps us through our practice can help a lot of people around us as well to stay calm and relaxed and, and make good decisions and help each other you know, we could we could freak out and and fight against each other for resources and things like this or we can really, you know, be relaxed and just try to try to be kind to ourselves and to everyone else and hopefully everyone stays healthy.

 

Host  2:03:35

Yeah, well said. Well said and best wishes to everyone out there and we'll be back in another week and a half with another episode.

 

Zach  2:03:43

All right, great. Okay,

 

Host  2:03:44

great. Great to check in with Zach and take care. Stay safe in Thailand.

 

Zach  2:03:49

Thanks. We'll do I'm worried more about elephants at night. virus at the moment, but right Yeah, right. I appreciate that. Like they're in saliva.

 

Host  2:04:00

Yeah baby elephants so so the listener will have to go back and and hear the previous episodes for your encounter with baby elephants and flower.

 

Zach  2:04:12

Flower snorting teenage elephants. Right? Right. It came back actually that same that same adolescent game back a few nights ago. Ah, gosh. Although I didn't have quite the same encounter, staring right into its eyes from 30 feet away. But nonetheless, yeah, came back and went straight to the kitchen I think. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Anyways, yeah, okay, we'll see ya.

 

Host  2:04:39

Okay, okay. Take care. Take care. Bye. We would also like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible, especially our two sound engineers Martin combs and Thorne Bay, along with Zack Hessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey. helps with editing issues. That Campbell does our social media templates, and drag Oh spend data and Andre Francoise make our sketches. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us bringing the guests who have made up the show thus far, as well as the guests themselves for agreeing to come and share. Finally, we are immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible.

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