Transcript: Episode 4: Alan Clements

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Alan Clements, which appeared on February 17, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

Host: I'm really grateful that Alan Clemente made time for our talk between meditation retreats, projects, video talks, planning pilgrimages, and so on activism. Allah is not a guy with the luxury of too much free time on his hands. Throw into the mix the jumbled mess of Yangon traffic that you're now required to wade through to get anywhere these days. And showing up is not just an act of compassion, but also equanimity on his part, get despite the effort to get here. And although we'd never met before, from the moment Alan sat down, spread out his hands and said, okay, ask me anything. The stories and details flowed out through him effortlessly and with a sparkling clarity. pausing to reflect on the depth of the particular question at hand, he would answer by choosing his words carefully and ultimately painting a multi layered portrait and describing the past era of his early Dhamma practice. When he was a young and eager foreigner trying to squeeze past the rigid Burmese immigration system of that time, while also trying to squeeze in all the wisdom he could from his revered teachers say about who Pandita the depth of reverence, gratitude and love He maintains towards seda, who passed away just a few years ago at the age of 95, ripples through his voice as he recounts those early days studying at his feet somehow, but not always avoiding the draconian seven day visa restriction placed on all foreigners during those years. Alan is one of what must be only a very small handful of dedicated meditators who persevered through those extremely difficult conditions to remain on the path in the golden land. In other words, there are not too many other people who can share what he does in this interview. After we finished, I think Allen found the talk as riveting as I did, because he offered the comeback, yes, through that same traffic to cover yet more ground imploring me that no topic should be off limits next time. Hint hint, a little teaser perhaps for part two. More seriously. He was obviously gratified to have found a space to discuss these formative years, adding that he had rarely ever found such a form to do so. And yet the gratitude was all on my side as hearing the insider's view directly from such a dedicated practitioner gave me so much more insight into an earlier and much more challenging period of Dhamma practice in Myanmar. For the foreign Yogi particularly, I hope that all you listening can reflect on how good you have it today. And overall, Elon must have found the conversation valuable as well. Because shortly after the interview, Alan contacted me to ask permission to include the talk in his upcoming four volume work Burma's voices of freedom permission that we immediately granted and it's an honor to be contributing in this way to his work with Alan, the listener is treated to a meditator who is skilled at understanding both east and west, and whose evocative language is able to bring home with stunning clarity and detail a time long gone. his gratitude towards the Burmese underscores his four decades plus relationship with the country and its people. And although he interacted with some of the leaders, not only of the Buddhist Sangha, but also of the democracy movement, he is careful never to put his own story above theirs. Indeed, his own Dhamma practice occurred simultaneous to these much larger political movements taking place. And Alan was caught up in DC as well, as you will hear. With that, let's dive into the talk we had. This is a good one, and I'm very pleased to be bringing it your way.

Alan Clements 06:05

Joe, nice to meet you.

Host 06:06

Nice to meet you. Thanks for coming out here.

Alan Clements 06:08

Very happy to be here. Yeah. Really appreciate taking the time. Yep. Feel free to ask anything.

Host 06:13

Yeah. So. So you're in Yangon. Now? How often do you usually get the young gone to Myanmar?

Alan Clements 06:19

I have been coming to Myanmar, Burma every year since 2012. That was when President chained sane unbanned me after 17 years from not being allowed to be here. And since 2012, I've been coming back between once and twice, maybe two to five months a year.

Host 06:52

Right? And what do you usually do with your time here?

Alan Clements 06:55

What I usually do is meet the people. I'm really fond of meeting the people of this country, the diverse people of this country from the impoverished in Clank. They are to people in different provinces, states divisions, monastics, many mosques, many churches just trying to meet the diversity of people in this country. More recently, the last five years, we've organised an annual retreat at the mahasi southen agda. in Yangon, primarily for English speaking, Yogi's, which doesn't mean Burmese don't attend. And so this is the fifth year that we've had that. And that's the principal reason. That's one of the principal reasons why I come back. I'll leave it at that.

Host 07:54

Right. So I can imagine you first came to Myanmar in 1977 1977. Okay. 70. So I imagine you've seen some immense changes through every stage of your visit here, and especially today,

Alan Clements 08:09

yes, the changes, sadly, and profoundly, are well documented. I mean, I was young and naive. When I came here. I had practiced Buddhist meditation in America. I was at Naropa Institute when it opened in 74. I read a book by mahasi sayadaw in 1971. Which book was was his Vipassana instructions. And I was a yogi at the time I practice yoga and I was a vegetarian and I couldn't quite find a place in my life where there was a resonant teaching. But when I picked this book up in a bookstore in West Palm Beach, Florida, it instantly resonated. And the cleanliness of it, the clarity of it, the causality. If you do this, you'll discover that and it really addressed the core dilemma that I had, which was, at the time it was an unrecognized, I would say appreciation, if not an offer the Buddhist first noble truth of Duka and rare Do you encounter people that understand the first noble truth, and equally rare people who even use the word samsara as something to discover the machinations of how this infinite tapestry of cognitive and physical phenomena interrelate and mahasi sayadaw just simply addressed, the causality and the causes and the conditions primarily from my fundamental dilemma, which is why do I suffer? I knew the world suffered. I was very aware politically, I went to college I, part of the Vietnam era, the horrors of the world, not unlike today with Iraq and Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, the tragedies we see everywhere. mahasi say to address the Root issue, which is it's an issue of consciousness, greed, anger and delusion. And he said, If you do this, you'll discover how you can change that in yourself. And so that stuck in me very deeply. I met someone who knew of mahasi sayadaw, in Boulder, Colorado and 74. And I came here with my partner at the time to ordain with mahasi Sado in 1977, that was my intention. Wow, that's wonderful.

Host 10:28

So in the last five years or so, it's gotten increasingly easier for Dharma practitioners from foreign countries, to come and engage in all levels of practice here. You were one of the first Westerners to come to Burma and really throw yourself into the depths of monasticism at a time when it was both unusual to do as well as the logistical challenges of trying to stay here as a foreigner when many were looked upon with suspicion by the past government. So for those of us that have come later and know about these things, only in vague sense of stories, or maybe not even that, I think, myself for sure a lot of listeners as well a lot of meditators who are coming now would really be interested in the feel of what it was like when you came in 1977 what that reality was like and how that was different from where we find ourselves now.

Alan Clements 11:16

I'm actually that I went to shibo. Mas he said, I was home village second second in the schwebel area, and I asked him if I could ordain with him in Sekou. So he was in Sekou and not to the Yangon mahasi. Center at the time. No, he Well, he was based in the mahasi Center. But he was back to his home village doing some form of Dhamma teaching I see. And so since it was only a one week visa at the time, Ah, right. You had a split second to meet who you wanted to meet, right? So I went up there with a group of people friends and asked him if I could ordain, and he said, it's an honorable desire. But you we live under dictatorship. And I really didn't even know what that word meant particularly. I thought that America was pretty much under a dictatorship morphed around the world like, yeah. And he said, No, you can't stay for more than seven days. And but he recommended that I go to a monastery in Sri Lanka, which I did. I didn't ordain. But it stayed in my heart to cut to the chase. And since I couldn't live here, and there was no extension of visas at the time outside of diplomats that I heard about, that I invited him with a group of friends to America and 78. And he came and we organized, organized two separate retreats for him. At the end of those retreats. In New York, I met with him and asked if I could return with him to ordain as a monk in Burma to DMT a second time. And he said, you're more than welcome to ordain here as a summon era. And we will try our best when we return to Rangoon. to appeal with the government knew when to see whether or not there could be an extension. So I got here on day seven of my visa running out, I was ready to disrobe. This was 78. This was 79. And early in 79. And he the visa came, the extension came for three months. So make a long story short, I ended up staying extension after extensions. The landscape of life at that time, I knew very little of it. I mean, we came in on a prop plane. It's a quarter of a million people at the airport, along the roads, from the airport to the mahasi, center and behind. And you're just simply ordered, if you will, to abide by the rules of conduct by a monk, you're here to meditate, you don't know how long you can stay, it's not going to be long. And so here's a 20 hour day schedule, and begin to watch your mind. And that's what I did. I was odd that I was in the company of such a learned monk and a great practitioner as he was. And I just dropped into what felt to be a slow but very progressively upward moving, dynamic of feeling that I arrived I can a Deva loca, frankly in a realm of being so immersed in their Dhamma and their meditation that I felt like I'd come home literally. And the world fells away, I mean, I had no relationship to Burma outside of being in that monastery and being with mahasi Sado and say to start to incedo, whose job and my three teachers in the Yangon mahasi This was 79 and two that continued on until till I was thrown out of the country on several occasions, by for whatever reason, nay when in his authoritarian, xenophobia desired, you just got a notice at the monastery that you've been told to leave in 24 hours and so I did that three times.

Host 14:59

So it was a real sense Have a nice chat. When you're meditating, you're here today you could be gone tomorrow, you could be gone next hour, you don't know how long your courses just as you don't know how long your life is really a sense of the present moment is all you have.

Alan Clements 15:11

And that kind of was, you know, the word Sunday ago, this sense of spiritual urgency. I had that coupled with my own terror of America, I was completely disconnected from American culture, the war machine. And Krishnamurti said, it's no measure of success to be adjusted to a profoundly sick society, right? I had no interest in participating in the American machine.

Host 15:37

So you were in the Burma machine. Instead, I was

Alan Clements 15:39

I was in the Dhamma realm. And that's what the monastery represented. It was an oasis from right, the hell of ordinary.

Host 15:48

And so that stayed from 79 to 84. You were basically able to get

Alan Clements 15:52

out of the country, three times stone out, I'm able to come back in strangely through the serendipity of choice and tenacity and destiny, karma color, where you will, I did come back. And eventually on the fourth return, they came to the monastery yet again and said, it's time to live as a monk, you as a monk. And I just said, I can't keep doing this. And so I disrobed. And I return to America, a land that I loved, and pursued a Dhamma life pretty much like it was in the monastery, teaching retreats, and primarily doing them so that I could meditate. I wasn't so keen on teaching, but it was a great way to be around the emergence of a mindful Sangha, if you will.

Host 16:42

So when you were there from 79 to 84, Were there many other foreign monastics or practitioners you're interacting with? What was the regulation at the time for who was allowed to come? Who was allowed to stay? Or were you did you feel pretty isolated, not in terms of not having support or Dharma friends, but as being someone from a foreign country trying to adjust in practice in that way, because today, there's obviously a lot more here that are able to come,

Alan Clements 17:07

there were initially one American, who came, who stayed for about five months, and then moved on to Thailand. I remember like writing an arrow Graham to the Thai Buddhist society in Bangkok, and a few other places, alerting them that the country were open if you did this at the mahasi Center. And a few late people began to came become. And at the time, I was very close with the few friends at the insight meditation society. And I wrote letters to friends there and saying that they could come if they did it this way. I'd say at the peak of our time, though, there may have been seven to 12 people at one time, at one time, foreigners from European Canadian American countries. But most couldn't sustain the intensity of that schedule, and the demand of the weather the food. By and large, there were no meditation cushions allowed in the meditation

18:15

hall. What did you

Alan Clements 18:16

sit on them? You sat like the Burmese with a towel or a mat or just learn to sit cross legged on the wood. There were no mosquito nets. There were hundreds of dogs that held every minute, the bell went off. There was no purified water. And the food was mostly meat in oil.

18:40

And you were vegetarian before you came. I was a vegetarian until the day I ordained.

Alan Clements 18:46

And so most left I was in I think I was in the mahasi Center for about a year and a half without any foreigners there. But we did find that Malaysian Chinese came right, slowly. A few came from Nepal, one or two from Vietnam, but very few from America or Europe or Canada or Australia.

Host 19:10

So how do you think you were able to put up with so many of those difficulties you describe when others who came were unable to manage three reasons.

Alan Clements 19:19

For I just love the spirit of the Burmese people, the people of Burma not only the Burmese to be in a culture so driven by Donna generosity, unconditional giving was in itself all inspiring, an impoverished country terrorized by authoritarian totalitarianism. That they sought after giving as a vocation of their life, that dignity rode on that wave, that was very empowering for me to see. One. I won't go into the details, but I loved American culture. I don't I feel grateful that I feel very honored. To so to speak with killing. America is a killing machine. Not to say it's the only country in the world, but I feel grateful that I feel repulsed by violence. So there's nothing to go back to. I've made a lot of money I'd been in a long term relationship. It wasn't a sex and money. I was well educated, I read, I painted, it was creative. I play music, right. Okay, had all the things that people have longed for. Two, three, I was in intimate company, if you will, with the leading saddles at the mahasi Center. mahasi said, Oh, you know, one of the chief people at the sixth grade Buddhist Council, certainly, you know, the mahasi. Giga is considered the home if the birthplace of the worldwide mass les meditation movement. I had access to him in dialogue. I had access to them in behavioral apprenticeship, watching them how they talk, relate, share, listen, look. So Pandita became one of my closest teachers and friend, Dr. mahasi, died when I was in 1982. Right. And these monks at the time being that I was among the first Westerners I was told ever to ordain at the gate God. In modern times, handful of others, they delighted in talking to this young novice. And so we had an endless lineup of translators. And I had unlimited questions about the nature of consciousness and meditation and life theoretical questions, I'm sure they found me, you know, barely tolerable. But the delight of that Dhamma dialogue, if you will, was radically inspiring. And I just simply loved the regularity of monastic life, the idea of meditating a lot. It wasn't ever an issue of a lot, I actually enjoyed meditation. And so the last point was, I may not be a quick learner, but I'm very diligent student. And I listened very carefully. And so I listened to their instructions. I know that I didn't know. And I had great faith and competence that they didn't know. And so I put aside my, my own opinions and listened carefully to their instructions and followed them. And they turned out to be very valuable to do that very valuable approach to meditation. Just set your own mind, decide your own thoughts, your preferences, be mindful of, you need to be mindful of them. But by and large, just surrender and listen and do. And I did that. And the results were remarkable. And so I said, Why would I ever want to return to lay life when the results of focusing concentration and effort and mindfulness on the nature of mind leads to this level of insight and joy versus forget it right. And so those four things were the reason I stood,

Host 23:03

right, with the growth of the mindfulness and meditation movement, there was a change from a direct teacher student relationship over several years, that would be the teacher would give instructions based on their innate knowledge of the student and then moving into much larger courses and more regulated to be able to handle the numbers where you have to have administration and organized teaching set structure. This day, you do this this day, you do that. And really, it's the only way to accommodate those level of numbers is to set up some kind of structure. So you found yourself kind of in the, at the moment when that transformation was taking place. And you were with some of these great scientists. So this is the mahasi technique or this is the Pandita technique and this is how you're following it that kind of balanced with this is who you are this is how they know you This is how you're changing it's it's more of a fluid in the moment learning experience. How did you feel your relationship and your your learning and the instruction they were giving fill in that dynamic?

Alan Clements 24:07

Call it para me karma, disposition, past life present live familiarity of psychic phenomena. You just meet people in this world where there's a resonant connection. And I literally felt not only when I arrived that I was coming home and came home. I felt that progressively over the months and years of association with initially with mahasi said oh we say to Pandita Saito Sujata, Saito zalmunna, the principal of Addis Arias, and then branching from them their tribe. It was a remarkable network of cognitive meta Karuna, compassionate based, Donna oriented, dignified human interrelatedness. It was a dhama family and I went I never dreamt that human life. could provide this I've done a lot of psychedelics I've done a lot of meditation, I've done a lot of yoga, I'd fallen in love. I've written poems, I've done philosophy, I did art, I did Tantra, but nothing compared to the cognitive residents of Dhamma at higher levels with these great masters. Now, mind you, I'm not trying to speak about some attributes that I had some great insights, there was some insights. But I felt like I was coming progressively home to a field of consciousness that I'd never experienced in any other form of behavior. So it grew in depth, the instructions, it's funny about, you know, here it is, some 41 years later, let me just digress. I mean, I had the good fortune of bringing mahasi to America, bringing sadhu Pandita, twice to America and to Australia. I've seen the multitude interrelate with the Burmese Buddhist Tera vaada tradition, I've seen it relate to the so called mahasi teaching method of Sati putana, the so called Seda opendata interpretation of the mahasi, Sati, putana, tera, vaada tradition. But my experience in watching quite a few 1000s of Westerners sit with these teachers primarily was say to Pandita, through expert translators, and I used to speak Burmese fairly well, but it's terrible today. And listening to the diversity of those instructions, it had to put the so called mahasi method into a box is impossible. The initial instructions are pretty straightforward, right? But even just jumping around, for example, the last five years, we've had Yogi's coming between two weeks in six weeks from around the world to sit with the various monks at the mercy center. And again, I'm sitting in on interviews every day and listening to the diversity yet again, of the instructions and the experience. It's impossible to define the mahasi method other than the immensity of the Sati putana teaching, right?

Host 27:09

So it's very dynamic and fluid. And

Alan Clements 27:11

I've often said over the 3040 years, I've been involved in this system. And it's accurate, you could have 500 monks in a meditation hall. And over the course of a week, those monks and or nuns, which the mercy center often has between 303,000 Yogi's who see their teacher every other day, every third day, every one of their experiences overlap. But often the instructions differ, right, yogita Yogi, and of course, the deeper you go, the more dimensionality you find in your own mind and body. It's been my experience of listening and have my own practice. That over the course of two weeks, three weeks a month, six weeks we've had Yogi's save up to two to three years in silence. What you encounter what you hear instructions, six months in, it's like Stephen Hawking talking to a kindergarten teacher. The dimensionality of these teachings cannot be pigeonholed or box, there is no mahasi system. It's these infinite teachings of the of the so called Buddha through the power of mindfulness, illuminating the structures of nama Rupa, consciousness and physicality, in ways that none of us really understand. Even mahasi said, I'm not an arahant set aside being a Buddha, right. And none of them as you know, very well, having been here for so long, none of these people talk about their insights. It's so taboo prayer that no one really knows. But you have a lot of people in the world with attitude about this is what mindfulness is, is what it isn't. This is the mahasi system versus sunman versus, versus dotasia, Nia, or, you know, shadowman, or any number of the other teachers in this country. And it's just my experience impossible to play that game. Right? The best way is to not to sound preachy about this. The beauty of these teachings for me is direct experience. You know, we're breathing right now, obviously, and there's no substitute for breathing. There's no one who's listening you are I would ever go on the fact that listen, just save up your breath for tomorrow. You can't save up your mindfulness for tomorrow. You can't save up your the oxygen of your Dhamma for tomorrow. It's an every moment experience that requires the direct application to breathing, breathing Well, you don't just breathe to breathe and be mindful of breathing. It's what it does, it animates consciousness. Mindfulness illuminates the nature of consciousness. It's the wisdom of breathing. It's the wisdom of the practice that really turns you into something different. And if people get the direct immediacy of that, it becomes a timeless evolutional practice in your in this wild lineage of a Buddha, the Buddha life right and No one really knows ultimately, where that ultimately leads even mahasi when I've asked him, and he's been asked numerous times, are you and aren't more work to do, right. And so we're children, so to speak, in this demo. And so those are some of the insights that I've had about it. Just to recap, my experience with the mahasi system, which they would really refuse to even hear that it's not a mahasi system. It's the translation of the Sati, putana suta. And yes, there's a technique of watching the abdomen. But there are many teachers in that system that allow anapanasati there's many experiences that happen where there is spontaneous athenia, psychic powers, ESP, so many different things that never get discussed. Again, for whatever reason. Over the four decades of being here, I've sat in on 1000s of interviews and listened to 1000s of people's reports. And it's just mind blowing to hear the diversity of experiences that never get talked about.

Host 31:09

But that's a really beautiful answer. And one of the things that's making me wonder is, when a teacher comes along and interprets the words of the Buddha and has a technique or a system to follow through practice, that's in accordance with his understanding, or her understanding. Then as that practice grows, there can be other new teachers that have to come along to help to manage it. Obviously, mahasi is a major system, it's very popular all over, especially Southeast Asia, and it's been been many Western countries as well. And so there's been a need to as, as it started to grow mahasi had to mahasi say it, I had to have other teachers under him start to teach in his name, or that he was comfortable to, to expand and to teach the Dhamma. So what was the given what you just said, now? What was Maha C's? instruction or feeling about how much one should stay within some kind of confines or structure even if they were wider, something that was accordance with his understanding, and if it is so varied, and it's impossible to put anything in a box, then what what was the balance of freedom and trust he gave teachers in his name or teachers that he encouraged to teach, balanced with the his interpretation as wide as it might be of that was in accordance with kind of how he felt

Alan Clements 32:30

interesting. Again, in my experience here, stating the obvious, having had numerous hours and months and years of dialogue, primarily with the late venerable Saito, Pandita, who I mean, we spent decades discussing Dhamma to the book with him before he died, wisdom for a world in crisis, you know, I but I had 1000s of hours of dialogue with him. And mahasi said, Oh, and say to punti, to the principal, to senior nyaka, said all is in that tradition, maybe it was sila Nanda to some extent, but he really wasn't a meditation teacher, lacking to some extent, but primarily 72, who became the obata, sorry, of mahasi, when he passed away principle Vipassana, such a putana teachers, they made it adamantly clear that they never have ever have sanctioned a Westerner to teach in the system. Right? So anyone who's teaching in the so called mahasi system, is doing it against what they've been told by mahasi. Sarah, inside who Pandita has been adamant about that. Even Westerners I've been told, who've gone to see him asking for, can we be sanctioned in your tradition under you, and he'll say, not only know, but I would ask you to cease teaching, share what you know, from your direct experience, but don't use the word teach, right? Very different. And so that's one thing is that there are no Western teachers that have been accredited, so to speak within them, including me, right? I don't I don't teach Buddhism. I don't teach retreats, I ceased using the word. I simply share my experience of how I meditate and lead group discussions by those who want to come and reveal how I've lied to myself, how I've deceived myself, the insights, the fears, the proclivities, the experiences, but don't follow me. Right? Think for yourself, you know, follow the column assuta. Right. Do that which liberates and be very careful about assessing, what liberates from that which you think liberate?

Host 34:51

And how about the Myanmar teachers, the Burmese teachers under mahasi, what was the balance that mahasi or Pandita had with the flexibility and trust in them to, to to be flexible in their teaching and how much they should be in accordance to their understanding.

Alan Clements 35:06

Right? Well back back to what I was saying. All I know primarily is from my relationship was said it will Pandita mahasi said it who Sujata said, Who's Elena, and primarily said, ooh, Pandita because he's the one became my father, my brother mice, we became Dharma allies. He was. And he's the one I brought to America twice in Australia, where many 1000s of people practiced with him. And a number of key so called, I want to use the word teachers, but people who definitely claim themselves to be teachers align themselves with having so called trained under him back to the Westerners before I get into the maturity structure. And so my experience with him is that the breath dimension of these teachings under mahasi was most exposed to me through him. And the mentality of them are anywhere from basic arithmetic to Calculus. And the irony in the is that most people don't know much more than their own practice with them. Interesting, because you don't have you're not being trained as a teacher. Now in a, if you're a Burmese under the training to become a DME Acharya, or a Dharma teacher, meditation teacher in the mahasi tradition, it's a minimum of 10 to 20 years of, you know, deep study and practice, and listening to interviews, and even then, a long, long period of just listening and practicing. And they're super strict about staying within a framework of how they've interpreted the Sati putana suta.

Host 36:54

So there is something of a box and that

Alan Clements 36:56

is to pretty, it's like saying, you know, let me say it another angle, you know, one of the interests and made me drawn near Tomasi Seto was, he was unlike ooba kin who ooba kin was a board member of the Maha Sica. And of course, Coco was one of his students, but they isolated on physical phenomena, primarily sweeping the body. What what appealed to me about mahasi Saito is understanding and presentation of Sati putana mindfulness practice, it was called the all posture meditation, sitting, standing, walking, reclining, lying down, and then they called it everything in between. And so the emphasis wasn't so much on sitting, as it was being mindful in all activities. And so it took the pressure off of I would call it postural apartheid. Hmm. Many people think that standing or sitting is the priority of how you get concentrated, right? If you're not singular, on your nostrils, and the sensations, the anapana, the Samadhi, won't really, you know, become focused. But there they were saying, Listen, this is a wisdom center, to what we call our retreat, the wisdom of mindfulness. And they say, listen, approach the day when you're not sleeping, as a day of awakening, take it off of sitting, standing, walking, or lying down. And we were encouraged for a long time to eat every mouthful of food, as if it was your first and your last. I mean, they said constantly one of the, you know, instructions was take the speed out of what you're doing.

38:35

So slow eating super slow.

Alan Clements 38:38

When you open the door to set of open detached cottage, he would often ask a yogi when they came in and bowed and sat there waiting to, you know, reveal to the teacher their insight into a sitting, he would ask them, would you please tell me what you observed in reaching for the door knob. He wanted to know that you really were inclusive of being mindful in a continuous way, right? continuity and taking the speed out of life. And taking the preference out of posture were three distinctive marks of the so called mahasi system, which I found very fascinating. And so one of the challenges I've had in my life, I and I don't say this glibly but I OCD on meditation. And I think you can this is a whole other conversation. And it may work for the Burmese in their cultural setting, but as an American, in the cultural setting that I came from, having immerse myself in the Burmese system of silent intensive practice and celibacy and doing what I did there, and the degree of insight that I developed from that practice, I felt that the idea of integration was completely anathema to the Dhamma is ridiculous. There's no way to integrate this, this is meant to disrupt life. Right? You know, my life has been conditioned by seeing the value in Unreal recognized or, or disguised form of greed, called romance, you know, on and on and on,

Host 40:07

tore everything down.

Alan Clements 40:08

Yeah. And so you become in a way strangely, psychotic through insight. You become, you know, profoundly and adjusted to the machinations of how humans by enlarge, relate to humans in culture, to the point where you hear a sound. And it's impossible to stay steady with that sound. As you know, the meditator is deaf. So there's no way to integrate, hearing, hearing and being with auditory vibration and noticing greed arises. That's nonsense. The deeper you go in meditation, the less capacity you have to live in life, you need to be around super refined energy. That's been my experience anyway, sure, to make a long story short. The training for these people coming back to the Burmese, they provide a singular approach, which is very rare in this world, is that if you have an aspiration to explore the concept of enlightenment, they provide an environment free of charge for that exploration. And that is rare in this planet. Yes, yes. They speak not only highly of it, but take you in as a sister, a son of the Dhamma. And say, Please, all we ask is that you follow the rules of conduct as a lay woman, or a monk or nun or layman. And we'll teach you to the best of our ability on how to achieve insight into nama Rupa to gain insight into change and permanence and suffering, and possibly attain degrees of sotapanna. And pops, you know, something larger, deeper and more. And they're there to explore that with you. And it's very rare to have that level of fidelity right to the core teaching, which is the release from self generated Duka suffering, that was the reason I stayed there was that I knew in my heart I know today better than ever, that I am the architect of my own conflict, and my own salvation, and to take the pressure and blame and judgment off the world take the projection of the world. He asked his interrelatedness, yes, there's an impact that I have on others and others on me. But by and large choice, and mindfulness are integral. And I can't find anywhere in the planet where that becomes so accentuated, where you can eliminate at times, you're duco, your own self generated suffering, and to get a taste of that level of equanimity and joy and transcendence. There is no greater experience that I've seen as a human being born, right? Sure. That system provides that about the only place in Burma, perhaps in the world. But I want to protect the sanctity of those teachings to the best of my ability.

Host 43:07

Right. Right. So you mentioned when you first came to Burma was one of the things that first brought you there first caught your attention was this some mahasi book you found in Boulder, no, and Florida, Florida. And that was one of the things that that kind of sparked your journey. So back in that time, it was very difficult to get resources. Of course, there was no internet, there wasn't the kind of exploration in the west of Buddhism that there is today. Now from you know, podcasts like this one, mindfulness podcasts, YouTube videos, books, internet, everything else, the western practitioner has just an absolute mountain of resources at their fingertips, whether it's meditation instructions, or histories, or where to actually go to practice or thinking about or dating to be a monk. Whereas when you went, it was just one book you happen to find and left in a hotel room, or in some used bookshop, or that a friend gave you. And those were, whether whether it was, you know, mahasi book or blank, a book, or the these kind of random books that ended up in people's hands that often sparked the beginning of their spiritual journey until present day. So if you contrast kind of the dearth of these resources coming from the west into Burma at the time you came, and now you look at how much information there is available when you're coming to Burma. What, what's your observation is, you see practitioners coming in with the wealth of information that you didn't have, do you think that this information is a good thing and that it's helpful or do you think that sometimes it becomes too much and actually counterproductive to finding your way? Hmm,

Alan Clements 44:39

coming from my respect for universal human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of conscience, freedom of association, a country here, as we know that's had a terrible time achieving those freedoms, where there's a lot of courage to live in those freedoms My way of saying that I really appreciate the flow of information. And I'm not in a position proudly to say, of evaluating the wisdom or the ignorance of someone else. I do believe that if there's something for everyone, if you look carefully ask deep questions. And I would only encourage people in their search for where to go and who to associate with, ask very intimate questions of especially those who teach. challenging questions. Can you please tell me? Have you deceived yourself? Have you lied to yourself may ask you mme, do you hide information from your friends? Or from yourself? Do you lie today? How have you seen the translation of your insights into denial shame? Those types of intimate questions. And I'm suspect of anyone who claims to be a teacher, and super suspect of anyone who claims to be enlightened. Personally, I stay away from those individuals. I'm really allergic to them. Actually, I think that's a very healthy thing for me. But the information, there's no substitute for the power of taking yourself at some point in your immediate dominant life, the first 10 years into an intimate, meditative setting. and see for yourself what a sustained application of mindfulness can do in an all posture based method. So that you are not isolating in on the singularity of approach. You're taking technique out of it, and you're being all inclusive. When I move my hand, when I listen to words, when I speak, I'm aware of the intention to speak when I'm looking at you. I see you, I hear you, I feel you, I noticed my mind. So there's the application of becoming more awake as a human. That's very important. And I would draw near to those teachings and those people who are offering you a free environment, these retreats that we offer are free of cost. I think there's something to be said I'm not sure. I've, over the last several years, even in western countries have begun offering retreats freely, trying to even remove the word Donna. And just praying that a patron comes along,

Host 47:44

right.

Alan Clements 47:46

So that there's such a commerciality. In other words, and people have only arguments about this, but so that we maintain a higher degree of purity, that you can trust this and cease teaching, and reveal more of how you're learning. So you're creating safety in an environment, you're creating intimacy in an environment. These are the things that I would really look for. If I were at my daughter, for example, who's 13 wanting to explore Dad, where should I go to meditate? I would steer away from these things. And I would draw near to these things,

Host 48:17

right. So in other words, all the information in the world can't but make up for the special intimate relationship you have with a certain teacher in place. That's that still comes first.

Alan Clements 48:28

You know, let me answer it another way. In 95. I came back to Burma after several books that I've written on the country, and I met with Dong Santucci. We did a book together called the voice of hope. And she just been released from six years of house arrest. And I was blessed to spend two to three days each week for those six months. discussing with her and taping, transcribing these conversations in met many of her colleagues, the first time that we met because there was no guarantee that would ever meet again. She was subsequently re arrested and detained for another 12 years after this. But more to the point is I asked her Dong Santucci, you call your nonviolent struggle for freedom in this country a revolution of the Spirit, which is what do you what do you mean by that? So she said, you're out on the street. 1000 people gathered in front of my gate and we talked about the importance of freedom and democracy and dignity and challenging your fear. Now, Elon, every one of these people risked losing their job, their home, their money, and risk going to prison and possibly being tortured, to stand up in solidarity to freedom. And we encourage them to live in that freedom now rather than freedom tomorrow. Now, it's not easy to confront your fear when you could lose your home your income. Sure. Now think of those people, challenging everything to stand up and freedom and her point was, what I'm encouraging people to do here is to liberate them. From time and circumstances and teachers and breathe the oxygen of freedom wherever you are, so that these teachings wherever you go, you know, you are living them as you would breathing at this very moment so that you take time and circumstance, location, posture and teacher and teachings and religion out of it, and see that being mindful is like breathing. Feel, she said, Allen, ultimately, the root of this issue is courage, the courage to feel, see the truth, the field the truth and act on the truth, those teachings because her teacher was also said, Who Pandita, right. It's a translation of how to live in meditative Dhamma presence by taking the retreat consciousness out of the vocation of your career, and go, okay, she said, If enough people live in this level of courage to see, feel and act, one person at a time or revolution will be successful. And so coming back to what my point is, I'm a real believer to take the retreat, the ISM, the teaching the Sati putana out of your life, and who are you with? And how are you relating to that person? Are you breathing in your mindfulness to feel? What do you feel? What do you see? And what do you know? And go right back to those original 20 years of the Buddhist teaching when there wasn't retreats? breathing the oxygen of freedom. What is your Dhamma right here right now and to take the industry, the commerciality the time, out of consciousness. monasteries are just mimicking real life awakening. And that's the folly sometimes to becoming a nun and a monk. How many times you reading these Buddhist texts that a real nun or a monk is not someone who shaves their head? Or don't the robot someone who challenges their own greed, their own anger and their own delusion, and equally have the courage to embody their opposites? The opposite of greed, which is generosity of spirit, the opposite of fears is love. The opposite of ignorance is wisdom. How can I bring these qualities? Not the greatest thing that I've learned out of these teachings is non postponement, actualization, and the era of Hope is over. It's the era of actualization, breathing your meditation, right here, right now.

Host 52:22

I'm glad you mentioned your visit with Aung San su Chi, had some questions about that as well. One of the things that's interesting in this country is that you have the most powerful worldly leaders who are influenced by renunciate who have given up everything in the world. So you have this interesting dynamic I don't know if you find elsewhere. Just a couple of examples of that. Dong Dong. Soo G's father general long song was when he was a very young before he began the nationalist struggles and nationalist movement. He was very influenced by the Italian monk who Lok anantha, who was close with supermoon say it on webu said, he was so moved and influenced by this Italian Bhiku that he flirted with the idea told his mother that he was thinking about giving it all up to become a monk, and how history would have turned out differently with that. Years later, once Myanmar was that time, Burma was an independent country, of course, who knew wanted to make not just Buddhist identity, but actually the passionate practice, one of the cornerstones of the new Burmese identity of statehood that, that he felt, you know, if one the passionate practitioner came in every family what that would do for the country and did a number of state initiatives to encourage that to happen you know, they swept the country to look for compassionate masters they came up with a list of 71 names they said these 71 can potentially lead the movement they they made the assassinate the center before they even have had a teacher you know, the assassinate the center came first and then they found mahasi to be the one to fill it. But they just knew they wanted to have a center that where these teachings would flourish. So with that kind of backdrop, I'm wondering what the time that you spent with Dong Dong Soo Ji. With that kind of history of the country and kind of in the Burmese character, what sense Did you get from her personally about her relationship

Alan Clements 54:10

with the Dhamma I deeply admire her dhama commitment. And her from what I can see. Having met her and spent time with her, seen her relationships. I knew her husband quite well and her children, her principal colleagues, Luton, ooh, the nyaka of the NLD Gucci Mung, who led the 1990 elections and to announce the victory while other people were imprisoned, numerous people, these people have brilliantly I find, taken classical Tera vaada Buddhism with a high degree of respect for present time, present awareness and the discernment To understand the importance of recollection and memory and reflection, and how to make wise choices, not just being present to this moment now, but seen Sati putana as the necessity to reflect upon thought speech and action and to improve and to change to restrain to engage their skilled dama tacticians, in a number of ways and equally removing a lot of the classical language there. I would call Dong Santucci kind of trans multifaith. She's, from my experience watching her listening to her being around her. Although it's been some years I've met with her a few times over the last seven years. I spoke with her in San Francisco when she was there when she was awarded the ballclub Hubble award for creative dissent. When I was on blacklisted a few times, but knowing her very well from my time Macedo, who Pandita and also my time with her, she's a remarkably awake, hyper vigilant, being who understands from my estimation, the power of generosity, diplomacy, if you listen to her speeches, which I've listened to a lot, I know mon mon Marte who traveled with her for four years and recorded every speech that she gave throughout the country. very disciplined. Dhamma presentation of unity and harmony and satisfied aside the criticisms of hers, not my dimension to be in. I found her to be a dhama sister. In other words, she meditates. She's disciplined. She's awake. She's regarding the most complex conditions I've ever seen. Look at the complexities dealing with the military. Did you learn about her meditation practice when the time you spent with her? Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, she's, she's, she's a diligent meditator. And more than that, she's, again, I don't know her intimately. Well, I saw her as a colleague and as a journalist, and as a fellow student of the same teacher, but where I admire her the most is in the application of Dhamma principles in complex circumstances. And it's one thing to be concentrated, peaceful and joyful in the sanctity of a silent meditation retreat with everything being covered and vegetarian food and quiet. Right, you know, comfortable and warm water. Yeah. But to think about bringing these teachings into incarceration, torture, rape, displacement, malaria, typhoid, the loss of income, I mean, just to think of losing your job to stand up for democracy, right to take your money away. I mean, I'm in the last, the last, you know, months of 35 years of engagement in a four books out, called Burma's voices of freedom that I've interviewed over these years, not the leading voices, but people have been moved by Muslim clerics. Catholic Bishops set jonica sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu Pandita, is in their Dong Santa cheese in their Hutu news in their urban tins in there, who contains in there, so many different people from different backgrounds, school teachers, taxi drivers. And it's remarkable. To see the interrelatedness of all these different languages and ethnicities and religions merging into a revolutionary freedom. These people want unity, they want harmony. And I've never seen this kind of coming together, which often doesn't get reported in the international media. Because it's not people don't have access. I've been blessed as you have to take a deep interest in the heart of the people here. You've lived here for decade and a half. I've lived here off and on for 42 years. And so by way of saying she and her colleagues and other colleagues and other other political parties, other religions, there's a shared language here. They want peace, they know I'm suffering. And I would dare say that even probably some of the core leaders, oppositional leaders, those who may be either ordered or carried out oppression, probably in the core of their being. I know, having failed the mission of my own integrity numerous times in my life driven by greed, I would say that there's a lot of pressure here being put on the collective psyche of all the people to emerge into a cetina into a kusuma state of consciousness, a good state of mind. But we might see reconciliation take place here that transforms the society. We're in the world have we seen the convulsion of active active democracy, active non violence, with the forces of darkness and violence in one small nation, right. And so I'm not just fondue Burmese Burma. This is a collection of ethnicities, languages and religions converging on this ambient planet of ours. Here possibly in the dying throes of radical environmental apocalypse where people are talking not just about extinction, as you know, but near term extinction, where there could be hope among our species, where the power of peaceful revolution actually bears fruit. And we see something here that exceeds anything in South Africa, anything in Chile, in Burma could be the new hope. I really do believe in that I'm investing in that. And I don't care whether I lose. But these people have given me four and a half decades of incredible experience, incredible Donna, and an opportunity to study my own mind, and learn practices and techniques and teachings and relationships, as you know very well on how to be a better person. So I'm giving back as little as I can, as much as I can, during this last quarter of my life, to support the not just the democracy movement, but something larger than the freedom movement here, right? We're enemies in Parliament. And activists are sitting hand in hand Heart to Heart difficult as it is, I've been up there. And they're saying there's a there's a higher way. And it may be slow. And I think Dong Santucci has been the first to admit it may not be in my lifetime. But non violence is the best way to heal and to secure potentially the future, prosperity, peace and freedom of our people, all people. You know, I was in Bosnia during the war, the last year of Excuse me, I was in Croatia, but I also was in Sarajevo, just post war but I was in Yugoslavia during the fall, the three way genocide, and I was in trouble. And it's just after a couple of months after the genocide, there are 1000 Muslim boys and men were separated from the women in the soccer stadium. The Dutch keep the Dutch key peacekeeping forces fled and the Serbian paramilitary killed in a couple of days, 8000 boys and men, I was out there in these mass graves. And I realized to the point, looking into that mass graves of mass graves and those bullet holes in the walls, that how easy it would be for me to justifiably say, you're wrong, I'm right. Okay, that's natural. But what happened for me and deeper mindful reflection, I tried to really do what my teachers told me to do. Put yourself in the mind and body of the perpetrator and in the victim, and ask yourself, could this be you? If it were you? How would you behave? How would you do it differently? Or could you do what you are judging? And I honestly came to the decision that I could do what they had done.

Host 1:02:43

If I could kill our conditions make us

Alan Clements 1:02:45

yeah, I could condition I could move myself to do things that would later regret if I had conscience here in Japan, but I may not regret them. And so at that point, I dropped being a Buddhist, I dropped being righteous I dropped being right. My way of saying, I don't condemn the military, for killing the monks in prison in them, the monks and the nuns or what's happened in the clearance operation is with the Rohingya or anything that's gone down with decades of violence to the Koreans or even to the Burmese, the political prisoners, God, look at the struggles that they live with and depression and poverty still many of them, I could do that. I think that's where Dong Santucci is coming from and her wisdom of reconciliation is that none of us are beyond these behaviors. And why condemn? But why not live through example. And I think that's a very, very powerful teaching for me today to take a higher road new Pandita encouraged me to take a road of non punishment, non vengeance, non blame? Yes, you could ask for forgiveness. Yes, you could ask for a national televised admission of fault by tonch way or any of the other generals or former generals with the cronies. And maybe they'll do that maybe there'll be a moment of awakening where they have a moment of redemption. And the best way for that to happen in my life is to stop pointing a finger at me. And to awaken that hearing and that conscience in me, where I actually feel that it's safe to cry safe to come to terms with my transgressions, who Pandita told me before he died, Alan. Yes, your practice has been good. Yes, you have more to do. But there's a power in the human mind. And it's called admitting your mistakes. There's power in that you're a better man to do that. And I've never really understood that until the last couple of years. Three years since he's passed on. I began to practice it slowly among my friends and more publicly in my talks. That Yes, lead from how you learn from your mistakes. I think that's what Tom Santucci and the people have the NLT and the parliament and hopefully, those who are in power the whole collective will come to terms with a big open confession. This is what I did. Let's hold hands, let's move into the future of napkin national reconciliation, and give peace a chance for the sake of the future of freedom.

Host 1:05:12

Right, you reference this book wisdom of the world, which was the several years of conversation you had with a new Pandita, in which you were asking them questions that related to very modern problems in Myanmar, and also in the world. And you were asking these questions to a very classically trained, traditional Burmese Buddhist monk. How was that experience? How did you find his responses coming from his background to some of the very new and modern problems that you were you were questioning him about?

Alan Clements 1:05:42

Who Pandita You know, I'm listening to I so loved him. He was my best friend and my teacher, my father, my confidant. I never met anyone who so demonstrably, energetically, passionately encouraged in me, the power of mindful intelligence and Dhamma dialogue. So I asked to interview him for our soon to be released four volumes set of books from his voices of freedom. And he agreed, and we had a dynamic evening of conversation. And for the next eight evening, she asked me to come back. And I came back based upon that invitation in which they were taped and filmed. To continue the dialogue. He and I got down into the depths of what I felt to be the integration, the inseparable nature of Dhamma and politics. And I know it's monks aren't involved in politics and understandable and politics. But freedom is freedom. dignity is dignity. It's not a Buddhist thing. It's not a religious thing. It's not a Muslim thing. It's not a it's not a monk or a nun or a woman thing. Its dignity is dignity. It's without adornment. And he really encouraged me in these dialogues, because most of them were edited out, to don't teach Buddhism, share that this Dhamma transcends the Buddha, that it's the nature of consciousness in context, call it a world Dharma, which I do. And so the practicality of that I found it fascinating. Because he, there's nothing you could not ask him. He would not back down. So many times, he would, in conversation, pause, get out of his seat, and 95 years old, and ask one of his copier to climb the ladder in his cottage, which was 12 feet high of books. And he pointed out No, no, no, and move the ladder over and grab the book and pull it out and open it up to the page and you'd sit back down he had read from that page, right? to illuminate the answer so that he got it accurately based upon what he wanted to communicate. Where do you find that level of care with communication. And, again, his motivation I felt in that room those Nine Nights was purely his love of compassion, his love of the future of sasana very few people know what he had to endure based upon being tall and sunsoo cheese main meditation teacher, and being a deep teacher with otunnu and many other of their colleagues, I would say, he also had many students who belonged to the military. He transcended all dimensions, a Gandhian like advocate of peace, be the Dhamma that you seek to employ in the world, and constantly encouraging people to embody their Donna, their sealer, their meditative Bhavana, to embody their mindfulness, he really believed in the immediacy of an embodied Dhamma. He was very revolutionary in that sense. The room itself those Nine Nights, you'd see people, nuns and laypeople looking in the windows, listening, it was quite an epic moment, he died just several weeks after that. And sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu, to him for illuminating a wisdom for the world and what he called mindful advice to the people of my nation. And I cannot recommend enough that people read that small book, and read between the lines and feel into how those words are not just ink on paper, but they breathe the oxygen of a trans buddhistic trans ethnicity, freedom and peace he speaks about how to be unified in this country.

Host 1:09:52

Yeah. And he lived through a very turbulent years has to be said of Burmese history and his own his own life.

Alan Clements 1:09:56

That's right. He talked to me often when I first met him about how during In the war, he would see Japanese soldiers rape, Burmese nuns, goodness, they live through horror. Here. It's I can't say that it's a traumatized culture. But having been in war zones, and, and briefly under live fire, to be under bombing, to be in the realm of the immediacy, of torture, death, rape, to see your own monk killed, to have your students tortured. That's a tall, emotional order to hold and to keep alive. I'm just projecting here, a non bitterness, and to keep alive and active energy of reconciliation that transcends demonizing the perpetrator is pretty remarkable intelligence. I mean, I use the word mindful intelligence, but he frequently use dumb intelligence. The other side of that, too, is people may know that he had what's called the dumber culture course in Burma for the better part of 60 years, where the monasteries, the mahasi centers, and later on pundi dorama and Golden Valley in his several other monasteries. They encourage the young boys and girls to come for a month or two, to acquaint themselves with the basics of a lived Dhamma experience. And that's a beautiful thing that he taught so many 10s of 1000s of young boys and girls how to live in a in a dumber way. And again, I emphasize, although he was a, perhaps one of the most senior Buddhist monks in this country, perhaps anywhere in the world. Very few people know that about him. But he very people know that he, he was very trans religious. He was, I didn't know that. Super Transylvanian.

Host 1:11:52

Can you describe what you mean by that word?

Alan Clements 1:11:54

Well, I'm a brash, sort of slightly educated American into music and dance and intimacy. And here, I come along, and he and I become unbelievably close allies, bridging continents and generations. But he knew several languages, he was super literate with literature. He could, quote, Tolstoy, he was super well read. And people don't know. But he was the primary teacher in the mahasi system of teachers. He wasn't just a teacher of Westerners, but he taught the Burmese he's the teacher trainer, and the teacher can see that right. He was the principal trainer of teachers in the mahasi tradition. So he was super skilled at analogy and example, in parable. metaphor, and one of the things that he had, which is very rare to find in the world, he, if you had the good fortune, the good parmi to be in close with him. Even for an hour or two. He was super curious about you. So we could ask you very intimate questions, though. But who are you? Where did you come from? What was your relationship with your father? What did your father do? We ever upset with him? What did he do that you loved? Wow, to have habits that you don't like revealing, he really wanted to know about you. He was a kind of Dhamma, trans psychotherapeutic meditative

Host 1:13:28

kind of psychonaut, if you will, it's amazing to think of someone of his stature with his level of responsibility, being able to take the time to empty and listen and focus on on the life and psychology of just someone right before him and push out all the other things that are probably on his mind and he's doing and just to really embrace you so,

Alan Clements 1:13:48

so right to say that I mean, I'm, I can be, I want to say not the easiest person to communicate with him, you know, Lebanese, American, Arab, Christian, demonstrative, huge, massive family brash, he was I've never saw him in 41 years ever be impatient. And not only not cutting anything off, but people talk about deep listening. He, I would say I'm not projecting because I saw him with close to 10,000 Yogi's over the years, maybe more, and many lay people both in this country around the world. He had a way of creating psychical dimensionality and communication. It wasn't just listening. He created space around language around words. He took not only the hurry out of space, but he gave took the walls down from the intimacy of interrelatedness. And because you were so safe, he was a monk and, but he never really claimed teacher with you. He empowered wisdom overall. Found, and probably one of the most misunderstood people in modern times. But then again, you look at the time of the Buddha reading the text, whether we can believe them or not, who knows? But people like, was it David Dotto? Who created a schism in the Sangha based upon his eloquence and the advocate advocacy of vegetarianism. Imagine competing with the eloquence of a Buddha, right? fully empowered with no greed, anger and delusion, trained over so to speak eons of time to evolve armies of generosity, patience, not to mention all the opinions and you get someone who's unenlightened who can compete toe to toe on a Dhamma talk. So much so that splits the Sangha. How easy it is my point to be misunderstood. Sure, then you have people who tried to kill the Buddha, who knows where they were born, who tried to kill the monks and killed the monks, in other countries in this country. We're living out a kind of infinite, interrelated legacy of coreless energies have been called human life, lower life, higher life, we don't know who we really are, and who Pandita really played into that. That energetic physics, if you will. And so by way of saying, he gave a lot of time to you. If you showed up, and you delivered at a high level of intimacy and honesty, he loved honesty. But if you copped attitude, people don't really know this about him. And I think it may be a Burmese trade, right. But the issue of mana pride or, you know, the western ego concept, said, God, arrogance, I know, how come you're not acknowledging that I know, I'm a sotapanna. Under the practice of this particular teacher, I'm coming to you because you're so trained, but I want you to acknowledge that I'm a sotapanna. Well, they won't say it so directly, but they're thinking it right. And people don't know that he knows what they're thinking. He can see it in their body language, he can see what they're withholding, and how many times I would hear from him. Because he would often encourage a learning of what the interview is teaching us. That people's obstacle is mana, and one of the ways that mana is delivered to their own mind is the architecture of false certainty. And it's, it's built by the projection of an experience in the past that isn't what they think it is. And how many Buddhist teachers think that they're enlightened. And it's the very thing that prevents them from going deeper in their practice. Right. So

Host 1:17:53

how would you respond when someone came with some of that Manon,

Alan Clements 1:17:56

classical, this is my experience in Burma classical style is please continue. Let the practice do what it does let itself transform better than you learn from your own mistakes and we point them out. Find your own oil, in other words, or if they were really entrenched, he would play with them to some extent, oh, you asked me to marry you, but you're the one who wants to lead the ceremony. In other words, please listen to what I'm saying. Right? Like include every thought that you have. As unnecessary to believe to be very subtle, even the thought that you've attained sound chiropractic Nana, even the thought that you've attained udia by your Nana, even the thought that you become a sotapanna those are obstacles for people it just turns out that he often joked with me among some monks he would come and introduce me to that the worst Yogi's are learned monk, because they mimic their so learned in the Abbe Dhamma that's appeared in the suitors. And they come to practice and all of a sudden, they have no real relationship to experiential Dhamma. Or at least the practice of neon inside, that all of a sudden based upon unrecognized mana and pride, they begin to tell the teacher what they think the teacher wants to hear,

Host 1:19:31

or what they read in the book or

Alan Clements 1:19:32

what they read in the book, and they're trying to appeal to the good graces of the teacher to win favor. They already have lots of following they often have monasteries. And he would stay silent. He would give them not the silent treatment that's too severe. But he would just simply look at them and say please carry on please. Why aren't Why isn't he encouraging me? Does he even like me? had to prove myself even more. I've been sitting now for three hours without moving. He wouldn't buy it. Oh, He wouldn't buy and so a lot of people, I think who've judged him over the years like judge any good teacher, is because they didn't get what they wanted based upon their unrecognized mana. It doesn't mean that teachers don't have faults. Sure. But if you were to ask me what were his fault? I mean, I was with him as well as anyone in the world for 41 years off and on. Well, I would say only he knows where he has been caught. Whether it's in the form of forms, extravagances, things I don't know. But I've never met a human on the planet that I've had more respect for. Then said opendata mahasi, Sarah, Sarah, who Sujata said ozona. Say, who would tend to say ucci mon Uin. Tin, the journalist who spent 19 years in solitary. And I have a super high respect for Dong Santucci and the people of this country for living under such harsh conditions, and managing to continue to keep alive a culture of Donna, and sila and Bhavana.

Host 1:21:10

Yeah, that actually goes into my next question. So you, you're one of the few foreigners that really has a long memory and experience of having come back here over as you say, 41 years on and off. So you've definitely seen the changes happen year by year, as you mentioned, these are well documented changes. So these are these are things that you can pull up a Wikipedia page or look at a documentary to see some of the special things in the world, those changes are well documented. But as you keep going back to do to do retreats, or lead retreats or spend time with monks or just be in a monastic environment, what if any changes have you seen over the course of these decades and years? Interesting question. And that could be a material answer. It could be a cultural answer. Could be something related to experience anything from

Alan Clements 1:22:10

their biggest, the biggest change that I see is the quality of guidance. These were Tama giants.

Host 1:22:19

This was the golden years. Yeah, yeah. Dhamma giants is a golden generation of and what launched that golden generation from the 15th to the 17th. That's that's a whole other topic that I've also looked into. But the fact that this was a golden generation that launched all these giants coexisting at the same time to spread their teachings, and you came towards the tail end of it when, you know, it was still still very active and kind of petered out. But so that's, that's interesting that that's one of the, that's what really strikes you and looking today is feeling a lack of

Alan Clements 1:22:52

not so much the lack. But when you are when you are in relationship to giants, you have to recognize your size. I mean, how often do you get a Buddhist council that's been six in the last 2600 years, and to have mahasi sayadaw is one of the two principles. And I met his contemporary who had memorized the text. And who was mingan Sarah mangum, Sarah, these were epic individuals. That's one thing, that the teachings exist in the quality that you do. I've been here for the last five years leading these retreats, who I should say assisting from behind and listening very carefully to the monks while I'm in one of the hottest areas of mahasi. Today is Ooh, Silvana mahasi Saito's chief attendant, when I was a monk there when he was just a few years older than me. And he's now the head of the monastery. And the teachers beneath him are primarily monks who are in their early 40s. It's a youth movement almost

Host 1:24:03

as time passes,

Alan Clements 1:24:04

that's one. But the lineage continues, and I listened to them and I talked to them in their rooms and in their cottages. They're pretty hip people. I mean, the telecommunications today in the digital era, has really improved their access to information obviously. So they're dama eloquence and dimensionality with metaphor, analogy. parable metaphor is remarkable. So they're able to integrate a lot of classical teachings in a more interesting cultural way. For Westerners. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. But we have we have we have 23 countries coming for these 10 days for 50 Yogi's coming on, January 31. Now mind you, I say that I wouldn't really advocate people, Westerners being at the monastery if I wasn't there, behind the scenes. Offering cultural translation. And they know that. So the second point is all the people, the Buddha sasana nuga organization are primarily contemporaries of mine, I knew their fathers who Tim solin, whose father was open Gong was the president of the mahasi. When I was a monk there, he obviously died. His son now was the president. And I'm actually a year older than him. So, although they practiced with the Giants at one point, at the latter years of delay society, manifesting their greatest aspiration, which is to protect and propagate the sauce into those monasteries had a high degree of sanctity. Ooh, Pon de would walk the dining hall. Often. I know, because I lived there, encouraging Yogi's, slow down, hmm. I got he, then all of a sudden, you'd hear nothing. You wouldn't even hear a utensil. Now you go there. And it's not trying to judge it. But it's loud. Sure, sure. Slow down, he would say, take an hour to eat, walk slowly, back to the hall, skip going to your room. Take the speed out of your behavior. You don't see much of that. Again, I come from a an aesthetic I would call it of silence and beauty. I have that kind of desire in me. I mean, if I were the, if the Buddha Cessna nuga, ha brought me in and asked Alan, what would your aspirations be? to evolve the sanctity of this 20 acres? I would say I would take some of the Donna and buy an adjacent lot for cars to park into there's no cars allowed in the monastery, right? Take automation out. No tobacco is allowed in the monastery. There's 200 workers there. And you have to contend with not only just endless banging and building, but you have to deal with tobacco and talking. And so it's almost like intensive meditation and daily life. And so it's challenging on that level. Obviously, around the monastery, there's three 420 storey condominiums being built, you can't stop that, right.

Host 1:27:39

That's the ongoing these days, but

Alan Clements 1:27:41

creating sanctity, we had sanctity back in the day, you could walk slowly, and you wouldn't see a car, particularly coupon detail was really careful with slowing down. You don't really see that that much right now. So there's a number of things like that. But overall, the teachings exist in the way that they do. And we're honored. I mean, I'm back. This is our fifth year, and I hope to continue them. Right.

Host 1:28:04

Yeah, that's great. There's a lot more here, but I'm really conscious of your time. Really, thank you for coming out. And hopefully some other time we can, we can check. Thank

Alan Clements 1:28:13

you. Thank you real honor to be here in May. My last comment if I can play my people the world over who may listen to this. Whether you come to engage in de ma with any of the teachers that might inspire you. It's not just a dominant culture. in Myanmar. It's 55 million people in a complex tapestry of behaviors born from greed, anger and delusion. It's been very epic here. It's an archetypal Confluence. It's like what dusty esky said. Beauty is mysterious as well as terrible God and the devil are fighting there. It's the battlefield is the human heart. This culture has dealt with enormous beauty and enormous evil. If you come here, and I encourage people to come here, bring your freedom bring your human rights, bring your generosity and don't pressure the Burmese or the the chins have the courage and the mount anyone you meet to give you what you deserve as a tourist. But what can you give back as if you were going there on pilgrimage to serve the culture to learn from the culture? Go to offbeat places ask questions and and do all that you can to serve the liberty of this country and to support the best interest of the people who are trying their very best to Aung San su Chi are colleagues in Parliament, even the best interests of senior General mning online and the former general tonch way to support their Donna sila Bhavana their awakening everyone's awakening here. What can we do invest into the peace, the prosperity The unity and the reconciliation of this country because if we get reconciliation here, it could be peace on the planet. So that's my last encouragement. Give back to the people if you come here. Great.

Host 1:30:13

Thank you.

Alan Clements 1:30:13

Thank you.

Host 1:30:14

Thank you very much.

1:30:29

What am I gonna do? We're

1:30:32

gonna we got a busy, busy.