Transcript: Episode 5: Daniel Mayer

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Daniel Mayer, which appeared on March 1, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Host  03:34

There's no record of any extraterrestrial Dhamma retreats at least in the tradition of sn Goenka. But a common refrain is heard across the kitchens and Dhamma halls of a passionate centers in this tradition is that when the first non center 10 day retreat happens on the moon, Daniel Mayer will likely be the one leading it. It's not hard at all to believe it either, because that statement just about sums up the Dhamma life of the senior of a passionate teacher who has spent his career bringing the teacher of liberation from his own teacher going kanji in the villages spread far and wide throughout Latin America and Africa. few teachers in the tradition have consistently faced such diverse, challenging and unpredictable situations when conducting courses. Although his modesty would suggest otherwise, Daniel's continued effort, and deep sense of service is justifiably legendary. When I first heard he was passing through Yangon, I knew it would be a rare chance to get to speak with this nomadic Dhamma teacher. I just didn't know how rare it really was. I later found out that this marked only his second visit to the golden land, the first one coming 40 years ago when he ordained at the International meditation center. So it was a rare opportunity indeed, and a privilege to get to hear the wisdom and stories of this peripatetic octogenarian. The enthusiasm you will so plainly hear in his voice was accompanied by a twinkle in the eyes that only added to his charm, along with a sense of spontaneity that seemed ready to leap out around the next corner of our conversation. Daniel arrived at my home studio in the company of two other passionate teachers, one from France and the other Switzerland to ladder surprised us with a gift of hand carried Swiss cheese all the way from back home. Daniel, meanwhile, roamed around our house complimenting our taste and inquiring about the origin of a number of objects bursting out and delightful fits of giggles. At every answer. I could tell right away that our conversation was going to be a lot of fun, and I was not to be disappointed. The four of us enter the studio with one teacher sitting on the floor and meditation for the duration of the talk and the other recording the first part on his camera phone, periodically bursting into silent laughter from Daniel stories, which he had to muffle so it wouldn't get picked up by our sensitive mics. Get amidst the lightness and levity. A laser focus took shape and Daniel's eyes When reflecting on a question before he launched into a detailed and insightful reply. The interview done we enjoyed a lunch in which it was my turn to respond to a host of questions, as these teachers had much to learn about the art of Burmese cuisine. They then rushed back to dama Jyoti in time for registration on the upcoming Sati putana. Course, before undertaking a 10 day pilgrimage in upper Burma, of the lineage figures of the SN Goenka tradition. This podcast is really fun and between the laughter there's a lot to learn as well.

Daniel Mayer  06:31

My name is Daniel Mayer, and I was born in Buenos Aires, Argentina 1940 and I came to them by 19 say 74 more or less. And I first meditated in Mahayana tradition Naples Copa monastery, but I knew that there was something missing for me to really get deeply identified with Adama. And I was then inspired by two other friends who were in the monastery to come to attend a course on love. And that was Vipassana by a single Inca. So from January 4 1975, I found my path my way or reason to live love his own database in French. And I then got a student visa as a meditator, and I was living here for three years. In those days, we did not get more than seven days visa to come to India. And I continue to meditate and so went through nature cure and things like that. But it was so nice in those days that several of our meditators would go to bed. And for seven days, that was the visa that we got. And during a certain period, I had no money. But everybody wanted to go to Burma. We thought that just coming here was enough through osmosis to become a mini Buddha. Patrick Buddha, no, no, no, not a particular Buddha. But anyway, there was a lot of superstition, I'm sure in all of us. So, because I had no money, but we were also close to one another friend of mine said, Oh, other meditators who we met, we were all meeting in the courses. They said, Daniel, come with us, don't worry, we'd pay your airline ticket. So that was the camaraderie and that was also the bond that unites us, as all students who were continued sleep meditating in this with Guruji. I said, No, thank you very much. I accept that intention of inviting me and paying my airline but I can't go to a country without money. So I didn't go. But always this in the back of my mind there was always this idea that Myanmar being the source of them were Dhamma was maintained its percent purity. And then three years later, I went back to the west to, I don't know, maybe to develop more parameters or to keep up my trip. And those days were all talking of trips, while in Europe. I meditated in courses with Mr. Coleman and Mother syama came down in India I met Robert hover, who came to our Goenka courses and sat for a few days with next to go into conducting but couldn't go into was conducting Guru Ji we call him and Bruce Dennison also came to India. We meditated together and guru G's residents will state next door very dear Do beach next to a tobacco factory. It smelled like tobacco, but all meditators who many meditators were there, I was back in Europe. And then the word went around that anybody that wanted to come for an extended period of time to Burma, if you ordained as a monk could come, and that was, I think, the biggest opportunity, but still in Dharma, you need the blessing of your parents or very close people. So the parents of a very dear friend of mine, I went in I said, You know, I would love to go to Burma. I have the money. I have nationalities necessary. I mean, we get a passport or visa right away, but I need somehow rather somebody blessing or support. And they said, you better go this. You have all everybody's blessing. You should go and I went, we landed in Rangoon. They picked us up the same day. They shaved Our head, change our clothes. And we already in monks clothes. There was a head monk who would have would be our so called mentor I think. And they put us in 100 remember who was a bus or tractor. It was not attractive and it was a cameo cameo in his glory. And we went to Sri Lankan pagoda for 30 days I was a monk, it was really very interesting. We only had four days of anapana day fourth, we had Rita Santa, and then from there on, you meditated. As long as you decided to stay, if you were to stay longer than 30 days you had to register but until 30 days, it was okay. You did need to rise to a special registration. I remember Eric Cooper. He is from Austria and he is a school teacher and his vacation because it was Christmas New Year time. 1980 is he had to go back to school. Where he was teaching. And I remember he do ordain That is to say he let him change the robes into normal clothes. And I can almost see his sadness and his grief that he had to let go of being a monk. That was very impressive. I never really appreciated deep enough what a blessing it was and how wonderful it was to be a monk. Maybe because I was more superstitious and thinking, if I'm in Burma, it will happen without me or in spite of me, or something. That was the first really experience of seeing somebody who is totally devoted to drama in a way that the grief is there because you can't continue because of the circumstances, whether it was money, whether it was family obligations, whether it was so many of us had parents who were sick, we had to take care of parents, or some many of us had other pending issues that we had to create clear and clean up before our panoramas were ready, and ripe enough. I was very happy that we only had four days of an apana very happy. I said, Oh, I never go back to Greg is ridiculous here. It's fun. Notice I come to our tables and sit with us and talk with us make sure that we enjoyed the food. One of the experiences that I had from the days when we were a monk is on Sundays people would come from the village we were all standing with our bowls in rows, and the village people would come on Sundays and give us things and I was so happy because they gave me so many toothbrushes and other goodies. Obviously big again you see the maturity of a student even in spite of the robes so I was ready to go to my room with all those gifts and tennis. You know, you pass by the meditation hall and you put everything you preparatory Hold because it's for everybody. There's nothing yours. I mean my the short time but obviously too long. I was disappointed, but I had enough soap and enough to toiletries and things like that. So I put it in the hole and went back to my room. We were all sleeping in one big room, there were several rooms, which gteen would give an evening lecture, mostly from the texts of the to putana majima suka Siam he would sit and put a cushion next to her and I interpreted this as it was set you back in this is visible his energy accompany her a bit like Guruji in the center in Dharma Giri in India would always have a light on presented Guru Ji saachi obviously, so this respect, I immediately took him so in that sense yes. There's definitely an important step that you take when you are amongst holy people are most honest people sincerely met people. And that was really the core of being a monk. We needed nothing. And we really didn't expect anything. And that was, but as far as meditation is concerned, I think it really depended more on the individual, not on what we were receiving. I remember meeting many meditators who had been with us, like, for instance, john Claude, say, from France, and john Claude told me many times that for him the deepest experience in his life was the year when we were monks when we ordained and I think he repeated that a year later as well. For me, the learning came by sitting Vipassana courses with Guru Ji and abstaining, which freed me from guilt which abstaining which put me closer to A lifestyle, which I've never regretted, and I've always been grateful to have fallen into. I used to be the son of an owner in Argentina, so very wealthy, I had a Rolls Royce and a yacht, anything that money can buy, and you are this other environment. You're really subject to others because you depend on somehow rather than the intentions of being supported by others. Even if you have some money, because you're not I wasn't a monk forever, but I stopped burning. And I must say that today at 80, and I'm so grateful that I did what I did. I'm so grateful to the teachers that accompanied us. And yesterday or day before when I met Gucci teens, nice because she her mother and her jeans father, were brothers. Or the other way around. It was so inspiring, so inspiring to meet somebody my age who had sat here in Burma from Burma with also backing and with Guru Ji and she knew Goenka, obviously, since he was 16. She sat here. There's nothing really once you're in dumb that you regret. Now that I'm here back after 40 years, what I remember of having dinner monk is a feeling of being welcome. And that's something that I don't have in other places in the world, Myanmar somehow rather, and that has nothing to do with me, but it's in this soil or in the people. They just welcome you.

17:49

They

Daniel Mayer  17:50

it says if there was a silent language, you cannot purchase it. You can exchange it, and it's there. So I don't have to show any pedigree. So in that sense, I'm really very grateful that I could come back and I could experience this. I'm sure that being a monk means to let go of everything. And I know that that was not my intention 40 years ago. So in that sense, maybe it was premature to allow me to be a monk. And it was maybe even a lack of respect to the Buddha, to allow us to be monks to represent him without the maturity. On the other hand, I remember Guruji going, say, if I would have been with you guys as strict as I'm now you would have run away. So in that sense, I'm sure that yes, it was good that they gave us an opportunity and we owe gratitude and respect. I know that when I see a monk today, I will not just pass by and cross but feel this sense of devotion, but not devotion, and that sense of admiration, to give up so much. And thank you very much for letting me be here.

Host  19:10

Thank you so much for having us. That's just a beautiful introduction into all of this. And I want to go back to the early days something you mentioned about your upbringing in Argentina. Often when we think about the spread of Dhamma in the world, we think about it going to India or other Asian countries. And then we think of kind of a more white middle class hippies in the west of which your background is a little bit outside of that. And so I'd be curious to know about the circumstances of your growing up in Argentina, your family's background, religion and spirituality of your youth and the movement from there to the early interest in wanting something that obviously wasn't you weren't finding in your your immediate youthful surroundings,

Daniel Mayer  19:59

basically. I am convinced that it's all panoramas

Host  20:03

Can you explain that word for people who might not know,

Daniel Mayer  20:06

I think we are reborn. And there's something in French court deja vu, which is an affinity towards certain people whom you meet for the first time and you feel very close to, and there is a rejection towards others and circumstances and also. So when I took off, there was an affinity in me from before, which is independent from my background. But what I did learn at home is that freedom was very important. So, being born and raised in Argentina, because freedom was even more important than power, or than even money because I always had money so money was never important. Then, when the dictator would, Pirone was re elected In 19, so he had to leave in 1955 or 53. And he was living in Spain and then he was, again brought back to Argentina in 1972. I think it was. So that said, This isn't possible I cannot live I was already 32 or 31. But I said I cannot live in a country where a dictator who I know is a dictator will come back. So that made me leave Argentina. Now, what made me touch them was reading books like from Hermann Hesse, from jeetu, Krishna Murty, who I thought was really wrote exactly how I felt. I went to his center in England, in London proctored and I was able to be hosted for four or five days in his school center and he happened to come from signing to that while I was There, we had lunch all together with the students, those writers, those holy people, I remember meeting one of the students because I attended some of their classes said to me, this is a very difficult school because all the students, you cannot punish them. So how can you keep discipline if you don't punish the students? These behavior patterns are very dynamic. And they spoke to me. So in that sense, I think that yes, one is led whether through books or through the inspiration of your background, your parents, so

Host  22:32

yeah, right. And so then somewhere from you were you were in England and studying with Krishna mirchi and then found your way to India. Did that happen? India happened after England?

Daniel Mayer  22:43

Well, I was living in Paris, France, and I went to England, most probably as a tourist. And in the books, I went to a book bookstore. And there are so many books from Krishna Murthy was a very special bookstore and then I said Or I spoke to the owner and he said yes, he lives here. And I couldn't believe that there was somebody living in my generation who was able to write as he wrote. So then I went back to the hotel. Yes, I was a tourist. And I left a note if I don't come back in three days, everything is yours. Ah, because I thought if I stayed with Krishna Murty Aha, that was it. I didn't need anymore because I really believed that somehow rather, if you are attracted to something and you discover it as your own truth, you don't need to look anymore. You're there. So there's no point in moving further anywhere. But yes, after three or four days I did. I went back to my lifestyle. So what brought me to India was I had a birthday party. I lived in a big apartment. Seven room apartment with three fireplaces in Paris. And we were all trying to be happy. But we're not trying to be calm, but we were only loud. And there was this one girl. She was sitting there very calm very quietly and I was very impressed. And I asked her, how come you're so calm? You're so quiet. You seem so tranquil. And we're trying to be and we're just building up more tension and more aggression, although I didn't, in those days, identified as aggression. And then she said, Yes, I come from Nepal, where I took a 30 day course with Lamaze. So I thought, okay, that's what I need. And that's what took me to Nepal and from Nepal. I felt that because I didn't like mantras and I didn't like prostrations. I thought that was not the path. I was happy with my life. So I think if you're happy with your life, you're looking something that coincides with that state of mind that you have.

Host  25:10

Right? So, there's been a lot more interest in this period of kind of like the hippie backpacker culture of 1960s 1970s, encountering the Buddhist teachings and a lot of other Eastern teachings as well. And we have these amazing memoirs that have come out from people like john Coleman, Eric Lerner Bhiku yoga, yoga, vichara, I don't know his lay name, who described the scene at the time. And then there's this recently released documentary from me in March of the world overland from India, documents those same years. This was back when it was all much more of an experiment of very diverse cultural moments that were coming together. And it's since led to the formation of functional meditation centers all over the West and all over the world. But those early years those different cultural movements and people's meeting each other and sometimes experimental and surprising ways, is actually where it all came from. And I wonder if you can paint a picture of your own experience during this time and describe what that India scene was like for people who never had the chance to see it.

Daniel Mayer  26:17

I don't think that I have the answer party. I was never part of that hippie. I always was a son of an owner. So I always lived in certain comfort and luxury, like Marionette used to say, oh, if they don't have bread, give them cake. So in that sense, I really didn't identify with the hippies and those people. But what I did realize is that for me, in India, things were very easy. I'll just give you an example. I suffered one of the many courses 10 day courses with a friend and she was the daughter of the Consul General of Afghanistan who To become an ambassador Oh, and after the course we, she said, Oh, come with me and let's go home and I stayed with her in her father's home, which was the Embassy of the Consul General of Afghanistan. And I stayed there for a few days. And then they drove me in their ambassadors car, diplomatic ambassadors car to the rig which station Victoria railway station for me to go to pathankot and then I would go to Dharamsala. So here I arrived at the railway station. I bought this train ticket and all of a sudden I realized, Oh, I have 1000 rupee built. In those days, they were even numbered 1000 rules, and not enough little money short money, like 10 rupee notes or 150 rupee notes. He were very rich with 10 rupees in those days. They must have seen me behind with me coming and then all of a sudden looking, how can I pay my ticket and They may have helped me or maybe took all it helped was enough. And because I didn't have the train ticket, I arrived maybe two hours earlier. So then I got my ticket, I went to the train set on my seat, put my suitcase on top and fell asleep. Now in those days, I had my little cushion, and inside my cushion, I had my passport and my money. And I sat on it. That's what I had. And everything else was in my suitcase. While I was sleeping, they stole my suitcase. Then I wake up because the train is leaving, and I see that my suitcase isn't there. But I realized, oops, I have my passport. I have my because I always travel I travel one way ticket. I have my passport and I have my money. So what and the other people say oh, your suitcase isn't there. You have to go and get off the train. I said no. If I get off the train Then I lose a train. And I want to go to pathankot. So I decided to stay in the train. And sure enough, the train leaves. And I said, and the people in the train in the wagon where I was realized, yes, I wasn't there. And all of a sudden somebody goes to the bathroom is hey, here's your back. And they give me my back. And all that was missing was just the clothes that oh, well, and the toiletries, which I bought for maybe 100 rupees once I got it.

Host  29:31

So when you were in India, was there like a popular bucket list for the travelers that were going like? I know there was obviously there was the Glencoe experience. There were also things like Osho Maharishi Transcendental Meditation there, all these probably other movements that were starting to take off that we've long since lost the memory of today. And I wonder what that scene was like for just the chatter in the interest and the places that different people were going the experiences they were reporting. That's a that's scene that's now so lost in the world we have today and yet, everything today arose from that vast mixing of cultures.

Daniel Mayer  30:09

It's very true. But again, should you be disappointed from my answers? I had found my path. So I decided to the body is still important. So I went through nature cure and that's where I really put a lot of energy. Now, then, I went to different nature cures, one of which was a kaivalya Dharma yoga, hospital and college what is nature cure nature cure is like the body treatments with through fasting and through healthy eating and through exercises. So natural living No, but it was mostly fasting something colonics or enemas, and sometimes Bro diet and yoga exercises. So I went to this kaivalya Dharma yoga, hospital and college where they really have very healthy food and very healthy lifestyle in lonavala which is between pu ne and, and Bombay. And I remember it was also in the 70s, mid 70s. Many of those people who are doing this retreat of healthy living and yoga exercises and they also have theory of Patanjali who was their, their so called spiritual teacher. And they said, oh, we're going to lonavala to Cooney, because they're this this guy called Osho. And he is very famous and he's very spiritual and very whatever. And they told me many days, I was there several weeks, and they also often said, Come with us, come with us. And I said, No, I'm not interested. I wasn't interested. So I wasn't curious. And I wasn't interested. I never went until now. 40 years later, that through YouTube, I see a video on our show. And I say, wow, I have nothing to do. Let's watch a wild, wild country. I watched it. And it's a series of six hours. Yeah. But I never knew it was six hours because it is one hour. And then after one hour, this is another hour. And then there's the other hour then I see it's six segments of one hour. And I said ridiculous, right after the second or third segment, I went to the last set, which was six. And then I realized that I went back so I Yes, I saw that. And I said, God, am I fortunate I'm never to have been tempted right to fall into people. who maybe had a different intention at some point, but who only work through Samadhi through concentration into hypnotizing or in imposing themselves or their intentions on others,

Host  33:20

right? And when you're young, and all these things are new, it's very difficult to have any standing or background to know Well, these messages all sound very similar. They're all it seems like they're all kind of saying the same thing in different ways. standing back now and looking at who these teachers were and where the movements ended up, you see that they couldn't have been more different, but from the ground up, when you're in that swirl of, of activity, it's hard to make that distinction in differentiation, different differentiation.

Daniel Mayer  33:47

I don't know if I fully agree. I don't know if I fully agree because I really believe now that I've seen this ocean trip. We like the word trip. And I remember more about it. Number two, it's people who are not satisfied, not satisfied with themselves and not satisfied with the world around them. So, I really think that as you say, there were people who used or misused India, who used or misused these other so called guru self appointed gurus. And yes, they fell prey to weaknesses.

Host  34:31

So, at the time, even at the time you feel that you saw a real distinction in the different teachers and courses. Yeah, Can Can you expand on that? And you you would also along with that you had mentioned before that you had already found your path. I also wanted to clarify, what, what path Did you feel that you found in India and how was that path different than these other traditions that even on the ground and I'm very glad you corrected me and my assumption that even on the ground and at the time you felt this is very for other people, maybe there wasn't that difference that you saw. But for you the what, what worked for you and where you wanted to continue was extremely distinct from other teachers who were doing similar things, but something was very off that made you disinterested and looking more.

Daniel Mayer  35:24

So I think there are many answers. And there are many different points that you're really taking up. And I appreciate that. As far as I'm concerned, the voice of SN Goenka, the honesty of SN Goenka and the total commitment was enough. For instance, in those days, I remember we had to pay for 30 Indian rupees per course. And I went and there were people who didn't have that money. And they went around and asked for the money and when I got my money out of my room to give to them, they already had enough and they were already inscribing themselves for the course. And I go and pay my 30 rupees. And I peek at the names of the people whose, as I was also very curious. And I see the name 'SN Goenka, 30 rupees.' So he paid, for though he was a teacher, as a student, to contribute to everything. I thought it was so special. Then there was a special humor. He has a sense of humor that really felt so close. Charlie Chaplin once said that you have to be also very humble, if you're humorous, but it's not only humble humility, but also to catch you with surprise, not repeat what you already know. And we laughed so much at his discourses because they were so vivid, so true, so real. So it was not just his voice. It was not just the fact that we were looking for something or that I was looking for something. But it's also what we saw in him. In the early days, you could go to his house in Juhu Beach at six o'clock in the evening, and meditate at his house with him. He didn't have to do anything, you just walked in, you sat down and that was it, and then you left. That's why we also all lived, including Ruth Dennison, very near to the beach home. I think, other teachers, although I don't know because I really wasn't so interested. But they really wanted to praise you. If you were somebody that could could help them and Goenkaji, he couldn't care less. He already looked at you as somebody who was an orphan, and that's what we were.

Host  38:14

And you had an initial interest in Krishna Murty and that that led obviously that led from from that interest to to moving on and taking the going congi courses. Was there a reason or a transition that that was made?

Daniel Mayer  38:27

For me Krishnamutri never stopped to be a teacher, never stopped to be my teacher. Right. But what happened when I was at his center and also with him are later in Ohio and this is I experienced total silence. It was really, it was very it's very difficult to describe. But when you were there, there was nothing that you needed to think about. It was nothing that you had any questions about it was just a void available. You are an actor, which means no, I know me no mine. So there was there was an Plus he never looked for meeting with others to continue the process where it is going. Yes, he invited you to continue a process. And then he started with Sati putana courses, which is the seven days instead of 10 days, but only for all students and then long course says. So in that sense, he offered something that Krishna Murthy never off, right,

Host  39:37

right. Yeah. Can you describe the circumstances of your first going Of course experience what that was like what the situation was like what the course setup and such.

Daniel Mayer  39:49

I'm sure it did disappoint you. Because I had no idea what it was all about. Sure. In those days. It was at the mahabodhi Society at the Burmese VR at the Burmese VR. Sorry. And you could sit anywhere you wanted. But that seat was for the whole day. So I didn't understand why they were pushing to be the first ones in the early morning at 430.

Host  40:23

So every day it would reset

Daniel Mayer  40:25

every day you had you had the choice of wanted, right. And so most of the people, really at four o'clock, even almost before the gong rang, we were

Host  40:37

ready to go. That's one way to get people in the damn Hall early

Daniel Mayer  40:42

dabinett do it work. And I sat in the back and I really loved his discourses, loved his voice and knew I was in the right place. But I cannot say what I understood And I cannot say that I heard Guru Ji say at the end of the course now you meditate every day morning and evening. So for me it was finished, the course was finished and I did I done my nothing was bending. And only after more courses did I realize, Oh, I missed something I should have continued to manage.

Host  41:25

And how were the How was the physical circumstances of those course was? were students sharing a room? How was the food? How was the bathrooms,

Daniel Mayer  41:33

so it depends where you had the course we had it at the Burmese v heart. They were two bits per room on one side and on the other side is like a square. There were the women and many nuns and I was very impressed by the fact that there were so many Catholic nuns in that course. I had a very nice Swiss young boy student from Sam gallon So we could talk, some people would buy it, we could talk except for three or four days during the 10 day course I say that, but otherwise you could talk. And some of us, not me, because I wasn't that would buy Chai, milk tea from the gate, but he couldn't leave the gate. So the man would come to the gate and sell you for a few cents. I really don't know what it was like for others. In Africa, now I'm conducting courses in Africa. And for instance, at Theo Pia things are very different on day 10. When noble silence ends, these autopen students make sit around in a circle. And each one talks about their own experience as just like in prisons, courses, they talk about your own experience. So this was never our case. I don't think we were really social. We were really more in involved in ourselves, like, for instance, after Vipassana. In January, I was so impressed and proud I stayed there. And then later I even rented a room and for 30 rupees a month now to decide what one So, no, I was not interested in others, but others were not interested in me either. We were very close. Only after there was a center in igatpuri 1970s, then, yes, because it was a center, there was more of a brotherhood over amongst us. But why were they were all these non center courses. We didn't care about others and

Host  43:45

others. So you're saying before a center was created when it was a non center culture that that had an effect of not necessarily making a community or a sense of belonging. Definitely. Interesting. Definitely. Absolutely. Right. And going to G was Teaching all these courses themselves at the time?

Daniel Mayer  44:02

No, no, no. When I took my course in January 75, he was already with his wife, and his wife would accompany him and sit next to him. And it was surprising like for instance, when you go, you expect the teacher to be lit, enter the stage to be very well lit, and there was the opposite on the zero. As he walks in, he starts chanting as he walks in, there were no and they, the lights were very dim. So, in that sense, yes, again, he was not trying to praise himself, but let the Dhamma take you. Lead you

Host  44:45

Yeah. And then with the founding of the center in 76, I think you said it was that brought more of a sense of community and belonging much more, much more,

Daniel Mayer  44:53

much more. And also he was such a renunciate. Like, for instance. First, we would Have in the early days, when the center or is already created, he would have the direction towards one side. And then after that he turned it to the other side east west. So all of a sudden, then he immediately after two or three courses, he gave a 30 day course there so as not to deprive others. He was parallel in the same hole. We had the 10 day students sitting on one side and the 30 days Oh, wow. Underneath below and his courses were different. And his room was very black next to the garden very minimal. It was really nice. And that's when Robert hava came to visit him. He was very impressed. And I

Host  45:51

think what's what's hard to appreciate in this time looking back on that is that now that we have such a format for centers and administrators And protocol and appointments and everything else. You You just kind of lock in and things are already moving. There's already a roadmap. But the thing that I think is so remarkable and that you have to put yourself back at the time is there was no roadmap for what he was doing, of course, say ijeoma Ken was doing this thing at IMC so he had that kind of inspiration and and support but for what he was trying to create, where he was trying to create it, who he was creating it for. It was really correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like this vast experiment of let's put it together in this this way. Let's see how it works. And I think the the courage and the risk of failure and criticism and the unknowing I think it's really important to put yourself back there in that time and and just kind of see how scary it was and see how what incredible, you know risks and and courage it took for him to try this thing that had never been done and maybe he didn't do everything perfectly, but But it's so easy to try something and then have someone standing back say, Well, you know, you look at this and look at this. But at the moment of doing it, you're putting yourself out there in such a vulnerable way to do something you care about and just seeing what happens.

Daniel Mayer  47:14

Exactly, exactly. And I have many instances that prove what you're just saying, for instance, it was 9:30pm. I was in my bed. And I just had to go out for I don't know what reasonable they called me. And I was in my pajamas. And they tell me, Daniel, come on, come you have to see Gucci right away. That's it, but I'm in my pajamas. At least we get dressner you come as you're covered. This is enough. So here they take me to gorgeous residents. And there was a lady speaking Spanish, who English was very, very weak, and she was complaining to going that he is so demanding that for him, everything has to be perfect. But for us, for her as a student, she is giving a cot and no comfort whatsoever and what type of a teacher is he that lives in such luxury? Whereas she as a student has nothing? Hmm. So here they call me and I'm supposed to try Guruji is their city with his mind and so much met so much love and kindness. So, all of a sudden, I sit there and there's a blank in my mind. I cannot think at all my all my thought patterns are stopped. Hmm, as if I weren't me. And all I could hear was her voice and his voice. It was something that really struck me and I'm still so much impressed. What happened how is possible through his concentration now that I know a bit Through however the environment and know that something could be stopped so much so brusquely, and I translated, and I remember what I translated over, and it was that she was complaining, and she was showing the carpet that he was, but she was sitting on and Guruji said to her, but this carpet was given so that you sit comfortably, not for me. And he had so much patience, no matter what the complaints were, no matter what the commentaries where he had so much patience, in really making the students understand that it's not for him, and he is not there for himself but he is there for us. I remember another instance where we really wanted Chai, which is this Indian tea with milk for her specially at 12. Crop after. And the cook mahaveer would say no, no, we don't have enough money. No Thai milk is too expensive. It was very early days. The tea was cheap, but Nick was and we really wanted it and we had very good teachers now like Dr. Joe polish, and he would represent us all and go to going to talk to you because they don't want to give us China Students Union. Exactly is that it's a steal. And Guruji would talk to my Javi tell him give them Chai, okay, tomorrow, but only tomorrow. And then again two days later, no more like this like this. So yes. I don't know if it answers a bit.

Host  50:56

Yeah, yeah. Right. And, you know, because I think no Now that the center's are all set up and everything looks like they they just run so fluid, of course there's there's problems, but nothing in terms of the experimental nature of the older days there. And also, I think the way as a student one hears the narrative, there could be this sense of, of fate or destiny, the Dhamma has to spread everyone is just a recipient and making it so and I think that leaves out the dynamic quality of what it took to to implement, I don't even want to say a system because it's a system now It wasn't a system then. But when you when you kind of subconsciously think about it as as a state of passivity, where everyone's just playing their roles and something that has to happen. With that mindset, then you leave out this dynamic, courageous, scary environment where you're trying things and seeing what works and you're adjusting and you you don't know what's going to happen. We see where it came to today. But you know, one of the features of looking back on history is that when you look at those moments, the thing is we know how they turned out. So because we know how they turned out, we can read into that knowledge. But if you put yourself back in those moments, not knowing how it's gonna turn out, then things take on a different shade.

Daniel Mayer  52:21

Absolutely. And I think this is really a I don't know if the word is problem, but because Guru Ji worked according to the needs, there was also a certain apparent contradiction, because he would say, according to the situation, something that would not relate to another situation somewhere else. Sure. So in that sense, I think this uniformity that has been evolving is sometimes too strict, it should be more like the Japanese say of a bamboo. No, the bamboo is that you can really be more flexible. And in that sense, I fear that if the seniors don't allow the more juniors, to understand the need to be more open minded and not so strict to understand, just like there are customs, there are customs that Glinka used to say, when he when we began spreading the Dharma in other countries find a place where you're comfortable inviting your mother to assent to a course. Hmm. So, for me, it was very obvious if my mother were Swiss, and she has to go out to the toilet, like we had in Cuba, in the bushes. She would be really very uncomfortable. But if my mother is Cuban, and in the bushes, there's a hole. And there's a sign women only, she would go sit on a hole. And they call it props, toilet props, because it makes up that noise. Right? So I think he knew very well the situation. And although he didn't know where Latin America maybe was in the map, he did have information from the students or was open enough to find out Huh, so as to give us a little flexibility, right? And this, I think, is maybe now because they want to follow the rules in some areas.

Host  54:54

not working properly, I don't know right. But this is also just a feature of any movement that grows from being a flexible teacher student relationship into something that has to be more and more people want benefit, what are you going to do? There has to be something codified. But as soon as it gets codified, then you run into these other issues. But I'm also curious, you said that there were situations that he responded to at the time that were very much a result of the time and place in context, which now those certain decisions that he made have been carried over into a wider ranging kind of administrative form. And correct me if I'm, if I'm misinterpreting that, but I'm wondering if there's some examples you could give of of that.

Daniel Mayer  55:38

I think one of the examples is, as far as comfort is concerned, I am sure that the centers in Europe are built with a demand that is not applicable for potential future centers in Africa, in Latin America. So in that sense, I think it's wonderful for Europeans to have what they're used to. But it should not mean that the poor people in South America or even in Africa, or in other poorer countries, Myanmar is also a poor country that Dharma is so strong that they don't care too. Not to give all their money so that their center has more than their own home. But most people would say, No, no, first comes my home, and then the center. Right. So in that sense, I think yes, we I just heard that their budget for a potential center in Austria is exorbitant compared to the type of country that put the population and availability of money. So I think if they look The maps that you know how going ca started and we would go we would buy buckets every when we would go to get fully to the courses and we would leave the buckets and those same buckets lasted until the next year when we came aboard new bucket.

Host  57:17

Buckets for shower. Yes, yes,

Daniel Mayer  57:20

yes. And there were the bathrooms where they were all it was just a room and underneath was WC the bathroom and above was a shower. So going to make sure that the sewage from the WC goes to where there is water so that the animals and the microbes don't die. Whereas the water from the shower doesn't matter. It has soap and there there is no there is no living being. This type of consideration is free. Fantastic. So the respect of life and but we didn't mind going with our bucket of water into the shower. But nowadays, oh, there's not enough pressure.

Host  58:14

Right. So there's a focus or an intention to luxury and comfort. Yeah.

Daniel Mayer  58:19

Sometimes excessive, I think.

Host  58:22

Right? And contrasting that looser, less structured course experience from before with more of the formal administration and protocol of meditation centers today. And having experienced both, what would you say are the respective advantages of each style.

Daniel Mayer  58:38

The generations have changed. We are living now in with Internet with immediately. So, immediate gratification of any information. You don't even need to go to school anymore. You just can find out whatever you need to know. And I remember in my profession, some patient came to see me. And they knew more of their disease than I. And I was supposed to be their doctor. So it was almost it was no longer embarrassing because I knew where the information came from. But when you look at it globally, it doesn't really matter because you see the body as a whole and not the, in the symptom or the little part of it. But yes, I think that it's very, it's, it's very difficult to compare them with now. And I hope that the newer generations continue to satisfy their needs and understand what are their real needs, not their apparent needs. It's a bit like a friend of mine, told me not long ago, how things are blown up. Certain things are blown up in comparison They're from a different perspective. Mm hmm. So in that sense,

Host  1:00:05

sure, sure. Are there from your course experience back in the early days of India and kind of seen that that more flexible kind of going with the flow experimental attitude and seeing the way that the cost structures are now do you think there? Is there something from those earlier days? Some aspect that you think has been lost or minimized or

Daniel Mayer  1:00:26

no, I think you need it, you need what you have now. And in those days, like oncology said, you couldn't have had it because it was surely been impossible. Yeah. As far as for me, as long as those who are in a role of guiding, of inspiring and of reading, as long as they meditate, then things will clear up and wash away and they will really act according to the real But if those people that are leading hose, so called appointed teacher or not necessarily he both appointed supervisors, right appointed managers, because a manager in the courses like a secretary, and that's she knows more than the boss. Sure, yeah. And a secretary can really make things happen. And in that sense, a manager or somebody in those can that responsibility if as long as they all meditate, and then things will flow. Okay. Is there

Host  1:01:36

any concern of that?

Daniel Mayer  1:01:38

Wow. Well, I don't know about others, but I know that for me, internet takes up so much time, but I prefer not to read them. So I have hundreds of emails unread because I have to be very selective. Sure. So if I teach Or a manager feels the responsibility is to be informed and then act instead of letting yourself be guided by your own feelings and instinct and let things fall into place. Then Yes, I, the day might not be long enough.

Host  1:02:19

Right? So you're talking about a balance between proper information and informing yourself with having the meditative process inside.

Daniel Mayer  1:02:29

self knowledge, trusting that your intuition is okay and letting things happen. Right.

Host  1:02:34

So that's a difficult balance that especially in the modern age, people have to figure out. Yeah, I say, going back to your years in Burma when you first arrived, you, you came in 1980 was it?

Daniel Mayer  1:02:48

Yes, yes to Burma was exactly between December 79 and January February 1980.

Host  1:02:55

Right and you haven't been back since until

Daniel Mayer  1:02:58

today. not been back. Since Day before yesterday for any reason, I have no idea. But I think about it. Today, tonight's meditation I think why it took me so long. But I do remember I do remember that it's not the first time that I let so much time and so much space between two very important episodes in my life. I graduated from high school. And for maybe 10 years, I dreamt repetitiously that I went back to school. But the circumstances were not there as a son of an owner and isn't that knowing money and whatever. So it took all those years to again, go back and learn something. So in that sense, I think it's a repetition. Why did it take me so long to go to a place like Burma Why did it take so long to go back to school and study, Rajesh and when I became when I have just studied, I went to Japan to learn to practice another tool in my profession which was acupuncture. And I spent I was as a trip I went as a trainee in the home of a acupuncturist, Brittany. I think he's American morn married to a Japanese. Ron Kelly, I think was his name. And he moved to later to the UK. And I could leave at his home. And there were certain conditions almost like a month, and I stayed at his home and I went down to his clinic where he had several beds. And for the first week, my tears were falling. And I was standing behind him. I don't know that's interesting. For anybody, but anyway, my tears were falling. Because I felt

1:05:04

I found this profession, or acupuncture, huh?

Daniel Mayer  1:05:08

So a bit like, that's why I didn't maybe. Sure, sure now I'm so happy to be here and tomorrow I'm sitting. No, tonight I'm sitting aside. Yeah.

Host  1:05:18

We also appreciate you making time for this. But when you came to Burma, what were the circumstances that brought you was it going to encourage No, no, no,

Daniel Mayer  1:05:26

the only thing is the opportunity to be where you knew there was a source. Mm hmm. Because we knew that say as you go back in was a teacher of going. And we knew that say args who bekins teacher was saya techy, and we knew that it all came from Eddie cru. And this lineage was, we knew it. We didn't have to find out and the fact that we can also be monks Without having to renounce to what we have so that was an invitation from IMC that somehow reached in India. You can come You can stay at the center didn't reach India, it reached the West. I was living in Pisces, okay. Everybody that had sat courses or was sitting courses with going out they were all together, Coleman and everything. And they all knew me and I knew them because I I translated the 10 day discourses into Spanish in 1979. Uh huh. And they the translation was so bad that the Spaniard say Oh, wait a minute, we have to do it again. Yeah. And so and Coleman had given me because they were using going cuz material in those days, huh? And the spaniel said, no, please. Now we cannot wait anymore. And they read retranslate I use terrible words. I bought a very big, expensive dictionary thinking that that was the right way to do it. And I used for mind, spirit, which is spirit, spirit and might not even correlate. Right, right, right.

Host  1:07:10

Yeah. So then that was redone another time, many times. Yeah. And concerning your ordination, what was that experience? Like? What was it like to wear the robes for that period?

1:07:19

Hmm.

Daniel Mayer  1:07:20

So the first thing that surprised me was they had to shave our head. Not that I was so proud of my little hair, but it really was mine, and they were taking it away. Then, as far as clothes is concerned, it wasn't a big deal because we were all men. There were no women. But they were the wives of the those that were or the friends at friends that were accompanying them. And so they showed me how to wear the ropes. And then we were all in a big room. And then I saw this one man who A friend and he, his wife was next to him. And he had already put on his robe and he was pulling his underwear down and put lifted on the floor. And she has his wife was, took his underwear and walked away. And that surprised me very much. It really was. It made an impact to where the rules in themselves gave me a feeling of protection. But not a feeling of being a Buddhist. I'm sure I wore underwear. Yeah.

Host  1:08:47

Did that have an impact on your practice or your

Daniel Mayer  1:08:49

the underwear To tell you the truth, I don't think the emphasis was so much on the practice.

Host  1:09:07

During your monkey do you mean? Yes,

Daniel Mayer  1:09:08

yes, the emphasis was much more on letting us know about them. Right. And Mother syama was really most very concerned that we enjoyed our meals. Mm hmm. They were very conscientious of the fact that on Sundays, people from town were coming, and they would see us we were all foreigners, and we represented the dumb Buddha. I don't remember really. Being very inspired by the Gucci team would read from the different you know, they're different books, the Tibetan putana tipitaka. The teepee targets are three different books. And I had already read the Dhamma pilot So it's not that it was all so different reading it was very different to hearing going cuz discourses. Sure, sure this Glinka talks out of his out of life. And the books were talking in a very repetitive way about shoulds insurance and the something that was much more elevated than where at least I was

Host  1:10:27

and did say my not give discourses know,

Daniel Mayer  1:10:29

I was only cheating. Right. But as I was always there,

Host  1:10:35

right, and this act of ordaining Is this something you would recommend to meditators who wanted to become much more serious today?

1:10:43

Wow.

Daniel Mayer  1:10:46

You see, it's a very individual thing. If they want to become religious, I would say don't do it that in that way, going good. You always felt that the world had not yet mature into supporting the Sangha, which is a quarter of monks. It will happen, it will come, but it's not yet there. And if individuals feel that this will put them closer to enlightenment, I would say don't. Because nobody knows what is enlightenment anyway. So if they really want to discipline themselves, they don't have to become monks for that. You don't need the label, right. And today, I can say, in so many years that I have been practicing Vipassana, I have really, without being a monk, been able to observe my cravings and developments on desires in the way that they don't bother me anymore. So if I really before if there was I was does want to Sweets, cakes or cheese or things like that. Nowadays I can do without, but I could also enjoy having it. And so in that sense that type those sensations that used to overpower me and take me away now without having been a monk, but having continued the meditation have really without suppressing them and without denying them. I still and also by coincidence in business, it's very difficult in certain countries and certain professions not to maintain your sealer, your morality, and you have to either bribe or give something different to what you say you're giving and, or try to overpower somebody else who also has the same right like you have. So that was the first thing that I decided I don't want to do any was I don't want to go back to business because it's very difficult. So in that sense if somebody feels they cannot live in society unless they live in a monastery, it's different, right? But if you can live as a lay person, I would recommend that for the time being

Host  1:13:23

right, for what role would monastics have in the passionate structure today as taught by sn Goenka? Is Is it recommended that this is more of a les tradition or if there is someone who wants to be a monastic and wants to live as a monk but but continue with courses and long courses and other kinds of service?

Daniel Mayer  1:13:45

I think link is very clear. His approach is for laypeople. Okay. He has all respect to the monastic world. He always tries to take advance entertain, give Dharma Sangha, Sangha Donna. It's called Sangha is the order of monks and diners generosity. So you can see videos of him giving food to monks. Sure. I've seen it

Host  1:14:14

myself in at his family home before.

Daniel Mayer  1:14:17

Exactly. So definitely, but for him, the most important thing is the way his approaches towards laypeople.

1:14:24

Right. Right. Right.

Host  1:14:27

So you you're presently in charge of Africa, the whole DOM is

Daniel Mayer  1:14:32

okay. Fortunately, I'm out of it. And that's why I didn't even post in my in my email address that I won't return any emails for the next seven days.

Host  1:14:44

All right, right. I believe you were initially played a central role in opening up a lot of the Dhamma courses that came to Latin America. Is that correct? and South America, right?

Daniel Mayer  1:14:54

Yes, correct. Every country in South and Central America has headquarters.

Host  1:15:01

We have many, many centers with 30 day courses and 20 day courses. And Arthur Nichols and myself, both of us, we really were able to be instrumental in letting those people who were mature in Dharma, take them. Right. And I'm curious in the sense that you your early experiences in courses were at these non centers that were more, you know, less controlled, more wild. And in, it sounds like in a lot of your teaching and conducting career, you've gone in and establish courses similarly to what was happening in India, in grounds that had never really hosted something like that before. So operating under far less than the optimal circumstances and having to deal with with, you know, unpredictable and confusing situations that might come. So I wonder if, if they're, if you've sensed a similarity between those early days in India and all over Africa and South and Latin America, the diversity and unpredictability of situations that you've brought these courses into.

Daniel Mayer  1:16:07

I think there is a magic in the courses, which is independent from those people who are helping organize them. What was very clear is that the first course in 1994 in Venezuela, attracted several people. Before 1994, john Coleman came to South America and organized a 10 day course, with me gated Vegas. And it never followed. There was never a follow up after that. But in the first course, that the going tradition conducted by Arthur Nichols had in Venezuela, people from many other Latin American countries came so they Were Brazilians. They were Argentinians. And they came and they then we had a course in Brazil and Argentina. And then people from Chile were in that course. And they said, Oh, we wanted in Chile. And so we went to Chile. And then from Chile, some people from Bolivia. So it was like a chain reaction. I always call it like bowling. If you know how to play bowling and the right ball, the right stick falls, the others follow, right. I think what happened with Guru Ji was very, a bit different in the sense that the people were admiring going, and they were devoted to going and they did it foregoing. Whereas the people in Latin America who set the courses, they had an experience that was so overwhelming and so convincing, that the experience themselves, make them want to follow up and continue And bring it back. And I remember Arthur Nichols once telling me, it's so interesting that these students from neighboring countries, they don't give any donation. But they go to their country and they organize the course. Right? Which in a certain way, from a certain point of view, you can say, wait a minute, we paid so much money for this course. It would cost us wheat. And here, they don't, they took it, but they don't contribute. But they contributed much more by bringing the demand Sure. So that since it was different to India,

Host  1:18:37

right, right. People give in different ways. And, and it's also interesting this this been a podcast that is, is talking about me and more specifically, I think what's interesting for people to consider are those kind of elements within the core structure that are coming from Burma you know, things that one might not even think of the gongs as far as I understand the gong Of every passionate course in the world at any place our Burmese gongs I've carried out I've helped different centers and non centers organize you know buying shipping and milling gongs, but that's you know that that's that's a staple that comes here from Myanmar cultural element there was actually earlier in Myanmar much earlier when I was one in my life here. I gave a talk on meditators around the world being grateful to the country kind of wanting to tell the people you know, these are things about your country that's traveled that you might not know. The Gong was one example I gave Little did I know there was a reporter sitting in the audience who wrote an article about me and the talking to me and my newspaper all centered about the gong and you have actually an artist drew a picture of a hairy foreigner sitting with a big Gong behind him. You know, sharing and celebrating that look, this Burmese Gong has been around the world. Of course, there's other elements to there's the you know, the pagoda which is now coming to

Daniel Mayer  1:19:59

you know, to be built at a lot of centers, you know, permanent places, there's the knowledge about the lineage of teachers and kind of Burmese history that that is also being shared. And I wonder in your experience, what it's like to be in these places that when you talk about the spread of, of spiritual teachings, or or other things around the world, you especially in Africa and South America have been to places and reach people, that not to put too dramatic of a point on it, but that in human history, the Buddhist teachings have rarely reached some of the pockets which you've taken them to. And that's a really exciting thing and not just taking these Buddhist teachings of liberation, but also some of these elements of of Burmese culture that one might not even realize, if you don't know Burmese culture and Burmese Buddhist culture intrinsically that you know, oh, this is that this element is actually from here. So I'm curious about that experience as well. For instance, very important for us is Like following the relics of the Buddha, that you in Burma have in the sweet Pagoda, and going he put the relics also at the global pagoda. We now have not the relics of the Buddha, but we put crystals and crystals are supposed to attract also. So, again this comes from Burma hmm we just don't have the relics, but we have the crystals. And in Brazil crystals are also very valuable. And they attracted so much. They, some of the historians say that you can put in a crystal the whole history of a civilization. Right. So, Burma has contributed very much. I have been through other people that I have met in contact with Vietnamese people and the Vietnamese master and who had quite an important gathering around him of Both people who have migrated and lived in America and because he was also a patient and I had a very close connection with him. And when he heard that I was doing that technique given by Lady Sai Otto. He said no, he is my teacher. His technique is totally different. I don't want to confuse people in your groups or in your podcasts. So I won't go into details of what he was teaching and this and that, but he was a like a spiritual teacher for that group of Vietnamese, which was International. For them they were followers of Lady Sajjad right now he never heard of saya he he never heard of EU backing. But yes, ladies. So Burma has always been in many circles. Amongst the M agrees in other countries and among locals and other countries. Very important so it's definitely one of the mothers of the

Host  1:23:04

year. And it's interesting because you think about how close the country has been and I think this kind of not knowing this or knowing this information, it gives you a deeper appreciation of despite Yes, despite some of the closed aspects of the country, this is not to say this profound influence, you know, the highest aspect in terms of spiritual teachings and then in terms of the some smaller things just like gongs or lunges or knowledge that it also provides. So just the last I don't

Daniel Mayer  1:23:33

know if I can agree with lumbees because one of the things that they told me in Texas is Be sure not to wear alone.

Host  1:23:43

I've been told that there do I think, I've been told that as a as a student, I can wear what I like, but as a server or something else, I have to be a little careful of what I represent. Right. Um, so a last question I understand from your talk you Time with obviously with glenkinchie and Moto G with john Coleman with Robert hover with Sam with 10. I'm curious about your personal experience with some of these people about how they were how they were different about the the personalities that you experienced who they were as teachers, as peoples as friends.

Daniel Mayer  1:24:20

I think we owe them so much. That to talk about that would be disrespectful. I think that there is only gratitude and appreciation. But definitely there was an enormous difference between the approach of a john Coleman, who was your buddy, really very American. Also very open mind. And he had no qualms in saying exactly what came into his mind

Host  1:24:54

right. Now for me, former CIA guy,

Daniel Mayer  1:24:56

the I remember one day and the course that he was conducting. It was the past day and he said, Well, I'm sorry, I just got a call from the School of my children. Children are having a problem. So I have to go to their school, talk to the director or headmaster or something, and then he came back. Hmm. This would be inconceivable relevance. Also, I sat with john Coleman in Japan. And it was it was so informal, was dumb. With Mother syama. Definitely. She had a very selective way of approaching two students. And I think the selection happened because she was her through her concentration. She was able to see where certain people stood in dumb. A bit like some people can identify money. And I remember my mother telling me that she went to this Once you took a flight somewhere and this guy who was carrying her luggage, took her directly to first class, and she asked, How come he said, Well, we can see that you're a first class passenger. And she was simple clothes was nothing. So, yes, there's a language that mothers hi Emma could read in other people. And maybe that's why she ignored me. And Robert hover. I was, I always try to meet these people. So while I was working in Los Angeles, California, I had a patient and I sent him I said, No, I cannot help you. But you have to go and see Mr. Hover in San Diego he might have the solution because Mr. Hover was also working as a psychologist. And so he went to San Diego to see Mr. Hover as a A patient and then he came back to report everything, the dog so and then Mr. hava came to LA. And he contacted me and I met him. And our meter was more professional, not dumb. And then he explained a bit that he never charges people money, although he is a professional. And so, such such track transparency, you know, and Ruth Dennison, she was such a sweet lady. He was like a mother to everybody knows he was very spontaneous. And so you would never think she's German in that sense. But she was also more tiny. And like, typical of people who have no inferiority complex or superiority complex, it could be the same and who are very natural she saw me because I had come from Tibetans Maha Yama in a pub. And I still had this string, which actually was never put by alarma. Because, again, my karma was that when the initiation day or the initiation last day, I didn't know there was initiation, so I left. And then when I came back, they told me Oh, you missed the initiation. But don't worry, I'll put your string so this other friend put the string and Ruth Dennison took her says, Daniel, you're no student now. You can't wait a string, right? So she took a scissor cut it out in the airport. And so these type of people who don't meet on the street or no? Yeah. So there's very something very special. I remember even crew Krishna Murthy. I didn't know what to tell him but I needed to tell him something. I was living there in his house and, and so I went in, I said, I've read your books in Spanish. The translation is very well done. Hmm. Any smite? I don't Know that he really cares if the translation is done or not? Well, somehow or other in that sense, and I think what you're doing also with letting the world know through this new technology, of what Dhamma really offers, and there's no label, there is no age, there is no sex. There is only a certain trans spontaneous transparency. A friend of mine once said, You can't know rock, you can't know right if you don't do wrong. But in Dharma, there is no wrong. It's a win win situation. And in that sense, we all wish May all beings we

Host  1:29:46

have. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Is there any last thing I didn't ask that you'd like to talk about? You said we had lunch. Yes. Well, we'll have lunch now. Let's go okay. Busy we want to present a special opportunity for donors who are committed to the life of our show. While we greatly appreciate donations of any and every size, larger donations are particularly helpful. For that reason we are encouraging donors with means to consider sponsoring a full episode for a one time donation of $350 or more. Donations in this category can include a dedication if you'd like to family members are dama friends, Adama quotation by the Buddha or meditation teacher even a short phone interview. We can include in the episode allowing your voice to be heard, or your generous donation can be anonymous should you wish to keep your name private, the choice is yours. In any case, such a generous donation would also give you the satisfaction of knowing that you enabled at least one more episode to be produced for the benefit of all the other listeners on the path. If you would like to support our mission, we welcome your contribution. You may give via patreon@patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar via paypal@paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar or by credit card by going to Insight myanmar.org slash donation in all cases, that's Insight Myanmar one word i en si gh t. m YA and M a r. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation, please feel free to get in touch with us. You may want to reflect a little more deeply on some of the themes explored in the last discussion, following every interview, my friend Zack Kessler and I take some time to process the depth of what was said. Zach has been to me and more on numerous occasions and spent three years here as a forest monk. And so we hope that our talk can add depth and context to the interview. He's now living in rural Thailand, and I'll just make a quick call on Skype to connect with him now. Hey, Zack, are you there? Yeah, I'm here. Yeah, how are you going anymore? Baby elephants this week.

Zach  1:32:34

No, teenagers are babies. Yeah, nothing. Nothing quite so exciting. We did get another visit but I didn't see them.

Host  1:32:42

Well, I guess that's a good thing. Then.

Zach  1:32:44

How about on your end?

Host  1:32:46

Um, on my end, not much. It's been a pretty calm week. The the air pollution is really no fun here trying to figure out what to do with that but the weather is heating up just a little bit day by day as we're moving Slowly into the hot season here.

Zach  1:33:03

This is supposed to be cool season here, but it's actually pretty hot in the daytime already, unfortunately.

Host  1:33:10

Yeah, yeah. So so it goes living in this part of the world. Great. So about the the interview that we just heard a lot of really good stuff in there, you know, perhaps not surprisingly, Krishna mirchi is a theme that runs we just listened to Alan Clements last week. And Alan Clements big turning point was finding a mahasi book and a Palm Beach, Florida bookshop here it's a Krishna Murthy book in a Paris bookshop, which, which plays a big role in, in Daniel's life. And, and I also noticed, you know, we've had three of the four podcasts we've done so far have been foreigners and all three foreigners have just expressed this sense of how welcomed they felt in Myanmar from the very first time they've come just this real sense of welcoming that even being international travelers they haven't necessarily felt in other places.

Zach  1:33:58

Yes, I think it's interesting. Just Just how people come to the the tama in general and how, how it's just based on on different conditions and running into a book here and talking to a person there could be just so many ways that we come in. And so, one one little difference here and there can totally change the trajectory of, of what happens.

Host  1:34:23

Yeah, it's interesting you say that because that's actually where I wanted to go with with one of my next points. Um, my ears really perked up when I was hearing Daniel talk about his timeline because I had this feeling that as he was describing his years in Paris that might have intersected with my mom's ears in Paris when she was there was a very formative time in her life. She was a member of the hippie generation and was an expat there. And those were really formative years of her character building and the friends that she made the community she made living abroad, and I checked in with her and actually it wasn't just somewhat in the same ballpark. It was exact. She was exhausted. They're from 1972 until a few years following So, that was a, you know, confirm that a bit after the interview and that kind of set my mind spinning of of hearing that all the stories I was hearing from Daniel were intersecting with the stories I had heard growing up about my mom's life and community in Paris as well. So that was kind of neat. It was interesting to think of these two expats living living in Paris at the same time and thinking that there could have been some mutual friends or when you're living in a in the same place, and it's a small community. There's definitely some intersections that happened. What was interesting was that when, you know Daniel describes what brought him to Nepal and it was the Krishna mercury book definitely sparked a spiritual interest, but then it was that girl who had done the Tibetan course and he wanted to go try that. So where Daniel went east, my mom and her crowd ended up going south to Morocco in Sub Saharan Africa. And she had mentioned when I talked to her about this interview and check in with her. She's like, yeah, you know, I knew people in my community, people I was familiar with, we're making that trip east. We just once it got kind of cool, and the weather got kind of kind of cold. And we thought to warm up, and we thought South was the place to go. And so that that was just kind of an interesting thing to think about of you. You had mentioned how one book in an opportune place can change so much as we saw with the mahasi book doing this or another book doing that. And just meeting the right person in the right place sets you on a course of events, where you go east instead of South and then everything that happens after that, can can cause a series of dynamic changes as a result.

Zach  1:36:48

Yeah, it's amazing what strikes me immediately if the weather had been different, had been different, a different season that when they decided to go your mom could have easily been swept to the east and her whole life wouldn't be different. Right? Sure. And I probably wouldn't be here.

Host  1:37:04

So, you know, as you know, so I have a lot to be thankful for, as it was, you know, when I was talking to my mom about this, she was she was mentioning that, yeah, you know, I would have really liked to have done a course then it would have been really good for my life to have done at that young age. Eventually, as you know, because, you know, we we took, served and sat courses together in Colorado where my my mom was, as well and your mom has also been involved. She definitely found her way there. So she she got there eventually through having to have a son first who had to go to Asia and finding himself and then bring it back to her. So everything everything comes around. But it's also just an interesting thing to think about, you know, here's someone who was in was very liberal minded and a progressive crowd open to these kind of experiences to wanting to to learn more about herself and change in these positive ways. So very, very receptive to these kinds of teachings. genes and, and practice and yet and and was literally in the same time and the same place as this other person who through another series of events went and you know one one thing boom his whole life has been just one dedication of Dhamma service so it's just kind of interesting how how much we're affected by these conditions even if we have a lot of the the building blocks to to be receptive towards a certain practice or thing that whether it's positive or negative and how and how much the the conditions of the time can affect whether you go left or right and then everything that follows

Zach  1:38:39

Yeah, that's almost it's almost too much for the mind to hold all the you know, there are some people believe in parallel universes where all of those possibilities all happen at the same time. But that's, that's another topic for another day. Perhaps.

Host  1:38:55

The final thought in this that I just found interesting is just kind of what we know about communities. General at that time, in the 1970s, there was a lot of the world that wasn't open, you know, a lot of China and the former Soviet Union, places that you just couldn't meet people from and they didn't travel. So in some ways it was the world was much smaller. Although today we have instant messaging, and we can be in touch with anyone at any time, even people that we don't know. My mom contrast her time in, in Paris, as you know, she made I think, one call home the whole time she was away. And when there was, of course, no email or anything, when they wanted to receive mail, their families would just send letters to general delivery at various post offices throughout Europe. So in some ways, you think of us being better connected today because of, of what technology is doing and making the world smaller. And yet there there's also this alienation that even with all these connections, that that there's not that sense of community and belonging, and that really stands out when I talk to my mom or to Daniel People that have that, that were in this early meditative movement, people that were in the hippie movement, even, you do hear a lot about this sense of community that they felt at the time. And, and that is interesting to reflect on that that sense of community they had even though our connection today is maybe 100 times beyond that, but we don't feel that same community going through life at times.

Zach  1:40:23

Yeah, that better just reminds me of traveling, I kind of cut the tail end of that same period where, you know, you could call home or you get the posters start general delivery, like you're talking about, there was a sense of, it was more conducive to serendipitous travel, where you just kind of let things happen. And so you let that conditionality unfold and so I what I noticed with our connectivity, now there's a sense of control in it. It of course, that's just a different condition, right? But it has different outcomes with that small world and when we think the world smaller now because of the connectivity but But the smallest of that world was actually happening through serendipity and running randomly into people. And it was kind of a magical type of small world. And that is still, of course possible anytime, anywhere and yet with the possibility to do otherwise, to kind of control and to plan. That doesn't seem to happen as much. Mm hmm. I think I think I think there's a there's a bit of a loss in that somewhere. So anyways, that's just me. waxing, romantically about days gone by.

Host  1:41:35

easy to fall into definitely easy to fall into the world is changing fast.

Zach  1:41:40

Right? Well, I had some I had some thoughts on the talk as well. Mostly around Daniel talking about his time as a monastic. And one thing that can be controversial is whether a monk, someone should become a monk that doesn't intend to do it for life or Some are for any other reason than doing it for life, you know, like, temporary or in his case, you know, to get a visa and then be able to meditate for longer than he would be if he was a layperson. And to be honest, my personal opinion is that Well, for one, it's very welcomed actually, in Thailand and Myanmar, for example, people will ordain just for a water festival, that seven, seven day period of time during the holidays and, and I think there's a great benefit in it. And so and I think surely for him being able to stay in Myanmar and, and meditate continuously for a month rather than just a week. It's Yeah, I think it's worthwhile. And I think I think it's a good use of the opportunity, but not everyone would agree with that. So I just want to put that out there.

Host  1:42:49

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's so many questions foreigners have about the monkhood. I remember one time I I had been in monasteries for a long time and I went to meet this British foreigner living in Myanmar didn't really know anything about Dhamma practice or whatnot, his friend from from another field. And he said, You know, I went down to I sat down to the table, we were meeting at a restaurant and he said, so Joey, you know, tell me everything about this practice that you're doing, I really want to know. And then he kind of squinted his eyes and looked at me and he said, Are you a month now? I was just baffled. I didn't know how to respond. I mean, he didn't even know that like I said, Well, look at the clothes I'm wearing. Look at my hair like no, I'm not he was living in Myanmar. But even that level of just not knowing the what we would call basic things. And for many, like the idea that you can or can't do temporary ordination. That's some that's a real question. So I think that's, that's something good to get out there.

Zach  1:43:44

Right. Daniel had mentioned it possibly even being disrespectful to the Buddha to that was more on a personal level. He said perhaps he actually wasn't truly ready yet. But, you know, I actually don't I I don't I don't think it's disrespectful to be honest, I think being disrespectful is to use the robes for something nefarious, you know, something, you know, with another intention of greed or version, you know, towards something very selfish or something like that, you know, like, you know, like becoming a monk to get a special visa just so you can live there and not and not even practice, you know, so right. I was getting into a country and then and then through monkhood and then disrobing and getting you know, to work there illegally or something like that. Sure. But to meditate for a month. Yeah, for me personally, no problem. I think it's great.

Host  1:44:42

Yeah, and I really enjoy his honest reflection of the monk code. You know, he readily admits that he he might not have been ready for it. He suggests that he might not have been might not have had the maturity necessary in order to, to wear the robes in terms of not wanting to lose his hair, being excited when requisites were given. to him by supporters, and also notes that his this friend he had john Claude was really enjoyed his time in robes and got a lot out of it. But but for Daniel, there wasn't a huge difference in observing craving and other defilements in his practice with whether he wore robes or lay clothes and underscored also that the tradition that that he's involved in that it is more of a late tradition, and I did appreciate that that honesty in terms of how it affected him.

Zach  1:45:31

Right. I agree. I appreciate the honesty and certainly from within his, within his conditions and within his experience. His what would you say? His evaluation of the whole thing not only for himself, but for others is it makes sense. I do think though that there is some pieces missing there. And partly It is because of how I think how he went into being a mark. He went in to do That retreat essentially not for a longer period of time, so to speak. And so I do think there are experiences a lot of Westerners have, or sorry, a lot of people that ordain have that, that make it very worthwhile. So his conclusion that he did conclude if I'm not mistaken, that really for people that, for example, have a hard time maintaining sila because of their work or some kind of situation like that, perhaps, you know, such a person would be better off being a monk, but otherwise he, he didn't seem to see there is any kind of strong benefit, you could get just as much out of being a person. He did say, and I agree with this part that you know, it totally depends on the person and the situation. I would just say that there's a lot more reasons that the Buddha set this field up this these conditions, that it's really like it He's set up this really rich garden is full of really fertile soil. People can can take root in, and I don't think that's necessarily the right soil for everyone. But I think there's a lot more people even today, even with all the shortcomings that might be there in the monastic system, there's still about opportunity. And I think if you enter into that garden in a different way, like his friend did, so I would, you know, I would point to his friend, john Claude, as he said, that really did take root and he was so sad when he had to disrobe. So great. I invite anyone that has the inkling has the intention and has the curiosity to give it a try.

Host  1:47:42

Well, one thing I'd ask you is because obviously you were a monk, twice you were you were dating twice, once for three years at a stretch and you put a lot of thought into where and how you wanted to be a monk. And one of the things you said just now was I don't remember the exact way You said it, but it was something about how There's different supportive environments you can go into being a monk that will have a different effect. And you highlighted that that Daniel had had had ordained to do this extended meditative experience in robes but there there are different ways to structure your your your time and your monkhood. I think I think that topic that you're getting into is something that would be very valuable for meditators thinking of ordination to know about so what briefly what would be other types of ways that you can structure among than the one that we heard about here.

Zach  1:48:37

Ah, there's so many. There's so many ways to approach it. And again, it just depends on the person. depends on the type of meditation you want the type of community you want. Are you more of an introvert or extrovert, the type of food you need. I had a friend it just he needed food that was more like what he was used to in the West as far as the way it was. and stuff. And if he didn't, he actually had physical problems. So, and all kinds of levels physical and mental we have different needs and perhaps in time we can we can let go of some of those or that shifts and changes but, you know, so there's you can, you can do summertime meditation Vipassana meditation, you can be a forest monk or you can you could live in a city as a monk. You can live in nature, like just so we all have different proclivities. There's also the teacher like what teacher Do you resonate with, you know, and what style you know, so that, that can be weird. I was just talking earlier about planning travel versus serendipitous travel, your monastic life can be exactly the same. You can plan it as much as you want. And there's a lot of options out there for how to approach that small monastery, big monastery, scholastic monastery or Perry it potty potty, you know, like there's a variety or you can just kind of step into the stream. And see what arises to me. So

Host  1:50:06

right yeah, absolutely. And sounds like your your talk there was getting you had some competition with with the backyard rooster. But um, yeah, I mean that also that's a whole other topic a whole other long discussion you could have and you know we got into that briefly with c'est la Pia dossey, where we had mentioned that that some meditators do look at the idea of monasticism is just a meditation course for the rest of your life every day, which you know, it's very much not, but to move the conversation along with limited time. A another topic that that struck me was just hearing about the development of these teachings over time in a different context. This is this is a theme we've talked about a lot ourselves over the years and one that I'm quite fascinated in. He gives Daniel gives a great background and color commentary to description. To, to what it was like as going Gigi was was first setting these up and what what it felt like to be a student, you know, funny, colorful anecdotes and also talking about protocols. You know, for example, one of the things that struck me was he was mentioning the story about how the dama Hall seating was first come first serve. That's in contrast to did it today at the passionate centers in the SN Goenka tradition, where it's assigned seating based on the number of courses that you've sat. And it's a very subtle difference that, that the seating would be arranged one way or the other. But when you're on a Silent Retreat, where you're getting to such a degree of sensitivity and awareness, these things do come to have an effect and it's interesting to see how that changed over time. If you go back even one step beyond that, in the research that we did for the meditators guidebook, we spoke to people that were familiar with, say at the GS teaching back in the day, and they described how say otha g was to actually have the new students closest to him and the old students as far in the back as possible almost like creating this Dhamma sandwich so that the new students were just enveloped in this vide these these dama vibes in all directions. So that was it. these are these are subtle things and maybe maybe there's not many other people nerding out on them like I am, but I just find it interesting to think about these, the the mindset that goes into creating the course structure and how that's changed over time and how that's been affected the course experience as a result,

Zach  1:52:34

right. Well he, what struck me is that this, this very, very experienced conductor of Goenka courses teacher, he, he he gives a lot of examples about how things were and how things are and and, and how things get codified and you know, of course, and so, in time, you know, Say the codification develops over time due to certain conditions, but he seems to be saying like almost like a warning that some of these things just developed in the moment, because of that moment, and then they're not necessarily applicable in a codified way. And that could be last that, that people, you know, developing a sense of, of, of understanding how, you know, the general guidelines and the basics and then and then trusting wisdom and intuition to to adapt to different situations like, like, like what he must be dealing with conducting courses and setting up courses in, in Africa and South America.

Host  1:53:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm sure that was a good training ground. Yeah. He talks so much about the flexibility and the openness and the curiosity that goes into Jihad about a student's background and Then with that, you know, he makes this plea for open mindedness for more established senior teachers to have at towards students or junior teachers to in this vein of how glenkinchie was flexible and and open minded and how approachable and accessible going he was himself. I mean, he describes group sittings in his very home that all these hippies I was gonna say dirty hippies but you know, maybe some of them you know, Daniel definitely wasn't a hippie, maybe some of the hippies were showering some words, I'm just playing off a stereotype there but um, he has in any case, his own home is open for people coming to just do a group sitting and then leave and that that sense of openness and inclusion and community and, and flexibility, curiosity, those those kinds of values that he's describing. In those days were very inspiring to see where it came from. And, you know, also his, his encouragement to keep these values alive even as structures become structures both in terms of protocol and also in terms of actual physical buildings and lands, even as those become more codified that these early values still have their place.

Zach  1:55:12

Right? I was actually looking at it in the sense of the choice. So you have this example of a teacher and gonca. And as it expands or and or after he's gone, there's a choice to either codify the decisions themselves, or codify the style of decision making. And and Daniel, with so much experience, seems to be strongly advocating for codifying the style, the approach of discernment in decision making, rather than quantifying decisions.

Host  1:55:50

Yeah, that's that's a good point. And he gives the examples of how I think it was going kajita told him you want to build a center that your mother can go to and If your mother is from I can't remember the examples he gives, but if your mother's from Costa Rica or from Uganda or from Austria or wherever, there's going to be different expectations for what would be comfortable in a senator.

Zach  1:56:13

I think he was referring to the type of toilet at least a hole in the bag that had the right accoutrements there that some people would be totally 100% comfortable with, and others would be mortified. So I can understand why why certain decisions get made in different places and, and different times. Right. So we haven't talked about this yet. You know, it's easy to look back in hindsight and say, Well, yeah, and even to judge sometimes, but so it's good to be relaxed on that and understanding how things arose. And you even a pretty big point about that in the interview and to just appreciate the difficulty of the situation. At the same time, you know, it's it's also the Other side of that same coin, though, is to go the opposite direction from, from judgment of those things and being so critical as to, as to making them super so sacred that you never actually reevaluate those things. And from if I understand Daniel correctly, is to have that discernment, and not to be attached to decisions and to, you know, to be able to reevaluate and move with the sermon in time in place, just like he's doing. So I think he's a great role model for what he's actually suggesting and hoping it's what he seems to be hoping for the for that tradition.

Host  1:57:36

Yeah. And because he lived through it all, he really is speaking from this direct experience. He was a direct disciple of Goenka Ji and he then he he was studying under him at a time when the courses were taking off. And then he went around the world setting these courses up helping these courses to be conducted and and the students to get these lessons and so through this web, have many decades of past experience, he's in this real prime position to be able to talk on what he witnessed and what he saw and then how it spread and expanded. And through the growth, the changes that he saw from his memories, his very clear memories of the early stages. So that was quite interesting.

Zach  1:58:21

Right? That's interesting. And a lot of it's interesting. I mean, that whole tradition is in an interesting spot with going and not being around anymore and, and which way they'll move and here we got to hear a voice of an elder giving some guidance into what he sees as valuable and what he sees are some possible dangers. So I really appreciated that that was interesting.

Host  1:58:44

Yeah, and I and the level of service that he has brought to so many people and his whole and the the presence that he brought to the interview, just the the joy the giggle the the I want to say charm, I mean charm. Might not be exactly the right the right word, maybe a natural charm that just kind of shines off. It was just an absolute pleasure to have him here personally. And I think that a lot of that that joyousness just bubbled over onto the through the voice onto the the headphones that listeners can hopefully capture as they take it in.

Zach  1:59:21

Well, that was certainly my experience.

Host  1:59:23

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. So, so great. So same time next week.

Zach  1:59:29

See you next time. Yes, absolutely.

Host  1:59:32

Okay, okay. I look forward to that one and take care and the higher temperatures on

Zach  1:59:39

China. We used to have a river to jump into next. Yeah, yeah, boy, I don't have that. Okay. Okay, okay. Let's see.

Host  2:00:04

You have been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we invite you to rate review and share our podcast every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Also, make sure to check out our website for our complete episodes including additional text videos and other information at www dot Insight myanmar.org that's one word AI n si gh t m Y a n ma r dot o RG. If you cannot find our feed on your podcast player, please let us know and we will ensure that it could be offered there in the future. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a post suggest a guest request specific questions and join in on discussions on our Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group And also welcome to join our Facebook and Instagram accounts by the same name of Insight Myanmar. If you're not on Facebook, you can also message us directly at Burma dama@gmail.com. That's BURMADHA mma@gmail.com. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that forum. We would also like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible, especially our two sound engineers, Martin combs and darnay along with Zack Kessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with editing caching that Campbell does our social media templates, and Draco's, Pandita and Andre Francoise make our sketches. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us bringing the guests who have made up the show thus far, as well as the guests themselves for agreeing to come and share. Finally, we are immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We also remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and not necessarily reflective of the host or other podcast contributors. If you find the Dhamma interviews we are sharing a value and would like to support our mission we welcome your contribution. You may give monthly donations at patreon@www.patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar, or one time donations on paypal@www.paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar. In both cases that's Insight Myanmar one word. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation, please feel free to get in touch with us.