Transcript: Episode 3: Sayalay Piyadassi
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Sayalay Piyadassi, which appeared on February 7, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
HOST: The story of getting c'est la Pia dossey. To share her background is the story of our recording studio installation. It had taken us some time to get the studio ready and I waited in anxiety throughout the process as one inspiring drama person after another pass through Yangon, sometimes through our very own home, all without being able to retain their voice before they were off to the next destination. The studio would only been set up a day or two before I happened to run into c'est la at a funeral, and she immediately agreed to come on our new show. She later commented that her own mother had passed away recently and she felt that sharing about her progress in the Dhamma for others to hear and benefit from and then sharing the accumulated merit for doing so with her departed mother was the one way that she could truly help For now, the timing was more than fortunate to make it work as well. Since c'est la does not reside in yen gone and splits her time between her monastery and the tone and the Shan state Buddhist University in town G. With periodic trips back home to Lithuania. The process of transformation is a key theme that comes about during Sally's talk, a topic that should prove helpful and thought provoking for any Yogi on the path. Sally's transformation takes several stages first into a serious Lee meditator and then into a Buddhist nun in Myanmar And finally, through a series of further transformative processes during her continued journey of renunciation, her courage and speaking so honestly about her past difficulties in robes, and about the ensuing strategies and reflections and making various adjustments along the way, provide the meditator a kind of lightness and openness that gently encourages a similar kind of examination into one's own practice. When taking on a new media project such as this Insight Myanmar podcast. There could be a desire to get these a level guests that is the biggest household names and The field which would help your show stand out and show it could book those biggest names. However, when creating the vision and the mission for our podcast project, it was really the stories of the sale a PA dossiers that we were particularly keen to air. hearing how a deeply committed meditator navigates the spiritual byways of Burmese Buddhism, largely in secluded practice is at least as valuable and instructive as speaking with any of the country's leading say it as who give Dhamma discourses on TV to an audience of millions. So while the name on this episode may not be immediately recognizable to listeners browsing their podcast directories searching for the next long form interview to play. We think the content of our talk will stay with you for some time. For now, that's enough for me. Let me pass the mic over to say La and hear more about how she got to the golden land and what she's been up to since arriving. Okay, so very happy to be talking to c'est la vie Darcy from Lithuania. I think we met in 2013 the first time Time I think
05:01
Really? Yes. Actually, this new friends they were asking how do you know Joe?
05:07
Yeah, I don't remember actually the first time we met
05:10
I think I did I meet you before your ordination. Did you come to sway him in while I was there?
05:15
Maybe maybe only briefly?
05:17
Yeah, I think I have I think I have a memory also sort of.
05:21
Yeah. So somehow our beginning of our friendship is a little unclear, but but definitely we've had a lot of contacts since then we have a lot of mutual friends. And I just met you a couple days ago unexpectedly at a funeral service and found that you were in Yangon for the following week before you go back to your university and tangy and I roped you into coming to our new studio and sitting in to share some things about your incredible background and life journey that I think will be very good listening for a lot of meditators out there.
05:56
It's a very nice space. Thank you for inviting
05:58
Yeah, yeah. So first, I'm wondering if we could just know a little bit more about your background. I know you're from Lithuania. But I know that you have good sourdough bread there from our morning conversations, but I don't know much more than that. So just you can tell a little bit about your upbringing and family and early life.
06:15
Oh, alright. So this is, for those who don't know, is somewhere in the northeast of Europe, and maybe next to Poland. It used to be a part of Soviet Union. So I was born in Soviet Union in the former Soviet Union, then it broke down. And religious wise, I was always curious to know what is there and the only option at the time as a child we had like a church, Christian church, so I was quite very active, the only active person in the whole family and I found myself as a child, I found myself somebody to baptize me and so running to church and everything, but then as I think Not only with me as it happened but like as I grew up, the pink colors faded. The faith also dissipated and after some time not going to church and one day just passing on Easter passing by and seeing many, many people I went in and I felt nothing. So I understood okay this is finished and I just was searching whatever what what is available old teenager as a photo, say teenager, but whoever would come to my small little town called clap now for on the spiritual part like I had no we had many different esoteric things going on. So whatever lectures they wore, I would go and listen and pretend that I'm older than I am, and going for some attending classes and school of Australia yoga, from St. Peter's work. Yeah, searching whatever is available. But eventually
08:02
what what was available in those days of, I don't know when what age the Soviet Union turned into Lithuania on your spiritual development path, but I wouldn't think much would be available in in the Soviet Union times. And as things started to open up, I wonder how fast Eastern spirituality came?
08:20
I think pretty quickly, I think in in the time of Soviet Union things were underground. So once that broke, broke up, the underground came on the on the surface and things became, like, more, more freely available, like when I wasn't in the university, my lab teacher gave me books of Castaneda to read Carlos Castaneda, and so all these kind of things I was translated in Lithuanian know in Russian, okay, emotion. And yeah, but eventually I after all the long searches, I set my wangka course in I think 2007 and 20 Oh, no, that was in England. Accidentally, you think accidentally I don't know. But I was very miserable, miserable at the time. And I was just searching for something. And I saw, this is here and this is available and I just go for it has changed my life into into into this form now. Yes, that was the starting point of this career
09:27
for listeners that can't see the gesture that you made when you when you said in this forum, you're you're indicating your shaven head in your robes that you're wearing them. The I I suppose connecting a line from your first going experience in England to the the non robes that you're wearing now.
09:44
Yes. So that's in short, I think
09:47
that first Glinka course was that your your introduction with Buddhism or had you had encounters with with Buddhism or if people prefer with Dhamma or with with the passion of meditation before?
09:58
Yes, I remember when that was Dealing university I had one little bit crazy friend. And I remember one time visiting her and she had many different books and everything and I saw this thick Green Book with golden letters Buddhism, and that I can borrow this, can I borrow that? And she said, sure. But that was mostly about Japanese Buddhism. And, like Zen kind of riddles, and, you know, the Eightfold noble path is actually all sounds quite mysterious, you know, the right thought, What is the korrekt? Actually may be the correct or correct what, but no explanation what is what So, I just read it, and I thought, well, that's, that's all right. But I don't really understand much and, okay, that's interesting. That's all but actually, when I was taking my first course, I could see Oh, that's what was meant actually so simple. Right here. not so simple. So, yes, basically, I think my Buddhist path started with that course.
11:06
Right? It's funny how someone similar influences reach us even from very, very diverse backgrounds because I, I also, I remember reading some DT Suzuki who is a very famous author about Japanese Buddhism and how much that influenced me, Krishnamurti. Autobiography of a Yogi and Carlos Castaneda. I read the first Carlos Castaneda before my first going through course, I was very moved by it. And I was halfway through my second Casta nada when I took my second Goenka course. And I remember finishing that course and starting to open up the book and just feeling like I'm done like this. This isn't for me anymore. Like this isn't my path. This isn't my practice. I not I don't mean to be dismissive of the author or people who follow him. But for me at that time in my life, I was so the what I was learning through the blink of a passionate technique was was so important and correct for me at that time, that these other things That had brought me there started to fade away and deprioritize something else so so it's interesting coming from very different backgrounds to see
12:09
the old, same same but different,
12:11
I guess there's a couple of questions I'd be interested in and they kind of complement each other one would be a typical day, which will give an idea of what, what activities you do and how your day looks. But then I would also be interested in pulling back and looking at like, a typical year, because a typical day at one time might be different than a typical day another time so we might be missing some aspect of your life. So maybe start with one and go with the other.
12:37
Okay, so actually, it's, it's very difficult to give any typical day or any typical year even you know, all if I think back every year was different in some way or another but say, for the first three and a half years it was only meditation.
12:58
Only meditation 2013 was when you ordained?
13:00
Yes. In 2013. And
13:03
when you say only meditation, how many hours a day? Are we talking? How many days a month? Are we talking
13:08
like everyday? Everyday, maybe 810 hours, it was full on retreats continuous. Well see not 365 days, okay, because sometimes things happen you need to go to hospital or whatever. But mostly the vast majority of days for only meditation and I was lucky to have good teachers and I, I, I found I was lucky to find the place where I could get good guidance, and where a teacher would instruct you and question you. The way that you couldn't slack in your meditation
13:48
with these mostly Burmese teachers. Was this all in Myanmar? Yeah, but so exclusively Burmese teachers,
13:53
the only Burmese teachers, but speaking in English, I had only for three months. I stayed in a monastery, where Sometimes I would have interviewed with a translator and I didn't like that. I really prefer to have to have an interview in the language directly with a teacher. So that that made me to try to learn Burmese. But even now, it's enough only to tell the taxis to where to go or, you know, these kind of things. But for the meditation interview, I still would need a support for massage if it's in Burma. So I tried to find an English speaking teacher. So yeah, I was quite lucky. But after three and a half years of intense meditation, really my body failed. And I think one thing now was the body the health condition, but it surely was also connected with the mind condition because I also was pushing myself so much, which is quite natural become we want to be ordained we want to end I sincerely believe I still sincerely believe it is possible to make an of suffering in this very life. So in the beginning with all the enthusiasm you put so much energy and effort and you think by the more energy and effort you will put the, the sooner you will get there. So I was pushing myself a lot. Sometimes my mind would blame the teacher also because the teacher was trying to help you actually and push you also up and help you to, to move further. But I had to go back to Europe myself to see that actually, it wasn't a teacher who was pushing me.
15:32
It was my own mind. And how are you pushing yourself? What form did that take? Just
15:38
I think slight mental tension or maybe blaming oneself or dissatisfaction with the one's present condition in meditation say
15:47
so it was more like, like a mental attitude than like an extreme physical effort. Yes,
15:52
yes, definitely. Interesting. All right, right. Not that that was
15:56
I don't know, trying to exhaust my body already. I think not mentally, mentally, of course. But at that time, I wouldn't admit it. But the thing is what happened I, I felt very ill, to the extent that I couldn't digest the food anymore. And my teacher advised me to go back to Europe and to get myself back in the shape
16:20
in the form that
16:22
that I could meditate again. So, I went out for the of the country for one half year and I could digest whatever I have ingested in this three and a half years. It was wonderful experience and
16:35
when you say you can digest you mean conceptually, you digested teachings are
16:40
here physically, because because in the monastery where we're staying, we get the teachings, so densely packed teachings and the teacher is trying to squeeze in you as much as possible in the shortest possible time. That is no physically even or mentally time to actually to absorb it and to understand what is what was This happening. So when I went back to Europa, I put myself in the conditions where I had the space and time to reflect, to practice slowly and to see okay, and to apply whatever I have learned and see the beauty of the teachings out of the cultural context of Buddhism. You know, when I was leaving the country I was saying, okay, no, I'm not coming back and listen to me more. Yes, I will come back only when I feel like okay, I want to go back. And yes, one half years later, one half year later, I felt like Alright, now I really want to go back and
17:33
you're in robes in your
17:34
Yes, yes, of course. And, and then and then I was thinking one monitor meditating and then at that time, I was both meditating and studying more meditating but as a time, say resting time was studying, especially a better mind because me and my so is an epidemic. country is not just we pass in our countries, I beat them our country, and I had an excellent teacher. could explain or be them very clearly, and has a very good methodology and so we're just taking an advantage of that and, and then I was called to one university to join one university, my former poly teacher, from whom I learned in India when I still want to label my grandpa student. So that teacher joined a you know, newly established University in town, and he wrote me an email Why don't take a photo right? If a teacher is calling have to go.
18:33
So now I'm studying
18:36
Pali Sanskrit, rockery, academical Buddhist studies, these kind of things. So now my focus has shifted from meditation into study. So have intense, three intense semesters for nine weeks, and then between them I can do what I like I want to meditate. I can meditate. I want to study more, I can study more. It's all optimism. quite flexible. A lot of freedom,
19:01
right? So to go back and kind of track your, your spiritual journey and your, your, your path from ordination. So you you came to me and Mar as a lay woman primarily going to meditator Is that correct? Yes. Yeah. And then and then. And then some somehow, when you were here, did you have the plan in your mind to ordain when you came as a woman? Or did that happen all of a sudden?
19:26
No, I did. When I was leaving, I told myself when I was about to leave, I said, together with my mother, and I said, Mom, you know, it may happen. And I say, you know, maybe for a long time of a short time, I don't know. But this may happen this May, or maybe it will not happen. I don't know what the conditions will be. So that was in my mind, but I didn't know until I came. I didn't know will there be conditions will there be a place with a teacher? Or will there not be conditions? So I just came like with an open mind with a meditation visa and with an open mind.
19:58
Do you recall the first time you Have you heard about the possibility of monasticism because this is something that in our cultures doesn't really exist as a functioning part of our society? So I'm wondering so for Westerners, it's often very, the very concept of what it means to be a monastic is something that is reverberates quite, quite differently where we have a vacuum of that field and in our country so I'm wondering since you've chosen that vocation, do you remember the first time you came in contact with the idea that this was even something possible?
20:31
I think I have heard about some nuns when well used to before. Before before coming to me on my I stayed in Glencoe center in UK for nearly a year. And you know, when you when you stay long enough, you hear stories of people so there are some, the nuns who like from UK, Vardanian Burma, and well now in other places, whatever they also their path is developing So you hear that? Yes, this is possible. So I think I just heard while staying in the meditation center that nothing concrete, you know, how would it go? You know, you don't have any idea. But when you have an open mind to just go and see.
21:16
So how did the idea start to take hold on you,
21:18
the thing is that the whole, my, my, my life increasingly was turning around meditation. And I mostly I was either either sitting a course, or surfing course and from time to time just working a little bit just so that I can see the course or serve a course. So mostly I was involved in that and working just on the site. And then I thought, you know, maybe I can do full time where do I have to go up and down, up and down, you go and meditate and then you know, you go out again, and it's kind of swinging back and forth. I just thought maybe I just want to immerse myself fully. Right,
21:59
right. So then when you when you came to me, Mr. Howe, how did as you started getting closer to that ordination? What what was what was the mental process and that that attraction?
22:10
Oh, very easy actually very simple one thing. First I went to after after sitting a long cord skia I went to my first monastery to which I went was shewill mean, the choice was very simple, actually, my friend chose for me, she said, You know, I'm going, I ordained together with another friend. And at that time, she went to some retreat and she said, while I'm in retreat, you better go there. And you wait for me I will come and pick you up and then we see what we are doing. And she said, she actually said me, you know this, this same is going same. What is more or less same? So no problem. You just go there and wait for me. So I sincerely believing It's same as going. I just went and when there have to understand Oh, they give me books you have to read before you meditate. How to meditate. Okay, right. So I'm reading Oh, that's not Completely same, it's a little bit something called, okay, I'm here. I'm already here. So and there, there were many Westerners or just foreigners who have a lot of already have a lot of experience of being to different places. And it's not a noble silence center. So people do talk and there is a lot of exchange of information. And on the same day when I arrived there, we arrived there with another two people, one went to one meditation center, and another one. He was on his way to peroxide orgy who was leading a retreat in Pennsylvania at the time. And he was an all student fees, and I interviewed him for a couple of hours about what what does he teach? How is it what about the meditation and so he sounded very, very inspiring. And then when that friend came out of the retreat, I don't remember whether she called me or she just came and she told me, you know, I've been to being olivine to that center. I answered, oh, gee, if he will or Venus and he said, Yes. So shall we go? That was that.
24:04
So you were attained by powerg? Yes.
24:07
Yeah. Okay. Well, he hear things freely anybody who come, here he is he, he encourages everybody who comes, it encourages even you don't want to encourage this 13.
24:19
So one thing that's interesting just to stop and reflect on the last couple minutes of what you've been sharing is, you've just kind of freely thrown around the names of a lot of very venerated, say, a dozen different meditation centers and different traditions. For those that are familiar with me and Mar and the practice here, they can probably follow along pretty easily for those that have never been or have just a vague understanding. These are probably probably names that are just whizzing by different warp speeds. So now is not the time to go into all the different histories and traditions of the SE it does. But I'm wondering, I think it's interesting to take this moment to just reflect on what this means about being in Myanmar where there's all this activity and all This, all this diversity, diversity of instruction and yet, all coming from from acknowledging the same source and the same, the same goal of what they're teaching. So I'm wondering if you could speak to just this coming as a, as a as a fresh meditator with very little experience and having this kind of whirlwind of, of senators and teachers suddenly available?
25:23
Yes, you know, well, it's quite natural for being for people who know, only one tradition to be attached to that tradition, because that's what they know. And not only in the West, here to like, if you go to mahasi Center, oh, you better come from hacia center and you don't say that you're coming from? I don't know, from oxy. I would have maybe to change into pink or what I don't know.
25:48
Because the robes you're wearing are identified as as what nuns were from, correct. Yeah. brown color, right. Yeah. Whereas in my homies, yeah, right, Burmese Ian's typically wear pink fingers. In Brown,
26:00
yes, yes, there is a strategy against that, actually, that I see in my in my university. So in my university even though we as we like focused on studies on academic studies of Buddhism, there is a meditation subject is obligatory, and not just theoretical studies of the theory of meditation of Theravada. Meditation may be not only Terada in a note, but also a student has to take at least two retreats, meditation retreats in a tradition that is not his,
26:31
where's this requirement from
26:33
in SSB, you and the Shan state Buddhists don't. Right? And I think it's great. What it allows you, it allows you to see that the method is the method, but the qualities of the mind are the qualities of the mind and the meditation. The aim of meditation is to develop the good qualities, the wholesome qualities of the mind. And so whatever tradition is, it has its value. It helps In one way or another, and for one person one method may be more suitable for another person maybe another method is more suitable. So it's worthwhile to to be free enough to try and to see what is most suitable for you.
27:15
So that leads in to the next question I was I was going to ask which is being a little more granular and specific about the meditation journey that you had you you came in as a going a student going cuz what brought you to his his homeland of wanting to to practice the Dhamma and then as you took robes, you your spiritual journey unfolded so I'm wondering if you can speak to what what you were practicing at different stages since your ordination?
27:46
Well, you know, I one thing that I knew already when I came to this country that I need to develop concentration. I was sitting long courses is not only one and what became clear to from them that what I need to actually be passing is good, but to be passionate to be effective, more effective, or maybe to for actually for me to attain anything I need to develop more concentration and say one third of the course for concentration for me is not enough and I thought to myself naively, I thought okay, so I'll go now to Bangkok. And I quickly quickly I go through all this Janice. And then I go back to grenke and I can practice with Pastner happily never letting everything okay that didn't happen. But yes, I was working long time for one concentration takes longer than then it took longer
28:38
so PowerPC was basically your first stop. So you you you had a mainstore so you had a respite at 20 min. And then that took you soon after its Apollo coordination happened and then for you admit you would reference the number three and a half years of intense practice so was that the intense power practice you're free to? So you were three and a half years at power Moya main are people
28:59
in no was staying actually I was staying the first year I was staying well I didn't intervene. Then I after sometime I went for a short time to Mandalay and then some compassionate friends of mine saying that I'm very unhappy they send me to Indigo is the where the money at the same same village. So near Yangon nearby go
29:24
that's going along CORE Center right right. So
29:26
then there is one powerg branch center very small. So we will maybe say on average about maybe 10 people. And so and you said oh can spend a lot of time to us and he knows our meditation very well better than we. And I had full trust in Him and that was perfect condition for me. But I would follow the instructions that said I would give but actually to, I think the most progress I made when I went to Spain, very interestingly because when I went out of this culture out of the Place and to just into say real world, I could immediately see what qualities are lacking and what qualities are there? What do I need to develop? And Okay, so what is already developed? So whereas in any system of meditation I think when it is a system, then the teacher will say no for you to do this and they only have 10 days to do this and then know that you don't do now, no, no, no, no, no, this when you attain that, then you can, you know, so, but in Spain, I was my own teacher, I could practice and I could see that so, the main thing I've, like, I went that was my friend drew me a map of where one cave is, and she said, okay, you can stay there. So I went to a cave and you know, cave doesn't have a door. And the first thing the very first night I realized, okay, Sally, your heart has to be as open as this case. Anybody can come in In and anybody comes in I have to welcome otherwise I cannot stay here How? And I understood what I have to develop as mentor. So I was working out well, that that became my main practice loving kindness for a long, long time. And that actually allowed me later to develop high mind. So it's is good. I don't know. So that's my way. And even, I didn't I didn't practice with personnel in the box systematically. So anyway, I have not have not practiced with personnel according to box and RG. But what I was doing within with my increasing intellectual understanding of the Dharma, I just tried to follow the Dhamma every day every moment in Spain, in Spain and in here when I came back when I came back also, so because I was lucky to find a monastery to stay in a monastery, we also said oh doesn't push any of his friends. He calls us friends. He doesn't push us in any direction. So me being happy in Spain, my body recovered quickly my mind
32:10
what was your body problem
32:11
in the well I actually I I had some poisoning and I don't remember which parasite I had I had some parasite, okay. And I couldn't digest food anymore. So the digestion was the issue.
32:23
So when you talk about not being able to digest Yeah, like it's literal as well as figured, yeah, you literally couldn't digest food as you figuratively couldn't digest Dharma teachings. Yes, you
32:32
Yes. I think it's very connected. I think it's better connected. And I think the parasite was just like a manifestation of, you know, what had to happen anyway. So after digesting, having digested the Dhamma, or having been digested the, of having become healthy again, mentally and bodily. I decided to come back to Burma because it's even harder. Good it is how good it was to stay in Spain. It is still not a Buddhist country, and I didn't fell felt, I just felt a need for a support of monastic community which was lacking there. And, and so well, I came back one year, I think 2017 and then and since then, where did your spiritual journey pick up at that time I went to my monastery recommended by a friend. And it's not a meditation center, even it's called the Gita. It's not a meditation center. And it's not a study center. It's a monastery, where said or supports anybody who is sincere in his Dharma practice, if he wants to, if you want to study you can study if you want to meditate, you meditate. He just supports you physically, and he gives you and he can give you instructions and meditations if you ask him if you don't ask. And if you're happy with what what you're doing do is he will support so And he's very flexible in history. He's trained in augmented, but he's very flexible. So he allowed me to practice whatever I wanted to practice. And if I needed in support for instructions, and he would give us instructions, he taught me a beat the MA and many, many, many, many, many things. So, but my main undertaking at that time was just to follow them. And
34:24
so what does that mean in practical terms, like from 2000? So, to clarify from 2017 until just recently when you enrolled in Shan state, Buddhist University, you you were mainly based at this monastery. Yes. And what how would you describe the form your practice took in those years?
34:41
Oh, it was mainly meditating,
34:42
meditating and what what style?
34:45
Oh, it depended on my mind Really? It depended on my mind and some examples Well, I for example, I like very much if I need concentration I like I'd like to practice light casino. So and you know, which is can you explain briefly light casino Yeah, oh, you just you just focus on light. You focus your mind on on the concept of light. And then the mind becomes very bright and you're just you're just knowing the brightness.
35:11
And this was one of the 40 techniques given by the Buddha. Is that correct?
35:15
Oh, well. Hmm. You want to be precise?
35:20
Actually, yes, it's enough 47 subjects listed in Viswa maga, let's say so, given by the Buddha. I don't know well, we find we find the Buddha says that to focus on the perception of light if you feel if you feel sleepy, so we see this but you know, there is no list in any way in the suitors, 14 meditation subjects and even in other in other sources. So even in the commentaries, we see we see the list of 38 light cassina is not there. But it's a very good objects. The pole for me is very happy objects are what I know now. So for meditation, to be free Successful the mind has to be happy but he's with what he's knowing with the object, you know, if we are bored with our anapana and what we are pushing it again, again to the breath, you know, it's, it's, it's not very effective really, our, our, our, our mind has to be happy with what it is knowing.
36:19
So that's one example of like a form your meditation takes depending on the state that you're aware of what would be other examples of the form that it takes these past couple years?
36:29
Right? So okay, so the the same meta, meta, the same loving kindness right right on the passenger side or sometimes when the world if the mind the mind is just naturally began becoming aware of the, of the change, whatever change you know, I'm, I'm not restricting myself to an object of what is changing because everything is changing. So whatever it can or whatever or if it's naturally seeing the cause and effect just allow things to happen. And naturally really, because with the concentration things become obvious and which things is not for me to choose. And, and there are sometimes I had really really intense experiences just because the mind becomes very, very sharp, but you still live in a community and it's not safe for formal course where everybody's silent and and walking, things do happen. And with this concentrated mind when something's shocking things may happen, then it can trigger a process a real process. Can you give an example? Well, I don't want to go into details read it, because it can be very painful also. Sure, sure. And but, you know, through pain we learn the most, and I'm not talking about physical pain, that it comes together it can come together
37:48
sounds like generally referring to like triggering of trauma.
37:52
Oh, yeah, like this, like this and, but we have many, many methods of how to how to work with that. And when we live in the community say I have no other Nan's friends who, who can give me support or the teacher, though, in such cases, maybe I would feel more comfortable or confident to talk to a female practitioner in this way, but then, you know, very, very unexpectedly in my on my personal journey, the deepest seeing of reality for me happened in the university, the Chancellor when studying,
38:32
yeah, can you give an example of that or are you
38:35
it's also very difficult to do. I mean, it's very hard to say, it will go
38:42
I will not go into details but the studies may make the mind also concentrated, very concentrated, especially when very intense, you know, and still things are happening. Just as I said now and previously in the monastery, but maybe more things are happening and Just the mind just got a very, very deep shock and it was shaking so much, the mind suddenly starts seeing reality much deeper than ever before for a number of days was very interesting experience, really. So now I'm fairly relaxed about any methods or attachments or whatever I think as long as we're just following the teachings as long as we are keeping our sila, we practice really any kind of purification of the mind, or keeping them control of the mind. Man developing good qualities and, and not allowing the unwholesome qualities to overwhelm the mind is enough, is enough, and we don't know how near or far are we from depolarizations we never know.
39:51
Right? I think what's interesting in hearing your talk, what I'm reflecting on is that I'm thinking that some meditators who've never been to to me and Or maybe you only then bend very briefly understand their practice from a very gifted teacher that is able to to give a very whoever that teacher may be not speaking of one specifically but a teacher who's able to, to package this whole experience and give instructions that lead you on the path and there's an that really gives you something to hold on to there's there is a way to practice there's a way to make sure you're practicing the right way. And in hearing you talk now, I think there's there could be a sense of listlessness, a floating of, of coming from a background where you you have something to grab on to you, you have checkmarks where you're able to see what you're supposed to be doing and how you're doing it. And kind of the the free form that you're describing, I think is contrast to that. So I think that that would that that could be something challenging for people to To understand even how that works, or how coming from something more regimented, does that make sense?
41:06
Yes. But I mean, when you're learning anything, sure you're learning the system first. And once you once you've learned the system, then you can improvise, right to play on the piano, you do your gammas first, you know, you cannot improvise immediately enough, right? But then once you know the all the harmonies and everything, okay, you can then produce some really nice jazz. But I think Same, same and same. Same with the with the Dharma practice, it's good to have methods, it's, it's it these are tools, so we can draw, draw them out when you need them. But to be able to do that, you first have to learn you know, to make the tools to so you have them in your ready when you need them, how those tools work. There are so many there are so many. So I would I would I would advise to have more tools you have is better,
41:57
right? Especially when all those tools are coming from one person Every teacher shall, right. It's and it's interesting using that that's a very good way to kind of tie those things together. And it's interesting using that, that analogy of like musical improvisation, a mutual friend of ours has a different analogy he's described and that's of drama childhood drama adolescence dama adulthood, and he's described the the experience of working with a very regimented set of instructions as being something of drama childhood and when you're when you're in a childhood you you do need to be told things you don't have the wisdom or the the independence on your own to be able to make really, really good decisions for your life. You You need that protection. But there comes a time when you reach adolescence any any human being reached adolescence, and then you're you don't quite have, you don't quite always make the right decisions, but you do want a little bit more freedom and kind of kind of testing the edges and seeing what you Get away with seeing what the consequences of things are taking control of your own. You're your own decision making. And, and, and kind of like a snake coming out of his skin. He's described in vivid language, his own passage from painful passage from Dhamma. Childhood to Dhamma. adolescence. So just to share, you know, that's interesting that that's another way of looking at what you've described as kind of the musical creative improvisation that you've grown into. Mm hmm.
43:30
And that was beautiful, you know, and we can we can bring that beauty in our life, not by just playing gammas. But when we really become skillful to, to, I don't know, to see the beauty and everywhere in any form, not just doremi Faso.
43:51
Do you come from a musical background? No. Okay.
43:53
Well, I don't know why.
43:56
Right, right. I'm taking on the decision to wear the robes and VMO nastic. How has that affected your practice different from being a normal lay meditator?
44:07
You don't have to do the things that lay people do like going and seeing this and that and you know how to spend my weekend and this party or that, you know, all that. I don't have to distract yourself, which I felt previously I felt obliged myself that you know, while it's weakened, you should do something, maybe. Yeah. Nothing like that. You can just meditate and meditate and meditate or study, study, study, whatever, you know. No need to, to think about anything else. Really great.
44:39
Yeah. I think when some serious meditators hear about the possibility of ordination. For one thing, it's hard to imagine what even what monasticism is, as I said earlier in the talk, it's not a vocation, we really grew up within our society. So it's difficult to even imagine the concept of that, but when someone seriously On the path of meditation starts to contemplate being a monastic, it's often it's hard to imagine that experience as anything other than so it's basically a meditation course every day in my life. It's basically just what I do on a meditation course i'm just going to do every day that's all there is to life.
45:17
Well, I thought that I have thought that initially when they are then maybe the first seven months or something, they will like this for me. And then just before because I was moving to another monastery, have some distraction and new places and everything and but that what was taking place in the beginning, but that's of course not all one thing on the course of like on a ganker course your noble Thailand and your cut off everything and in say, in the meditation center in a monastery, you can do you It's up to you, you can you do that or you don't do that. So it's up to you. And then there is much more space for I think now in the monastic life or actually still for to be deep in meditation and still to have interaction with the surrounding your steel emitted teacher and it's not like so disturbing case and on the long course of two times a month you have to talk to a teacher and it's so wow you know that no you can talk to your teacher freely and even if you go to pick up your lunch and you say, you know, Nicola, sorry Nicola, you okay? And also it's fine. It doesn't disturb because you you're happy, you're more relaxed, I think. Sure you have at least me you can be more relaxed out I have seen. I have seen different manifestations and some people, they do leave like on a course. The whole you No for a long time, but sooner or later they have to relax. Sometimes our health fails. And we have to go to the hospital. And you go through experiences that make you to relax if you don't relax yourself, right. And so, I think it's a more balanced way of being, you know me because also you have to take care of certain things. And for the monks, they go for four arms every day. So and they still interact with people and I think this is very good. And for me, it's been also this was very valuable thing to do to go and to see people and to feel that even just by seeing me just for allowing them to see me I already contribute to, to, to their life, actually. So how so? Do you see often a Buddhist monk or nun in the West? Do you often get an opportunity to give to offer food to a monk or a nun in the West You don't you know, and now these people have this opportunity. So okay, so I'm meditating and I'm doing the job that Buddha prescribed. So, and I'm giving them this opportunity. So that that was my attitude. And that was my contribution, I believe, and those who wanted to discuss something, and if I was able, or they could speak English, then I also could support you know, so yeah, so I think this interaction between lady and monastics is also very important for the practice of monastic. Not to be completely in some some way above the clouds, you know, like actually to live on Earth. Yeah, that's what monastic life gives. Great, right and how about your your family's reaction to your ordination? My mother thought that this is another crazy thing she's doing. I think she was she. She thought that it will not last long. Maybe some of the Sometime I will come back. But then she passed away before I can pack. So sorry. No, that's, that's all right, that happened. And when I went for the funerals to my mom of my mother, I talked to my father and I explained him in in details, how do I how I leave what I'm doing, and how is my life because before when my mother was there, I would talk to my mother, mainly. And my mother would talk to the Father somehow. We didn't have really direct contact. That was one another thing my mother didn't want really to hear the details she accepted, okay, she's a nun. Okay, she's like bald and wearing funny clothes, but No, man, she's my daughter. But all the other details are I don't want to, I don't want to know keep for yourself, okay. We accept you as it is, but I don't want to know much. But my father is very open. Really? And I was so surprised. And he said, Hmm, you can live like this. What if I could? I would also, are they practicing Christians? Or no, they don't have any education. This is quite common among, you know, among that part of the world, but I thought my father
50:12
anapana and he practiced and he practiced just for a short while and he told me, ah, it works.
50:21
Of course, you know, like, what do you think? Am I crazy? I'm doing this for so many years, you know?
50:28
Well, unfortunately, he doesn't practice now. Yeah. But I hope that this year I go and I see him and I stay for some time maybe together, and we can somehow practice a little bit if you I think if he feels more value to it, then maybe he can be motivated even just 10 minutes or 15 minutes a day he visited here. No, no. Maybe the time I don't know.
50:51
It can be monastic. living as a monastic in this country can often be very austere and very rural and another mutual friend. We have A monk from from Europe. You know his, I think it was his mother that came to visit him and I heard she saw she was brought to where he lives the kuti, the forest cootie where he lives and she broke down in tears. She was just so distraught that she knew these things, but just I mean, she knew that what her son was doing and living here in the kind of life but actually seen the level of simplicity and and open to the elements that he was living in just seeing that her son was was was living like this expose just brought her to tears.
51:33
Well, yeah, p
51:34
People don't understand really. You know, in Spain, I spent about three months not even in a cave, on a rock in the mountains, and I was so happy, just to see that you can live like that! You don't need anything! It's amazing. Nature doesn't do anything to you. You know, you can live so in harmony and so simple, it just brings happiness to the mind. So, you know, the simplicity, the more simple conditions I think the happier the mind can be. If of course, you're contented. If you're not, whatever conditions will be, you will not be contented. I don't see a purpose of really living in a very rich environment, and much comfort. We search for liberation from the suffering because we see the suffering if we don't have any dukkha and we don't see it, then there is no need to do anything!
52:34
I'm changing the subject a little bit i'm i'm curious about the experience of, of being a nun in a country where monks are privileged and where the bikuni or the formal nun order from the time of the Buddha in Myanmar, in contrast to other Buddhist countries is not seen as broken and unable to be restarted and because of this Burmese feel much more merit when they're giving to a monk because their true sons of the Buddha, whereas nuns are more like, female spiritual enunciates than some formal lineage. So I'm wondering what your experience has been like as nun and with your male monastic contemporaries, foreign foreign monks, by you, if you've seen the difference in treatment or experience,
53:25
of course, was of course, that's unavoidable. And in the beginning, I was really shocked, but because I had no idea for me, I had no idea when I became a nun, that there is really a difference, you know, and it was very painful in the beginning. But no, just you have to accept you know, and because I value the damage that I get here, except, now that's, it's like this. Nevertheless, I see many changes also here and just recently, I saw some pictures. of Indian house. I don't know whether it's like from embassy or whatever, some Indian men, many Indian women and men making offering to nuns, some ordnance and flowers, some don't and a charity. I don't know if you know the like Study Center, Nance saw that brown Nance being announced they had them all instead of monks. And they made offerings and they were preaching and you know their foot food also saw also that they had nonsense set of monks and also happy for them.
54:35
So you're saying that you you you had you said something just now about how you you had to accept that there's these that it was painful, but there were these Dharma teachings and and to access these Dharma teachings you you just had to accept them wondering what did you have to accept? More specifically?
54:52
That you want you know, sometimes we are treating we are treated likely people who can you give an exam specially for ceremonies in the service center. We are put together with lay people.
55:02
You're talking about the physical seating. Yeah, right. And you're probably there's not there's very orchestrated religious formal offering to monks have very grand procedure, and lots of very specific protocols. And it seems there's not that for nuns.
55:17
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then like thinking and sometimes, sometimes we are my man, you know, this, they will sit in front of you, because a woman, man, Molly, man, you know, how do you feel about that? You know, but then you just practice your past nights. Okay. So, thank you. Yeah. Especially in Shan state, you know, that was also quite shocking for the man feel superior to women. manly people, they tend to see after because and salary support after or maybe or the donors will be first and then service. So that's I think that's quite inappropriate. Right. And anyway, I just thought maybe at some point Things will change what, but I am really, I don't have any I don't want to spend any energy, my energy to try to change anything because this kind of changes have to come from inside. We do not as a foreign I cannot come and tell them all this is wrong shouldn't be like this, you should do like this. So this way I was really happy to see this man man's performing the role of monks really. And also, you know, they have they have to learn themselves because sometimes I feel that Myanmar nuns being so humble and so they they give themself I don't think they even understand their own value. So that when if somebody person wants to treat them better, or wants them to do something that most usually don't, they don't know how. So that's also a problem,
56:51
right? Given the current situation, do you do you think that that something needs to happen going forward that there needs to be some kind of initiative or do you think it's like like an in an hour physical way or do you think this is all in an inner issue that men, women lay lays foreigners have to somehow do their own inner work?
57:10
I think the issue is quite complex. It's not really a sometimes they tend to blame monks, for example in the situation, but I don't think this is the whole culture. And many times I have seen monks, really, they, they appreciate you as much as, as they appreciate Nan's as much they appreciate monks. But the laypeople they have this perception condition perception from childhood. And how can that change? I don't know.
57:39
That's the question. Yeah. So what do you do with it? Do you use you use the word initially accept you just accept so is that your basic practice you a lay person steps, you know, sits and sits in front of you. And there's a hall you know, all the lay people enter the hall or the cafeteria before the nuns actually, there's not much you can do in that situation. a stream of lay people are going in, you certainly can't edit your way in front of them. Perhaps you could talk to management or to, you know, you could take a higher level approach. But, but then you're getting involved in a whole sort of societal and, you know, bigger conversation that maybe you wanted to get out of when you were dating in the first place. Yes,
58:17
but you know what, the one thing that was very liberating for me is, again, going to Europe, because in Europe, you're just a beggar. You go to take arms, you're not even a Buddhist nun or anything, nobody knows. You're just a beggar standing there, barefoot girl without hair who is hungry? That's all you know. So that kind of brings you into reality. This is reality, you're a beggar. So to imagine that you're higher than even a layperson, you know, actually not.
58:46
So it's a very humbling experience.
58:49
Yes, yes. So all the monks or whatever, you know, so, really, I whenever pain, painful feelings arise on this account. I just tried Remember my experiences pain? And does this put me in a place in the right place, I think in the correct place because before going to that of like, of course, you know, when you're meditating for hours and hours and hours, you know, you tend to think, Oh, I am so I'm such a great meditator Look at me. Who are you? Just a beggar really, over your whatever your attainments at it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. In a society, this is how we come into society and you depend on these people. So if they treat like this, okay, it's their karma also, what they're doing.
59:37
Right? Um, so you've talked a lot about the the beauty of the simple life The, the simplicity of being in robes. I'm wondering, this is this is I think this is a question a lot of foreign laypeople do have when they look at what has to be given up in order to become a monk and there's there's some fear and there's some attachment to everything I have around me, you know, money Entertainment good food sexuality free time whatever whatever these things are you know companionship family comfort like and they see your life as kind of a rejection whether they think it's an rejection or escape but a canceling out of all these other things and with that fear and attachment comes a question of that maybe I'll ask on behalf of this kind of mind What do you miss what do you what what do you feel you've lost what do you what what is what is difficult about the life that in or what is difficult about the the monastic life that in lay life you had?
1:00:39
I don't know No, I feel something completely opposite you know, I just feel freedom. Freedom to be what I am this is their this is what this is their in this life. I have freedom. I don't have to be anything that I'm not you know, so I don't know what I miss. I cannot think of anything I miss reading.
1:01:02
Is there anything you feel that you've sacrificed or you've lost? Or that you've, you've let go of that you that that is that is difficult and choosing the life you've chosen,
1:01:11
I hope some defilements we have abandoned
1:01:15
you know, some did use that
1:01:18
or was there something maybe at the beginning that was difficult that's not as difficult now, the first couple years
1:01:23
I mean, you know the cultural differences of course, this you have to adjust to try to understand the culture you're living in. So, that that from time to time can be difficult Of course, the food and you have to eat rice of the day and all this you know, but the mind is such a thing that it gets used to things very, very easily, very quickly. So, I think again, much more than I have lost if I lost at all.
1:01:53
Um, so another topic, Myanmar on the discussion of being in Myanmar Can you can you talk generally about what your experience has been here of the country and the people
1:02:02
and different experiences but like mostly I love the country. I already told you before that I really I really love the love about her. I don't know I love the people I love I love how they are the generosity their open mind the things that maybe other foreigners don't like so much. The here here, the here here the clear and the respect for the elders they have actually mutual respect. So everybody has his own place in the in the structure and its higher hierarchy. But everybody accepts that. And, and in this way there is harmony and also nobody is trying to be something that is not and in the same way I'm a non accepted okay and I'm just and I'm not trying to be a monk and to play a role of monk or anything so okay because this is the also The game and I like it, I like it that just the simplicity and and happy people, you know,
1:03:09
how has been in Myanmar supported your practice or what have you? How has it informed your practice what have you gained by being in the country and in the culture,
1:03:17
I don't think you can gain it out of the Buddhist, traditional Buddhist country, his faith, his faith and in the in the Buddha Dharma and Sangha and because here on the like on the outlook, it looks like very ritualistic and when when I was thinking, indigo had this duty of offering food to the Buddha, so we will take for one week, each Sally would take the duty of offering food to the Buddha. So but nobody explained me, you know, what are you actually doing and how, you know, what is your mind? You know, what is the process actually behind the physical manifestation and So I will just see how other people do it and you know, I would do something similar. And I would sometimes observe someone maybe sitting the associates offering for to the Buddha and she sits there waiting for maybe 1015 minutes and she's sitting and fanning. Oh, I think Wow, he even it's like a fan Oh, he drinks and it's, you know, it's so funny.
1:04:21
From there for for the outsider.
1:04:25
But actually, again, when I went out of the country, and when I was in Spain, I started doing the same thing. And it's supported me so much. I started offering my arms, my arms before eating, I started offering to the Buddha. And it was really I felt like oh, Buddha is with me. And yeah, I'm not alone, and I would feel alone. And I did feel alone because there is no other nun or anybody you know, from the Buddhist no Buddha is with me, so I have to offer him food and everything I go to meditate heavily. So I think this kind of practices and They can be really experienced or taken on board, I think in the in, in traditional Buddhist countries outside I don't know.
1:05:10
So this is an example of like a cultural, even religious, local practice that just by being in this be just by being in its proximity, you've learned and gained and incorporated into your own into your own life and practice,
1:05:25
even if I didn't understand it initially, you know?
1:05:29
Right. I'm just as you talk, I'm just trying to find this, this quotation and I just found it now because you talk about faith in Myanmar. And there's a, this is a quotation by a British colonial servant in the 19th century, who his name is Harold fielding. In 1898. He wrote a book called The soul of a people. And there's a there's a passage that has always been one of the most significant and meaningful passages I've ever read of a foreigner describing The Buddhist life here and the difference of the Dhamma here and finding in one's own country. So I'd like to read this because it your your immediate answer of the power of faith, immediately recalled to me the eloquence of the statement. So again, this is Harold fielding soul of a people from 1898. To hear of the Buddha from the living lips in this country, which is full of his influence, where the spire of his monastery marks every village where every man has at one time or another bent his monk is quite a different thing to reading of him in foreign countries under other skies and swayed by other thoughts to sit in the monastery garden at dusk, in just such a tropic dusk as he taught and so many years ago, and here the yellow robe monk, tell him that life and repeat his teaching of love and charity and compassion, eternal love, perfect charity, endless compassion until the stars come out in the purple sky and the silver void gongs ring for evening prayers as a thing never to be forgotten. As you watch the starlight die, and the fire off hills fade into the night as the sound about you still, and the silence of the summer night falls over the whole earth, you know and understand the teacher of the great piece has no words can tell you. A sympathy comes to you from the circle of believers and you believe to an influence and an understanding breeds from the nature about you the same nature the teacher saw, and from the whispering fig tree and the scented jam packs, and the dimly seen statues in the shadows of the shrine that you can never gain elsewhere. As the monks tell you the story of that great life, they bring it home to you with reflection and comment with application to your everyday existence.
1:07:44
Beautiful. Beautiful, I can only sign under that,
1:07:48
right? Yeah. So do you have any sense of how long you will stay here? I don't know.
1:07:53
I don't know. But I will now with my mother having passed away I may have to go sooner or later. Stay with My father was something I didn't know the future is very uncertain but that only encourages me to make use of all the time that while I'm here
1:08:10
I'm still here. Do you plan to stay on in robes for your life or is that
1:08:13
well, I mean unless I circumstances push me to disrobe and fairly contented it's difficult for me to imagine to to change of course you never know when we have common friends who you know do chain would have changed but that is also a very difficult process for for people so not sure if I want to write right
1:08:40
on the other side, is there anything about being Myanmar that's difficult to that's frustrating or that you have a hard time with
1:08:47
it can be sometimes can be you know, like act like anywhere many things actually that we can be this this satisfied about but since I have moved to Shan state somehow My mind has realized relaxed about many things. And when did you move to Shantae? In May, May last year me So, before that, because you know, you have some as a certain a certain level of noise all the time, or whatever you think, you know, noise, the pollution, the oil in the food and all so many things we can complain about. But now somehow because I'm not all the time in the noise and not all the time, have to eat very unhealthy foods. So, somehow My mind is very relaxed about that. Hmm, right. Yeah.
1:09:45
So, lastly, I just want to know about your, your, your recent experience going to Shan State University and also before that you were involved quite a bit on a poly translation project. Is that correct?
1:09:57
Well, I have I have to pleated some. My my favorite things maybe from poly to Lithuanian, because in between Yeah, really we don't have any Terada anything of Theravada at all we have going courses. And I think they have, the Trust has already purchased the land. And there are plans to build a center in the long run and all that but you know, the Glencoe meditation thing is one thing and Theravada Buddhism is not completely same thing. So we have nothing of Theravada Buddhism, let's say so. So I have written some articles in this way and some I've translated the suitors which I think are important especially about meditation mostly about concerned with meditation, from Bali to Lithuanian back and forth with the basics of basic concepts of Buddhism. So and now the you know, since I'm in the university, there are many projects to get involved in. So I just I don't know, I just have to decide and prioritize what I want to do. And yes, because likely the Lithuanian language is very close to Sanskrit and Pali and it's quite not so difficult for us to learn
1:11:15
interesting Lithuanian, Lithuanian language is not so far from Pali and Sanskrit. Yeah. How
1:11:20
was it the Sanskrit because we have to, you know, that we have this sounds that pilot doesn't have, but historically, not sure, I had some discussions with some scholars about how it might have happened, how how migration had happened and why, man, the thing is that especially the seniors this so we are very few and people are trying to they're clinging to holding on to the language. It's like there may be national identity. And we have like a government commission for like protecting language and you shouldn't be Use this and that and everything so it's they they try to prevent the changes as much as possible so that I think that might be my one of the reasons why we're still quite close especially like in grammatical structures grammatical rules of course we all indo European languages, we have similar roots to Sanskrit and Pali words but right
1:12:23
and were you involved refresh my memory because I'm not quite remembering this full story, but there was there was some library in was it in midstate that with some some very rare Pali textbooks that
1:12:37
well that is read so next time I that I'm not in I was only I'm not involved, I went only to see this, this beauty. Okay. And yes, there is one library of manuscripts in tecton. It's not very old. It's it was established in the beginning of 20th century, but the texts that are copied
1:12:59
some really rare
1:13:02
and good quote, like in inequality, the manuscript summons, which is just a beautiful place to go and see. So if anybody's in your mind you, you pass you go to mon state, you go to the tone by the entry to the Miata big pagoda on the left hand side that is, I think so the majority don't remember the name of the monastery actually, but that's just where the stairs start on the left side there is a monastery at the monastery, there are maybe about 70 novices or something and they have Peter codec. So they have a typical library. And you can ask, you can ask somebody to show you so they can take you and the manuscripts that are kept in the in, like colonial cupboards and the ceiling is gold and all gilded and, and the carpets also as well and it's also So beautiful. This library has been digitalized. There was a project from Japan, but a collaboration of different scholars from all over the world, including my current pilot teacher, and, and it's available actually online. So if anybody's into manuscripts, you can read as much as you like. It's very interesting.
1:14:20
So it sounds like for the next volume of the meditators guide, another entry to it, there's all these kind of precious places just, no one knows about that. Even in today's version of the internet, even looking online, it's very, very, very hard to get access of, of anything like this. So just talk just mentioning that briefly in a podcast, someone may be getting inspired to want to go and then maybe someday we write a little bit more so people can find it more easily. So on the subject of study, which is what you're currently doing at the Shan state, Buddhist University, actually, first maybe you can talk about the origin of the Shan state Buddhist university because it's a very new venture correct, right.
1:14:58
It's right. It's a Only second year. It's functioning only the second year actually the founder is said Oh, Thomas me. So he's a he's a Rector said Oh, and he in Myanmar he is rather know by buying another name Oxford said Oh, because he's after getting kiss like traditional monastic education. He went to Oxford actually and got his PhD from there. So for me and my people, this sounds very, to say, very incredible that Myanmar McMahon could go to Oxford and get PhD. So they really adore him and they can really regard him really, really highly. And so he had this idea that Myanmar traditional education monastic education test it, it has a lot of knowledge, but what it lacks is the what the methods of analyzing and investigating the and analyzing the information that is there generally, there is no skill of critical analytical thinking and the monks, they just learn. Mostly they just learning text by heart, and this is how they pass the exams. And so he established this place in order to bring together the, the traditional monastic education and the western approach to Buddhist studies. And so the scholars from the west and local monks they can meet them they can exchange one is a very good, a very good source of information and other is has a great skill in how to analyze how to put things together, how to write, how to ask questions, so that's what they are training the monks in, but even we are foreigners, and we don't have the monastic education is that we still can benefit a lot.
1:16:57
Right and it should be noted that this is an author A book called from idealism to pragmatism, I think the name of the book is, which I've read and is, is, is a comparative study of the last several hundred years of monastic education between Thailand and me. And that's his PhD. Yes. So in short, Oxford say it makes this argument that the achievements lady said I was able to have was, I mean, obviously, all credit goes to Lady seda. But it was also a product of the monastic education system from which he came and that a monk arising in recent times, wouldn't have that broad flexibility and breadth and depth, to be able to, to make the strides that that lady made, and that mahogany own was really, you know, critical of how it was developed. And so it's just to give some background to the listeners, it's very interesting that a writer who would focus on this topic and come from the standpoint would, after producing this kind of flow of monastic education and where it got to today and really decrying the the dangers of rote memorization at a cost to all else has now in two years ago has begun his own experimental monastic University of which you're now a student.
1:18:09
Yes. And it's great. I think it's the place is quite unique and I don't know for anybody who wants to pursue somebody at knowledge I think I really really recommend because in also what I have seen the for the foreigners in traditional universities or mo here, study centers, that they really struggle with this think of memory memorization by heart only and simplifying things and going only by tradition and learning. Like so much so, so many things that are irrelevant really to for us on the path to liberation. So there I think you're free from that. Now free from that and the he has really good stuff from with a high level of education in multiple UK and not only they have all their degrees and articles and everything so really really good teacher so how many students we are now really small yeah but now is there is only PhD in me program so we about 30 maybe 30 plus i think that applies so it's very like family like which had love
1:19:25
foreigner Burmese what's
1:19:27
yeah for a number
1:19:29
yeah I didn't know that proportion in English instruction yes in English in English medical English you have to pass your TOEFL or LTS if you want to join so the the boot like standard good standard for English it's because also one thing what like foreigners struggle here when they do it in other say other universities that the medium is supposed to be English but the teacher is hardly speaking English so they cannot understand what the teacher is making. So yeah, so that's it case in that university so how is tangy I love it. It's cool. Literally it's really it's nice weather bubbly people, very clean food and mountains and mountains. So yeah, it's it's wonderful,
1:20:17
tangy literally means big hill.
1:20:20
So just one last question about study. So we've been kind of taking a Myanmar centric view of the monastic education and and the role of study for Western listeners coming from this many people that are interested in meditation and the Buddhist teachings come primarily from a practice oriented viewpoint, I just, I, there's a real drive to hear that message in terms of just practice, practice, practice. This is this is what's going to allow for the escape of suffering. Obviously, that's what brought you here and that's what marked here for several years and as you've talked about earlier, your transition into seeing the value of studying And you've mentioned even the insights into reality and the mind that you've had from study alone what that's brought you. So I'm wondering if you could speak to a little bit about your, your, your transformation into seeing that value of study and what that value is.
1:21:16
Well, one thing when I read directly politics, then it to me it really it sounds like the Buddha, whatever his disciples are speaking to me, so that that alone is already so inspiring. So one thing is inspiration. Another thing is what ever method of meditation practice you learn from a teacher you just learned the way the teacher will describe how he went multi practice but he didn't practice all because now we don't have to practice or he will just describe his own way. But the waves are so many and when we are familiar with the with the teachings, more The more we can judge really for ourselves where we are, we can rely more on the on the actually on the source, rather than on some personality. I think maybe for Myanmar, that's not a problem. We have so much faith that anything that he just says is Yeah, they will say yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. You know, but for a foreign it's not, I think it's not the case and we want to have the authority or the teachings there are so many interpretations again, even in the west for the for the same topic on the same topic, there will be so many opinions and so Oh, that means that whatever that's not everybody will have the either will have from come from their own experience. Or I have seen also which I have the impression that I get some people give some weird explanation of chests, I think, quite clear doctrinal points, just in order to to give a different For an explanation, and maybe to I don't know, to be original something, but I don't think there should be much originality, you know, it's already more than 2000 years old to the teaching. And for me, what has the really really great Valley here is that I have an access to the traditional explanation of the teachings, the how the Tera vaada interprets this of that, you know, then of course, for myself I can decide, well, yes or not whatever, but because people are sticking to this traditional explanation maybe on the way other people will be, you know, saying, oh, maybe like this, like this or like this, but it will not deviate too far. You cannot go too far because they stick to the traditional explanation and nobody is really following or extrapolating on their own some alternative. You can have alternative but you don't focus too much that it goes into some other real Madden. So I just have a lot of trust into into into the teachings which are, which we get, which we get from the scriptures. So if we if one can read directly, then, you know, we can clarify many doubts, I think.
1:24:18
So study has helped your own practice, would you say? Sure.
1:24:22
So not to be attached just to one view or this view or that explanation or whatever, it just makes the things broader. You see, the Buddha taught so many people in so many different ways, so, it just gives you freedom in your understanding of Tom, but keeps it within the
1:24:41
Great. Well, thank you very much for your time
1:24:43
you. Thank you for having me here.
1:24:45
Yeah, it was wonderful.
1:24:51
The remainder of the podcast will continue after a short break.
1:25:03
What are via an ongoing yada yada yada?
1:25:11
yada, yada, yada, yada, yada yada.
1:25:21
This podcast is made by Dharma practitioners for Dharma practitioners. Let me take a moment to tell you about our team who all bring technical skills along with their dedication to the Dhamma to this work. One sound engineer Martin combs is a composer and producer living in the Netherlands. The other darnay is a local Burmese sound engineer, who also helped us set up our recording studio. Zach Hessler is a former forest monk who lived in Myanmar that helps with content and Ken pranskey uses his considerable skills and editing to help with our scripted content. As for me, I've been exploring how the Buddhist teachings are carried out in Myanmar, for the last decade, we are very fortunate as well, because to cut our costs as low as possible to produce as many episodes as we can at this higher quality level. Some members of our team are willing to work on this project as volunteers and others take only a very small fraction of their usual salary. However, even so, alas, these episodes cannot be produced for free. Given the extensive work that's involved in even 190 minute interview, there is a minimum fixed cost. And to cover those costs. We rely on listeners like you that benefit from this content. If you find the Dhamma interviews, we are sharing the value and would like to support our mission. We welcome your contribution, you may give the patreon@www.patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar as well as via paypal@www.paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar. In both cases, that's Insight Myanmar one word. I N si gh TMYN Mar. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation please feel free to get in touch with us. I hope you enjoy the interview with c'est la Pia dossey as much as I did, there was a lot and that discussion to unpack and for those less familiar with such concepts as the passion of meditation, Burmese Buddhism monasticism, overall Burmese history and the current state of Myanmar today, some parts of the talk might be worth reflecting on a bit more. For that reason, I'm going to connect with my good Dhamma friend Zack Hessler, and share some thoughts about the discussion you just heard. Zack has quite a bit of experience in the golden land from intensive meditation retreats and pilgrimages to work assignments, and for three years as a forest monk here, so he has quite a bit of background to draw upon in catching the deeper themes involved in the talk and bringing them in for consideration. We hope this reflection will provide listeners a broader context in which to place the content you've just heard. Zach is currently living in rural Thailand and will just give a quick Skype Call now to check in with him.
1:28:18
Hey, Zack, are you there? Yeah, here. How are you doing?
1:28:21
Yeah, pretty good. How's your day gone?
1:28:23
Yeah. All right. Just cranking some projects now. weather's nice here. It's last time I it was smoky here, but it's a little clearer today, which is a relief. How are you? And what are you going up to today?
1:28:37
Actually, today I'm making sourdough bread. Funny, I was kind of intimidated by bread baking for most of my my cooking life. And I've I've just got into it. And it's kind of ironic that we're recording this discussion about SEO late today because the last time I made sourdough was when we had her for the interview and we had had offered her lunch before the interview. So I wanted to make this our ahead of time it's a three day process with the recipe I follow. So so we had this you know, hot, fresh baked sourdough bread give her in Yangon that I thought she might get a kick out of and mentioned that it brought up some old memories of her of the the sourdough that she liked in Lithuania. I think I even referenced that in the interview. So, so just more to kind of think of her and remember the interview in unexpected ways as well.
1:29:24
Oh, yeah, that's what that that reference was. I didn't catch that when I was listening. Yeah, thanks.
1:29:29
Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, so yeah, ready to talk a little bit about that interview? Yeah, yeah. So you know, one of the things that struck me when I heard it was just hearing like the, the, the shape of her journey, you know, like, as mentioned on the interview, there's this sense that renunciation can mean just doing the same thing over and over. It's almost a kind of boredom. Not to say that it that it is this way, but there could be a feeling among maybe especially among Westerners who don't really know about The monastic life that that this is what it could be, since you're stepping away from worldly issues, and I really liked how in the talk, she demonstrated what a dynamic lifestyle she was able to have as a nun. It was this sense, even though she's following this strict code of discipline, and she's really left a lot of worldly issues that she describes pretty clearly in the interview. There's the sense that she's still always changing, always adapting, she's learning she's growing. And I think for any meditator thinking about their own path and journey and where they are at a particular time, I just think it was so fascinating and so make kind of so thought provoking and introspective to think about one's own development as a yogi just to hear how inventive she was always been. She had like these, you know, she really demonstrated these critical faculties, that she was always trying to determine what wasn't working out and how to change and what you know, kind of tinker with this here and again, What would what would lead to a more productive spiritual life and constantly this Innovation and Learning, you know, we hear it as she's going from Yogi to none. And then she realizes she's practicing too hard and she goes to Spain, she tries something totally new in terms of, you know, by herself living in a new country doesn't really speak the language, starting this practice of metta in the cave. And then when she comes back to me and Mar when it's time to do that, she then gets really into study and starts, you know, using study in power Yachty to implement her practice as well. So this this kind of constant growth within the spiritual field. And, you know, it's this kind of innovation, that it's kind of, it kind of invigorates the practice. It keeps it alive and fresh. It's It's curious, it's exploratory. And, and I think when Westerners even when meditators when they hear about nun hood or monkhood, any kind of monastic renunciation it's hard to have you know, there might be a romantic or exotic quality of what it means to just focus on this. This contemplation of and mental development and cultivation but it often there could be lacking this shape of how it works what it looks like and I thought what was really interesting about her interview was how descriptive she was in describing both in terms of style as well as function what that taste was for her and to to just see the the different shapes and phases that her spiritual journey took. So I I you know, during the interview and then reflecting on it later that was something that that I really got a lot out of.
1:32:34
Yeah, right. I totally relate to that because I remember I remember when I was becoming going to become a monk I was kind of on this tour in the US going around to all my friends and family and hanging out and spending some late time with them because I was going far away. Anyways, a lot of have this this worry about me because I live such a free life and you know is there's going to be this really limited It's how they perceived as I was trying to explain that. You know, in life, there's an infinite number of things you can you can do an infinite number of ways to live being a monastic, just one of them. When you take a slice of infinity, you still have infinity. So, within being a monk, I realized there was a lot, a lot of different choices, ways, two ways to be places to live, how to be a monk, what to focus on. And yeah, silanes story was just such a rich example. She gave us a lot of examples of not only the variety, but the mental states of discernment and exploration. investigation, like you said, what's working what's not? Yeah, I thought that was that was a really interesting part of her story. And so in another aspect I was focused on, it's like, Going out on her own, you know, in the first time, he was a physical thing, and it wasn't a choice, you know, it was just something that he was actually recommendation teacher, right. So you know, hey, go back home and hasn't done but you know, get yourself healthy again and then then go from there and it put her in this spa where she was independent for a while. I was just reflecting on this that monks have never really occurred to me before. It's kind of an insight that monks actually have this five year training. It's called dependency, where they're, you know, they learn the discipline and they learn the practice, essentially. And after five years, hopefully, they've been well trained, and then they go out and have to make decisions on their own and not that they're totally alone. They'll always have their teacher and they'll run into other teachers and other inspiring people that can give support, but there's a sense of, it's called independence. It's actually when you gain your independence after five years. And I just wondering if there's a I mean, it just seems so rich, even if it happened inadvertently to her. I think it's a good one, it just seems because the way it's set up in the, in the vineya, for monks and nuns, it seems part and parcel of, of the of the Buddhist path. And so I think that's actually a good cue for us lay meditators as well, that there needs to be a point where we own our own Dhamma. And so, so then silos story. I mean, that's kind of, you know, what's not like philosophy or belief, understanding of what the path might be, but but listening to her story, as it as it plays out was, yeah, it was really clear to me how valuable that that piece is.
1:35:56
Yeah, right. And I think that you know, what's so interesting about foreigners That are becoming monastics is that they have so much choice in terms of the kind of monastic that they want to be. Because if you're whether you're in Sri Lanka or Thailand or Myanmar, these theravadan countries, you have some degree of choice, I think in terms of, of the path before you as a monastic, but you're also very much constrained by the expectations of culture and such. And in you know, with with Westerners, I think it's really a wide open field for what you want to do as a monastic Of course, you are expected to follow the basic rules even though you probably do get more of a pass at some of the vinaya for, for not having a clearer understanding or kind of being being helped along. But you know, for example, if you if you want to go into a monastic environment where you're you're really going to be trained in partiality, or you're going to be kind of left alone. You could do your own meditative thing or you want to go into a traditional Thai setting where you the five years are really mandatory and I've talked to foreign foreigners who ordained as monks and they've they've really decided you know which country and which tradition and which part of the country they wanted to ordain in based on the level of freedom and constraint and support that they wanted and you know, sometimes they can make pretty good decisions based on how they know themselves Other times you know, there there might be some traditional aspect which is not as comfortable or seems a little stricter or you know, you you you don't necessarily want to follow but it might actually be better for you. So, it's just this it's kind of an interesting dynamic of, you know, foreigners going into into monasticism of having a little bit more freedom of choice in terms of where they go and what kind of experience they get to probably varying degrees of success and getting you know, whatever it is they're looking for is often you you know, in life when you're you what what you get out of an experience sometimes you you have an idea of what you want or what you're looking for and then you get something you know, sometimes entirely different But that actually was more of what you needed at the time. So, hearing what you said now also makes me kind of contemplate that that wide open sense of freedom that foreign meditators would have.
1:38:10
What I was impressed by just how whether it's by plan or by choice, you know, she chose to ordain a park and we really into that. And yeah, you're right. Some of the stuff you choose, you know, ends up not working for you another thing you just don't know while working. What doesn't it just how Sally used her different experiences, whether her choice or inadvertent, really skillfully. So one example is just like her, her gradual attainment of, of a toolkit. So like I said, the power she really found that the nimitta of light was really good for this. And then in Spain, you know, in the caves, she hadn't planned on this, but but by necessity, and then Being creative enough to utilize a different tool for that necessity, ended up really leaning on metaphor, and then saw where that was useful. Particularly, I mean, at the moment in that context, but then later on as well, there's there situations your mind gets in that that, again, is skillful and she has this rich experience to lean back on and then our other one is just just being aware of cane changing itself, you know, so, she, this is three of the, of the types of practices she she moves between, depending on the conditions that are there. So, again, this is a continuation of this kind of maturity, of one's of one's practice, you know, from, from your learning a lot of you know, Donna and discipline from someone particular way and then moving through and just utilizing experience and wisdom, you know, by investigating To to. Yeah to develop. It's obvious. It's just I mean, her, her story, her experience and her articulation of it's just, I mean, it's the fruits of it good practice. It's so alive. That was that was fantastic.
1:40:17
Yeah. And that's a really good point that, you know, I got that sense when I was listening to her talk, not just what she was saying, but how she was saying it. This sense that that this is the fruit of her practice that we're witnessing this, this whole presence of being. And to me that was really encapsulated in one One moment, particularly that my favorite part of the interview one of the favorite parts of all the interviews I've done so far is this line, she says where she says you don't need anything emphasis. She says, you don't need anything, you know, I must have listened to that line over and over and just had this kind of musical chorus to it all, you know, make up make a series of memes out of it was just so alive and enriching. And, you know, I'll tell you is As great as that sounded in the interview transcript, it was even more alive and energetic in the room in which it happened. It just it completely was like this, this energy that just you know, I felt speaking for myself wrap all of us up and just this this sense of joy and aliveness and possibility and you know, I I just really liked that that moment of her expressing the joy in the simplicity and of just not needing a lot in the world and how nature gives you what you want. And she goes on to explain what she means. But to me just the the energy and enthusiasm that phrase came out was was came struck me as being, you know, many years of practice and mindfulness built in and encapsulated in that moment. The other thing that really stood out to me was her reflection on nun hood, just how honest and frank it was and the balance that she she struck on one hand, being very honest in facing the discrimination that occurs and You know, not trying to minimize it or justify it or or talk about, you know, its cultural appropriateness or, you know, traditional ways of being, I mean, just being very frank of the pain that that she experienced with, with some of the ways that that that monastics and men are privileged over over nuns. Yet at the same time, in the middle of that frank discussion are side by side that frank discussion is acknowledgement that she is really responsible for her own mental states. And so, you know, she This is the reality and she has to work with it, she has to work with, to work with what is occurring and not letting it bring her into increasingly negative negative states because obviously, and she checks in with herself. Her reason for wanting to be a spiritual renunciate as a nun is to want to work towards mental purification and letting go of defilements of all negativity, even when that negativity may seem justified. And so I thought it was it was a really powerful and empowering balance to hear the on one hand the acknowledgement of some of these forms of discrimination while at the same time working very sincerely to not be personally attached and to let go of the manifestations and also to take a measure of, you know, excitement and enthusiasm when there's there's signs that things are going the other way such as the example she gives up the India House sponsoring nuns on that particular day. So So those two things really stood out for me. Right?
1:43:29
Yeah. It's so skillful, because it's so easy to get caught up in the stories especially when they're personal like that and painful. So it's not like she's become numb to to these things. They're still really felt. It's a felt experience and yet hasn't lost your focus on what's important and really is able to like, keep in mind like, what the benefits are, of the overall life like she's able She's still able to get out of this life what she's hoping to get out of it as far as you know her, like you said development of her mind. And yeah. And then that other moment, yeah, you don't need anything. I wasn't there. But even just listening to it, it was like so alive. And it just encapsulates so much wisdom that can be drawn out and explained, you know, of the ignorance of the mind thinking more is more and less is less, and actually less is more, which is what she had lived in and just could blurt out this. This emphatic statement was such with such authenticity and deep joy of not just wisdom, but a joy that comes from wisdom, which is a type of wisdom that is liberating. It is joyful. You know, I, I focus a lot on that because, you know, I do think in some practices, especially in Westerners, not all because there are some different traditions but we focus so much on wisdom that it can be forgotten that joy is a part of it that the wisdom should bring joy in you. Like I said, I just said a bunch of stuff that's all encapsulated just in that in that phrase, she blurted out, and yeah, and yeah, I probably didn't even need to say it because everyone heard it, you know, and it's just so packed full of wisdom. Yeah,
1:45:30
yeah, absolutely in it and the way it came out it just it felt like something at that moment before that. She uttered that phrase, it just felt it was building towards something and then just the musical way it was burst out was really really beautiful. Really great to get those moments here. You know, another thing that I appreciated about it we didn't get this so much in the interview I it's something I know about her from from friendship. She did mention it a couple times in interview is just her relationship and feeling towards Burmese people and culture. You know, there's there's long been a discussion of how or if or to what extent you can separate the Buddhist teachings in the culture in which they're taking place, especially an Asian culture, which has so much more roots and convention and tradition. And for foreigners coming here that want to engage, just to kind of an open question of, you know, should you be engaged, you know, should you engage with both at once? Or is there a way? Is it even desirable? Or is it even possible to, you know, take on the teachings without going into the actual culture? And, you know, there certainly, you know, we certainly know a number of foreign monastics and meditators who have varying degrees of problems and issues with with the culture. I'm sure it's that way in Thailand and Sri Lanka, we know more about me and ourselves and we've definitely seen, you know, a share of foreign practitioners who have had their issues with Burmese culture and c'est la Pia dossey is not one of them. I mean, she is really, really happy to be here and she does reference on the in the interview the part about gaining appreciation for making offering at shrines and how much that was that was supporting your practice and how much he enjoyed doing that. And that was just a moment there that that I think just reflects a deeper part of her personality of just how, what strides she's made to really want to be integrated in society and culture and how much he really, really appreciates everything about it, you know, how much how smooth her transition has been to coming from such a different place to being here and to really be, you know, received warmly and, and to feel to feel like home I think she uses those words to really feel like like coming home and, um, you know, that part of her journey as well was quite interesting.
1:47:42
Right, you know, and even when it's foreign and unfamiliar to her, like, like someone just sitting there and actually fanning a statue of the Buddha while he's eating so to speak. And, you know, if, you know, I know this mind can often do with that kind of stuff, you know, and She held it in such a way that, you know, she even dabbled in it, you know, and then and then shared, you know, I like how she shared later that there was a time and place where she used that not those exact words to say that those exact habits but the overall idea of appreciation and utilize that when she was on her own in Spain and how so in such a way that she didn't feel alone. So kind of personifying the Buddha somehow by, by by offering some of her food to, you know, and so, yeah, there's a skillfulness there, it's related to what we were just talking about, as far as the way her attitudes towards the manhood Yeah, her attitude towards all of Burma. Not every aspect of it, but those aspects that that can be particularly tough for, for foreigners to accept. Yeah, she she seems to handle them so so well.
1:48:59
Yeah, absolutely.
1:49:00
Yeah, another thing that I I'm really happy to hear is that silence shared not so much about her personal story but just the existence of this university in Chan state, you know, it's like, you know, after doing the shoreline book and really learning more, you know, reading Eric Braun and learning more about lady side on and particularly like what you were mentioning in the interview about his, his lady side as kind of existing at the end of a particular era of this scholastic freedom. They had a lot more investigation and broadness to it. Not regimented, not what it became. And we learned in history that it became that way. From a lot of external factors, it's not just the Burmese way of being what we see now be quite easy to judge and what we see now it's just, you know, learning things by memorization and, and, you know, following a very strict structure, everyone's basically learning the same thing in the same way. And it hadn't always been like that. And here we have this. So it's not a resurgence yet, but this well respected side. Basically starting this university, which incorporates some of you know, that some of the people there or have learned, you know, they're like a walking encyclopedia because they've memorized all this stuff. And then mixing that with career analysis and critical thinking, you know, which is, I just, I just wonder what, how that may Bode for the future of education in Burma, not just monastic print in general, but specifically a monastic. I think it's just a I'm just so glad that exists, you know, so I was just really happy to hear that and again, her attitude once again, she's, you know, she's not downplaying memorization and applying analysis to critical thinking she she gives us value to both, you know another another example of Silas Mental maturity. But anyways, yeah, the overall education there. One thing that really struck me was when she was expressing that. And so in such a surprising way, I think surprising to a lot of us perhaps it, her biggest insight that actually lasted for days experientially was actually happened during studies and not on the cushion, so to speak, that, that this practice, really, it's not that you can just maintain practice in between sitting on the cushion that you can practice. But that practice itself can be like, just as if not more powerful. And it just, it just opens the whole world of what good practices you know, I just thought that was a very powerful lesson. It's not just theory. It was actually some her experience that she was expressing and I just thought that was a really powerful moment.
1:51:54
Yeah, I think that's totally true. And I think that you know, your last statement, it's it's funny because the last time you You made just brings us back perfectly to the opening statement that I had that, you know, you're talking about these different ways that she works with, with learning with education with development. And you're referencing basically these these different educational models that she's kind of welcoming on them, you know, meditation and study, memorization and critical thinking, doing, learning her own what works well for her own life and kind of innovating that way. And yet, also respecting and even following even when outside of Myanmar, certain very traditional Burmese Buddhist practices. And so and so I think that's, you know, that really hits it on hits the nail on the head of what we both appreciated about, you know, her sharing her journey and just being really inspiring for I think what was really interesting about this is that I think you could be a meditator, a spiritual traveler of any background, tradition, lineage and hear this and as different as her life is and as different As their choices might be, both in terms of what one's own background is, what one's possibilities are and what one's interests are, I think there's so many ways to enter into this discussion and feel like just as, as she had some measure of freedom and, you know, struggle and critical thinking through through her whole recent journey in robes, it gives pause for a lot of reflection on the decisions and the path that we have, even if the there might be some differences in the actual mode of life. So that was, um, that was great. And and thanks again for for checking in and having this conversation is really great to be able to share those thoughts. And I hope you're doing well there.
1:53:40
Yeah, thank you too. I appreciate it. Okay, great.
1:53:43
Yeah, take care.
1:53:49
You've been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we invite you to rate review and share our podcast as every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar. podcasts on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Additionally, you can listen and download right off the web at www dot Insight myanmar.captivate.fm that's www dot Insight Myanmar one word AI n si gh TMYAN Mar captivate ca p te IV a t.fm. If you cannot find our feed on your podcast player, please let us know and we will ensure it can be offered there. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a post suggest a guest request specific questions and join in on discussions on our Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group and also welcome to join our Facebook and Instagram accounts by the same name Insight Myanmar. If you're not on Facebook, you can also message us directly at Burma dama@gmail.com that's B URMADH ma ma@gmail.com or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that forum. We would also like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible, especially our two sound engineers, Martin combs and darnay along with Zach Hessler, content collaborator and part time co host and Ken pranskey, who helps with editing. We'd also like to thank everyone who assisted us in bringing the guests who have made it the show so far, as well as the guests themselves for agreeing to come and share their stories. Finally, we're immensely grateful to the donors who made this entire thing possible in the first place. We also remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and not necessarily reflective of the host or other podcast contributors. If you find the Dhamma interviews, we are sharing a value and would like to support our mission we welcome your contribution. You may give monthly donations at patreon@www.patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar or one time, don't On paypal@www.paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar in both cases that's Insight Myanmar one word. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation, please feel free to get in touch with us.
1:56:36
Yeah