Transcript for Episode 2: Thabarwa Sayadaw
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Thabarwa Sayadaw, which appeared on January 13, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 02:44
You're about to hear an extended interview with the boss, and I'm thrilled that we can bring it to you. The Burmese Abbot keeps an extremely busy schedule packing more into a day than 20 other sailors can do in a week. So just being granted an audience is no small feat in itself. In fact, we had been in touch in prior weeks with others at the Bible monastery about the possibility of him stopping by, but it was touch and go for a while. Then we suddenly got a message that very morning that said I would agree to come at 11pm in the evening, and intensive day of preparation and several late night cups of coffee. Later, he showed up at midnight with an entourage of about eight nuns in tow. The studio was only large enough for three to join. So those who spoke English sat on the floor beside say it for the duration of the interview. The rest sat cross legged and meditation outside the studio for the duration of the discussion, which was not over until about four o'clock in the morning. Just several days prior to her talk say it I had flown back from London after an extended European tour. And only a few hours after we finished he was driven to the Yangon airport and route to do a meditation retreat he was going to be leading in Vietnam. The four prior days in the country he had spent in constant movement between Delhi in Yangon, Mandalay and pan demands on his time are so strenuous that he fills his night hours with tasks that cannot be put into his daily schedule simply for lack of time. You might expect a person like this who was always moving, meeting so many people with such diverse demands, and being asked to take decisions on so many important matters, to have something of a full mind when you finally Sit down. I know for myself if I have a plane flight plan just a week in advance, I already start getting tense preparing for what I need to have in order. And yet during the four hours we spent talking say it gave his full and complete attention, showing no signs of tiredness and was thoughtful to the myriad questions that were coming his way. After the talk. Several of the nuns were delighted about the path the conversation to take in noting that they had rarely heard, so to speak so extensively about his upbringing and earlier life. This is not to say that we're anywhere near done with the discussion. The subject of say his biography and development is critical to gaining a deeper understanding for how the Bible has developed in recent times. And so this first podcast is devoted exclusively to the topic. In future talks will draw on this background when examining the current mission and the activity of Kabbalah. In other words, this is the first of several more to come. Personally speaking perhaps the most impressive part of meeting Kabbalah say is how detached he truly seems. In spite of his worldwide stature and fame effect that gives away to even some religious leaders gain an ego is humility, patience and gentleness still permeate every interaction from start to finish. You don't feel any hidden agenda lurking behind the words, but rather an intention to empty his own mind as thoroughly as possible, so as to give you the interlocutor free rein in shaping the conversation according to your needs. Although this talk was more a question of his own life and background, you can only imagine how many other disciples use these interactions to pour out their own problems and fears. That said, Let me get out of the way and turn the rest of the episode over to the boss ADA. I hope you enjoy listening Did this talk as much as I did having it? Okay, so I'm joined by the Bible, Isaiah. And thank you so much for being here with us today.
06:57
My pleasure
Host 06:58
and to set the scene so We're in Yangon. And it's about midnight. When you arrived, we heard that you were in the Yangon area. And we were very hopeful you might join us. And we feel very privileged and blessed that you did make time for us. We found out just earlier today that you might have some free time, around 11 or 12. Tonight, so we thought that was worth staying up for. And we're very happy that you were able to join us. And I think this is also a time to talk about your schedule that I think it's not very common that we would try to speak to a say a doubt and the only available time he had would be 11 or 12 o'clock. So I'm curious a little bit about the schedule that you keep.
07:48
I have been traveling around the wall for president three years continuously. I really stay in the center in the country. If I stay in the sender, there are many visitor. So, I have to accept the donation and this term about cause and effect of doing good deeds and then share metrics. Especially in holidays. People are crowded in the sender. So I cannot go out in daytime only at about 10 o'clock at night, I'm free, normal visitor. So I have to go out for DJ at 10 o broad or midnight, Sunday, nearly the whole night. I have to teach from one house to another or one hospital to another. So I have to when I was travel I have to travel at night and then at day die I continuous teaching sometimes even at midnight I have to dis do the fever because I was traveling continuously and there are so many people who are invited to their place in some some day and cannot arrive at a diner. So I have to write their place at midnight and I started DJing. So it used to have been like this for over three years continuously. So how do you get your sleep?
09:43
was after die? I have to see
Host 09:47
how many hours a day do you usually sleep?
09:50
If I am feeling well, about three hours or four hours, if I'm not feeling well? I was asleep, about five or six hours
Host 10:03
and how do you keep your energy level with doing all the activities you do with so little sleep every day,
10:09
because of the belief and support and welcome warmly welcome of the people who invited us because we are also traveling by group, some time over 100 peoples. So, we we can do many things by traveling to get us continuously. We can teach them how to do good deeds together and they are pleased at their country from 2014. The Fate or condition of DevOps and ci to Delhi, more and more people are willing to support us to volunteer to donate to do good deeds together. Whereas That's why, although I am restless, restless, restless, I'm certified, and also to certify to meet with me to learn from me, dude, donate, but they went.
11:19
So, again, sublight Titus.
Host 11:23
And that's also why we really greatly appreciate the time that you've made for us today coming here knowing how much you're doing before and how much you're doing after. So, I think the question many people would have hearing your schedule and everything you pack in a day, that level of responsibility you have and I should say that you arrived here at midnight, very calm, very relaxed. You mentioned that you weren't feeling well, but you seem very strong and present in your answers. And so I think the question people would have How are you able to combine such a high level of activity and constant movement and responsibility and decision making, hour after hour day after day with so little sleep, and to still maintain this presence of mind and body
12:17
because of meditation? Bread is nkansah fully detached from myself. That's why I don't need to think of myself too much. I just need to think of doing what is good. If I have a chance, I have chance to do what is good. I will try to do it. But not only for me, but also for the audience from 2007 the time when the first device and SW as I emphasized on teamwork That is really effective for the people to do know that true to get past reset, or what they went, if you want to help be, they can be healthy, if they want to Long live take me long life, if you want to have good biznet they can have because of doing good deeds together. I grew up in the city, I meditate in the city. So I have many experience about life of people in this city. That's why again, solve many problems of the people in a city for shelter, foods, job, help girl family problems also, I use the power of mindfulness and detachment if I am thinking of myself I can do only which limit but if I am thinking of doing what is good and continues that bird is in my daily life, I can be what I went against solve many problems of the people in the society from the age of 10 years old. I, I stay in yongle update now,
Host 14:28
can you tell us a little bit about your family and upbringing and childhood?
14:32
My father was mining engineer, I might know was a schug Kiba at one of the famous market in Yangon. So my my de emphasized on visanet my father emphasized on education for me, I don't want to get rid of Went to be an educated by sin when I was young. Besides, I love freedom. I know when to work for government like my father, because most of the government servants are not three days limit, whatever they do. So I went to be a da da and I want to help people who are sick, but I cannot go to their medica university because my father was not citizen should my citizenship or where was he from? She is from China.
Host 15:42
The father was from China. My
15:44
my mother
Host 15:45
mother was from China from Mainland
15:47
China Boise. They are Didi upon both my father and my daughters. Were born in Myanmar, but they are my grandfather.
16:01
And gun law from China.
Host 16:04
I see. So although both your parents were born in Myanmar because their parents had immigrated from China, they didn't have proper citizenship and that prevented you from pursuing your dreams in medical school.
16:16
Yes, right.
Host 16:18
Right. So what did you do instead?
16:20
Here's why I choose English major at the University. I also intend to be a teacher, right private teacher, because I love teaching also, because of the conflict between me and my parents, especially with my mother. My father is a government officer. So he is moving from one place to another. When I moved to Django, I have to stay with my mother, right? So I have to help We'd have biznet after a few years of business experience with her, I started to Oban. A small convenience to write at home.
Host 17:14
At what age were you when you did this?
17:16
After I pass? Then Stan that right? About 19 6068. My mother want me to go to Japan at that time, because many people in the country, they went abroad for job, because the business in the country is not good. economically. This was a very difficult time in Myanmar. Yes. But I know when to go to other country for many. Oh, I love education. I went to continues my education that does the test go flit between me and
Host 17:59
mine. Your parents wanted you to go to Japan to make better money and you wanted to stay in Myanmar and teach was it?
18:08
Yes. Right.
Host 18:09
Yes. But and it sounds like it was resolved by opening a business in Myanmar convenience store.
18:15
Yes, because I am no willing to go to another country for job because that is no muss. No musky. In Japan. If we are not educated, we have to work at foods to the
Host 18:34
right still today. This happens there's many poor Burmese that ended up in Japan, Korea, Singapore, working very difficult jobs in factories and making maybe better salaries, but also very difficult working conditions and not able to save much money. So it sounds like instead you stayed in Myanmar at a time where there weren't many economic possibilities and somehow you became somewhat of a successful entrepreneur even in a very difficult financial environment is right.
19:05
Yeah. Right. Because I choose to stay in the country and then I try to open a convenience to the house and I learn new business for me. But my mother was no muss patient to do like this. Because there are many things. We sell many small things at this too. So he didn't like it right buys and continues doing like this and
Host 19:38
why did they not like it?
19:40
Because they are not used to do like this.
Host 19:43
They're not in the business field.
19:45
Yes. D is sell secret on
19:52
the market. So it is easy, no muss thing to do. Right. But for a convenience to There are many things many household goes. And magazine also. So it made them despite it. They have to do a busy or buying for Sally, right? We have to sell many small things. So if I'm not his I was not at home, they have to sell. And that's also the deal like
Host 20:32
so although it was your business because your family was behind you became something of a family business and they had to get involved to help you run it and sounds like a lot of work for them.
20:43
Yes, because the media also right? Yeah. Oh, and not like me, I'm young and can do many things. That's why, in 1993, I decided to leave the In the family to run my own business,
Host 21:05
this so this was a new business you started after the convenience store
21:09
at the same convenience too, but at new place, right. And I have to I have to rent a new place in the mailroom. And then I started my own business by myself with one of their stuff.
Host 21:26
Right. Did you have any business training or experience? No. Right. And it's interesting to say you know, now that Myanmar has opened up there's a lot of new businesses coming out in the last five years but before Myanmar opened in 2012. The business environment was very difficult was very, very difficult without connections and without experience to go into the entrepreneurial field. He
21:51
is a den dynamos supermarket. Only a few Obama get right now. The business is not good and really difficult to get success. But in my view, I'm not satisfied with myself because as, as a man as an educated person, I'm not doing something as much as I went right? To stay with my family is not free. That's why I decided to take a risk
Host 22:34
to take risk to start your own business. Yes, yes. And so did you feel if you were feeling a lack of freedom with your family? Up until 1993? Did you feel some sense of freedom and independence when you started this business by yourself?
22:48
Sure, but it is really dangerous also, because I was a low so I have to rely on myself. Because I run my own business, that's why I'm free. I can do whatever I want. I have to make a decision all the time. Sure. So that is really good training for me to be a real practitioner in biznet. Sure, yeah. Most of the people here don't have that. That chance. They are under the control of their parents or teacher, because they will not run away from the house and family. estate do get.
Host 23:40
They are controlling each other. So what you did was very unusual to go out on your own as an island and strike out with just your own skills and wit his inability and sink or swim. That was something in other Western countries this might not be so unusual, but here this is not an experience that many people have
24:00
Yes right?
24:02
People thing I will get into trouble because I may against with my bearings beside, I'm alone. So I may get married or I may lose in my business but be both thing like this. But I decided to degrees, whatever I have been that's why I have courage sure to lose my life. I will not go back to their family even if I lose in my business. I will I have to encourage myself to do like this because it is unusual in this country
Host 24:58
right. Did you have good relations With your family.
25:01
After I studied meditation, we became united again.
Host 25:06
Right, but it sounds like when you struck out on your own in 1993, the relations maybe were a little difficult to get through yet.
25:13
Yeah, no normal condition is either.
Host 25:19
Right. So you were not just on your own financially and in terms of business, but it sounds like emotionally and psychologically, you were also somewhat on your own at that time. Yes. Right. So from 1993, you started this business and then take us through how the business grew and how are you did as an entrepreneur.
25:39
In the beginning, I don't have enough finance. So I have to borrow from one of my cousin for my business, maybe after a few months, and can give bet because I'm free. And I'm not strange with biznet So, I can do many things in my own business. Right. So it developed quickly.
Host 26:09
So it was successful.
26:10
Yes. Right. It developed quickly and I can sell many things, many new things, right? Even drugs, watch watch or gloves and also close. Close. It's his chain to be small, minimal get
Host 26:30
so the business was doing well from 1993 and it sounds like you were having some measure of success. And how did that make you feel?
26:40
I can buy an apartment at studies street 1998 I can, again is there in my business by my friends. They went do share. Do you want to participate? in demand to invest in my business, because there is success in my own business. So many people rely on me, that make me proud of myself. That is the biggest problem because it is very real to get such a light is within
27:25
five years, I cannot
27:29
control my mind that that is the beginning of phasing with problems in my business
Host 27:38
when you say you can't control your mind what was happening that you couldn't control.
27:43
I think highly of myself and I'm, I'm being greedy
27:53
and also angry.
27:56
I think I can do
27:59
everything thing with my biznet that does why I make mistakes.
Host 28:06
I say
28:08
because I'm not thinking of the audaces because of ignorance, greed and anger. In my mind, I cannot believe my my I did die because it changed a lot. As a child, I'm not much gradient angry. But as a businessman, I became greedy and I went to my manufacturer to produce my own products. But at the time, there was problems in my business. Some of the things are stolen, but I cannot find out the bison concern that made me beside it. make mistake by choosing one of their stuff as a diff. But when I made that mistake, I came to understand that that is wrong because of his response. But again, no fi who is the person concerned that make me disappointed with myself. I need to learn more. I'm not complete yet. That is right view.
Host 29:33
Right so it sounds like the rapid success of your business led to a de stability ization of mind an unbalance of mind that itself led to the business not doing well and making mistakes with that unbalanced mind. And at this time, have you had any experience with meditation or with Dhamma? Do you have any contact? No
30:01
But after facing with difficulty in my business, I have Chen's
30:08
do go to
Host 30:10
one of their meditation retreat. And I should ask you your background, what was your parents religion?
30:16
Traditional Buddhism, okay, so
Host 30:18
they were from, although they were from China, because they were born in Myanmar, they were raised with a traditional Burmese sense of Buddhist identity in practice.
30:27
Yes, Bama is a Buddhist country. That's why we will who stay here.
30:34
Do you have to believe in Buddhism?
Host 30:36
So your parents in the local? Yes, they came, right. So you had a traditional religious Buddhist background, but maybe not deeper touch with the Dhamma. So you were familiar with the concepts, but not with the actual practice? It sounds like
30:51
I was invited to one of the five days meditation retreat. My manager is Interested in religion? That's why I decided to go together,
Host 31:06
what year was the retreat? Your 1999 So your first meta, so just to track the days, that 93 was when you struck out on your own with business 98 was where you achieved some measure of success, but then started to also decline due to the unbalanced mental state and the 99 was when you took your first meditation course. Yes, right. And what tradition was that
31:31
mogul? Mohawk, I have to learn from all monk who is teaching who has been teaching Magomed that for many years, he is teaching not only by once, but also by practice. He is not under estimate. He did not under estimating me because although I I was yen and new Buddha meditations and he treated me as environmental in nature. We are the same. No I know you know, not all noggin, not monk, not late bison, just ever new environment and nature. He tricked me like that at the first meeting with him that made me amaze. Because in the society I have never experienced like this.
32:43
I had about
32:46
environment in nature and nature dhoka nada, but just what not bread is only at the meditation center. I have To experience by myself, the bread is of the ultimate truth in the beginning of my bread is I'm not successful. I cannot say stay, even for five minutes. I have to keep preset. But because of my own experience, I like to keep preset, although I'm not, must give you to keep reset. I'm certified to practice mindfulness or meditation. Although I'm not skiffle, my own experience, make me certify to continues that breath is right, more and
Host 33:50
more. One thing I find interesting and hearing your story is that there's parallels to two other great Burmese meditation teachers. You talk about Working in the marketplace earlier in your life, and that reminds me of say a dotasia Nia who also came from a market background and talks about his experiences of practicing mindfulness in a very busy marketplace and you also came out of that. And then you come to talking about feeling disillusioned and mentally unbalanced due to your business activity. And of course, that reminds me of sn Goenka who famously went to his first meditation course because of a terrible migraine that nothing would cure. So it's interesting thinking about these parallels that you had with at least two other biographies of other great meditation teachers that came from this country. Yes,
34:47
I also went to going godsend, so that made me encourage, because he can change his life from a businessman to soulful meditation teacher.
Host 35:03
Right? So that story identified you identified with his experience of being a businessman with too much stress and learning how to come out of it through meditation. Yes. Right. So it sounds like you would have this traditional Burmese Buddhist experience, but never really touching the Dhamma in a profound way. That was life changing until this five day mogul course in 1999. So take us through the next several years of what what was your, your experience with meditation with Dhamma with teachers during this time and how did this affect you and your business and your life and your psychology because of my own experience about meditation? I became interested in Buddha Dhamma and Sangha.
35:54
Seriously, right. That's why in two dogs in Bell, Julian Waddell festival. I already
Host 36:06
just took a very short time from your first mobile course to wanting to ordain and then what other types of meditation courses Did you go to
36:15
numeral meditation qubes
36:20
for four months, because I don't meditate at home after coming back from my first day meditation retreat. But first meditation retreat is not full time. I just go about one hour listening meditation, one hour listening, the motto and one hour friend is a meditation only, or I don't sleep at a meditation center. But I cannot forget about my own experience. about meditation. I like that experience. I like to meditate to get preset to use my life for the MA or meditation that made me decide to ordain as a monk for five days.
Host 37:18
So in 2000, your ordination was temporary.
37:21
Yes, only five days.
Host 37:22
I see. I see, right.
37:24
The first ordination in my life.
Host 37:27
I see. So it's traditional and Burmese Buddhist society to ordain when you're younger as a child, so you never had that experience?
37:34
Yes. When I was young, I'm I was not interested to ordain. So I rejet do odd a Why were you not interested? Because I'm not. I'm not interested in religion. Right. I interested in education. I think religion is not necessary for me when I was young, Rarely read about Buddhist literature. I read many books not religion, that is my misunderstanding about religion.
Host 38:09
So you were pursuing knowledge of many different kinds, but not the spiritual kind of knowledge.
38:14
Yes, right. Only by my own experience about meditation, I became interested there, do ordain, I want to know, I want to taste, I want to design the life of a monk.
Host 38:32
So and how did that experience feel those five days
38:35
and that die. I have to read about the wynia
Host 38:40
amongst discipline, yes, the 227 precepts of the monk so you have to learn these during your five day ordination.
38:47
Yes, I did was also five day meditation retreat. So I meditate day after day and also, I learned about disciplining after murder. It made me interesting,
Host 39:02
how is this affecting your attitude towards your business at the time after
39:08
temporary ordination I started to meditate daily one hour at house in the beginning it is difficult because noisy right my apartment is near the bus station. So, noise of the spare the shouting for the bus and beside the electricity is not stable. So, there are generator right when electricity is out. So it is noisy or noisy. Yes, yes,
Host 39:49
Burmese bus conductors are also known to be very noisy too. Yes, yes. So that's so you had a lot of worldly distractions as you were trying to go inside. Yes,
39:58
but I have no tries so I tried to overcome that difficulty and I can meditate. Every morning, I also went to the meditation retreat often beside I started, I started a foundation, a small Foundation, by free disk by free distribution about the mailbox and Mr. CD or my teaching, I went to the meditation center, and then I bought both and teaching, and then I rent for free in my shot, right?
Host 40:37
So in a country like Myanmar, where there's an absence of libraries, it can sometimes be hard for people to have access to reading material. So sometimes people such as yourself, set up a local community library or personal library, in this case, a Dhamma library, where anyone was free to come and access those books. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's wonderful. Um, one thing I'm curious about is if you can share a little about which meditation centers you were going to which practices you were learning and how the different practices were affecting you.
41:10
After opening a small shot or the marbles and beaching I was donated, donate days are da da books and teaching, especially thing medet solo method and also mahasi method.
Host 41:27
So it sounds like you practice a lot of the different techniques you practice you've already referenced Mogok, Goenka. soum luen bamboo mahasi I learned
41:37
I learned Tango medex Oh, no method mozzie method but I don't read this. I'm Brad this moment that I am missing the addition of Tango CRR when I am not willing to marry date,
Host 41:54
yes, because he had a very his teaching was very severe and very is yet very intense. Yes. So when you have laziness, you you stay in good to motivate you.
42:04
Yes, there's I use
42:07
to motivate myself, right in meditation, but it is really useful when I listen about
Host 42:14
his teaching, right? They say thank you center. Sometimes they would tie the legs of the meditators so that they physically would not be able to move for 1234 hours. Yes, yeah. So that that's a very, very severe teaching is but for me, I I love wisdom. I used to think a lot for me it is to do with mogul method, teaching of mogul Sierra is about the true of meditation, right? He can explain a lot. There's a lot of theory and mogul method more than the other methods. There's a real focus on understanding things intellectually and theoretically. with the understanding that a deeper intellectual knowledge will lead to a deeper meditative experience. Yes. Yeah. So So I understand you liked Mogok for the intellectual explanations and you liked they in goo for the seriousness and intensity of meditation. How about some of the others?
43:24
Lady medet going Gaga and CIA backing. It is also useful also to do bredis systematically. So I went down the retreat in the Balkans and I am yes empty and also then do retreat in going guys and
Host 43:48
in Yama. And did you practice lady say it at a separate center or just through IMC and going
43:56
no, read this in ladies and gentlemen Read this only move again and going gas and
Host 44:05
right and what did you appreciate about that experience? they emphasize
44:09
to be system medic. So it is suitable especially for the foreigners. I have to learn from them from the teaching and retreat. I have to learn a lot that make me after the retreat at going down Santa, I can successfully make a decision to use my belongings and apartment and gas. One of the other died is to go but I have to sell one of the car and then give back for the debt. After I did, I decided no more biznet just continues to bread Seriously,
Host 45:01
and it was the Goenka course that yes, confirm that decision in you. Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like each of these different teachings and wisdoms from the different centers all gave you different tools and strategies to work with. They all had a different gift that they gave you.
45:21
Yes,
Host 45:22
yeah. And that should be said, this is one of the advantages and blessings of being in Myanmar is that you're able to learn these different interpretations and methods of the Buddha that people are teaching today. This is not something easily found in other countries. Yes, yes. One question, did you did you ever feel confused or overwhelmed that you were practicing different kinds of techniques at the same time because there is an advice out there, that one should stick with just one technique only and that practicing More than one technique at a time or regularly could lead to some kind of confusion during the practice, so did did. It sounds like you were having a full toolbox of a lot of different teachers and techniques. So did you find any sense of confusion and doing a lot of things at the same time? What do you think about that concern? No.
46:24
For me, I emphasize on wisdom besides because of running my own business for over 70 years for over seven years continuously. I have the ability to, to work seriously. Because Besides, within seven years of my own business experience, I have to make a lot of decision that made me that made me developed foot in intelligence and Physical DVDs. So when I started to learn about the design of mogo CRR I don't have much difficulty. I can understand a lot. But what I need is to practice seriously. That's why I have to listen the vision of dangled Sierra, right. It made me and Gary's right to bredis seriously to meditate for long hours, maybe I love I love wisdom does why I'm intelligent enough to to use his method in the right way. If I started, if I am not mass intelligence, I may produce only one tradition because I am intelligent enough. That's why I can clarify the witness and good boys have is made that so although I meditate at going to sender I was learn to produce only one method, but I'm read this boat
Host 48:17
more and more than both sounds like you practice several many hands.
48:21
yeah yes right because edale were cheese, I follow their guidance right I retreat you guys read this by myself also. So, that is not usual for most of the metadata but for me, I believe in my bread is. So that is they are suggestion to follow only one tradition will now be fed that to me, because I understand more because I emphasize wisdom. Then system for going down medet the emphasize to be systematic for Haji medet, the emphasized Buddhist teacher for Zentangle. Madame de emphasized the legions, Maria Maria de emphasized effort. effort, yes. But for me, I emphasize on wisdom that's why I can understand many things. Compare with the other trees around medida does. So
49:33
no no problem for me.
Host 49:35
So, how did this all affect your business? What did you you you mentioned after going to retreat you had the strong volition to to sell one of your cars and apartments. I think you said what ended up happening with your business as you kept along developing deeper and Dhamma still as a layperson at that point, people I meditate I have programs
50:01
In my business, but of producing meditation regularly, I came to understand that I can, if I continue doing this, I can get myself in business because of the power of mindfulness and detachment. But at the DI, I already experience a lot about biznet. So, to get success in business is not strings for me. But I don't know, what is the session sense of meditation, right? If I emphasize, to breath this meditation Seriously, what will happen? I'm not sure.
Host 50:48
Right. So that was the next mystery.
50:50
Yes, there will be many good things, but again, not imaging. That's why I decided to emphasize Aside on meditation by my own experience,
Host 51:04
right so it sounds like during these years you were still a lay person, you were still caught in a business life. You were practicing different Myanmar based traditions of meditation in the country and you were having a daily meditation practice while still being somewhat involved in the business. So at some point, you obviously made the decision to seek a more permanent ordination and also a more absolute renunciation of that life and when did that happen?
51:39
I've come in bed from going God sender. I am bread is seriously at my apartment at studies streak. But unfortunately, the weather is not good. It is some very hot very hot, yes. So it is difficult to get close. And because of the weather, the mind is not stable. That is not the right time to produce seriously. But it continues to eat less and less and to sleep less and less at my own apartment. The result is I I lose my health. I I cannot breed for very well. I became very dire when I walk. So I have to go to the delta and after medica Chekhov, I end game to know that I have been suffering. dB Jeeva grow sick. Oh, yes. It's very serious. Yes. Because it's have brand new things seriously with less food and less rest. It makes me lose my health was too intense. Yes, but I did die. I know when to stop my bread is so I decided to continue step bread is even if I die that is also make me and you to lose my life for meditation. What happened when you receive the TB diagnosis at the time my father was staying only in Myanmar, my mother and brought us already went abroad. When he heard about my disease, he want me to take treatment But in the beginning, I don't obey him. But he became very angry. Because of her anger. I decided to do a treatment for segments before I meditate. I'm done. Again not emphasize on the mind. When I meditate, I came to understand that the mind is the most embody. That's why I emphasize to fulfill the need after my death Why? I don't want my father to be angry all the time because of not making me dizzy. So I decided to do a treatment and ice. I've got treatment. I have to start my practice because the side effect is strong and cannot Meditate, I have to eat a lot and sleep a lot to get more weight to be healthy to enjoy the side effects of medicine also right? Very serious medicine. Yes.
Host 55:17
And then after you recovered what decision did you make next?
55:21
I've got a segments of the game the design, the doubt, decide as to continues to remain small. But I'm was not patient enough. That's why I take my disease and go do the validations and we'll go send that broker. I'm bredis by the gima dizzy at the end retreat of logo sender after dead I'm, I'm certified with mine bredis and I decided to be a monk after 10 months later Is this that you did full ordination? It was in 2002. I decided in favor. I decided in the beginning of 2002. And then at September 2002, I became a monk.
Host 56:20
And you've been in robes since that time.
56:23
Yes.
Host 56:24
Were you. Have you been married? Or have you been in a relationship? You'll know.
56:29
Because I'm was interested in education after dead. I was interested in business. So I am not. I'm not much free to think of marriage,
Host 56:47
marriage. So that wasn't something you had to give up for ordination.
56:51
Yes.
Host 56:52
Then in 2004 you became a big guru. He became a full monk and Take us from that time that you were a full monk into your arrival in Delhi in when what is now at the VA, as I'm told was very rural swampy, wild land. How did you get from 2000 for ordination to the dozen due to that, so excuse me 2002 ordination to eventually ending up in then land.
57:29
As soon as I became a monk, I got an idea to these to do mind devotees who can for ordination ceremony, so IDs after ordination ceremony, I did Stan guided meditation, about half an hour, my preset monk experience mind teaching and He subject me if you are able to teach you can teach at his ministry. That's why I started teaching a few days after my ordination ceremony aptina right. And where were you living in 2002 when you ordained Where was your monastery at that time and onesti was in themefuse St. themefuse streak is ideal for demands continuously after dead, I have to move to one of the Ummah Hall, which is belong to the township, mainland down with this belong to one of a group of liberal in Yama, desde Maha, nearly in every streak or every Township, so I was invited to desta so I continuous teaching Yeah, please do leave for years continuously. I've got dead again sensor fully established for the History Center. Right? I did most of most of the die at our 45th Street center.
Host 59:13
45th Street center was a dama hall or a monastery or apartment what was it meditations and was a meditation center?
59:22
Yes, it has a abutment it is big enough to do Oban ascender one a badman is about 25 by 60 feet again by do do get out so it is 50 by 60 feet, Mr. Hall
Host 59:41
and this is thimpu Street. So this is basically downtown Yangon. Yes, near to labor go nursery pagoda. So this is kind of for people who have never been here. This is kind of the heart. Central Yang gone, so you're in the West. Often they establish these meditation centers and rural areas of nature and quiet and Your meditation center was an apartment complex in the center of very busy Yangon. So this was somewhat unusual.
1:00:08
Yes, yeah. Yeah. Please is no must crowded at that die because it was a short Street. Not too long. Beside days also government government belongings, so no high rise building denser school, government school and please office like there are so that the street is not no less crowded. That's why I choose that place to establish meditations and but now it became crowded,
Host 1:00:43
right? How many people ended up coming there
1:00:46
and as far as meditations and they are nearly 200 people can stay there.
Host 1:00:54
There was one apartment complex Is that right?
1:00:57
It was a story building history. Building with cystic abutment at that building and we bought eight apartment half of the building.
Host 1:01:08
So half was residential apartments with families still living there and half was meditation center. Yes, yes. Right. So your meditation center was happening his daily life around was taking place.
1:01:21
Yes, sir. All right. It is really successful because people have no idea to open a meditation center like this right? But it is very easy to do go there. So many people can invalidate and adapt meditations and
Host 1:01:44
right so this was 2002 and 2007 2007. So 2002 you were deigned?
1:01:51
Yes and five years teaching by myself. Not Not my own meditation, Sanda I was I have been teaching at a house and hospital where I was invited. Only after five years continuous teaching again successfully established my own meditation center in downtown of the angle.
Host 1:02:20
So from 2007 you started your, your downtown meditation center in half of an apartment complex. Yes. Right. Yeah. From 2007. How many years did that progress where you continued? And was it 10 Pew street where you are? Okay. 35th Street 45th Street. So 40 it was a 45th Street meditation center in 2007.
1:02:43
Yes, right. does send was crowded within us humans.
Host 1:02:48
How many people?
1:02:50
Nearly 200 people 200 people he has again stayed
1:02:55
for London. Wow. That's why we have to think of another Please.
Host 1:03:00
So they're sleeping, they're bathing they're eating, they're meditating. They're getting Dhamma instruction. Yes, yeah.
1:03:08
But the price at downtown is expensive varies by yes we can know by many abutment, so I have to think of not a sender in another location and that was the new sender. Yes. So it started in 2008 because of the need of a monk and the die, day there is buying cost to the government by the month also because of involving in holidays the man's get into trouble. The monastery are not allowed amongst to stay on or to not allow the man's Germans have difficulty to stay at the monastery. Because if the monastery has set the monks who are doing politics, they will get into trouble. That's why many months can do our center at Daniel, Danny. They also can do for the fist, relativistic center,
Host 1:04:25
right if we can back up just a moment because I'm not clear on how you actually got to them then. So 2007 was when you started the 45th Street center is the end of 2007. I think it was maybe September October 2007 when the SAS revolution, sorry,
1:04:45
for the History Center was established in July 2000 2007.
Host 1:04:52
Right and I think it was was it October 2007 when the saffron revolution started, maybe September October. So the Saturday The saffron revolution. We can look that up later the saffron revolution, in any case started only several months after you began your, your 45th Street center. And then a half a year later, there was Cyclone Nargis, which was another cataclysmic event that happened to young gone. So how did how did these events affect your teaching in your downtown meditation center?
1:05:26
Because of the political quizzes? We have to blues for the fistrick Center about a demons.
Host 1:05:37
So so soon after starting your own meditation center, just a few months later, you have to close it for a year and a half.
1:05:44
After one years later, the government falls to close this and because there are many people in this and it is really dangerous, right for the government wasn't
Host 1:05:57
meeting health codes. So yeah, so The safety of the people was cannot be guaranteed. So yeah, right right. So what did you do then?
1:06:06
I have to, I have to move to Delhi. All the people that Oh, and some of the sick people have to move to Daniel. Daniel sand was established in August, August of 2008, maybe two years later, not one year after, after two years later, we have to close for the fistrick. sander and then everyone in this ENDA move to dalyan Center,
Host 1:06:42
right. So you're you're in 45th Street, which is downtown, but it's also overcrowded. It's a health risk. It might be convenient, but it's overcrowded with people. And then you go to Dan Lee and then for people who have never been to me and Mark, can you describe where Dan lien is? Located in relation to Yangon downtown which is where you were before
1:07:06
then is different from jungle because
1:07:11
it is is a river
1:07:16
being done in any angle yeah Yangon river is so the weather is different and now must have a look at that die at Danny. There's a famous Buddha Jacob, Jacob Buddha at Delhi. So I was donated about three acres of land at Danny maybe in two dogs in sick dogs in sick but I I use that place only in 2008 because of problems
1:08:01
In for Devi stick,
Host 1:08:02
right. Right. So you had been given this land before, but only now that you have a use for it. Yes. And so to reach Stanley in from downtown, you have to go across the bridge across Yangon river across some some of the young gun canals. And then after crossing the bridge you have to drive 3045 minutes about Yep. So So after crossing the bridge and leaving the ngon you have to go another 3045 minutes to reach this land which you were donated. Yeah, so it was really outside of city limits. Yes, in the last 10 years. The state of Yangon and the areas outside of Yangon have really changed dramatically. Can you describe what situation you found in 2009 when you move to your new environment? in Yangon? No. And then Liam? Yeah, what was it like them? It must have been very wild and rural and lack of facilities I imagine. There are many meditations
1:09:01
In Delhi that's why there's no mud, big land in downtown often. So, only the checkout Buddha where they are big land the price are also cheaper insight on the main road it is expensive but inside it is cheap. So I have to choose that place because that area is not not developed
Host 1:09:37
something so what was it like moving yourself and all these people and living on undeveloped land were you living in buildings were you living in nature? were you living in bamboo huts? What How are you living at those times?
1:09:52
Only bamboo half because we are ident we don't have money. Must Die. So we need to make bamboo hard. I gently and we have to move the Bieber from 40 fistrick to
1:10:11
Danny, how many people were you moving 150 150 people, and these were all meditators.
1:10:20
At the die, most of the people are no most interested in meditation, because the country is not stable. So the it is difficult to meditate, but they have problems to stay in the society as why most of the people that die are people in need of hell, for shelter, food, that is not much metadata.
Host 1:10:49
I see. So these were the people that were living in the 45th Street meditation center and that moved to the new compound and deadly and most of the people at this point we're not mad at taters but people that didn't have anywhere else to turn,
1:11:02
it is really dangerous in the society that die, it is better to stay in their meditations and even if they are not meditating.
Host 1:11:13
So they were staying for safety. Yes, right. Right. So you moved with these hundred and 50 people to a very rural and undeveloped land urgently where there weren't even any buildings. No facilities, yes, probably no electricity,
1:11:29
no electricity, but fortunately we get electric from the army
Host 1:11:35
beside and running water. Did you have water at the time?
1:11:38
Not very good at that time later, after a few years, we get we can we get good water results from underground. Most of the water will not normally nom nom is good.
Host 1:11:58
Right? So it was not Easy living conditions of address Yes, right
1:12:02
no trees.
1:12:05
So, it is difficult no bid tree and no good roads, most of the house are just small hogs, they are not educated, they don't have regular job. So, do the dye offend board Ghanian or dr fighting most of the guy sounds like very difficult. Yes, sure
Host 1:12:31
your followers are fighting with each other,
1:12:33
because we are teaching here, but the villagers are shouting each other or fighting each other idea had right so we It is common. They cannot control by themselves or do they stay in the Either monks and nuns anybody do does does why it is really difficult to survive in Delhi center in the beginning of the center, but we we have no choice because there are many problems in most of the place after countries are so, we trying to survive right by ourselves by doing good deeds together. We have to support do the villagers also by going enthrall and by ascending and descending, if they are sick, again knock you out by themselves. So we have to help them for what they need. That's why we can do many great things at Delhi. Not not Not like that, at 45th Street 45th Street Center. This downtown area has limit. Yes, not everyone can see the good a dunlins. stallion center is not in downtown often in the outskirt of Tallinn. So most of the families there are homeless interval with job
Host 1:14:30
and help. So you had space and room to expand fair? Yes. So who so you you come there with 150 people that are in many of whom are in difficult situation come to a place that's wild and lacking facilities lacking building and live next to villagers that themselves are having problems and arguments and fighting and what happens next
1:15:00
After one and a half years later, we we reopened for different streaks and again, we can meet with a donor at four different stick in the beginning of Daniel senda. Most of the people don't want to physic to the sender,
Host 1:15:22
the people from the 45th Center 45th Street meditation center don't want to visit them then. You mean
1:15:29
do now also but no choice that's why they have to move for the history right but for the dunas at downtown the don't do GM do Danny is far away so I have to receive their donation at four different states and right so you're in trouble. It is also it is good to have for district center. Before Daniel sender develop. We have nodes tries no other choice does why we emphasize to do good deeds more and more as Daniel Sanda although there are many difficulties with continuous doing good deeds and in the blog, slow and steadily, only after of CDs later 2014 and in sand became stable because of the media in 2012. Then media again right,
Host 1:16:40
freely country opened up at that time. Yes, so the there is a state sensor that resigned that position and free press was allowed more than it had been previous to 2012. So that opening of the country affected your center. Sheila hmm and when you say Your state your center was not stable in what ways was life unstable and friendly and before 2012 2014 2014 in what ways when you say that there was instability? How did that instability manifest?
1:17:17
Yeah many problems between is either many complaints to the government also for government
Host 1:17:25
complained about or center.
1:17:29
Some of the people may robot to the government, we are opening this and illegally we are making building without permission. We we are fighting each other in this and that kind of a message sent to the government. That's why we are we are unstable. People in the sand have to worry what will have been Tomorrow, nothing issue. When you
Host 1:18:03
moved in 2009, you mentioned there was a population of 150. How did the population increase or be affected as time went on? Did more people come?
1:18:16
Yes, people are coming continuously, but not, not to support us, but to refuse in the sender to do what to refuse
Host 1:18:29
to take refuge to do remember, we're coming as a refuge, what kinds of people were taking refuge,
1:18:35
especially demands and all the sick, they cannot survive by themselves in the society. So the heart about the sender and the gaming all the time. We have to essaybot although we don't have enough, shall we We have to make temporary building all the time.
Host 1:19:04
How how, what kind of numbers? Are we talking about how many people were coming in at this time? You're talking dozens or hundreds or what exactly
1:19:16
the number of the population at Daniel center is developing all the die. Within a few years, that doodle population arrived about
1:19:31
nearly 2000.
Host 1:19:34
So you went from 150 people? Yeah. So 2000 people in just a few years? Yes. Right. And these were people that were not coming so much to support your mission, but people who needed to be taken care of, for because of disease because of old age because of some other problem because some people were actually in the state of dying. It became something of a hospice center as well. Yes. And also, as I've heard many people with mental illness, yes. which then can you say something about how his mental illness regarded in Myanmar society?
1:20:16
itself then Linda patients are sent to mental hospital. At the hospital, they have to take drugs. They have to stay there for a few days. Only after the beginning stable, they can come back to the house to the home to their family. That is not his new choice. no other choice whether they want to stay or not. They have to stay at a mental hospital. Where are they want to take medicine or not? They have to take music. That is not really work. So, in our center, we accept all kinds of people, including Mandela, patient, to lead. They are my to be Stever and viewer. They are free at our center to do what they when they are not free in this society.
Host 1:21:24
And so as you're welcoming all these hundreds and even thousands of people, what was the reaction at the time what was the reaction of the villagers of the government? What What was the general reaction for all these new people now coming in
1:21:43
the first reaction was concerned with the people in the center. They don't want to welcome the sick people. And Amanda beige and very difficult Yes, but I have to explain them it is necessary to do they are in great need of hell. So if we take it off then we can get great debt metrics and we can get success you can get set in our shop.
Host 1:22:27
Right and can you say Is this normal or unusual in a Myanmar monastery to welcome these kinds of people
1:22:36
in most of the well known meditations and there are many rules and regulation so on sick people, Amanda visioned are not allowed to read this and this and right because of my own experience, above Meditation, I came to understand that meditation is for all, especially for the sick Biba. So I want to
1:23:14
correct that mistake.
1:23:17
That's why I emphasize to open meditations and especially for the sick people. Right? That is essential. That is really great things to do, and got many benefits because of the lightness
Host 1:23:37
and did the was the government in support of these people that were now coming in that you were providing refuge for.
1:23:45
The former government was not much interested to help people in need, but the new governmentis working for the people.
Host 1:24:02
I mean, initially when all these people were coming to your center, this was something very unusual for monasteries and meditation centers at the time. So I'm curious about how the local officials and the government responded to so many people in need. taking refuge in a meditation center, what was the reaction as this was growing from 150 to 2000, and more people
1:24:31
and that died. Many people in this society think about us and that down is not a good place. Because no muss medidata jazz or in sick, B ba and mandeb vision. Some are alcoholics and drug addicts. They are there are many big views about this and in the society and We are difficult to certified if the heart about the boss and they think, really bad plays, we cannot solve the problems. Oh, we have to do good deeds by Allah itself,
1:25:21
right?
Host 1:25:23
So you don't really have a lot of support or outside understanding to the mission that you're trying to achieve. Yes. I think one story that I heard at the time was that there was a repeated attempt by the authorities to have the people that were taking refuge they're taken out and but the problem was there was nowhere else for them to go. So there was a desire for them to not be allowed to go there, but they had no support. Lucian where else they could go. So, there was nothing that could ever happen,
1:26:05
maybe damn many programs concerned with the government, I myself also I have to accuse many things my decision is wrong, it changes now not try. And I was not obeying the senior monks who would used to reverse some of the laypeople, the land from me in the beginning. But when they are children came to meditate with me, the children are more intelligence, so they practice seriously. So, they became nouns and food metadata as they cannot endure. They cannot lose their children. That's fine. The They make problems to me To this end, in mind side, I'm helping people who meditate, not to go in the wrong way to get success in meditation, but people are thinking highly of themselves. So, the grisby What do you understand? So don't be cannot accept the boss and because of welcoming everyone to stay in descend for the Biba no muss problem for the NP. There's problem for the parents,
Host 1:27:43
right? So you had difficulty with the villagers that live next to you you had difficult with the authorities that didn't want to give you permission for you for what you were doing. And it sounds like you also had difficulties with other Buddhists or monks who didn't accept that even what you were teaching was authentic. So, it sounds like you you really had difficulties and challenges coming from every single area from which it could come.
1:28:15
Yes. How did
Host 1:28:16
you persevere? How did you manage
1:28:20
and cannot stop to send? I cannot stop teaching because many people are relying on the sender in online teaching because of my teachings. They can Angela, they can survive because of great benefit and continues teaching and opening the center because of not stopping my job. There are more complaint to the government.
Host 1:28:54
What did people complain about?
1:28:56
into dogs in dogs into
1:29:01
one of the government officer rerport, to the senior Thabarwa center is opening illegally and making construction without permit. It is really dangerous many people are staying at the center also that's why it is really dangerous for the politics because of that report and government decide to close the center. So they came to the center, many officers from different environments: the police or the authorized person, in township and also the authorized monks. The meet together at the center, they are trying to close this and but the monks cannot accept that idea because they know many people in the sender have no place to go so if the roosters and and drive them away the issue are to die industry presser so if if it had been like this, the man's has responsible the buying killing the people. So that is really big because
1:30:43
we need
Host 1:30:44
it sounds like a very dramatic scene you had police and government officials from all different departments. You have senior monks and member of the Sangha, and they're all coming together in mass on one day to close the center down and kick everyone out. Yes, sir. What happened? Yes, but they didn't. Yeah. So how how did that get avoided the government office
1:31:08
such as to report to the government, people are leaving the sender. So only 1000 people mail may still remain like that about 100 Bieber lifters and this week and next week another hundred we will leave the guide us and to report to the government like this in this way. They can also report to their governments government, they are in operation to close this.
Host 1:31:41
And is that what happened? Yes,
1:31:43
but that's what happened. No, no, just just robots. No. So just not as in right, no accident just be bought here in this country. They just liked it.
Host 1:31:55
They just wanted to see the paperwork.
1:31:57
Yes. Yeah, no mistake. Getting gelf real condition and then the problem went away.
1:32:04
Yes.
1:32:06
Right. Because I think you have to go and seek the bell does why Oh, and CB ba they gave me this. I'm, I brought that them. That's why they brought that me and of ours and this is cause and effect if I'm not protesting OSAP but there will be no device and for sure. So it is doing good. This is really essential, really powerful.
Host 1:32:39
And you had mention that something very interesting that when the country started to open up 2012 2014 the availability of freedoms in the press helped your center to survive. So can you say more about that? How did the Free Press help you
1:33:01
before the Free Press, there is no news about Thabarwa center. Although there is Thabarwa in Than Lyin, the local authorities cannot report to the government because if they report we we cannot survive. But they understand me, they know what we are doing there is really good for the people in need. That's why you cannot allow us legally but they cannot reject. That's why the the allow us to do by ourselves.
Host 1:33:50
somehow you're able to surviving. But I'm also curious how did the Free Press help you you you mentioned that when the country started to open up and newspapers had more control over what they wrote. That was a major transformation in your centers activity. I think you said 2012 was when they started to open up in 2014 was when you felt, I don't remember the word you use some kind of safe safety or stability. I think you said I think you said before 2014 you had constant instability and after 2014 because of the Free Press, you started to enjoy greater stability. So I'm wondering what connection that has,
1:34:31
when there is writing about Thabarwa Center, in the beginning of their writings about the Thabarwa Center in journal or newspaper, the message is wrong, because we answer the actual condition but people in the society, even the journalists, they have no idea about this kind of meditation center. That's why Although we answer the truth, they cannot understand very well and they are writing is like the other meditation centers. Because they used to know about the meditations centers like that, that's why when they write about Thabarwa Center, they write the same as traditional meditation center. But time after time, more and more journalists come to the center of they came to know more about Thabarwa center and they can write effectively, more and more in 2014, one of the famous jouralists, write about Thabarwa center, but he's writing on behalf of the people who are staying in the center. He is no writing as a reporter, he is writing as the people who take refuge in the center. So it is really effective and people who reach about that message
Host 1:36:14
for there's one specific article
1:36:17
Yes, yes. Read broke through dad made that people to to help their own sibling in the center
Host 1:36:27
right so that's so this one article was the breakthrough that you were looking for?
1:36:31
Yes Right. Many people knew about this center especially for the old and sick people, there are many quantity and they are in need of help. There's because of that article, some other journalists and TV station they take news from the center and continues one after another and one more people are coming to this end to support as much as take.
Host 1:37:14
Right, right. And do you think this kind of Article could have been written before? 2012 or not possible
1:37:21
in before 2012?
Host 1:37:23
Could an article like this appear? Or would it not be possible to write an article like that? In pharma?
1:37:30
he asked. The government will not allow the writer to write about the trouble of the people in their country. So because of the Free Press, people have a chance to know the truth about their country and people.
Host 1:37:53
right. So as the country opens up, and most people know that it opened up very recently. We Know about the effects that's had on business and imports and technology and education and some of these other things. But this is very interesting, because you're saying that the, the effect that the country opening up had on the monastery was also very profound. And that you're monitoring monastery was actually doing this before the country opened up, but no one knew about it. And support was very difficult. And you were in a very stressful situation of not knowing if you could last another day. But once that opening happened, it allowed actual factual reporting of what was happening. And once people started to learn about it and know about it, they also wanted to support it and that the society becoming freer was of great help for you in the survival and stability of the monastery.
1:38:57
Right. Very interesting for us. 12 years of very experience of DevOps and is very short time because many interesting things are happening all the times and we we don't know how fast the time is
1:39:19
running. We have a busy much. Yeah. Yes.
Host 1:39:48
I hope you enjoyed the interview as much as I did. There's a lot in that discussion to unpack and for those less familiar with the passionate meditation or Burmese Buddhism monasticism Burmese history and the current state of Myanmar today, some parts of the talk might be worth reflecting on a bit more. For that reason, I'm going to connect with my good friend Zack Kessler and share some thoughts about the discussion you just heard. Zack has quite a bit of experience in the golden land from intensive meditation retreats and pilgrimages to work assignments and for three years as a forest monk, so he has quite a bit of background to draw upon and catching the deeper themes involved in the talk, and bringing them in for consideration. We hope that this reflection will provide listeners a broader context in which to place the content that you've just heard. Zach is currently living in rural Thailand and will just give a quick Skype Call now to check in with him.
1:40:55
Hey, Zack, are you there?
Zach 1:40:56
Yeah. How you doing, Joe?
Host 1:40:58
Yeah, I'm doing well. How's how's life, treating They're in Thailand.
Zach 1:41:01
Yeah. Well, you know, I've been recovering from illness since New Year's but coming around weather's pretty good. bit of smoke in the air, but least it makes for colorful sunsets.
Host 1:41:13
Yeah. Right. It does that. Yeah. So you ready to talk a little bit about the this interview with the Bible theater?
Zach 1:41:20
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Host 1:41:22
Yeah. Cool. So what were your initial impressions hearing that?
1:41:25
Yeah, I mean,
Zach 1:41:28
it said the whole the bow experience is such a phenomenon even now. Right. And then then to go back to listen to sad I'll tell the story of it is was really a it was such a phenomena Well, before it got to I mean, it's already gotten somewhere by now. And to know that what had gone through just to get to this point, it's an incredible story.
Host 1:41:54
Yeah, yeah. Right. I thought so too. And, you know, I, one of the things that really struck me when I was when I was listening to it was, you know, for one thing, this is a really interesting origin story both of the Bible say it as a person as well as the monastery itself and the whole mission. But for listeners that are hearing this that don't really know where it ended up, it's, it's kind of a whole other level because this isn't just the story of some Burmese monk that made some kind of Burmese meditation Center. This is actually a real outlier of a kind of individual and organization doing something very, very different in Burmese Buddhism and meditation today. And so hearing the stages that that the say that I went through, and that the the mission and the organization went through and how tenuous it was, is all the more remarkable when you find out where it ended up, which is something that a lot of listeners might not really know from just hearing how calmly and casually he's describing the process and so on. I think to really gain some kind of appreciation for the, for the context of what it is they're doing. I think, you know, it's important to give listeners just some idea of, of how different and how unique this monastery and say to our and Burmese Buddhism today. And And to do that, you know we've both spent time we both spend a lot of time in Burmese Buddhist monasteries and we both also spend time at the VA and to just share some personal experience. So you know, the first time I went to the Baba for several times, I have just a mix of emotions. I didn't really know where to put you know, I felt I'm appreciative and grateful and amazed and also confused and even a little disgusted that at the level of activity and chaos at times that was going on around, I felt conflicted. I at times I I wondered I had a mix of appreciation and amazement and awe at what they were doing while also wondering if There was a little bit of naivete, and if it was too ambitious. And I think it's also worth describing the experience of a friend of ours who has been to Myanmar several times been to India as well as a longtime meditator. But on his first visit to the monastery, he was only there, you know, hour, hour and a half. And he said, he felt such an intense reaction to the the the activity and the dirt and the chaos and everything else that he felt he just had to get out of there. This is and this is not a person who, you know, hasn't traveled to these kind of places before. But you know, ended up saying he felt a little bit bad about himself that, you know, his self esteem that he saw, you know, how many people were living here and working here and engaged in some way and just 90 minutes was almost hard for him to be able to manage before leaving. So it's, you know, it really is an intense place and knowing that intensity and how unique it is changes the way you look at the story of how he told and I'm also wondering about you know, your own emotions. And in reaction mean there?
Zach 1:45:02
Yeah, I didn't have quite bad reaction but kind of back to the the flood of different feelings you were talking about just before our friend story. The interesting I think thing about that I had a lot of those things to the confusion, the all kinds of things. The thing is like the other features like none of those could land and form a solid opinion. I couldn't. There's there's so much uncertainty around what was coming through my mind whether it was praise or criticism or confusion or whatever he was, it's it's new in a way. So if I'm confronted with this, like, I don't know, I don't have categories for these things. So I saw the stuff bubbling up like that from all these different angles, but I think the unsettling part is it takes and I don't know if it still has yet have I landed on an overall opinion. I mean, the general opinion I have is it's a good thing, but that's not a seven case in any kind of concrete way, it just a feeling that like, Hey, this is much more good than problematic. And I don't think there's anything bad about it in a really kind of clear way. So, yeah, that phenomenon i think that's that's not the specific impression. But that's the overall kind of feeling impression I had about about going there. And I still have actually, to some degree.
Host 1:46:23
Yeah, and there's people that will be there for, you know, eight, nine months that I've met, and will write about it after, after an extended time. And even after that period, I've heard people say, you know, I spent all this time there, and I still don't really know how to describe it. So, you know, and I think that that's such a contrast to just how calm and cool and collected the data was in describing where he came from, that, you know, people who haven't actually been there and are able to contrast it with the way monasteries and meditation centers usually are, would miss that part of it without us underlying it here. And you know, if you look at the typical Burmese Buddhist monk monastery you they do come in different shapes and forms nothing as as as unique and different of what this is. But you know, there's places that are more geared towards study. They're almost like high schools or universities and, you know, teaching novices or nuns. There's places that are primarily based around meditation, there's places that have social missions that are really helping the community. And, you know, there's some that like retirement homes that are just kind of like monks hanging out, and not doing much. And there's places that are remote where people live in some kind of seclusion. So there's, there's these different kinds of functions, but there is a shared commonality of you know, if something about the Burmese Buddhist religious experience. And, and what's interesting about the BA was that it kind of comes from a place of this. I mean, there are features there and there are ways there are many ways that that the monastery behaves that you know, it's coming from a Burmese a very typical Burmese Buddhist monastic setting. And yet it departs from there in pretty extreme and extraordinary ways.
Zach 1:48:05
Right? Well, it's interesting. So the whole approach is different, but so is just the looks of the place, right? So that's a nice way you, you framed it all. It's like taking all of that, and doing it all and doing it all on steroids. And then and then trying to cram all that into about a quarter of the space, they would need to do it comfortably. So, so what stands out to me physically about the differences, for example, is the, for example, like you go to a normal monastery, and there's, it's just well defined physically, there's, there's often a gate you go through, there's compound walls that clearly delineate the space of the monastery. When I first showed up at the bar, it's like, Where's the actual monastery and you're like, you're already in it. And there was no clearly defined point that I recognized that I was in it right. There were some monastic looking buildings. You know, and so that's another feature. Most monasteries that predominantly are have mostly monastic looking buildings, these Burmese style, clearly Buddhist buildings. And because of what's going on at the Bauer center, you know, you got to hospitals, you've got tuberculosis center, you've got a place that sells art or craft or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. You know, so, there's so much going on there. It's just jam packed with, with different projects of all of everything you've mentioned, and more, right? retirement center, meditation center, study, maybe not as much. I don't I'm not sure about that. But it's like trying to cram all that in one small place, with 3000 people or however many people there and in in a space so that the population density that's the other thing like you go to most monasteries, and other than perhaps like the waterfalls, Times and the normal time. Yeah, the population density of a normal monasteries isn't so dense, you know, but here, which is 24 seven, it's just the people live there. They're not visitors, they live there, and there's visitors on top of that, and it's just, it's just a very highly densely populated place. So these are unique features just physically. And then of course, as we'll talk about the, the other
Host 1:50:28
aspects of of it, yeah, and then you have the people I mean, you describe some of the buildings but you know, you have to say it described in this talk, you have, you know, people really on the margins of society, people that are that are the unseen and you know, the invisible and that are just kind of pushed away from from, from from just normal acceptance, you know, mentally ill and prostitutes and the dying and the diseased and, and then there's the foreigners that are also at the monastery which are very different than the foreigners, you would find in other monasteries, you know, you and I have been to many Burmese Buddhist monasteries and meditation centers and we know, you know, very well, kind of the vibe of the the typical kind of Dhamma crowd. Because they really attract a backpacker element at times, you know, it feels like it's a, like they had just magically transported some building of Cabo San Road into the middle of this Burmese Buddhist monastery. And you see these worlds coming together in such a way that I have never seen it at the monastery before. So you have all these activities and people and functions and other things that are all taking place in a very concentrated area that usually are not superimposed and happening simultaneously. And they are here. So it's really a very different different experience.
Zach 1:51:44
Yeah, exactly. And like we said, even so today, it already seems like what is all this and, and the story of it, like how it became this, like so what's missing from that? It's so kind of what's the word shocking. Not quite right, but something like that. It's so there's so much going on in the mind when you encounter it now that, you know, I'd never after listening to sales talk I never I didn't really realize like how even where it might have come from just didn't get to this point. And I find that story remarkable, because you know, Sal was talking about how difficult it was in the beginning like how uncomfortable it was how the people behaved all these people together that he was taking care of. And they were fighting with each other and all this other stuff. And there's all these problems and there's supposed to be like too many people for the space that they had and and you know, all the normal conflicts that might come from that. Getting having so many people together in one place at one time. And yet, he made clear that and I think this is phenomenal. This this belief he had this faith grab If we just work together to serve others, you know these two things that we serve others, and we do this together. So, of course when they're correlating it's not happening hundred percent of the time, but this is the, the foundation of the whole thing. That thread that runs through it all that that that keeps it together and it was very unclear that that would actually manifest and work out and so it's phenomenal story starts with Well, it starts with earlier than this even in his life as we'll see but but the actual mission of the Cabal I think itself, it's not in the way he managed, it wasn't this kind of westernized, you know, entrepreneurial or going in it like CEO type, you know, that had clear goals clear vision and he kind of executes in a very, you know, to do list kind of way he just He lets everything manifest. I mean, within the boundaries of, you know, some common sense, right, having followed really basic guidelines there that everyone needs to follow as far as your behavior, but other than that, he just lets nature flow.
Host 1:54:19
Hmm. Well, that's the name of the that's what the monastery means is nature, right?
Zach 1:54:23
Absolutely. It's a ball of nature, right. So it really does manifest but it takes an incredible amount of faith not to want to step in and and rescue in a very kind of administered aerial way. Any of the issues that arise. Not that that can't happen to some degree, but, but the heart of it is this faith in, in serving others together. And yeah, that just that just blows me away.
Host 1:54:51
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, one of the things that that really amazed me during the talk was just how much the the political events taking place in Myanmar were actually affecting this monastery you know, you think about this expression, let led unto Caesar what a Caesar kind of the the separation of church and state that you know that you have a kind of religious or spiritual function happens on one side and you have you know the worldly Legislative Affairs that happen on the other and certainly there's some relationship between those but I have to say in my my time at Burmese Buddhist monasteries over the and meditation centers over the last 10 plus years, I was struck by the fact that Wow, it doesn't seem to matter that much in cases who's in charge and I don't mean to, to minimize you know, the importance of having, you know, good leadership and the society we live in, but what I mean is that, like the monks wake up at the same time, they have to eat by a certain time they have the video that you know, they've been following for, you know, however many centuries have 227 rules of monastic discipline. They, they study, they learn, they pass on the teachings and These are things that just seem to happen under whatever the society is, whatever, whatever the political system and the leadership is, and I'm sure there's, there's, there's some level of, of causality in that, but, but there's also a certain kind of, of consistency that that I'd come to kind of have in my mind when looking at at these monasteries and meditation centers. And so, you know, I think the surprise is evident in my voice when he just when he describes these exits, the series of existential threats and crisis's that they're facing. And when I asked him what brought about the stability, his answer really amazed me and that was that you know, the the country opening up and the fact that that they were that with these new freedoms that they were the people were able to properly learn about through a free press, you know, because the the state sensor of Myanmar resigned. So the press had more freedom to be able to explore stories of their interest. And I think it's really interesting to see See that as me and Mark develops and innovates how this is an example of a monastery that is trying to reach back to a 25 year 2500 year tradition, and find these new and totally unconventional ways to be modern and relevant in a changing society. And that, and it also made me just really excited to be able to have this story as one of the first ones in our podcast series, because one of the things we wanted to talk about was, was these other stories of Myanmar that you don't hear as reported as much and you know, here's an example of a Burmese Buddhist monastery that is doing something in a very new and innovative way. And, and is serving society and is taking care of people in need and is bringing Dhamma in very new and unusual ways breaking with the past. And I think this is just such a great for people who really care about what's going on in Myanmar right now and how it's changing, as well as people interested in Dhamma and meditation. I think that this is such an important story, to learn and understand and that's affecting so many people. In a way that there's really basically never happened before here,
Zach 1:58:04
right? He was just basically holding it all together, not knowing. It took a lot of courage he's holding off together with what I talked about just before this faith in serving others as a community, with all the issues that were arising in your eye, it was in a it was in a, within a greater context, an older government and society that it couldn't flourish in. And who knows when a breaking point happens, right. So he holds it together, and then we get this opening up in this freedom in a country. And the funny thing is like in in Burmese culture, yeah, a freedom doesn't guarantee ingenuity and creativity, because people are they're taught to just follow right so So the interesting thing about Sato is his his courage, right? So he holds it to But the first thing that happened is like, the point I was trying to make here is that the reporters that were coming are also just used to reporting about monasteries in a very set way. And there's not a whole lot of variety, you've covered some of the variety within the kind of the normal spectrum of Burmese monasteries. And, you know, so they just a lot of even with the freedom didn't know how to report about what they were doing. It's like, you know, trying to fit a round peg into a square hole just doesn't fit, but they still just do it the old way. And it's so it didn't really catch on it took it took a particular type of person, a reporter that used the freedom to actually go and actually see what's going on and write about it, and then write about then he was going to be going outside of the lines of the traditional way of reporting, but it was that that allowed, like better information about what they were doing, and how Incredible that was to get out. And so that that's, that's that piece within the freedom that and just this kind of chance that there was someone amongst the reporters that could do that. And of course, once one person does it and it works out, it gives the freedom for other people to, to report that way as well. So then, you know, then they could get more reporting from more sources about what they're actually doing. So read that piece, the courage, you know, the courage of sadoff and the courage of this reporter, you know, that they're similar type of people. I mean, it's such a rarity. Nima.
Host 2:00:37
Yeah. And I think that's another point to really drive home is that and it's also something I didn't quite grasp in the moment of interviewing him when he he, you know, there's some consistency, some consistent themes that he explores throughout his his life, his life, and then then his mission here. And one of those themes, as you mentioned, is this the ability to think critically outside the box and to go his own way. So whether he's going into Own Way and in wanting to and not doing the family business that his parents want, or whether it's going his own way and setting out and being an entrepreneur and extremely difficult economic environment. or, excuse me, whether he's doing his own thing in the meditation mission he's doing, actually even before that, doing his own way in the meditation that he's learning and how, how diverse and interested he is in the different practices he's doing, that this is really something that that defines him and, you know, someone that doesn't have as much background in me and Mario might think, Okay, well, this is, this is his personality. And this is this is kind of what his what his character is like, and that's all true. But I think what you're missing when you don't know about contemporary Myanmar is how unusual This is and how much this is a society that is, you know, due to its past history is kind of learning and doing as the people did before you and without a lot of thought into what it is that's coming your way, you're just kind of copying that and and carrying it on further. And I think that that's something really valuable to drive home is that is, is that this is not just an example of his character but this character happening in this environment makes it all the more just extremely unusual and unique.
Zach 2:02:20
Right? So when you go to the monastery and see what's going on, and if there's any question like, well, how did he get here? That's how it got there. It This is part of his character. It's like you said it's been there throughout his life. He's you unique in that culture, a pioneer, you know, like he goes around corners and doesn't know how things are gonna work out. Whether that's whether that's, you know, in the monastery, of course, but like, you know, back to his business, he wanted to try things in new ways. You know, he ran his shop differently than other shops run. He and people do that with Donald like you said the right they show up and most people will just show up, learn if they like They just stick with that, right. But he was actually taking good things out of that, but then also trying other teachers that people might have recommended or were popular, and really kind of gathering more and more within himself, but also, you know, with this ability to kind of put it together in his own package, and then still move with it as he moves with his project in a way that met what was arising to him, which was people in great need showing up. And he just decided to flow with that. And that takes credible. So, you know, this is where this this is the foundation of where it starts with his faith, you know, faith in the serving, you know, serving people as a community, you know, together This is, yeah, that that's it. It's kind of woven into him to be one of these entrepreneurial isn't quite the right word, but these pioneers who willing to strike out in new ways, and they may not get it perfect. So yeah, there's gonna be a lot of criticism. But you know, he's doing a lot of good in the world. So I just really appreciate that. And it's but it's not just this kind of plan thing, it's, it's this willing to take these risks and do something new. It's such a rarity, like you said,
Host 2:04:15
Yeah, and when whenever anyone does something new, it's so easy to criticize, and it's especially easy to criticize when they do something new. And it's not quite working, or it has certain kind of problems. It's, it's, um, you know, it's just the natural human tendency to want to point out why it shouldn't be done this way. Because it hasn't in the past, and why it's not working, and it can't work, because there's certain problems that are that are taking place. And so I think that, you know, he definitely opens himself up to that, but he, you know, he's, he's very courageous in his convictions, but he's also very open minded to hear what others have to say and change his mind based on new knowledge coming in, and that's the other thing that I see. You know, it's great to be able to step away to have these talks and then step away from them and reflect on it and see certain themes you don't notice at the time when they're actually happening because Just as you've mentioned this theme about his critical capacity, making him an outlier in a society where everyone is trained to do things the way everyone else has done before them and not want to stand out, you know, another theme that I saw in there was just his his unadulterated love of wisdom throughout his life, love of learning, you know, and it's very interesting because he, when I asked him if he had an interest in Dhamma, from his beginning, as many, you know, many great teachers when you talk to them, it's like, well, you know, from the early years, they just, they, they, they showed strong spiritual prowess. And, you know, with him, actually, that wasn't the case. You know, he says, openly that, you know, no, I, I saw, I wanted, I love learning, I wanted to learn anything I could, you know, I got, he got denied going to continue his education because of his Chinese ancestry that he didn't have the proper, the proper birthright to be able to, to study what he wanted, but he just kept reading by himself, but he didn't see religion as part of that real learning that he wanted to take on and then He went into business and he learned everything he could about how to make a successful business and a very difficult economic time in Myanmar, but he made it successful at a cost of extreme stress in his life. And that was what led him to being open to the Dhamma. And to seeing the power this could have to, to work on some of these these mental breakdowns, he was having it across to his business. And then once he opened himself to that Dhamma wisdom, that before he hadn't been interested in because he hadn't seen it as something that was fulfilling his his hunger for learning. Well, then he wanted to know everything, and then he, you know, he just wanted to take all the wisdom that his country had to offer, which is quite a bit of Dhamma wisdom here. And and was really applying himself to different kinds of teachers and practices and but this wasn't being done in kind of a slap shot way of just throwing everything up and see what sticks and running here and running there. You know, when you talk to him about the Mogok, and then go and go To practice he did, he was very clearly able to say, you know, this is these are the tools and benefits I derive from this type of teaching. So it's a very, very constructed compartmentalised system for wanting to gain this Dhamma wisdom and which also characterizes him as a teacher. And, you know, to just thinking about his love of his lifelong love of learning and openness, I can't help but think of another great Burmese monk which is lady say it of the 19th century you know, Lady also was characterized by by just a voracious reader who wanted to know everything and wasn't threatened by any knowledge you know, he wanted to know he wanted to know Western, the western knowledge that was coming to the time the the new new Western technology, the new studies on biology, he wasn't you want to teach everyone he wanted to teach foreigners as well as locals and and monastic and lay and males as well as females. So you know, this love of learning that animated Lady, lady say that throughout his life and really made him stand out from the monks of his day as well as the amongst the followers. I think that's that's also just a singular love of learning and openness and flexibility that you see in Kabbalah say it as well and I in no mean I know mean intend to compare Kabbalah was life and teachings and mission with ladies because they're very different monks living in a very different time and the ball was just starting his own out. But this is one characteristic that I really have not seen in many other meditation teachers or monks or even people that that I find is something that binds them just this this unadulterated love of learning in any form that it takes and really not feeling threatened by that learning and always wanting more and then incorporating that into your practice and then how you go and you know, into your teaching as you go out with it.
Zach 2:08:45
Yeah, absolutely. You know, he one thing about that, that, that wisdom that what's interesting, I think by the time you got to being interested in the Dhamma his mind had already gathered the type of wisdom That brings a type of mental maturity. That, you know, a lot of us that when we start meditation, I mean, I would argue that I certainly didn't have at the time I was more like a DOM a child, you know, or he kind of comes in more like a teenager, you know, and a healthy teenager, right? Isn't a child need to explore a little more, make some decisions on their own, and use some of the experience that they have and learn, right? And he'd already done some of that already. So by the time he gets to Dhamma, he's he's there's actually a type of mental maturity and to use that wisdom and to grow and to kind of focus on on on wisdom. This wisdom actually then manifests in in everything he does so so as he comes to his project, it didn't start off like I'm going to do this project, but as things are unfolding, I'd said before that everything you know, the borrower is the heart of it is this serving others As a community, right, and it is deeply informed by this wisdom and this wisdom isn't just knowledge, it's actually understanding how faith actually works. It's not a blind faith at all how service works. And certainly, we haven't mentioned this yet, you know, his wisdom was is how powerful awareness is. So I would say three things together even though we call the heart of it at the Bala, the serving others as a community together right. So, but that is deeply informed by wisdom. And that is the essential ingredient, in order to be able to do that effectively is to carry awareness throughout the whole process. And then so these three things together are they really the whole package and this is a manifestation, a living manifestation of of the wisdom he he continues to gather throughout his experience, because I tell you, I like to do it any other way. way. Well, let me let me rephrase that to the true mark of, of someone's practices how it actually manifests faith is actually rather more like confidence right so he has a confidence in in the serving of others with awareness and that confidence is what what gives the whole thing strength it's it's the confidence that holds the whole thing together because an unwise mind without confidence when things aren't quite working out, and if you go to the Kabbalah center it thing It seems at times there's a lot of things not quite working out oh like and the mind out of fear, wants to jump in and like, fix it in a very kind of clear and we've got to do it like this, and it just doesn't work like that there and going back to our friend who visited there, and myself and the way you felt as well, that unsettling that we feel sometimes it's that this place is not a manifestation of fear based control. It's actually a man should have a freedom, freedom, a skillful freedom right so skillful is important and it's a wise freedom and, and I think so no matter what we want to say about the whole thing, the criticisms that people have. I think it's hard to say that it's wrong. It's it's he's pioneered something new. He's turned a corner that hasn't been turned before. You know, people criticize sometimes monsters for not doing enough for others, and maybe he didn't get it. 100% right. But I think he's, I think the whole place is doing something incredibly awesome and in a way that maybe uncomfortable if we spend any amount of time there. And we can manifest any of that faith in just doing good things and with with skill with awareness, then we've gained something and the borrower can give that to us. I think that's beautiful.
Host 2:13:00
Yeah, and I think that, you know, you really get into this thing of, into discussing, you know, what, what actually his teachings are, you know what, what his what kind of meditation he teaches what is how he characterizes Dhamma practice. And this is obviously something that we didn't explore in this interview because we were really just taking a long patient time to learn about who he was, where he came from, and how he got to where he's going, which I think was really valuable because, you know, we see certain themes develop and see certain decisions he made that, that understanding that we're able to look ahead at what is actually happening now with the mission, that, that we're able to refer back to and gain a deeper understanding. But I think that it does have to be said that there there is a methodology behind the Dhamma practice and the, the way that he holds the instructions the way that he that he holds it all together and brings it together with his teachings on awareness and knowledge. Attachment really being detached and mindfulness that we haven't had a chance to explore yet during this interview, but during the next one, that's the you know, the next topic we'll get into and really try to understand how those teachings bring everything together. So we have that to look forward to.
Zach 2:14:16
Absolutely. I look forward to it. Oh,
Host 2:14:18
yeah. Great. Well, then thanks for your time and check back in with you next time we talked to the Baba and hope they don't do too much more burning out there.
Zach 2:14:28
I don't think that's gonna stop. But I'll take the the wishes. Maybe the wish will blow some of the smoke. Well, I don't want to blow Does anyone else either, but yeah, anyways, we'll see how that goes. Yeah,
Host 2:14:39
great. Okay, well catch you later.