Transcript: Episode #141: Talkin' Bout a Revolution
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Jon. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
00:28
I'm Dr. Boyce shaman Romania she, she lives with her family genogram was in my shell when Danny CDA looked into my soul without Chaga yet man shall say now God do we want to wait Joanie down below now
Host 01:04
I'd like to welcome everyone tuning into this episode. Many of you now listening likely have a measure of personal freedom and liberty in your own lives, freedoms that the speaker you're about to hear from no longer enjoys. I don't say this to make anyone feel guilty, but to offer a reminder that we're very fortunate to have a degree of agency and safety in our lives that our upcoming guests and everyone else in Myanmar these days can only dream of. So after you hear their story, please consider how you can use your freedom to support or advocate on behalf of the Burmese people. Any action no matter how small counts now let's hear what they have to say.
01:42
David is written by the victors in the blood of their victims when resistance is met with hostility, retaliation becomes futile.
02:14
The major gender roles from my childhood zone amino Lilia Chabot cough from my phone amino Novia shuffled off he did a really that really, really good day?
Host 03:26
Well, it's been about a year since we last heard from John which we talked to him just months after the coup developed. So we're checking in with him, again to hear about what has been a very eventful and four year and see how his life and perspectives and role has changed. So John, thanks so much for taking the time to join us once again here at insight Myanmar podcast.
03:50
Glad to be back.
Host 03:52
Right. So before our interview, I had asked you to just take a moment to listen to our interview last year that we recorded just to remind yourself about what we talked about what you were saying and feeling and doing at the time. So let's jump right into this one by referencing the one from last year. i You mentioned you listen to that just yesterday. What were your thoughts and reactions? When when you heard that interview again from last year?
Jon 04:20
Well, my first reaction was there was a lot of a lot of things that I was naive about and and under estimating how the situation is and all that. But yeah, and so now I'm a bit more elaborate. Now on a bit more focused on what to do and what I've been doing in terms of the revolution and in terms of still fighting against the hunter.
Host 04:55
Right, which things stood out to you as being naive from last interview.
Jon 05:01
Well, um, last interview, as interviewed, and one of the main things that I was, you know, I was still walking towards was this peaceful, you know, peaceful resolution of this call cube and the situations of Myanmar. And so now, right now, it's more like, you've probably heard that everyone's probably heard the news of how arm conflicts and all the arms. conflicts have rised in the past year, and how from, you know, from defending from protest lines, those people who are defending from protest land have now come into taking the actual arms and defending, like Kent State writes in a more a bit more grim way, I guess.
Host 06:02
Yeah, certainly, in those first few months, which is, when we talk to you at that time, there was a real hope among the activists and the protesters and those supporting democracy, that they would be able to hold out and resist non violently and a real commitment to that ideal. However, as we know that the military struck back, and they struck back very hard and very brutally and violently. And shortly after our interview at that time, on the ground in Myanmar, many of the groups were forced to decide many of the individuals, what were they going to do, were they going to leave the country in exile and try to work away from Myanmar, were they going to leave the movement and just kind of go back to a more passive role, or were they going to enter into something of armed resistance in arm training, given the changing situation, and I think this transition is quite possibly the most important development in since the coup happened, and likely also the most misunderstood, especially outside of Myanmar, where it can fall back very easily, unfortunately, into this kind of non nuanced understanding of, well, it's just both sides are being violent, and there's people caught in the middle. And it's really unfortunate. And so I think understanding this transition is really, really important, especially for those outside who weren't faced with what was happening inside the country. So as someone who lived through this, I mean, you were for those who haven't listened to your first interview, and we really recommend that everyone should you were a non violent protests are in the early stages of the resistance of the coup, you were arrested, even though you were nonviolent, and put into insane jail and a month for a month and spend some time describing that experience last year. And then you came out of that experience outside of prison and wanting to continue working as a documentarian, which is your profession and finding ways to support the movement. So that's where we left off with you last year, shortly after that interview was when the nonviolent protests were no longer possible based on the terribly vicious and violent crackdown of the military. So looking at this transition period, in a bit more detail as someone who lived through it and not just lived through it, but were actively participating in every stage of it and being punished for that participation before it turned into an armed resistance. What can you describe about the nature of that transition, that those of us who weren't living through it and impacted of it wouldn't be able to understand by not being there that that that we might be missing from what it felt like and what was actually happening on the ground as someone is yourself who was just so intensively involved in every stage of it.
Jon 08:56
Um, the first thing, the first advice that I could give us, and this military is a really intelligent, intelligent in a way of like, they really strategic about how they, how they, how they handle crackdowns, and how they handle, you know, governance in in a way of their own structure. So, and the way they've done it before previously, even with the Rohingya crisis, and all that was to keep feeding false informations, to, to the media all the time. So I think for those who are outside of their mind, who's still trying to keep track of what's happening in Myanmar, the main important thing is to realize what is the military propaganda and what is actually happening on the ground, right. So try to as much get to the source before they actually How do I describe it? Before they actually? Before they actually comment on anything rationally rather than, you know, trying to get the correct information?
Host 10:16
Right. And so you're describing some of the tactics the military has done and how they've, they've definitely contributed to confusing the message outside of the country as to what is really happening. From your perspective and your point of view and that of your colleagues and peers. What was that transition like where you had to decide when it was no longer possible to continue the kind of civil nonviolent resistance as has been going on and one was forced to make a decision of what to do next, how to respond, how deeper to go into the resistance with the risks inherent in that? What was it like for you personally, to have to make that decision as to what you're going to do and how far you're going to go?
Jon 11:03
Well, since the even with this, and even with the landline and protests, right? Since day one, military since 1988, they have used actual live bullets and like killed, killed hundreds and hundreds of students. But it was scratched in history. So for me, even when I was protesting, in the earlier interview, as well, like, I was already ready to get shot or killed on the street. So, yeah, so from since the since the non violence protests, they have already prepared myself for the worst days, you know, one day I'm gonna get shot and die. So that was one some, that was my first case, preparation for this transition since the coup happened. Yeah. But then now, now, seeing the seeing the progress of how people have reacted and how they've been reacting to certain things. Yeah, so people have is a way of trying to find out self how to defend ourselves. So at first, we were only seeking for help paying for help, and like, you know, trying to protest in a way that we only know how, because we never taught how to fight better, financially, you know, to, to you can't respond to things with violence. So, yeah, so we were asking nicely, for a period time, and all that we got was the retaliation and the violence upon us. So, yeah, so at one point 10. We, with I mean, people have started to, you know, just retaliate when they have done back at them. And only then they have started taking this more seriously, rather than, you know, just protest, they're crying for help, and then we will just disappear in months or something.
Host 13:17
Right, for those people that are outside the country, and are watching this arm resistance develop, perhaps with some concern, just that the that this could bring about greater overall violence and the concern about that development. And perhaps not understanding the wider situation and what you're going through directly, what would you want to tell them to give a deeper, more realistic understanding of what the situation is that would complement or affect or speak to their competing concern they have with just generally a widening violence that an armed resistance can create.
Jon 14:01
And I think most of the people outside of Myanmar and who have not been in the violence situations are mainly concerned about the civilians and how they were being affected. Right. But like, for Myanmar, civilians, the really beautiful things is, in those refugees who had to flee, they were they had to, like flee for their livelihood and all that. Yes. But in deep down, they are still supporting the armed resistance side and not the military side. So yeah, that is one thing that has still kept us motivated, motivated enough to you know, keep this movement going and keep doing what we're, we've been doing for the for the past couple years now.
Host 14:53
Right. So going back to your listening of this interview last year, one of the things that struck He was this naivete, that you you were naive as to what it would take to overthrow a violent, repressive military and you've been going in a different direction since then. Is there anything else that stands out from hearing that interview that that struck you from? how much things have changed? Or you've changed personally from the last year?
Jon 15:22
From last year, like, yeah, I was a bit naive, in a sense, because I thought, you know, these people are as educated as us all is understanding and have empathy towards other human beings, as a normal person would. So I think that's where my naiveness was, but after studying them, throughout their actions, day by day in everyday incidents, these are not the type of people that we can have dialogues with.
Host 15:55
Your your talking about? Yes, this
Jon 15:57
is the military. Yeah, this is the military is that they're not? Yeah, they're not the type of person who can sit down in one room and talk because they will just, you know, be ignorant and just doesn't care about other people like how normal people will react. Normal people will care. So yeah. So I mean, for me, as well, I've been more I've been more confident and much more careful in what I do. Like, I'm, I'm still doing all these not protest movement, per se. But I've been trying to, you know, come in my knowledge and what I know and try to help out those who are still fighting in the frontline in any ways I can Yeah.
Host 16:48
You're saying that one of the ways that you felt you were naive is in not properly understanding the enemy and thinking perhaps hoping for more humanistic ways of relating at some basic level. So that begs the question, what do you think they want? What what is their goal? I think there's a lot of things said and attributed to them. And there's, there's definitely a way to look at this organization. It's just pure evil kind of Mafia terror. But trying to look at it a bit more analytically, and a bit more objectively. And the answer might be different for the soldiers on the ground and the commanders and then some of the top generals. But if you were to take a step back, and really just try to understand who are these people we're up against? What is their endgame? What do you think it is that they actually want out of this?
Jon 17:35
I think what they really want is, is power total control. Like they think going down to Myanmar history, right, like we've been ruled by kings. So I think it all came down, they think they they above everyone else, and they think their role two titles. Shit. So am I allowed to say on this,
Host 17:59
you're allowed to swear, especially when it's about the time that Oh, yes.
Jon 18:03
Okay. So yeah, the, I think that's what has made them a bit more, you know, stupid and close off from the rest of the normal human being because one they think what they want is their endgame is they want total power, total control, right, so everyone else who oppose them, they're only now seeking to eliminate us, or, like, shield us. Even before even before even when I grew up, like, I didn't know much about it, but there were certain videos of of ADEA movement that wasn't allowed to be publicly viewed or like we're not allowed to discuss it in public. And before I don't understand why that was a big issue, but now I realized that they really find a delete history and then try to create their own empire type of things.
Host 19:01
Right, and so yeah, so you you meant you reference how you think they want total control and that's on a personal level, definitely, you can look at despotic and dictatorial rulers and different time in places in history and the total control that they want. So that's kind of given I'm also curious what with that control, what do you think it is they want to create? What do they want to build it? Certainly they want the personal control of riches and influence and, and those types of things but beyond that, which one can say is kind of universal for despotic leaders. They they also probably have a vision of what they want Myanmar to look like and what kind of country and society that they they want to manipulate and control in existing there. So what's your what's your idea of what you think their vision would be for the type of Myanmar they want to control and build?
Jon 19:58
I mean, looking at now On this yellow doesn't want to build shit. Yeah, like, because looking at now how he's going about things is he's literally pretty much destroying the whole country. Right? And like, yes, he's like, trying to build an army and constantly trying to build on me, which is like power in terms of, you know, which he thinks he will have powers when you have all these, like, you know, guns and bombs and planes. But yeah, apart from that he is like, looking at how it is like, I think he's only looking out for him and his family. And for him to not just to get killed, because Milo is already like, rich in terms of wealth and the things since the previous government, right, he already have the work. And he already has certain certain amount of influence and power and with the public with the, with the whole country. So it's not, it's not like, how he wants to build a better version of Myanmar. I think he just wants to Myanmar to themselves, and then everyone else can, you know, can be his slave or some shit.
Host 21:20
Right? Yeah, I think certainly, there's an argument to be made that so much of what the military is doing is is our signs of desperation, and, and really been over their head, which we'll get into later, but to look at now, looking at this military, and how overstretched they are, in the beginning stages of the coup and the revolution, there was a lot of hope towards the faction, police and military that would drop their weapons, change sides, or just kind of slink away not follow orders. And there's certainly been a lot of work in those kinds of operations. And there's been some level of success. But it has to be said that a year and a half on there are a lot of fighting units, ground units that are continuing on. And I guess I'm somewhat surprised, I wonder what their motivation could be. I know that fear is a large part of it. And they're also kind of hostages in a way. But it has to be said, It's been a long time where these ground soldiers are still staying in their units. And we haven't seen defections in hugely large numbers. And you wonder about the morale and the motivation, and the fact that they're not really winning a lot of the side from airstrikes. They're not they don't really seem to be winning a lot of the operations they're doing they're taking heavy losses. What What are your thoughts on this? Are you surprised there haven't been bigger defections? And what are your thoughts on why so many are still remaining, even after all this time, and what's not necessarily a Winning Campaign?
Jon 22:55
Um, my, my thinking is, like, they, they've been brainwashed to the level of, you know, they've been brainwashed to the level of like, whatever their leader is saying must be the truth. And what everyone else is saying is a lie. So his, this institution, this may lose tomorrow has been, like, build off that. That type of system that a lot of people one day time, turn a blind eye and just believe in someone, then they can still do crazy shit and like, they don't feel guilty about it. Right. So I think that's one of the big challenge that we're having is trying to educate the soldier that these things are wrong. But the other part of it is also that, yeah, we've asked, you know, we've, we've asked soldiers to, you know, to the movement and CVM and less the army, and all that stuff. But right now, I think is the Yeah, the yeah, there hasn't been a huge affection from the army. But um, they had certainly have lost morale in on the ground, because they've been really desperately trying to you know, try to like, get the morale of the soldiers. Yeah, they've they live in a very, like inhumane very poor condition like I thought in St. Prison was worse but to be in the army and to be in to be fighting for those Milo terminal is actually far worse than conditions of any prison I'm sure. So it's the living style and the way that they've put us put put those soldiers through so they pretty much put them through as slaves, right, like so. They say the leaders and then all these soldiers just have to have no choice but to listen to these people and do what they've been told. Otherwise. There's no life outside of the outside of the military. and there's no life for them outside in the human war.
Host 25:05
Right? Yeah, that's, that's really tough. I want to track your own involvement since we last spoke to you as far as you're comfortable and sharing. So just just share, whatever, whatever you can or if something needs to be said a little more general, or something left out, I leave that to you. But when, when we left off on our last interview, you had just recently been released from prison, you were reintegrating into society and your family and looking to how you were going to support the resistance movement. As we talked about at the beginning of this talk. Everything changed when the military's response became much more violent and the armed resistance formed. So for you personally, what can you share about the direction you went in, and the activities and roles and responsibilities you took on in, in the year since we last had you on?
Jon 25:56
Well, I'm sure since I've, since I've was since I spoke to you last year. Ashton? So a lot of a lot of a lot of the generation, you know, generation, generation, generation Z, and the millennials have actively been on protesting, right. So most of us, a lot of people have turned to an underground guerrilla movement type of fighters. And, and, and those who could not be stayed in the in the city sites anymore, have, you know, move out to the ethnic camps and started training and all that. Yeah, so I have been, and when I can say that I am part of the UG movement. And I think from for my safety, and for everyone's safety, I think that's pretty much what I can show you at the moment, because I'm still in the country. And I'm still, yeah, I'm still in the city still trying to you know, keep up the fight.
Host 27:15
Sure, sure. Um, so then, rather than talk specifically about what you've been doing, let's talk more about for now, at least the feeling behind it, just the psychological and emotional shift of what it took to do something so different than your previous life and values. In the previous interview, for example, you referenced Buddhist meditation and the monkhood how meaningful that had been in your life, this kind of path of peace, you were a documentarian. So in the creative arts and journalism, one can say, and you've shifted into looking at resistance, that's not just non violent, but also trying to do whatever it takes to uproot the military. So just within your mind, you know, psychologically, emotionally, what was that shift? Like, in deciding to start to take on those roles?
Jon 28:11
Well, yeah, because, um, because since the protests, what we've been saying is like, we will fight till the end, right? Fight to the NSA night and have them all and have us or, yeah, so. So I haven't shift in the way of like, non thought, from non violence to violence. I've still, I'm still doing both in the sense, because I'm still sending out you know, nonviolent messages and like, still, using and helping some of the artists and the platforms and using art as art as the expression to deliver the message. But on the other hand, I'm also participating in all these underground movements. And because that's what gets the message to their side, because they cannot be set with just the expressions, they have to be like, said with actions. So yeah, they're not the type of person who can who will listen to other people. So they're the only type of person who will, you know, I realized that the only the type of person who will care who will take actions only when they get hurt. So that password has shifted me into trying to do that, but I'm still a practicing police. I'm still a practice and I still, you know, I still, you know, meditate sometimes, and I still went to monkhood and all that stuff. So I still do all my Buddhist practice. But, you know, when we're at war, like, we still do our spiritual stuff, but then We still fight to kill, kill the enemies and stuff.
Host 30:05
And what is that intersection like for you for pursuing a Buddhist path of introspection, inner peace, on one hand, while also engaging in an armed conflict, where the plan objective is very much to take lives and kill the enemy, because that's, as you said, the only message that is getting through to them. So is there ever a conflict between these two different parts of your personal personality now? Or does the what do you find the spiritual side sometimes can inform or support? In some ways, the other work you're doing? Or how do you? How do you balance these two very different parts of your life right now?
Jon 30:47
For me, and where I stand in the movement, like I can say this much is I still haven't actually, you know, pull the trigger on anyone. So that's still part of my belief, because I still haven't actually, you know, been the one to actually do the violence stuff, but I believe in the psychological effects and the psychological impacts that the movement can bring up onto them. So what I've been involved in is a warfare type where it's affect them more in a psychological way. So I've been Yeah, so the movement I've been participate participating is not directly, you know, pulling the trigger, per se, but in a more of the psychological advancement that we will have for for our side and the reverse effect their side.
Host 31:48
Right, right. Have you had any moments of inner conflict or inner questioning, have a feeling that these were these two sides of yourself or the divergence, or were you able to keep them kind of compartmentalized and segmented in different areas?
Jon 32:03
Well, because I'm in the protest day. And when I was arrested, I made a lot of friends insane. And a lot of good friends who we were, we like we become really good, close friends. Because even in the insane prison, we were trying to, we're trying to do the hunger strike in print inside. So there was a couple of mates that I've become really close with, in this, during this huge movement and all that. I've lost a couple of friends. So this has become personal for me. And, and then and then personally meeting other fighters and personally, getting to know other crypto fighter who is still fighting have kept me motivated. And to find that balance of you know, what's, what should be done? And what's the right thing to do. So, yeah, I've managed to keep that. Keep other people's hobbies. Yeah. Other people's involvement together as a group, and yeah, that's what has kept me balanced.
Host 33:21
Gray, right. And looking at your identity, who what your identity is in the world, how you present yourself, you know, how you feel about yourself, I you've just gone through such an extraordinary transition that so few of us listening probably have done and how impactful this year is bad and the impression is made on you. So do you feel like your your identity who what you bring to the world who you are, how you're seeing in public or how you allow yourself to be seen? Do you feel like your your identity has also shifted or your understanding of your identity has shifted in this past year.
Jon 33:59
For the identity as presented, the wall hasn't fought night hasn't shifted? And that that's what have been worrying my family a bit, right? Because and like since day one, since day one, because my dad grew up, you know? And, like, did business with the military in order so he has, he has always been like, since day one of the pool, he has always been, like giving me the option of all you could still work with them and make good future, right. So yeah, so I can say my identity hasn't shifted in that sense. Because since day one, I'm not like, I cannot work with those type of people. Like yeah, I cannot be, you know, doing all the wicked thing that they were doing to other people just to get there. Just to get fame or money or power or whatever. So yeah, and naturally not that type of person. So that's how I have been. Yes. That's how I still being true to myself in terms of what I'm been doing. And that's how I've prepared for the worst that you know if I go down. Yeah, if I go down doing this, there's no required for me of what I've done. Hmm.
Host 35:23
Looking at your Buddhist practice, meditation and monkhood has been important to you spiritually. And as you mentioned, you've pursued that as well. So you're a Buddhist, and I've spoken to other Bomar Buddhists, young Bomar Buddhists who have been in the resistance movement and their relationship towards Buddhism, or one can say Burmese Buddhism has changed over the course of the last year, not so much. The ones I've spoken to haven't so much lost any faith in the historical teachings of the Buddha that came from India, but more a reflection on the way that state institutions in Myanmar have been actively manipulating the faith and concerns about the faith and the risk that it might be under and that their eyes have been opened with that and so I'm wondering for you if your identity as a as of Ammar Buddhist and your practice of meditation and your your endeavor to want to follow the Buddhist teachings in that society. If that has gone through any changes in in looking in perhaps understanding more of the course of the past year? How the military and the authorities as you were growing up or manipulating the fate so to speak?
Jon 36:46
Well, um, yeah, it came down to the kingdom to the act of some of the famous monks in our time, right, like, so, when we were growing up, there was some monks that we look up to, and like some monks teaching that we've been following, and like we've been listening to, and in this time of crisis, like, some of those really famous monks have shifted, in a sense because of because there's, I don't know, what their intention or what their mindset behind the actions, but a lot of those months, have, switch side, not switch side, but like, have, I actually abandon what they've been teaching to us, and really acting differently to what they've been teaching and then what they've been, you know, doing in terms of how to behave in terms of, you know, saying like, you know, how to, for example, like not to, you know, defend a murderer or something, but then now they actually letting the murderer, like, praise them, and then like, donate to them and all that stuff. So in terms of that, modern, not modern, but like current, Myanmar, Buddhism, structure, the structure itself, and some of the Monkseaton have changed. Yeah, for so for me, for me. For me, I was lucky that what the monk died, I have an the monk that has taught me, we're we're not involved in with, with these type of people. So I was lucky enough that I could still, you know, I can still confidently, you know, practice and like, pray to the same monks or like, you know, do the same practice and doing Yeah.
Host 38:52
So because these monks have continued to walk in ethical line and not the apologist for the tatmadaw that hasn't really created a conflict within yourself of the Buddhism that you follow. Is that correct?
Jon 39:07
Yes, the Buddhism that. I mean, like Buddhism, as followed was a wasn't the monks luck. So yeah, so like, my parents will always be like, I mean, my mom, like will be telling how great these monks have been having a huge schools are like how keeping you know, building all these incredible buildings and all that stuff, and like how much donation he's been getting from all these people. And I'm like, why amongst getting all the donations and then village and, you know, village and monasteries are getting burned in Sakai. So yeah, that's the controversy that's been happening here.
Host 39:55
Right, and looking at that controversy that you just referenced and looking at the facts There are many people right now that are that are, that do have some kind of conflict in the sense that the certain Buddhist monks and teachings that they were really following and supporting, they now feel that those monks are not reciprocating and not wanting to stand up for them or support them or be on their side, and sometimes quite the opposite. I'm wondering about like a wider view. So we've just been talking about you specifically, specifically and personally up to this point. But I'm looking at the wider view and looking at the, the strength of the strength and the characteristic of Buddhism in Myanmar, and just that the nature of Buddhist society that it is, and that it has been this current revolution, however, it's going to end whatever, whatever it turns into being in the society that's built after this, it feels to me that the lay Sangha relationship and the Buddhist nature of the kind of the people and the younger generation, how they hold it, that some kind of transformation is going on, based on this moment in this past year and a half. How exactly that plays out? I don't really know I'm watching with interest, but it does seem that there's something that's shifting and that is going to transform into some other type of relationship. What that is, I'm not sure. I'm wondering your thoughts on that. Do you see like a wider shifting within society taking place people questioning things that maybe they didn't before? And given the type of conversations that are playing out and that you're hearing, do you have any sense of what where we might be going what, what this relationship and the between lay in Sangha on the faith in general and Buddhist presence and nature of Buddhism, Myanmar, if it is changing what it might be changing to?
Jon 41:52
A thing like it's a has to change, because the way we've been taught and the way we've perceive things, and the way we've actually experienced things are totally, you know, different in on on the ground. So, like, the change is definitely happening. But I think it's up to us to keep keep the history as assets so that the changes will be more dominant and prominent. Yeah, I think the changes comes down to that, of how Myanmar people and especially Myanmar Buddhists, and the Myanmar Buddhism's are really like, spiritual in a sense of a little bit superstitious. So and I do, they want to turn to other people. Like, you know, in times of crisis, people were, you know, most people, most religious people will play to their gods, instead of actually going and, you know, fixing the problems, and that's the things that's been most common with Myanmar people is like, the first thing we do when we're in trouble is not sought out how to get out of the trouble, but to play first. So I think that that dynamic has changed a lot. So a lot of the people who are fighting now, and I have been fighting in the frontlines, they will still pray on a regular basis, but they know more to take actions, rather than to pray first. And you know, to Yeah, to like, to resolve to the higher beings have caught on whatever Yeah.
Host 43:43
Right, that's interesting. And it makes me wonder, as people are, are giving less of their mental focus to the religion and perhaps to the faith of their religion, and more in their own independent and their own independent agency and what they're able to do, do you do you see that in the long run, perhaps resulting in a loss of faith of Buddhism? Or perhaps that that might be a dramatic way to say it, maybe just Buddhism becomes less important and less than Tegretol than it's been in the past? It's, it's not quite as great a priority as it's been before this traditional sense. Do you see some of that shifting or how do you see that relationship going?
Jon 44:25
I think that really depends on how, like, how Myanmar like majority of them are people and how well and how educated they've become in in the future regardless of the outcomes. Because the, if the outcome is like if Milo wins and like tomorrow rules for another 1020 years or 30 years, the result will still be the same because they will pretty much the people and they will push the people into praying for higher beings that will save them. And so they will still keep this, this level of civil civilization, uneducated, so then they will not grow into trying to find their own radical thinking. Where I think if we win, and if we get to keep this history and keep this history alive and what happened, and how people respond and how people as Yeah, how the history happened, and if we keep talking about what have happened, I think the younger generation will have ability to decide on their own and like, have a wider and better understanding of how actually Buddhism works.
Host 45:47
You reference the people that were on the front lines, and how they are now relying perhaps on the more on their independent agency more than they are on the on just praying or having faith or something, that they're actually doing things on their own and becoming more more competent and confident in their skills. Looking, that brings us into looking at this wider understanding of how the battles are going, I think for those of us outside Myanmar, it can be really difficult to have a greater overall picture and context as to what is actually happening operation by operation, the different battles and skirmishes and, and and how, what the state is overall of the resistance, and particularly of the armed resistance and how they're faring and how they're doing we do hear things like the real lack of resources, lack of, of material that's going to support them and how there's there, there are people in these armed forces, these armed resistance forces that are very motivated, but they just don't have a lot of material to be able to carry that on. But as someone like yourself, who is directly involved, and has an understanding is watching some of these things take shape, how would you describe where we're at now, in terms of the armed resistance, I guess a kind of reductionist way to say that is, are we winning? Or is are the people winning? Are they? Are they coming out ahead? I'm sure the picture is a lot more complicated than that question indicates, but how would you give a general answer for someone that just hasn't been keeping up or paying attention, or doesn't really have a strong understanding of how the nature of these conflicts are going? I'm
Jon 47:33
like, to put it in really simple sentences, like, we were not winning yet, but they're losing for sure. Because, um, because they, because, you know, Mahler himself, like, doesn't have a clue what he's doing. And he doesn't know how to cover and share. So just they're not definitely winning, and for the frontline, and all the, on the, to all these difficulties that we're facing, and through, through all these challenges, and all that we are enduring, and we're trying to overcome. So each individual person, everyone who has been involving, has been evolving to the stage of how to do and how to prepare themselves mentally, and how to like, you know, keep firing the coal and like to restore coal in a more effective way. So I think that yeah, so we are, we are winning in that sense, because to look at it, like our soldiers are motivated and our our people are still our people are still determined and looking forward to that day that where we can rebuild Myanmar in a much more liberal and much more open environment. Rather than laying Yeah, rather than these, my yellow school and following the being their laptops and following the whatever there is to be commenced, that they try to shift out. Yeah.
Host 49:13
I really liked that response. You're not winning yet, but they're definitely losing that definitely gives a general simplified picture of trying to understand it. If they are definitely losing and you're not winning yet, what will it take to push you over the edge? What What will it take to to to take that momentum and that possibility that potentiality and take away the yet factor so that you actually are in a position where the momentum is falling on winning?
Jon 49:46
So for us to win, right so this, this military is trying everything in their power and every wicked way in the world could book to, to diminish and to To predict the reputation of the movement of our people. So I think like, it's really, um, I don't want to get political, but it's really important that people who've, who are outside of your mind have, and people who are inside of BMI. So I think it's really important for us to keep just keep giving out true information and like keeping true to the facts of what's happening on the ground and what's being what we need, and what's been given to us. Is the is the transparency from the government to the people is clear, then that thing for us, that will be a quicker way for us to reach to the victory. Yeah, because some of the informations that, you know, even from from this, from the NEA the government side, some of the, some of the some of the information that they've been giving us, some of them are like, yeah, because there's, there's still, some of them are fake, and some of them are not effective in a way. So yeah, I think like they have to just keep, keep listening to the people. And then if we, if they try to meet, meet, if they try to meet their words for the actions, then I think that will push us quicker to the victories.
Host 51:29
Can you give us some examples of what you mean about incorrect information that's giving a misunderstanding?
Jon 51:36
Well, I mean, like, because, like, in the early days, right, in the early days, when an EEG supplement was fun, and that one of the minister, just bluntly, put out statement that, and you do have an Air Force now without actually having the resource in the background online without actually having the details of, you know, any resource or materials behind to take them to the action. And it's been a year now. And that delivery hasn't actually been on Crown yet. So yeah, that is one of the one of the example I can give.
Host 52:20
So that seems to me to fall in the category of false optimism, which has definitely been something that that other activists have complained about. And express concern is the damage that false optimism has been doing.
Jon 52:34
Yes, definitely. Because, um, yeah, we've like, we know, we need this, we need this and we need this. But like, if when they say they have it, and they have to deliver, right, so that's the kind of falling into the same pattern of this government that we're trying to fight, which is what we don't want. So. So yeah, for me, so from the activist side, trust me, I'm still talking bad about energy as much as I'm talking about about the military.
Host 53:04
How would you characterize the relationship between the leadership at NG G and those on the ground carrying out operations?
Jon 53:13
Um, there's definitely progress and they're definitely listening. I think the main Yeah, the main challenges they're having is the lack of human resource under the under the ministries and all that stuff. Like to actually because I right now, everyone's focusing on fighting, fighting, fighting, right, and then no one's focusing on not no one but like, less people are focusing on like, less people putting energy into administration or like, all these other things, that we've had difficulty in the earlier years of like having the camps and then the camps will have to have to have a huge problem and issues of trying to manage and, you know, doing the proper funding, fundraising things and all these other all the other stuff that comes with it. But right now we're in the stage of quite stable, stable situations on ground is just from the government side of it like exactly giving up those false optimism, then that's not going to get get us anywhere further, and people are only going to lose faith on them.
Host 54:27
You say that things are stable now on the ground? Can you clarify what you mean by that unstable in my way?
Jon 54:34
I mean, stable in the sense like, the fall before the main thing was like, you know, have actually seen some tabs, which are like there's like, hundreds of people in the camp hold them and there's only five or six comes to protect themselves. 1010 guns But and it's all Yeah, so those those type of things and we've gone through a lot of like, yes, some of the cancer comes not some of the time I think I can say like most of the time has gone to all these. Some people run away with their fundings and like, some people just use their fundings for their personal personal beings and all that stuff and like, and a lot of the fundings were also went into just feeding the soldiers. Not actually be able to buy guns and all that stuff. So I think yeah, yeah. So those situations asked, in this pass, for me this past six months, I think they've progress, and like, those type of those type of those types of problems have been resolved. So yeah, I think we're on a climb of progress.
Host 55:57
We do hear a lot in the news about the lack of materials and resources like weapons that the armed resistance has, and the difficulty of getting those. Is that still a concern? That what you see are the people the fighters that you're in touch with, in your supporting to they have adequate material to be able to carry out what they're doing? Or are they still lacking in extreme ways?
Jon 56:24
I mean, like, we were calling this one of the biggest nutrition institution in the Southeast Asia. So compared to them, we're actually we're actually still lacking in terms of higher firepower. But I'm, like, on ground like, on ground in terms of the infantry troops, we've, um, I think we're good, in a sense, like, you know, these, so that, for example, in certain regions, or some of the regions in Dubai, they cannot claim back any lands. So they just keep burning villages, and they just keep burning, burning down towns and villages. So, yeah, so and they just keep doing the airstrikes and bombing, the bombing the areas. So yeah, the only, I think, like the next weapon we need is to shoot down some planes, I guess, in terms of in terms of ground and in terms of the Yeah, in terms of the ground, I think we're pretty good.
Host 57:35
So that's the countryside you're talking about, and you're talking about the some of the areas of the countryside that the resistance has claimed, and that the military is not able to get back. And so because of that they are going on these rampages across the sky and division, especially where they're just they're burning, they're killing, they're looting. They're they're doing all these these terrible things and airstrikes as well which many see as a sign of desperation that they're they're not able to win battles against the resistance that are put up by the PDFs. So instead they take their vengeance on defenseless people, or go from the air just just almost out of this anger and desperation that's the countryside How about the city? There have been changes in the city would you say city life is kind of normal kind of stable in the sense that if if someone were to just drop in Mandalay or Yangon would they would they even see things looking differently or are things kind of somewhat back to normal in terms of businesses and and restaurants and whatnot so what what some what's been the contrast and other cities have been progressing
Jon 58:43
the city has been progressing things like in a more in a more yes in the more of like, jungle especially like people a lot of people are like have to go back to work right like six months into crew or like 10 months into cool people we're still pushing and like pushing out all the all our resources. Now a lot of people have been forced to cut back and run their business to find a living because a countryside with the countryside is easier to support and easier to support and stay without you know, with the with the low cost and I with a sufficient amount of Russian and I do it and all that stuff. But in city a lot of the people and a lot of UD people especially ut in the like underground fighters in the city are facing is the the living expense. So a lot of people are forced to get back to work and a lot of people are forced to reopen their business and all that stuff. So I'm Yangon. handily, and probably Navy oil is a little bit back to normal. But in Yangon, they're still you know, they're still bombs and stuff happening one once or twice a day. So yeah, there's and the protests I saw like, because a lot of the UCs and some of the UCs, we, there's a lot of duty, still just doing protest movement, and they're still being, like, actively doing the protest movements.
Host 1:00:36
Right, and that segues into the next question I wanted to ask, which is about the general feeling or sense of the democracy activist, I mean, a year and a half is a long time when, especially when it was so sudden. And the conditions have been so difficult to the collapsed economy, lack of opportunities, the internet outages and electricity and problems with water and so much else that that is has really been difficult to say nothing of the extreme violence of the military and what we've seen with them and, and so I'm wondering what you feel is the general sense or state of the morale of the people, of course, there's this false optimism as well, that kind of gets you excited and hopeful maybe this week, or around the next corner, you're gonna see some major development and victory is going to be ours. And, and then there's this letdown, it's like a sugar rush that just gives you this, this sudden excitement and then just kind of drops you down a bit depressed. And I can't even imagine the pain and the loss that people have to go through from losing friends and family or being injured or imprisoned or the trauma that comes from from so many things. I mean, I've heard reports from some of the ethnic areas in Saigon division that children can't even hear loud noises without being traumatized of of airstrikes coming overhead. So in terms of the morale of the people, what what are you seeing there, you're still seeing a real determination and positivity and belief or have there been some kind of ups and downs and fits and starts of just how difficult it is to maintain this for such a large a long period of time, and to have to go through these difficult conditions for so long.
Jon 1:02:23
Yeah, so I think for the, for Jungleman, some of the main city, and a lot of people who've gone into depression and all that, going back into history as well, like, when I was growing up, and like, some of my older cousins, and especially my parents age, right? A lot of people were like, really drinking alcohol. So like, and a lot of my older some of my older cousins have lost to drug abuse and drug overdose and all that stuff. So like, I think we're going back into that circle of by now like people are depressed and people are still like, in such a tight living condition and like close living condition that people are resolving, resolving and going into usage of all these substances and all that so I've definitely been seeing a lot of much more like much more people younger people in Yangon, I going out and drinking but not actually you know, enjoying per se, like, back then one back two years ago, like so, yet so, so, to this day, like even like, I will, like I will still go out sometimes I like, even when I was going out, like I would not stay till a certain period of time and I could not fully just, you know, have fun and let loose because there's so much going on. And for me, like in the city, like I would only go on a special occasion like friend's birthday or something. But even then, like, yeah, it's still it's still a process of like, people are trying to cope, like, you know, it's people human survival instinct, like they will just try to cope with whatever the situation they've been thrown to. So some of the people in the main cities are trying to cope, but definitely the actions are not helping in terms of you know, who are people, for example, the children in soccer, I'm facing all these timeouts. So yeah, it's definitely unfair. And say, say like, it's the unfair balance of how things are going around the whole country in terms of how Some of the places have been really like facing the effects of the finance and all that, but then some of the big cities get to, you know, deliver kind of almost normal life. Yeah.
Host 1:05:22
Right. So yeah, certainly there's, there's a disproportion of that, and the general mood of the populace of the people that we know that the military is extraordinarily unpopular, and whether someone is active or passive or anything in between that, that there are very, very few supporters that so many people have been harmed and traumatized in some way now or in the past. What what do you get a sense of like the overall feeling or morale or optimism is there? Do you feel that people are kind of checking out more and losing hope or or losing that optimism? Or do you feel that even a year and a half on there's still an overriding sense that it is going to be to the end, as you say, I know that you're, you and your peers are on the far end of your activism, and you're, and the actions and operations are carrying out? But in looking at the wider population? who maybe doesn't have the same mindset as you? Where do you think they're at? Do you think there there is still a really strong hope and desire to keep this going and keep the momentum? Or do you think people are wanting to just kind of let go and have some semblance of a life in front of them?
Jon 1:06:35
I think a lot of people, most of the people have tried to, like, try to, you know, as hell like try to adapt and you know, try to survive in this type of situation. But people have never actually not forgotten about what happened. And like, So, once we have, like, once the revolution site has proper control of some of the areas, then I think, like, if if the time is, if the time comes again, like people will unite in time, like to go up against this military, and to show power like, because I think it's really been about four or five months, like and ug or the other other people protest of like, we've used to do like silence twice, which still shows that we're not participating in a movement. And I like so even this. This is the John was still like, no, no one goes out. And I everyone still shows that they're still trying to show the movement of our true feelings. So yeah, I think people are just on the outside, it looks like everything's almost back to normal in the main series. Yeah. Yeah. If the time comes in, if we need to rise again, I think people will be
Host 1:08:05
coming back. Right. And I was also asking that just because that's obviously what the military wants, they want people to forget about it, they want the outside world to lose the tension and lose focus. And they want the people in the country to just kind of throw their hands up and say, you know, enough of this, I would rather have some kind of life that's very oppressive, and without opportunities and a great economy, then then just having nothing at all, and that eventually, the people would lose or the the mass of the people, there's always gonna be people that resist them, but the mass of the people are gonna are gonna lose some kind of hope and go back to normality. But you're saying that even as it might appear this way on the surface, that there's some going back to normal and some of its necessitated by just needing to survive that it's more of a standing by state of a slow momentum building towards something greater that will start to show itself above the surface. Is that correct?
Jon 1:09:06
Yeah, like, because in even in this stage, in Yangon, right, there's, especially in England, there's been a lot of arrests and like there's been a lot of they've actually the military has upped their games in terms of the arrest of people and like, they have like, it's not because they were intelligent, they were pretty much arresting every teenagers or every millennial they see. And so amongst them like, because amongst them, that they incite fear into the mass population. So we've arrested on the wrong charges of wrong accusations still have to go through all these health and that their families still have to go through all these hills of worrying and like, you know, how, how well they've been doing and how, how they will beings and all that stuff. So they've managed to incite They've managed to, they've managed to place that fear amongst the people. But I think like, for the people even in the Yangon, like, when we hear explosions and when we get on fights like, we still get excited in terms of our you know, our great and I just praying that none of our sunlight fighters were injured and I everyone's still support highly into this
Host 1:10:35
one of the new developments I've heard about, since the arm resistance took shape is the use of drones, drones can be quite effective not having the air force that the NTG claims that it has, or will have drones at least can give some kind of air reconnaissance and there's even there's even been attempts to armed drones. So they're not just giving you a bird's eye view, but they're also being a destructive force, what what has been your understanding of the role that drones have played and the resistance.
Jon 1:11:08
Um, I think that was the that was the one of our great greatest technology that has given us advantage in terms of trying to fight back to the defense line. Because in some of the rural places, in in the high hills, they will have these they are heavy artillery mortars, and, and in into a single direction of this town, they will just continue to continue continuously shoot those things like 2030s, up to hundreds per day, the whole day, they will just keep shooting all these artilleries into these directions of where the where the main population is. So I think the use of drones have actually managed for us to like their formations into those, like, highly unreachable place with the normal bullets, right. So like, yeah, right. As I said earlier, like we only have normal bullets, and like homemade homemade bombs and stuff that we've been using. So now they've, they've managed to use these tools to attack the enemy's defense line. So yeah, it's, it's a great advantage that we've got for that.
Host 1:12:41
And how have How have the drones been employed to be successful in that area? Are they doing more of the armed missions? Or? Or more reconnaissance or a mix of the two? And what ways are they being used to the greatest effectiveness?
Jon 1:12:59
On like we're using. So they're using everything, everything we can get, they can get their hands on. So um, yeah, so for the civilians, we'll be using sometimes drones for the civilians, and then for, for carrying explosive and traveling to certain locations and all that. Yeah. So we're, so it's some It's funny how drone technology was invented, and, and how we're using this in the warfare. And yeah, so it has given us such a great advantage. And a lot of our a lot of our people have, like, stepped into, like trying to learn this technology, and then trying to like, master this and then use it and it's quite, it's quite it's quite motivating to see how we're using all these terms. And yeah.
Host 1:14:05
Read the creativity has grown as the movement has taken shape, I suppose. Yeah. Just going back to your original interview, again, just want to touch upon your reactions to it and make sure we didn't leave anything out. Was Was there anything else that stands out to you when he listened to it? Or was there anything that surprised you? Was there anything in it that you don't remember saying or don't remember feeling and had to pause and remember how much things have changed?
Jon 1:14:38
Yeah, I mean, this this one thing that that surprised me was the thinking that piece. The military would not, you know, would not wait, there was one part where I was like, they will not hurt me because I hadn't And nothing wrong. Which was completely? Yeah, so now I laughed at it because, you know, just kill anyone and Dave, Dave. And yeah, right now they've changed their tactics into PA, rather than capturing anyone like, the more focused into killing anyone, like most of the people like there's less arrest and more kills within six months rather than Yeah, rather than previously when I was experiencing it thing is just for the international communities and the International Covenant, right. Like there's a lot of ways that you know more people need help but there's there's a way that they can help to really push the movement forward to get rid of this system in your mind to have Myanmar TOS help me more people have a better life and better lifestyle. So yeah, I think please help us any ways you can.
Host 1:16:19
And how can they help what what would be for people listening that do want to support in some way? What are things the and people listening I'm sure feel very far and very helpless from the car has what's going on there? What What can a normal person do outside of Myanmar? That could be of help? No.
Jon 1:16:39
I think it's the same answer. I mean, I will I will just give the same answer I've given last time is to just keep telling our stories in a sense. Because Because compensation opens up a lot of doors and a lot of a lot of opportunities for everyone. Right? So I think it's it's important for if you've made a Myanmar policy, and if you see someone who is close to Myanmar or in touch with Myanmar, 10. Yeah, talked about it. And then if you see someone who doesn't know Myanmar, educate them about it. And I think that's the only way that we can push the story of Myanmar forward.
Host 1:17:25
Right, right. And that does actually go in the direction when we're talking about telling stories and educating and sharing what's happening. Basically, you're talking about journalism, some kind of journalism and this conversation we're having now we can say this is has some journalistic element to it, we're just two people having a conversation, but it's, it's recorded, it's going to be going out to a lot more that are going to listen to it. So this is one way that local journalism is trying to play enroll. And I should mention that, for those that don't know that insight, Myanmar is bringing about several new podcast programs run by Burmese that are in the movement, some are in Burmese language, some are in English, one of them, Myanmar, revolutionary Tales is currently ongoing, has had about a dozen episodes and interviews, people in Burmese language of all all kinds and stripes about learning more about the movement and different aspects of it. So these are these can all be called some local journalistic initiatives. We, our platform is very humble and very we're our team is very small, but we're we're trying to do what we can. But if we move beyond this conversation we're having and this being one kind of journalism, and looking at journalism in general, and looking at local journalism and some of the local Burmese outlets and then looking at some of the wider bigger, international, Western journalistic outlets that are trying to inform people and educate people about what's happening. What's your call of that? What What have you seen, what have you seen with journalism, and we have to, we should definitely make clear the task of being a journalist in Myanmar is extraordinarily difficult, it has to have a lot of sympathy for the risks and sacrifices that people go through trying to report and how difficult it is to verify information and, and whatnot. That being said, looking at the role that local journalism is playing and the role that international or Western journalism is playing in educating people and informing them about what's going on. What has been your evaluation of the past year how has journalism succeeded or fallen short at trying to, to legitimately and accurately cover what's been happening?
Jon 1:19:35
Um, for the, for the local journalists and the the actual facts of what's happening in Myanmar has been a bit harder because of the because of the risks that everyone journalist is placing. But I think like for people who outside of me and mine who's who are international journalists is I think they can and like, just reach out to any new mass citizen and get the informations. And I think the more people are willing to, you know, report about what's actually happening on the ground. without, without the risk of, you know, if, yeah, if they don't have the risk of the safety and all that thing, anyone in your model, anyone who is in Myanmar, if reached out, is happy to report and, you know, talks about things and how they actually facing.
Host 1:20:39
And from what you've seen of what's been produced for the past year, and how it's been covered? What are your feelings with that? Do you find? Do you find some reporting problematic? Do you find it accurate in terms of describing and informing a wider audience? What's going on?
Jon 1:20:54
Oh, um, there was one particular in some, yeah, one particular incident, which happened, and it was, I think it was the journalist who is Myanmar who is outside of Myanmar and like, who's still playing that, you know, Hi. How you call it who plays well into the military's hand in terms of like spreading propaganda is that military wants to spread witches in the you know, local PDS are doing the violence act. Like I'm local as a Myanmar journalists. There are a lot of Myanmar sillage has been built on burned down and like there's a lot of Myanmar, actually Myanmar Myanmar citizens being killed and their families being affected. And like, for them, like there's a lot of content for if they really want to do the actual proper stories. There's a lot of incident for them to like, you know, get in touch and try to try to reach out and to Yeah, to put stories on. And yeah, there was one incident where one of the journalists was just posting like did a full article about how taking up arm men fighting cancer this night, Cinta is wrong way of doing things. And like not actually having like a public, like journalism type of thing, but actually having like, spreading propaganda type of things. So yeah, I think there was some of those incident where a lot of people were, you know, just delivering wrong informations. And not just wrong information, but like, what they what the information they think is correct. But then what, that's not what's actually happening on the ground. Yes. So just for Myanmar, journalists, just, you know, because like in full on brown as well, like, right, like in Django, like a lot of the Myanmar journalists who had to flee and like now, working from a thought brought by like trying to report back on from Myanmar. Myanmar is not how they left it, right, like they've left, right. Yeah, it's already a year that they've left. And if they haven't been back here for the past three months or two months, or like if they haven't been leaving, go into the deep details of what's happened actually happening in EMR. Yeah, the the should really just check up on the source and make sure that the source is correct. And what they're putting out to the world is correct information because it's a really sensitive, sensitive, sensitive issue with especially with Myanmar, because even with rom since Rohingya crisis why like this, a lot of false informations and a lot of false propaganda that's been spurred from the military. And it's easily easy for a normal person and like to just fall into the belief of like, Oh, if they must be right, and I even the other party must be wrong. So a lot of Rohingya people were affected by it. And like a lot of religious people were called that in terms of like, yeah, bad reputation in terms of amongst me and my people because of the fake propagandists. So yeah, as long as I mean, like people like us, we will just keep calling out to those who've sent out wrong information. So wrong type of movements, how and how much and how Myanmar should go about in terms of for the future of our country. Yeah.
Host 1:25:01
Right. So this example that you cited of a Burmese journalist that was not in the country writing information that was very harmful and very inaccurate and gave a wrong impression is, is this something you see as an outlier of someone just kind of a bad apple that was either had bad intentions or was just horribly misguided? And is a bit of an outlier from the rest of the journalism that we're seeing? Or do you see this as part of a wider pattern that that that is happening that is ongoing that's happening with other journalists, where the it's just a wider problem of of people, whether they're, they're Burmese or not, but they're not in the country? And because they're not in the country? They're, they're just not quite accurately capturing what's happening? Do you see that as a wider problem that's occurring? Or is it just really one bad apple? And one outlier?
Jon 1:25:59
Um, I think, for this case, I'm referring to is this particularly just one bad apple? buy? Buy like, for, for people, right, like for especially for Myanmar people, like I say, like, it's easy for us to like, just blame someone else. And like, say, Oh, the, they're doing bad in this, this person is doing good, because they think that person is doing good. So yeah, for all of them, Myanmar, journalists, just don't fall into that Purdon pattern of fall into the pattern of just putting their opinions on things and just do the, if you're gonna do a proper journalism to a proper journalism, and, you know, if they're gonna do an opinion piece to an opinion, piece and opinion piece,
Host 1:26:52
yeah. On the other side of it, one of the things I'm thinking I spoke to Rachel to a very well known Burmese journalist who had to flee the country, and that's currently in Spain. And he reference the difficulty of, of reporting on stories that you're trying to be factual with, but that there was such a desire among the people to want to have feel good stories, again, this goes to the false optimism, that if you were reporting, for example, that a certain battle did not go the way of the people or that there's tensions or problems in the movement, or even corruption and ug, or whatever the thing is to be reported on. If it's not good news, the people don't want to hear it. And that can be kind of understood because they're facing extraordinary difficulties. And they don't want to be kicked when they're down. At the same time, there's responsible and accurate journalism that needs to take place. So I spoke to Rachel to on the side of a journalist on that problem. And and how that's navigated. You're not a journalist, you're you're not even I would, even among the just the general people in masses, they're resisting, you're playing a integral role in the resistance movement, you're doing this every day, you're risking everything to be able to win. So your your, these are really high stakes for you. And you're you're really involved and invested. And yet, at the same time, I'm sure you also understand that journalism has its own role to play. But you're also trying to win a movement. So where do you see this dynamic coming down of how journalism can can still follow its own rules and try to be objective and yet balancing that with the desire for the people to have freedom and you working towards that with everything you have?
Jon 1:28:37
We are me like I care what you say about Rancho and the reports of you know, people don't want to hear bad news. But those are the facts on the ground, right? I will need guns and when we can kill because we don't have guns. That is the facts and like, that needs to pull out to the world so that the world knows, like, if someone wants to help, then they can help. If we're only hearing that, oh, we're doing great, then, like, why would anyone want to help? Because always you're doing so great. And why? Why would you need our help is the question that the world will ask. Right? So I think it's more important for Myanmar people to be more like, vigilant and to to be not afraid to send out the truth rather than the good news. Even for the NGO in order, right, because if like, if anybody is saying something wrong, like, you know, you should not just say straight to anybody's face and you know, get them to fix it because we're only humans. So everyone's makes mistakes. Everyone says the wrong thing all the time. Like no one can say the right thing all the time. So only one day wrong and only one day know the wrong people can fix things. So But if we just keep telling people what they want to hear, then we will just have more people like Milo in the country out of the country, in the whole world. So I think it's really important for us to keep sending out a true message rather than a good message or a truth, a true story rather than a good story. Because I think for people like people will get touch with what's more true than what's good to hear. Because what what's good to hear only lasted in, in our attention span for about four minutes, and then we move on to the next good one. But if it is actual truth, and if it is actual struggles that some of the people are facing, and it feels we didn't really touch them, then it stays with them. So from the storytelling point of view, that's what I believe in and like so as a journalist, and I think they have a good platform to actually share the truth of what's actually happening in terms of the ground situation, so that people who need helps, can help and then people who need to grow and grow. So yeah, I think, for me, from my point of view, I think it's for me, it's more important to hear the truth better than the good ones.
Host 1:31:20
Right. So it's basically talking about a higher level of maturity that's needed to be able to, to handle and understand the news as it's really developing and being recorded. So
Jon 1:31:31
yeah. Right now, the current problem the people in the activists outside of Myanmar facing is the military and the embassy and Myanmar embassy, especially right trying to vote their passports. So when they try to renew it, they will just take them passport in and then not return it. So I think, for the international community and international governments, they will, like, there will be a way to help young people. But I think that's more than Youjizz job and how they should go about. Like, if, you know, for that, if a lot of new people can becomes just possible less than stateless, then just stay we just have like, potentially attorney to refugee rather than holding a actual valid passport. So yeah, I think, for international governments, to both I mean, I send this I send a letter to energy. Ministry of Foreign Affairs, well, like flighting, we've not issued in NDG possible type of things so that, you know, people can actually have the Myanmar citizenship and still be having a valid citizen passport thing and just to go about their life outside of Myanmar,
Host 1:33:07
this is also an issue I've heard about. And there's been a real fear among those Burmese that are abroad, that how can they continue to legally stay in the country where they're at and the danger of, of being stateless? Of not being able to stay on legally and also the danger of perhaps if they can't stay back that they're sent back to Myanmar? And they're, and they're in danger there. And so this is definitely something that's becoming a wider international political issue that needs to be looked
Jon 1:33:40
at. Yeah, and yeah, I don't know what's taking anybody so long to act on it, or like, I don't know what's taking people to like speak up about it. Like, I heard stories, like some of the people who got their passport revoked, resolved to not speaking out as much as they should. So now, a lot of people are confused of what's the real information and what's not the real information, because, you know, military again, says like, Oh, they're not voting people's passport. And then people just tend to believe it. And then, like, the real story of the people who have the passport not being returned, are not like put out into the public. So we don't know how many people are at risk, and we still have no clue of how many people are going to that trouble. But I'm sure a lot of people go through it in the near future. So yeah.
Host 1:34:44
Yeah, right. And that's something that's extending beyond me Moore's borders and gets into this wider accreditation, discussion. Accreditation, not just of passports but of embassies and who works in the embassies. Of course, the UN accreditation has been a big deal. Since the beginning, and who, who holds that seat and this is something that I know Western governments have really struggled to try to understand where they can come down on where they can recognize the existence of a state and yet protest, again, against his leadership. And, you know, it's it's not an option for some Western countries to withdraw their embassies from Myanmar, because their embassies are such sources of information gathering and running safe houses and aid and other things. And so I know that that some of their hands are also tied, but one would certainly like to see them doing more, whatever that is. And even if that puts one in an uncomfortable place, I think that it's now this issue of accreditation, especially as it goes with passports and visas, is now spilling out beyond the borders and really having a risk and making people stateless or to put them in jeopardy and to put them to force them to have to be sent back where if the Burmese embassy in that country had tabs on what they were doing, what they were sharing that they would be at immediate risk when they landed. And so this is something the N ug certainly has to has to sort out in conversations with these other governing bodies of how so many of its expats and refugees and workers and every everyone abroad, Burmese exile diaspora community, or at least those with Burmese passports, how they can be protected. Given that all of the institutions right now this military regime is bent towards not serving its people but actually targeting its people. So it's that sense of a regime that is a war with people is not just physically a war in the country. But as we're seeing with this passport issue, that they're there legally and logistically at war everywhere they can be taking the fight to them.
Jon 1:36:51
Yeah, exactly. Like and like, as you mentioned, as well, like, we've, we've given up hopes on UN in terms of like, because, you know, effectively, they've been trying to help with movement, or like trying to help to the people of Myanmar. But like, there's been 1000s of cases of how this regime has been bad to their people. And I don't know, what you have read what more of evidence that they need for them to actually act in terms of to add, so yeah. So yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's one of the reasons why we have to like, you know, that's one of the reasons why now we have to, like, you know, fight for our own freedom in terms of like, taking up arms and like, all these conflicts happened. Because, like, you know, we've been, yeah, we've been, you know, crying for help, but nobody was listening. So, I mean, but it's good in a way, because now we get to cherish our freedom fully actually win when we win.
Host 1:38:05
Yeah, and you're not alone. And not understanding why there hasn't been that response. I'm just thinking of a few guests that we've had on in the past few months. And we're not recalling what they've said we had a Liam Scott, who was worth works for the global center of responsibility to protect and as an expert in RTP. And one of the questions I asked him is, are there further lines in the sand? The time that I could cross, that would be one step too far that that would just be so extreme, the international community would just finally say, Okay, this, this is now too far. Now we have to find a way to do something. And Liam just kind of shook his head and said, I don't know what lines they have left. And he started listing off, they've done this, they've done this, they've done this, they've done this, I don't know what more lines they can cross. I'm thinking of an interview we, we had with a representative of the task force team at Amnesty International, Matthew Wells, who has been on fact finding missions to Kearney State among other places, to report and he simply said that all the evidence is there. They've done extraordinary documentation. They issue reports regularly about the situation and Myanmar, which are compiled from a number of different sources and different analysis. And the information is all sitting there in front of anyone who wants to see it. And yet, the crisis is just not coming on the desk as it comes on for other places in the world that people are are just not looking at the evidence and the comprehensive documentation of amnesty and other human rights groups and not being acted on. And the final one that comes to mind is Hunter Marston, who is a scholar and has has studied many different aspects of Myanmar over his career. And he referred we had an interview with him contrasting Ukraine and Myanmar and he said something similar. He just said, I don't know why it is that Myanmar is not getting the attention. I don't know if it's because it's in a different region of the world or it's it's something Southeast Asia is seen as more exotic or, or what it is. But it's just it's not able to rise and not just now, but historically, it hasn't been able to rise to the understanding of, of international attention and in response. And so I think this just to support, what you're saying is you from your position in perspective, as you talk about the feeling of not being heard not being not receiving help, not having it be a concern of governing bodies. This is something that even beyond you, people that are are, are actively reporting and studying on this for their career, that they're seeing this at their level as well, whether that's human rights with Amnesty International, or whether it's studying it in context of Ukraine, or whether it's looking at it in with, with regard to RTP human rights. So, you know, this is, for whatever reason, this is this is just, this is the unfortunate situation that it finds itself in, and we're, we're just hoping what whatever we can do to change that if these conversations can push that needle, or if, if further documentation or or information is necessary. And in the meantime, as you said, it's you've pleaded for help and pleaded before any armed resistance formed and no help of any kind came and so many people have learned to be self dependent and to do what was necessary to to not sink into the oppression that the military is trying to create.
Jon 1:41:43
Yeah, and it's funny how the international people would not cry when military, like burned the whole village and killed seven years old kids, then then But then the international people can be like, Oh, PDF three, because of PDF, like one civilian died, and then like they make a huge fuss about it. And then they started, you know, making a huge deal about it. So I think that's the bias that's been getting for Myanmar site for Myanmar people as well. Isn't like when when, when the revolution site did something, so the fast and the damage of it is more impacted rather than when military done it. Like? Yeah, it's just military doing his military things. Like,
Host 1:42:33
right, yeah. Yeah, very unfair standards. Yeah.
Jon 1:42:38
I don't know where in which country military is allowed to kill civilian but civilians? Civilians type of thing? Yeah.
Host 1:42:46
Right. Right. Yeah. It's very unfair standards and decontextualized narratives that are born from it. And so it's what prevents that proper understanding of the conditions that people are really facing? Yeah. Well, I know it's very late there. And we've been trying to connect for last few weeks. So we're really happy that we're able to make this time work. And thanks for being able to share what you can understand what you're not able to. And just really wish you to be safe and to continued support for the democracy movement.
Jon 1:43:22
Thank you. Thank you. And yeah, thanks a lot for having me again on on this platform and getting to give me another opportunity to give an update and situations of how things are happening and
Host 1:43:44
one of the most tragic aspects of the current crisis in Myanmar is how isolated Burmese protesters feel, and in fact are thankfully, through a nonprofit organization better Burma, were able to ensure that all your donations successfully reach their intended target on the ground. So if you found yourself moved by today's discussion, and want to do what you can to help, please consider giving to our donation Fund, which is 100% directed towards supporting the democracy movement. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution, any form currency your transfer method, Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person, IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs, you can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by our nonprofit mission that or Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's BETTRBURM a.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account you can also visit either the Insight Myanmar better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.