Transcript: Episode #139: The Overturned Alms Bowl
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Ven. Vimala, which was released on December 23, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
00:00
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Samma Sambuddhassa Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Samma Sambuddhassa Namo Tassa Bhagavato Sambuddhassa
Host 00:27
and thanks for listening, if you're enjoying our podcast and have a recommendation about someone you think you should have on to share their voice and journey with the world means let us know. So it could be an aid worker, monastic author, journalist, scholar resistance leader, really anyone with some type or another to the ongoing situation in Myanmar. To offer up a name go to our website insight myanmar.org And let us know that for now just sit back and take a listen to today's episode
00:55
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01:37
a way that really gonna have a good day today.
Host 02:19
For this episode of insight, Myanmar podcast, we're talking to venerable the mullah. This is a nun from Belgium. And thanks so much for taking the time to chat with us for this episode of insight Myanmar podcast.
Ven. Vimala 02:35
Very happy to be here.
Host 02:37
Right. So let's, let's get right into one of the recent activities that you did. After that, I definitely want to take some time learning a bit about your time in robes and your connection to Myanmar. But I think it's just good to get right in directly with one of the topics that is a bit sensitive for some people and also a bit important in terms of the steps that you've taken. And we're speaking, of course, about the overturned ALMS bowl movement, which is something that you got off the ground and among monastics outside of Myanmar in solidarity. So can you take a moment to explain to us first, what is the significance of an overturned ALMS bowl? And what led you to began this response to the coup as you did?
Ven. Vimala 03:26
Well, the significance of the overturned arms boy is that the old spool is our way of getting nourishments by going on Pender. Panther, so that's an arms round, and people put food in the bowl. And if you overturn the arms vote, you refuse the food from a specific or a group of lay people supporters. And that can only be done if they are not behaving correctly. And that's why it's so important to the sign is, especially in traditional Buddhist countries, a very important sign to say like we don't agree with what you're doing, you're breaking the precepts or something that they might have done that is just not correct. In relation to the current coupe in Myanmar, it's a little bit more complex and not all monastics would agree on using that symbol for that purpose. But I think it is important and an important sign to show that it's not used the monastics within Myanmar but also in whole world who simply do not agree with this.
Host 04:47
Thank you for that and digging a bit deeper into the symbolic act on the part of monastics and the Sangha. Where does this idea come from? Is there a historical precedent or or is there anything in Buddha's life, which indicates this act of overturning the ALMS bowl as a way of rejecting arms and support and thereby merit on the part of the person who wants to give it as kind of a criticism of their bad behavior?
Ven. Vimala 05:20
It is mentioned in the Vineya. And yeah, so it's something that is already mentioned in the early texts. So it's also like something already 2000, over 2000 years old. So that's basically where it comes from.
Host 05:40
Right. And you mentioned that doing this today is somewhat controversial. Can you share a bit why it's controversial, and those people that would push against this act, what where they're coming from and why they have a problem with it.
Ven. Vimala 05:54
It's not so much doing it today, as in doing it in this circumstances of, in the case of your coop in Myanmar, because it is usually something that you do against a specific lay person who, that you come across on your ELMS round. And somebody who might want to put something in your bowl and you refuse it. Of course, in this case, you can do that, because we're not on Pender PATA in Myanmar and getting arms from the lay people there or from the military and soldiers there. And because that is no longer it wasn't possible, actually, for many of the monastics in Myanmar to do so. Because they're of the repercussions they might be facing by doing that. us doing it as a symbolic act, on their behalf was trying to send the signal to the military regime that we do not agree with this.
Host 07:06
Right. And you referenced that it was seen as controversial by some people, what what was their reason or grounding for why they would have an issue with it?
Ven. Vimala 07:17
Because it's not part of Yeah, exactly as it is in the Vineya against one person or several people who actually are trying to put something in your Elton's bowl and you're refusing it. So it's it was formed with symbolic act. And what actually mentioned in the vignette as such,
Host 07:39
right, I see in the video, of course, as the monastic standards have the regulations and rules the Buddha laid down for how monastics are to act. And so you're saying that in referencing the Vineya, set down by the Buddha 2500 years ago, there are examples and guidelines of avoiding a of not accepting food from a particular individual donor that one can be referred to, and that would be, might be legitimate still today, but taking that example and extrapolating to make it a symbolic gesture. That's a sign of solidarity, on one hand with the democracy movement, and those monks that are facing hard times. And on the other hand, a condemnation of the wider Burmese military, that making this kind of conceptual leap is something that those more strict traditionalists have some kind of problem with. Is that Is that fair to say? Exactly, yes. Right. And so, so we understand now and we're trying I should mention, we're trying to stretch this out and really explain this step by step for those listeners that are completely unfamiliar with Buddhist traditions and especially monastic traditions, to the UK could take some time to wrap your mind around why the subtleties of these rules are so important and and something so small can can bring about a such a contentious discussion. So wanting to make sure that understanding is there for everyone. So from their side, I hope we understand now why some people would find this problematic or controversial making making this conceptual leap. Now explaining from your side, in what ways do you see this first as being justified and allowable, and then second is significant and important.
Ven. Vimala 09:31
I feel that it's justified in this case as the monastics in Myanmar were not no longer able to do this because they might face penalties if they did. And therefore, we feel it's felt justified to show this as as a symbol of solidarity, and to show you're not alone. There's other monastics in the whole world that are behind you, even though you might not have much contact with them. The day are there.
Host 10:03
Right, right. Yeah, that's that's, that's really beautiful. Have you received a response from people in Myanmar who have seen what you've been doing and how you've been sharing? Have they been able to, to see the results of your work?
Ven. Vimala 10:18
Yes. Also, the Democratic voice of Burma has broadcast this, this movement and a lot of the images that we are a lot of the pictures that we collected. And also I understand that it's been broadcast into Myanmar. And I've also had a lot of response, not quite often not directly, but via various other channels of people that really appreciated what we were doing.
Host 10:49
Right. Right. That's, that's great. On the other hand, you mentioned that it has been a controversy among some sectors have, what shape is this controversy taken? Is it then just people kind of grumbling, or having private conversations? Or is it spilled out into something of more of a public debate or discourse about the appropriateness of this?
Ven. Vimala 11:08
I have not seen any public debate about it. So it's more like lettuce we received personally.
Host 11:15
Right? So let's take a minute just to understand how this movement actually took off. Now we have a theoretical grounding for what you did, why you did it, where it derived from and some of the response both positive and negative. Let's learn a bit about the movement itself. So describe your as someone who really got this off the ground, take a moment to describe your initial reaction to what was happening in Myanmar, your feeling as a monastic and then starting to lay the the ideological groundwork for what something like this movement would be. And then what happened as he started to take it off the ground and get other people involved?
Ven. Vimala 11:58
Well, when I when the coop happened, I was in retreat. So I didn't actually learn about it until summer health a April. And so I was quite shocked, because I had hoped that things would improve in Myanmar, even though it might have been a long road. But now it is, it seems to have like taken like 10 years back in time again. And I wanted to do something and I was very inspired by a picture that was going around. And I think it was in a local paper here, I can't quite recall anymore of some monks in Myanmar sitting on the steps of their monastery, making the V sign with tape over their mouths. And the first one which I take to be the abbot was holding his arms ball upside down. And I find that a very, very powerful symbol. And I wanted to do something with I wasn't quite sure how to do that. So I participated in a metaphor Myanmar session that was led by a CLA who, from Myanmar, on this was online directly broadcast for Myanmar. And there I also met a Burmese lay woman who lived its lives in Europe. And I contacted her and asked her for help. And I also contacted my friend is she and this lay woman in Europe, he was also involved in another another group that was helping to raise funds to get help to the people in the non violence movement in Myanmar. So that's why I thought he might be a good person to help me with setting this up. I have no clue about things like Facebook. So I felt that that might be necessary to have something like that. So that's also what I asked her for. And I contacted my friend if she was a big CUNY in the Tibetan tradition, who's also an activist and who runs a charity in in India, and who's also a close friend of bikeability. And so together, we actually started off writing a little letter on that we were going to send to all our monastic friends or anybody who had we had an email address off and post on Facebook and various other channels. And that also included this picture or this iconic picture of the monks in Myanmar. So that's basically how we started.
Host 14:53
Right and you're referring to the picture of the monks at Youngtown monastery. and Mandalay famous picture of their response and the initial weeks following the coup and where there was still more hope and optimism of putting tape on their, their mouths to show their inability to express themselves freely. And there's since been reports, I'm not sure how confirmed they are but reports that many of those monks in the picture have unfortunately disappeared. And perhaps some, the military took their vengeance on them. But this was the inspiration of wanting to show some kind of solidarity, some kind of support from monastics from Buddhist monastics in different parts of the world. And so this led to the idea of doing these doing this symbolic act of showing the ALMS bowl upside down, inferring that, that they did not accept that one would not symbolically accept alms as a monastic from members of the military that were engaged in this very, very unskillful action to say the least. So as you got this off the ground, what happened? What how did you start this what really became a movement? And how did other people come to be involved in it?
Ven. Vimala 16:10
Well, we started, like I said, with just an email to all our monastic friends, and we had set up a special email address for it as well. And the first picture that came in was from Banta NALEO. At first, I was really afraid that nobody would want to help. But when this picture from Bonta, NALEO came in, who is somebody I very much respect in one of the greatest monastic scholars that we have in the world, I felt reassured, and then very shortly afterwards, Bhikkhu Bodhi joined in and also other members of the monastic community where he's staying, and a lot of because bhikkhunis, all over the world sent in pictures. And so that was very lovely to see there support a lot of people from different traditions as well, Tibetan traditions and traditions, not use Theravada, who all wanted to support this. And one thing that happens also with this picture of the monks, as you mentioned, that a lot of them are, most of them have disappeared. So something happened also to our Facebook account with that picture, that picture was on a heading of our friends, or our group, I don't quite know how these things work. So but it was actually heading off our group. And the admin of this group had her Facebook banned at some point, the pictures were removed everywhere, and without explanation, and after a while the admin she could get her Facebook account back, I think he probably talked to some people with in Facebook, who also understood that she was not posting harmful content. But yet, so there was something going on around the spectrum. And what we do then is this post this picture everywhere again, do says like, please keep this picture somewhere at home or anywhere, just post this as many times as you can just as monks are not forgotten. So that is another thing that happened during this movement.
Host 18:25
And where can one find the photos that you've collected of all these monastics around the world who are turning their envelope upside down in solidarity with the democracy movement and monastics and Myanmar,
Ven. Vimala 18:39
you can find it on our Facebook group called Sangha for Myanmar, and I think the Facebook link will be posted below this.
Host 18:49
So this was really an example of bringing the practice and your background as a monastic into very pressing social issues that are occurring in the world. Of course, there are different views of to what degree practitioners as well as monastics should be engaged in the world where they should be pulling back. Something we've talked about in interviews here for you personally, if one can say this is a part of engaged Buddhism, have you done social actions like this before as a monastic?
Ven. Vimala 19:25
Not so much in this extent, but I have helped a organization called compassionate hands in Myanmar before that was before I wasn't gonna stick actually. And also sometimes helping bigger bodies organization in Germany called Mia medical fool in medical field in action, as well as my friend is she and her charity in in India
Host 20:01
Right. Yeah. And digging a bit deeper into that looking at Myanmar specifically, can you tell us a bit about your relationship with the country, this could include your time actually spent visiting the country or meditating or practicing there. Also your experience with Burmese traditions that could be outside of the country, just whatever interaction you've had either with Myanmar with Burmese people on your path or with the with different spiritual traditions and teachers from a Burmese lineage.
Ven. Vimala 20:33
I started meditation, though, the first official meditations I did with the glencar tradition, and especially specifically here in Belgium. And so I have a big debt of gratitude towards this tradition, who makes things available makes meditation available for everybody, free of charge, just on the basis of donation, and I think that was such a beautiful gift to give to the world. But at some point, I wanted also to see this country and also to become a monastic. So in 2008, to January 2008, I went to Myanmar, and I became a CLA in a monastery called tape UT, which is those of Yangon. And so I ordained there as a CLA for about a month. But this was a very difficult time, because this was still a before on sanskruti came to power. And there had just been the monks uprising in September of the year before. So they were not very keen on people coming to ordain as monastics from outside from Western countries, because you might be spies or journalists or something. And so it was a very tense time. And I'll tell you some of the stories that happened there. I was ordained. At that time, it was fairly simple, you would come to the monastery, you'd ask for ordination, and you'd be ordained to the same day. And that evening decided to go there, the asked me to come forward and sit next to him and on the other side was a monk, and that monks who spoke English and he was to translate for me. And the, the talk he gave me or the discourse he gave me for my practice was very typical. And he's the it's one of the sutras in Assam mutiny, kya, which basically says like, well, if you want to go into if you want to go into samadhi, into deeper concentration, deeper meditation, you should not talk about the government, not talk about the generals. And so it went on and on forever, like that. So this is a bit peculiar. But what I also understood is that there might be spice in among the people listening and wanting to know what this saya Dora who is having all these western monastics coming, what he's teaching them and what they're talking about. So yeah, so it was very much alive. At that time. Also, there was a lot of fear. So it was a bit of a strange, strange time, although I didn't really get all of that as because I didn't speak the language, but especially also things I've heard from friends later on his studies was just very tense, tense time. So after a month, months, I had to leave because I couldn't get a an extension on my visa. And I tried again the next year in 2009, saying, again, the same thing. I couldn't get a long term visa, and I had to leave and in two sides and Senate and I thought, oh, now I'm really going to go and I'm going to try and get a meditation visa and I'll stay for longer I'll stay for a year and I also had collected some money for compassionate hands Myanmar, I'm not actually sure if the if it still exists, compassionate hands, but we had collected money in cash to bring across the border. And the reason being that otherwise, like a lot of the money would go to the government, which we didn't want, we want it to go to the people that really needed it. And yeah, five days before my flight, my doctor said, No, you can't go because you most likely have cancer.
24:48
So
Ven. Vimala 24:51
yeah, then there was a whole rush of like, Oh, what do you do with all this money? And luckily, I had had a friend who wanted to become a monk and who was over be going there, we were going to go together. And so I managed to get the money all to him. And he took it over the border, and he took it to the people behind compassionate hands. And yeah, I stayed at home, I meditated for two months then had an operation. And that it turned out to be not cancer, but operation anyway. And the nuns in a small monastery in the south of Germany and India Vihara invited me to come and recuperate there. So I did that. And that, you know, my life took a very different turn. I've never been back to Burma after that, because I asked for ordination in that monastery. And that's where I stayed and where I became Anagarika.
Host 25:49
Let's see, thank you. That's, that's a really beautiful story of your background and go into the start of your story you talk about, it's quite a stunning scene actually coming there for a spiritual renunciation. And in the initial talk given to you after your ordination, it's a reminder not to talk about politics. And this is actually a very clever way that it's been discussed, because, of course, the Buddha was very clear that there is needless chatter. And there is there are things about the world and talking about the happenings of the world, whatever they might be, that are just not exactly skillful, or conducive to waking up and to gaining higher spiritual states. And one has to let go of certain kinds of topics of conversation that are just not skillful anymore. But this instruction from the from the Buddha is being applied here in this case, in a very specific way. So it's not just talking about needless talk in general, but it's very specifically saying, not to be concerned and engaged about certain things that are happening in the country. And politics, of course, is code word for a lot of things when politics is a is a clever word to use. Because by saying politics, it can mean like, oh, you know, this political leader and this one and these kind of these kind of mechanisms of how have kind of this messy political discourse that's going on. And okay, I don't, I don't need to be involved in that. But when you're talking politics and Myanmar, you're it's actually codeword for talking about human rights and talking about the harm being done to vulnerable communities and talking about some of the ethnic minorities and their status, saying that one is not going to talk about politics is really an implicit kind of nod or understanding that one will not talk about human rights, at least in that's how I've come to understand it living in Myanmar. So as you take yourself back to this time, you know, I think when you were going through that ceremony, there were so many things that must have been going on in your mind the forces that brought you to Myanmar, the dedication to the teacher, the desire to want to be a good yogi and a good monastic and not impose on this monastery that was taking you in and that obviously would have its own risks at play, but also coming from the west holding progressive values. There's, I imagine that moment must have brought about a certain tension and uncertainty and how exactly you respond and engage from being put in that place. Or at least that's my thought. I'm wondering, as you think back now, on that moment, what what comes to mind? And how do you see those different forces at play in the moment?
Ven. Vimala 28:34
Yes, it was quite strange thing, actually. And you also start to wonder is like, well, what is actually this Buddhism? This is a Buddhist country. And Buddha had all these lovely values of compassion and kindness, and how can this happen in a Buddhist country, and at some point after the last day, then in 2008, when the day before I had to leave, I went for a walk around together with a friend, and we got lost. And we met some people who didn't speak the language. All we had was a key hanger, which had the name of the monastery in Burmese script on it to show people where we were from. And these people were incredibly poor. They lived in in small bamboo huts, but they invited us to come and have tea wisdom, they would give us bananas and all kinds of things. And eventually, they also found somebody who could bring us back to the monastery. And yes, we feel finally we got back to the monastery and this this man that Rachel had brought us, my friend wanted to give him some money, and he was very upset. I mean, these were very poor man when he was like, no We could not accept this money from this rich Western person for bringing them back. And so like, gosh, these people do, they're so poor, and they still just want to do things because it's the right thing to do. And not for money. And that was just such an eye opener also for me. And I think maybe that has also something to do with why this could happen. Why a military regime like this could take hold of such a country because like, the people don't protest too much actually deliver very, very, very kind and loving and eating, they don't want to do something that might hurt another person. And it's, it sounds a bit strange, maybe because I think the Buddha never taught pacifism. But I think that is what is happening. I might be wrong. But that's sort of what the idea that I got.
Host 31:03
And I think it's also made a confusing situation over the years for foreign practitioners and meditators and monastics and just knowing exactly how to engage. I mean, I think about my own introduction to Myanmar, when I went the first time in 2003, and was also going to meditator. And coming from that tradition, I was hearing consistently from the teachers in that tradition, as well as going to himself and seeing in hearing speeches that he had said previously, they had been recording or reading writings, that was a consistent injunction not advice. But injunction, a demand really, that one does not get involved in politics. And again, politics is kind of the code word for human rights for speaking about or being concerned about the wider damage that the military rule was causing. And being a young and impressionable Westerner at the time, I took it as I was hearing that advice more than I was actually learning and engaging about the realities of the country at the time. And so I took that, really to heart and really, and I know a lot of meditators from that tradition as well came in with that mindset of being really clear that like, I am not taking that advice as really like a guidance to being closed off to wanting to hear that reality, and really trying to separate artificially, like, No, I'm not going to look at these things, I'm not going to talk about them, I'm not, I'm not even going to be concerned about them. Because my reason for coming here is one of practice, and that that is a separation that I had been instructed to make. And so I was striving to make it and you know, I think and I say that, as I say that now, you know I do, I think it does come across somewhat critically, because since I've been engaged in the country more, I've really seen the damage and the harm of trying to separate those two things out and really trying to be disengaged and almost uncaring or detached from the pain in reality that this military role is causing. At the same time, it's a it's really a sensitive and delicate thing to understand properly. Because you also have to look at the only way that these monasteries and meditation centers were operating were to stay clear this way. And they this is a very evil entrenched organization that has been in power for some time. And many of these centers and monasteries were faced with the decision to either engage or speak out in which they would have no presence whatsoever and couldn't have any kind of impact. Or they would have to make somewhat of a deal with the devil. And they'd be able to operate their dharma courses, their meditation courses, but they'd have to make this kind of false distinction and encourage this kind of false distinction their students to really separate the human rights abuses and the harm that was being perpetuated in the country with just purely this spiritual practice. And that, and that was the choice they had. And I know for going cup, he had hope, that by more people practicing his tradition and his teachings, that this might somehow start to change more hearts in the country and would encourage a way of of sending metta to those generals and wishing that they they not harm others and that they come out of whatever suffering so they also bring those they harm out of suffering. So it was a more direct, indirect kind of way to go about it. It wasn't a complete ignoring it it was just a methodology of let's try to change one heart, individual by individual and hope that was going To create a wave or a cascade, and that would be I think, in my understanding, at least that would be a kind of indirect path towards creating a greater chance to change for good in the country, rather than speaking about some of these abuses are taking action directly, which, which would have immediate ramifications, such as the action you took of overturning the ALMS bowl back in the day that that would have been unthinkable and would have would have had you on the blacklist for good. And so these, I'm just going into length, fleshing out this argument just to show how delicate it is. That it was that it continues to be in how one looks at being able to engage in the spiritual practice and welcome these teachings without imposing this, this wider societal and worldly view which even the Buddha was was cautioning against, while at the same time being someone who cared about the welfare of others was not selfishly just on a spiritual path and ignoring the plight and the suffering of those around in that worldly reality. And where these come together. And it's really, it can be really tough to figure out and to do so in a skillful way, with all these different conditions. So I wonder what your thoughts are in hearing that as someone who had to tangle with this directly and interact with it. What What are, what are your thoughts on on how to do this?
Ven. Vimala 36:30
Yes, I completely agree with that as the things that I ve you've been in, in Myanmar far longer than I have. So because I am also blacklisted, so to say for another reason, namely, that I'm a Bikuni. And we can ease down to or not don't exist according to do Myanmar Sangha, which is quite ironic that me doing this ARBs, bowel movements, and also many bhikkhunis from around the world joining in and showing their support is also a way of showing like, well, we are going to put aside our whatever there is between us and you support you because we feel it's the right thing to do, rather than to go bad, like oh, well, you don't accept us as bikinis, and therefore we're not going to care about you. So while you were talking, I thought of another incident that happened while I was in Myanmar. And that was a woman who came to give arms at a monastery. And he wanted specifically to give arms to the Western nuns. And I yeah, I was fairly new there. So I didn't know the ins and outs. But I was told by a friend who was also a nun there, that he was actually the wife of a military person. And she had been refused to give ounce at a time to the monks. So she wanted to at least get some merit by giving it to the Western nuns. And we did accept it actually, also, because it was very clear that he was suffering and that he so much wanted to make some good merit. And also, that whole thing isn't so black and white, a lot of soldiers didn't didn't have much of a choice, they needed to have some job to make ends meet. And so it wasn't always so black and white, this whole thing. And of course, it never is. But yeah, I can understand also going puttees point of view is to try and bring the Dharma in to me and more more and more sent my compassion, etc. I understood that going he also managed at some point to get his meditation teachers into insane prison to teach meditation to the prisoners. That is a very big step. And that is something quite extraordinary. Also, in in take you to where I was. The second year, I went back in 2009. And you probably will know about is they were building a stupid and stupid was being built by
Host 39:20
prisoners. Yep. Right. Yeah. 50 prisoners and blew me away. I remember that.
Ven. Vimala 39:25
Exactly. And some of the Westerners they came there, they couldn't understand the ideas like what is the side is like employing these prisoners do work and how can you do that? But I understood that more as as an act of compassion. Seidel said, well, otherwise they do consent them to work on some road somewhere in the middle of nowhere in the heat, and with hardly any food and here they are getting shelter, they're getting good meals, they're getting food and they're doing something that makes merit and for them that's important. So I could saw it more as an act of compassion for those prisoners, and also a way off. Yeah, also, in a way, helping to bring the Dharma into the government in that way.
Host 40:15
Right. And I remember that I was there for I did a self course, while those prisoners were doing work. And it was, it was a very conflicting kind of thing. Because everything you say is correct, that they were better off at that monastery that say it I had had had some special kind of relationship with someone in Iraq, someone in some part of government, maybe in the prison sector, but I think had come in and taken a course and was really impressed with him. And so wanted to offer this. And in one sense, it was, it was kind of good all the way around the monastery got to have worked on and improvement and the prisoners were able to do something, at least for those that were Buddhist and supported that were able to, and maybe they maybe prisoners who came got to it was voluntary, they got to choose if they wanted to go there someone else somewhere else, and they were probably taken care of better there. So all these things are kind of for the favor. But at the same time, it was just kind of awkward being in a monastery where there was basically a chain game. I mean, it was basically they were wearing semi prison uniforms, and they were working all day long. And to be sitting here in silence, taking this course and seeing these prisoners that were the ones contributing to the beautifying and the construction of the monastery, it was that it was one of those things again, which just left you feeling a bit conflicted and understanding certainly understanding their side of how this is probably the best option for them of all the options they have in front of them. And yet also just feeling like well, this is this is still just kind of odd that somehow the SE they got, you know, free labor from or semi free labor from from 50 prisoners to just come and build this monastery that then I'm enjoying. But I think this also speaks to just the overall complexity that is Myanmar and that is Burmese Buddhism within Myanmar.
Ven. Vimala 42:03
Yeah, absolutely. And it's just such a complex situation, then I find it at least for me to to make a judgment on the things I find very, very complex. Although, when it comes to like the military, killing people, maiming people torturing people, then of course, that is very clear. That part but the whole political thing about Yeah, what is right and wrong gets sometimes a little bit blurred.
Host 42:36
Yeah. Yeah, really is. If we could just take a step back and look at who said it was that you Toya Seda, the one that you Ordained with, I went to the monastery many times as well then he was kind of like a rising star that came from nowhere and just shot into supernova overnight. I mean, he went from being a name that no one had heard of, and just even, there was a select group of foreign practitioners that had heard through him one way or the other and started flocking there. And then he got attracted more attention within Burmese society and is now quite well known there. He was a previously a teacher, even as a monk in the Glinka system, which was quite unusual at that time to have a monk assistant teacher. And he then stepped down to, to start his own tradition that was, and for a time, it had a lot of enthusiasm among going meditators. It was known, kind of as a Glencoe monastery as a which was not quite accurate, but it was known as a place where practitioners from the Glinka lay community could come and ordain and basically practice something that was more similar than the, to the Gonca technique than most of the other monastic traditions out there. So it got this kind of moniker as a, as a going monastery where one can come and ordain and still more or less stay in the tradition, but it was a bit more complicated than that. But in any sense, can you share a bit about where you heard of wsa it and what made you want to make such a dramatic and drastic decision to renounce and ordain under the say it and then what your experience was learning under him and in that kind of practice environment?
Ven. Vimala 44:26
Well, that's exactly who you mentioned, was the Glencoe practitioner. I had heard about saya doll when it was still in the very beginning day. So I think I was, I think, just search Western person who came there to ordain even though I only stayed for for for one month at that time, and there were two nuns who had had been there for a year at that time when I came. And yeah, it was exactly how you how you described it. This I, I had asked also my teachers within the guanghan tradition here in Europe. And if I could go there, and they said, Yes, that would be allowed, and I would still be able to serve and said long courses in the grand tradition afterwards. And I think this needs a little bit of explanation for the people that don't know the going cup tradition. So you're in the Quaker tradition, if you meditate in that tradition, and you want to sit longer courses and attend a course, like 20 Day or Sati, Putana chorus they have as well, or 30 or longer, then you should commit to that tradition solely, and not practice any other techniques. And there are no actually actually no monasteries or so where this is practiced. But as if you had been a teacher in this tradition, and just started off, it was okay for me to go there and still keep that continuity of my grandpa technique, practice going. And therefore, I could come back to Europe and then also sit longer courses afterwards. So that's the the one big reason why I wanted to go there. And the other reason was that I had heard that there were some non stares from Western nuns, who I'd also known as lay people in Dominica, in England. So that's why I also wanted to go there, too, because they were there.
Host 46:39
Right, yeah, I know that nuns who you're referring to, they were also big influences on my life. And venerable Canada has been a guest on this podcast, as well. So. So that's what brings you there something similar for both of us in terms of how it got on the radar, and how we started to gravitate towards there. What was then your experience of spending extended time, both at the monastery, which was a very, very powerful place for me, and for others, I know who came as well as under the instruction of the guidance of W Toyota.
Ven. Vimala 47:13
It was a very lovely experience. I told you already about the little talk I had in the beginning of when I ordained but after that, there was a lot of care, a lot of compassion from saya Dora to teach me and to teach me also in English. So there was a lot of time that he spent with the monk who could translate to help me along on the path. And I very much appreciated and I have a lot of gratitude for him. To him for that. My name funeral was also the name that he gave me. And so that's why I'm still carrying that.
Host 47:56
Right? What stands out from that experience of you've had now up to this point in your life, you've had so many Buddhist and meditative and monastic experiences. And I'm sure they're all there, as you think back and remember the different stages, there's different things that stands out as being distinct and giving you something here or there that helped you along the path. And that was different from the others. So as you think about that monastery and say that what really stands out with that?
Ven. Vimala 48:26
Hmm, that's a good question. I think it's also the first time I was in a monastery, and I met a monk and could converse with a monk even though through the meditator through a translator, and yeah, just being there and sitting there and feeling this compassion that it was something very new to me. Is this this care and compassion that he gave me at a time? Yeah, for me, that was something very special. I've never experienced that before, because it was still very different from all the greencard courses I'd done before. So that's really stands out for me is that I can still visualize this image of me sitting there by his side and the translator monk on the other side. Yeah.
Host 49:30
Right and how about Myanmar in general, just you're especially coming from, from the blanket tradition where one hears in that tradition one just hear so much about Myanmar being the origin of the teachings of this lineage and this kind of spiritual homeland and everything else. And so coming and experiencing Myanmar, the country, the Burmese people, the different traditions? What What was that like for you?
Ven. Vimala 49:57
The one thing that really struck me was the Chi As of two people, one time I went on pinup Panther on arms round with the monks. And as a nun, I was not allowed to carry a ball, but I could walk behind the monks. And they would go to a nearby village and about five kilometers walk, I sink on bare feet over the gravel. And the finish was very, very poor. And people all came out. And they were so happy also, to see me even though I wasn't really going on ELMS route, the ones that you could speak a little bit English would say something. And I find this such a beautiful experience is like the women would pick up their children, their little babies to also guide them to give a little spoon of rice in the balls to also make marriage and that was just so much joy in that whole process. So and yeah, like my story before, when I got lost people with this cell incredibly kind. And yeah, before I came to take UK, I took a little sightseeing tour. Also to the grand car center, of course, in Yangon to the also to the form of saya Tenshi, crossed the river. And we stayed overnight at that farm. And it was a lady in the village, the farm was abandoned. But they gave us the key and we could stay there. There was the lady in the village that cooked for us every night and we were complete strangers. And it was just so lovely. And so much kindness and care. That's just so unknown almost in. Yeah, it really made me touched me.
Host 51:50
And I think these stories are so important because especially now as you hear about the problems Myanmar is going through as a society and politically and how and how much the economy has collapsed. So much of what is told about Myanmar, in in the media is about it being in a failed state or needing all kinds of support, just really needing so much. And I think this gives this then starts to give a kind of view or stigma to the country that is just a place always in need. And when we hear these stories, the stories that you're telling, and so many, not just hundreds, but 1000s of other foreign practitioners have shared and in coming and being taken care of in this way. You it starts to reframe the country in a more dynamic and multi dimensional way, that it's also a giver, it's also a provider, it's also a teacher. It's also a place with extraordinary generosity. And I think it's so important to know those stories and acknowledge them and bring them out, that can balance that competing narrative, that it's just a broken place that's always in need of more help, because this, this is true in some way. But yet, it's also true that it's this extraordinary giver and welcoming people to come from all backgrounds and just just showering them with support and generosity as you described in some of these anecdotes.
Ven. Vimala 53:13
And I think that's really where the Buddhist teachings have taken hold in that country is like this lived experience of this incredible compassion, generosity, etc. And maybe that's just not all groups. I mean, the military, they seem to be some kind of outside group that are ruling out trying to impose their power on the the other people. But I could be completely wrong about that. But that's how it feels to me almost. I also remember when the cyclone artists truck, and the reports that would come out of Myanmar is that people will just go to the take any car, they could find Odin up in the supermarket and go into that area to help the other people to feed them. Nobody was like waiting to say like, well, the government should do something. Everybody was just immediately in action. It's like oh, there's people there that need help. And we're going to help them we're not going to wait for all kinds of official organizations to do so we are going to help them yeah, all these things this feeds so much for the spirits in of Myanmar. And yeah, that's what I found also so important in the help I could give to this organization I mentioned earlier compassion intends to be able to go to villages and make a well for the village make a school for the children bring school materials so they could learn and set Riyadh cetera that there is this is so much goodwill to help each other when you're in need this togetherness that you, you don't find so much anymore in our western world.
Host 55:20
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's That's very true. And as you talked about having to navigate through these different parts of Burmese society, I'm also wondering if there was, you mentioned you frame at the beginning of your renunciate journey, how you were given this injunction on your ordination, that you were not to talk about politics or government or, you know, aka human rights, with your as your time as a monastic, which is really for your safety, as well as the safety of the monastery, as you proceeded through your life in Myanmar and through your your practice or travels or interactions with Burmese people. Did did this kind of intersection or conflict come again? Did you have other encounters that showed this kind of uncomfortable dynamic between the messy world and the corrupt, unstable society that was housing, this beautiful tradition that you were also part of, and did that come into conflict at another point?
Ven. Vimala 56:24
Well, I didn't stay in Myanmar very long, I basically only been there for literally two months, slightly more, because of visa issues. And when I wanted to go back, I couldn't. So and then my life took a different turn. So I haven't been there for very long, but I haven't been in contact also with people within Myanmar, as well as some of the CLAS. Like some of them have now come back to Europe to set up centers here. And it just seemed to be like, the conflict seem to be like, around every corner in that time that I will stare is like, it could be era, you could make a remark, very well meant or whatever. And it could trigger a response of like, ooh, don't talk about that kind of thing. And you it really brought it home. So I guess that people couldn't talk. And they also didn't want to talk to you if you talked about anything that was uncomfortable in that sense, because it could negatively impact on them. One time I was with my friends, I was sitting having a coffee or tea near the sweater gone. And a man joined us. And he was telling he was he used to work in Singapore. And so he was a little bit more westernized. I had the impression a young man. And then while we were talking, there was an old turn looking older man come to stand behind him. And then behind us another one. And you're like, Oh, my God, we have to get out of here. And especially when these young men started a little bit talking about politics that we saw, like, Okay, we have to cut this off and safety as well as our own, but more for his safety. And we have to go. So we did and we made an excuse, and we laughed. But it seems to be like everywhere, almost invisible. This danger of like constantly being watched.
Host 58:45
And when you tell the stories about Cyclone Nargis, which I was also there for it reminds me of a comment that a Burmese friend has told me about the current revolution in just noting that they have as a whole, the Burmese people have such low regard for their government and their authorities that they don't even really have a hope of being cared for by them or having any kind of welfare state or any kind of support. They just, they they simply want them to not interfere with them being able to survive. And so that example of going to support the people impacted by Nargis and the delta. That what as you mentioned, it was just Burmese people of all stripes from all directions, just getting in cars and boats and just trying to help out and in many cases, the Burmese military stopped them. They they some cases, they the best scenario, they probably just sent them back. In other cases, they stole the goods that they were trying to deliver as aid and donations and in the worst of all cases, they might have arrested them or made them pay a bribe and so even just in taking actions to help one another and be able to to improve their society on their own. I've had it explained to me we just we don't even have faith that the we can have a government that can actually do good for us. We just want them to not stand in the way of us trying to take care of ourselves. And so there really is that kind of supported community spirit. So getting back to the present moment and the arms ball movement, you're doing it. It's, it occurs to me that you're in this kind of uncomfortable intersection of that that's brought about by this movement. You're, you've launched, I wonder if you've felt the reaction from any of these corners. So like, on one hand, you're a monastic who is showing support and solidarity for for Burmese monks and Burmese people at this time. And you've already mentioned how you had some pushback from some of the more traditional elements of the Sangha and Western monastics people outside Myanmar that are saying this is the way that you're involved is perhaps not correct. But then within Myanmar itself, you know, monastics don't really have a great name right now for a couple of reasons. One, is the prevalence of nationalist monks and monks that have really been apologists and even blessed the the military and have not stood with the people. And I've really gotten the attention, not just of the Burmese people for their stance, but over the course of the last several years of the wider international community. And I would suggest even that the way for people that don't know much about Burmese Buddhism, and are so educated that there's this kind of blanket suspicion that the entire song guys lean towards leans towards nationalist and militaristic and anti Islam. And so there's been these wider characterizations that the greater monkhood and and Sangha within Myanmar is, is nationalistic. Basically, that's, that's one concern. Another one is that in among Generation Z and the protest movement that's developed in Myanmar, there's been a kind of feeling that because the monks have played such a small role in this current movement, that they're kind of irrelevant, that it's, they don't, they just simply don't have much bearing. And they're kind of a relic of the past. That is not so critical for this current moment, the current moment that we're in and sometimes when I've had Burmese guests on the podcast, and I've asked them about the role that monks or nuns could play, I often get a kind of silence, silence in the sense that they haven't really thought about it. They've they've started to see this segment of their society is so irrelevant, because they haven't been involved, that they're not even really thinking anymore about what relation they could have or what role they can play. And so it's interesting to me that you're taking this on and you are potentially getting it from all sides. You know, you're getting it from Western traditionalists who think that you're going too far you're getting it from those in and out of the country that are seeing monastics as as being something of a nationalist stooge, based on a few firebrands, unfortunate that they've gotten so much prominent attention, and then also just the growing irrelevance of the monkhood, as seen by Democracy advocates who don't see them as really joining them to the same extent that they are. So I saw as you take this action really charting a different course than the stigma of these three different perspectives or prisms through which one might look at the Sangha. I'm curious like what reaction you might have gotten, or where you see yourself in your movement or the type of monastic community that you want to represent where you see that fitting in with some of these, these other perspectives that one has started to see of monastics and Myanmar or monastics that are being engaged in social issues.
Ven. Vimala 1:04:07
Well, I think that this coop has been planned for some time and that there is probably also been some discussion about the Sangha as because the Sangha has always been very powerful and a very powerful force within Myanmar. And so that might must have been some kind of worry, I would think. And you also sees that any monks who dared to stand up in whatever way faced very Yes, faced repercussions in in ways that, yeah, they disappeared, were killed. We don't know what happened to them. That sends a very powerful message also to the Other monastics since like stay out of this or else, if you say anything at all, we will find you. And of course, that's that's very scary. Even just the simple action is like of turning the Elm spot, which was still a possibility to do during the monks uprising in 2007 was an act for which you could get in prisons or or even killed. So I suspect that that was one of the reasons why there is also a lot of silence and where, why, maybe monastics then saying like, Oh, the only thing we can do is turn to the Dharma, turn inside ourselves, and just work on this, this, this meditation, our practice, and try influence things in that way in some way. Of course, there's also others that are very nationalistic, and that are more on the forefront and might come more in the news as well that people hear about, but I certainly refuse to believe that it's the majority of the Sangha.
Host 1:06:14
Right, thanks for that. And I also want to come back to what you've referenced a couple times in this conversation where you've mentioned that you've actually been blacklisted to even return to Myanmar to practice. This is long before the coup happened. Can you describe the circumstances around that?
Ven. Vimala 1:06:30
Well, I I don't mean it's so literally as being blacklisted. I don't know. But I don't maybe I could go back or maybe I can't. But SSB Cooney there are no Pekinese in Myanmar. No foodie or dank nuns, according to their own loss of Ministry of Religious Affairs between these don't exist. There have been bikinis in the past Burmese bhikkhunis, who have gone to Sri Lanka to get ordination. Only one of them or maybe two that I know of have returned. And the first one was immediately thrown in jail have been stripped off her robes have been tried. They've tried to force her to say that he wasn't really Bikuni, et cetera. But eventually, and I think under international pressure, they released her and put her on an airplane to Sri Lanka. She became a bikini there again. But due to the PTSD, that that followed, he wasn't able to retain that. And I think he has asylum now in the USA. So that's the situation of bikinis in in, in Myanmar. And the thing for foreign bikinis, it's sort of okay, they can't really do so much for you or against you, but you won't be accepted as a bikini. So yeah, that's a bit of the situation with with bikinis in Myanmar. So as that I'm not accepted as a Bikuni, to the Myanmar Sangha.
Host 1:08:14
Did you try to visit and you weren't able to? Or did you just realize that once you decided to become a Bikuni, that that wouldn't be possible?
Ven. Vimala 1:08:21
It would be more difficult? I think there are so many companies that do go by do go to to Myanmar. My Jana bhikkhunis, they usually don't have a problem because they're seen as my Jana. And other bikinis, I think that they just put on the robe of a c'est la and just, yeah, go to the country, as they say La and they can also as long as they don't cause any any problems and they can go to the other like, No, I've never tried to come back to Myanmar afterwards. My life just took a different, different road. And, yeah, for the as I ordained within a Thai Sangha, there's also the thing of like, not handling money and things like that, which is sometimes a bit difficult, I think in in Myanmar, so you have to have some lay supporters who can support you in that. And I haven't really tried to organize that or look for that.
Host 1:09:26
Right, right. And for those listeners that are new to this, this is a really complex issue and something that we do want to devote more shows to looking at, specifically because it is quite important, but just to give the basic definition for those that might be a little confused there. We're using these terms Bikuni on one hand, and on the other the lession or a CLA Can you break down the difference in these terms?
Ven. Vimala 1:09:50
Yes, of course. Yes. So when I first came to Burma, I was also ordained as a tila. It's one or the also called c'est la. vie. And there's basically on what's called eight precepts. So you have eight rules to keep. There's also another form of theologian that have the keeps 10 rules. And as two versions of that, again, there's the publisher, which means it going forwards, which means you don't handle money anymore or there is the matter rule, which is also used sometimes. But there was yeah, this is a very long story, actually. But I will try to summarize it. At the time of the Buddha bhikkhunis were the women who ordained and they were ordained in a way that was same as, as the monks basically. And that lasted for quite some time for especially in in Sri Lanka, but also in Sri Lanka, that Bikuni order died out, and also the Bhiku ordered monks order died out there because of famine and wars and cetera. And they re imported the monks order back from Burma, but not the Bikuni order because it had never come to Burma in the first place. And so, actually, the between order died out for about 1000 years, and we've it's only in the 90s that it started to be resurrected again by several very brave women is especially in Sri Lanka, but also non Slyke Aya Khaimah etcetera we were pioneers in that field but so would women did before that time and also still doing because the bikini order is still very much yeah, in its in its infancy. And so most of the nonstick you see walking around in the white robe nuns in Thailand and the Celada sorry, does the sila Mata in Sri Lanka and also to see lace and Tila Shin in in Myanmar, they are not considered as equal to the monks. They are. Basically the women wanted to ordain, they wanted to practice Buddhism as a monastic, but they were unable to because the Bikuni order had died out and already, according to the vinyasa, to reestablish the Bikuni order, you need five bikinis. So that doesn't actually work if there's no more bikinis in the world. So the way it has been now reestablished again is through the Mahayana nonce. And that is given some problems because it is not recognized by a lot of traditional monks. But say that women actually they wanted something anyway, they wanted to ordain, they wanted to practice teachings. And therefore they took up this sort of new form of eight or 10 precept loans, rather than fully ordained nuns. And that has been like that for hundreds of years. So that's what you see when you go to Thailand to Burma to Sri Lanka quite often, but especially in Sri Lanka to Bikuni order is taking off more and more and there's a couple of 1000 bikinis there now. So there it's it's really flourishing, and it's also slowly spreading to other countries. There is some fully ordained nuns in Thailand, and also in Western countries.
Host 1:13:57
Right so this goes back to how many precepts the monastic is keeping this is really what it's centered on and for the Coos are keeping 227 rules this is this was laid down by the Buddha whereas the list you can say La and we should mention c'est la literally means little teacher can be translated as de la Shin can be translated as like a master of virtue Master, master of Sheila for those that know the word. So these are these are more diminutive than I a full, proper monastic. And the the issue at its core is that in a Buddhist society such as Myanmar, you you get greater merit by being able to support those that are either attained or practicing a nobler path. If monks are supposedly following the tour and 27 precepts as we know it's kind of counterintuitive because that's not exactly the case that those are all followed strictly. But if the belief is that they are following the 227 precepts, thereby giving to and supporting a monk a Bhiku is is providing greater merit for the person giving and because there is no none order, that no puny order, we should say. Because of that there, the the nuns in Myanmar are only recognized at being able to follow 10 precepts maximum and thereby their, their spiritual worth is is lower than the monks. And they operate this, this kind of this kind of ambiguous zone between being a lay person and a spiritual practitioner who's renounced somewhat and being not quite being a full monastic and this is, as we've mentioned, this is a whole other conversation to get into the dynamics of this of exactly where they're ambiguity tends more towards the lay life and where they're ambiguity tends more towards a kind of renunciate their spiritual life. But because they're not able, they're not recognized at being able to follow more precepts, they are not able to ascend to these spiritual heights. And the spiritual authorities one can also say in Myanmar society, so they're not honored or supported to the same extent as the monks. That's my general understanding at least, would you? Would you add anything to that?
Ven. Vimala 1:16:26
Yes, absolutely. Because this is a much wider issue is this a worldwide issue of the Bikuni order and how that fits in and what its history is then just hit the just Myanmar. The fact that Myanmar is still the most closed country to where bhikkhunis are still not even accepted. As for instance, Sri Lanka is big, although it's officially not recognized yet in Sri Lanka, and neither is it in Thailand, the bhikkhunis are there and they are being supported by the people there while in Burma, that it's simply not possible at all.
Host 1:17:15
That's interesting. So you think that the, the the life of a nun is perhaps more disadvantaged in Myanmar than other Buddhist countries? Is that fair to say?
Ven. Vimala 1:17:28
It's definitely less equal. I, my own experience as a theologian, was that there was a lot of support. I don't think I can really speak from a very, I was in a privileged position there. As a Westerner, first of all, I think you get more support from the then Burmese women who want to become Tila Shin, I was also in fairly rich monastery. So all these things play into it. So I can't really say how that situation is. But I have heard stories of nunneries in Burma, that with hardly any support and food, and this was not just recent, this is an ongoing issue that has an older you'll see that same thing you see happening also in other countries, for instance, in the Tibetan traditions, but yeah, I have the feeling that it's very difficult for women in Myanmar to take that path.
Host 1:18:50
Right. Well, certainly an important topic and one that this platform is going to continue to explore. We'll we'll close off here for now in the space of of this conversation, bringing coming back to the start of the talk, where we're going back to this movement, I want to go back to this kind of tension that exists between when when you are a monastic that on one hand, by virtue of being a monastic, you have renounced certain parts of the world, certain attachments, certain concerns, and have placed a spiritual path on a higher plane than the more worldly engagements. On the other hand, that's one part of the tension. That's the the push of the push pull. The other part of it is that there is there's also a commitment to to that society and to those lay supporters. If the Buddha was very clear and the rules he played, he laid down that there was to be a reciprocal, ongoing, lay monastic relationship, it would have been very easy to create a different set of rules where the monastics lived and functioned completely apart from lay society, and were left to their own devices in which case it would be hard to Imagine how the monastic community would have survived one generation to the other. So by having that reciprocal relationship that allowed the lay and monastic communities to grow over the years, as they've done for so many centuries and even millennium, but in the present day there is that consideration there is that that question that tension of where and how does one renounce and pull away? And where does one have a greater social engagement and commitment and responsibility to that society? And what as someone who's been a monastic for so many years, and I'm sure you've thought about this issue, and then with Myanmar, with the movement that you started with the overturn ALMS bowl, you thought about it even more, because that was a way of social engagement. So how have you come to understand this dynamic for yourself?
Ven. Vimala 1:20:50
Well, first of all, if you're not really like, on the one hand, you have to practice for yourself in order to see how this mind body structure works. And to be able to pass that knowledge on to other people, you can't go and teach, if you don't know what you're talking about, basically. So you can only teach what you already know. So that's why it's also important to, to find truth within yourself. But also while doing so you notice greater compassion for other people. And I think this, I think, Woods often this engaged Buddhism is called compassion in action. And that's basically what it is, you also feel this need to help other people out of suffering. So day two can practice and like if you see people starving, you're not going to start teaching them how to meditate, you feed them first. So I think it's really important to also help other people help our fellow people in Myanmar, because how can they sit quietly on a cushion and meditate in pretense about all these things are going on. And that doesn't work. You have to have some environment where it's safe, where you can practice. And so that's where compassion in action comes in. I think it's very important to help people to come to a place where they can practice the Buddhist teachings and make sure that as Buddha's teachings also live on.
Host 1:22:36
Well with that I thank you so much for joining us and taking the time to share your background your relationship with Myanmar as well as some of the support that you've harnessed with your fellow for monastics and and just just really great to get your voice on here.
Ven. Vimala 1:22:50
Thank you very much. And it was lovely to be here and wish you all the best with the in laws legal.
1:22:59
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Host 1:23:34
new for a lot of podcast listeners. As soon as the fundraising request startup, you kind of just zone out and skip ahead till it's over. But I ask that if you've taken the time to listen to her full podcast that you also take the time to consider our spiel. Some may assume that producing a two hour episode wouldn't take much more time than the conversation itself. So much goes into it. In advance of the interview, our content team reviews the biography and relevant works of the upcoming guest. And we discussed the best way to use our limited time together. After the interview is complete, the raw audio file is sent to our sound engineer who shapes it into working order. A single episode can take several full days of solid production work in the studio, which is then carefully coordinated with our content team to ensure smooth listening. further edits and post production magic bring the eventual episode to your ears, along with extensive written descriptions of each interview, which we publish on our blog and on social media as well. Many of these steps require an outlay of funds in some way or another. We hope that each episode helps to inform you about the ongoing crisis. And if you find it a value we also hope that you can consider supporting our mission. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution in any form currency your transfer method. Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions at those local communities who need it most. Donations are direct To the such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's BETTRBURM a.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause. Both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either the Insight Myanmar better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support Masaka
1:26:39
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