Transcript: Episode #138: Paint It Black
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Paing, which was released on December 16, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:34
During the current crisis unfolding in Myanmar events are happening so fast, it can feel challenging just to keep up with them. And we're working to increase our podcast production to stay abreast of this ever changing crisis. Besides our podcasts, we encourage you to check out the blogs on our website insight myanmar.org where you can also sign up for the regular newsletter. You can follow our social media as well just look for insight Myanmar on your preferred platform. With that, let's head into our show. Hey, Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha yeah, maybe that is. And for this episode of insight, Myanmar podcast, we're really happy to be joined with Pineland noun. That was flower bed that you heard in the introduction leading into our actual interview, by now, of course, is the musician behind flower bed. And we're going to be talking a bit about his background and their music. So thanks so much for joining us here.
Paing 02:46
Yeah, thank you for inviting me to the podcast.
Host 02:50
Yeah. So before we get more into your life, why don't you just mentioned something about the track we just heard leading into the interview flowerbed a bit about the background or meaning or anything else you'd like to share about that?
Paing 03:02
Well, I chose it because it's the first song I have ever written. And I love the song.
Host 03:11
Right? What do you love about it?
Paing 03:13
Well, is that you know, it's just the first song and everything. And we always use it when we go up on stage. And we will always play it first.
Host 03:24
Right? I see so good that we played it first here as well. And let's get into some of the background before you became an artist and leading up to making that song and several others. Tell us a bit about where you came from and growing up.
Paing 03:39
Well, I was born in Yangon, Myanmar, and I've been here for my entire life. And growing up. Yeah, I just grew up here. So yeah, there's not a lot to talk to talk about there.
Host 03:52
Right. So knowing a bit about recent Burmese history, I think the era that one grows up would of course affect quite a bit their freedoms, their their education, their access everything else. So what was the political and even creative environment like as you were growing up at that time?
Paing 04:11
Well, there was not a lot of creative or anything when I was growing up. We just listened to propaganda songs and did like copied songs like It's like covers, but it's done it Burmese. So yeah, growing up, we don't have a lot of things. I'd remember not having Well, a lot of things.
Host 04:35
So and what do you remember being young and being exposed to that propaganda and how you reacted to it? Like did you buy into it at first or did you resist it from the start, or did you have a moment of awakening with it?
Paing 04:48
No, of course I was into it because it's everywhere. I mean, it's a school, it's an advertising and everything and we only have one TV channel and all we watched was propaganda. errors in everything is almost almost everything is propaganda. I mean, you can see it in movies. Yeah. Everywhere in music and everything.
Host 05:12
Can you give an example of like the type of propaganda message that was going on back then and then not just the propaganda message, but then how it impacted you when you heard that message, how you started to believe in it or form and understanding based on that. Okay,
Paing 05:29
one thing we always see on TV is how military generals are making donations to monasteries, and the monks. It's, they're always showing that it's like, these people are helping people, generals, military generals are doing everything, they're everywhere. And another thing I remember was about dams, like big dams being built, because they were always thinking about dams being built, how Myanmar is really rich in natural resources, and how these big dams are gonna help us, you know, have electricity 24 hours, and we still don't have it.
Host 06:11
Right, so there was always generals donating to monks or to poor people, or building bridges or putting up a new wing of a hospital or a school or something like that. And so you this was the type of propaganda that you were seeing and hearing about visually. And then what what impact did that have on you growing up? You? You say you bought into that?
Paing 06:34
Yeah, I guess so. I mean, because everything, it there's only one TV channel, and it was on there all the time. So yeah, I think I bought into it.
Host 06:45
So did you have like a moment of awakening of realizing that things were not as they seem what the media or? Or did? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. When? Do you remember when that was?
Paing 06:56
Yeah, I think it was about when I was turning around 1780. And internet was starting to open up, we could watch YouTube and stuff by then I think we were using VPN or something. But yeah, we were able to watch and I was really into Wikipedia, I started reading things. And you can see how different ideas and how Western media is portrayed in our country. And I started to think, Well, maybe not everything is true.
Host 07:30
And as you started to take in this different reality, and different truth, how did that affect your Outlook or impact you in general?
Paing 07:39
I think is making me more open minded. And how can I say, I think are more susceptible to all their opinions.
Host 07:56
So growing up with this kind of propaganda, you know, of course, there's different different states in the past generation have had their own kind of insular culture, Russia, China, North Korea, Iran are some places that come to mind and I've definitely spoken to people in those places about what it was like to believe that kind of insular message and then kind of thinking of the movie The Truman Show, if you've if you've seen that of someone was Jim Carrey. Yeah. Right. Right. Basically living in a reality show and yeah, realize the, the, the fakeness and the artificiality of it and the presence of the real world outside and I've I've spoken to people from those countries and others that when they realize the truth outside what they've been told internally, it is this kind of reformulation and re examination of, of what was believed there. So is, is that anything similar to what you went through? Or if not you, do you have friends or family that that maybe were still trapped in the Truman Show, or those that had real moments of awakening and breaking out of it?
Paing 09:07
Well, politically, I don't think anyone is stuck in those animal but religion wise, I think, yeah, people are still stuck in there. So well, because you know, how the military is now using religion to how do I say, to influence people, and it has always worked
Host 09:30
that way. And by religion, you mean Buddhism? Yeah.
Paing 09:33
Buddhism and not just Buddhism, they're using Christianity and even Islamic to Yeah.
Host 09:42
And how have you seen that impact the religion?
Paing 09:46
Well, it hasn't impact much on religion, but on the people, you know, people starting to denounce their religion and stuff after the Rohingya incident and the coop I think most people just open their mind and started to see like how Buddhism is controlling people in influence and people. You know, there's a lot of hate going on in Facebook and everything, and most of the monks were behind it. And by monks, I mean Buddhist monks. And you might know Mahabharata. Yeah, they will lead in the chart, they will lead in these nationalistic ideas and anti Islamic, anti Islamic propaganda as against the people and this everywhere on the media and the social media.
Host 10:44
So, when you talk about denouncing Buddhism, are you seeing people denounce the way that Buddhism is being manipulated by some of these monks that are cozy with the generals or you seen a denouncement of the actual core of the Buddha as a historical person as a teacher as a as a set of teachings? 2500 years ago? What exactly what part exactly a Buddha has been to now
Paing 11:10
it's more about the monks being closely with the military generals and like, being part of the channel site. Right.
Host 11:21
Yeah, one thing I'm wondering is, as I'm watching these fault lines kind of develop with the way this has been playing out, since the coup, especially as seen where some of the younger generation might be denouncing and leaving behind Buddhism altogether, and where they might be trying to navigate away to follow some aspect of the Buddha's teachings while denouncing the the way that the faith has been manipulated in society. So I'm wondering if those two options or roads like what it is you've been seeing in the last couple years?
Paing 12:00
Well, I'm not really sure but many of the youths are. Yeah, I think they are leaving the religion because of the monks. I think Buddha is still cool. Like his teachings are still okay. But even then, it's it's an old religion, and I don't think we can relate it anymore in this modern age.
Host 12:26
So what has been your own relationship with with Buddhism or with the Buddhist teachings or the Buddha? As a spiritual guide? However, you want to put the question what's, what's been your personal relationship?
Paing 12:38
I think I used to be a bit religious. Just just a little bit. But I grew out of in my Yeah, in my teenage years, like 7018. I haven't thought sure why. But I think it's because of the monks mostly. I think, yeah, Buddhism actually is pretty okay for me. I mean, it's pretty peaceful. But the Buddhist monks there? Yeah, I think I really don't like them. So these, I think these Buddhist monks are, you know, trying to, they want to keep everyone like, Okay, I'm not sure how to say this. Okay, my take on the religion is, the Buddhist monks are trying to keep this country conservative. And the religion itself, it's conservative to, like Buddhism is conservative, too. I mean, there are some laws and I think, yeah, I think that's the general outtake of my opinion, in Buddhism.
Host 14:04
What do you mean by conservative?
Paing 14:07
By conservative, I mean, they're trying to protect the Burmese culture, by permissive culture, I mean, social norms in everything.
Host 14:17
And when you say, monks are doing this, do you see this as something that senior monks in position of power are behaving in this way in somewhat of a self serving and manipulative way and that there there might be other monks that are living following a different kind of life? Or do you see this as kind of emblematic the Sangha as a whole?
Paing 14:39
I think it's about 70% of the monks want to remain conservative and they want to keep this country in cons of keep this country, how do I say it? For the Burmese and the Buddhists, I think that's The way I would say, because they're afraid, I think they're afraid that Buddhism might die out, you know, in hundreds of years or some something, I think they're afraid that the religion might die and people if people start to get freedom.
Host 15:21
Right, so it sounds like you might be describing more nationalistic than, then then conservative that from what you're saying, nationalistic in the sense of wanting to, to, to have a stronghold and the superiority of Burma, and having Buddhism as a tool of that.
Paing 15:42
And by conservative, I mean, they want to keep the woman and people oppressed, you know, like, there are some laws that woman can do, this woman can do that woman wear this. Yeah. And those are all. I mean, there are many mores like social norms that are conservative about the 30 person, I think they're amongst their living in the forest and everything to live in rural areas to happen to villages and stuff. And some even run in some or even run in like they're running like schools and everything, some of the monks are actually pretty nice, they don't go around,
Host 16:22
right, because in my, in my mind, there were kind of three categories that popped up, as I was trying to listen to you and understand and the three categories I put in kind of three categories that are that are in the non non nationalistic, jingoistic type of monks. But these are three very different types of categories that appear to my mind, one would be like the forest monks, as you mentioned, those that were honestly studying the practice or, or the study of it. And I would actually, and this is where I was kind of trying to get an understanding of the words because I would call them conservative I would call a forest monk who was practicing very seriously of following a conservative path and his practice or someone who was studying very intently, also conservative, but very, I've met many, quote unquote, conservative Burmese Buddhist monks who are in no way nationalistic. And, and then a couple other categories that came to mind as one as being more socially engaged or community centered have, where it's less of a religious function they're doing and more of a kind of, you know, community health, education, hygiene, things like that. And then a third category, which I would say is very much the smallest count on almost one hand, how many monks I've met or heard of the fall in this category, would be progressive, you know, monks that are holding progressive ideals, understanding the world and where they sit, where the monkhood and spirituality fits in that world. So that's why I was curious of those categories that came to my mind where you put how you were looking at 30%.
Paing 18:01
I don't think I've ever met anyone that was progressive.
Host 18:05
But like,
Paing 18:09
I really don't talk to monks that much.
Host 18:13
We're like the white rose movement. Have you heard of that?
Paing 18:16
Not really. Can you tell me more about?
Host 18:18
Yeah, the white rose movement? It was? What was his name? Sherway. Your Nan say it out or someone I'm probably mispronouncing it, but it was a, a monk who I think he was intently in who started a movement of monks and Buddhists presenting white roses to Muslims as Burmese Muslims as a sign of like, solidarity and support and like that.
Paing 18:45
Yeah, that's pretty cool. I think they're also amongst they're pretty progressive in monthly. I was just watching a documentary about, you know, how Muslim community are being oppressed by Mahabharata, in my Mendeley? Yeah, mentally, I think. And there was a monk that was helping the Muslim community, he even went to the marks and stuff. Yeah, I think there are some really progressive monks. Yeah. But I have personally never met.
Host 19:15
Yeah, a lot of these stories just aren't getting out because they're getting drowned on one side by the hate speech of those who are nationalistic. And then the international media picks up on what sells which is hate speech. And so this ends up drowning out or, or, or making those fearful who don't, don't adhere to that. But I think there's definitely there's, there's a number of monks that I've met, and I've heard about that, to some degree or another have these ideals and in some sense, have this kind of basic feeling, but just don't have really a place to don't have an outlet for it to be nurtured or discussed or promoted and somewhat living in fear with with how they felt so
Paing 20:04
yeah, maybe I think there are some ones they're actually great. But most of them are actually nationalistic and hate hateful against other religions. So yeah, I think they're drowning out.
Host 20:19
Right. So getting back to your story, you obviously mentioned that the beginning for audience, so that was your song that was being played. You're a musician. So tell us a bit how you got interested in music and what, what bands you were involved
Paing 20:36
in? Well, I was, I was introduced to piano when I was about seven, because my father plays it. And I love playing and but then, after a few years, piano was starting to get really tense for me, because you have to practice and everything. So I changed it guitar. And I love it. I got my first guitar when I finished my high school in 17 that thing? And yeah, since then, I decided maybe I might become a musician. And then I was I was listening to mostly metal music back then. Then as I grew older, I'm 27. Now my tastes change. And now I'm going to post punk, indie music, or indie rock music. Yeah, I wouldn't listen to anything. I would sometimes listen to Frank Sinatra. Yeah, almost anything.
Host 21:37
What other kinds of singers or bands have been an influence on your, your creative direction?
Paing 21:44
Oh, yeah. My influences would be do you know the band? The National? I don't. Okay, I'm just gonna keep talking about the national I really love the national he's, it's one of the main reasons I've become a musician too, because the national and the Smiths. I mean, I would go in, I would, I think I would say more into the national because the rightand. It is just influenced me in many ways. I try to first I tried to write like them, I tried to write like them, and it's just the way that the focal is Matt Berninger writes, really influenced me. It's just like, how do I say he was just rambling stuff. And those words just come out. And those things don't make any sense. And I love that ridin style.
Host 22:48
So it was that what you carry through in your own in the music that you ended up creating that
Paing 22:54
I love metal inside and nonsense?
Host 22:59
So you're writing nonsense, but would you say that your songs are the overall musical production you're doing? Is there a meaning or a sentiment behind them?
Paing 23:09
Yeah, the the thing I like about my writing style, or med Berlingo, the thing I like about med burning is writing style is that you can interpret it however you like it. I mean, because it has many meanings. It doesn't make any sense. But you can take it as you want. You know, you can take it as however you want it, you can interpret it however you want it. I want my songs to be like that. I might be saying about another thing, but other people might see as another thing. So yeah, I want my songs to be like that.
Host 23:44
And how much do you feel like your music has been part of just a creative process that is cuts across nationality, your time or context? And it's just more of a universal human message. And how much of it would you say is specifically in response to growing up in a dictatorship and your frustration about the politics and lack of freedom and the influences of religion? Where where is your artistic message intended to lie?
Paing 24:19
Well, my writing style is kind of pessimists like very gloomy, and yeah, kind of gloomy and melancholic, I will say, I think is because the country I don't have any direct you know, direct relation to politics or religion or anything, but you can see in my songs that my frustrations depressing that the negativity that I'm feeling so yeah, I think those are related to how the country is Yeah, those are related to the state being in is related to the country. And those situations happen happening in the country.
Host 25:11
Right, if there have been songs or lyrics that have been directly referencing specific things happening and Myanmar,
Paing 25:19
not really, just like I said, I like, right, my writing style is a bit of a rambling and it sort of make no sense if you look at it, but yeah, it's kind of like that. And I try to, I try to avoid like to write relations to things, because I want people to interpret things instead of me telling them what to think. And I want them to think what I'm saying and like hearing then, oh, I think this is about that. I think this is about that. I like hearing that.
Host 25:59
Ray, well, so much of meaning is subjectively interpreted anyway. So that's art as a great medium to be able to create something universal, but that touches people in their own unique way according to their sensibilities and how they view the world. So yeah, in your career as a musician, what you you got into guitar, as you mentioned, learn to play and had these influences. What, what was the first band that you joined?
Paing 26:28
Right after high school, I try a friend spin. I don't really, I can't really play guitar that well, back then. I can't even read taps or anything. But I just tried in, I just play. And I got some friends and I started some pens, like two or three of them. For them, then, you know, we're just working things out. And things went really well. Yeah, only in 2018. I decided to get serious and really look for band members and started doing it.
Host 27:07
And then in 2018, that was side effect that you joined.
Paing 27:11
No, in 2018. I started my own band, the reasonableness. And then I try. Also in 2018. I try the band called the pieces. They're also an indie rock band, I will say retro music. They're really popular in EMR. And also in 2018. Hr excited effect.
Host 27:32
Okay, so I was right with the year. Yeah, you
Paing 27:35
are right with the year but yeah, I guess I was I just want to play as much as possible.
Host 27:43
Run with these different styles that you were playing?
Paing 27:46
Well, it's different, but it's not really that different. And each pen has like, and my play is kind of the same each and they edit their own components into it. So it's different, but it's not that different.
Host 28:01
So in 2018, you were simultaneously playing in these three bands. Were you touring around Myanmar at the time? Well, how was it?
Paing 28:11
Well, we couldn't really tour around Myanmar because most of our music is not very well known in rural areas. So we're center in Yangon. So yeah, we just play gets in Yangon. But I've been to Rakhine and Shan with side effect. Shan State with side effect, I think I've been to I've been to Rakhi with my pen. Also. The reasonable is, yeah, I've been here and there, but we can really turn around Myanmar, because people don't really know us, because we're to what they will call underground bands. But I don't think we're underground bands. Because and then is because side effect is really well known international stage. And yeah, I wouldn't call them underground.
Host 29:06
Right, right. So then in 2019, you did Rock the Vote. Tell us about that.
Paing 29:11
Oh, yeah, it was really a fun thing. Because only me and Taco were in Kazan. And it was really cool. And I was a bit of, you know, I want people to vote and my first time voting was at 18. I was 18. It was 2012 the first Holton I'm not sure. Yeah, I did my first vote in and it was really weird experience because I didn't know anything. And I want people to know what what to say. And mostly the youth to know what to expect more to do and how to vote and stuff. Yeah, if we just talk about that.
Host 29:53
Well, as the Rohingya crisis was breaking out in Myanmar, how closely were you following or aware of what was happening and How's that impacting you?
Paing 30:01
Well, I was aware of what's happening. As you might know, half Rakhine, so it's it's pretty confusing what to, you know, on social media. Everyone is talking about these things. The lobbyists are lobbying about how Rohingya people not from a country, they come from Bangladesh and everything. But I know for a fact that they they've been here for a long time. Because my thing my grandfather would have told me that they will they came from Bangladesh and walk here as farmers since well, since his father's so yeah, I know they've been here a long time. So but I'm not sure what's happened in the social media. There's just hate everywhere. Everybody was saying everything. They're just spewing their ideas on what these Rohingya people
Host 31:03
Why do you think that came about with the kind of force that it did?
Paing 31:09
I think it's just the collective hate that was happening on the social media and in the outside wall. You know, these Rakhine people and Rohingya people were really close and they live in just like villages away and stuff and they will use about, like, I don't know, people getting killed and stuff. I think Rakhi I think there was saying that Rakhine, God rape all the Rohingya sorry, the Rohingya girl got raped by Rakhi. And there was just fake news everywhere. And that's what started, I think. And then the military came in no pass, and it was worse. And people were all it was first, it was just just a bunch of fake news and everything. And we don't really know what's happening in there. We can see some videos like people hitting people, people killing each other with sorts and stuff. But they were taken down after a while. I'm not sure why.
Host 32:23
And as you mentioned, you're half recline. So I assume that your family and awareness of what was happening was probably a bit closer than the average person in Yangon at the time.
Paing 32:36
Yeah, but there was also the rakhi war happening with the military. So things are just really confused. And but yeah, I was. I know what's happened in there and I was following it.
Host 32:49
Right. Definitely the Rakhine Buddhists and AAA there, find themselves between the Rohingya on one side and yeah, from our Buddhists and Tomba. On the other. It's a bit of a precarious place to be. What what's been your, your perspective on seeing where the Rakhine people have tried to fit themselves within this developing conflict.
Paing 33:12
So these things, those Rohingya stuff and everything that will happen in mostly in rural areas, but in Scituate, they will some burning off the marks and stuff. And people from theirs say that a bunch of people came from they don't know where they came from. They just came into the city and started burning down marks and started to spread violence on the streets. I don't really know what happened but there might be some like bad the military was behind it all. I'm not sure there was there was something weird about that how it started.
Host 33:57
Right and your family still is there. was living there throughout this time.
Paing 34:02
Yeah, we were we were all born in Yangon. Myanmar. We don't have much connection to Rakhine, but we know stuff already happened. And yeah. Even my mom was born in Yangon. So yeah, we don't really have ties and subway. But you know, you hear stuff about that in the Rakhine community and you know what's happening?
Host 34:29
Right. Let's take a moment to listen to another one of your songs. Why don't you set it up for us what we're about to listen to.
Paing 34:39
Okay, this not this song is called PMA PMA man, positive mental attitude. I wrote this in COVID period. I think third wave is just a new all look on, like life. I was feeling positive at that time it was before The Coop it was around January 2021 Just right before the coop I was like feeling positive and how we should have a positive outlook on life and then the coop happen and we recorded it back in 2021 January and it was only released in like a month ago Yeah. Because we don't want to release it in the coop and yeah, we just wait for a year then it was released
Host 35:34
alright so let's listen to PMA.
Paing 36:16
No shots or shots? doe?
Host 39:47
And that was PMA that we just heard from our guests piling on. And you mentioned how this this positive mental attitude was a reflection on how you were feeling mean before the coup just when the pandemic was really shutting everything down. So I'm wondering if you can explain why where this optimistic outlook came from when the pandemic was quite a difficult thing for many to deal with. And then how this positive mental attitude was disrupted by the suddenness of the coup exploding in February.
Paing 40:26
I was feeling positive, because the worst is on us now. And I know it's gonna be over soon. And I'm excited for the future. I'm excited about what we're gonna do in the future. Because we've been shutting down for about a year and a half Biden, I think, so. Yeah, I was, I wanted to do so many things. We were excited about our new songs. We're excited about doing gigs. And then the coop just happened. And I was like, shit, because none of us expected. And the military kept saying they're gonna do a coop, but we're like, maybe we'll see. But then they actually did it. And yeah. I'm not sure how to describe how I felt back then. But it was like, feeling hopeless, or like, just just this emptiness, of not knowing what's going to happen in the future.
Host 41:29
And how did that feeling change as the the attempted coup? And the rising resistance movement started to come on? How did this this feeling of emptiness and hopelessness start to change over the course of what's now been almost a year and a half?
Paing 41:45
Well, as you might know, at the star of the coop, everybody was waiting for someone to come up. Because there was, again, there were fake news everywhere. And you might have heard that if we wait for us, if we wait for seven days, the UN is gonna come in and like, redo the coop and stuff. Yeah, I'm not sure what's gonna happen. But they will like a lot of fake news. So we were just waiting, and we're not sure what to do. And then I think, on the fourth day of fifth day, people started to come out and these protests are happening. And yeah, we started going out to and people were like, don't do violence. You're gonna go into the military's plan or something like that. It was just really funny now that I looked at, it was desperate to I was, we were not sure what's happened. And it's and then now, it's a year now and we're really getting used to the coop now. I think we actually feel hopeless and everything. But I think we're starting to deal with it.
Host 43:00
That's really interesting, the contrast of what you just said, you said, you feel hopeless, but you're starting to deal with it. And yet you also feel used to the situation. So can you impact those three things happening simultaneously, as we're now a year into the coup, having been initiated,
Paing 43:18
okay, at first, we weren't able to deal with the coop was happening, we we all thought it's gonna change, like, in a short time, like, oh, in a week is going to be over in a month, it's going to be over in, in six months, it's going to be over. But then this, you know, I always knew that but these coops, we have coops in the history, and nothing ever ends with months, or just a few years of time, this is going to be a long process. And we will, we were all in false hopes and false motivations. We have to be, we have to prepare for the long run. I think I think we're finally dealing with that. Now we have we have that we have to have the stamina for the long run. And back then we can deal with that because we thought it's gonna be overturned in a few months or something.
Host 44:21
So how does one prepare for the long run? What what does it take to have stamina for the long run?
Paing 44:27
I'm not sure. I think it's for now is just mental preparation for now. Well, it's going to be a long fight. It's going to be a long run, we have to be we have to be resilience in everything.
Host 44:41
So it sounds like it's kind of changing the definition of what normal is fitting into a new kind of normal, is that right?
Paing 44:49
Well, I think not really sure how to say it. It's not like we're getting used to the coop or the revolution. It's like, we're gonna be like, Oh yeah, we have a cool It's not like that, but we have to start preparing for the long run.
Host 45:07
And are there any specific ways that you see that people are preparing or that you think they should be preparing?
Paing 45:13
Well, the first thing is to drop these false motivations and these false hopes, like it's gonna end in another month, or it's gonna end in another three months.
Host 45:28
Right? Do you see that happening? Or people letting go of these false hopes?
Paing 45:33
Well, maybe some people I've always been a pessimist so it was easy for me to do that. And I was like, yeah, it's gonna be up to five years I started looking up the steps and stuff and the road to democracy is gonna be a long one because given our history of the country, we have been dealing with these dictators all our lives. And yeah, it's gonna take a few years
Host 46:06
are you confident that we're gonna get there in the end?
Paing 46:11
Well, that's a hard thing to say again, I'm a pessimist so I guess it's the it depends on the people and the government obviously. So yeah but I think the people so but I think the people will win if they are resilience if they don't give into the coop and yeah, if we can keep holding on we might have a chance Well, I'm not one for violence because I don't know but I think you can get how this revolution is going on with the violence and everything I think I can understand that but it's just too much violence in
Host 47:15
the way that the resistance movement has grown in the forms that it's over the course of the last year what are everything has become
Paing 47:22
black or white, there are no gray areas anymore if you're if you're not on this side you're on the other side is it has become like that Not really, because it's I think it's a necessity in a revolution like I'm on revolution is a necessity especially at this time, but we have to look for other ways to we can just rely on on revolution right not really sure.
Host 48:05
Are you are you more of an advocate of a non violent style of resistance diplomacy
Paing 48:11
is a good thing but I don't think we will want to negotiate because that that has learned that moment has long paths we can really negotiate the animal and I'm not sure where it's going to lead but we can rely on each other was revolutionary alone Well, I've been supporting you from the background. I've been in protests for Yeah, I was in protest at the start and then the following crackdowns happen Yeah, I think I was scare. Yeah, I think we're missing as
Host 49:03
far as it's safe to share. How have you been involved with trying to support the democratic health
Paing 49:09
and we have to deal with that
49:12
too? Yeah
Host 49:45
so after you couldn't go on the streets anymore, given the violence that was happening and many people had to had to stop coming out and all these protests that were happening and non violent. Weeks after the coup was initiated? Every I know many people went in many different directions at that point trying to figure out what they can do and like money always play when you were no longer doing this because what really what reformulate what reformulations happened in your mind how did you start and look at where you might
Paing 50:19
find it really hard on our area since we live in Atlanta Yeah, it was we can't they were like military everywhere even now they have the border in what way our compound stuff? Yeah, it's really hard to make a move there. And you just have to stay in the back and help out when you can.
Host 50:53
Privacy. Lengthy, of course, will receive one of the most brutal crackdowns of course of the last year. Were you anywhere in proximity to some of those terrible days that happened last year?
Paing 51:27
Yeah, I was there. First. I was just trying to like help people who were injure, because I have a car. But then my car is useless because people were closing the roads and burning tires on the roads. And so I was stuck at a house. And then those military people came in. We were looking from the roof. And people were shooting with slingshots and swords. They were going after the military calls with assaults and everything. Yeah, many of them were getting shot. And there was a brutal side.
Host 52:04
So you actually witnessed this? Yeah. Yeah.
Paing 52:09
I was not on the street. I was up height on a rooftop. I was lying down and watching.
Host 52:15
Because so you were some kind of safety?
Paing 52:18
Yeah, I would say safety. But there's a water tank up there. And it got shot.
Host 52:24
I see. I see. So that must have been really traumatic to witness that. Yeah. I
Paing 52:29
think that was the time I decided. I don't think I'm gonna go anymore. Because it was not. It was just really terrifying.
Host 52:42
I imagine. Yeah.
Paing 52:44
And there were just gunshots everywhere. And there were some grenades and everything. Yeah. The worst thing was seeing people getting shot, I guess. It's not just the sounds and the gunshots.
Host 53:06
And how did that impact you? How did how did you carry away and move on from bearing witness to loss of life happening right in front of you?
Paing 53:17
Well, I'm not sure. I think I'm still dealing with this stuff. Yeah. I think it scarred me for life. Um, scare? Yeah, I think I'm not really sure what I can say about that.
Host 53:38
I imagine there's memories and feelings of that experience a year ago that still come back to you at different times. Yeah. After,
Paing 53:46
but we couldn't do much anyway, because the call was stuck in the road. So close in everything. And we were stuck there for about five hours, I think. On the roof. Yeah, it was a ghost dump. So we will stay in there so that the soldiers won't come and check. Right, right. Yeah.
Host 54:14
After that terrible day and lengthy on course, you're still living there now how we heard so much about that day in the news, when that crackdown happened, and actually even before it took place, we saw the signs that it was building up to a point where something was going to happen. But I haven't heard so much about LinkedIn in the past year since that event, how have things been progressing in the course of the last year in your your region of Yangon.
Paing 54:42
Well in Yangon there, shootings and bonbons. At first, it was very frequent and is a bit time down these days. I mean, I would hear bobbins and students every every three days or so back then but now it's It's getting less frequent.
Host 55:06
What you mentioned how people have to prepare for the long term, this is going to take a long time you estimated five years yourself. That's a long time not just to maintain, practically living under those conditions and the constant fear and strategizing and operations and everything, but also the mental or emotional component of continuing to be motivated and to have morale to have belief that things are going well. And momentum is in your favor. At this particular moment, what do you feel as the current morale of those you're in contact with in the in the revolution?
Paing 55:50
Well, for now, moral is good, I will say, because I think things are going pretty well, for the armed revolutionary movement. So yeah, I think moral is pretty good. But I was by five years, I meant not just the revolution is about returning to democracy. I mean, we're going to have so many reformations. I guess we have to start from the zero again, we have to start from zero once again.
Host 56:29
Being an artist, yourself and a musician, what do you feel is the role of artists today in the revolution?
Paing 56:38
Well, we can really influence people on the how do I say it? I think it's really important that we keep people updated about okay, it's not that I haven't been art an artist since the coop. I mean, I haven't played gigs for about two years now. I mean, it's just, this is very depressing state. And I think I stopped being an artist since the coop. Yeah.
Host 57:21
So I know, obviously, you're not able to tour anymore with with safety.
Paing 57:26
But not just, we can even do recording or do gigs.
Host 57:33
Why is that?
Paing 57:36
Because I don't want it to get why people in our country are suffering. And on the other side, I knew that my music might help some people. So yeah, it's just very contrast and feelings.
Host 57:58
If you thought of making music with a revolutionary theme, or if you just don't have the real mindset or mental attitude for that at the moment,
Paing 58:08
I don't think I have anything to say about anything right at this moment, because my creative mind has been shut. Yeah, I don't think I can write anything new for now. So I'm focusing on other stuff I'm writing, trying to do a caucus. Yeah. I'm shifting my ideas and trying to be creative in other ways.
Host 58:37
So tell us about the podcast that you're starting.
Paing 58:42
You have already heard started a podcast called The burgers Rambler is it's just things I'm doing it to get my thoughts out somewhere, anywhere, so that people can know what I'm thinking and more share my opinions. Because I'm not really on social media. I think it's just too toxic. I'm not sure. I'm not a big fan of social media. I just use it for my band. I need to I need an outlet for my frustrations and my thoughts. So I started with pockets. And I love talking but I don't really love writing stuff on social media, because everybody is doing and I think people would come and argue and there's just so much hate around it.
Host 59:40
So how has the experience been of launching a new podcast?
Paing 59:44
Well, it's been fun because I don't think anyone was gonna listen. But yeah, there are some people and I'm glad.
Host 59:54
What kind of what kind of feedback are you hearing from it?
Paing 1:00:00
The feedback is yeah, I'm saying the stuff that most of them are not saying. And when you look at Burmese podcasts, both of them are, like sermons of Buddhist monks or something like that most of them are, like, related to Tamar and Buddhism, and running against that.
Host 1:00:22
And of course, it's an English as well.
Paing 1:00:24
Yeah. Because if I do it in Burmese people are gonna be like, you know, attack me and stuff. You're ruining the image of Buddhists. Yeah, if so, yeah. I'm doing it. And so I'm also doing it to let people outside the country. I'm doing it to let them know what's happened in the country. Yeah, I think that's, that's it.
Host 1:01:02
So this is something interesting to explore. Because podcast medium is a new type of way to express oneself. It's, depending on the type of podcast one does, it can be more of a media and information and music style, or it can be more of a creative and artsy and innovative thing, or it can be a mix of the two. But it's, it's this, this, the different medium of how one can express themselves and start to bring up different ideas and bypass the conventional ways of the conventional gatekeepers of being able to put thoughts and ideas out there. What do you see at this moment in Myanmar, and what the site is going through? Of what role and importance Podcasts can potentially have within Myanmar society at this moment?
Paing 1:01:54
I think people has to get off social media and start listening to podcasts or, you know, like useful things, because people only use Facebook here. And that's not informative, or anything. It's just I guess, things are just chaotic in there. And on podcasts, you can actually listen to what someone's saying. And yeah, I think, I don't think many people listen to pockets here in Myanmar. But, yeah, I would encourage them to listen more pockets.
Host 1:02:38
What do you think that podcast can do that other forms of expression other mediums of, of news or creativity cannot do what what's special about the podcast format, in your opinion?
Paing 1:02:51
Not really sure. Because I haven't been on other media sharing my opinions. I think it's really cool. Just because people can come and attack you or write negative things about it, about your ideas. Like when you put something on Facebook, many random people are gonna just come in and write a bunch of stuff. They're gonna swear you just a bunch of negativity, and they're not even gonna listen to what what you're saying. They're gonna take it however you want it for pockets, they actually have to listen to get what you're saying.
Host 1:03:36
That's an interesting observation. I've spoken to other two brands podcasters I include those Burmese citizens of different backgrounds that are doing podcasts in the country as well as foreigners like myself that are doing a podcast on me and more topics, this kind of developing an ecosystem and have had conversations about what what would it take to have this industry in this kind of ecosystem start to take off and Myanmar so we can have a diversity of content and opinions and discussion and formats and everything else? What do you think it would take to have this take off as a creative medium and Myanmar?
Paing 1:04:20
Think Okay, first of all people have to get off from Facebook. At first I thought the military is gonna ban Facebook. I mean, they technically banned it. We just were just using it with VPNs and stuff. So I wanted to try new mediums and I was trying to get information and what other people are thinking,
Host 1:04:49
what what's your well, actually, it's not so much the community I was I was looking at in terms of other podcasters it was more of the audience more the context. I mean, you're you're speaking Now to people that are presumably listening and thinking about what you say so, you know, it's looking at what does it take for this thing to really grow and become something that matters?
Paing 1:05:12
Yeah, that's what I can think of being, I'm not really sure why I can more I can do to attract audience. Because pocket itself doesn't get a lot of audience. And that's what I like about it. And only a few are listening to it, and those few are willing to listen to you. And instead of just having loads of people not listening, rather than I would happily take some people listening to what I'm saying. I don't think when pockets is gonna grow really big and Myanmar. I don't see it happening as of now.
Host 1:06:01
And for your own podcast platform, what kinds of topics or messages are you trying to get out there?
Paing 1:06:09
I'm trying to put messages like how religion related to religion and politics, I guess, but I'm not an expert in any of those. So do get a raw perspective of citizen living in Myanmar and how I'm feeling just my opinions about it
Host 1:06:40
Well, let's take another break and listen to another song that you did another creative medium before podcasting before the coup set us up for what we're gonna listen to this time.
Paing 1:06:54
Okay, we're gonna listen brand new troubles it was written in 2018 and it was just we were having loads of new problems back then with everything going on. So yeah, it was just troubles coming in from every direction Yeah, it was just it was also about my depression which I've I'm still dealing with my pessimistic views on life yeah
Host 1:07:33
okay let's listen to brand new troubles
Paing 1:07:48
troubles you troubles you're gonna blow you off for treason the water the water troubles you day second thing saying You? Good
Host 1:11:21
All right, so we just listened to your song brand new troubles and you referenced how this was written in light of the troubles that were coming in both internally and externally which are both worthy of a look first the external troubles 2018 Being a time that you saw a lot of dangers and difficulties in your country and society at the time. What What were those that that you saw coming that inspired the song?
Paing 1:11:53
I think it was just general hate and I think it was the time the ICJ hearing what's happening? I'm not sure. But they were like, everything was, you know, clue Minh, and I can sense that it's troubling. And we're gonna have brand new troubles. How I want to leave my heavy head in the water and drown on myself. It's just about that.
Host 1:12:23
And you referenced that it was also coming internally from a state of depression that must be difficult to deal with and in, in Myanmar society, how? How possible is it to be open and, and vulnerable and seek treatment for something like mental health issues like depression?
Paing 1:12:44
I don't think we don't have a lot of treatments available here. If you go to a clinic, they're gonna assume you're always I say, you're, you're mentally disabled or something like that. People don't usually go to clinics for mental disorders. I was dealing with myself, and I think I did pretty well. Because I was trying to write down everything, um, was filling in. Yeah, it was a really hard time. I'm not sure why but it was. I'm trying to remember. Sure, I was just first starting out as a musician, and things haven't been working out as much as I have hoped for. Although I started a band in 2018. And I got record deals and stuff and try three events in 2018. Us, I still was, you know, unsatisfied, and everything.
Host 1:13:55
Human Condition?
Paing 1:13:57
Yeah. I'm not sure why. But you know, it's really hard for me because the social norms are like, you have to get a job, you can become a musician stuff, and I have to deal with that. And since there are no clinics or doctors fillable here, I have to deal with it myself. I have to take it in. I have to write it out. I have to accept it that I'm becoming a musician.
Host 1:14:23
Did you ever have any background or interest in meditation?
Paing 1:14:27
Well, not really. I've never tried meditate. I've I think I've tried meditation. I even went to a Buddhist meditation camp. When I was like, 16 Yeah. But it was just all fun. And I ended up getting allergies because it was in the middle of nowhere and I ended up getting allergies and and not too much. Yeah.
Host 1:14:56
Let's see. Right. And then of course, the coup happened, I will COVID happened. And then the coup of these, both of these events can trigger people with no history of mental difficulties of responding with in all kinds of ways, given how difficult these two sets of, of crises were. You had depression before the coup and before COVID. So once these two things hit, how did that affect your condition?
Paing 1:15:29
I think I did quite well with COVID. But the coop is, it's different. COVID is pandemic and I was feeling I'm experiencing something that human race only get to experience in every 100 years or so. So I was like, Yeah, I'm experiencing this. And not excited. But I'm like, this is going to be history and experience this, I have to I guess I was a bit excited about the pandemic.
Host 1:16:08
But not so excited about the coup.
Paing 1:16:11
But not after like, third wave happened, and people started dying. And I was like, shit. I will get like, stress over baby, I can't breathe. And we're moving. I have COVID Because I was going to hospitals every week in week out because my father was in really bad condition back then. Yeah. And the coop, the coop, the same thing. I was like, Well, not everybody experienced a coop was like my uncle has experienced a coop, my dad and my mother have experienced that group. I guess it's my time. And I was like, I'm gonna experience it. And I'm gonna come up better from this experience.
Host 1:16:58
From have you?
Paing 1:17:01
I'm not sure I'm still processing this. I'm sure. After after this, I might be able to tell what was happening. And yeah, I might. I don't know, I might come up worse, or I might come up better.
Host 1:17:17
Where do you see the movement at at this moment a year into the coup and looking ahead of how things are going and where we're going next? How do you look at this at this current moment that we're in?
Paing 1:17:33
Well, right now, again, I'm a pessimist. So I think everything that can go wrong will go wrong. So yeah, the worst thing that could happen is the military winning. And I have imagined that. Yeah, it could happen. But we might also win. It's a slim chance. But yeah, I think we can do it. And things are looking pretty decent right now, I guess.
Host 1:18:03
Do you see a world where the military can win, I mean, just given the force of resistance against them. And it's as we've seen here, and in Ukraine as well, it's being able to, to win a certain battle or hold a certain area is very different from being able to administer it and and hold on to it for an extended period of time. And it seems to me that much of the Burmese people have made a pretty profound statement that they are not going to go back to the way things were before that they are not going to submit. So do you that being said, I don't know if you share those same opinions. But do you see a pathway where the military cannot just win, but can win and rule?
Paing 1:18:53
I think I can imagine it. Because it has happened over the years like my mom in 88. And my uncle back he was shot dead. And in 61 I think everybody has experienced a coupe. And they will tell him how back then it was there were movements like this too. And yeah, unfortunately, we didn't win. And Ukrainian Newmar is kind of different. I guess Ukraine is getting a lot of attention from the Western countries, and they get support of weapons and everything. quite jealous of that. So yeah, hear that? Yeah, I mean, I know we're just a country in nowhere, probably just a small one. Yeah, but, I mean, we need help too. And I guess I'm not sure how the how Europeans and Europe countries and us see us. Like, it's just a country ruined by history by dictatorships over and over again. So, and maybe they see it as a civil war, but it's not actually a civil war, I guess. Right, yeah.
Host 1:20:29
Are there things that make you hopeful and seeing how this is playing out?
Paing 1:20:34
Yeah, sometimes I'm hopeful when I hear stuff like, somebody's going to help, or because we cannot deal this deal with this alone. The ASEAN is not with us. Obviously, they're talking to the military junta, they're given chances to military Hunter. And well, all the neighboring countries are kind of siding with the military hunters. So yeah, it's sometimes helpful. Like, we're getting a lot of help from us. And yeah, that's kind of cool. But there are things like we can get the money out from US banks, the N ug government.
Host 1:21:22
Right, speaking of the N ug, what's been your evaluation of how they've been leading?
Paing 1:21:30
Again, I'm a pessimist. And sure. I tell many people share my view, because people have end up here. I mean, at first, I was really hopeful, because we're forming of interim government and everything. I was like, Yes, we're gonna do shit. We're gonna start changing things we're going to be, but then, you know, a year is a very long time. I mean, at first, when you human made a statement, I was like, yes, you made a statement, if we're going to be free soon, but then you just kept making these statements. There's a joke in the country that saying they're closing doors, they're opening doors, and nothing's happened. And so yeah, energy. I'm still kind of hopeful for them, because they're a government. And, yeah, maybe they'll do something. Because right now, from what I see, people are leading them instead of MDTs leading the people. Were telling them what to do do that, do that do that. And people are shouting at them. And they're doing they're just given that if even at the start, we will like former people will like former governments, former government. And yeah, I think they have to lead instead of just following people
Host 1:22:55
lead, like how, like, what would be an example of leading that they're not doing that? I'm
Paing 1:22:59
not sure. That's why I'm asking them to lead. Because, again, I'm not I wasn't really into politics before this. Like, I always tried to keep things because people have opinions. Right. And I myself have pretty some people will say, extreme or negative opinions, so I can understand other people's opinions. And so yeah, I thought politics, maybe not my cake.
Host 1:23:35
Right, looking ahead to what it will take for the democratic revolution to win. Do you have any final thoughts on what what needs to happen from from anyone from any side that's not happening now that you think could bring a faster victory?
Paing 1:23:54
I think having more funds and support of weapons might help. Because from what I know, we have the web, we have the manpower, but we don't have weapons. But again, we can't rely on on revolutionary alone, we have to look at other sides to it like diplomacy. We have to start getting Ossian on our side, instead of just a military junta. And they're like powerful countries surrounding us, like India and China. China is actually very important. So yeah, I think we have to start making instead of just making statements maybe you can help to
Host 1:24:44
write about on a more local level, just in your neighborhood of length. How are how are you seeing the community on a day to day basis? How are things going there?
Paing 1:24:54
Okay, I'm actually disappointed what's happened in Yangon because As things are getting really stable around here. I mean, if you go Oh, at night, the coffee just reduced to 12am. From 4am 12pm to 4am. Back then it was 10pm. And now people are having more fun, they're going to bars and the clubs open all night. And when you just go out, you see, people are enjoying in bars and restaurants and everything. And it kind of disappoints me.
Host 1:25:38
So, you think that's a sign that people are losing their revolutionary spirits and are just settling into a military rule?
Paing 1:25:47
I think the revolutionary spirit has lowered down since many of us have move on to becomes just supporters instead of just revolutionaries. Because back when the coop was happened, and everyone was an activist, everyone was involved with the revolution, where we were in protest and everything, but now we were back as supporter rules. And that's not actually a good sign. And now people are getting used to the military route. And I mean, people haven't been able to have fun for about two and a half years, I guess. So they're starting to get, you know, like a bit let loose or a little bit of fun isn't going to harm anyone. I need to let loose or something like that. So yeah, the bars are pack, the clubs. A pack is a pretty disappointing sight to see.
Host 1:26:53
How about the PDFs? What's your, what's your thought on the rise of the people's Defense Force, the resistance and defensive units?
Paing 1:27:02
Well, I think again, I said on revolutionary movement is necessary is necessary for this revolution. But again, I don't want people to just rely on on revolution.
1:27:21
Right, right. Understood.
Paing 1:27:25
Because, okay, I'm gonna say, How do I say that? Because, I mean, we can kill all of them. Right? Okay, we I mean, you can kill everyone that oppose any new idea. You can kill everyone that are military supporters. They're gonna they're always going to be opposing ideas to you, and you just can kill them. Right now, the revolution. They're just some injustice starting to come in. You might have heard of Paul, Tammany a monk was in charge of a poor PDF force. Yes. He just killed 20 people in a village. Yeah, so I think the violence is going to happen more and more innocent people are going to be involved in it. So yeah, again, I will say this, you can kill everyone that is opposing to ideas. They're also civilians and citizens. Just because they're a military supporter, you have to kill them as long as they're not harmful to society and people. Yeah, I mean, I'll just say we can kill them. All.
Host 1:29:05
Right. Right. It's certainly a hard situation now.
Paing 1:29:09
Yeah, because everything is becoming black and white. Again, like I said, if you're not on the side, you're on that side.
Host 1:29:20
And hard to know how to approach a dialogue with the tomahawk at the moment as well.
Paing 1:29:26
Yeah, because everybody is like, I'm not sure everyone is at their limit. They're ready to explode. And you put cones into their heads and Yeah. These things are bound to happen I guess. can say no, all these things because I'm not against the revolution or siding with the military. It's just that We need to see some things from different perspective, like a middle ground. I'm not saying about everything, just some things when human lives are involved, you have to see things on a human level instead of just using guns. Yeah, I guess that's what I would say about that. Revolution wise, I think we're doing well. Yeah, I think we're doing well.
Host 1:30:34
Thanks for these comments. Thanks for checking in. I know it's middle of the night there and Yangon now. So thanks for staying up with us. And as we finish this interview will be taken away with fourth and final one of your songs for the outro. So setup, what we're about to listen to is this interview comes to a close.
Paing 1:30:53
Okay, the last one is called away is the same meaning in English and then you're more so named away. And it's just meaning I want to run away from this. All this well of society and how these all these changes, and all these troubles and everything. And all these How do I say all these traps and everything I just want to is about wanting to run away from all this. I mean, you could probably get how where I'm standing from the song. Like I'm not against violence, but I'm actually against violence when when is injustice? I guess
Host 1:31:45
that's very evocative. I imagine there's a lot of people that want to run away now as well. With that are trapped in a really terrible ongoing situation. And we're, our platform is doing all we can.
Paing 1:32:00
Yeah, but that song was written in 2020. Yeah,
Host 1:32:07
but maybe relevant now.
Paing 1:32:10
Yeah, it's everything that's coming to relevant now. Like brand new troubles and everything. Were you troubles every day? And yeah, I mean, we're gonna have more of them. Like, we're gonna have hardship over the years. I mean, why hasn't spread to the cities? I think it's gonna come soon. And yeah, we have to be prepared for it.
Host 1:32:38
Well, let's listen to away and thank you so much for taking the time to join us.
Paing 1:32:43
Yeah, I think I may have made it depressed to
Host 1:32:49
just being real. That's all these talks are. They're just being real. That's whatever real is. That's the point of them.
Paing 1:32:56
I'm pessimists. But yeah, I mean, everything that can go wrong will go wrong. So yeah, hold on people.
Host 1:33:02
Well, thanks for being real with us.
Paing 1:33:05
Yeah, thank you for inviting me to the pockets to. Shame issue social Susan.
Host 1:34:22
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