Transcript: Episode #137: Mission of Burma
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Jiri Sitler, which was released on December 9, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
00:00
The European Union plans missions in Myanmar also known as Burma. Last week, the Czech Republic also sent an official delegation to Burma led by Deputy Foreign Minister Gerry Sisler, who met with the country's officials and pro democracy associates of Johnson Sookie.
Host 00:27
We all know how serious and dreadful the current situation is in Myanmar. For those of us outside the country, it can be difficult to know how to help. Of course, there are significant ongoing needs across all segments of Burmese society. For those who are able to get financially any donation given to our nonprofit mission better Burma will immediately be placed towards helping those being impacted by the coup. Just go to insight myanmar.org/donation to contribute today or stay tuned to the end of the episode to hear more options. Thank you for your consideration and now let's get into the interview that follows.
01:13
House for sibling follows siblings into Thorn forest girl full stick of incense tip a glow 37 knots await atop Mount Popa volcanic relics, sister brother, blue throated Barbets lightning clue nest lands on soft earth entwined by distant Blaze candle with floating in bowl of oil this poem is from storage unit for the spirit house on AMI Dawn by machine.
Host 02:43
Day way that I got a yeah, maybe we'll do that for this episode of Inside Myanmar podcast, we're really privileged to be joined by Yuri Sittler. From the Czech Republic. He is the former Czech ambassador to Myanmar as well as a number of other diplomatic posts that he's held, which we'll get into as well as his involvement and in Myanmar over the past 2030 years. So there's a lot to tell and share and learn from there. So your thanks so much for taking the time to join us and talk about Myanmar here.
Jiri Sitler 03:44
Thank you for having me.
Host 03:46
Yeah. So let's get first to a little bit about who you are and where you come from and your diplomatic career. Before we get into Myanmar, can you can you tell the listeners a bit about yourself in your background?
Jiri Sitler 04:03
Before 1989 Also, before the Velvet Revolution, I was never thinking about like actually joining the government working for the government because I couldn't imagine working for the communist government. So I studied history and I wanted to be a historian dealing with like, ancient or medieval history if so, in order not to be I'd say in order not to be dealing with any let's say issues where ideology play the main role. So after 1989 I was like, really happy because of the change development evolutions meant that finally, like our fate It's the fate of the Czech citizens were in our own hands. So when I first I wanted to study abroad a little bit, so I went to Germany and to Italy and I studied there. And when I came back 1992 To the end of 1992, beginning of 1993, I got the offer from the office of president Vasavada to join the President's team at the time. They were searching for people with some, like international experience and spoke some languages, but at the same time who are not compromised by like, being a member of the Communist Party or working with the former regime. So I actually, because I've never considered actually working for the government before. So I hesitated, but then I decided, okay, we'll try it for a couple of months. And here I am after 30 years.
Host 06:07
Yeah, great. Thanks for that. Thanks for sharing a bit about your background and your career, how you got involved in, in the work you're doing. Take us now through some of the posts that you held. And once you got into the Foreign Service and Czech Republic, what positions you held and what kind of work you did outside of Myanmar before we get to the topic of that country.
Jiri Sitler 06:30
So far, from 1993 to 1997, I was on the team of President Howell and I was dealing with press issues, and then the foreign policy issues and already had the time, I was kind of my time or my responsibilities, that would be a bit like split between central Europe and neighboring countries and Asia. I studied just for a few months, but I studied Thai at the School of Oriental and African Studies. So in the eyes of my colleagues in the presidential office, it made me an Asia expert, which I didn't feel like but then I kind of tried to do my best. And after 1998, when I switched to the Foreign Ministry from from the presidential office, I was mainly my main task in the foreign ministry was negotiating compensation for the second world war with Germany. So that was quite a quite a task. I was relatively young and my counterpart in Germany was like an elder statesman from Minister of Finance, Count lambsdorff. So it was very challenging negotiations for me to have such an experience, counterpart, but in the end, we achieved compensation for about 80,000 of our citizens. And after that, I was rather, it was really several years I spent with this issue. And then I was actually offered ambassadorship as a kind of reward a little bit in Bangkok. So my, let's say, my Asian expertise came to life again. And from Bangkok. I was accredited also to Burma, Myanmar, to Cambodia and to Laos. So, and since President Hardwell was in office at the time, in the year 2001, when I got appointed, he was very much interested in all things. Bourbon, so a significant part of my job from bancos was the support to the Burmese democratic forces, both in Yangon Gordon, but also in the ethnic areas. And after that, after coming back from Asia, I was director for Asia for some time in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I was I continued to to deal with also Burma related issues, but then I became ambassador to Romania, later to Sweden, and now Hyman Vietnamese ambassador to Austria. Wonderful, kind of never, never interrupted. I never cease to have contacts with my friends in Burma, which exiles in Thailand And I've visited the region rather frequently. And not not not in the last two or three years, though, but that was mainly because of the pandemic because of the parallax reactions.
Host 10:15
And thank you for that. That's, that's wonderful. It's a wonderful background. And I think I want to go a bit deeper into what you bring up as this relationship between specifically the affection and concern that have all had to Burma. I mean, this is not something that these cultures, these people, these histories, they're so different. So it's not an obvious connection that one would make that a a Czech president coming out of successive totalitarian regimes of the first the Nazis and then the Soviets, that he would feel such affection towards Burma. And this led to this close relationship which continues today of the Czech Republic in Burma, that the the relationship they've shared with respect to democracy movements, can you share a bit about his relationship with Burma and how that developed in the countries forming a stronger relationship that continues through today,
Jiri Sitler 11:14
when he was elected president at the end of the year 1989. At that time, he was like one of the his name was very often mentioned as a possible next Nobel Peace Prize, laureate. However, in his opinion, he was, I mean, in his view, the Velvet Revolution was successful. Czechoslovak Czechoslovakia at the time later Czech Republic was kind of transforming itself into a democratic country, anchored in the, in the West, and also, later with NATO membership, internationally secure. And his idea at the time was that because the Czech dissidents they were helped in 1970s 1980s, by others, are supported by international NGOs, by a by courageous foreign politicians like Dutch politicians, trans politicians. So his idea was now when we actually established democracy in our country, we should actually do the same to others. So human rights promotion was one of the like, anchors, or one of one of the main guidelines for our foreign policy, which at the time designed, and in 1991 of vasanas collaborators, families, aides, Savitsky happened to travel to Japan, where he met a group of Burmese exiles who ask actually him for Hubble support for some switches Nobel Peace Prize nomination. And around the same time, however, was contacted by switches, husband part of Aries, who asked for the same. So he decided to formally nominate hair, he established contacts with a group of us congressmen and with the committee of Professor Finnis. At the time, the access requirements were also campaigning for for the Nobel Peace Prize for Aung San su chi, they joined forces and they finally succeeded. So, this was like the beginning of the of the relationship, which then later continued with actually very numerous others initiatives to assist Aung San su chi and there was like an appeal of the international fan club or he organized the the letter of the of the Nobel laureates for literature, and then he commissioned the joint report with Desmond Tutu about the situation in Burma, etc, etc. I mean, he remained involved ever since 1990s until the end of his presidency 2003 But even beyond, until his death, actually in 2011, he remained deeply into I spit in all things Burma and the because most of the time on Sanssouci was actually either in prison or under house arrest. Arsenal meeting was not possible but he would yes a gesture invited her to an annual event. He was organizing in the Czech Republic which was the forum 2000 conference where he so he would every year invite her as a speaker there of course it wasn't possible for her to come but it was like a gesture and they managed somehow to exchange some letters and there was actually one phone call between them so they never met by they exchanged letters and they managed just one single time to conform
Host 15:57
right and there's also this beautiful story about the rose which I read that the the role that this rose has between the relationship I wonder if you can tell that story.
Jiri Sitler 16:08
Oh, yeah, this was like one the saw a picture of if I'm Sansa Gina with this signature flower in her hair. He thought it was a house but who knows what it was? What kind of flower it was, but first of all thought it was Charles was so he once wrote an article I think it was what the Washington Post that once he would like to hand over to her robes when she's free and you can finally meet her but as I mentioned, it wasn't actually possible because the meeting didn't happen on the on the phone conversation exchange of letters. But when we traveled with with Minister Karim schwarzenbach at the time foreign minister of the Czech Republic when we traveled to Burma, when when I'm Sookie Johnson Sookie was a state councilor at the time we decided somehow that we have to fulfill ourselves house leash so we actually were safe flowers that were like put to our survivors coffin when he died by citizens by the people. And a check artists somehow was very famous artists book ship again, kind of from this flower and is created kind of glass object in which these these flower was embedded. So it could like, survive for years a month, months and years like that. So we actually gave this objective that power to Amazon Sookie during during our visit to to new pedo. And I can't remember when it was I think 2013 I remember correctly. Yeah, I think that that that was the year.
Host 18:20
Yeah, that's quite a story. So the the deathbed flowers that are given to hovel on his
Jiri Sitler 18:27
sorry, 2012, July 2012.
Host 18:30
I see. I see. Right, right. So that's quite a story. These are the deathbed flowers that are given to hovel, his coffin, and one of them is then encased in presented in person to Aung San su chi to fulfill a beyond the gift that's beyond the grave. In your own words, in
Jiri Sitler 18:48
this moment, I would make a modest remark that it was my idea.
Host 18:53
Okay, right, right. And so this, this was able to this this long held aspiration of hovel to deliver a rose to Aung San su chi was fulfilled in person after his death. That's quite a remarkable and dramatic story. And it also leads to wondering about Aung San su cheese trajectory. And I think you're a great person to ask about this, because you were you came of age during the Velvet Revolution at the same time as the ADA revolution in Burma, same year really, and, and you were very close to both of these leading Democratic figures, Aung San su chi, as well as hovel, and involved in all kinds of other activities pertaining to democracies and overcoming tyranny. And, of course, when hobble died in 2010, this was before Aung San su chi had taken any power and very famously, we don't need to go too much into rehashing history. Most of our listeners know this when Aung San su chi actually took power in 2015 with the NLD her actions in her Words were underwhelming for many that had had higher hopes for her and wished her to be a an inclusive and democratic icon. The reasons why she might not have lived up to that there are many different interpretations for that. But I wonder, I would like to hear yours. And I'd also not just yours, but I, someone who is so close to Hubble, and who have all did not see her trajectory beyond 2010. And so this kind of pristine Nobel Prize winning democracy icon, this was the image that he still have of her. And so I wonder, your thoughts as well, if Hava was to see what would happen in the ensuing 10 years? What how that might shift his thoughts or his actions or engagement as well as your thoughts with, with what became of her and her decisions as she became a leader.
Jiri Sitler 20:53
I don't dare to like, kind of speculate what 200 was on how I would have would have thought but it is true that until his death in 2011, he kind of didn't have a reason to change his image. And I would dare to speculate that in like many topics, are many criticism among some city or state exposed to that he would have maybe understood how he himself since 1990, until 2003, so for 13 years, he was a practicing politician. So he knew that you have to make compromises and you have somehow to navigate the political landscape and respect political realities. And I think the former Czech dissidents, collaborators of outside help. Understanding for this, there was, of course, a big debate around the Rohingya issue that was, I think, the and about her relationship to ethnic minorities in general. So, regardless, specifically regarding Rohingya, there was quite a criticism by the Czech press or in the Czech Republic, also by some former dissident, but it was also done with a certain understanding for her situation that although she was criticized for not spoken out, you know, against the persecution of Rohingya at the same time, I think that, that our Czech critics knew that it's mainly the military who has to be blamed for the, for the situation in the Rakhine State. So I think in some media, I spent some time in Sweden as ambassador for four years. So I don't think that, that for instance, Swedish press and Swedish critics didn't differentiate that clear rate. So there was like, they they, I mean, the criticism there was fighting, they thought somehow, was the instigator maybe of the situation. While while we know that the situation Myanmar, with the division of power between military and NLD was very complex, right, I
Host 24:06
think and I think that it's certainly true. Looking at whenever Myanmar is analyzed in the outside world there, the first victim is always lack of nuance. There's always these broad brushstrokes of trying to understand the country and the people and the nuance. And the detail of understanding the context are often the first things that are lost. sticking on that priority of, of nuance nuanced and of understanding things in more detail. I want to return to these two democratic revolutions happening at the same time in 1988, the Velvet Revolution in Czech, which was successful and the ADA revolution in Burma, which I would say was not yet successful. I have many people I've spoken to are careful not to call it a failure that it was an important building block for where we are now but it certainly was not success. At that time, I was really struck by reading my Thedas book I'm sure you're familiar with, with my theta, prisoner of conscience, the book, book's title. And she was also a guest on this podcast. And she, as she's writing her experiences from 1988, on to like the mid 90s or so is when it leaves off. She's referencing not just what's happening in Burma, but what's happening around the world with, especially the Soviet Union in the fall of communism and Czech Republic is referenced. And it was very interesting to read that and get this feeling that as, as they're seeking their own democratic aspirations, and Myanmar, they are aware and excited about these developments around the world, there seems to be this surge of momentum happening in in freedom starting to open up and the sense of why not here. Of course, that was not yet successful. And so as someone who as mentioned before, as we just referenced, someone as yourself, who arose from the Velvet Revolution, and benefited from that happening to your society, and then later became very involved intrinsically involved in Myanmar and developing a very detailed understanding of the ADA revolution, working with many of the activists from there, how would you compare and contrast these two revolutions that happen at the same time in very different places?
Jiri Sitler 26:24
I think that checks were, in a way lucky because the, like international environment was kind of more friendly to them at the time, because the regime in what was then Czechoslovakia, it was an engine installed by the Soviet invasion in 1968. and the Soviet Union at the time reforming itself with Gorbachev and ultimately also kind of losing its grip on going the former satellites in Central and Eastern Europe, it was actually not that difficult to get rid of the communist regime, because it was really just the extended hand of the Soviet Union, in account in our country. So the changes in the Soviet Union, we could do that. It was a little bit different in in Burma, in Myanmar, the, of course, the military regime was kind of homegrown. So it was much more difficult to get rid of it. So in that sense, I don't think that checks were somehow to check didn't checks didn't succeed because they were better. They were just more lucky. And, but there was always like, from from the park, I'm Sam, Sophie, for instance, I remember she in one of her essays, she wrote that she felt a particular affinity for the writings of Czech dissidents if you're out essay checks on us, where she actually compared the movements in both countries and she definitely follow the situation in the in Czechoslovakia and the the victory of the Civic forum led by lots of Holland Yeah. Me You know, when I was ambassador accredited, also to Myanmar, I present my credentials at the time to the leader of the junta Tamsui and I kind of a because also, in his time, the military, they were they were always talking about like that they are they were planning elections and reforms, they never happened actually at the time, but they was talking about it. So I was during the meeting, I kind of affects our experience from the transformation from the totalitarian regime to democracy and if they are interested in our in kind of ask if they were interested in our experience, but I never got any answer to that. They they just I mean, the offer and whatever I said about the need to respect human rights and about transformation of the society towards democracy. They just kind of ignore it. Northen, they changed the topic. So. So this part of the Burmese society was not interested in our experience as opposed to the NLD.
Host 30:12
Right, right. So as ambassador to Myanmar during that period in the early 2000s, you came in contact with many members of the ruling regime, including as you reference, Dan sway who was the
Jiri Sitler 30:25
dungeon, it was just the one meeting because he didn't want to meet foreign dignitaries. Very often, it was just the one occasion when I presented my credentials.
Host 30:35
Was there anything that stands out about him personally, I'm just wondering if you just from a human sense of sharing a room with him, if there's something that you recall, or remember from that interaction?
Jiri Sitler 30:46
I'll remember that at that time, you know, like, everybody was speculating, and maybe he's like, What are the sacred, maybe he's not like, never, like, hope. You might not be up to his task. So, but he was quite lively and very healthy. So that was like, I thought, okay, like, there was no solution, in the sense that there'll be some natural, let's say, physical exchange of the leadership in a natural way. And his kind of disinterest in actually discussing clearly political issues. The, the, the line he had was like, we was talking about how Bangkok or Singapore, fantastic cities with the skyscrapers, and they would like to have something like that in Burma tube. And I remember that the foreign minister, not not not unsure. He said something along the lines that in 1968, the dead time the Burmese regime condemned the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia. So they are confident that checks would now condemn any, like, attempts of foreign interference in Burma. So that was like the the line they were like, I mean, whatever I said this was lime. And there was actually not much interest in, in. In our experience, from transition to democracy,
Host 32:38
you've you've been a diplomat and half a dozen different countries, how was your experience as a diplomat and Myanmar, different from being an ambassador and the other countries you were in?
Jiri Sitler 32:50
I talk about, let's say, Asian countries, because from Bangkok, I was accredited to Burma, but also to Cambodia and Laos. So in Burma, it was really the we be supported the democratic opposition, we helped to the families of political prisoners, we supported also the ethnic groups in the border regions. And it made us of course, not very popular in the eyes of the of the regime, and even occasionally, in the Burmese press, like campaigns, you know, against the Czech Republic, or what they what they presented as US interfering into their internal affairs. At the same time, there was some kind of activities they allow to know like, I don't know, we've been provided some training to Burmese filmmakers. And to the day it was somehow permitted, we were allowed to do that there were some activities that were allowed. Compared to that, for instance, in in Laos, each and every activity of the embassy when required, official permission, even a simple I don't know, like, viewing of some old film or whatever, everything requires permission. And there was actually no democratic opposition to speak of they were all in exile. So our activities in Laos were very much limited in Cambodia. The focus was on cultural exchange, because we didn't have big economic interest there. But there was like always, hundreds and 1000s of Cambodians studied in the Czech Republic we were we used to be in the past, but anymore at the second biggest donor or provider of the development assistance to Cambodia after France. So there was very big numbers of Cambodians who studied in the Czech Republic, including the king. So we focused on like, developing contacts in them organizing cultural events, etc, etc. So, Thailand, it was very much about our economic relations. So it was like different focus in different countries. But in Burma, I would say there was occasionally even like a direct conflict with the with the authorities, their personnel in the case Osmar.
Host 35:55
How did that direct conflict play out?
Jiri Sitler 35:58
All mainly, it was like mainly in the kind of this seeing the official press in Burma, for instance, there was even one once a campaign against Assad Harwell and Desmond Tutu when I mentioned the report they commissioned and they, the result was that they suggested that the Security Council, the United Nations deals with the vermin issue, which actually happened later. So they really dislike this initiative. They started the campaign against Barcelona, and the Czech Republic in the Burmese press, and quite interestingly, oh, and they also initiated like a letter campaign to our Embassy in Bangkok, where, like, Burmese students allegedly wrote us letters where they criticize the Czech attitude on our letters from around the country, were exactly the same. So that was obviously, like, scared. But then we received a couple of letters, like authentic letters by Burmese students, were they out, please ignore this campaign there, we have to do it. They're like telling us to do that, you know, the universities. And so I know that you receive these suckers these days, but we actually happy about this report, please continue your work. And we are grateful for your support. So this was like, authentic, authentic, we received. So it's very, very encouraging. And I hope nobody else wrote those letters to us, because, of course, they're authors ended up with I don't know if in prison, but definitely they would have trouble if somebody knew what they were writing to us.
Host 38:14
So given that the check mission was basically facing what you described as open hostility and conflict, how were you able to operate in Burma in such a way where you were still able to associate and even support not only the democratic actors and the dissidents and the political prisoners, but also the ethnic minorities who were pushing for human rights in their territories? How were you able to operate in such a way that supported their democratic movement and human rights when you were facing such open forms of diplomatic hostility?
Jiri Sitler 38:52
As I mentioned, despite of that some of our activities, which were not explicitly political are still permitted. Also, in we worked also in partnership with missions at the time who actually resided in Yangon. I don't know if the French Institute or however, with the bridge with the with the Americans with other missions in general, and regarding the assistance of political prisoners or other their families, we just worked with existing networks like the association to assist political prisoners, I mean, within the country and with ethnic groups, we work directly with the ethnic groups in the border regions. So yeah, I mean, there were there was a lot of channels or through the NLD which Somehow was able, in a limited way to operate under Tantra. So we had a lot of, say, inofficial partners.
Host 40:15
Right? And what stands out and all these many multifaceted interactions you had with, with Democratic activists and ethnic minorities, what what stands out in your interactions with members of that community and how they were pursuing these goals?
Jiri Sitler 40:31
They were at Deakin. It was incredibly, you know, like, they were like risking their lives. decades in prison, but they still were willing to do it. It was it was really admirable. Yeah. I mean, the courage and the perseverance, that that definitely impressed me a lot.
Host 40:56
Right. And so going through the trajectory of Myanmar history, even after you left as ambassador, of course, we know about Saffron Revolution, the Cyclone Nargis, and then the democratic transition period, I wonder to what as you would left in your capacity as ambassador, but your your, as I understand your heart never really left their cause and always stayed in touch to this day with the various people in contacts you made? What can how can you take us through that period. And what what you were thinking how the Czech Republic was involved, as it progressed through to the democratic transition prior to the coup.
Jiri Sitler 41:36
By the way, although I left the region in 2006, I was still for a few years afterwards as a director for, for Asian Pacific in our ministry. And also, after Nargis, I traveled to Burma to attend these in big international donor conference, I was appointed for that occasion like a special envoy for for Burma and I think the behavior of the junta after, after the cyclone was like eye opening for the international community also those who are maybe not that much interested to environment before they were shocked how how the when they saw how the junta reacted, I mean heartlessly against their own people after the cycle. Now, I remain involved also, privately and I kind of traveled to the ethnic reasons, ethnic regions, very often, for instance, wherever you might know, free Burma Rangers in the organization, for sure, I was also trying to organize assistance, you know, in the current state and in the sham states, other agents through various check NGOs. So there are many check NGOs. So there was a governmental health, but there was also several check NGOs were like, assisting significantly, both in the central regions, but also in the ethnic regions, like people in need, or other, the check other, which isn't like Christian organization, or many, many other organizations were involved in either No, providing medical equipment, renovating villages, or like burnt by the top models. Providing no textbooks or solar panels or Internet access are many kinds of assistance, especially in the ethnic areas that were like, accessible from the Thai border, so you don't have to go to from the official channels there. So there was a, I think, quite a significant assessments there from the chicken jewels.
Host 44:34
Right. And then as the transition period plays out, the 2000, basically 2010 to 2020 until the coup with various markers happening during that time to further push the country and the society into more openness. There's been a lot of discussion about what this period was, was it a genuine opening in some regard, or was it was it a quasi democracy or something that was just More of the facade as someone who's been so involved in Burma for so many years and following democracy movements in your own country and other countries around the world, you certainly have a background for being able to critically examine this. So what was your analysis as this decade took off?
Jiri Sitler 45:17
Oh, it was a very promising period, you know, and we had hopes that, I mean, it was very clear to us from the beginning that there are limitations given by the fact that the Constitution was what it was that it gave a lot of power to unelected military leaders, but at the same time, there was a lot of space at the time, which didn't exist before. Also for international cooperation for economic development, there was a freedom of the press to a large degree. So we have big hopes we open to the time as the Czech Republic our embassy in Yangon. Before that, as I as I mentioned, we covered Burma from Bangkok but the Thai Bill opened the embassy there are some Sookie visited Iraq, actually and met former co biters of Lazzara she actually attended the forum 2000 conference, which was inviting her like every year before when she was under house arrest. So again, it was like a simple gesture for her to actually attend the conference organiser was that already, but she met former House collaborators, we had a very good discussion. And our Minister of Foreign Affairs and other ministers traveled to Burma frequently the time we made Burma and dissipation in Burma, even before that, before the this opening during our EU presidency in 2009, we made it one of our priorities, you know, widely democratic change in Burma, and so yes, so I can't say that the cool was like, totally unexpected. It was like, we were never naive in the sense that you that we always kind of thought something like that might happen, but he hoped it wouldn't. Yeah, it was put it that way.
Host 47:50
And, of course, something did happen with the coup A year and a half ago that was launched. Did that take you by surprise? Did you see it coming? What were your thoughts when you heard that news?
Jiri Sitler 48:04
Well not we didn't see it coming in the sense that that we would kind of know something more than others that you know, but there was a certain buildup right after the after they didn't want to accept the result of the election. So there was a kind of a certain tension and there was like a certain build up and there was something in the air, so we hoped it wouldn't happen. It did. And it's of course, said and what's what's also said that the international action was not maybe as forceful as it could have been. The areas like the the civil society in Burma is very strong. It is resisting, the ethnic groups are resisting, but they don't get much outside help.
Host 49:16
Right. Yeah, that's certainly been the case since the coup was launched. What has regarding the international community we see a lack of action? What can you say about Czech Republic specifically, who's been a longtime friend of Burma? What is the Czech Republic been able to do since the coup was launched to show support and solidarity?
Jiri Sitler 49:37
They were like, I mean, we continue of course to support their Madhava like, they were like, several developments which made it more complicated, of course, the pandemic where before that we were like, providing checks, travel documents, Too many, not only Burmese exiles, but even some, let's say members of the, of the Burmese Government and currently also some members of the government of the national unity in Burma, they actually holders of Czech travel documents, but during the pandemic, it was not technically possible to continue. With this, they were not able actually to travel to the Czech Republic. And now admittedly, although we still continue with that support, and now, the main attention is on the war for the Russia's war against Ukraine, which kind of makes sense, of course, it's so closer, it's a direct threat for us, because Putin declared war, not only to Ukraine, but as he put it to the entire West, and they called the Russian secret services caused an explosion on our Tory territory of ammunition depo some years ago, and soldiers are direct and enact. And, of course, in that context, it's understandable that the the main focus of the say check political scene is on the on the situation in Ukraine. But at the same time, the Burmese representative for Europe for accredited to most European countries, and I mean, now the the, of course, government of national unity, I don't mean the whole death, but the representative seats in in Prague. So that's also in a way symbolic, and he's also a holder of a check travel document. So we continue with the support, but it's, the problem is that nobody knows exactly what to do from the Czech Republic now, except for let's see some humanitarian help some providing of the travel documents. There's always some, like, discussion about, like, providing weapons, also, like it's done in Ukraine, but besides have kind of theoretical debate about it is, of course, how could it be done? Technically, you know, this is not the neighboring countries have. So even if a debate would lead to a conclusion that something like that would make sense. How, how could we do that? So I think there is a little bit like, kind of certain level of helplessness this there, because we simply don't know what to do.
Host 53:25
Right? Well, away from the question of logistics, just looking at the the ethical possibility of providing weapons, where do you stand on that? Just removing the logistical challenge of getting them there? Do you think that this is something that Western governments and organizations should consider beyond humanitarian need, is actually finding a way to get armaments and weaponry into the resistance fighters?
Jiri Sitler 53:51
Now I would express all in my private opinion Yeah, I'm a government official and I'm not directly dealing with this issue at all I'm I'm Ambassador to Australia and I'm not in charge of this issue anymore. But in my opinion, it should be considered Yes.
Host 54:12
Right and for what this is a very controversial topic whether or not to provide arms and something as controversial as it is it's actually as far as I see it's not being discussed her way even all that much. So to give some background to your as you say, your private not your governmental opinion, what what's your reasoning for why you believe that the West should seriously consider providing arms and weaponry to the resistance now?
Jiri Sitler 54:38
We see that kind of people need it they're like further self defense, right? The the military, the top is attacking civilians, both in the cities but also ethnic A religious and they have access to foreign weapons, right? They use, I don't know, Russian helicopters and they they use other Russian or Chinese or whatever equipment. So that would be the way to balance the situation and give to the people the way how to defend themselves. But I'm here really like speculating, because it's, of course a very sensitive issue and I'm expressing my already private opinion.
Host 55:43
Sure. Do you believe there could be a precedent for providing the weapons or just a historical justification that would, that would show that this is something that is reasonable and needed at this time?
Jiri Sitler 55:57
Oh, well, yeah. We have one example. Now it is. Ukraine, of course. Sure. Sure. So and it makes a lot of sense there. But, yeah, it's true that it is something that that the situation Ukraine is a direct threat to the stability of Europe as such, so it is a kind of? I mean, there is no other way, you know, the the the, it's an act of defense here. So while maybe some other parts of the war that could be perceived as a kind of export war, you know, against, against foreign country. But, yeah, it's I mean, it's a complicated issue, but I think that it could be considered also as legitimate. Yeah.
Host 57:05
Looking at this resistance movement that's developed and I don't just mean the PDFs and the armed resistance, I mean, the whole thing, the the N ug, the CDM, movement, all the different components of how people everywhere are trying to resist military rule at this time, being someone such as yourself, who's not only a student of history and understanding of Myanmar's recent as well as longer history, who lived through as a diplomat, as an ambassador, several years of where this was playing out in real time in front of you. I'm really curious to hear your opinion of what you think of this current Democratic Movement, this current resistance movement, you've seen these forces at play under the surface sometimes above the surface for decades before this, you probably know all the main actors and have worked with them and supported them various ways. You've seen attempts of these, these potentialities come up from time to time and not succeed in those times. And we're now witnessing something that many are saying is significantly different and unique from what has come before. So as someone who has lived through engaged with and studied this recent history of the democratic movement in Myanmar, what are you what stands out to you today? What are you seeing? What's your analysis of this current resistance and movement?
Jiri Sitler 58:29
Yeah, it's true that in the last year, as I mentioned, I didn't have the possibility to travel to the region some, I don't feel as much competent as my might have felt few years ago. But what stands out for me is really these that these this is really a national movement. Today, what in the past might have been like some isolated groups of incidents, you know, of course, dissidents that or activists who had electoral success when it came to elections but nevertheless it was like eat the isolated groups of people it seems to be a quite a widespread national movement. Now so I would say that's that's quite different.
Host 59:26
And as you watch this play out, and you're in touch with the people from before I assume what what are you watching for what do you What trends are you seeing that are happening? It's been almost two years this has played out so what what stands out from what's taking place and what hopes you have where it might lead to? I
Jiri Sitler 59:54
mean, what what I don't want to make some like The General assessments were not what I see it's different from the past to mention one negative thing is the even increased brutality of the, of the army, which use this kind of equipment they didn't use before, also, like in the ethnic areas also protects by helicopters and airplanes and cetera, et cetera, and the increased brutality, in condemning condemning the activists who are against the regime and executing actually them, you know, that's also this brutality of the regime. That's that's imagine it could be even more brutal than it used to be, but it obviously is, but it also expresses maybe the level of desperation they are in I mean, they they maybe feel they are losing the grip that was in control. So there is a certain hope in that.
Host 1:01:18
Yeah, yeah, of course. And I think some people are already looking towards what would a post Thomas Myanmar look like? And how would it move on beyond this and looking at what happened and didn't happen in the transition period as a blueprint for how to do better and try to build a more equitable society going forward looking at models such as truth and reconciliation, as in South Africa, you actually in your diplomatic posts before you were involved with Czech German reconciliation following the Nazi regime and World War Two. And so I wonder if you see any parallels or lessons learned from your extensive involvement in repairing in the reconciliation of Czech German relations to an understand these are two different countries, even though one occupied the other. But if you see any similarities or lessons learned that could be applied in a potential post Thomas world where they're in building a more just and equitable society, there can also be some kind of understanding or reconciling without giving, giving back power privilege to those who've committed these atrocities and shaping the way forward.
Jiri Sitler 1:02:31
I don't know, of course, if these experiences are fully, let's say, transferable or applicable that there was a need not only to reconcile with our neighbors, like Germans and Austrians, etc, but there was a need for reconciliation also, within our society, and so. So we adopted also a series of laws and measures dealing with this, and one of them is a certain, like a measure of justice for the victims. So there was a series of, let's say, laws, which aimed to assist those who were somehow prosecuted by the former regime also financially. So there was some kind of compensations. So which, which, I think, was extremely important. restitution, for instance, of like, confiscated property, or if somebody couldn't study for political reasons, you know, to give him the opportunity, and support him, etc, etc. I think it was extremely important. On the other side, to deal with the perpetrators, where we had a special law, it was called rotational law screening, where some collaborators of the of the former secret police and some high ranking officials of the Communist Party were not allowed to be employed by the government, you know, like to work in the ministries etc. But they could be elected in elected positions that were that was like possible because it's up to the people if they want to elect such people was up to them but they couldn't get a position in the in the ministry. So the like, public servant so that was like, really important. Some people thought it was not enough. You know, there was no like the the crimes of the previous regime were not punished. Enough but at least We have to attempt to do that, like symbolically, you know, some of the some of the, let's say, the harshest crimes committed, they should be somehow exposed. I don't know, in the Burmese case, military commanders who massacre civilian population, you know, they shouldn't be pardoned, you know, there should be at least some measure of justice there. But at the same time, at the same time, you need to move forward somehow. So it's all always a question of, of measure, right? How far you can go in, in all these, like pursuing justice and keep the society together at the same at the same time. So And regarding Czech German reconciliation, it was like, one of the biggest tasks of the year after 1989, because it's connected with the German occupation, check silence in the Second World War, where many people are killed, many people are prosecuted or sent to concentration camps. And somehow they expected some level of acknowledgment or compensation from German. On the other side, there was a lot of acts of retaliation after the war against Germans who were ethnic Germans were expelled from the Czech loans. And of course, there was some also crimes committed against them in that period. So there was like, it took us actually. First, we established a committee of historians, which dealt with this issue for several years without too much political interference. And then the next step was the deep political representations, decided to conclude the issue by negotiating like a joint declaration on German relations and future developments are both sides, the German side acknowledged its its responsibility for starting the second world war for the crimes of the occupation, the checks, I acknowledge their responsibility for going too far, sometimes in the iteration, after the war in the joint Fund was created, which compensated some of the Civic teams, and then it was used for projects of joint interests, like youth exchanges, or renovating coughs or monuments in the border agents or things like that. So and I can say that now, nowadays, today, the questions from the past don't play any role whatsoever in Chairman raishin. So in that sense, it was a successful endeavor, but because after 1989, actually 20 years to come to the stage. So it's a long process. Easy.
Host 1:08:32
Yeah. And I think that's something very important to keep in mind in Myanmar, is that even if the democratic movement were to win today, and the time when that would be defeated the mountain of work that's needed on all fronts, from education, to health care, to governance to the electrical grid, economy, and then reconciliation, these things are gonna take so long to try to fix and fix right. And there's no guarantee that
Jiri Sitler 1:08:59
the relationship to ethnic nationalities that's very important also, to address that, and this is one of the things maybe that didn't go far enough in the time when it was halfway possible, you know, in the time of the NLB. Roll. Yeah.
Host 1:09:21
Yeah. And I want to come back to what you're talking about the World War Two, the German occupation, of course, the Holocaust. And this brings up a topic which intersected with my time in Myanmar, when I was with the American Embassy. And I this was 2010 when this incident happened, so I believe you were out of the country. But I wonder if you were aware of these dynamics taking place in the history, given your background and your time in Myanmar? When I was at the embassy, my understanding was and I wasn't on the inside of these discussions. So I don't know how they were what was actually happening in detail, but the way it was explained to me was that the American In the Israeli in the German embassies had been trying for many years to lobby what was then the military regime to be able to bring a program of during Holocaust Remembrance week, which is International Week where where themes and history of the Holocaust are brought out to remind and educate people on what happened. And that they had been trying to do this and Yangon in the military regime had consistently refused. And somehow, I believe it was 2009 or 10. I don't remember but the the military regime accepted and allowed them to do and so I was part of a series of presentations and exhibitions through these three embassies, of educating Burmese about in a series of movies, documentaries, panels, discussions, etc. What the Holocaust was, and it was an astounding experience because this was before the age of internet. Of course, education is not well, I should say there's, of course internet exists in the world. But in Myanmar, it's very limited at that time. And the access to books and proper education and such there's just not a from for a genocide and atrocities that happened half a century or more ago, half a world away. There, there were many who had never heard of it. And I've never had an experience like this in my life, where I'm in these rooms where these mature, educated adult Burmese, are hearing and trying to conceptualize and understand what the Holocaust was for the first time in their lives. And I've never in my life seen someone at that age and education maturity level, hearing about the Holocaust for the very first time and just trying to map out like the vague contours, the general shape of what what just happened, like, what is this? And I I remember, I still remember some of the questions. You know, I remember and I remember these participants had had tears in their eyes, you know, as they're hearing about what happened that they don't even really know what a Jew is, or they don't really understand this. And I remember once someone raising their hand and just saying like, Why? Why did the Germans hate them? So much? Like what what? Like, what drove them to want to exterminate these people? And it was such a kind of innocent and naive question, but also very understandable. Because if you're hearing about this for the first time, of course, this is one of and you don't really understand, well, what's the German? And what's a Jew? And what's their history there? And what's the history of anti semitism? This is also foreign to you. It would be similar to going to Germany and talking to an audience about the long term tensions of Rohingya and Bomar or or ethnic minorities and Bomar, there's just such a context to teach, it's hard to wrap your head around it. The difference, of course, is that the Holocaust was a an unprecedented, orchestrated act of of systematized state genocide that, and just the cruelty of those state mechanisms truly stand out. But it was really, it was really something else. And I'll never forget in my life have seen what it was like to tell an audience about the Holocaust, who had never heard of it before ever, and to see their reaction and how it landed. And, you know, and then also to try it very carefully, because at that time, this was, of course, the military regime was in full power, try to use those lessons to talk about some of the ethnic hatreds of this was, of course, the this was years before the real Rohingya campaigns would begin, which have been recently termed the genocide. So there's there's obviously parallels in terms of one groups hatred and and mistrust of others. But I'm wondering your comments on that, because you're you're some and I'm also wondering if my recollection of this is correct with the Holocaust Memorial Week, but as someone who has this as yourself who has this history of looking at anti semitism at German Czech relations at being an ambassador in Myanmar, when all of these ethnic tensions are happening, what your thoughts are on this coming together of of learning about anti anti semitic Holocaust history in a place like Myanmar?
Jiri Sitler 1:14:14
I think it would be definitely very useful. In my time, we were not involved in this particular topics like trying to teach about how cops we did some events like this in Cambodia, you know, in the because in the connection of like, Commandos, you know, and in in the we we did some exhibition about Holocaust in the, on the sides of the commericals. Genocide, but we didn't do that in Burma. That's true. In Burma, we focused on like, transmitting our experiences from Our own transition to democracy. But when I visited Burma once I was director for Asia at the time, so I was not Ambassador anymore. And after that I think there have been maybe 2008 2009. I don't remember the year. Exactly. But we traveled to New York, it was for the first time for me to be in the pedo I've never visited before we travel there by car, and they were searching for the foreign minister and kind of all the buildings look the same. So on a crossroad, we saw a group of young, Burmese on motorbikes. And we approached him and ask, like, ask them for directions. And to my surprise, when I saw that they had these, all of them these Nazi style German Second World War military helmets, with Nazi symbols on them. Like s, s, and d, the these eagle and happening crates and the swastika. And it kind of totally surprised me choke me. But even like, it was obvious, they had absolutely no idea what it was. I don't know, where did they get it from? They were not I asked them, but they didn't give us an answer. They just kind of purchased these helmets somewhere, somebody gave them to them. But they were like, we it was like a bizarre situation when we were like, approaching the Burmese foreign ministry. And yet, we were accompanied, because they were showing us the way which we couldn't find, by ourselves were accompanied by a group of young Burmese of the motorbike helmets with Nazi symbols. So I took some photos back then. But they understood that there was absolutely zero awareness about about this era, you know, so that was my encounter with this issue. But we, as a Czech embassy, we didn't actually organize any events like that. And maybe we could have. Now when you are saying that, it's seems like a good idea, actually.
Host 1:17:34
And I think that anecdote just speaks to the power of this, the symbology that, that Hitler came up with that he's able that they talk about just the resonance of the swastika and the black and the red and what it was able to do subliminally subliminally and psychologically in people's minds. And I think this is just a testament that so long later in a completely different context, there's still something attractive about just basically how people's look.
Jiri Sitler 1:18:02
It was, like, you know, not not some generic swastika to just to be clear about it. It was because it was these Nazi style. Second World War helmets with swastika and with other Nazi symbols, so it was not like this Hindus symbol or anything like that. It was very clearly.
Host 1:18:24
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've seen them in my time as well. So, summarizing, your just your background and your overall experience in Myanmar, you were introduced to me by by Igor blas virtue we just did, published,
Jiri Sitler 1:18:39
right, by the way, who are incredibly committed to democracy movement in Burma, and we, I think, did a great job.
Host 1:18:55
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And he was introducing you to me, he referenced you as someone who stands outside the normal type of diplomat and Ambassador someone who truly loves Myanmar, the country and its people. And so I wanted to reference this and speak to your deep connection to these people and the struggles and going off of Igor is quote, to inquire what is it about you? You've been all around the world, you've served in all kinds of posts and referencing e Gore's comment here, there's something about what you found in Burma that has grabbed or held you in a place of grabbed, grabbed or held you like other places have not. And so I'm wondering what it was about Burma among all the countries you've been that managed to get that hold that still remains to today.
Jiri Sitler 1:19:52
This incredible commitment to the cause of freedom and democracy where really, I mean, people are risking so much, and they were still like doing it, you know, they were still still fighting and risking their lives listing risking decades in prison or in the ethnic areas also risking their very lives. So it was like, this kind of admirable commitment to the cause. And despite, like, oh, the circumstances, and despite the odds, you know, they they just quite admirable and at the same time, I know, this, and but at the same time, combined with think there was like, lack of hate, I didn't feel like really hate it, you know, people just want it to be free, but didn't necessarily mean they hated the adversary, you know, that that was like, it was a very heavily on, you know, these kinds of attitudes. So that, I think it was like the, the thoughts and kind of approach of bad survival in the practice, but like, in the, in another part of the world, if, you know, you know what I mean?
Host 1:21:38
Yeah, I absolutely do. And that's going back to what you referenced before about the international community's reaction in response to the coup, I think this is what makes it all the more heartbreaking is that this is a country I've spent 15 years in, and I have deep connections with, with the people as well and and what they're going through. And I think this is what makes it so tragic, is these people are risking so much, not just now. But over the course of lifetimes and generations, and now probably more than anytime before. And they're risking this to stand up for these things that we not only enjoy freely in most of our societies, but that our entire governments are supposedly behind and, and supportive of and yet, they've received almost nothing in in their struggle, and they've continued to risk everything, to try to achieve these democracy and human rights and creating an equitable society and moving on from this tyrannical and corrupt society that's ruled them before and caused so much oppression and harm and to see them burdening so much of this struggle on their own now as the world for whatever reason, has not come to its aid and somewhat turned its back. It's some kind of oscillate between the inspiration and the resilience that we're seeing from them and just the shame and the the misfortune that they are not getting the support and wondering what one can do however, small I might be your my platform or anyone listening that feels just a small themselves, what can be done to try to change that and bring more support and solidarity even? Whatever level it is, at whatever measure it is to show they're not alone. And that their their struggle is something that is inspiring and supportive by so many freedom loving people around the world?
Jiri Sitler 1:23:38
Yeah, I mean, we definitely need to do more. I don't have like a recipe, we talked about some maybe controversial ways, how to help. But of course, there's many other things that can be done more humanitarian help. If people don't want to deliver weapons, they can always deliver medical equipment that can be more targeted, sanctions, their costs, many ways how international community could help but the problem is that talking about international community I mean, it's unlikely that like, countries like United States or Australia or the European Union can finally solve the issue. It's also a question for neighboring countries for India, for a certain member states, and it's kind of a set to see them not to do anything.
Host 1:24:58
Yeah, so in case Rosina and I'd like to ask you and hopefully not put you on the spot too much with this question, as you recollect from your memories, but you have been in Myanmar many times, you spent many years there held several different posts. And I think through your experiences, you have a very unique insight and an interaction through your particular involvement that myself and many listeners didn't have you met with many people, you saw many different parts of the society. And so I'm wondering if there's some kind of anecdote, you can close out with something that comes to mind. And again, I don't want to put you on the spot. So much, you've had obviously so many to choose from, and so many you interacted with people at different levels?
Jiri Sitler 1:25:44
Well, it's not an anecdote, but maybe like, I always like to see all these kinds of sometimes desperate looking situations is always so encouraging to see moments where you see that somehow people survived, and they constructed their lives. You know, I mentioned the representative of the the government of the national unity in Brocklin. Taunt is a guy who spent decades in prison who was condemned to death who had big health issues because of that, who managed somehow, after decades of imprisonment to escape to Parliament, and this guy, married happily, he has children, he's raising them, you're representing the democratic forces. So he somehow kind of survived. And despite being condemned to death, you know, there's like life and his children, there's future and the works for the future of Myanmar. Or when I was once visited the, for the first time and I visited the current state, I think it was 2009, or something like that. Like, via Thai border, I spent Christmas in one of the current villages, and they were so hospitable and so nice, you know, but then, years later, this village was destroyed and burned by the Burma army. And somehow, it made me angry back then, and with some, like friends and organizations, and the help of freedom rangers and others, we decided that this village will live again. So we collected money in the Czech Republic from different organizations, and the village was rebuilt and reconstruct it and it exists. Again. So there are many villages like that, and there are many people from around the world, helping so it's like, despite all these distraction, there is always hope, you know, there is always future.
Host 1:28:28
I think that's a great story to end on. And thank you for sharing that. And thank you for coming on and talking about your wealth of experience and reflections.
Jiri Sitler 1:28:38
Like many things that could be said, but I think the the, I would like to end with this idea of hope, which was also like a central idea or guideline for outside hardware, as you might know, that he signed on as his name in green, you know, with a green pen, and he added all A's heart to it. And once he told me that he does that, because the heart represents, like, passion. And the green color represents hope. So we have always hoped for the best and do things with passion. And that's the idea I would like to conclude with.
Host 1:29:36
Thank you. Thank you. That's a good thing to keep in mind now. And thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us.
1:29:42
Thank you for inviting me
Host 1:30:27
After today's discussion, it should be clear to everyone just how dire the current situation is in Myanmar. We're doing our best to shine a light on the ongoing crisis. And we thank you for taking time to listen. If you found today's talk of value, please consider passing it along to friends in your network. And please also consider letting them know that there is now a way to give the supports the most vulnerable and to those who are especially impacted by the military's organized state tariffs. Any donation is given to our nonprofit mission better Burma, will go towards those vulnerable communities being impacted by the coup. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution, any form of currency or transfer method. Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military protection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as the upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contributions for a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by our nonprofit mission that are Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's b e t t e r b urma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account you can also visit either the Insight Myanmar better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support. Guys