Transcript: Episode #122: A Conversation with Gil Fronsdal
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Gil Fronsdal, which was released on September 10, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:11
Hi there, and thanks for listening. If you're enjoying our podcast and have a recommendation about someone you think we should have on to share their voice and journey with the world. By all means, let us know. It could be an aid worker, monastic author, journalist, scholar resistance leader, really anyone with some Thai or another to the ongoing situation in Myanmar. To offer up a name, go to our website insight myanmar.org And let us know. But for now, just sit back and take a listen to today's episode. Really excited to bring you the following interview with Gil franceville, a meditation teacher based in the United States. As you'll hear in the interview, Gil spent a number of months meditating intensively in Burma back in 1985, including time in monastic robes, which proved to be a formative experience in the spiritual journey. Personally speaking, it was also a delight for me to conduct this interview. Because I used to play gills Dhamma discourses while sitting my own self retreats in the caves of the sky and hills and Myanmar many years ago. Following our talk, Gil suggested that I virtually addressed meditation students in his community. The Sati center for Buddhist studies has generously offered to host this talk. And it's scheduled for Saturday, September 17. From 930 to 11:30am. US Pacific time, you are also invited to attend. I'll mainly be speaking about Burmese Buddhism, the various meditation lineages there and how I see meditation intersecting with the current democracy movement in Myanmar, as well as taking any questions posed from the audience. So in the end, I expect a wide ranging discussion to join the Zoom talk follow the links in the write about this episode for further details where you can also register and with that, let's get into my talk with Gil.
02:26
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha yeah, absolutely amazing. And it was it was it was it was out.
Host 03:01
Really honored on this episode of insight Myanmar podcast to be joined by the meditation teacher, Gil Franz Dell. Gil, thanks so much for taking the time out of your schedule to talk to us today.
Gil Fronsdal 03:10
happy, very happy to talk with you. Yeah, so
Host 03:13
this is a real privilege. For me, we've talked, we talked about this just a moment offline. But just to let our listeners know, in my years before, before the coup, actually, even before the transition period, when I was living in Myanmar and taking my own self courses, often in a in a cave in the southern hills. It was your voice from Dhamma discourses that I was often listening to and the evenings in the cave. After my day of meditation, somehow your discourse has always really connected with me. And we haven't had the chance to talk or meet yet. But we've had some connection, at least a one way connection from having heard your discourses and what they meant to me. And it's just, it's just a real honor to to get a chance to meet and talk with you after hearing your voice after days of silence sometimes and Myanmar.
Gil Fronsdal 04:03
Wonderful. Yeah. So I'm happy to talk with you. And you're making them making me more interested in you and then talking about
Host 04:13
it could be a back and forth, we can we can definitely do that. But before we get to my side, just to learn a bit about your background, your interest in Buddhism and meditation and what brought you to to Myanmar, eventually, where you practiced and how that influenced you. And you went back to America, if you can just take a moment and tell us a bit of your story.
Gil Fronsdal 04:34
Yeah. Well, I'll tell you briefly the most salient parts of my biography that have to do with my experience in Myanmar. And so I was a Zen practitioner for a good number of years. It was ordained as a Zen monk Zen priest, and was very happy practicing Zen and, and didn't have much of imagining issue or interest or curiosity to go beyond Zen, because I was, was pretty settled and content in the whole experience I found myself in. And one of those experiences was, could be understood simplistically as a very deep acceptance of the present moment, where I've really felt a sense of peace, belonging, connected. Simplicity. And in my meditation practice doing Zen head, doing this kind of deep acceptance of the present moment kind of practice, has brought me to places of stillness or letting go or falling things falling away that I'd never knew was possible for a person. And so I was very good content for quite a long time, until there was a scandal within the abbot of the monastery. I went then went to Japan to continue my Zen practice. But there the experience was not quite as rich as I had in America, partly because it was much more ritualistically based. And there was much less emphasis on meditation prayer, paradoxically, and one of the one of the main training monasteries in Japan. And I accidentally went to accidentally, to get a new visa for Japan went to Japan to Thailand, was introduced to the person or the, in the Mahasi, tradition, massive practice in Thailand. And after a year, year and a half or so I decided that maybe a couple of years that I wanted to go back to the source of the Maaseiah practice, it became crucial for me to practice that continue that practice, something happened in Thailand that that I had no choice but to go further with this Vipassana practice. And so I went to the mossy center. And, and was I had to short context with a teacher who Pandita outside of Burma. And I practiced with him for a month in Nepal. And I stopped to visit him for a week at a time in Burma on the way to Nepal, and back. And, and he was such a warm man, and very wonderful to be with and very accepting and, and so I was all set to go to Burma, I went there took a long time to get a visa, I think it took nine months to get the visa and go out there and practice there under his tutelage. Mostly him for eight months. And that was a transformative experience for me, that would say, you know, change my life direction, and everything was quite something to be there. Turns out that he was very different teacher, when you came to practice at his monastery than he was when he was a guest elsewhere, he was much more stern and strict, there was quite something, to see this change your personality and him when he I, because he took me more seriously. And when he took people seriously, there's I think there's sometimes a certain certain kinds of Burmese, or eternal kind of attitude of care and of your people in your charge, where you are really strict with them. That's how you show your love or something. And so many of us Westerners or practically Pandita received that kind of the term, paternal parental parental, and he gets the word I want to use parental kind of goodness. And, but so what, why, why it works so well for me to be there. finita and why the introduction I gave him for myself, was that he had a much more of a goal oriented practice and very strict and really, really, you know, a lot of lot of effort in practice. And, and a lot of the Westerners I knew at that time, burned, burned up under his tutelage. And some people had really serious psychological problems, challenges that they had to recover from after practicing with him. But because I hit the Zen background the I didn't buy into what the striving that he was teaching. But I did buy into the care and the attention to detail attention to detail, the practice he was teaching. And, and so it's attention to detail was a fantastic have worked really well as on the foundation of this deep acceptance practice I had in Zen combination works really well for me, so I kind of thrived in that practice in Burma. And, and so that that's, that's my background that brought me there. That was it. It was you know, relevant for my experience
Host 09:58
there. Yeah. Thanks for that. And just to refresh, can you remind what year that was? And were you a lay or monastic practice practitioner at that time?
Gil Fronsdal 10:09
So that was probably 1985. And Burma has just been opened up again for Westerners to come there about three months before. Right? And, and so 1985 I was told that there was a government spy, just watching us Westerners meditate. Yeah. And that must been very interesting for the spy. The so 1985 What was the other question?
Host 10:42
Oh, were you lay or?
Gil Fronsdal 10:45
Well, I was a Zen priest, Zen monk. And it was more like the Burmese point of view. That was a layperson. Yeah. But what it meant for me Pandita was that I had to I was an ordained enough that to get to be ordained in Burma, I had to wait four months. There's a there's a rule somehow, if you're already ordained, and another tradition, you have to wait four months before getting ordained as a Tera Vaada. Monk. So, so I was named after four months. So for first year, first first four months, I was laid the second four months, I was a monk.
Host 11:24
So that's interesting. So just focusing on that dynamic and distinction for a moment. Do you recall differences in either your practice or your life there or your understanding anything? Some people just say that, wearing the robes, it's just just a change of clothes. It's just really a different kind of clothes you wear for others? It's a more profound experience you you weren't exactly wearing lay clothes before you were in clothes of a Zen priest. But as you took on the Myanmar Bhiku, robes did that. Did you notice any change in your life or practice or interactions at that time?
Gil Fronsdal 11:55
Not really, when I was ordained as a Zen monk, Zen priest, that was transformative because it was. But in, in Myanmar, being a terabyte monk. It wasn't. So it didn't, it didn't change almost anything for me, because I was doing intensive meditation practice. And so I hardly lived the life of the monk. And if anything, being a monk was not as ideal as being a layperson in the monastery was every two weeks I had to go to do the potty mocha. That was, you know, for someone in intensive Mahasi practice, anything to take you out of sitting and walking, and any I mean, I was so I was so into it, that I would only wash my clothes. We had a daily practice discussion with your plan DITA talking about our practice, except for Sunday, it was well, you know, one day a week or something. And so I would never wash my clothes, except that when I was going to be not see him, because we were accountable for how many hours we meditated every day. Wow. And so we had to tell him how many hours of sitting how many hours of walking meditation we did. And if you didn't do enough that his eyebrows go up in a way that you would, you know, was not good news. So when I knew I wasn't going to report my hours, then I would wash my clothes. And to get a sense of how limited my life was. And why why, you know, anything to anything, like getting ordained was make my life more complicated. This is the way I washed my clothes, I would had a bucket, I brought a bucket with me from Thailand to provide my own little plastic Buck bucket. And I had an electric spoon that you stick in the wall socket. And so it filled my bucket with water, stick my electric spoon in the socket, and hang it into the water. And then I'd meditate for a couple hours. And then I would come out of meditation. And I would put my clothes into the bucket of water to soak and then I'd meditate for a couple hours. And then I would come out of meditation and I'd wring it out and hang it up to dry and then meditate for a couple hours. That dad was as as complicated as my day golf. So if so to you know go every two weeks to go and do the chance and and and then have to deal with the ropes and or little things I had to do that I didn't have to do as a layperson. So my life is a little bit more complicated as a monk. So I benefited some from the monastic experience. But it just is telling you that my experience was very, very limited. When I were ordained as a monk, it was open ended. It was like for the duration and you had no idea that it was going to be temporary. But after eight months it was appropriate to leave to stop practicing with the Pandita and I wanted to go to Practice at IMS at Massachusetts. I'm going to continue doing the Masie practice but I wanted to do it with English teachers who can language wasn't a barrier. And but it was only had been a mantra for months and I felt it was irresponsible to not been trained as a monk to leave as a as a monastic. So I disrobed, only because of that, you know, I was content being a monk. So my experience, you know, was very, you know, that was my experience.
Host 15:30
Right? And did you go on alms rounds when you were a monk as well?
Gil Fronsdal 15:36
I don't think I went on arms rounds. Maybe once, maybe once going bears, maybe once I did, it's going barefoot. But I don't hardly remember what to do remember, was it my DITA wants to took me to have lunch with someone as a as a, at a laypersons house? We went to a few of us went in, and, and, you know, just walked barefoot there. And he washed our feet, we came into the house, we sat down, and we were served, and they went back to the monastery. But that was about the extent of it.
Host 16:12
Mm hmm. Right, what really strikes me and hearing that story is this was the mid 80s, sometime from now and just your your level of detail and describing just what you did during the day, and how you were navigating the week and the interactions. I mean, this is a long time ago. And to have that level of memory of those subtle nuance things happening this time must have really made a mark on you to remember things. So clearly, unless you just are gifted with a blank memory about everything in life. But you know, these things are really standing out crystal clear from a time long ago.
Gil Fronsdal 16:47
I suppose so. But if the meditation practice is what made the, you know, made the big impression on me, the details of daily life, maybe part of the reason that they some of those remain, is that there were so few of them. Right? You know, I mean, I was meditating 17 hours a day. Wow. And so and then, and then sleeping four hours or four hours or so, and going to the meals and going to the Dharma talks and stuff. And so there wasn't that much. To remember. So the things that happened that were listed out, you know, they, you know, there was much, much less to remember than what most people have in a course.
Host 17:35
Right, it it strikes me hearing that to 17 hours a day, that detail the detail about how you had to do your laundry because the limited time you have and reporting to Pandita I think there's probably people out there listening even very dedicated meditators who are are just kind of, for lack of a better word cringing, that or shocked by by that level of intensity just an Pandita is known among many the different traditions is known as being extraordinarily disciplined especially among those traditions that Westerners have access to. I should mention, there are other traditions that there are no real English versions of that or more local Burmese traditions that are more intense than this, but they're off the radar of Western practitioners, but among Western Yogi's who Pandita is definitely known for the disciplinarian side of the practice and the teaching and just what you share about your time there definitely gives that impression and so to ask perhaps a silly question because I can't think of how else to word it like did you like it? Was it was it excruciating? Was it amazing? What what what background can you share about you know, just being in an environment that was that intense?
Gil Fronsdal 18:52
Oh, well, it varied over the eight months of course, but the in terms of my memory and what is what we you know, what made the biggest impression on me was you know, so that which stays most fresh in my mind was how wonderful it was the meditation I mean, I sat you know, I sat I had so much so such so such a long, so long periods of extended your rapture, bliss. And I've ever had in my life. There was a there was another Westerner down the hall from me who was struggling a lot. And I just wanted him to come I had this idea that he should come and just sit. I did all my sitting meditation on my bed and have a wooden bed wooden platform. And, and I wanted him to identify, oh, he can just come and sit on my meditation spot. I'm sure this this bubble of joy that I have. It just is just like kind of just is here on this bed now, you know, it doesn't go away, when I go away, he's just here, he just sat here, he would experience it, I had so much, you know, it was so engaging and time would go so fast because I would, you know, I would I would sit for three hours at a time. And it was just time to go a lot longer really fast. And it was so anyway, so that just it was so wonderful and, and engaging. And I was fully into it. And I just gave myself over fully to that practice that he had to offer. And, and I did, you know, as I said before, he had a striving quality to it, His teaching and His emphasis. And for the first two months I was there. I just engaged fully in what he was kind of I think I bought into some of the striving I was kind of an it kind of worked for me up to a certain point I was, but then I just wonderful thing happened. And that was that, uh, he left for two months. He went to teacher to a two month retreat in Australia. And in the end, the substitute teacher was this wonderful man named lacuna. The remains is lucky enough.
Host 21:17
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's the green hills here.
Gil Fronsdal 21:19
So he was the he was the. And he was, you know, Pandita was the strict general, ordering his troops to practice was the sweetest grandmother you could ever want to have. You could do more wrong into luck in his eyes, like he was just so loving and so accepting and so delighted and, and so when you went into left, me you left at exactly the right time for me, for me, because when he left I relaxed, but much momentum going that then I dropped into a whole deep, deeper, deeper level of practice. And then I just cruised along and just went deeper and deeper, deeper with under the tutor, I don't know, I don't know how much of how responsible it would love to know wise, I don't remember him teaching me much. What I remember was just how accepting he was of me and, and how that just created a wonderful kind of context for the deepening of the practice. I started with Pandita. And so by time we've been beneath I came back, he was tweeting me with a kind of kid gloves, he was so careful with me for a short while for a while, because I was you know, coursing so deeply in the practice. And so that was that was all of it. So that was you know, so it went it worked for me. Because I did nudge the first few months of that pushing, I think it did it did me well. But then, because he left, then I didn't end up with the downside of that kind of striving. And I did it just enough until I could let go and not needed it.
Host 23:12
That's interesting. It's interesting, also looking at the polarity between two Burmese Buddhist monastic teachers, from the same tradition, no less of Mahasi and just the how extraordinary differently different they can be in how they're disseminating the teachings and working with students. And so that makes me wonder and coming to Burma and being having all these same constants, the same, you know, the style, the place, the tradition, everything else, but just having one difference one variable in terms of their personality. I wonder, you mentioned just now what that did for you as a student. But I wonder what that has done for you as a teacher if, as you've developed into a meditation teacher in the US, what examples or influences these two teachers have had on you and thinking about how you then relate to your students?
Gil Fronsdal 24:04
I see. Yeah, I don't know if that's the question I want to answer. So, but to try to try to try to meet what you're trying to ask. So, when I started being a teacher, so what so when I was in Burma, I was trying to I was also trying to contend with and deal with the teachings I was receiving from open data and it was hard to accept them all. And and so so what what in terms of what you ask now. So what I was trying to convey to you that I found this wonderful combination of Zen what I learned from Zen, of a radical acceptance of The present moment that as it is, without any idea that there's something to attain and to gain and anything to just a moment of mindfulness is complete in itself. And, and I gained a lot from being on the Vipassana journey being on this path that unfolds and deepens, it's clearly more than just being in the present moment. And, and so I became interested in so this has been kind of my, as a teacher, my negotiation with myself in the Dharma is how much to emphasize these two sides emphasize the radical acceptance of the present moment, as something that's really valuable and important in and of itself. And much too. present to people teach to people, that there is a goal, there is some retain, there is a direction, there's an unfolding over time that can happen. And when I was first started to be the pasta teacher, I was still very much under the influence of my Zen training. And so I did, for the first 10 years of my teaching, I did a lot of this acceptance practice part of it, and not so much the striving that you need to have. But after about 1012 years of doing this, I began to feel that, as wonderful as it was, I might have been doing a disservice to some of my students. Because without having some sense of what the potential is, in this practice, people don't orient themselves to that potential. And so it actually helps to have some sense of a goal have some sense of how people can deepen and how much further this can go then. Because what had happened for me in Zen practice, I was very at home very content, with a level of, of kind of deep peaceful acceptance of the moment that I had attained. What do you Pandita showed me was that, in the micro moments of my life, I was not so accepting, in the, in the general overview of the day or that of the Hour of the, or of the minute, it seemed like I was, you know, quite at ease with how things were. But when I did this very fine, finely attuned attention of insight practice, I saw that there was a lot more going on, than, than I had missed, and also in a deeper lay level of my mind that I than I'd ever realized before. So I saw that, you know, I needed to do this practice, discover this, you know, that there were even deeper levels of acceptance tonight known as Zen. And, and so, so then in the in, you know, in the year in 2000s, I started then slowly increasing more and more telling people that they're, you know, more like, there is a goal and, and, and that's slowly grown over these years, I think, you know, that's that's the direction you could last 20 years, my teaching has taken us more and more, emphasizing the journey emphasizing the goal. In the 1990s, I would never use the word stream entry. That was kind of like he was I was kind of dead set against it. But in recent years, I mentioned it more and more. Because regardless of the problems of mentioning it, I felt like it was important to let people know, to have some sense of possibility that they would throw themselves into the practice little bit little bit more than they had been there quite a bit more than they had been. Well, that I don't know if that was my attempt to answer your
Host 28:54
No, that's, that's great. And it makes me think of a number of things. I mean, for one, it mirrors one of the most important early dominant insights I had, I still remember it, it was I think, the second going through course, I sat going and it was my introduction to the practice. And I was in Japan, and somewhere where I was living at the time, somewhere near the middle of the course, the group sitting was about to start. And I suddenly had this, this urgent question that came to my mind, which was this dynamic between wanting to constantly strive to be better whether that was in a spiritual worldly sense to constantly strive to be better than what I was to improve myself every moment and every day, while at the same time completely loving and accepting myself for the person I was in that moment. And the dynamic and the tension of this question was so extreme, I actually broke the rule of going to court and I ran into the bathroom with a piece of tissue paper and a pen and I just wrote that question down on the tissue paper because it just seemed so in credibly urgent for me to have to think of and, and process. And as time went on, I realized that I don't know what the answer to this question is. I mean, the answer to the question is something we can talk about for some time. It was more that the question itself is probably the most profound question I've ever I've ever asked myself, just the mere juxtaposition of these two things. And the awareness of these two together has this probably shaped my life ever since of realizing this, this dynamic tension and these two things that have to be tended these two wings of the plane, whatever analogy one wants to use of loving myself and accepting myself every moment while also striving to be better than what I am this moment for the next moment. And what also strikes me hearing this as an interview I did a couple of years ago with a Korean American nun slash lay practitioner, she has gone back and forth and robes, Melissa coats where she describes and she did Paolo she describes when she first arrived in Myanmar, hearing the teacher talk in the Dhamma hall of the the, the the different attainment levels, and just the excitement, she just said in all of her Dhamma life and practice. In America, she had never once heard anyone talk about it as something that was possible or tangible or even practical, even the steps leading towards that, and there was just this buzz of excitement that that indicated to her this is what Myanmar can offer. This is this is the difference of coming here to practice than what I get at home and just loving that it wasn't just something that made her lay life better and and more more balanced. But something that was actually striving for this greater goal. I think on the flip side, having lived in Myanmar for some time and reflecting on on this creative tension and dynamic that you mentioned. I think it would just as we can offer some some some observation that in the West, they there might be a hesitation for for reasons that we can also discuss of why these attainments are not discussed as much. I think in Myanmar, there can also be a in many contexts there there, there could be a lack of awareness or attention or instruction on being mindful of that moment, as much as there's an emphasis for the better rebirths. And the good karma on the, of course, the Abbe Dhamma, which is so central there, the actual moment to moment instructions of mindfulness is something that is probably not as pervasive in among, you can make a general statement across Burmese Buddhist society as knowledge and interest in towards those attainments. And so it just it makes me think of a lot just both on a personal journey as well as eastwest, Myanmar, us of how the practice gets disseminated. And what gets emphasized. And the importance of having both of these together having the ability to I think you call it the radical acceptance of, of, of whatever the moment offers, and Pandita taught you to go deeper into that and deeper into perhaps that dissatisfaction that wasn't apparent before. That practice with him. While while also being I really liked what you said, Being attune to the goal of where it goes that it's not just a providing someone the tools of a more balanced life, but it can actually lead to stream entry and more.
Gil Fronsdal 33:18
Yeah. Yeah. Very nice. So I'm delighted to hear that you hadn't you know, you're navigating the same, the same tension. So I navigated that with him with you, Pandita. And then, as a teacher has been something that it's constantly irregularly in my mind, how, where do I find the balance between those two sides?
Host 33:42
Right. And you had mentioned when you first talked about in your introduction, speaking about coming to Myanmar and practicing there, you called it just an extraordinarily transformational period in your life. I don't remember the exact words you so I don't want to put words in your mouth. But you, you spoke about just how instrumental it was at that point in your life. And I think you've described that somewhat in terms of the practice that you gained and the the Mahasi work that you were doing, but just to come back to that, is there. Is there anything else you'd want to add to that? Just highlighting how significant that was to your life and how it changed you going forth?
Gil Fronsdal 34:17
Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure exactly, you know, what's useful to talk about, but, you know, it was, you know, the profundity of it all for me, maybe 111 kind of little bit indirect way to get us happy to answer questions and say more, but an indirect way events question. So I went to, you know, went to from Japan to get a new visa to go back to Japan. And while I was there, I thought I'll just try. Learn something about Tera Vaada Buddhism, so I went to the first little monastery, I could find meditation monastery outside of Bangkok, as I'm here, just what do you you know, tell me what to do. And so I was given a cootie little cut on the edge of the mat. Mysterion ends told to do sitting and walking all day. And turned out it was a Mahasi center and Burmese and Thailand. And it took me 10 weeks to realize that the visa wasn't coming. And so my first vipassana retreat was 10 weeks long. And that was long enough to get my attention. And I got more concentrated in those 10 weeks than I'd ever had been concentrated, practicing Zen, because in Zen, the most intensive retreats was seven days. And, and in that, in that concentrated state, I touch something I never touched before. And it feels like a little kernel. And in my own, you know, kind of non technical mind, I called it a kernel of self. And without making any metaphysical stories about what that is, but it was such felt like a touch something. And it became essential for me to touch that again. And I just knew that that's what I have to do. And it was kind of a little bit like a dark night of the soul time for me because I went back to Japan and practice there. But I was clear, I wasn't going to touch that place in Japan. And so that's why it became so important to go back to, to go to Burma to keep doing this practice is the only way I knew how to, you know, I touched it in Vipassana practice once there's only thing I knew how to do. The only thing that mattered for me every nothing really mattered anymore in life just to get to touch that place. And so I went to Burma, did my eight months of practice. And while I was there, I didn't think about this kernel of self thing that I mean, once I was there to practice, I forgot about the strong urge to want to go practice. So I was doing what I wanted to do. So I didn't think about this anymore. And then some months after coming back to United States after being there, I realized that that that question had vanished, or that quest to touch that place or the need to touch it. And I could never say that actually touched it again. But it kind of the whole thing banished, the whole need or the whole situation to that vanished. It's almost like the kernel vanished and no longer became an issue. And, and so that's what happened. But that's one way of saying what happened in Burma.
Host 37:24
Hmm, all right. Thanks for that. And so in your time in Burma, I understand you were doing mostly an intensive practice you reference going out once to a lay supporters home to be offered a meal but didn't have too many interactions outside of your own practice did being in the country, or the culture or the people or anything about the actual place you were in? Did it? Did it affect or impact you in any way? Or were were you just so focused on the practice that you weren't so aware of the surrounding country and culture that you were in?
Gil Fronsdal 37:59
Yeah, it wasn't so, so aware of the surrounding culture? I mean, I certainly picked up some of it. I mean, some of it, you probably know, the loudspeakers in Burma. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, the monastery was surrounded by these loudspeakers. And, you know, I must have, you know, the amount of times I heard Madonna song was sung in Burmese, so I didn't know what the lyrics. But luckily, it wasn't Burmese. But that was played so often. And then there was like, the seventh day I'd be, I'd be dumb festivals, where they would be done by 24 hours a day for seven days. On these, you know, recipes, public speakers, yeah. So that was, you know, a little taste of the culture. But, but in terms of what was important for me. I was really inspired by the generosity of the Burmese Buddhists that I encounter. I felt like I was, you know, I hardly had any contact with the rest of Burma. But in the eight months, I was there in the mossy center. I really felt like I was the guest, really a guest of the country. And their whole culture, the whole country was hosting me and caring for me. And at some point, I needed a dentist and the dentist came to see me and at some point, had some other little health issue and a doctor came to see me and there was never any discussion about the payment or and I felt like anything that I needed that there the country was there to take care of me and I remember some very poor woman when I was a monk, I think, I think it was a monkey that point. Very, very poor woman coming up to give me something this, you know, that probably was a big deal for her and some kind of food. And I was so so touched that care Attention. And the generosity, I was touched by the fact that dharma was offered freely in such a deep way. And there was never any hint that I was supposed to pay or do Donna. It wasn't any smell of any, any any expectation of that from anyone when I was there, and to feel that how freely it was, seemed to be offered and, and to experience you Pandita, you know, six days a week and offering us Dharma talks and meeting with us one on two, wow, this is quite he's dedicated, this is quite generous, and, and, and then feeling the devotion. memasuki Center is like a when I when I first stepped onto the campus, I felt this was this is like a large junior college campus. Right? United States. And there were times there were 5000 people meditating there. Into witness, dedicated devotion, dedication, this series, that's just one of the one of those great sites of my life was there was a woman's meditation hall, a huge meditation or was like 500, women with meditating there at one time only rose. And as you know, Burmese women when they meditate, at least when I was there, they kind of set sights up saddle rather than cross legged, which makes their their spine much more erect than the men who sit cross legged and what I saw mostly over. And so I would go every morning, I'd walk by the women's meditation hall. And it was a big outdoor building that had the long side of the walls or doors that big doors opened up. So it's mostly open, you can walk by and see them sitting there. And seeing 500 dairy, provide a noble looking women meditate completely still, that was so inspiring to see. You know, this dedication. And so I think the atmosphere of meditation of practice of devotion of the Dharma, and that I felt oozing out of that particular corner of Burmese society that I was in, touched me in some deep emotional way that certainly I think, inspired my practice and guided me to this day, inspires my dedication to teaching freely and not expecting anything in trying not to expect anything in return, certainly not asking for anything in return as often as I can. And I think from that experience there,
Host 42:37
that's amazing experience over three decades ago for a, not a short period of time. But a limited period of time, when you were there has just had this kind of impact on you to this day is so strongly so profoundly. And I think this is just to highlight as well, this this is also why on this platform, we're so one of many reasons why we're so interested in hearing these stories is I think that there there comes to be a kind of flawed or misconstrued representation of Myanmar as being a broken country that is to be pitied and always is needy, needy and is, you know, one of the least developed country status in the UN. And so really a place that that is just always in need of other things. And I think this is not a we could talk about the political situation. Aside from this. That's all true, of course. But when it's just given that one dimensional view, it ignores the fact that this was the country and the culture that kickstarted the international mindfulness movement from back from Mahasi, say, Adan lady said, and this is the country that has just you know, the minute that tourism opens up, the minute that visas are allowed, and Westerners are able to go, this is the place that is just embracing unconditionally, as you describe with such immense generosity, bringing people in with no strings attached, and just giving, giving, giving, and not just giving from not just standard giving or giving what they happen to have on hand, but giving a really priceless gift of spiritual teachings of liberation, that very few other countries have access to masters that are able to disseminate in that way. And so it's so important as we look at this three dimensional view of what Myanmar has been over the years and what it is now, and certainly the problems notwithstanding that the other side of this is that it's been, it hasn't just been a beneficiary, but it's also been a tremendous giver, to the world and to the people who have come and exporting this to be able to, to be able to survive and thrive around the world. You know, just the other day we talked to one of the close disciples of Satan who Pandita also an American. And he described not just coming to Pandita in Myanmar to receive the teachings on a personal level, but who penned Ito was concerned about the state of Myanmar going forward and the the political problems and the conflict and wanted to make sure that the Dhamma would survive outside of Myanmar's borders. And so was was not just bringing people in on an individual level to teach them but wanting to take efforts to make sure that it could be routed and propagated in other countries so that it would, so that whatever the fate was of Buddhism and the teachings in Myanmar, that it would have, he would at least be able to start these little fires and little places that could survive without him and without Myanmar. And so I think, to put what you're saying in his wider context, that just this memory and appreciation of in spite of some of the difficulties, Myanmar has gone through just how tremendously and unconditionally it is given and what it has, what this access of what it has of this Dhamma knowledge that this is not a small thing to give, this is a tremendous thing to give. And this is something that many practitioners around the world have looked towards Myanmar and different times in different ways, even with the imperfections of Burmese Buddhism, which we can also talk about, but has seen it as a certain kind of spiritual authority that is able to give in a way that few other places can.
Gil Fronsdal 46:14
Oh, great, I'm inspired by that was very lovely to hear. And, and I think kind of in the desperate inspiration I've had from being there. And my gratitude for my time there. And I think, you know, I mean, I think I mentioned you before we started here that, that, you know, I didn't know who you who you are, when you asked me. Okay, so I didn't even know what your podcast was. And then in the search it but somehow with because your name was insight Myanmar, is associated with all this goodness that I received from that country? And I said, Oh, yeah, I'll tell you.
Host 46:54
I'm glad you did, what you did. And another thing to go back to is the Donna and the generosity. And I think digging a bit deeper into that I think the initial reaction of Westerners is definitely even tourists. It's just wow, how giving this is and how supportive but as I stayed there longer and lived in monasteries, and I think on my personal journey, I made a decision at some point that I wanted to live in monasteries without doing self retreats, because up to a certain point, my time in monasteries was basically with closed eyes doing striving, as you call it, to want to not waste a moment. Hearing not Pandita is voice in my ears, but going because voice in my ears of how how important it was to not waste a moment with the time available. And at some point, I realized, you know, there's a lot to this monastic culture, if I choose the right monasteries, of course, because there are many different kinds of traditions and teachers and environments. But if I choose the right monastery, there is a lot that I can learn and grow with my eyes open and interacting. And, and that I don't have to be limited to this silent intensive practice all the time. And as I made that decision, to engage more to learn more interact and learn the language. And I started to see the way the C into Donna a bit deeper, one of the things that really impressed me was just the pure, simple joy of giving. And I think that in a western context where at least I have felt trapped by certain conventions and thought patterns and to just see someone give 500 chat, you know, which is 50 cents of that time, and just have this absolute sense of delight to not be judging themselves for not giving more for not be proud of themselves that they want people to know, like, look what I gave, but just this, it was this some declaration of truth, almost, you know, that, that I have given 500 Chat purely. And it's for this purpose. And I say this is truth, I can rejoice in this truth I can, whatever else I've done in my life, I can hold on to this and no one can take it away. And then you'd see the people around rejoice in it and say Saudi Saudi Saudi when something sometimes it can be convention, sometimes it can be ritual, sometimes it can be actual joy, and actual, oh, I am happy that a good thing has taken place I am I am pleased that there has been and a wholesome act that I celebrate. And I just found the Burmese kind of these at least in the monasteries I was in it's kind of these masters of getting as much mileage of generosity and goodwill from whatever giving was taking place and and and that really freed me to to realizing that I didn't have to always be so self judging even self hating or you know questioning and you know never really been satisfied with it just realizing that whatever I do I could do that and and have it be a finished thing and really take a sense of value in myself that I had done this or pleasure in someone else for doing it. And I remember having this attitude and then going out of the country ended up going to the Philippines and did it go and of course there are. And I remember an experience at the end of the course where someone had someone had to, to pay something they use, like an air conditioning in the room, and they had to pay extra for that. And I don't know what it was, let's say it was $200. And then or let's say like, it was like $120. And they gave $200. And as we are giving the $80, back, they said, Oh, just keep it as Donna. And coming from Burma. I was just like, No, no, no, you can't do it that way, you need to take this $80 Hold it in your hands know what's yours, and then give it back with the volition that, you know, because this is how you really benefit. And and it just gave so much more of like making an intentional moment of of that. That simple act of generosity, that it wasn't just about sitting on the cushion and striving for these dates or reaching these radical states of awareness in the present moment, which is important. But it's also the simple act of realizing you're doing a wholesome thing and feeling so good that you've decided to do that and trying to get away from this self judgment and transactional nature and, and everything else and just simplify it to the the the most basic act of giving. And that's, I think, as I got deeper into it, and it wasn't just a recipient of that generosity, but also seeing the the mechanics of how it was being displayed and trying to learn from it, you know, with my eyes open that, that I was really able to benefit from that lesson.
Gil Fronsdal 51:23
Fantastic. Yeah. And so the way you you've talked about, there's a lot more to learn than from Burmese Buddhism or for Buddhism in general. To be had in community, in the monasteries, in the monastic life, for example, in the social life there than just closing your eyes and doing internal practice. This is a very important lesson for many people practicing here in the West. And it's not as bad as it used to be. But I think that the inside communities at IMS and Spirit Rock didn't do a good enough job for many years, making this connection of the practice into the rest of people's lives. And there was a time especially in the 80s, where there was almost no focus on practicing in ordinary life, there was when there were very few urban centers or sitting groups and, and people just knew that they felt great when they went on silent retreats, and then life fell apart outside. And so then they just hurry to go back to Silent retreats. But this idea that there's how we live our lives, is as important as being on retreat.
Host 52:42
Right. And that also makes me think of something that I think you were quoted, I'm trying to remember where this was quoted, I think it was in Jake Davis's book, and I don't remember the title now. But it was about bringing Dharma Buddhism to the, to the west. And I believe he had a quote of yours in there referencing how, and I read this so many years ago. So I it's not, not an exact quote, it's my memory of it, that you would express the concern that the 10 day format of presenting the meditation retreat has been such a powerful model for the practice of insight and integration, that it was becoming very hard for teachers and senators to conceptualize other ways of bringing the practice than this model which had become so consistent and persistent everywhere. So I'm wondering if I got that right. And if so, just expanding more on that.
Gil Fronsdal 53:42
Yeah, I think that there's some truth to that. I mean, it's changed radically in the last 20 years. And but there's some truth to it, that the insights movement that I'm part of, it tends to, in a very broad way, broad strokes way of talking to the people who get trained to be the the, you know, the teachers, the orientation and training them is that they're going to be retreat teachers. And some of them only think of themselves as retreat teachers. And so on retreat, the kind of teachings you teach are very narrow. And you don't necessarily you talk about you to give teachings that are relevant for being on the retreat, and you hope they have some relevance to everyday life as well. But there's the retreat centric and so it's so it's not there's not often isn't then is not a place to those teachers don't have a good forum for how to support people in their daily life or in their social life, political life, economic life, sexual life all kinds of areas because of the narrow Noosa as this central focus on retreats as the As has been a growth of urban meditation centers in our movement, and more and more seating groups, and I think that this has changed quite a bit. And so that now there's lots of lots of places that you can now learn the teachings that are learned, learn how to live a Dharma life, that has to do with your whole life more than just what happens on retreat.
Host 55:27
That's great to hear that it's evolved in that way and the tradition you're in. Now, in addition to your time being spent in Myanmar in 1985, you also reference before we talk that you had a connection with Lucila Nanda who was a Burmese monk from the Mahasi tradition, I believe, I think he was based in the Bay Area, share a bit about your interaction with him and what he was doing, bringing the teachings to the US.
Gil Fronsdal 55:52
Well, Mahasi say it out. He came to America in the early 1990s. And did a grand tour, went to IMS, went to different places. And apparently, when they came back to San Francisco to leave to go back to Burma, Haas, he told you soon and under the stay in America to teach here. And so he did. And there was a I don't know when it was there. But so then when I was gonna get ready to go to, to Burma, I wanted to learn a little bit what it was going to. So I heard about him the susu and under guy who lived in his house, in Daly City, near outside of San Francisco. And guess the house has been used as a Burmese temple. So I called him up and asked him if I can come see him. And he said, Sure. So I showed up and knocked on the door, and he opened the door for me. And the remarkable thing about meeting him was that I'd never met him before. But he treated me like we were old friends. And I never had this experience of a total total stranger treating me like we're good friends. And so I had me again, then, somehow, and, and we, and that's what I remember that meeting how warm he was, and the friendship and the kindness and the acceptance. And, and so I don't remember what we talked about. But mostly I was getting ideas about what it meant to practice in Burma. And then when I came back to United States, I looked him up as well. And I spent some time with him. And I did a retreat with him. One Week Retreat. And again, in terms of the diversity of mossy teachers, for a practice discussion, there were so informal, we were both sitting couch. And, and it was more like we were just like friends saying hello and check checking in. It didn't have the formality and the strictness and the accountability to the practice that you're going to have. And, and this idea of just being I felt like he was just being himself and friendly. And clearly, he was a great meditation teacher, he knew his practice inside and out. But to have this sense of comfort and ease and himself and friendship was was. And he was a great scholar, you know, he was, I think he was a secretary of the Remar society, you know, his central role at the sixth Council in 1954. So he was deeply steeped in the Dharma and the tradition and, and, and, and then learning from him. He was wanting to put me first people I started learning about that there were Bodhisattvas in Burma, the people who are taking the Bodhisattva pact, right. And so that was kind of novel, in fact, that he, I think, even wrote a article about it. And it kind of opened my door, there's much more to Burmese Buddhism, then. Fine. And then I met I met this man who westerner who had been a monk for 10 Pull the site down. And he was at his time with one of the great guests, one of the great teachers ascended to Burma, but because my friend was a monk amongst can talk about things that monks are not allowed to talk to laypeople about anything, you know, amongst to lay people don't say anything that gets close to talking about their attainment. And so but to but to my friend, he said, you know, people in Burma think I'm an art hot, but not an art because I'm on the bodhisattva path. I'm practicing to be born the time of Maitreya Buddha. And what that means in the Burmese kind of doctrines of attainments, that temple Messiah was not even an art that was not even a stream enter because then you can't hang out long enough to get reborn the time and Maitreya Buddha. So to hear these different stories now years and and into and to hear with him and for others that I've known other teachers See how they're held up to be our hearts in the popular culture? And by people who don't really know. And in the amount of people who have their petitions of being our hearts are probably aren't. It was a little bit disturbing for me. I met one of one of these teachers, Ty teacher who is considered to be art came to the west tonight to deal with his ethical transgressions, I do intervene and hear about things that don't people don't ever hear about. Art. That's, that's what people think. Yeah. So this question of, you know, and so the, the devotional ism where people are ready to hold people up on this pedestal of their as high attainment is a little bit troublesome to me, sometimes, because it's inaccurate. And so in any event, if it is accurate, I think there's something a little bit irresponsible in giving such blind allegiance to other people.
Host 1:01:04
Yeah, I think that's really true. And I think you get the whole range of those things, the whole range of those features, when you go to Myanmar, I think it's really important to note that for those who haven't been or who've just read some of the very, very limited literature that's come out, you're, you're accessing a version of it that's been exported. And that version that's been exported, always goes through a tremendous amount of changes as depending on who was exporting it and how they're doing it. And going when I went to Myanmar, and oh, three to pilgrimage, and then oh, seven to live, I was really thrown into a world that I wasn't prepared for. And so many ways I could go on and on with examples, but especially from on my side, I was coming from the blanket tradition. So my most of my prison for understanding it was through the stories and discourses and what I'd heard from that tradition. And to have that juxtaposed with the actual reality that was in front of me the depth and breadth of Burmese Buddhism. It was, it was overwhelming. And I didn't have anyone to turn to I didn't have anyone to really talk to about what I was feeling and what kind of dissociations and questions and confusions I was having. I think I've since then I've tried to, to give shortcuts or hints for people who've been in my position from through writings and blogs and these podcasts and being able just to to talk about those, I think one of the things that stands out is just that there's these vast similarities of the practice and the goal and the spiritual perspective that we have between those of us who practice in even Burmese traditions abroad and then in Myanmar, but in Myanmar, these are those people that are holding these views are kind of the extreme, traditional, conservative, Orthodox version of that society, whereas those of us holding the views in Western society or the other end, I mean, we're the alternative free thinking, you know, progressive mindset. And so it's, um, and so even though we share this one kind of commonality in terms of how we're practicing, what we're practicing for, the values that we're holding around it are really quite different. And sometimes those do come to a head. I think, also, you know, one can't just simply can't dismiss the orientalist outlook, the romanticism. We were talking before this podcast began about how I think for many practitioners, many Western practitioners, Burma does not represent a three dimensional country with living people and their own problems and issues and imperfections. It's really more of a fantasy that is, is in one's mind and feeding the spiritual path that one is on and is playing some kind of fantastical role in one's mind for how one is approaching and integrating the practice. And I think once you break through that Orientalist or romantic way of how you want how what the country means to you, and means to your practice, and see it is actually living people, those things start to break down and you start to see it more honestly and realistic. And I remember I was reading I'm gonna get the names wrong. I don't remember who the scholars were. I know Spiro Milford, Spiro was one and I don't think I remember the name of the other. But Burma has been so close to so many people over the years, just had brief moments of opening and it's during the 1950s or 60s, there were a couple of American Buddhist scholars who got access to it. And they in reading their conflict and their argument during those period, I found it just very educational for for the entire meditator community really, where they were. One, one of the this was years ago, I read this so I might fumble some of the details but one of the scholars had written something that was basically equally a somewhat of a criticism of the way Burmese Buddhist society was behaving based on his understanding of, of how a Buddhist society should be and the historical things he had read from the colonial period. And then the second scholar in response to that, basically argued that he was not so much observing the society as the Buddhist society is it was actually manifesting and showing itself, but that he was coming in with the structures of what he expected things to be, and sometimes things he was reading from Burmese Buddhists themselves, but that were not so much authentic accounts, but more, more, more prescriptive of how of what the society should be, rather than what it was. And so wasn't the scholar wasn't the first caller wasn't able to actually see how it was manifesting and wasn't studying what was actually there. But was studying what should be there and how it deviated from that. And the second scholar as a response to that was trying to open up new ways of looking at how the society operated by not viewing how it was described by Burmese as well as colonial and Western authors and meditators but how it was manifesting and in Buddhist scholar in Burmese Buddhist scholarship, that's certainly opened up far more and, you know, in last 10 years, especially with the transition of, for example, weights, I mean, the way that that the weights, and the NAT devotion is understood by Western Buddhist color now is so different than it was before it was really seen as something on the outskirts and something that some deviance or practitioners engaged in beyond the normal. And it's now being seen as something that's so much more inclusive and integrated into so many more Burmese Buddhist practices that that has some form in in the mainstream. But I think there's there's been a hesitation over those years by practitioners as well as scholars that these things are a little weird, they're a little magical, we need to we need to remove the the mystical, unexplainable parts, and then make it scientific and rational and have it fit with modern explanations. And I realized I'm gonna cover a lot of topics here as I as I go along. But I think that, that that is something that many Buddhist teachers everywhere have had a problem with. This new wave of Protestant Buddhism is trying to figure out how to how to make this practice appeal to a modern, contemporary, logical, rational, West, largely western audience. And yet, there are such mystical elements in there that are sticking their heads up, and eventually down the road, you have this kind of contradiction. And I think that the way that Burma has been understood over the years, and the way that the Burmese themselves have presented it, because they felt, you know, many of them felt real shame, during the colonial period, and then in the independence that they had these magical mystical elements popping their head that there was a self censorship on both sides that was trying to play those down and make it more of a psychological tool or something. But then where did those things come which are so integrated to begin with? So sorry, I'm all over the place here.
Gil Fronsdal 1:08:10
I remember when I was with DITA DiMasi center across the street from his house, which I went to almost every day, there was a spirit house in the tree. And sometimes Burmese people would do their little devotions offerings to the Holy Spirit house. And so one day I asked you Pandita, what was going on over there? And, and he said, nothing's happening there. He just kind of was ignoring it. Like it was for him. It was it was invisible to him, or at least it was, this is not something he was going to touch with me. And, and I was really struck that this is I don't know what he believed about spirits house, but I wondered whether he was not part of his worldview.
Host 1:09:00
Yeah, and I think that there, that story makes sense to me. And just being hesitant to want to explain something that doesn't fit into the version of practice that one wants to impart.
Gil Fronsdal 1:09:12
Yeah. And that's why, you know, some other time, maybe we can talk, I would love to hear from you to hear how you contextualize Pandita and Mahasi. In, in the context of their culture and their time.
Host 1:09:29
Yeah, so I think that that kind of coincides with something I was about to say anyway. And that's that when you look at how these things get exported, I think that there can be tremendously important Burmese traditions that Westerners have absolutely no access or knowledge to because probably simply because of language because there has just simply not been an emissary who has been bilingually and culturally able to navigate bringing this tradition To another audience. And I think the Glinka tradition is really interesting in that regard. Because Mahasi on the other hand is mossy is big in the west and it's big in Myanmar. So it's, it's just it's, it has many monasteries as well known everything else. The Gonca tradition is quite big around the world, but quite insignificant in Burma. It's significant I should put that with an asterix is significant in the way that Glencoe was a an Indian businessman who started who took a basically a Burmese Buddhist meditation practice and remodeled it for an international audience, to make you go around the world, and is that and so he's absolutely beloved and admired and revered in that sense that he was able to spread something from Burma in a way that very few people have. But in terms of the actual size and scope and importance within Burma, it's extremely small and insignificant. And then on the other hand, you have traditions, as I mentioned, that are just massive that no one has ever heard of, just because there hasn't been that proper emissary to bring it there. And so I think that, that has been some of my fascination as a practitioner of being there as wanting to get a better picture of this, this landscape in, in the country before it got exported to understand on their terms, the different traditions and their role and how they intersect. And I don't know if I have any answers, I don't know if anyone has any answers. I mean, it's a plethora of of traditions that are there are absolutely mind boggling. The only scholar I've known who has ever tried to tackle it, even in a small, small way was Christoph Hartman, who wrote a PhD thesis in 1990. And that's the one that when people are looking at meditative traditions, that's really the only resource out there that I know people go to fat. It's a bit messy, but absolutely fascinating work that has just not been attempted by, by other authors.
Gil Fronsdal 1:11:59
But what what I'm delighted by in meeting you, and realizing that you and your website and what you're doing, you are being part of this bridge, between West, west, the West and Myanmar. And it's, I think it's really important for the West to get a fuller picture of the country, the culture in which the practice has come from.
Host 1:12:25
Just want to reference where Burma is today with the coup and how difficult the news is coming out of there and how awful the situation is. And just as someone as a meditation teacher, and someone who has spent time in there and has gratitude to the country and the traditions, just to hear any thoughts that you've had in following and keeping up to date with how things are progressing there?
Gil Fronsdal 1:12:50
Well, I'm not I don't feel like I'm that up to date to it. I don't, I don't think have anything original to say about it. But except for one thing that I haven't haven't heard anybody else say him. Not all this, that there's all kinds of horrible things coming out of Burma, including from some of the monastics that, at least the news in the West is some of these national monks are nationalistic, and seemingly encouraging the violence against the Muslims. And, and, and people ask me how could Burmese monks do these kinds of things. And so I think I think there's one good thing about all this, and that is that we don't have it. It helps us to understand that Buddhism is not an exception to the other religions. That is there. Some people have this idea that Buddhism is the pure religion in Buddhism, there's no violence and no more. Somehow Buddhism is all good. But all religions have their flaws. All religions have ways in which the followers of the religion do all kinds of strange things. And so it kind of pops the bubble of certain kind of idealism of Buddhism that I think is a bubble that should be popped.
Host 1:14:40
I'll be honest, not only is asking for donations, my least favorite thing in the world, but I find it pretty uncomfortable as well. Yeah, it's an unavoidable but necessary tasks in order to ensure that our platform can continue to bring you stories from post coup Myanmar. And unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that there's a basic minimum cost to keep our engine humming So please allow me to take a moment for that least favorite and uncomfortable thing to do, and that sincerely for your generosity and supporting our mission. If you found value in today's show, and think others might as well, we ask that you take a moment to consider supporting the work. Thank you for taking the time to hear our spiel. And with that, it's off to work for the next episode. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution, any form currency your transfer method, Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person, IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episodes. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's BETTRBURM a.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account you can also visit either the Insight Myanmar better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org If you'd like to give it another way please contact us thank you so much for your kind consideration
1:17:30
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