Transcript: Episode #123: A Failure of Diplomacy
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Lucine, which was released on September 106 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:11
During the current crisis unfolding and Myanmar events are happening so fast, it can feel challenging just to keep up with them. And we're working to increase our podcast production to stay abreast of this ever changing crisis. Besides our podcasts, we encourage you to check out the blogs on our website insight myanmar.org, where you can also sign up for the regular newsletter, you can follow our social media as well just look for insight Myanmar on your preferred platform. With that, let's head into our show.
00:46
Put to death for standing up against a military coup.
00:50
first of February 2021, the Damien molars transition to democracy came to a halt.
00:58
Myanmar's ruling junta announced Monday that it had executed for pro democracy activist
01:04
widescale election, Ford was the reason generals used to justify taking back control
01:13
deaths the country's first executions in decades are met with Swift condemnation from international human rights organizations. This is clearly a signal to these Myanmar people from the claim denied by the election commission. A look at the way that are laid out, have a good day.
Host 02:45
Thanks for taking the time to talk with us.
Lucine 02:49
Why? Thanks for reaching out to me.
Host 02:53
Yeah, so you're, you're a Burmese living in France. You've been there for some time. And you're actually in before now served as a diplomat there. So can you tell us a bit about how you first came to France and the role and the capacity you served and what you were doing there when you first arrived?
Lucine 03:13
Oh, okay. Because I happen to be the liaison officer between France and Myanmar. So that is the reason why I had the chance to come to me to France. But then I was living mainly in Myanmar. But I had, of course, some time passed in France at that time,
Host 03:44
right. And so can you tell us a bit about the early days of when, when, how you how you were able to get the post you did the diplomatic posts in which you were serving and what you were doing in that capacity?
Lucine 04:00
Oh, it started from the Burma socialist program party days. And it was the time that we had to go through many procedures, especially for the diplomats through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. And we need someone who knows about the country where the diplomatic mission is assigned, and also the other part of the country where the mission diplomatic mission comes from. So as I speak both languages and as I have passed, many experiences through my family ties and from through my parents connections as well. I applied for the post and I got it It is mostly, if I may continue. It is not only for the administration, not only for the diplomatic relations, but the hidden agenda is through the political conditions, which means how you know about the political situation.
Host 05:23
Tell us more about that.
Lucine 05:25
Okay, during the promise, socialist program party time, I had spent only one year or two years before the military coup in 1988. So it was not very remarkable compared to after 1988 events, because we were under the first military coup since 1962. And the restrictions were very rigid. And as you may have heard of those days, that a foreigner were would be given only seven days visa to come to Myanmar. And everything is under red tape. And it lasted for when I joined the embassy, it lasted for about a year over a year. And then all of a sudden, the 1988 coup happened. And it changed another direction towards the diplomatic relations, how the embassies react to the Dan situation. And the political detainees at the time, how they were supported by the international community.
Host 06:49
And remind us what year was it that you joined the diplomatic corps and Myanmar
Lucine 06:54
and of 1986? Okay, so
Host 06:57
you were a diplomat, basically, for two years before ADA to that time at 68. And Myanmar was not really on anyone's radar anywhere. A lot of things happening in silence and without a lot of attention. And then 1988 to 1990 hits. And can you tell us where you were during those years 88 to 90, and how being a diplomat representing Myanmar affected those events going forward? Okay.
Lucine 07:31
I would be honest about my reactions, then, in fact, I was mostly biased about having the year political detainees released as soon as possible through the diplomatic pressure. And I was mostly working on it. Because at that time, unlike the 2021, military coup, and the aftermath of 2021, military coup, the world has been silent and ignoring about the the sufferings gone by the Myanmar people. But in 1988, the whole world turns their attention towards Myanmar. And it was very helpful and very effective for me to work through the diplomatic relations and putting on the pressure on to the to the voice of international community to release the detainees, and to speak up speak up about Myanmar.
Host 08:59
And where were you at that time? Were you actually in France between 80 and 90?
Lucine 09:02
Yes, yes, no, in Myanmar.
Host 09:05
So tell us a bit more than what that role was what how you were appointed in that role, and what you were responsible or even allowed to do in that role as liaison.
Lucine 09:21
In fact, the role was to perform the smooth relations between the two countries within the official framework lay down by so many protocols, procedures and other diplomatic procedures, but within that limited framework, if you know how to play from the Safe, safe side, I mean, save How do you if you know how to play it safely, then you can achieve certain goals from your own back like, I would be giving advice to the French or French authorities through the diplomatic channel to connect to who to which site to give to which site to give more pressure to, things like that. And
Host 10:26
to give so to further illustrate or put in people's minds exactly what you were doing, what those years was, like 88 to 90, isn't, can you recall any specific anecdotes or experiences or interactions, that would be able to further illustrate the role that you were playing as well as the type of conversations that was having that time between Myanmar and other Western countries?
Lucine 10:49
Okay. Myanmar, was under the military occupation, of course, but they started arresting the political parties leaders, including Dawson Suchi, who Chima Putin who and all the prominent leaders. And this, you may notice that some journalists went into exile and some students went into the jungle to form the groups, they went to Thailand, they went to India, they went to America and so on. So the international community, especially the western group, and allied countries like UK, the US and France, would work out on protecting these people. And if they asked in the, in the detention, they would crowd for the release of these people as soon as possible. But it doesn't, just by crying out for the release of the those people will not serve. So we started looking for the EU, Visa pen and travel bans and economy ban on certain people and certain enterprises. It started with EU, I think, and we would have regular update of lists of people that could be banned under the regulations. It is to retaliate. And to stop the further economic development of those people and to to punish them in a way I would say. It is not from it is not right after 1988. But it I cannot recall the years exactly. But it gradually happened that way.
Host 13:29
And at this time, you were in an official position. And the actions you were taking I'm not sure if this was above board or perhaps in secret and so on. So not known complaint, you're actually taking actions which are penalizing people in the military regime. Didn't were you to ever feel unsafe or threatened or or at this time.
Lucine 13:54
Of course, we have been watched. I have been under the surveillance and under the watchful eyes of the military intelligence and through the I'm sure they have the list in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Myanmar Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They formally asked who are working with the diplomatic missions. And we have to submit the diplomatic missions had to submit a list of local people who are in connection with the Ottawa under the diplomatic missions to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs every three or four months and they will update it including the drivers gardeners or housemates, every everyone. So it was tightly controlled and even when I move about, they will be I know that they will be following me. But I don't until today, I didn't know why I was not arrested. or I don't really understand at all. But sometimes they will be watching at me. When I come to the, when I come to the embassy, they will be sitting at the gate and looking at me. And when I go to certain places like your NLD headquarters or to, to the NLD party members houses, they would be informers, and they would be taking take pictures of me. But at the time, I think they are more focused on the people from the American Embassy.
Host 15:45
Right, and you were more connected with the French Embassy.
Lucine 15:47
Yeah, so the French, the French are not as severely. He did, I would say because, because in the newspapers at the time they would be writing was console articles on US and UK. Because of the data that was especially because of the radio services, like BOE and BBC, they would say, Skype full of lies, PeeWee VOA, and BBC. But, and for France, because of the language barrier, you may not know what we are seeing or what we are. Publishing.
Host 16:41
Right. And these were the days before Google Translate, so they couldn't hear and see. Right. So I think that's an interesting segue for trying to under better understand the French response to Myanmar over the years, I think, as you mentioned, there's a lot of attention paid to on the American and British side for various reasons. And I think that does open up a question of what within the French government with the French press, the French people, how have been someone as yourself who's been a bridge over the course of your lifetime between these two cultures? How have How would you characterize going back from really 1986 through 88 to 90 through the transition period? And then today, I know this is a very big question, but to give us an overview, from your early experiences of going to France, meeting high people in French government, French society, how would you characterize the relationship and the perspective from France of
Lucine 17:46
Oh, at that time, I would say France is a very hospitable and welcoming to us. And they are real supporters of the democracy democratic transition in Myanmar. And that is one of the reasons why Dawson Suchi herself came to France after her release, and she had been given honorable titles like Legion donor and so on. But they had been very steady supporters from 1988 to 2016 17. But when Dawson Soo Ji went to iCj to testify in front of the court about the Rohingya, I think it was a failure for us, for us means for Myanmar, and it turned out to to be unfavorable for the Western bloc, to support EMR, because whenever when I am now I'm in France, and whenever I talk about Myanmar, what they would have, as the first impression is that Myanmar means Aung San su chi, who is not kind to go into that, and they don't want to hear any more about it. That is the reaction we are facing. And it is, it is negative impact for Myanmar people, even though they may be issuing statements and so on, that they condemn the military brutality and so on, but it is only on the paper, but in the past from 98 to 2011 12. It was substantial. Their support was substantial, not only releasing statements on the paper, but with my participation, I would I'm very proud to say that the the their support was very substantial.
Host 20:11
And after Aung San su chi is visit defending the military's action, you found that that substantial support in your words was not seen after that point.
Lucine 20:22
No, no, no, no, no, no. And it is true that they are media would release news on Myanmar. And they will talk about Myanmar for the first one or two months after the coup in 2021. And after that, they kept totally silent. And whenever I meet people here, whenever I talk about the up to date news of Myanmar, the local people will be so surprised. Oh, is that so? Because we heard in the beginning about Myanmar, and then we lost track of what's happening in your country. This is this is the actual response I get here. But the authorities in the in the French government, of course they know it.
Host 21:21
Right. It was that fateful decision by Aung San su chi to come and defend the military's actions against the Rohingya. So given that decision was so faithful and so impactful, and really, you could say, so devastating for what it's done to erode support, not just for her, but for the country in general, do you have any sense or theory why she chose to do that?
Lucine 21:46
I would understand, I wish I could understand her situation at that time, because she was torn between two poles, that is the military and her victory and her potential victory in 2020 election, because at that time, the entire population in Myanmar is also not very welcoming to the Rohingya ethnicity, to be included in Myanmar population and, and mainstream of the Myanmar people's concept about the ethnicity ruins your ethnicity, then she would have failed in a in her forthcoming election, because the general population is not favorable to go into. This is my sentiment, my personal sentiment. And another thing is, she could even lose votes from the military camps. This is the first time that the military personnel were able to vote outside of the military camps. And she could have made a drastic difference, if she had said, we have to accept Linda as our ethnic, ethnic people. So she had no choice. And at the other end, on the other hand, we have heard You must like the court could be stage during her absence from Myanmar while she is testifying in The Hague. And she was, like, threatened by the military at the time. And she had all the time I tried to coax military in her own intellectual way. But it didn't work because she had trained she had asked that the military personnel be trained for civil military relationship and how the military should stay away from the civil administration for years from 19 So sorry, from 2013 to 2017. Through the help of the British Military Academy
Host 24:43
right so whatever she was attempting to do was ultimately not successful in your perspective. Right now looking at the current situation in Myanmar and looking at the ties between France and Myanmar the one thing that strikes out which I'd like to get your perspective on, as well as how it's being covered in France, and if it's being covered at all is the role of totaal. Oh, yeah, can you can you first give some background on what totaal is and what their interest is in Myanmar?
Lucine 25:17
Oh toto is is the revenue generating company for France. That is for sure. So total, had been there for decades. And it helped the community in the in the pipeline areas through from the, from the oil wells to the, to the place where the played on the plight of pipelines, they help the community, but for France to the is very huge company, providing a lot of revenue for the government. So pulling out total from Myanmar is a big blow for the, for the let's see capitalist, crude people in in France, because they would argue that no tutor is recruiting and employing 50,000 People in Myanmar and they would lose jobs if tutor pulls out. The don't see that total has been or they see that, although they see that Dota has been providing a lot of income to emoji Ministry of oil and gas and the price. But they also want I think they also want to have the year football in compare in competition to other oil companies. Because there are some other oil companies working in Myanmar. And but finally, they agreed to pull out.
Host 27:17
Right and during this decision, as they were looking at whether to stay in there and their their their work. They're the as you mentioned, the oil revenue provides a great resource for the military regime, which then can use that to purchase weapons, other things to use against their own people. I'm curious about the relationship between tau tau to the French government, and where the French government was in wanting to influence what Qatar was doing if they were putting pressure on them to leave or if they were looking at ways to have them stay or what what people in the French government were saying and reacting to totalis presidents after the coup.
Lucine 28:01
Fortunately, that was the time when we had a big demand that toto should leave the country to let the French people know about Myanmar. But after that it died out because the news from Ukraine is overshadowed the news of EMR even then, now, not many people talk about Ukraine here.
Host 28:31
Yeah, people have a short attention span. That's yeah. So as someone who has been in diplomatic circles for so long, between Myanmar and France, especially other countries, I'm sure as well. Since the coup happened, there has been a real discussion of legitimacy of who is actually the rightful representatives of Myanmar and that has played out in the United Nations and ACN, but also in embassies around the world who is actually controlling these embassies. Is it sympathizers with the regime or people that are close within ug or democracy movement? This can be somewhat confusing for outside observers to understand how are represented representatives chosen by international community and bodies. How are things verified? So can you break down a bit what has been the struggle since the coup to determine who is the legitimate representatives in diplomatic circles among those trying to represent me in March the outside world
Lucine 29:35
make you want to say the representatives from the energy
Host 29:42
well let's let's look first at at embassies let's look at and I guess we could start locally with you because you're in France, and then look at wider Europe because obviously the Myanmar Embassy in London is has been quite interesting what happened there, but just in terms of the embassies itself. How is it determined who which people working at the embassies, where their allegiances actually why
Lucine 30:08
Oh, some of the embassy staff who Myanmar embassy staff went for the civil disobedience movement. Some do not. And some ambassadors for example, the Myanmar ambassador in France, he did not observe the IRS civil disobedience, this obedience movement, but we cannot say that he is totally pro military or he is whether he is pro democratic movement, because he is just sitting, we call it sitting on the fence. And he was not recalled yet. And he had not been replaced by any military personnel yet, I call it yet because they can be for the posts like US and UK, there are a lot of shuffles. He is a career diplomat, he had never been in the military service. But there are people who would say that, Oh, don't go and approach him because we can never trust him. So, I don't I don't contact him. And we never know whether he would report anything back to the regime or he would be just doing his regular diplomatic diplomats job, but it is very likely that he will be reporting what's going on here. Especially there are some Burmese people who fled the country, some journalists, some photographers who fled the country and they are here, they are hobbled by the French government on special conditions and it is through the individual efforts of each embassy. I think it depends also on the head of the mission and also by the government, although they may not be openly speaking, we recognize and Yugi it is I think, very political, I would say that it goes beyond the diplomatic procedures, it goes up to the super powers, like who is on this side of China, who is on the side of Russia, who is on the side of us and so on. So, I think France is playing a safe game like they would have a those who fled the country from Myanmar, they will be given special visas here they will be they will be asked they will sorry, they will be provided some allowances like Social Security and special privileges, some immunities here. Although they may not be given as refugee status, but it is it has been ongoing since last year. There is no clear cut. There is no clear cut. Decision like oh we recognize and ug we don't recognize this embassy No, because they also care for the ambassador reciting in Myanmar because the ambassador has been there since people I think it's since the time of Dong Soo Ji, because he handed over the credentials to her to win the president. So if something happens to him if if there's if there's any penalty or some kind of a harsh treatment to the tablet to the Myanmar diplomat in France, the retaliation would given to the French French ambassador in Yangon, and I think they are quite concerned about that. I think all embassies are quite concerned about it.
Host 35:00
Yeah, I've heard similarly. And in the case of the French ambassador and Myanmar, I've heard that he's really been one of the most outspoken critics of the regime, even and supporters of the democracy movement, even while still serving as an ambassador there. How much do you know about his activities and and the stance that he's taken there and younger of
Lucine 35:24
before the coup, and the early days after the coup. In my impression, he underestimated the impact of the brutality and the unlawful acts by the junta. But then I explained to him, many things, including the need to provide are to be because we foresee that the Civil War, or so called the PDF against the military council, would come to the country one day, although at the time, we cannot figure out in what kind of institution would be formed. But gradually, we see that the PDFs were formed. But at that stage, he was not very convinced that the result of the coup would be so negative. But more months, after moments, some moments that he discovered, and he realized that things are not going well. So I think he's very helpful and standing, for the end, he stands for the activists. And he's very outspoken because he sees things, how it happened before him. And he himself went out and welcomed the demonstrators, right in front of the embassy. Think he's one of the rare diplomats who went out and welcomed those demonstrators, personally.
Host 37:39
So going back to the question of Myanmar embassies around the world, I wonder if you're aware of any one serving ambassador or otherwise, who is working at a Myanmar embassy somewhere in the world and openly supporting the democratic movement and the and not standing for the regime or stop not really happening? Or people either silent or supporting the military?
Lucine 38:09
And my messages,
Host 38:11
and right ambassadors or other high ranking staff?
Lucine 38:17
I don't see anyone except for which are more drawn from UN or eu s the UN representative of Myanmar? No,
Host 38:29
no, no. So he is the only one that really stands out as having really broken from what the military did. Can you for those listeners who might not be aware of him and how significant this moment was, can you tell us who Trump is and what exactly he did that put them on the map?
Lucine 38:49
on at the moment, he spoke about Myanmar, on his, at his very first speech at the UN, we were thrilled, and we were really touched by his response. And we were so much encouraged to see that someone very important and high ranking like him, supported the democratic movements and the people of Myanmar. And we didn't expect that a very ordinary diplomat in his during his career, because he was not a very outstanding person when I was in the service, so But gradually he reached her to that position. And, and that was due to a promotions given during almost asuci and women's time. I think you really felt that he should do something for us because in the past you He was known as a very quiet but very kind person.
Host 40:10
And after that happened, I remember some writers speculating that that will go down is one of the more important moments in United Nations history. It was a very emotional speech he gave in the United Nations supporting the democracy movement for something that has been that significant to looking at the historical context of the speech that was made. Did it really have any impact? Since making that talk has has did it result in anything that substantial we can look at that might not have happened if he hadn't have taken that stance?
Lucine 40:48
Oh, yes, of course, it is a turning point for energy for PD for all of us. So because it is like very, because he's in a very important position, and a person at that position is on the side of the democratic movement, then it is not nothing else, but the most encouraging thing for all of us. Because he is placed at a very pivotal role. And he's playing for us on our side.
Host 41:46
Now, another significant event that happened in the diplomatic world happened last year at the Myanmar Embassy in London. Can you share a bit about what happened there and why it was significant.
Lucine 41:59
shows I'm in the then ambassador, was also a person who was sitting on the fence. He did not observe the Syrian movement. But he and not only that, he's also very close to the he he's also from the military group. He was not the career diplomat. But anyhow, he had been serving and UK for some time. And he wanted to continue as his that is the impression we got, because we don't really know what his feelings are. But we had a feeling that he wanted to continue his service as the ambassador. And but at the same time, he didn't follow the CDM movement. But when we heard when he heard that the military attache, would be replaced, as the ambassador, then he started the CDM movement. And it was then that he was he was locked out from the embassy. And not many people pity him. As a reaction of his situation there.
Host 43:28
It was the pro military people in the Embassy who locked him out of his office while he was at lunch. And what what did the How did the London police or government respond to this? What what happened when there's this kind of internal strife at an embassy, what is the proper response of what the host country could or should do?
Lucine 43:50
Because those country has the duty to protect the diplomat. So I think the London Police controls the mob, and the curious the curiosity of the people who gathered around the embassy and I think they did not. But when I saw the footage of the video clips, they did not break through the doors of the embassy. But London police just tried not to try not to have a public order at that place.
Host 44:44
And what's the status of that? That Ambassador now?
Lucine 44:48
He's still there. He's still there. So
Host 44:51
he was locked out temporarily, but then he was able to go back and retake control.
Lucine 44:57
I have no other information on London. But it's it is like a parallel ambassador, the military appointed military attache, who is named as the ambassador and Jos. Amin was named by who was not who was accredited by women, democratic government. I have no other information on that.
Host 45:23
Why it's, I suppose it must be really difficult and really confusing for a lot of these diplomats, who many of whom came through the democratic period and the NLD. And we're representing the country in that capacity following in the period of the democratic transition. And then you have a military regime that illegally takes over power, and declares itself, the new rulers, but are not seen legitimate by anyone in the country, they violated democratic process. And they're also not seeing legitimate as most countries outside with the exception of someone like Russia, Belarus, China, etc. And so these diplomats, I imagine it must be a somewhat confusing situation for them to be in where they are still representing the country as a whole. But this question of legitimacy of who actually is controlling it, and thereby who controls the country is also the official messenger of of through the embassies and the diplomats that that are representing them? And and so it just it kind of, as someone who hasn't really spent a lot of time in diplomatic circles, it makes me wonder what happens when these diplomats around the world find themselves in that position? And what how they, where they're supposed to put their allegiances to what how they make that decision?
Lucine 46:51
Yes, that is a very good question. And and this is the question we've been asking among ourselves over and over again. And we want, we don't understand why the entire world, especially the diplomatic countries do not recognize National Unity, Unity, Unity Government, and ug, and why they are still acknowledging the military council in one way or the other. What we heard as the explanation from certain diplomats we've met is that because there's no territorial occupation by an ug, and I think it is the most unreasonable answer, because how can one imagine the new G to occupy the territory because once they come, go back into the territory, they will be arrested, and they will be executed? They can only be the government in exam. That is the only excuse we always hear, like, oh, there's no territorial occupation, of course now. So it is like a tug of war between energy. And we use you may see that Zima on the Ministry of Foreign Minister for Foreign Affairs of energy has been repeatedly demanding for the recognition.
Host 48:40
This issue of territory is really interesting on a couple of levels. So one thing dimension is that it is not true to say that the N ug or you want to say the Allied Forces, the EAA owes the PDFs, however you want to call that coalition or different anti military groups. It's not a true statement to say that they do not hold ground, they do not hold territory, there are constantly statistics coming up showing how much territory they actually control. And I guess you can define what control is, but in some of those cases, the PDFs and by extension, the new G control some territory to the extent that they are able to have schools and other functions that they carry out. And the percentage is very any I've heard anywhere from 33 to 66%. Just a number in there, but it's it's not a correct statement to say that they don't hold territory in the whole of Myanmar if you want to say they don't hold cities or they don't hold capitals. Okay, that's fair. But they do hold territory. Yes.
Lucine 49:49
They do is why we are not very pleased with the international community's reaction on Myanmar. We are not we are not Heavy with a with a reaction by the international community it is like the international community is letting the whole nation vanish by neglecting us in different ways.
Host 50:27
And the second part of that thing about territory, which doesn't really make sense or is problematic, because the corollary of that statement, and they don't hold territory is really an implicit suggestion that by hook by hook or by crook by violence, or any other means, if you or really any group were to take and hold that territory, then you would be legitimate by virtue of having that territory in hand. And so over time, we've seen PDF groups, and yo Yos and ug leadership began to realize that rather than following the normal procedures of trying to build alliances, or talk to international partners build coalitions that they simply need to find a way by any means necessary to take this territory. Of course, Myanmar is not getting any support, nothing like Ukraine goes, they've had to manage everything by themselves against the professional grade military, which sources from China and Russia and other places. And they have been put in a corner where they have had to rely on untrained citizenry, to be able to try to retake and then hold land in the hope that if they can do so then perhaps they might receive some legitimacy. But the problem with this is that as soon as because all of these negotiations, discussions, ask for support, RTP, etc, because everything has failed. So devastatingly and dramatically. They have been forced to take up an armed resistance and to be able to, to to resist the military and protect their, their communities in this way. And as that armed resistance has begun to build, then there's been quite a bit of criticism for well, both sides are doing this and and we don't want to see a resort to violence on either end. And so there's this, it seems to me and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on your position of having been in diplomatic circles, there seems to be this contradictory kind of attitude where on one hand, it's well, if you if you taken control land, then you have some kind of legitimacy. But then you have this mixed message, on the other hand, saying that violence should never be resorted to for any reason, and that you should try to let diplomacy and conversation and negotiation try to succeed and that there's been growing concern that by by any side that tries to that is, is not being non violent and never. And so yeah, what do you think about that?
Lucine 53:12
Okay. First, I will answer the second part. That is about a non violence and negotiations. So if you look back, the coordinate the chronicles of our 2021 we call it, spring revolution. In the first days and months, the demonstrators were protesting peacefully on the streets, they were you will even even see the images of demonstrators kneeling before the armed soldiers giving flowers or pleading them in a nice way. And they went out on the streets in different groups of communities showing the just showing their their their strong suggestion of, you know, strong opposition's or strong opposition of the military rule. But gradually, when the days went by the military group started by shooting with sniper hands too, girls and later on to the into the crowd, more killings followed and as a human being, you can you will, you will never be able to discuss at a time a peaceful discussion is out of the question when the other party started using aggressive arms. So Everybody, even though it is a norm, that negotiations on the table should take place, nobody would accept that, you know, it is time to negotiate, because the time to negotiate has passed, because of the the breach of trust from the military side, it shows the active actions from the military showed that we can never trust them. And the time for dialogue is over. So, even though they are practices, like very classic conventional practices like discussing through ASEAN and UN and so on. So, if you will, you also saw that, me online, I did not respect all the five points proposed by ASEAN until now. So, discussing discussion or dialogue is out of question, the only the only option for the people is to retaliate through the guns. So, we cannot stop PDF to fight against the military regime. And it is I think it is the only language that the military would understand. It is, of course, not complying or not in conformity to any diplomatic relations or to diplomatic norms.
Host 57:06
And these democratic forces have been forced in the corner where this is the only way to respond. And yet there's been virtually no outside support and very little sympathy or understanding for why they're doing what they're doing.
Lucine 57:23
No sympathy from the international community.
Host 57:26
It seems to me, right, there hasn't been,
Lucine 57:30
it's true. No, sympathy, no empathy, I would say. And they, they don't care how many people are caught? How many people are killed a day, even though we've been sharing news and we've been crying out in many ways around the world? No, they will just let us for example, in places like New York or or in Tokyo or Singapore, they would let us do whatever demonstrations even in France, they would let us do that demonstrations. expression of our feelings, but that's it.
Host 58:21
So what do you think it would take to break through this is a question I often ask myself, you know, to, I feel like we're in this echo chamber, where those of us who care about what's happening in Myanmar, continue to talk to each other over and over on loop. And we need to break out of that we need to talk to people outside of the community of those who care about Myanmar and reach people who should care about human rights and democracy and progressive values everywhere in the world, to try to find an angle to bring to them what's happening, why it's important, whether that's government or media or different progressive groups. It's what I've been trying to do through this podcast or through other means. But it just seems like no matter how terrible the story and not just the stories, but the pictures, the videos, the testimonial, the interview, everything else. All of this information is there, whether it's documented, documented from human rights organizations, whether it's told through a personal story or narrative, whether it's a shocking or cruel video that shows an act of atrocity taking place. It just seems like it is so hard to break through for and when one does break through. It's only for when something really terrible happens. It might just be for a few hours or however short a new cycle is these days, and then it moves on. So what do you think it takes to try to break through that and really make this be an issue that people care about and sustain for a longer period of time?
Lucine 59:48
Oh, people, I would answer in a different way. The people would be happy to see that the perpetrators are taken to justice. And the only justice that can take action is through the international courts. We've been we had been very hopeful, when last year we had, we heard that the Supreme Court of Argentina is going to open a case against me online and so on. So why I don't know why and where that procedure is going, and where how far has it come? We have no idea about it, we just heard some sparks of hope. And then it went silent. So people will be very happy and will be relieved to, because they are, it's like they are holding their breath while they are being drowned. So we don't know how long people can stand to the pressure. In addition to the economic and child pressures, the inflation everything, they are living, nothing else, but with hope. So that ray of hope can be given and only through the international justice system. It will be the only solution to save many lives from being killed and and millions of dollars or chats being spent on supporting find arms for PDF and many lives killed. On PDF site, the sooner the sooner the the justice has been brought to the perpetrators the better for the country.
Host 1:02:01
And going back to this issue of territory, it also reminds me of this recent controversial statement by Dr. Sasa or actually, I should say it's something he said that became controversial, which was where he referenced in a Zoom meeting that if they were to if the democratic forces were to take over Yangon, the guns would come raining down and that that statement, I should say it's a alleged statement, because I don't know if there's a recording, I think it's been reported, but I'm not sure exactly what he said in the context, but that's how it's been relayed. And it's been criticized from a number of different angles, one for being for for promoting an armed struggle to try to take a city and saying that that once they do support would come it's also been criticized by those in the PDFs for for being naive in terms of believing that international support would actually come or clinic or come. But what are your thoughts on on that statement and the reaction that it's caused?
Lucine 1:03:05
I think it's absurd, because and it is, it has no grounds. So, no, no, no, because as you said, it has not been voice recorded. And we never know whether it is authentic or not. But we have come this far and we have seen that there is no international support, especially to support in terms of arms and ammunitions. We cannot. So it shows that we should not expect that the Yangon once the PDF take hold over Yangon, there will be more international support on arms and ammunitions. I don't think it is irrelevant.
Host 1:04:02
But it does seem that there's this hypocrisy coming from the west that is supporting, at least as they say it is essential is that is said again, is that the West is supporting through their voice democratic institutions and democratic democratic processes. And yet, when this military is illegally seized power, and there is an attempt to have a way to use these international agencies and ideals of democracy to to try to find a solution. There's complete silence and a lack of support. And, and that the only way to get that support or to be seen as legitimate is to bypass these democratic institutions and processes which these countries hold so dear in which they spend so much time talking about and to just physic We take the land, and it just becomes this brute action that needs to be taken when those democratic ideals have all been shown to really to dissipate and float away.
Lucine 1:05:15
It's a very confusing situation maybe you have read in very recently from the Norwegian journal News Journal about the misbehavior of the Norwegian Embassy in Yangon, it shows that the Norwegian Embassy or Norwegian, Norway is known to be the country very helpful to the democratic movements, that is the country which has the Nobel Peace Prize words to the to the people in the world and we have how we have had high respect for Norway. But when we we saw that, in that article written by the Norwegian news that the embassy itself has been using the premises of a low tear Hotel, which is owned by the military generals son, who himself is also a military general on key road and spending a lot of dollars on renting the place, we cannot understand and we don't know who to rely on or who to who to ask for help. When a country whose which is known for very democratic Woo's which is known for a high value of democracy is behaving like this. And even Australia, maybe you can go back and check the Australia and the Australian Embassy. At the same time, Australia has been welcoming and giving visas to those who fled the country and also to the skilled workers because knowing that the country is deteriorating in terms of economy and job portunity They employ a lot of people from Myanmar and give work visas. But at the same time, the embassy Australian embassy is using millions of dollars at that alota Hotel. So it so it is very difficult to understand the reaction of the diplomatic missions and the government back home in the country. Luckily, France is not behaving like this. America is not behaving like this. I'm a no. British, I don't know really because the British emperor had been asked to leave the country because the step down the level from the ambassador to charge it affair. So big countries like Australia and now we became under our attention as the black for our for us is a blacklist country because once they start using 1000s I think millions of dollars into this hotel. And how can we trust
Host 1:08:45
them? And then there's Japan that
Lucine 1:08:47
invited Oh, Japan. Oh, yes. Oh, no one. Yeah, yeah.
Host 1:08:55
Yeah, tell us what Japan did.
Lucine 1:08:57
Oh, Japan has been hosting the military trainees. Still, even though the Japanese Januarius has been detained. These are still holding the military trainings to the Myanmar military personnel in their country. And all the activists including those Myanmar living in Japan, are protesting against the government not to receive the or to send the military personnel back home they do not care. And Japan is just interested in the economy and their business and their money. That's all that is the slogan. The PDFs or the or the democratic movement used to say Then we only have us, for us
Host 1:10:06
and understand why,
Lucine 1:10:08
yeah. We don't know who to turn our back on.
Host 1:10:19
And you reference these Burmese who are living abroad in countries around the world. Just as we talked about the somewhat confusing situation for diplomats who leave Myanmar representing what they think is the rightful leadership at one time, and then that leadership is replaced. And they have to figure out how to navigate that way. You also have a number of Burmese who are abroad for all kinds of reasons whether their families have settled there, or they're studying or working something temporarily, whether they're exiles or refugees, whether they left since the coup because they were in danger, but but one of the problems that's been developing in the last few months we've been hearing quite a bit about is the challenge of Burmese whose passports have expired and they need to go into the Burmese embassy to get new passports and many in many cases, those are no longer being issued and so, many Burmese are becoming stateless. Yes, tell us a bit about what you know about this,
Lucine 1:11:19
oh, I have heard that the embassy the embassies around the world received instruction from the military council not to issue or extend new passports or the validity of the passport to certain people and it amounts to 80,000 persons. This is this is the rumor I heard and back home in Myanmar the passport renewal or the delivery the issuance of new passports are first filtered through the names that are already listed in the immigration office for the Ministry of Home of Home Affairs. First, if you and nobody is going through the proper procedures, they are also they are all going through the brokers. The broker workers are the ones who would bribe the officer in charge of the passport delivery and at the passport office, the officers would be in rotation nobody would be sitting at the same desk for long because they will be taking a lot of bribery and they would be in connection with the brokers. So, whoever the officer will be will be there. The broker would bribe the officer and he would ask more money from the from the applicant as per applicant. For example, in the few weeks earlier, the brokerage was like 33 50,000 chats, now, it has gone up to 500,000 chats. And if you apply for the passport, the first thing they would check is whether your name is in the list and it is like a Feasibility Test. If I want to apply for the passport, then they will say okay, let me check if your name is there. And before my name was checked, I have to give all my personal data has my name my national identity number my address my family list. So, whether before I was given the positive or negative answer, they have already got all my information
Host 1:14:15
right. So they're becoming spy agencies abroad.
Lucine 1:14:20
Yes. And when you apply or when you extend your passport validity in the Myanmar embassy the procedure is more or less the same. You have to fill up a form and you have to provide all your personal data's and then they will reply that okay your name is not in the list. So we will provide you with a passport and please come back on so and so. So insert date. That is what they will do. And they will answer now.
Host 1:14:59
Yeah, this has become and quite dangerous for many Burmese living abroad and not knowing how their embassy is trying to report on them. And in one case, I have a Burmese friend who's in Thailand now and is completely unable to extend her passport which is expiring and so has to fly back to Yangon and do it there but then obviously has to take undertake all kinds of safety precautions of not knowing. Obviously, when you go back to Myanmar now as a Burmese citizen, you're you're there's no guarantee of your basic human rights or safety. And so this income quite perilous.
Lucine 1:15:35
There's no guarantee, either whether you will be issued a passport or not. For example, I have a friend who asked for the private keys. She is not at all involved in any politics. But she just wanted to have a valid passport so that she can leave the country whenever she wants. And she applied for the passport. With the bribery, they increased the rate of bribery from 10,000 to 500,000 sets. And yet she was given the answer that oh yes, your passport has been approved. And we know your passport number already. But the passport. The document has not been given to her yet. So until and unless she received the passport in her hand, she cannot be relieved. Whether she would be really having the passport or not.
Host 1:16:42
I've heard there's been some talk with me in UG of trying to remedy the situation by issuing their own passports. Is that something that's even possible?
Lucine 1:16:51
Yes. It depends on which N ug or representative office is saying like some I think very outstanding and UT office is in Czech, Czech Republic, because the Czech government is very supportive energy and they let whatever energy do in terms of administration and the formalities. So the Myanmar exiles in Czech are quite independent, quite free to do whatever they want to do.
Host 1:17:41
So that's one country out of several 100 in the world. Yes. Yes. Burmese living have some kind of guarantee. But for those living in other places, can it's I don't know how
Lucine 1:17:53
it depends on the host government like in Japan, it will be very difficult. France, I don't think they will be given the they would have the power to issue like issue like passports or any other travel documents or equivalent to passport. But us? I don't think so. It depends on each government.
Host 1:18:26
Right. So in many cases, these people just simply become stateless. They have a choice of either trying to go back to Myanmar or disrupting their life and perhaps family and occupation livelihood, where they are going into a place where there's no guarantee for safety anywhere, or becoming an illegal stateless in some way or depending on the host country, hoping grain they can apply for some kind of, of status where they're able to continue your life there. So this is really an enormous difficulty on 10s of 1000s.
Lucine 1:19:01
Yes, for example, those in Sweden were I know some people were already in Sweden, and they are given a special document. They are legally allowed to stay legally in Sweden, but they cannot travel outside of Sweden. It's not refugee but it's not a refugee status but something like a legal state permit status. And same in it's the same in France, I think they are not given because, you know, there are some people who arrived after the spring revolution and they were given special status. We were given social benefits, especially social benefits. D are not given for Ah passport or any other travel document, but they are not considered as refugee either. It's a very delicate and complicated administrative matter as long as the host country is okay with the status of that person who is living in the country, the person can stay freely and legally and enjoying all the rights but they may not be able to go back to Myanmar. They may not be travel to other country
Host 1:20:44
right, that's, that's tough. We've talked about the Myanmar embassies around the world. Another thing that's cropping up our NDG offices, these are not so much diplomatic institutions, they're certainly not recognized as embassies. But the N ug has been able to establish different offices and a handful of countries around the world where they've appointed official representatives of the N ug to be able to represent their interests. What do you know about this?
Lucine 1:21:14
The new GE representative office offices around the world, like in Japan, Korea, Australia, Czech, France, and I'm not sure about us, because USS Utah Moton and other prominent figures. So summer energy offices are very active and quite strong in terms of their capacity to reach out to the government, I think the strongest is from Czech, because of the host countries are flexibility and it's welcoming gestures to words a Myanmar democratic movement and Australia, France not so, in the past Yes, but gradually now, it has faded away. It was just holding some occasional gathering of Myanmar people and living in France, or for some activities to show the support or to protest against certain causes. Because the problem is, or the weakness is that energy could not finance those offices and the representatives, those representatives had to find their own way to survive and to run the office.
Host 1:23:14
This again, points to this hypocrisy of places like Australia or Norway, renting very expensive hotels in Yangon were millions of dollars go towards the regime, while single representatives and single offices in those countries, those democratic countries are not able to be maintained for energy representatives because there is simply no money that's not even to touch upon the millions or perhaps billions. I don't remember the exact number of frozen money in the US that the from the NLD that the N ug is not even able to access
Lucine 1:23:49
No, no. It's a shame. It's a real shame.
Host 1:24:04
So concerning the situation with just the diplomatic circles, looking at embassies and official channels, this has been mostly what we've talked about for this full chat just because you're in those circles, you have that information.
Lucine 1:24:19
Oh yes, because the diplomatic missions play most important roles in liberating a country from the oppression or pulling the country down into oppression. Or it is like the I would like to quote Nelson Mandela's famous statement like those who are ignorant about the oppression are also those who are silent in terms of oppression
Host 1:25:00
And that's why it's been so valuable to be able to talk to you about the behind the scenes of the diplomatic missions to better understand how these mechanisms are actually working for those of us who've never had any interaction with that. So with that in mind, is there any anything else that about these diplomatic missions or processes or anything else on that topic that you think would be interesting to share?
Lucine 1:25:30
Oh, sorry, I just want to correct? Yes, it's from Desmond Tutu. If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. Yes, it's true. So the diplomatic circle can play a very vital role in helping shape the country's development, or its poverty or its misfortune, whatever. First, I would like to say that the I mean, the head of the mission, or the whole diplomatic mission, the personality, the personalities are recruited in the mission should be according to my experience, especially those who are in the political groups. I'm not talking about the administrators like the other, you know, tool level diplomats, but the top level diplomats should be at least ethical, first thing ethical, and shouldn't be respectful. Because if they are not ethical, their reports towards the government would not not be genuine. And this is what I have also reminded to close on Suji, myself. Some diplomats are not ethical, and they are not hardworking, they rely on the the staff members to give them reports, because they have to write reports to their ministry and to the government regularly, and the content of the reports can vary from the authenticity or the closeness to the truth, to the totally distorted ideas. For example, I have suggested to Sensoji that she should check on the the diplomatic heads up the diplomatic missions, and the and the fun and how they function, their responsibilities. Because, for example, for if the diplomatic staff goes to a place a crisis place, then he will take notes and report back to the mission or to the head of mission. It may vary. If the head of mission himself goes there, and Texas extra note and report back to the mission, because sometimes he's maybe so lazy or too busy to go to that place. And he would rather delegate one of his staffs, just to go there and take notes. And sometimes, or not, sometimes many times that it makes a huge difference. Depending on the on the preoccupied ideas of that person. That person may be related or in, in relation to certain people author of the place of the crisis place, or he or she may have some personal sentiments on this crisis. And all these things can change the content of the report. And this report is very crucial for the government to decide on how to react to the situation.
Host 1:29:43
I think this is all underlying the importance that yes, its diplomatic missions and the people in those roles serve especially in the current moment. Yes,
Lucine 1:29:56
it is. I'm not talking about the current moment but for the I have gone through many incidents, that these these contents of the reports make the difference on the decision of the government.
Host 1:30:15
I see. You said something really powerful a few minutes ago that the diplomatic missions, protocols, circles, these have an enormous responsibility to play in being able to prevent or at least diminish oppression in other countries. And so that does lead to looking at the present moment looking at Myanmar, in my view, and I I'm not I'm I don't have privileged access to behind the scenes. But in my view, it seems that on the diplomatic front, it's just been an enormous, colossal failure. We've seen hypocrisy we've seen in action, we've seen undue criticism, a complete lack of support. So from my standpoint of not really having the inside track, admittedly, but from my standpoint, I would venture to say that these diplomatic circles which have the ability to prevent or diminish oppression, have been a massive colossal failure in the case of Myanmar since the coup, would you say that I'm being unfair? Or would you agree with that?
Lucine 1:31:25
Especially when I talk about the diplomatic circle, it covers everyone like China, Japan, Russia, the Western bloc, everyone, yes.
Host 1:31:51
So you would assess they've been derelict in the responsibility? Yes. Is there anything that can be done about that, is there any hope for change or for improvement?
Lucine 1:32:04
Yeah, the when they know that, they have to they are dancing with the germs of the governments. So, it depends, it goes back to if it is for you, as it goes back to Washington. If it is for France, it goes back to Harry. So, if the government or the President is not showing interest in this affair, then they would be happy spending some time just reporting regularly and getting the very high paid salary and spending time in Myanmar going back with a with a fat, big fat pocket of you know salary that will be the case. But if the government shows interest in in certain countries, then they would have to work really hard to to be in line with the government. So it is it is not the diplomats it is not only on one side at the same time, as I said, it is the it is like two hands clapping together. The diplomats on one hand and the government on the other hand, if the government shows interest in the country, then the diplomat has to work hard. And at the same time, if the diplomat works really hard to impress, or to give the impact his views on certain countries, then I think it will give some significant impact on the government as well. Because he's the one staying on the ground of the of the country at this time of the situation or the time of the crisis. And he is the one with the eyewitness I would say and he could say everything back to his country.
Host 1:34:32
Right, well, it's distressing. I'm at a loss for words, I was about to say let's hope for improvement or for a positive change. But those words just seem incredibly hollow in meaningless to say, in light of, of the kind of failures and hypocrisy we've seen, so I don't really know what to say.
Lucine 1:34:56
Yeah, but I think the world has changed. From 90, what I see now is the world has changed. The world's trend has changed from 1980. During from the years like 1988, to 2000, something to the present era, because everywhere I look, starting from that COVID and vaccines and everything the world is so money obsessed. Every country, especially the rich countries, Japan, US, France, whatever, you know, in my opinion, they support Ukraine, because the whole European bloc, is scared that the war from Ukraine would spread to the rest of Europe. And that is why they support Ukraine, at the cost of Ukraine. And the other countries like Japan, far from Europe, a rich country, they support the Western bloc, because he wants to be in good business with the Western bloc, and he wants to be protected for himself from Russia, from China. That's it. And ASEAN, some countries like Malaysia and Indonesia, they are speaking up about about the democratic movements. And the failure from me online site not complying with the ASEAN is five points. Only it it only ends up in the air. And it's not substantial. Because they just wanted to uphold the legitimacy of ASEAN, that's it. Otherwise, ASEAN the community as in community would be just just be sending to the namesake. Just to save their name, they are saying something I think, and some other countries like Malaysia, Brunei, or or Singapore once or twice, yes. Hi, no, not at all.
Host 1:37:42
So what do you think could happen reasonably that could make an impact and could shift things for the positive? Are there? Are there actions on a big or small level that would make you hopeful?
Lucine 1:38:02
To be honest, we are we are hoping that the proposed elections that will be convened by me online in early 2023 would not take place. And that nobody would go and vote. And even some polls would be destroyed by PDF or other forces or by the people itself, themselves. And we are depending a lot on the donation to PDF. But it is not enough that we all know. And I don't know what energies agenda is. Because energy is quite far away from all of us. Because they have they are just releasing their statements. But we don't know the agenda. The people who don't know the agenda it is quite difficult to say at this moment. What would come up in your future?
Host 1:39:41
I see. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us. I just want to refocus back on you and your experience here of Burmese who has come to find the second home in France. And I just have a question about that experience as you come to me Make a home in a community in France and you've gone from one culture to the other. And I'm just curious what the experience has been like to be in a different culture and country and community like France, and what you might say about the differences and the similarities between French society and Burmese society that you've been able to discover?
Lucine 1:40:19
Oh, the first thing is because I, I think, because France is, is not a stranger to me. So that is one reason. And the another reason is because I have some contacts here. And that makes me easier to come here. And but when I came here, it's, unlike the past where I went, I was involved in the decent work. I felt the discrimination either French, French community, because I sense that because I look like a Chinese. So do them. Chinese are the ones who brought the COVID who are exploiting the economy. And they did, they don't seem to like me. And another thing is, it in France has a huge community of African people. And those African peoples dominate a lot of areas in France. And for them, I think it's safer for us for a safer than us, although they live in community. They speak French, they have. And they have a huge community. They have big families here. And they have their own community. So the native French, they're not those people. But for us, like yellowscan people, they would look down on us or they would be would be racist. They think that like Asians are here for working as you know, domestics are the are the low paid jobs. They started I find them very different. And the time I was here as the diplomat because, yeah, I mean, in general, not to particular persons. Those who know me very well, of course, we have a very good relations. Yes.
Host 1:43:03
So it's been a bit hard for you to adjust after the coup. Yes. I'm sorry to hear that. That's highlights another challenge with how the coup has been impacting impacting Burmese everywhere, inside and outside the
Lucine 1:43:22
country? Yes, yes. I'm sorry, if I have some interruptions in between. Like, some, sometimes I run out of vocabulary, and it's kind of, I'm also suffering from, you know, mental health problems. When I, this is my personal personal experience. When I first came here, the place I lived, was near to the airport. So quite often during the day, I would hear planes flying over the sky. But when and where and they are low flying. And I heard the the planes flying over me and I would think of Oh no, where are they going to bomb the villages? Or where are they going to bomb? In fact, I was just traumatized. And I had to tell myself, Oh, no, no, I'm in France, they are just commercial planes. They are just going their own way. You are not. I'm not not supposed to worry for anything. And if I have to tell to myself again and again, but every time I heard the planes flying and I had the same reaction in the first place, so it is not very good. And another thing is that when I see people you know, enjoying life Like, very normal in the apart with the children having everyday life, I cannot stand the sight of them for nothing. Because I would be thinking about the kids back in Myanmar where they have to run for their lives with when they died and when. And there is no chance to go to school. And so so you know. And when when we see the people last year, especially protesting for no vaccination against COVID. And they would be shouting at Liberty, liberty, which means liberty, freedom. I just wanted to send them to Myanmar. When shall for liberty, you know, they are making a big issue for just for the vaccines.
Host 1:46:00
Yeah, yeah, I feel the same way. And that's that was what led to my question about how to break through as I see these so called progressive groups advocating for different causes and rights in the United States. And, and they just don't have the finger for an awareness or concern about what's happening that is multitudes order worse in Myanmar. And I start to feel this growing frustration and even fury against the hypocrisy not of these big organ, big international organizations, which I'd never really expected. Much more of I'm, of course, very disappointed. But the hypocrisy of different Western progressive groups that are espousing these ideals and values, and continuing to rally online about whatever cause or microaggressions, or triggers that they want to promote in terms of advocating or highlighting some kind of victimization in Western society, that that is so outrageous and atrocious. And yet these same groups are just not lifting a finger to have the slightest interest or awareness or concern for things that are just atrocious over there. And it just, it's made me really not take any of this seriously. And just think like, how do you even dare to pretend like you care about these things? When this is happening right here, you have so much access to information and you're just standing by? Yeah,
Lucine 1:47:31
yeah. It's very sad. Yeah.
Host 1:47:36
Well, with that, I thank you so much for joining us. And taking the time to talk about these topics, we've been able to have some insight into the importance in the world of diplomatic circles. And it's been very educational for me, I think, also for our listeners. And thank you for also sharing about your personal journey. I'm I'm sorry that so many of us are going through this now. Thank you very much, two hours with us.
Lucine 1:48:02
Thank you very much to you also, for giving me the chance to talk to.
Host 1:48:19
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1:51:48
Mommy Lavie? The sky is the night NIDA annuities Dima yeah nice very nice Yeah