Transcript: Episode #121: A Vipassanā Journey (Bonus Shorts)
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Steve and Kati, which was released on September 7, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:09
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Steve Jarand 01:41
Hi, I'm Steve Gerrans from Canada.
Kati Schweitzer 01:44
And I'm cutting Schweitzer from Germany.
Steve Jarand 01:48
We're here to talk about a trip that we made to Myanmar in 2016 as part of a world trip. We didn't get a honeymoon really did we? Well, but that was kind of that was kind of it. We took almost a year to go a few places in the world. So to sort of the honeymoon and, and the Dhamma part was in Myanmar.
Kati Schweitzer 02:13
Yeah. And actually, it turned out it was, for me, it was it was my favorite country of the whole trip. Like we were planning to go there for a month. And then we left the country got another visa came back in and it was kind of it's like the de risked memory of the whole trip actually come from Myanmar.
Steve Jarand 02:32
Yeah, a lot of nice little surprises. And, and we did a meditation course while there and did try and check in on the monastery light. So comes from Yeah, I had, I had been meditating for quite a while and actually my first course in the wasn't going to tradition. And my first course happened to be in Bodhgaya. And knowing nothing about Buddhism, or any kind of meditation, I just happen to be there and do my first course. And after the after the course the assistant teacher said she was from Bombay. And she said, being here I want to I want to see some of the sacred Buddhist sites or and but Gaia and were there any of these students, they weren't very many of us who wanted to come. And so a few of us crammed into a taxi with her and spent a whole day seeing these incredible Buddhist sites. And only later on did I find the connection to to Myanmar and the doors sure swung open to more sacred sites when we were on our trip
Host 03:48
Yeah, so in your time in Myanmar, you went once and then went out of the country and came back in because you wanted to get even more out of it. What stands out from your time there?
Kati Schweitzer 03:58
Well, so much like I mean, for me the most the most wonderful thing were really the people I thought it was just they were so like, lovely and and gentle and naturally friendly. And it was so inspiring to see how they're like they seem so genuinely happy and open. So we have i don't know i floods of little memories of just people being super open and friendly and grabbing us and giving us food you know, they have so little in a way they gave us like they're constantly giving things making presents laughing giggling asking questions
Steve Jarand 04:44
for humility there just seems to come naturally to a point where you know everybody no matter what age eats just seems very cute because they're smiling and at all, at all distances like and, and also also not being very good. I'm awkward are concerned about social, you know, social issues or standards. So they would just, they would just look at us and laugh at me something about us that was odd or new for them. And they would just laugh and laugh into each other's shoulders. And it was in such a, was in such a kind of natural way that you couldn't, you couldn't really feel offended or strange about it.
Kati Schweitzer 05:24
One time we got laughed at because Steve is 10 years older than me, and I guess I look younger. He looks younger than his age, I look at older his age, and I look younger than my age, I don't know. But anyway, they found they thought they were that we were father and daughter. And then they found out that we were not. And they were just laughing their head off. They couldn't believe it was very funny. And then they painted
Steve Jarand 05:56
sandalwood.
Host 06:01
So you went not just for tourism, but you went to want to deepen your meditation. And we met when you were over there. So I knew something of where you're going, who you're meeting and some of the impact at the time. But looking at it from the standpoint of people to the two of you who are quite engaged and interested in wanting to pursue a meditation practice and coming to Myanmar to want to develop further into the teachings, see how they're integrated holistically into the society learn from monastic life, as you just referenced that you spent some time in monasteries, what was the experience stepping into that Dhamma environment? And how was it different from those kinds of Buddhist or meditative environments that you would have been in many times previous to Myanmar?
Steve Jarand 06:49
Well, for people who, who know the Quaker tradition, it's, it's tailored, much for for Westerners, who, who try to step away from any religious inclinations of of a practice like this. So we were, I was really brought into it, just on the personal practice, and just on, you get out of it, you know, in terms of hard work, what you put into it, and nothing about faith and nothing about trusting, you know, expecting just because you know, or trust someone, or they're in authority, that something good should happen to you, you know, in fact, I remember being at dama Jyoti, the CO anchor of a pastor center in Yangon. And one of the signs in the walls was was referencing this element or this this part of one of the discourses of the Buddha that said, Don't believe anything you say, it doesn't matter if they're your teacher, it doesn't matter if they're high authority in your society, it doesn't matter if it's the Buddha, just see what happens when you experience when you practice it. And it's, it was this long message that that's, that really gets ingrained. So when we went there, and, and we saw how much it was gushing in the society, both in people's own lives and how much people how many people been ordained for longer, short, shorter periods, and how many, how many Buddhist sites are old and not so old and new, and, and still being constructed all over the place? That was a real, it was kind of an amazing thing, but also a little bit of a shock to see how external it is, compared to on how, how internal we were, we're kind of trained to always look towards, you know, you don't see even people with little idols or shrines, you know, maybe small things to remind them of the the idea of the Buddha but certainly not have to put as the kind of figure who's going to have any kind of power in your own practice. So I, I was both may amazed by that, but also struggled a bit to, to understand what the practice what the practice, the Buddha's essential type of teaching was compared to help people who also came from probably similar traditions that really held the essential teachings of just seeing what's happening and what's passing. But also this life of, you know, continual beliefs and donations and, and getting into the possible magic and the power of enlightened ones. And yeah, I struggled with it but but by the end and I think being there longer it's, it's, I was able to, to understand it. As a culture that's much more rich and complex than just what are what is known about the practice. And that you can go back and forth from one to the other and they can enrich each other this outside and inside and family and community as well involves in as well as a personal practice.
Kati Schweitzer 10:22
I thought it was, in a way, a relief, it was a relief to be in a country where the practice is so much part of everyday life. Because after having traveled in other countries we had, we had sometimes you know, problems to find, like a place where we could meditate during the day or like, we were like, Okay, where can we where can we go and sit? I mean, no problem in Myanmar pagoda everywhere you can, you can sit and meditate everywhere, wherever you want. And then also that you can like some of the of the terms we know from the practice from the meditation, you know, some whatever like, coffee or tea party party or like, there's, there's like words, we know from the practice that we could use with, with the Myanmar people because they know the words as well as we could kind of like a little bit communicate using that language, using Pali basically. Yeah, yeah. And I thought it was really nice to have that kind of common understanding with people or like an even if they meditate in another tradition, that we would sometimes just sit with people who were meditating in their practice, or whatever. And then later, they would maybe come in, we will try to communicate what we are doing what they are doing. And I thought it was really nice to be in a country that's worked so naturally in the culture, but we do worse, in Western countries, will still a bit more exotic in a way.
Steve Jarand 12:03
And they're even doing playing chantings on the bus, rather than true. Rather than like your music. Sometimes there's some of the buses were still playing monks doing chanting. And we can recognize some elements that were that don't have chanting or such as we had heard before, but it was always in a different timbre speed. And so sometimes you couldn't always pick it out. But it was cool to see that integrated and woven into just normal life, like sitting on a bus or, or sitting in your hotel room and hearing a speaker where they were going through the suitcase on in a temple nearby.
Host 12:42
Yeah, those are great memories. And it reminds me of the first time that I ever came to Myanmar and feeling similar thing that I was able to go to pagodas and just practice at any time and not just have a place to practice but not be weird for doing it, you know, and when, when I would be out and about in the US there, there were very few places I could go. Sometimes it'd be parks or something. The weirdest place I ever meditated was a pool side of Las Vegas casino. And we have the security guard came over and said to us, you know, you got because we were on lounge tears by the pool with our eyes closed. It said, you know, you guys can't be sleeping here. We thought we were some kind of riffraff and that our eyes alert and aware and said we're not sleeping. And it was like Star Wars thing like a Jedi mind trick. He kind of repeated back not sleeping. And I said, No, we're going to be leaving soon. And he said, Oh, you're leaving soon and walked away. He continued. But, you know, like in Europe or Mexico, I recall going in churches. But it was in some sense. It was almost like trying subversive and hiding what I was actually doing, because it wasn't really natural. When I when I first started to go to pagodas, it was like, This is what I'm supposed to be doing here. You know, and I'm looking up and seeing find a nice Buddha statue where you can just catch the peaceful expression on the Buddha's face from the right angle, which in the middle of a difficult sitting gives you inspiration needed a certain moment. And, you know, I get up from sitting in and people around and be looking really approvingly and supportively. And I just remember feeling like this is this is this is all I want for it to be in a society where I can practice like this. And of course, once I went to live, I found out that it lived there for as long as I did, it was there was many more layers that beyond that, that I hadn't been aware of, but that initial kind of coming home and familiar pneus of familiarity of, of being able to integrate, integrate the practice in that way and to not have to not have to bring it into a closed space in a closed community but to do it in a society that encouraged and promoted and celebrated that it was it was it just blew me away. It was so remarkable. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering for you as well, you know, you you talked about what it was like to go into that atmosphere, I'm wondering what it was like to come out of it and then go back into the kind of going systems and centers that you were into. Because really, these are just different cultural systems. These are different sets of conditionings. And underlying rules that some that are talked about some that aren't assumptions, whichever group, whichever kind of Dhamma group that you're in. And so as you had some kind of culture shock, going into the Burmese Waney, and stay there all that long, couple months, maybe in some monasteries, but enough to learn something and integrate with their life, when you then went back into going into the blanket system, what did what did you bring with you? What did you What did you carry on? What did you remember? And how was that transition back into that? How was that experience?
Steve Jarand 15:49
Well, it allowed me to, to release some of the some of the preciousness and some of the internal like self imposed rigidity about you know, my personal practice and the way courses are set up to have people focus, there's, there's a lot of rules, and when you're, you know, a new meditator or trying to be a serious meditator, then you really stick to those, and it can kind of seem black and white. But yeah, once once you've seen sort of people living it, and putting it in their daily life and experimenting with different kinds of, you know, devotion, and adding different practices and trying to make it all fit. You see, it's bigger than, you know, just a set of courses, it's, you have to make it work for you. You know, and so I was able to relax some of the some of the strictness about it for myself. I mean, you follow the what happens in the courses, but you just the anxiety about whether it's right or wrong, or what's going to come of it is, it's a bit, it's a bit less. And I can I can also probably equate it with when I was struggling, and thinking, you know, am I going to, am I going to continue with this practice? Again, it came back to? Well, it's my practice, you know, it's it's not about fitting into, to one way or the other. And if I if I continue, it's really because I have found a way to make it work. And because it's mine, because of whatever other standards are involved.
Kati Schweitzer 17:33
Here, I think for me, I I would say I'm, I took some inspiration, like I mean, I didn't really know much about but are anything more than what you learned in the Glinka courses before we went to Myanmar? So what we got in touch with also because of, yeah, what we research are places where you send us to, as I said, I got really some inspiration like some maybe some other angle after practice, or you know, some teacher like we've decided or something like some readings and discourses or like seeing how they are practice is a little bit different from what we do in the courses but also has its value. It helped me Yeah, to get some inspiration from my practice. And also sitting a course in Myanmar. I don't know if the students they are they were so discipline was crazy. Like, I always felt like the slacker because like 10 minutes before the gong, they were in front of the demo Hall. And I'm like the last one kind of coming in just like a minute before the group's hit or something. So sometimes, on courses later, when I set a course in Europe, I was like, I should be a little more Myanmar about this.
Steve Jarand 19:00
And they weren't even they weren't even, you know, serious meditators, they were probably taking a course. Once a year or however, whenever they could, they just, they just slipped into the discipline so easily, it seems.
Host 19:17
Yeah, those are great reflections that it it definitely reminds me thinking of that of the experience of coming into a more structured course where there's it's just a more intensive and intentional atmosphere that's been set up, apart from the life that one is coming from, which may be necessary in the way that those courses were first brought over and carried in western context. But I remember as I started to spend more time in monasteries as a practitioner, the thing that really impressed me or impressed upon me one of the insights I had was that I don't need to push I don't need to this thought came up with when Steve is you mentioned your, some of the tension or the pressure you had and looking to see how, how you can get the most of the practice and what if, what if it didn't work and your own kind of anxiety with that. And I, when I would go to Courses, I would often feel oh, the time is so limited, and I'm away from, you know, there's worldly life. And there's this intensive practice life and I just have to make the most of every minute I'm here. And when I would be in monasteries for longer, there was a relaxation and seeing that I didn't have to chase these insights, I could relax into the overall practice and atmosphere and let them come to me as they did. And that sense of relaxation completely opened me up to a new set of understanding them understanding the the workings of the mind, and rather than chasing it, being able to step back a little more passively, and observe what was naturally manifesting in every situation, wherever I was. And that was, that was really quite exciting to do. And I think that that this that was really interesting for Western practitioners as they come is there is this kind of combination that we haven't really mastered in, in many of our local communities in the West, where one is able to understand the sense of discipline and practice and rules and protocols and everything else, but not necessarily hold on to them so tightly to be able to, to follow those as and when they're, they're needed to their extent, but also be extremely relaxed and how how one is caring and how one is holding the expectation one has of others, the tolerance one has of others of, of where one might fall short, and realizing the range of responses that are available to, to being able to respond to that, aside from simply being some kind of like monastery cop or something. And so I think, and it reminds me of a a interview that we had a few months ago with venerable Canada, a British nun who was in Myanmar, and she spent some time talking about she also came from the blanket tradition then became a nun in a nunnery. And she there was a passage of when we were talking to her she referenced between the sittings and they weren't one hour sittings. You know, sometimes there were several hour sittings, the women would all kind of chatter constantly. And it was quite hard for her coming from the blanket tradition where there was this noble silence. But she realized that they were able to switch over pretty easily and from one environment to the other, they were able to just have this really communal, warm, friendly, chattering vibe, when they would, they would have meals or be tea time, and then they'd go in the hall, and they'd all that all set just perfectly still, and pursue the practice. And that also taught her how she was able to be in in this Burmese monastic environment, how she was able to not slack on the practice, and yet also not carry such a burden. Where you know, really, when you look at it, the the rules and the protocols of monastic life are far and away beyond anything, you'd find it a Glinka center, in terms of the lip, how many, how many rules, there are the fact that it's for life, and not for a short period, the fact that there's these vinyasa that's expected to be follow is cultural expectations as well wearing the robes. So the amount of rules that one is expected to follow is actually much more, but there's a way that those rules are being held that is, is different than how many people enter a Gonca environment or probably a lot of other Western Songdo intensive courses for that matter.
Steve Jarand 23:36
Yeah, it's, it's complex and subtle. Because the, the teachings of advanced or enlightened meditators are always just keep working, just keep working, don't waste your time, it's just time is of the essence. And so sort of, from from high up, it, it is that strict and like you say, if you, if you dive in, then there's these external, these external elements that can make you focus, but somehow within that, you need to need to have it be a longer term, a longer term thing, so that the valve the pressure valve is released on any particular period of time. And maybe, maybe it has to, it helps with the belief of, you know, your, your mind moving on into the next lives, which I still struggle with and find find difficult and don't integrate into to my practice, but I can really see good out. There could be a real kind of, you know, element in your mind to think okay, well, there isn't a lot of pressure right now, because this could this could go on for a while, and as long as I'm looking And then seeing the same direction that somehow we'll get there.
Kati Schweitzer 25:06
It actually reminded me of the, the two lands we spent quite a bit of time with and Tasia and SUTA. Like went to I was talking about the rules because they were following all the rules. And when we kind of hung out with them and traveled with them, whatever via to make sure to eat in time so that they would get their food. But they were so relaxed and happy. And yeah, it didn't seem like a like wasn't like a hard, horrible rule that was just lay it and that's how it was.
Host 25:46
Right, that's great. Looking back at your time in Myanmar, the time you spent traveling with monastics and monasteries, and nunneries. Are there any particular anecdotes or memories that stand out?
Kati Schweitzer 26:01
You mean, especially, like, directly related to the monastic life or, or anything,
Host 26:06
anything from your, from your time there?
Kati Schweitzer 26:10
Well, one thing I remember very clearly, is was et Cie, for where we, we were doing some research about some monastery, where was this where they based me
Steve Jarand 26:24
living? I guess,
Kati Schweitzer 26:25
yeah, anyway, we came and we were looking around some old monastery or something. And then there were some people from the village and they were washing their clothes, in a, like a stone pool or something. And some of them were bathing, and they waved at us and giggled and stuff. And anyway, at some point, they just made me come into the water, and they started washing me. And I was like, ah, but no, I can't, like I only have one set of clothes and suddenly came a girl with like, clock class to make lunges from and the, I could pick one and then she would just run and so me alongI and the other ones are the other women were taking me in and washed me and washed my hair. And everyone was giggling, it was kind of super fun, there was a woman with a baby. And then we took me out and put me in this line G and I was like, Man opinions on weight and take them off. And then they were laughing at me because I didn't want to take them off. There was just like, very lovely, they kind of integrated me in their, in their daily intimate routine. And it just felt very nice to be to be. I mean, of course, I wasn't really part of it, but it felt like I'm a little bit part of it. And it still makes me smile, when I think of it.
Steve Jarand 27:51
We got we got to meet a lot of senior monks in monasteries, partly because of of researching the swale handbook, and, you know, there was a, there was a purpose for us to talk to them about, you know, having a beer a connection to, to people who might come there in the future or to travel. But it was so nice to kind of forget mostly about the verbal connection and the intellectual and just sit, sit with someone who you know, has let a lot go has a lot of experience in, in this feeling of why we were there for me and mark it being in the soil and in the roots of, of looking at simplifying your life and mind rather than you always chasing more and more. So to be in people with in the presence of, of those people on several occasions was was really I think it was just grounding each time. It wasn't like, it wasn't like we were, you know, this guru kind of thing we sunk into because they are a quirky and, and interesting and unique all on their own, but it always feel felt like a kind of an honor, that I don't know why we we deserve but appreciate being being taken in and able to connect through them to whatever was was going on larger in their practice or in the practices of the country. I remember one time, we were just looking for somewhere to sit, maybe it was in C PA and we we found out there's a monastery or some community place that we went there because someone said you can you can meditate there. And so we went in and someone said oh the Dhamma halls this way. So we went to this where the Dhamma homotopy and then we sat we started talking When someone says, oh, there's there's a senior monk here, do you want to talk to them, and then we went in and talk to them. And that's translated and just made a connection just because we also sit on cushions.
Host 30:14
That's great. I think that's really your your story, Katie, about how alongI was just sewed for you in the process of trying to bait I think that these stories really get at just the, the, the extraordinary generosity that is shown to foreign practitioners who, who come you know, the most remarkable story I ever heard was about a a friend of mine who came in and he decided to become a monk in a monastery for about 10 days. And he had no experience in Myanmar. It was his first time and he he was in a remote monastery where it was only him and the say of the Burmese say it in the countryside and Shan State. And, as you know, most of the showering, bathing happens publicly outside, there's male and female. Basically, concrete tanks filled with water that people will stand around in their surroundings. And they'll though they'll be outside well, not undressing. And this foreign this American monk was confused how the proper way to to appropriately babies while not taking his robes off. And there was no one there was no one to ask because it was only him to say it. So eventually, after a couple days, he went to the Seder. And he asked he he very delicately was asking about this and to say it I said, Oh, that's right. You know, you're from a country where you don't bathe like this. And so it might be hard for you. And so we talked a little bit and then the next day, they're they're started to some a truck arrived. And they seemed like they were clearing some ground and starting to do some work. And that happened for a couple days. And then eventually the My friend said, Well, what's going on here? And he said, Oh, well, they're building you a bathroom, because we realized you don't really know how to shower this way. And my friend was floored. He said, I'm here for 10 days. And your your bill, you know, and he was also mortified, because he had never intended that he would bring a construction crew out the expenses and everything to build a bathroom for his week stay. But this was the extent to which the CFO was going to make sure that this foreign disciple, even for a week, was able to, to not be uncomfortable with and concentrate on the practice. And, and then this guy had said, you know, he was a digital nomad. He said, I've traveled the world. He said, I've never experienced the extent of the generosity that I felt in that moment. And I was I was just speechless, that that this level of anticipation and generosity would be given. And then he just he just simply didn't know how to respond.
Kati Schweitzer 32:46
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you can, you can really tell in the culture. I often think of Myanmar, like here, when I'm walking around here in the metro station or something and those people begging and and I look at how do we deal with those people in our culture. And you know, people might give something, but there's always something awkward or off about even even if people give something to someone, it's there's like, a status gap, or there's like, Okay, I'm the one giving and the good person and you're the person down in the underground receiving. Whereas in Myanmar, it was kind of the opposite read, if you walk around, even in a bigger city, and as maybe people asking for food or money or whatever. And then you see people giving to them, and they do it with such joy. And you know, exactly, they don't have a lot either, but, but it's kind of ingrained in the culture that giving you gain from giving. So they're, they're thankful that they have the opportunity to to give and I I thought it made all the difference in terms of how this whole society feels like the general feeling. And I think that's something we really hear in our western culture. We haven't learned and done and it's still like, it's odd. And we have the perfect social system and it's great, but we're losing the personal connection in way so we just be paying to the system and in some anonymous you know, you get your money maybe from some some anonymous system, but you don't have a connection between the people giving and receiving and yeah, just it's a skewed relationship. If someone directly Gibson someone receives Yeah, that's yeah. I don't know how to phrase it. But ya
Steve Jarand 34:42
know, I think it's, I think I have I also have been affected by that element. I would like to see how much people look to gain merits to look to gain. This side of humility by giving And then letting go and supporting people who do to do work on themselves, and we're kind of done to support those people is is a pretty selfless act to, you know, rather than trying to put yourself up, you put people up who are who are actually not trying to climb the ladder. And I mean, it's still still can't quite get there in, in our society, but even to have a glimpse more of I can get something from it, I can I can work on my ego, it really does help. And I think maybe a good example of it, it's kind of a mixing that as well as a Western construct, I've got involved in the Effective Altruism community, which is using science and research to find out which causes actually are most effective for the people they're trying to help around the world for, in terms of poverty, and people who actually need material help, but also with animal rights, or animal animal abuse, as well as AI and where our world is going anyway, it uses research. And so they have a pledge that you, you say you promised to give 10% of your income, or whatever percent you want. And you promised to do that for your life. And so I took this pledge, and it really became a big relief, to take the pledge, because then you don't think, should I give Should I not give, it's just Well, I'm giving this much anyway, here's an opportunity, I can actually bear to be there and enjoy it. You know, I can, I can look at someone who's there, you know, asking for money. And say, Yeah, this is this, this goes to you and I can I can be positive about it and not awkward and not shameful, because this is, I understand this part of me and how we can both gain. Yeah, so it's, it's not quite this idea of Oh, really, again, merits, but that helped me to kind of do this pledge and integrate it with, you know, reflection and research and, and I think it needs to be that when we live, you know, outside of a place like Myanmar, but still there's there's little there's little elements, that when you see a whole cultural or a whole country doing tick, they kind of stick with you.
Host 37:37
That's, that's really true. And I think that you're some of this terminology you're using is interesting. Looking, unpacking the word merits, that's obviously a bit of an awkward word in English to try to understand and has religious overtones. So it can be hard to wrap one's head around, Katie use the word joy. And I think that is something that, that one can really, really stand on that that feeling of joy when giving and that even if giving is happening in certain kinds of Western cultures, the joy that could be attached to it is often overlooked and missed out on and that's something I've, I've seen from my earliest days in Myanmar, when I started to understand the Buddhist society and more depths is that the Burmese are masters at not missing any opportunity for the the the moment of joy to arise in any act of giving that they maximize that to an incredible degree to the sense that I might give them meal two months, but I don't just give them meal two months, I invite you as my neighbors to come and watch me give them meal. And then after I give the meal, I express my I rejoice at what I've done, and you have the opportunity to rejoice with me. So these are, these are all just moments where we just get to increase the joy and increasing the joy means that we increase the giving because we remember that we have more opportunities to give later on that we associate the joy that's with it, we want to do it more. We take pictures of it so we can remember the pictures, we invite our friends so that it's a communal experience. And there's so many things that happen that just increase the sense of joy from a single act of giving, even if that giving is the equivalent of a couple dollars. It doesn't matter. It's the mental feeling that goes with that, that is being maximized and explored. And I've spoken when I gave pilgrimages there, the the some of the Western meditators, when they would go back they would often report their first few months back in their home countries, just looking for little things they can do that they can take a sense of joy and doing and realizing, realizing the power of whatever you give, giving it fully and completely renouncing if it's $1. You renounced claims that dollar entirely with every part of your mind and then you feel joy that you're doing that. And that gets out of the cycle because even in the West, there's so much there can be so much internal kind of strife or guilt. Did I give enough? Or should I give the next time or what do they think of me or, you know all of this and to really just be able to mute the volume a little bit on that, and to be inspired and educated by how you see the Burmese going about this, to realize that what you're already giving, recognize it, rejoice in it, have a take pleasure in it, take a stand up for it, you know, don't, don't hide it, really, really clean it and own it and feel good about it. And where there are further opportunities to give, then do that too. And then it really can become a sense of a sense of joy in one's daily life, and then having an underlying effect have also been able to underlie this much deeper spiritual practice that one is doing and eventually support the meditation itself.
Steve Jarand 40:51
And we had this everybody understands the adage of you get more in return when you give, but it just in practice, we just can't really get there. Yeah.
Host 41:08
Yeah. And I think this also underscores where we're at, at this present moment, that, with this, coming on the one year anniversary of this terrible coup and all the suffering that's gone on there at the monastic and other levels, is that as, as us as with many people listening, as foreign practitioners, the benefit the treasures that we've received from this, this unconditional selfless giving in this joy, that this, that the same people, these monasteries, these nunneries, these meditation centers are now in their darkest time in our lifetimes. And then they are not necessarily asking us to, to give, they're certainly not asking us to return any kind of favor of what what the foreign practitioner community has benefited from previous visits, there certainly no thought of that, as you know, many are, are quite humble are quite such a degree of humility in their own lives and in their own practice. But this is the one time where any debt of gratitude on the part of foreign practitioners for you know what, what spiritual teachings either in person or through lineages, one has been able to, to access that this is the time that this giving back in the other direction is the most needed and the most critical, and looking at how one's practice on the cushion can start to have effects in in daily life and beyond daily life, but in whatever form of engagement and awareness and support within one's limitations and abilities can happen towards, you know, looking at these these sites in these places, and these people in Myanmar that have given so much and are now under so much stress.
Steve Jarand 43:05
Yeah, and I think if if we look at an uneven kind of larger or deeper scale that, that anyone with a serious practice would be, would be happy and honored to know or, or at least, you could, you could feel you could have faith that they're going deeper into your practice, because you came in contact with or share these experiences in Myanmar. And now you're a person who, whose touching, touching base with someone on a ledge level with more joy, or you strengthen your practice, or you've use you see each other, you know, a little more humbly and little more equal, they would be so happy about that. I mean, that's, that's the ultimate, we keep hearing. That's the ultimate gift for the Buddha. If we if we want to do the right thing, in terms of what the Buddha was teaching, we would be to live the practice. There's no other amount of Dharma that is more of done at sorry, that is more precious than spreading the Dharma. And so I Yes, the material, the material side of it, of us helping is absolutely the time is, is now but it's so nice to be able to sort of strengthen even with conversations like this the feeling that we get from God from the people there and and how it can it can spread. It'd be very happy that what would they hold precious is going beyond their borders Well, we have one cute story that our our baby is doing Getting your head started in meditation because of a little statue we got an Myanmar Yeah, do you tell she our daughter Tilda, we have. We have a little statue of a meditate, we didn't find many souvenirs and but one, I think he was at the site with the Tipitaka carved into tablets in Mandalay
Host 45:26
cars that I forgot to. Yeah. And so
Steve Jarand 45:29
we got this little hand carved statue of a of a meditator and it sort of sits near our meditation cushions. And so our little daughter from before she was one would come and sort of sit on my lap, or on another cushion beside us and just want to join in the feeling and sit there. And so the preceptory seconds, and she would grab this little meditator and play meditation with it, and take a little folk paper towel or something and put it around shoulders and say, blanket blanket. And she calls it Buddha. And for some reason, she also learned to call it Sangha. We might have said Sangha, but really, she was like Sangha, Sangha Buddha. And, and she continues to do that. So, she kind of picks it up and knocks it over and throws it around. But it's this. It's this such a cute, innocent little connection to her having her own children's meditation course, whenever she feels like it. And it's centered around a little, little gift that was lovingly carved, and is standing up to her beating in Myanmar.
Kati Schweitzer 46:42
We also have a picture that will Mandela drew flies from Glencoe he right, to help monkian engine. Yes, and we brought it with us. And it's, it's hanging on our wall there. And, and she loves it because he is wearing glasses. And she, she calls it when she when she points out the glasses, and
Steve Jarand 47:08
she's obsessed with glasses and tearing them off her head. So just so he's in the club because he wears the glasses.
Kati Schweitzer 47:17
So we sometimes think of a mandala and deal with tilde.
Host 47:25
That's lovely. That's lovely. Those are great memories. Well, thank you so much for joining us on this call, as well as your continued support and all kinds of ways over the course of this past year with what's been going on in Myanmar. And and yeah, that's just those are some wonderful things to reflect on. Thanks so much time for taking the time to do that, sharing them here with me and publicly to all of our listeners to have a bit of joy and inspiration in their hearts as well.
Kati Schweitzer 47:54
Well, thank you so much for doing all this work.
Steve Jarand 47:57
And the opportunity to revisit some of these memories, good feelings was actually
Kati Schweitzer 48:02
inspiring.
Host 48:27
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