Transcript: Episode #114: Supporting Myanmar through Engaged Buddhism
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Derek Pyle, which appeared on July 29, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:21
Just a quick note before today's show. While we have transformed our entire platform to respond to the ongoing crisis in Myanmar, increasing our production of both podcast episodes and blogs, we cannot continue without your support please consider making a donation or contributing to the volunteer to support our active engagement at this critical time. The way that we're gonna have a good day today is Thursday I'm pleased to be joined with Derek Pyle pile on this episode of insight Myanmar podcast. Derek Pyle has been a Theravada meditator for a number of years and was engaged with Harlan snarky on the Buddhist humanitarian project, which was centered on relief towards the Rohingya community several years ago, we'll get into this and much more on the topic of meditation practice in the west and engage Buddhism engaged Buddhism in general. With that, Derek Pyle, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of insight me my podcast.
Derek Pyle 02:20
Thanks for having me. It's really good to be here.
Host 02:24
Yeah, so let's get in first to your background and spiritual practice and meditation. Before looking at some of the social activities you've been doing and engagement in the world, can you share a bit about what led to an interest in Buddhism, yourself, and then what forms of practice or traditions you want to take on as a practitioner?
Derek Pyle 02:48
Sure, so I was raised in a, in a Buddhist family, my, my, my own ancestry is, you know, European, European, American, but my, my parents were followers of tick, not Han. And so there was a they had a weekly sitting group, in, in the tradition of techno Han met at our house in the suburbs of California Bay Area growing up. And so that was, you know, I remember, like, the eating meditation was my favorite. I think I would join the Sangha when we got to eat a cookie very mindfully covered Sudan. And I remember visiting Plum Village as as a kid and seeing Thai speak, when he came to visit Spirit Rock also also in the Bay Area, kind of in the in the earlier days of spirit offices, in the 90s. And and then for myself, I really started to engage with the practice more deeply when I was a teenager, I think, I think, I think when I was 13, there was this is now that kind of the early 2000s. There were meditation retreats for teens, being organized on the west coast that had kind of started on the East Coast. And at the time, that Buddhist Peace Fellowship, were the ones holding that folks like Temple Smith and Diana Winston. I think Mark Beltre, and so I sat my first meditation retreat, which was tailored toward teens. So it was a mixture of silent practice and, and like, what you call relational mindfulness, as well as they were like, workshops on like, drugs and alcohol and sexuality, you know, all the kinds of things teams are like interested in and thinking about. And that was really cool. That was a really cool community and the flavor of those retreats was really, really inspired by it. I think folks like Temple and Marv, I remember hearing them just tell these really beautiful stories of time spent in in Burma practicing. And I also really connected with a, with a teacher there and him Heather Sunberg, who was authorized to teach in a Thai Forest. She's the lead teacher, but author has to teach in a Thai Forest lineage. And so the, that became kind of my, I practice really closely with her for a lot of years and, and then eventually found myself just kind of checking out a range of different teachers and traditions and lived with a Tibetan monk for a while and you know, all these different kinds of things. But these days feel kind of most at home in the, in the community around a local Vihara, which is Bhikkhuni. monastery, a forest monastery. It's reclaiming the human lineage. Here, here, also in California. And yeah, yeah. And I think over the course of that, sort of has also sad thinking about the Burmese thread. When I've sat longer retreats, you know, a couple of weeks to a couple months, generally, that's, that's often been with teachers that are really steeped in Burmese, Burmese traditions, folks like Fanta, Kipper, ponto, or, or lay teachers, places like IMS Insight Meditation Society, who are teaching Mahasi side methods or side vision or things like things like that. So that's always been, that's been part of my path as well.
Host 06:49
Right. So that's interesting, you a lot of foreigners, a lot of Westerners when they come to meditation, they're really breaking the mold of their family and community and conditioning, sometimes even rebelling to take on something like meditation. But for you, it sounds like that was the fabric within which you were raised as your parents and the community in early childhood, that Buddhist practice of meditation has been somewhat native to you from your early years. In family life. Is that so?
Derek Pyle 07:19
Yeah, I think so. I think, yeah, it's certainly it's certainly always been there. I mean, we grew up, you know, tick, not Han, who recently passed away, we grew up every, every night saying, This food is a gift of the whole universe there, this guy and much hard work. When we live in, you know, maybe we live in a way that we're worthy to see that maybe we take our unskilled states of mine, especially archery, except this food is the path of practice. That was the dinnertime prayer every night, growing up as a kid, you know, which, which today we would say, Hey, man,
Host 07:55
that's great. So I'm wondering also what benefits you've seen to derive in your life from devoting yourself to a Buddhist practice?
Derek Pyle 08:02
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think. I mean, in a way, it's hard to know, because it's like, it's so there wasn't exactly a before and after, right, there's just sort of been this, like, this circle of the, you know, engaged in one way and another way, and there's certainly been years where I've felt less connected to the practice and then more connected and other years, but I think that a lot of my just general orientation to you know, thinking about something like suffering or, or the impairment, you know, friends passing away, or kind of seeing these kinds of, you know, as you as you grow up, it's being a teenager's for us and you know, losing friends and family members is difficult and, and sort of the, the, the Four Noble Truths having a fundamental having that as a orientation to like sort of understand these universal experiences. I think it's certainly been important. I think also, I'm very interested in both through my personal experience, as well as my sort of social and political worldview or whatever you want to call it in interested in alternatives to kind of the traditional mental health system. And I think that sort of engaging with being connected to a this tradition that goes on for, you know, a couple 1000 years and is not it's a way of thinking about the heart and mind, but is not Psychology it is not, you know, it was not created, it doesn't have anything to do with insurance company. Nobody's ever heard of Freud or Skinner, you know, any of these sort of traditions that have influenced, like the US mental health system. I mean, of course, now there's a lot of interest in mindfulness but, but really a fundamentally different orientation toward thinking about the mind and heart. And I think also, I think for me, I've always been really motivated by sort of, I don't think capitalism is working out too good. I don't think like this sort of endless consumerism is working out too well, or making people happy. And, and so how it you know, I think there's sort of a, especially somewhere like the Buddhist Peace Fellowship, as well as like, you go and spend time in a monastery, whether that's similar like a loco Vihara, or visited a, you know, a couple of like, Thai, you know, more ethnically Thai monasteries that are here in the States, and it's just a very different orientation, you know, to be able to go and visit a place for a week, or you know, and there's work to be done and things to be done. And but no one's like, there's not a bill at the end of it, or there's not a bill before it.
Host 11:30
Right. So the practice for you was never just a practice that was on the cushion, but it had these elements of economic, political, social, psychological, emotional, in addition to the whole spiritual aspect, these were all kind of intertwined. It sounds like and that leads to the next question, which is looking at engaged Buddhism, what has been called the term capital E, capital V has been called engaged Buddhism in the world. And this is something that you're, you mentioned working with Alan Sanaka, he has been quite at the forefront for many years of coining and developing and enacting this term, I've engaged Buddhism that I think is probably understood to varying extents by other meditators and Buddhist and perhaps even disparaged by by some that think it's not real Buddhism, but the term I think means different things to different people, what exactly is meant by engaged Buddhism? So for you, how would you come to define what engaged Buddhism is for you?
Derek Pyle 12:33
The orientation I've always had towards Buddhism is that is that you have the part on the cushion. And then almost a way you put that to the test, right? Like if you have these, you put the fruit, the fruits of your practice, you sort of check them out in the world by like, oh, do I actually, do I actually have this equanimity or whatever, you know. And I think that's very much that was very much always just, that's always just been the orientation. I think that's, that's really strong in, in the Thai Forest Tradition, someone like John Shaw, I think, as a Jimny, and who's who's Heather had was part of her lineage and and then true in, you know, sort of the, the lay Dharma scene, I think people are into that kind of thing, too. And, and certainly in the, the, yeah, the team, the team meditation world that I was introduced to, because of that relational mindfulness and stuff like that, again, it's really in there. But I think, I think engaged Buddhism, if someone came to me and said, What is engaged Buddhism, I think it would also include this, this sort of lineage and history, like these relationships that have been built over over time and these groups, so like, that would certainly include tick, not Han and his and his work, and then his kind of like, cross pollination with people like Dr. King, right. There's like this relationship and in history there in the US Civil Rights Movement and resistance, the Vietnam War, like, his role, and, you know, there's like, there's like history and lineages there and, and certainly Owens and Aki would be included in that. And I think like the, yeah, like the sort of Bay Area. Zen traditions which, which Allen is, is a part of would, would be in there too. Like I think of the I had forgotten, you know, as a hospice, volunteer for I don't know, maybe a couple of years. And, and I'd forgotten that. Like, there's there's a there's a, there's some folks in thinking about engaged Buddhism that would call something like hospice, a form of that, you know, and certainly, that's something that the San Francisco Zen community knows about then. So yeah, I think it's this, I think it's this history and lineage of people. People who are either using Buddhism sort of you could organize within Buddhism for peace or justice or healing or any of these kinds of things like Maha gosa, Nanda after after the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia thinking about how, how do we move forward as a country, and I think using Buddhism within that. And then I think there's other folks that sort of, and I would certainly include myself in this when I'm out. involved in, I'm involved in like a street outreach project here, and in Southern Oregon, that's working with unhoused, folks, and Buddhism informs me and doing that, and informs my worldview, and, and, you know, I'm not out there giving out Buddhist tracks or anything, but it's sort of there's Buddhists who, through their practice, get inspired to, to do X, Y, or Z things that we might call engage. That's kind of what that's what comes to mind for me.
Host 16:12
Right. And I think for some practitioners in the West, there, some have come to see meditation, more as a solitary pursuit. And I think one can go into the historical roots of that a little bit with the how so many practitioners came to Buddhism to meditation by these intensive silent retreats that were often heavily focused on on sitting. And, and so their conception of the practice has really been something that is inside that is solitary, I think I, one of the things that really shaped my initial practice and understanding or believing this was a phrase of the teacher by saying something like you've been, you've been having your eyes open throughout your life. And now during this practice, you're going to have your eyes closed, and for the first time look within, and I just took that so much to heart to mean that I had kind of been wasting a lot of my life that had been always looking outside seeking things, grabbing other things, being interested in things. And I think there was a tendency, and I don't think I'm alone in that. And him being more inward is a reaction to how much one was living outside before but then, as one goes on, it starts to the the entire practice has the danger of becoming strictly a solitary pursuit. And, and not so much looking at where it's taken outside the cushion, or there's some limits or boundaries, insofar as one is able to sit and how far it goes. And so for you, it sounds like from the beginning, this was never really a problem or never really an issue, it seems like it sounds like the the way that you found it and the way it was introduced, from your parents and your community. And as you you, as you mentioned, there's no real before and after, with you as there certainly is, for me and for many others, with the way you were raised. But your practice did take on a certain kind of priority of being a v not just on the cushion in the practice hall or walking meditation, but in your own solitary nature of it, but also in having this outgrowth of being engaged and being involved. And so why do you think for you, particularly, this, it developed in this way, which is quite different from how it's been for many other practitioners where it has, as in my case, and many others, it's brought them to be more inward facing more more focused on the solitary and then having some years later to look at where that balance lies in.
Derek Pyle 18:45
Yeah, that's a good question. I think. I mean, I would say for me, it's come and gone and in waves, you know, I think my my own path has stopped more I think it's maybe a real cup poem that's like I live my life in concentric circles or something like that. I seem to recall like sort of maybe Joanna Macy talking about that that sort of is but um so there's been these sort of this flow or where my you know certainly sitting a month long Silent Retreat I'm not it's very much closing you know, and things like that and I really love the time I've been able to, to spend in in practice like that, but um, it you know, one image that comes to mind I remember the first monastic that I really remember well, no, I guess he wasn't the first but but one of the like, the moment I remember the first time I remember really kind of being inspired by someone in the robes and being a monastic and Was this monk who had, who had actually connected through the, through the little Sangha that met at our house and ordained at Plum Village with tech, not Han. And I remember seeing him come back to visit in robes and you know, thinking that was really cool and, and just yeah, like being really interested in his shoes, he had these biodegradable shoes, which I thought was really cool. You know, it's like, you know, 12 or 15. But But this, this monk, I don't know what his he ended up changing his name a couple of times. So I don't know what name is using these days. But he, after spending a number of, of years at Plum Village, he, he he said, I'm going to, he decided he basically took a vow that he would, he would go into Hermitage, you know, and not come out until he was fully enlightened. And, and he, through the kind of Technical and Community he knew a man who had had some sort of property in Vermont that I think was Yeah, had been close to that community. I don't know the total history, but he lived there for years and years and years. And as far as I know, I visited him once we've lost touch, but as far as I know, he's still there, you know, and so like, that you don't that like to think about that, right? That sort of journey of like you don't have there isn't? Tick non Han is sort of think of 20th century engaged Buddhism, his name is certain, you know, that lineage and his what he represents is certainly up there. But then you also have a monastic from that tradition being so inspired through through the path that he's practicing there to then take a vowel like that, and really, really go for it. You know, I mean, it's sort of, yeah, it just doesn't, it just doesn't feel as I know, for people, you know, I know there's lots of people have lots of there's, I'm not saying My perspective is the only one. But for my from my vantage point, it's just always seemed like, you could do one or the other. And they're both. They're both good. You know?
Host 22:21
Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. And I think, right, I'm reflecting back on my question I didn't I think my question might have sounded slanted towards the the benefit, even even questioning the benefit of the intensive practice, which in no way I meant, of course, my life has been completely transformed and changed by those words that I've been looking outside my entire life. And now I'm to look inside, I mean, that that was just a profound shift of every way that I approach things. I think, I also had some maturing to do to understand this did not mean that instead of looking outside, I now look inside, that there was still a balance to be found that I think a lot of a lot of Western meditators do struggle with as they shift away from doing something that is so transformative and powerful, as they learn it, that where that integration fits in into a healthy and balanced lifestyle, for sure.
Derek Pyle 23:20
Yeah, yeah. And I think I think for me practicing with Heather Sunberg. For a lot of years, I mean, I think this was an and she, like a lot of lay teachers here in the States has had a number of different teachers, but that really was really close with Agile engineering for a number of years in Thai Forest Tradition, who's sort of a wild man and you know, but I remember just Heather, Heather saying, the Dharma is everywhere. You know, it's like, you can't be it's everywhere. And, and, and her and I think hurt in passing along like agenda answers, right? Because it it doesn't really matter if it's this form or that form, you know, instead of saying the form the forms not what's important, you know, that's just been that's been inspiring. And I think it's the same way for me like with suit to study, like, there's been times where suit to study has been really important. And, and there's other times where it's like, Man, my head just really hurts, you know? And just being okay with with that. And I think for me, I'm just curious too, so like, I think for a while I was maybe more exclusively within kind of the lay insight, meditation scene and then being like, well, what's going on in these monasteries and what's going on? You know, going to visit like, being in the Bay Area and going to like one of the Deepika chanting doing events where monastics from all different. All different Tera Vaada backgrounds and ethnicities and traditions are coming together to like chant that medica for like three or four days, you know. And just seeing like the end the devotion of like, you know what the event I went to with that, like, there was a largely Thai, ethnically Thai community that was cooking all the meals and like, and the depth of Dharma that you'll find, like with, like, talking to a cook at a monastery or a retreat center or something like that, you know, and like that, or retreat manager or that, like, there's, I think especially, well, in the lay centers, and then in the monasteries to just the different like, the deep, deep wisdom and practice of people who manifest that through just cooking or helping do a spreadsheet or, like, you really, when you hang out in those places, you see that much more differently than when you're just you know, I think the way insights seen we can get kind of fixated on like, that person's the teacher and I listen to them, you know, because you're only on retreat, right? You don't even talk to anyone else, right? Like you just go on retreat. But but when you're in those more community settings, it just feels it just, it's, it's just so much more, the Dharma just sort of imbues the whole thing, so much more has been my experience anyways.
Host 26:44
Yeah, as someone who spent a lot of time in monasteries, and meditation centers in this country, and others, I really like where you're going with that, I think you're really breaking down these kinds of divisions between teachers, students, practitioner server, even monastic lay, and just looking at where is the Dhamma, and where is the practice within the respective activities that one is doing, which I think is a really healthy, beautiful way to look at it. And I think it's also, I think, it's also very reflective of what I found in Myanmar, where the the nature of the practice takes on, you can't really draw these lines around when the practice first came to the west, I think they did their best to try to create a so called practice environment, to bring the essentials into an experience in a space where people could follow it and go ahead themselves. And I think that was very beneficial and helpful. However, over the generations and over times might create some kind of artificial or false dichotomy with some practitioners that there's an on or off for this or that. And I think that I think being able to break that down and see the beauty and the possibility and everything in, you know, and cutting carrots, I mean, I don't know how many hundreds or 1000s of carrots I've cut and dama kitchens, and just how much I've learned about myself through doing that, and also how how hard that has been as well, not the cutting, but the so much else that goes into it. So I think that's that's I think you're really hitting on something with that. I and it's interesting talking about this now, because my next question was going to go towards asking what work you've done that you would characterize as engaged Buddhism, that was the question I prepared. However, with where you're going, you're already starting to break down these categories. And so that question itself might need to be something that's unpacked.
Derek Pyle 28:40
I think there is a lot of false dichotomy with even the idea of like, on the one hand, there's this narrative of like, people like, say, in the Tera, Vaada, Joseph Goldstein and Sharon Salzberg bringing the Dharma to the west, but almost, but then there's like, well, there's, there are Chinese and Japanese Buddhists practitioners here for a lot longer, you know, a really long time. And, and, and sort of even thinking about, like, our orientation of what the what the history and lineage is of Buddhism in this country is that's something that I got really interested in and I don't know if I would call it quite I don't know if I would, you know, I wouldn't well, it whether whether I would think of it as sort of engaged Buddhism or not, but but that alone has been really interesting. I got really, I took on a research project that ended up being just an article for lion's roar sort of looking at this of like, thinking about sort of race and the histories of Buddhism in the states and specifically looking at like meditation we have this sort of myth that only I don't know only White people are Westerners, whatever that means or whatever meditate. And if there's Asian American Buddhists, they don't meditate. And it's just, it's just not true. So that's been sort of learning about that. And educating myself about that has been a really interesting way of understanding lineages and trying to share, you know, I try and share some of that with people. And I think, kind of ties into the, I think the importance of us, which, as you certainly do, you know, what your podcast is all about, like, looking at these, these questions. And that being said, just to just to sort of talk about what you're, you're asking. I mean, it's interesting. I remember, like, the first time I was arrested for like, a sort of civil disobedience or is, it was a protest at the governor's office. So the governor of Oregon, fighting, opposing and urging the governor to formally come out, Governor Kate Brown ran as a Climate Champion. And yet, there's this this pipeline and LNG liquid, you know, gas terminal, Jordan Cove, the Jordan Cove energy project and pipeline that were that were proposed, you know, fossil fuel infrastructure here in Southern Oregon, and people fought it for a lot of years. And so I was arrested as part of a protest against this, this, this pipeline, and, and what, you know, I think there were, I think it was like 21 folks who were arrested during the sit in and one of them was a Zen priest in robes, you know, it sort of talking to the other people, we realized that like, that, I think four of us, just happened to be Buddhists. It wasn't like a little Buddhist group had gone together to do this. It was like, we just, oh, you're a Buddhist hero. That's it. That's interesting. But I think the I think certainly my, my work with in terms of sort of engaging more directly with Buddhist community, my, I think, my work, you know, my work with the Buddhist humanitarian project, and Alan snarky, and during the, during the Rohingya crisis, or the coming, crisis is ongoing, and has been for many years, but, but it was in 2017 or 2018, that the, that the violence was really really escalating from, from the Burmese military and, and being really disturbed by this and knowing that the, you know, feeling that I had, I had really benefited from practicing with, you know, with teachers in my house decided as needed and set out to engineer and I don't know if it's true, I had, I had been told at one point that Oakland Anita was was a teacher of Aung San su chi when she was under house arrest. Do you know if that? Have you ever heard anyone? Yeah, yeah, I
Host 33:22
think teacher might be a bit of extrapolation in terms of what goes into the meaning of the word teacher, but definitely say that who Pandita was, wasn't inspiration that, that they did meet, she did read his book when, when she was there, and looking at some of the, the Burmese monastic influences alongside sushi, say that we've had data was one of three that that influenced her. To what extent I think this is something that becomes so fascinating. To the meditator world is wanting to know like, what did they teach? What are they talking about? What did she practice? What was the, you know, what, what was it that she was doing, but I think this is also the thing that when media, outside of the meditator world, the Buddhist world is reporting on this. It's just kind of like, Oh, isn't this cute? Isn't this cool that this this is her teacher, this is this is what she read. And they don't really get into that kind of nitty gritty like we want to. And that's also one of the reasons of wanting to have people on that. It's not not just like, Oh, you're an engaged Buddhist, that's great. Well, let's learn about this. But no, let's let's break down who are your teachers? And what have you learned? And how have you applied that and what has been hard and wanting to pick that apart? Because it's so much more interesting than just saying, like, as we usually hear, like, yeah, that was that was one of our teachers, which is, you know, which is certainly true, but it leaves open a number of questions about what exactly was taught and there that might come out someday. I know someone who has in the inner circle has a bit of that knowledge that is not privileged to share. I've heard a couple snippets that are incredibly fascinating. I'm down by silence to to not give to not I've been working on him Little slowly to see if that can start to come out, especially now. But, um, anyway, sorry, to you asked a simple question and I gave you a longer answer. So please go on.
Derek Pyle 35:09
Yeah, that's great. That's really that's really interesting. But, but yeah, I think I think about the, you know, maybe what techno Han would call the, the interconnectedness of, like, when the when, you know, seeing Buddhist ideology, and a military that pays homage and uses. Donna, you know, as a, like, you know, goes to pagodas in the monastery as a way, you know, part as part of its image. And then conducting such intense violence and, and to me, it really felt like you know, I've never been to Myanmar, but but through relationships, and friends and community, it feels like, Oh, these are like, these are our cousins over here. And I've, I've been a benefit and a recipient of so much from these lineages, and and these practices that then that, then I sort of have this responsibility to respond in some way. And so I think that was really that, yeah, I think that was one of the more certainly one of the more involved projects I've had sort of working formally within the Buddhist world. And thinking about, you know, and so through that I reached out to Alan Senaki, who was, you know, for a lot of years has, has been one of the really great links between sort of socially engaged Buddhism in the States and a different humanitarian and, and engage Buddhist practices in Burma and elsewhere in the world, too. But, you know, at the time, Allen had, had created a letter, you know, sort of condemning the condemning the violence and calling on the Burmese state Sangha to do something, right. And, and, and just sort of, you know, I just sort of reached out away, we didn't know each other at all, but I sort of wrote him and said, hey, what if we, this letter is great, what if we turned it into a petition, you know, and we sort of talked about, well, if it's going to be a petition, then you know, people sign it, but then maybe they feel moved to make a donation that could go to to fund you know, to support refugees, you know, living in the, in the refugee camps in Bangladesh, that, you know, working NGOs that are fleeing the country and things like that, and sort of thinking about, like, a range of ways we could help. You know, I think with with sort of community organizing, or whatever, it's really helped a lot, I would say, you have to give people something to do. Right. So you have this awareness, but then there's like, oh, you can do this thing. And, and starting out, yeah, you could sign this thing. That's pretty easy. You know, most people can design something, they have the time to do that. And then there haven't really come across much discussion like foodist discussion of transformative justice. But But I feel like it's the ideas about karma, their ideas about karma and interconnectedness and causes and conditions and that I think, are really interesting, like, if we and hatred does not cease by hatred, right? This is teaching from the Buddha like what are what are other ways, you can't beat violence out of somebody right, or things like that.
Host 38:47
I think for many people in the West, meditation and spirituality are too many are private pursuits. In one sentence, it's often been remarked in general that religion and politics are sensitive areas and not suitable for really any kind of family get together or sit down meal things that are often avoided due to the touchiness of them. So what I'm thinking is, while you've personally chosen to connect your Buddhist practice with these wider social concerns, other meditators are not. And my question is, do you think that it's fair game, and just simply a personal choice, depending on the individual, the type of practice, they're doing their tradition, their teacher, that it's really up to the individual to decide if they have that firewall and have that kind of their own practice according to, to that desire to want to want to keep it away from all the stuff in the world? Or do you think on the other hand, that there's some degree of social consciousness and engagement that is really necessary and important on some level of practice, and that if one is not engaging, even a little bit in that direction, that It points to something not quite working in the practice, where would you land on that?
Derek Pyle 40:05
Yeah, I think it depends, I think I think someone, you know, I think if someone is up in a cave up in the hills, and really like, I'm going to do this, you know, I'm really going to, I'm really gonna leave the world, and I'm really going to go deep in, in in a more, you know, hermitage kind of setting and for I'm really going to dedicate myself to the monastic path. And, and that looks, you know, obviously, the monastic path can look a lot of different ways. But But for instance, you know, I think someone's saying electoral politics, that's not my place, you know, like, that's too much, or whatever. I think there's ways in which I think I have a lot of respect for a lot of different folks engaged in, you know, what, I think those would call them more solitary pursuits, you know, certainly living in a cave, right, or living in a hermitage, or that's really secluded is, is. I think, on the other hand, if it's like, if it's like, let's create a new form of capitalism, where we're relentless to our workers, and our you know, if it's, like a tech company that's like, we're gonna work our workers to death. And our products are going to be made using sweatshop labor where people are, you know, like, taking their own lives to get out of it, right. Like some of the things we've heard about Apple and iPhones, and but all of our, all of our all of our executives go on meditation retreats, you know, we're sort of gonna use mindfulness to sort of like, grease the wheels of, of capitalism better, you know, or something like that. I think that's like, and then you're like, well, well, we're, you know, if it's, if it's someone in that position, or in a position like that, saying that, that human rights is, you know, human rights violations or, you know, like, like violence and in Myanmar, or police brutality in the States or whatever. They're saying, Well, I'm too, I'm a spiritual practitioner. So those things aren't my concern, you know, like, on that, and it's like, no, I think, I think you've got, I think you like yourself, you know, about what you're doing. So, I but I think it's up to each of us. I think it's in I hopefully, in community, we're exploring these kinds of things and like, and, and we can in an, you know, I'm sure in a given individuals life, it might, they're their own. You know, think yeah, thinking, thinking for myself, like, there was a time where I was really into crystals, you know, sort of gems and minerals and things like that, and I was there in my early 20s. And, and then at some point was like, Where does this come from, you know, what's going on? What's going on in the process of taking extracting from the earth that's creating these? Does this really fit with my values? You know, I think it's like, I think we have, we can be in conversation with our own values and, and just sort of figuring it out as time time goes on. But I think there are there certainly are, there are lots of ways to practice are far from the worldly stream that are really beautiful. And, and on the other hand, there's lots of ways to use spirituality to sort of lie to ourselves and ignore, ignore things that, that I think if we, you know, at least for me, when my you know, like, like, again, to think about the Rohingya violence or, and the coup and what what's going on with in Myanmar now, it's a military and to me that it's not, it's not my philosophy, it's like, it pains me on an on a more on like, an existential level in a way because it's like, Oh, am I a part of this lineage? You know, am I a part of this history? If I'm claiming to be a Buddhist and, you know, have practiced in this way or that way? Or, like, is this am I a part of this? What's my responsibility here? Like what you know, that that that I've really had to like wrestle with that? It's been it feels personal. It doesn't. Yeah.
Host 44:54
That's really interesting. That last part that you said, so you're wrestling with that it feels personal, it's something that you're trying to work out? And then how does that transfer over to how you look at others? And that's, to me, that's the really delicate, difficult question because no one wants to be in a position telling others what they should be doing or thinking or not doing. And that's not comfortable relief for anyone. And so, so we don't want to move in any direction of a conversation where we're saying people that take a meditation practice shouldn't be doing this and shouldn't be doing that. That's completely inappropriate to me. However, there is a way of looking at it that and this is the essential question of to what degree is some degree of social engagement and concern about the world around you and your environment or even your local community? How much of that should be impacted and evolved through one's meditation practice, in order to see this this kind of spiritual practice as being something valuable in the world and to oneself? And if that's not there? What does that say about what that role the practices in the first place? And to what degree is that crossing certain uncomfortable lines of one's own personal choice? And I think you hit on something really valuable that part of this is who you are, you know, I asked this question to Sauron, who was a checkbook and Myanmar. And his response was very clear, he said that those that are in a teaching or responsible role, absolutely have not just the right but actually the obligation to stand up and do whatever they can to prevent killing those that are in a role of studying or practice or meditation, not so much. It's okay if they're if they're trying to continue with their Buddhist development and not involve so much. So I think what is is very important and looking at the equation, and what as you said, if someone is in the world is in a cave and living quite a monastic life bent on striving for the highest levels of liberation, like yes, there could be a reason for not engaging with this or that. But it does come back to that kind of uncomfortable question of to what degree is it? does one want to say that a spiritual component and a Buddhist meditation component should involve this? or to what degree is this really, okay, this is one's own personal choice, if they, you know, if they're if they're just following the practice, or have a personality where they just simply don't want any engagement with these with with outside issues, and they're, they're just their spiritual practice takes up that kind of form. And,
Derek Pyle 47:33
yeah, yeah, it's a couple of things come to mind. I mean, one. Like if, you know, if we think about, for instance, the what's going on in Myanmar, with the coup in the military and the people's resistance and which I find the resistance really inspiring. But if we think about that, if we say, Okay, I want to help. I care about this issue, for whatever reason, you know, me, Derek Pyle, or me, Buddhist practitioner, this has got me going, you know, and like that, there's a Yeah, we could go out and say, everyone should care about this. And if you're not, you're doing it wrong. And but, and I think that's, you know, you're like, that doesn't quite feel right. But I think a different approach would be just making it exciting and accessible, right? So I could like, go to my local Sangha and be like, Hey, we're gonna show this movie, and it's a really interesting movie. And you're gonna learn more about this. And if the if, at the end, if you feel moved, you can sign this petition or, you know, like, like presenting it, you can you can present something and make it interesting and compelling and accessible without it being dogmatic or lecturing, right. So that's sort of one thought there. And two, I think that I mean, I can't think of the SUTA offhand. But the Buddha does list in the, in the Pali canon, somewhere, that there's a list of like, qualities that, that that are that a spiritual friend, embodies, and I'm thinking one of them is like, is that they're open, open to feedback. You know, I think I think this like giving and receiving feedback is like actually listed as sort of a quality of like, a spiritual friendship. And so I think there's there's also a difference too, in terms of like, I think how close we are with a person and what our relationship is and, and what certainly for me, if, if there's ways in my practice or in my life that I'm really like, missing the mark or just not being honest with myself. I hope that my friends are you know, and they certainly are sometimes, you know, but that they could Take me aside and be like, Hey, I think you're, I think you're kind of off the mark here, you know, and, and, and share their own perspective in that in a way that feel that that's hopefully supporting both of us kind of growing together, you know, I think if I was in a predominantly white Sangha that really valued relationships with the police, you know, for whatever we do Police Community Engagement days, I don't know. And then like, you know, they sort of are taking a position there, right, like, if a song was was flying, say, a blue lives matter flag, which I think is sort of is the police response to Black Lives Matter, right, you're sort of taking sometimes you are taking aside or community is taking aside, in which case, they think engaging in like, critical discussion. And, and even, you know, some of this gets into to like thinking about what's called, you know, nonviolent direct action thinking about like, which is, you know, what we sort of think of with the US Civil Rights Movement. And I remember talking to Alan Sinofsky about this, and talking about direct action, he's like, you know, direct action is a way of applying force. That is not, there is not violence. So it's a, it's a way of applying pressure and force, that's not violence. And I think, I think there are times where we might, where it's where we might decide to use tactics like that. to, to, because it's, you know, if you're, if you're sort of saying, like, if we were to think about, I just saw a report that, that teak wood, right teak wood being exported from Myanmar, and there are US companies that are that are importing this, and some of them are going around sanctions, right, like existing sanctions from the US, so they're not legally supposed to be buying this wood. And the sanctions are related to not funding the military and not funding the violence in Myanmar. And I think we might decide, you know, that I could see Buddhist practitioners or whoever folks that want to be in solidarity with with people in Myanmar saying, this situation is so extreme this money funding, the violence is so extreme, that actually we do need to kind of like, apply some pressure to these, these importers, or of teak wood, right, like and, and have, like, we do need to tell them what to do, essentially, because it's wrong, right? We're like, no, like, I think there are times where we, where it makes sense to pick up. To use a tactic in advocating for social change, that does involve more direct pressure like that. And if it's me lecturing my family members at the dinner table, it's and they don't actually care about these, you know, it's like it comes off pretty weird. Doesn't make for a great dinner. But But I think there are, to me, I think we should be open to kind of a range of tactics of, of, if we're thinking about social change, and we're concerned about social change, thinking about a range of tactics. And maybe there are times where, where a more confrontational approach, actually, you know, like, if, if you were to say, get a bunch of people to blockade A teak factory and shut it down for a day, you know, no one actually gets hurt by doing that, right. Like no one is dying from that. But you could say, this pressure is actually important because it's taking a stand against the violence that this company is funding. You know, I don't I think it would be interesting to see more in this moment of, of, of the incredible violence being perpetuated by the military and Myanmar, I think it would be really interesting to, for Buddhists, community and others, you know, anyone wants to kind of think about that, to be thinking about what are the things we can do in the States? What are the ways we could apply pressure? What are the tactics? What are the what are the different approaches we could take to really think about how we might be how we might intervene in a way that actually moves that reduces violence. Right, like that reduces the human rights abuses that reduces the the monasteries in Myanmar being disrupted by airstrikes, right. Like, you can't it's pretty hard to meditate over there. If there's a, you know, I can only imagine with airstrikes going around and things like that. So, anyways,
Host 55:20
yeah, yeah. And you know, it's not just the airstrikes, I talked to so many people that have a, a very deep multi-year meditation practice, who grew up in that environment. And person after person has told me they don't, they can't rest inside their head for even a minute. And I hear that I haven't experienced it. Or maybe there have been moments of extreme trauma in my life, where I can sympathize with just a really disruptive moment, that that took some time for the practice to kick in, but I can listen, I can hear it, I simply can't imagine what it's like, to not be able to meditate for days upon weeks upon months. And, and to have that level of trauma that even experienced meditators are not able to rest inside themselves and are are looking for relief and stability through talking to peers, or aromatherapy or other types of more external methods, which I think is is a is a sign of wisdom, actually, that one is realizing that the mind isn't able to work at some level, or as one as one doctor explained to me, as well. He said, Look, I simply can't observe the breath. It's impossible. i My mind is so traumatic, and with what I'm dealing with, the stress is so high and one teacher, he's in the mobile tradition, one teacher told me, Oh, just notice the numbness in your legs. That's enough. Just notice when you're standing, there's numbness and okay, I do that. And so there's these different ways to, to work with it. And speaking of Myanmar, looking at me, and more specifically, you've written and spoken before, about you personally feeling a debt to Myanmar, and you've referenced before how you've done meditation practice in the tradition of Mahasi. Say it, I'd say DotAsia, Nia, and beyond your personal debt to Myanmar, the wider practitioner, and dare I say, mindfulness community also has some kind of debt to Myanmar at this moment, can you expand on your thinking of what you mean by that debt,
Derek Pyle 57:23
to see if they were the, where the Buddha is discussing? The debt one has to their parents, right. And it's, for those of us who didn't grow up in a nuclear family, which I did, but you know, for folks who didn't, it might not quite translate, but the metaphor is, is, is, you have this incredible debt to your parents, right for being born, they've given you this human life. And and it's like, if you carried on, carried both your parents on your back for, you know, years and years and years and years, like even then you wouldn't be able to repay the debt. But if you if you shared the Dharma with that actually would write and this sort of idea that the Dharma is priceless, and the all of these kinds of ideas. To me, then it's like, well, if, if the, the Yeah, the Dharma is worth so much than then or can't even be priced, it's sort of like we have a debt to those who've shared it with us, right, we've sort of we're indebted to those who've shared it with us. And, and you're totally right. I mean, hearing the, I think, you know, like Jon Kabat Zinn has like, credited as the the sort of originator, I guess, you know, I don't know the term but of mindfulness based stress reduction, which is like the base like the basis of so much secular mindfulness practice, I think I was interviewing Joseph Goldstein for a project on some music. Yeah, you know, John had the had that idea while he was on retreated, IMS. I don't know the full story, but it's like, that's, that's a pretty strong link, you know, to to, to, you know, that just thinking of the link between sort of Tera Vaada, and the mind the secular mindfulness stuff, and I think one of the great shortcomings of a lot of meditation and Dharma teachings in in the United States, is that it I think a lot of folks aren't aware of or have even forgotten, or maybe in some cases, hidden, the lineages and the traditions and the actual sense of like, where this stuff comes from. And I think that gets into you know, there's like, there's sort of like Imperial second period, that's Story of race and imperialism and quote, like, there's a lot of reasons for that. But I think it's really important to, to me, it feels really important and also just much more enriching to really know where all this is coming from and to be in conversation with as much as we can. With the history in the lineages and the origins of this stuff, and if we have this, this, this is Tera Vaada traditions and teachers and communities that have shared so much, then it feels like it just feels like a really natural response to me anyways, but sort of weird to say. So this is, this is what happens like Donna, this is this is this is the the result of giving and receiving generosity is that that one feels in their own heart that that it's, you know, the rights and I don't know that the right term, but that we should return that right that like that, that's it's there's a reciprocal relationship. And that's part of what makes it that's part of what, to me, that's part of what the Dhamma is, is is understanding like the depths of these reciprocal, reciprocal and intertwined relationships that we're in with one another.
Host 1:01:31
You wrote an article on the lion's roar, which is a Buddhist Publication called Why Buddhists should support the resistance in Myanmar. So pretty clear where you stand on that. Can you share a bit what you are using this op ed?
Derek Pyle 1:01:47
Yeah, I think think I'm saying something similar that look, we've really we're really we're really intertwined. If you're if you're if you're a Buddhist alive today in the United States, chances are your practice is entwined in some way with with Burma, and that could even just be that you sort of the increased popularity of Buddhism right now, right? I think like the Burmese traditions have have contributed a lot to like, the fact that you can 10% happier what's uh, is he a CNN host, you know, that you could like, you could like turn on mainstream news and like, see a piece about Buddhism, I think, or meditation mindfulness. And I think so it's coming from coming from there. And I think the, the I think it is also about I think it is also about like, colonialism, especially as a as a white person, and someone who's not of Southeast Asian ancestry that has not just doesn't have ancestry that's traditionally linked to Buddhism. Like locating myself within that feels like it's important. It's important to remain connected as much as I can to, to these communities in these places that these traditions come from. And if you look at like something like the United Nations, and these sort of ideas of like, that there are international, you know, there are human rights that we're thinking about internationally. And then when you also think about are the ways in which financial investments fund the violence and like, when you think about all of these ways in which we're connected, I think, I think the, my understanding, and I'm sure, you know, a lot more about this, but it's like, people really, really tried to stop this coup early on, and it was through the incredible civil, civil disobedience movement, the CDM and part of what the sense of like, like, nobody, I don't think anyone wants civil war. I don't think anyone at the beginning of the coup was like, Wouldn't it be great if in if in eight months, we could launch a people's defensive or in response to this, I think that you know, I imagined like, let's stop this coup as soon as possible so we don't have to do that out of a place of desperation. And I think you know, my understanding what with looking at a group like progressive voice, Myanmar, who I, I get updates from, you know, their sense of being. Look, it's it's really, the international community name is inability to sanction and respond to it. The coup is what's forced us as, as people in Myanmar to have to fight, like to have to launch a people's defensive war, essentially, you know, and like that. It's like, it's because our backs are against the wall. And we haven't had the support to do this other ways. And so I think it's, it's, it's thinking about are sort of like inactive what, what is the effect of our what is the cumulative effect, right? of Buddhists in the United States not being willing or able, for whatever reason to enter to support to support? I think we can say nonviolent solutions, right, like our inability to support the CDM, for instance, and the sank the sanctions from our own country, or past the better Burma Act, or whatever, has led to this increasingly desperate situation in Myanmar, where the military continues to just go be able to wreak so much havoc and destruction and terror. That it's that the lack of support has, that there's a cause and effect, you know, whether we should or we shouldn't, but that there's a cause and effect and acknowledging that there is that there is this cause and effect, and that there has been a really concerted plea for people in the United States to, to do something and by and large. We haven't, you know, people are saying, hey, help us out. We need the internet. People in Myanmar, for my understanding, you're saying we need the international community support? And I think, yeah, we haven't been we haven't been able to figure it out. By and large, obviously, there's been a lot of good things. But by and large, we're not there.
Host 1:07:06
Yeah, no, no, we're absolutely not. And you your your characterize the history of the past year correctly, that the Burmese people went out and protested in a wide range of creative nonviolent ways from, you know, from, from the civil disobedience movement to protest in the streets to almost a festival, carnival like atmosphere to then when things got more serious doing, they had slow driving day or drop your vegetables in the street day or things that that would just try to impede the normal runnings of society to non violently and creatively show that they weren't following along. And then the military started shooting people in the head in the middle of the street, they started abducting and torturing people, they started beating people to death, doctors, monks, children, elderly, on and on just a list of deplorable inhumane actions that anyone who's been watching the top at all for the past number of decades, just knew was coming down the line, because this is the kind of evil that we're dealing with on a par with Nazi regime or Imperial Japanese. And so we're now at the point that there have been some groups that have taken up some measure of arm resistance, whether that's actually going through training oneself or whether it's supporting in any number of indirect ways. And one of the things you wrote to me before the interview, was that quote, it took a while to work through my own feelings, how to locate myself in relation to the resistance and quote, and I presume that when you're speaking about situating, yourself, in your understanding the resistance, you're speaking probably more about the armed resistance than the non violent part, which obviously, you're a major advocate of this has been something incredibly challenging for Buddhists and meditators everywhere to determine the role of some kind of a defense, or right to protect that, when faced with such evil as you know, as you listen to that was the subject of most of my interview with Bhikkhu Bodhi is where those lines fell. And so and so you as with many Buddhists, and meditators around the world, in Myanmar, and outside reconciling with that is extremely difficult, and it's quite a personal journey.
Derek Pyle 1:09:34
And then, yeah, more, more difficult to locate my own thoughts and feelings and in relation to the people's defensive war and things like that. And I think part of the difficulty is like, it's like, well, who asked me, you know, like, part of it is like, it's not even really like it's not even really my like, well, who cares what I I think you know, like, like, it's not that I'm not the one living through this, right, like, none of this is about me or my own values or even, you know, the people I talk to on a daily basis here in the United States that, you know, that are not involved in these struggles. But I think I think in general, one of one of the things I find myself wrestling with there's a book called Full Spectrum resistance by a by author, Eric McBay. And he looks at all of these different resistance movements, you know, like, sort of, and, and including, say, like, civil rights and fights for black liberation in the, in the 50s, and 60s and 70s in the States. And then also, like, the African National Congress, fighting to end apartheid in South Africa, but then also like, mentioning, like, farmers, rebellions in Oklahoma in the 1930s, you know, there's like, all these different and he's looking at, he's talking about full spectrum resistance is like, all these different ways we can fight for a better world. And, and his sort of take is like, that, essentially, resistance movements are more effective, right, like more likely to sort of win are more likely to, to create, you know, to sort of, you know, create a world that folks want to live in and push back against causes of violence and oppression. He says resistance movements are more effective if there is an amount of armed resistance, but not not the, that can't be the overwhelming. But that can't be the main tactic used, right? Like if it's the main tactic use, it just leads to these really horrible. You know, like, think about the Khmer Rouge or something, right? Like, that's a terrible revolution. I don't think anyone wants that kind of revolution. But did a degree of armed resistance actually makes mass mobilization more effective? And, and, like, I think part of my own wrestling is I think, I actually believe that that's probably true. But I don't want it to be true. And I don't want to be one of the people doing the armed resistance. And I don't, and I don't want I don't even quite know how to situate myself, like what is a nonviolent resistance movement? And does that actually exist? You know, like, and so I picked up this book, because someone like Dr. King is in the States, he's like, the epitome of this, right? He's like, we can, we can overthrow our oppressors. But non violently, and so as, and I think often that's used to then sort of say, and anyone who's not doing that you're doing it wrong, because you should be. And there's other you know, I think there's a lot of folks who have sort of pointed to, is that really, the history? Like is that really what happened in the civil rights movement in the states and so I picked up this book, this nonviolent stuff will get you killed by Charles Cobb, who was a field secretary for snick, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, you know, work, you know, active during the Civil Rights Movement and in the south in the United States in the 50s and 60s, and and this whole book he's also a quite a renowned journalist and a you know, African American man and and his premise is that sort of the Civil Rights Movement used used nonviolent resistance as a tactic right like voter registry, he tells stories of people going to vote voter registration, and that you know, like this old grandma, she's going to vote and she would say to some to one of the snick organizers or whatever here hold my gun while I go to the courthouse right like like he's saying that actually in the south in in black southern culture at that time guns were very much a part of it and and and black people being armed as a way to to protect themselves against Klansmen doing night night rides, you know, that that was just part of the culture. So actually, while there was the someone like Dr. King, giving these really eloquent speeches which even him, you know, by the time he's sort of like the end of his life, he's inviting Stokely Carmichael, who coined the term black power to be there. And, you know, when he's giving the speech against the Vietnam War, I mean, his his own positions are changing over time. And more complicated than history sometimes leads it. But I think, to get back to this, it's sort of like, there were leaders in the civil rights movement, who really took really firm, principled stances around non violence in their rhetoric was really rooted in that. But at the same time, the rank and file members had a whole range of perspectives on what they thought was effective and not effective and necessary. And, and so it's sort of like does does, one of the places I've come to it is like, does this? It's a question and I don't know the answer, but like, does this quote unquote, non violent? Can we do socially engaged or politically engaged or fight for liberation, you know, sort of People's Liberation? Can we do that? And only? What like, is it sort of a myth to say that you can do that and never be associated with anything that that involves violence, and I think we think about, like, the uprising for black lives. And in the last couple of years, you know, last summer here in the States, and people were like, if you use nine, one, like 911, if you call the police, their perspective, you know, folks in the circuit fighting for black liberation, today, many people's perspective is like, there's this sort of inherent violence going on around the way police, target black communities, and you know, for as many other communities as well. And if you use if you call 911, you're sort of supporting a system of violence, you know, and like this. So there's sort of these questions around like, Are there neutral? Are there neutral, non violent positions, I don't really know, just start, I don't really know as much. But I think we're where I've landed and in, in specific relationship to the struggle in Myanmar, it's like I can I can, writing an article like that, it's like I can support you, I can support people raising awareness, about the struggle in Myanmar and what's going on in Myanmar, like, I can write an article. I can help, you know, in the small, like, we can help like, we're thinking more collectively, we could help fundraise for people who are having, you know, help fundraise for, like, humanitarian needs, right, like medical supplies that people aren't able to get right now, because of the disruption of people's daily lives. We can pressure our legislators to support the firm Act, or for folks in the international community and other groups to recognize the legitimacy of the national unity government or for the UN or the international courts to recognize, you know, the legitimacy of the unit. Like, all there's all these things that you and I and you know, that I know, you're doing much more than I like that we can do, that don't involve you know, picking up a gun or whatever, right, that don't involve armed resistance. And it's sort of like it, it's so it just feels less my overall feelings on the situation. And the people's defensive, or I remember, I was talking to a couple friends in in burmilla, you know, they're Burmese and saying, Well, we, you know, and I said this was before, this was before the people's defensive warhead officially sort of been launched. And I remember saying something like, Well, yeah, we I don't want I don't want a civil war to break out, you know, I just sort of talking about my own values and, and I just immediately felt so dumb, you know? Because they didn't want they don't want a civil war to break out. It's not like they're excited about a civil war, you know, but people feel the necessity of their survival. You know, and, and as you I mentioned like, I can only imagine the, the, the realities folks are having to live in right now, you know, like, knowing that like, knowing that people who are out in the streets demonstrating have disappeared and midnight raids and are being tortured, you know, like the the, and not knowing if a friend is actually passing along information, you know, to help support these midnight rate, like just these horrific situations that people are finding themselves in. And there's so many different ways that we can help and support the resistance or humanitarian aid or just awareness. Like there's so many different ways we can we can engage with these issues. It's still a moving target, I would certainly say that it's still a moving, it's still unfolding. series of questions.
Host 1:21:12
Right. And I think one of the things I talked about in my discussion with Alan Senaki was the idea that some of these so called nonviolent movements, like with Mandela, or Martin Luther King, or Gandhi, they, his, the way they come to be described later emphasizes this non violent part of it almost like it was the non violence of one and it obscures the fact that there were other groups also trying to bring about their own independence and their own freedom and dignity, that we're not necessarily adhering to this. And so in some ways, the non violent one because it was in contrast to these other movements that we're seeing is more dangerous and reckless. And so the way that the history has come to us since is that well, non violence is noble. And that's why it's one that that that's why one. And so it's a bit more complicated than that, also, from talking to other to activists that are engaging in Myanmar and finding different ways to do it. There they have discussed, you know, as you said, no one wants a civil war. And I've heard time and again, tell us what we can do that we haven't done, tell us what we have not tried, if there is a suggestion that can be short of an armed resistance, tell us what that is, because we want to do it. And of course, they're left entirely to themselves. There was very little international support at this time beyond statements, and it is hard for any observer to think of what they haven't tried, you know, when I just had two podcasts discussions will be cool. Bodie. And there was certain moments where he would say, Well, why not do this? Or why not try this, and I would then give him examples of, of ways that that this was attempted and failed. And, and that, and that this was also not a viable option. And it was a rather heartbreaking conversation, because we ended with silence, you know, we ended with no real thought of wisdom left. For, for for how a a non violent ethical stand can proceed given the pure evil they're against. And so I think even if we're not involved directly with the struggle, it's not a question, are we going to take arms or not? It's not even a question for the Burmese, are they going to take arms or not? Because I know many people that are supportive very indirectly of what's going on. I think it's really a mental kind of attitude to take on. Where do I stand with this? Where do I situate not so much? What do I do, but what do I feel about it? And how do I respond?
Derek Pyle 1:23:57
You know, me as some random white dude living in Oregon, calling up people around like, Hey, have you tried this? Or have you tried that or doing that on Twitter or whatever? It's like, well, there's definitely stuff in the States. We haven't tried. Right, like we the reports that justice for Myanmar, you know, justice for Myanmar has been doing these, as I'm sure you know, but just to kind of say they've been doing these really incredible reports on the financial like, who's financing them? The Burmese military, right, like, where's that money coming from? Here are the companies that are that are extracting teak wood, and here's who's importing it to the states. Here's some I think they had some of the freight lines that are shipping it, right, like, here's who's then taking that in manufacturing and turning it into like, a product that consumers can buy. And I think we could we certainly could like think about ways to put pressure on those companies or, you know, like we could think about, okay, if I'm living in Los Angeles, and here's the poor that's importing this, I could flyer the neighborhood, I could do petitions I could get together, I think like raucous society has a lot of interesting materials around like campaign organizing, that can include direct action, like includes a range of tactics. And we could say, people could decide to get people could just do any number of things to like, put pressure on. On these, you could go to the store selling these teak furnitures, and put a sticker on every single one that says, Did you know this? This chair funded genocide? Whatever, you know, like there's, there's a lot of creative ways people could could think about this that we're, we're not doing and it kind of puts the question back on us of like, What haven't we tried, right, like as the kind of the international community? What could if we're really concerned about this issue, what are what more could we try that? That might be helpful, you know?
Host 1:26:28
Right. And that leads to these questions of what can we do? What can someone in Oregon or anywhere for that matter? From a distance do if to engage there's obviously there's, there's a reason to engage? This is a terrible thing happening and people might be stirred to movement listening to this and to want to do something, what range of actions could you suggest that the people can take on who care about the issue?
Derek Pyle 1:26:57
One is just raising more awareness about this, right. So like, if we're part of a sangha, or on a college campus, or they we write a letter to our newspaper, like, there's all kinds of different ways you could raise more awareness, flyers, stickers, like whatever, but just keeping this on people's hearts and minds, right, like, as the as the our news cycle, right? Like, there's a lot of like, there'll be moments where there's a lot of news. And of course, when the coup first started, there's a lot of news from Myanmar, but just keeping it in people's awareness like this is still going on. This is still there's still people fighting for their freedom and for democracy and for human rights and for indigenous ethnic sovereignty, and like all these things that people are fighting for you in Myanmar. So raising awareness, I think, is one thing. And then, of course, anytime you write an article or something like that, it's always good to give people a next step. Right? So I think like, fundraising is another really simple, relatively simple thing to do. Like, I know, this is something you've done a lot of, that's connected to the podcast of raising funds. And I think that's something so like a sangha could host a movie night and then at the end of the, you know, about, you know, film about the struggle and Myanmar and then at the end of it, pass the hat and get the money over there. Right. Like, that's, those are relatively simple things people could do. I think another another strat, another approach would be like, more or more legislative kind of going more to legislative actions. So like, there's I think there's a couple petitions right now, pressuring the the better. The Burma act is is a piece of in the states it's a piece of legislation that's been proposed that includes both increasing sanctions against military connected like individuals and organizations and and then also there in the in the Burma act, there's there's funding for for humanitarian aid and and so that's been proposed, but it hasn't been passed yet. And so like, one could, at the simplest level, you could just sign the petition and circulate that petition in your Sangha and you know, collect a few more signatures for it. At another bigger picture level, let's say someone was working in a you know, a big retreat center or something like getting that retreat center to endorse it and you know, like figuring out a little bit more grassroots. Like graph stops. And as we're talking about grass tops, it's like the bigger the bigger organizations that have more say, right. So there's that there's I think there's also some of the other things I hear people asking for, and I'm sure you have no many other ideas, but like, there's still there's still the national unity government is the people's is the People's Government, right? There's sort of this like fight for, for recognition, who actually is in charge of Burma, you know, Myanmar is sort of, is that is sort of a question like, does the military actually represent the people? Or does the national unity government actually sort of have sovereignty have legitimacy over the country and, and one of the so there are ways we could, you know, again, a sangha could make a statement saying we recognize this national unity government and, and then they could share that with their, you know, local politicians or state politicians. But we as people could also apply this pressure, we don't have to wait for Congress to pass legislative to pass legislative to pass legislation, we could, we could also just say, hey, let's do some community organizing against, against teak wood or against Chevron, I guess, Chevron's off the hook. We can, I mean, we, we could find other reasons to boycott chef. But, but for now, they're withdrawn, you know, so. So we could also really look at, look at what as individuals and communities, I think, especially if we happen to live here, like to go back to Los Angeles, I, you know, looking at looking at the, the lawsuit, like, I can't think of the name offhand. But if you look at this recent tech report from justice, or one of the big companies there, as I think it's an important company is located in Los Angeles. So if you if you have, if you had a series of song goes, for instance, and a few community groups coming together to raise awareness within the city about that company. And maybe people are also doing some protests out at the, at the physical location, you know, really like applying some pressure there. That could potentially be an effective, you know, all these military regimes and violence run on. They have to be funded pressures,
Host 1:32:49
I think the things you're talking about are more like political economic, which are great and involve a certain degree of awareness and knowledge and, and knowing the factors and conditions that are leading to empower the Ramadan to try to take those down and bring awareness and I think that's wonderful. I think there's so many different pathways and ways to engage, though, and financial donation is obviously always helpful. But what I keep coming back to is something that so many Burmese have told me and that's just the human connection of kindness, just to check in with friends that are there, ask them how they're doing, how their day was, let them know that you're a safe person that you have your time and space for them to listen to them Have a good day or a bad day or hard things they need to talk about. And I think simply showing up is so powerful just on its own and doesn't involve any money. It doesn't involve any real self education. It's just just simply being there for someone who is facing a difficult set of circumstances. I think that is a way to support and should not be overlooked and something that we hear time and again, from people over there, how alone they feel and how much how helpful it is to know that someone is thinking and caring about them personally and their country generally. On in those regards. I think simply listening to this podcast fits in that category. It's bearing witness. It's bringing awareness bringing knowledge and understanding and perhaps sharing it with someone else to listen or on social media or writing something about it. I just think there's a word if one is not once brain doesn't work in that way, more artistically poetry and video editing. Whatever else is out there music, there are so many creative ways to be able to contribute and I've seen so many of them from Cafe the the new moon cooperative cafe in Olympia, Washington, which purchased a number of the artwork that was for sale and the from the art auction we didn't do your work with the proceeds. Let's go into humanitarian missions. But beyond the financial contribution, they are a cafe and their mission that's committed to speaking out against injustice and oppression. And so looking away from just the financial support they've given to have a business that is also educating people on what is going on there and standing by them so wonderful and valuable. And I've, I've just heard so many creative stories from so many people and businesses and individuals and initiatives, you know, anything from bake sales, to magazines, to film festivals, to poetry readings, whatever that I think that there, once one makes the decision that one wants to engage that it's just a question of, What am I good at? What are my limitations? What time do they have available? What what's easy for me, what do I take joy in I think taking joy in something is very important. Because if you take on a action of advocacy, that is hard for you, and your heart's not really in it, it's going to be harder to make it sustainable. But if it's something that is, in essence, who you are, if you are a person who loves poetry, then it makes a lot of sense to go as far as you can in poetry, whether it's your own, or, or magazines, or engaging others or getting words out there, or whatever it is, there's an of course we know, the regime is killing so many of its poets. So I think whatever, wherever one finds joy, and after deciding to engage, there are all these pathways open to being able to pursue and find the most appropriate course of action.
Derek Pyle 1:36:40
Yeah, I think that's great. And I think yeah, I mean, it kind of goes, like when we think about to think about social movements. I mean, I think they're always they're an ecosystem. And so there's all these different, there's all these different kinds of there's all these different kinds of ways I think, yeah, like the, the art the art auction, the you're involved in, and yeah, just seeing the art, right, like how vital art is to, to resistance movements and change and People's Liberation, I think, is a really great example of all the different creative ways that that we can do these things. And this is a very large movement for resistance and, and liberation and democracy. And, you know, this is a huge struggle, and there's no, there's no one person in charge, you know, like, it's not like, free listen, you know, listeners that may be sitting there sort of thinking, Well, I really want to help, but I don't, you know, am I the, you know, like, there might not be anyone who comes and gives you the authority to make the art, you know, or to, or to bring the petition around, but it might be okay to just, I think in general, there is an ask that we hear in the, in the international community get involved. And, and just, it's just like, we can just, when I wrote to Alan snarky, I was just a random view. I mean, I had my own bat, but he didn't know me at all. I was just like, hey, I think I know how to build websites. You know, what if we turn this? What if we turn this letter into a petition, and I can help build the website? And yeah, there's just lots of ways to, to get involved.
Host 1:38:29
Yeah, yeah. So the last question I want to ask is, you wrote previously that quote, liberalism is well suited to take superficial Buddhist ideology and use it as an excuse for inaction? And quote, can you share more of what you meant by this?
Derek Pyle 1:38:51
There are many organizations, for instance, that are sort of nominally in favor of progressive change, but are actually may be preventing that change from happening. And I think what you were talking about and what you mentioned, talking about with Allen as well, like, sort of the way Dr. King's legacy has been rewritten, right, or the or the legacy of the civil rights movement, even even the you know, like, we can even read the hip, we can even hear in school, the history of the civil rights movement and think it was all Dr. King and not like this 1000s and 1000s of people right, it was like, mobilized and and I think there's this there's this like, a liberal approach to social change can can sometimes. Freeze People, I think like it can. It can. Like, it's again, this idea that there is a neutral position. And, and, and questioning like, when is there a neutral position? And when are there? When Isn't there one? Like, there are moments where you have to pick aside like, you're either that's part of the idea is like, there are moments where you're you have to decide. Okay, my my friend is involved in the is going out into the streets? Well, and do I and I know that this is illegal right now, do I report them to the military? And they might be disappeared? And? Or do I? Do I actually go out with them? Or do I do nothing? Right? You know, that there are these moments where we're actually not neutral that or that neutrality might not exist in the way that we kind of think it does. And I think that like you know, I would say sort of being, like, being white, for instance, like I'm either it on one level, I neither just sort of like going along with all these benefits of systemic white supremacy or I'm fighting against, you know, and, and I think one of the things that we see from kind of this liberal This, again, and this is this is using the word liberal, sort of, in the context of kind of more radical or revolutionary social movement changes. And then, of course, there's just this long history of people. people's resistance, you know, what I mean? Like, like, Burma just has this incredible history of that. But I was really struck by how quickly ever people got on board with the CDM. And, you know, the National strikes and that, like, Do you Do you have a sense of what? In the States, there's people who talk about like, Gene Sharp, are you familiar with his work? Yeah, so gene, though, like, in the States, there's sort of people that are like, you know, if we just follow the Gene Sharp playbook, this is how we resist coos. And this works, you know what I mean? But do you have a sense of like, what, what kind of the, are there? And maybe the answer is no, and it's just a, it's just a whole ecosystem, but are there kind of like, guiding influences that kind of whether they're theories or strategies or belief systems or organizations or whatever, that kind of laid some of the foundation to where that was so possible to happen as part of the resistance? Where are there particular lineages that you see that resistance coming from? And how would you describe what those are, and maybe an example here in the states would be like we in the uprising for black lives? Last summer, I would say like, the Black Lives Matter movement and the killings of Trayvon Martin, and other and Mike Brown and others in Ferguson, like really kind of seemed to set the stage for them this uprising that lasted for months and months and months. Does that make sense? That was kind of like part of the lineage of how that idea got so embedded in the, in the culture and then was was sort of brewing and like police abolition as a concept, I think, like a group like critical resistance and the work that's been done around the prison abolition movement and thinking about the prison industrial complex, like sort of set the stage for police abolition to become something that would become like an everyday household word. And I guess I'm curious if you have any sense of the sort of, yeah, the lineages that sort of underlied CDM for instance, being so so I set the stage for that, in the way that it was, does that make sense?
Host 1:45:05
Well, I mean, I think all this stuff happened quite organically, I don't think there was any playbook for it, because this is a generation that never faced anything like this. And so they just went along. And you know, CBM happened, because with the doctors, the doctors were the ones who edit and people followed and protected them and then follow their example. And I think the the overall resistance movement has grown out of that, and his has been, I think, in the animals to come the, what the Burmese did, as a resistance will be studied everywhere. And yet it failed, it failed, because they are facing a fascist, inhumane, evil enemy, that does not respect or is not cowed by any measure of, of humanity, and that and why the soldiers follow the orders would be something else to look at their conditioning and their, their belief in in the fascist state and in the the importance of the tama not being able to provide the Unity they purport to provide. But whatever the reason, it's, their their most ingenious ways of nonviolent, did not work anymore, and I don't know what they possibly could have done. That was not suggested, you know, I, they, they did things beyond even anyone's imagination and what they could have done and, and, and it was simply not respected. Because, you know, this is, I think, when non violent movie, when non violent movements are studied in the US, colonial England, South Africa, these are different systems than Nazi Germany or at the top. And, and I think whatever value some of those books might have, and I think there are definitely there's much value that those books and strategies do have. I think that the the nature of a city police department in the United States is simply incomparable to contrast against the organization of the tatmadaw. And those looking at what the protest movements are doing only go so far, because whatever has happened in this country, the police are not openly shooting in the head, people are multiple people on multiple days in the street and beating them to death in broad daylight that is simply not happening here. Without where you and where there is no recourse not only there was no recourse but they are told by their by the highest authorities to do that. And so I think these are just very different systems that were the the analogy only goes so far.
Derek Pyle 1:47:56
Yeah, that's really that's really interesting. And, I mean, it makes me think about like I think in in the States, the folks that, you know, this, like, this concept that the conception of folks who view themselves as Anti Fascist and are like, thinking about what it means to fight threats of fascism that is maybe much more linked to like, arising is much more linked to looking at things like Nazi Germany and like, what, what it means to prevent something like that happening, which I think for, like you're saying there are night and day differences between the reality of Myanmar currently and sort of what's what's happening in the States, I just think it's important that we all keep, keep collaborating together and keep working together, across you know, really across the, across the ocean here and then together, just to be just to keep, keep figuring out the things we can do. You know, this and the ways we can support the really incredible I mean, I just have so much respect and admiration for the courage and creativity and dedication that folks in Myanmar have that are that are resisting, resisting, resisting the violence there and fighting for human rights and fighting for ethnic sovereignty and all of these things. It's just doing. I find it you know, heartbreaking and terrifying that this is a reality people have to live in. And also incredibly inspiring. that people are so so courageous and creative and rambunctious in the midst of all that, like it's just really it's really it's really powerful. So that's, uh you know, yeah, I think I think that's sort of the final thing I would say.
Host 1:50:31
And thank you. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for spending time with us today and really appreciate it.
Derek Pyle 1:50:37
Yeah, thank you for having
1:50:55
me man, no man no man. No man
Host 1:51:20
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