Transcript: Episode #113: Spring is Coming
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Brian Haman, which appeared on July 22, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 06:11
yeah. I'm talking to Brian Hammond. He's the co author of the recent poetry anthology that appeared picking off new shoots will not stop the spring. It's an amazing collection that catalogues not only the recent and ongoing revolution, but also previous periods of conflict and revolution 2007 and 1888. And there's a lot to discuss about this really remarkable work. So Brian, thanks so much for joining us here at insight Myanmar podcast.
Brian Haman 07:05
Thanks very much. It's a pleasure to join you.
Host 07:08
So you co collaborated on this project with cocoa fat. Can you share a bit about how you met him and where the idea came from to work on this?
Brian Haman 07:22
Sure. So among the many things that I do, I'm a co editor of the Shanghai Literary Review, and I edit the the interview and the book review sections. And in 2019, I reached out to Coco in order to see if he would review a book that had been published by British Council. The book was about Myanmar. And it was quite an extraordinary book. It was a unique five year project that was carried out by British Council and the title of the book is hidden worlds hidden sign hidden words hidden worlds contemporary short stories from Myanmar. It was edited by Lucas Stewart and Alfred Birnbaum. The book itself was first published in 2015. The English translation was 2017. And it was essentially a collection of collection of works that took place over a four year period. It was a nationwide program that carried out by the British Council that used literature as a platform to support freedom of expression, creativity and social change within Myanmar's ethnic nationality states. And so I thought given Coco's background both in poaching, obviously, he's from Myanmar, he would be an ideal person to review the book, he kindly agreed to do that. And so that was, that was how Coco and I first met each other. And then following the the unfortunate events in February 2021. And the coup in Myanmar, Coco and I got back in touch with each other. And we're trying to figure out what we could do in order to support people on grounds. Because at the time, there seemed to be this tremendous outpouring of not only poetry and prose, but also art as well. And a lot of international media, were picking up on this. So you had stories in New York Times in The Guardian and elsewhere. So cataloging or profiling, the tremendous cultural outpourings of the people there, as they were reacting to these terrible events. And so we came up with this idea to anthologized, the works that were being written and disseminated largely online. And one of the one of the underlying ideas behind the anthology was to preserve so much of what had been written because as it was being disseminated online, the thinking was that it might actually disappear into this kind of ephemeral digital abyss. So we we started to think about possible publishers, who might be interested in producing Book. And then we started to contact various publishers and so on. And ethos was one of the first ethos books in Singapore was one of the first publishers that we, we contacted, and they really took to the project from very beginning. They were very interested in it, and they wanted to support it. It was also important to both Coco and myself that we had a regional publisher as well, who, who I suppose geographically, as well as, to a certain extent politically and culturally and socially, to kind of proximity to walk is going on, in a sort of stake in, in what was happening in the country at that time. And so that's largely the genesis of the project.
Host 10:47
Right, so then now you have a contract to do this book, you have enormous materials that are out there in the ether in all kinds of form, this an explosion of creativity, as you mentioned, and now you have this immense task of somehow having to collect and review and collate and ultimately select pieces that you want to represent in this anthology in grouping together thematically to be able to present the feeling and preserve the sediments of this time. So how did you go about that monumental task of having to choose what method grade and what didn't? And what were you looking for? What kind of balance were you trying to achieve in that?
Brian Haman 11:30
It was, it was a very, I mean, it was an interesting process, it was a fluid process. Early on, for example, there were these tremendous outpourings online, and so there was a lot of material from which to choose. And so, you know, there were various criteria, for example, there's the obvious aesthetic criteria, that wasn't just reproducing or anthologized in or cataloging, preserving, you know, all of the writings that had to have kind of aesthetic quality to it. And cocoa being a poet was obviously well positioned to, to, to make those kinds of aesthetic decisions, or judgments. But early on, so much of the writing was quite optimistic, which was very interesting, because you had, you had a spirit of optimism, your whole spirit of, of how can I put this off? There was a sense that this is something that could be this is something that could be combated through nonviolent resistance through mass protests through people coming together from all walks of life, and all segments of society. And so this spirit of optimism was very much present in so much of the writing that was emerging at the time. And as the military began, its its violent crackdown, which happened extremely quickly, there's a certain tone tonal shift in the writing on we really wanted to capture that as well. So there was obviously an interest in kind of aesthetic criteria. There was also an interest in preserving these kinds of shifts that were reacting in many ways to the events on the ground. There are also practical difficulties as well in trying to trying to really get in touch with, with people who are not only writers, one of the things that was particularly striking was that so many of the people who contributed or who were themselves writing, were not writers, they came really from all walks of life. So there was a problem of access to because of censorship because of the, you know, the need to the need to preserve a certain degree of anonymity, just for the the safety and the welfare of the contributors. So there were there were a number of things that we had to sort of consider as we were, as we were gathering these writings, there was also the issue of translation to CoCo was doing most if not all of the translation work for the first third of the book. And then obviously, the book incorporated poetry from other aspects of Myanmar's history from 2020 to 2010. And then reaching back from 2010 to 1988. So, I mean, there were these various moving parts involved.
Host 14:38
Right, so that was another decision you made not only to characterize the moment, but to go back during the transition period to the Saffron Revolution to 1988. What led to that decision to want to not just look at this current moment of creative expression, but to want to capture it in previous cycles as well.
Brian Haman 15:00
seemed to it seemed to both of us, it seemed to many people actually that Myanmar was was regressing that the longer this was no, this was happening longer this, this kind of violence and this kind of these sorts of atrocities really were happening. The more Myanmar seem to regress back in time. And so we were drawing on that history, in order to illustrate that point that actually, this was, this was a tremendous regression within Myanmar, that was, that was likely is likely to set the country back decades, if not generation or so. And so that's why we were drawing on on previous history. And also there were, there were resonances, between the poetry and the prose that was being written in 2021. And the poetry and prose that had been written that had preceded it. And so there were these thematic connections as well.
Host 15:52
Like, what can you give an example of what kind of thematic connection you found between poetry from different eras?
Brian Haman 15:58
Well, in terms of resistance, in terms of the violence in terms of the kind of indomitable human spirit in terms of in terms of the, the belief that poetry could be not only an expression of these universal human values, and fears, but that poetry could be, and prose, I should add, could be a path to resistance as well. And that it could be something that that couldn't incite that it could be something that could resist, that could be something that could be in many ways weaponized as well.
Host 16:35
So these are some of the similarities thematically. Did you identify any divergences? Did you identify any places where you saw the artists today doing something above and beyond what was seen in previous eras?
Brian Haman 16:49
Think from me coming at it from from largely from an outsider's perspective. Because I hadn't really been involved with with writing from Myanmar, and generally culture from Myanmar. I think it was quite extraordinary the extent to which the poetry reflected the violence, I was quite struck by by the the extreme forms of violence that were being inflicted upon people of Myanmar by the use. And some of that is borne out in the poetry that we catalog, but also some of the stories but in the images as well, I mean, the book opens, for example, with a, an image of black and white image of a bamboo wall, with a small bullet hole in it. And it was quite a moving till I remember when Coco received a poem and the image and it was in reference to I think, a young, a young child who was sitting inside their home and straight bullet went through the wall. And the child was struck by the bullet. And so you know, that's, that's sort of random violence. And that sort of that really drove home the the the brutality of the events on the ground. And that's the sorts of things that, that many, so many people in Myanmar I'm facing. And I didn't, I didn't necessarily get that sense in poetry from the preceding years.
Host 18:26
Yeah, I think that's really fair. And I think that it also touches upon my reaction and my feeling when I was reading it. When I went into the book I was I, just from my background, I've, since the coup has happened, I've done I don't know how many hours of interviews I've logged, personally talking to guests of all different backgrounds, and hearing so many stories and getting those stories out. And then beyond the only interviews I've done, where I've listened to things firsthand, just the the daily news that I've read, and just how much information and stories I've had, since this happened often in real time, often, in some cases, actually, somewhat were involved in a remote way trying to help in real time developing crisis. And so when I got the book, and I started reading, I was expecting to come across a number of familiar themes. And I thought, I've been hearing so many of these stories before and they've been impacting me emotionally for so long. That it's there's going to be some kind of similar resonance here and kind of thinking more that this is a book this is this is going to be a good book for people who might not know about the conflict or might not have the proximity that I have to hear stories probably for the first time that are going to be very impactful. But for me, there's probably going to be some kind of recycling of, of familiar themes and motifs I've heard and I've been been involved with and one of the things that really amazed me and impressed me move me about the book was just on one hand of course it was familiar because I've been living through this every day although remotely but very intimately involved with the daily of transcend, and stories. So of course, there was a familiarity, but it moved me and impacted me beyond anything that I was expecting just from the proximity that I already had. And it was just story after story was was so powerful, it's so impactful, you know, there were there were times at the end of the chapter, I would just have to put the book down and just hold what I had read. And I was I was really just amazed that as someone like me, who had been so involved for so long with this, that the stories on top of all that we're still having the kind of impact they were. And as I reflected about why, why is this getting through when I've heard so many when I've been in the middle of so many, why are are these collections now going beyond even beyond the year plus of my interactions with us, it was the feeling as you talk about it was this intimate feeling of trying to describe how how it actually feels. And this is, this is an interesting thing to just spend a moment with, with examining, because it goes back to I remember, in the first few months of the protests, I was talking to a friend living in Yangon. And the thing he kept saying that really resonated with me and kind of sent me on a mission and hearing hearing him describe it. As he said, You know, I read all the reports, I read all the articles, I see the news clips, I see the posts, and nothing I see actually describes how it feels like there's just this feeling that I don't know how to express I don't know how to impart. And this individual ended up writing a series of journals over the course of several months. And he did an extraordinary job of describing this feeling and this very mundane reality of, of how it felt. And since him saying that, because I to be clear, I've not been I've lived in Myanmar many years, but I have not been there since February 2021. So many of my interviews are really driven by this one statement, he told me that, that this feeling is not getting out. And so in some of the more impactful interviews, or even parts of interviews I've had, it's been when the guest is describing the human loss, the the human sense of loss and of hopelessness and of struggle, and of trying to overcome that as well, all these things together. But when it just comes in these human terms of of trying to overcome that it really moves you. And I think that that was the quality that was found in these pages that and that's why I really want to encourage all listeners, even those who think they've as me, I've been following this very closely, and probably many have, there's still something in here that rises above the large events and the stories and the basic news and just goes to the level of humanity of what it actually feels like to be in those moments. And it's just expressed so powerfully and really with, with the, the correct devastation of how it actually feels and and I think that's something for whatever reason, that's something that is just not coming out to the extent that it should be. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that, bringing that humanity out what you seen in how the stories from Myanmar has been coming out, and how you're able to find these works and bring these works that, that managed to break through that plane to some extent, and really just deliver this message in real human terms?
Brian Haman 23:28
Yeah, I think, I think that's really one of the reasons why Coco and I agreed to agree to describe it in terms of witnessed poems, in essence, rather than poetry as resistance or protest. And, and obviously, when I say poetry, I also mean essays as well, because the book has both. The point was really to offer a platform to a certain extent on mediated, so not filtered through the media and so on. Obviously, there is a kind of filtering mechanism at work because Coco and I were both editors. And so we were selecting, which works to choose. But we had a tremendous number of works that from which to choose. And I would say the vast majority of them made it into the anthology, I should mention, actually, that the very beginning, multi dock was instrumental in, in connecting both cocoa myself with with a lot of the writers and contributors on the ground and Myanmar. And she herself contributed as well. And really, the focus was, as I mentioned, allowing the people and their voices to emerge and to speak for themselves. And to really be the sort of the eyes and the ears, in the mouths for what's going on not not to have it filtered through through for example, as I mentioned, the New York Times in the guardian or whatever other media was reporting on it. And, but but rather to allow the people there to do bear witness to all of these horrific things that they were experiencing and seeing on a daily basis. And as I mentioned, early on, the mood was very much an optimistic one. And so the pieces themselves weren't really weren't really sort of ripe for that kind of violence. There was a sense of optimism pieces described to people coming together non violently, gathering the streets, peaceful protests, and so on. I think we have one piece that describes, you know, how people would bring food to each other, and others would bring water and others would then clean up and so on. And so there was this, there was a spirit of collaboration and, and sort of mutual solidarity and so on. But that was quickly shattered. As so many people began to suffer from the similar fate. I mean, you had large numbers of people curiously being shot in the head, I think one of the earliest people to to become a victim of this kind of violence was a teenage girl who was a peaceful protest, and she was wearing a moped or motorcycle motorbikes helmet. And the bullet pierced that and she, she was shot in the head, she died. And so you have this, as I mentioned, you have this transition, that was very much sort of reacting to or cataloging or, you know, describing the the escalation of violence by the winter. So yeah, as I mentioned, it's very much about, about allowing the people on the ground, to bear witness to these kinds of traumas themselves.
Host 26:36
Right, so this was a some process and collecting the different works and looking at which pieces to include. And, of course, as you were doing this, things were changing in Myanmar, going from nonviolent protest to the crackdown, and the mood and the poetry and the stories you were collecting also indicated this shift as it was going on. So this was looking from the perspective of the organizers of you and Coco, that this was the from the inception of the idea to do this to the process of actually doing it. And as things were changing on the ground and shifting this took some time and changes, I'm sure as this process was going on. So I'm wondering if what as you were doing this was perhaps surprising to you, what was unexpected as you started to do the project and with any expectations or thoughts you had about how it would go and then as it started to turn out, and you started to bring the pieces together and look at what you had was there, what what, what manifested that might have been different or unexpected from what your thoughts were going into it.
Brian Haman 27:51
I think again, I was struck by the extreme levels of violence, I just that that to me was, was notes quite moving, it's quite difficult to deal with, it's quite difficult to read those pieces that were coming in daily, monthly, and so on. That was you know, from an editorial perspective, that was that was quite challenging, emotionally, psychologically, as well, to read, you know, about these, these, you know, the traumas that so many were experiencing family traumas, you know, friends, being, being jailed, being tortured, being killed, and so on. And as I said, Before, I have a certain distance from it, I can imagine it must have been unspeakably difficult for someone like Coco who had friends, poets, because of when Kathy and so on, or who were, who were murdered on her no longer with us, sadly. And, and so but yeah, I don't I don't know if I had any particular expectations going into the book. But that was, again, one of the things that particularly struck me the kind of barbarism involved with with in terms of the military's reaction to to, to what had started out as largely, if not entirely peaceful, non violent protests.
Host 29:17
Right. And you mentioned these poets names that were killed during since the coup develop. There have been many poets that have been killed or arrested, tortured. The regime has certainly gone after people have high profile of artists of different stripes and of poets particularly, why do you think it is that this military regime sees poetry and poets as such a special threat that needs to be stamped out?
Brian Haman 29:46
That's a good question. I mean, we all know about the power of the written word. We all know how it can mobilize people for good or ill. So I was listening to a talk that Coco had participated Didn't with one of our translators kind of one, and others, and they were talking about the military's response to this, in terms of the type of poetry that is producing and disseminating. And so poetry writing, obviously can convince people, it can move people, to, in this case, resist what's happening, to protest, to catalog to document, but it can also do the opposite as well. So writing, as we know, is a tremendously, you know, tremendously powerful medium. And that's one of the reasons why so much of the writing that was was being done online, obviously had to be done anonymously, because it presented a certain threat to the respective writers. And it's also why it's obviously being censored too. So yeah, I mean, I, you know, I think, I think it really speaks to the power of written word and the extent to which, even in our digital age, you know, that that, that these can mobilize these poems in these, these short prose pieces can mobilize people, and the extent to which this, you know, this, this presents a threat, it presents a threat to the military, to the government that has on its side overwhelming force, and yet something like a line of poetry can threaten that force.
Host 31:27
Yeah, yeah, I want to ask you, as well, we a number of the guests we have on our we speak on Myanmar exclusively there. And so when we're talking about some of these events, as they're unfolding, we're really just looking with a narrower focus just of how the story has been developing a Myanmar and yet you from your position, you've been an editor in looking at poetry in a number of different places, you have a wider context to look at. And so zooming out a bit and looking at kind of looking at Myanmar as a juxtaposition or comparison to other societies, the power of poetry or the role of poetry and other conflicts or in other societies that are less than free. What, what stands out in terms of how you've seen the expression in Myanmar, and what what stands out is and what divergence as well as what kind of similar themes and in the human expression, the human desire to want to express oneself freely? Do you see as consistent with other projects that you've done in other countries?
Brian Haman 32:40
Well, the obvious case is, is, is Ukraine, and what's happening in Ukraine, visa vie, Russian invasion, and occupation. But obviously, there are regional, I don't know if comparisons, but there there are regional movements, resistance movements, and so on. So again, the obvious ones that come to mind are Hong Kong, Thailand, and Taiwan earlier. And we see, you know, we see these kinds of, we see these reactions to political violence to, to, you know, to dictatorial authoritarian regimes, on the part of artists and writers and so on, we see the power of culture, to speak out, to clarify what's happening, and to act in some ways as a as a sort of a form of resistance. And this is, this is something that is not only you know, this is, this is an age old story, and this we can go back to the ancient Greeks and so on. There is this history of war, poetry, and writing in general and cultural reactions to, to war and violence. Throughout throughout history, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter, whether it's, whether it's in Europe or Southeast Asia, or whatever the case may be. So this seems to this seems to be something archetypal, in in, in terms of, in terms of human beings and how they react to, to, in this case, state sponsored violence and terrorism, to military occupation, and so on. And it's happening in Ukraine, it's happening in Myanmar, it continues to happen in Myanmar, sadly. 2022 started, obviously, in 2021. So yeah, I mean, you know, it's, it's, I'm not totally sure that I can really speak to that. It's an extraordinarily long and broad subject. Sure, sure. But there does seem to be something within the human spirit that that finds an outlet, in poetry, and in art, and also something that you know, that there's some impetus there to put these experiences in words or images, and to use those words and images as an outlet or as a form of resistance or as some and calling attention to what's happening.
Host 35:04
Concerning this specific anthology that you've released, I don't want to put you on the spot. But I am curious if there were certain particular pieces that stood out and that had that really stayed with you for some time and resonated and you kept coming back to were there. Were there any particular pieces in here that really spoke to you specifically?
Brian Haman 35:27
Yeah, I mean, there was there was one that that I do come back to, and it's weather appropriately. I suppose, given the time in which we're recording this podcast. It's entitled spring by knob. And it's quite an extraordinary common. I don't know if, if you could read it. Now. It's not a very long poem. It'd be wonderful. It's quite extraordinary. So it's a tongue spring, spring, seized, turned into swallows, swallows caged turned into clammers clammers silenced, turned into scenery, scenery covered up, turned into Eyes, eyes, forced shut, turned into Dreams. Dreams denied, turned into maps, maps destroyed, turned into memories. Memories deleted, turned into roads, roads, blockaded, turned into ancillary legs, legs, smashed, turned into wings, wings, clipped, turned into breeze, breeze detained, turned into Storm, Storm imprisoned, spawned a million offspring. Those offspring are our in breath and out breath swallows in and out of our nostrils our spring I think that's just such a tremendously powerful poem. i The language is obviously very simple. The imagery is very down to earth, it's of the Earth, it's it, it doesn't use the sort of metaphorical language and yet, it conveys so much breadth and so much meaning in these very clipped lines. It's just an extraordinary poem.
Host 37:19
Yeah, yeah, right. And of course, the thing that stands out to me just hearing it the second time here is the mention of the in breath and out breath, which is the most basic meditative instructions that that one can follow in a monastery or meditation center, just observing the in breath and out breath. And so bringing that bringing a sense of mindfulness to and cultural reference to this overall scene has been painted. That's, that's quite powerful.
Brian Haman 37:46
Yeah, yeah, it really is. It really is. And I often, you know, I often asked myself how, how people can really have the, you know, the, the presence of mind really, to sit down and right, amidst such extraordinarily difficult circumstances, to be able to reflect on that to be able to reflect on the kinds of traumas that that they're experiencing ongoing traumas. These are, these are traumas that are still quite fresh. And to have that presence of mine, and to be able to sit down and to write, to write that out to be able to articulate that is also quite extraordinary.
Host 38:27
Yeah, yeah, for sure. What kind of reception has has the book received? What kind of feedback? Have you heard?
Brian Haman 38:34
It's largely been reviewed, I think. It's, it's very difficult to ontology. And I suppose in many ways, it's because of the difficulty. It's difficult to write about it. Because it is an anthology that deals with with violence and death, and murder and torture, and, you know, all of these, all of these, you know, sort of horrific experiences, but but as a collection, it has gotten, it has gotten I hesitate using the word but it's gotten positive reviews. Right?
Host 39:09
Yeah. Are there any other projects that you and Coco thought have discussed doing and as this conflict has stretched on?
Brian Haman 39:16
Cocoa has a number of projects, and I suppose I'll let him describe those because he obviously knows far more about about those respective projects. There. There is a project that I'm trying to get off the ground here in Vienna, which is to have a an exhibition of art from Myanmar, resistance or otherwise, at a local gallery here, in order to try and continue to draw attention to the fact that the situation in Myanmar is still unresolved, it's ongoing, and people are still suffering. People are sadly, still dying. And so this is both an F this would be both an effort to draw attention to the situation but also to try and support the people on the ground the artists And organizations and so on, that are continuing to, to be advocates for democracy and so on human rights and, and so on.
Host 40:14
That sounds great, I hope that that does get off the ground. And I think finding a way to bring to to amplify the voices of those that are resisting and to bring out their creative spirit, I think that that is a message that that's a way for many people who might not know so much about Myanmar is a country or culture or part of the world or geography, it's a way for them to enter into something universal and something that that can touch us all. And no matter what, where we live, what culture we're in, even what what what time we're in, it brings us it binds us together, even centuries apart. So it's a very powerful thing.
Brian Haman 40:51
Yeah, I mean, you We touched briefly on Ukraine, and obviously, the situation in Ukraine has really mobilized people throughout the world. And one of the things that I suppose I was a bit I don't know I was a bit perhaps disappointed by was the fact that what was happening in Myanmar didn't seem to register internationally. The way that the way that it has in Ukraine, and I don't mean to single out Myanmar, obviously, their their wars, ongoing wars throughout the rest of the world, I think on most of the continents of the world, a war of one kind or another. And, you know, one of the hopes with this project was subsequent projects, like the gallery show that I mentioned, would be really to highlight that, that this is still something that's ongoing, and that, you know, these are these are universal condition, universal reactions to this kind of violence, that that you know, that we have this idea of kind of imagined communities based on based on various criteria, but that we are all part of this kind of human community, I suppose. And that suffering in places like Myanmar and elsewhere, is no less, no less worthy of our attention than suffering sort of people elsewhere. And really, to kind of keep the spotlight on Myanmar, because the situation, as I mentioned, sadly, is still an ongoing one. And it seems to be an intractable situation to I mean, it doesn't seem like there is an end in sight, sadly, because it seems to be the case that both sides are very much entrenched now, to kind of back and forth.
Host 42:49
And I think that your work does a brilliant job at doing that of breaking through those headlines, breaking those intermediaries, as you mentioned, was actually a conscious intention on your part, and bringing those voices and I know for me, I'm in the US now. And when I meet people outside casually in the conversation comes up that I that I'm connected to Myanmar people that I don't know me previously. I'm amazed that even among people who I would just from talking to them for a few minutes give the appearance of being somewhat well informed, progressive, concerned about oral issues. A consistent thing I've heard is, uh, oh, is that conflict still going on? Like, yeah, you know, I remember hearing about it when it happened last year, and I just haven't heard that much. And when I mentioned, I have a podcast that I'll get a response of like, oh, that's, that's great. I really want to learn more about it. I just didn't know where to go to look. And so I think it's it has somewhat fallen off of the news cycle and the consciousness and that when when information does come, it has to come in the form of some kind of political breakthrough, or the opposite of a political breakthrough, something some collapse or some atrocity that happened or some kind of dense story out of the UN or involving political intrigue that that is more high level. But I think this breaks through some of those big stories by giving us an on the ground view, which is exactly what's needed. And I hope that that works like this can reach beyond those that are simply connected to Myanmar and care about Myanmar, but those that honor this, this cry from the human heart and those that are joining in this shared humanity and are just able to understand what beyond history taking place and these big headlines, the feeling of loss, just this tremendous feeling of injustice and loss for no reason of losing someone in your life or losing some freedom or losing some, some possibility or hope for oneself or one's community or the greater country and how that that comes along. I have resist, it is so tragic and so devastating and so real. And this is an ongoing story that is continuing to unfold. And I think that as, as you mentioned, the stories like Ukraine and other places are, are taking more of the world's attention. And this is, even before Ukraine, this wasn't really rising past the point of consciousness for many people to stay on that the most we can do our works like this, that are able to speak to that, or art shows or podcast conversations or hip hop songs or whatever else is able to, to give that expression that this is still ongoing. And this is this is a part of the shared humanity that that wherever we are, and whoever we are, that we can understand these, these kind of universal archetypes that these stories come through with.
Brian Haman 45:50
Yeah, I think that's a good point. I mean, the media is essentially a double edged sword, obviously, on the one hand, it can draw attention to these conflicts in these situations, and really magnify them and serve as a catalyst for people to try and, you know, try and contribute in one way or another, to some sort of amelioration or resolution to these conflicts. But on the other hand, you have, you have a media that's driven by by headlines by things like parachute journalism, by sensationalism, and as you mentioned, if it's not something that would be attention grabbing or headline grabbing, then it often tends to tends to not, not make it into the new cycle. And sadly, these things are cycles that it is cyclical, put conflict isn't a conflict is very much an ongoing thing. And so many people are largely aware of these, these conflicts throughout the world, not only in Myanmar, but throughout the world, internationally, globally. Because the media functions in such a way that it doesn't really sustain its coverage of these, these events, but rather, chooses to focus on in the case of Myanmar, the beginning of it, which was which was obviously shocking. And it had that kind of sensationalist quality to it, but then the coverage times out, or it shifts to other parts of the world or other subjects and things like that. Another point that you mentioned, too, is this idea of intergenerational violence and trauma. I mean, not only are these people in Myanmar, all of these, you know, these people from various ethnicities and religions and backgrounds and classes and professions, and so on, experiencing this violence, but this violence is this is something I think this kind of violence is being passed down intergeneric generationally throughout me and throughout our Burmese society, and really through throughout so much of the country and its people. And really, that's something that I sort of wonder about the the effects of that. And I think that's also one of the reasons why we had these contributions from earlier periods 2020, to 2010. And then from 2010, to meeting EDA, to to underscore the extent to which this is a sort of intergenerational problem, and that it has, obviously impacted previous generations, it's impacting the current generation, and this kind of violence is going to continue to impact Myanmar in the future, even if that violence ceases, in the immediate future, which sadly, doesn't seem like it will. But this is something very much sort of inter woven into Myanmar society, and its history sort of inter woven into the fabric of, of, of, I suppose Myanmar stories and, and I really wonder about the consequences and the impacts of that kind of intergenerational trauma and violence.
Host 48:53
Certainly, and this is something that we've seen with Generation Z is trying so hard to to make a final resistance of this and to to make a new shift and a new way forward for Myanmar society, but it's certainly no easy way. I'm also reflecting on you said now that you you see a when you're looking at the cyclical nature of the way that that news gets reported, and that's, that's in contrast to these big headlines, there's another contrast that came to mind my mind would hearing that and it's rather than looking at at something one time, which is cyclical, something that came to mind when I was reading your anthology was the contrast between something being temporary and permanent. And the the example of a big headline when it comes out of something some great loss of life like what happened in Virgo or in LinkedIn last year. This is this is almost an A these be headlines are temporary in their own way. They're impermanent because they're, they're just passing they arise and they pass away another Buddhist concept here, and then we move on to the next thing, but what came about in yearbook was this sense of permanence, this sense of a permanent loss, that one that is going to stay in one forever for the rest of their life and for their community's life. And when in the loss that is described in your pages by by the firsthand accounts of people who are expressing what they've gone through, it's, it's this, the loss is so devastating very much because it's written in, in very permanent kind of ways as the in a subjective way from the speaker, from the writer expressing oneself, they are giving life to this sense that something has been irrevocably lost forever. And that's not true of everything. I mean, someone, obviously there people can get over some things, there can be difficult periods that that one has to pass through, and then eventually find a new way forward. But there are other you know, obviously, a loss of life is as permanent as it gets. And that's not just the end of that person's life. It's also everyone that that person was connected with. It's also a something that is, is never coming back. It's a relationship or a force in the world that is gone forever. And so it's another interesting thing to contrast this, we have the cyclical nature, as you talked about things that keep coming back and keep having to be dealt with and aren't just these, these big headlines. But then there's also this heavy sense of permanence that I think the headlines don't give justice to that, that some terrible incident or atrocity that happens, yes, that's terrible for us to have to learn about and know, from a distant corner of the world, in, in having learned about it and seeing this, this really bad incident that happened. But beyond that reporting, the stories that are expressed in this anthology go into this sense of this permanent sense of loss, that one has to somehow with this burden, find a way forevermore to get through having this this this terrible, terrible thing that they're, that they're having to hold on to and having to find some way to let go of, and I think that's another kind of universality in reading this that that one is struck with. And I think that's also why it impacted me so much, even, even through all the the familiarity I have following this living this out for the past year and a half, it was just this this burden, this overwhelming sense of of finality of loss, that that really comes through strongly by the some of the selections that you choose.
Brian Haman 52:40
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the extent to which this loss is inscribed into into a person's life. Yeah, and that loss becomes part of that person's, you know, that history or the community's history or family's history or, you know, region's history or country's history. And I think one of the ways that I suppose it might be a, sort of a traditionalist view, but I think one of the things that we also wanted to do is we didn't want to put up simply an ebook, we wanted the permanence of a physical book, that could be you know, stored on shelves and, and that had that kind of permanency in a library or on a bookshelf or something like that, obviously, books can can, can, you know, can be can be destroyed, lost, they can, the papers can you know, the yellow and wither away and so on, so forth. But, but nevertheless, there is the kind of permanency to a physical book that, that, that but digital book, or an e book doesn't have. And we really wanted to have that, that sense of permanency through through the physical object of this book itself. And to be able to read it to share that book to be able to have that book circulate just as these stories and ideas circulate to be able to have the physical you know, the physical book itself circulate.
Host 54:05
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's funny Hearing you say that because when we first got in touch, you sent me an e copy of the book, which I actually didn't read because there was something in me that wanted I wanted the physical book, I just felt like I've been living digitally remotely for so long in in understanding and seeing this conflict developed and this is a book that's printed, there's a physical book so I want to wait until i i can get a physical copy, sit down and read it and I think it did have an impact on me and having the seen the stories in physical print, that I had been living through remotely in in the past year and seeing the sense of, of reality and have verification of solidifying that this really did happen. Somehow holding that in my hand gave a different experience than then The online digital version version. And so I think that combined with the permanent loss and burden is expressed in the stories, which you rightly also indicate, this is a sense of their identity going forward, this one terrible moment that happened and Burmese people in this past year and a half, so many people in the country have had so many terrible moments, random moments of violence, a bullet just passing through the home of a, of someone, a child just sitting there doing nothing, that this permanent sense of loss is, is is captured and shared in this anthology. So, yes, that really comes through.
Brian Haman 55:40
Yeah, and, and for all of the, you know, for all the suffering for all of the for all of the loss for all of the trauma from the death for all of the torture and things like that they're there Nevertheless, you know, there is a spirit of optimism, I mean, the title itself picking versions will not stop the spring despite all of these things, you know, there there is this there are these paths forward. People continue to resist people continue to fight people continue to write and, and there is this kind of indomitable bring, that that just doesn't seem to be able to be suppressed or repressed.
Host 56:25
Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's hope so, before I let you go, just you looking at the the book itself, of course, the title again, once again, is picking off new shoots will not stop the spring, you also have a cover art on the book, can you explain the meaning of that?
Brian Haman 56:41
Yep. The, the the image itself is by by an artist who prefers to remain anonymous. And the image is quite striking. It's in the shape of Myanmar. So for those for those readers or listeners who are unfamiliar with with Myanmar, you know, its history culture, or simply unfamiliar with its shape on a map, its geography, its physical shape, it shapes in the in the shape of Myanmar itself. And it it has this blood spring, it has the sort of, you know, this visceral, red and orange, obviously, to to allude to the kind of violence that continues to happen there. But also it has the symbolism of resistance, these flip flops that seem to recur throughout these various resistance movements within Myanmar's history. And so we have some work that alludes to, to this, to this, to this metaphor, really, but also again, to these physical objects to these, these foot pops. And in one of the works, that refers to the flip flops that were left behind, because the military had opened fire on on a crowd and they the crowd obviously had to disperse running for their lives. And often, these folks were left behind as people were seeking shelter from from the youngsters, bullets.
Host 58:18
Right, that's a really striking image. And yeah, I encourage all listeners to find a copy of this book. It's really quite extraordinary. And I thank you, Brian for taking the time to join and explain about the process of creating this over the course of the past year.
Brian Haman 58:35
Thanks very much and appreciate it.
Host 58:58
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1:02:02
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1:04:15
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