Transcript: Episode #115: A Reign of Terror
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Matthew Wells, which appeared on August 5, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Brad 02:45
So welcome back to another episode of insight Myanmar. Today we're joined by Matt wells, who's the Deputy Director for the amnesty crisis response team who's going to be talking about the work and the research that Amnesty has been doing with regards to the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Myanmar. So about thank you for joining us. Would you care to introduce yourself a little bit more broadly to the audience?
Matthew Wells 03:08
Yeah, thank you for having me. So I'm part of a team at MSC the crisis response team that specializes in investigating human rights violations, crimes under international law, and they sit in situations of armed conflict or other major human rights crises. So we work around the world to document war crimes and other violations like that. And in particular, a colleague and I have been working for much of this year on the conflicts in eastern Myanmar, in documenting crimes by the Myanmar military against civilians there. And it follows on work that I've done in the past on crimes against the Rohingya population in Rakhine state's war crimes in Cochin in northern Shan state by the military and also crimes against the ethnic Rakhine population in the context of the conflicts with the with the American army. And so it's work that we have come across in Myanmar again and again and again over the last five years.
Brad 04:09
And and I think it's, it's something that really bears repeating that, from the outside perspective, we look at Myanmar, we say, well, you know, it's a country in crisis. But it's significantly more complex than that the crises that unfold in the different parts of Shan State Kachin State, Qin Rakhine and current currency states are actually very different crises, that they're very different conflicts with very different histories and, and, and sort of cultural impetus. So I think it is it is useful then to note that just because we're we're talking about the crisis in one part of the country, that does not mean that we're necessarily developing a better understanding of the crisis in other parts of the country or, or coming up with, with solutions to that. So with that in mind, Could you could you tell us a little bit about the Background like what? What has Myanmar been like from a humanitarian perspective under the military, particularly in these border regions over the last couple of decades?
Matthew Wells 05:12
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's a really good point to make. And, of course, in addition to the complexities in different parts of the country, and they relate to different ethnic minorities and their efforts for for decades, for greater autonomy and for respect for their rights, you also now have the situation in the aftermath of the coup in February last year. And so there there many layers of what's happening right now in different parts of the country. But one commonality, one thing that that we do see across different regions is patterns of crimes by the Myanmar military against civilians, they resort to very similar tactics again, and again. And so what we've seen an MSDS work now for several decades in Myanmar is often a resort to collective punishment of civilians. So instead of operations going after ethnic armed groups or other fighters, the military often sets its sights on entire civilian populations in these areas, people that it perceives to support ethnic armed groups or to provide some sort of assistance to them. And so often, then, in the way that it fires artillery or mortars in the way that it sweeps up people, often just on the basis of their ethnicity in arrests, and then subjected them to torture and other abuses and the way that they cut off or make extremely difficult the movement of humanitarian assistance into into these areas into areas and ethnic minority areas across the country. And we see this, this resort to very similar brutal tactics that consistently violate international law and that subject civilians in these air in these areas to to really horrific abuses again, and again.
Brad 07:09
I mean, certainly this is the sort of story that we've, we've seen play out in a lot of other countries, typically in the context of terrorist groups like ISIS. So it's it's very disheartening to see it playing out in in Myanmar as well. Would you say, though, has there been any, quote unquote, positive impacts for the military from this? Has it has this just unbridled assault on civilian populations actually resulted in, in territorial gains for the military or a reduction in in counter military insurgencies around the country?
Matthew Wells 07:50
I think the short answer is, is no. In that, you know, we have seen really now a proliferation of, of armed groups and have an uprising against the military, particularly in the aftermath of the coup with, you know, the rise of the PDFs in many parts of the country now operating alongside many of the long standing ethnic armed organizations. So I think, you know, today the military is, is is fighting on more fronts than it has in a really long time. And it is, it's finding a, you know, enormous swath of, of the population that is now in active opposition to it, whether that be in forms of civil disobedience and kind of the the incredible, you know, protests and efforts being made by by civilians across the country since the coup, or whether that be in, you know, more and more people now taking up arms and in the fight for their rights and against the military. And so, I think the military in many ways sees a bigger threat today than it than it than it hasn't a long time. And in in response to that, it's in the way that it commits these abuses that, you know, it is furthering that more and more because, again, it's treating entire populations as if they are if they are the enemy, or the enemy is if it is appropriate to target them when, of course it's it's it's clear under under international law and otherwise, that that that's absolutely forbidden, and yet they continue to resort to that. I think, in terms of times the military has, in we saw this in our work in eastern Myanmar Times the military will have you know, success in a particular operation in which it's trying to take a very specific road or control some sort of route for a period of time, but in doing so, it is then burning villages, it is forcibly displacing 10s of 1000s of people for and villages, it is firing indiscriminately in ways that are killing large numbers of civilians and injuring many more and devastating civilian infrastructure homes and in hospitals and schools and all sorts of civilian property throughout these areas. And in so doing it, you know, while it may take a road in the short term, it's showing that, you know, it's only resort is to these sorts of brutal tactics that over the long run, are driving people away from the military in a desperate desire to see to see change and to see the consolidation of, of the rule of law and, and a respect for human rights across the country.
Brad 10:50
And so, we know from from just years and years of experience that the military does not care about the condemnation of the international community, they don't really care about international law. They've certainly done their best to shirk responsibility by refusing to sign the Rome Statute and become subject to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, for example, but why the obvious question has to be, why does the military continue to double down on this mentality of to put it very simplistically, we are entitled by the mandate of heaven to rule and anybody who does not recognize that needs to be punished into at least respecting that, when it has objectively not worked for them, it has objectively not brought them strategic benefits. And indeed, I would argue that following 1988, and, and even as we saw in the, let's say, the faux Reclamations, of 2010. And beyond, it appeared that the military finally got through their heads that you need to have at least a veneer of democratization, you need to have some level of of visible reform and some reduction in cruelty, in order to more effectively govern in order to get better outcomes nationally. Why then do they continue to bounce back into this mentality of just squeezed the civilians more? And somehow things will be good?
Matthew Wells 12:20
I mean, the first thing I'd say is, I think it's, it's, it's difficult to get inside of the mentality to mindset, especially at the senior leadership of the military, at least for you know, for us and others, we, we've often tried to engage at times, we even tried to engage, you know, with this most recent reports in sending right of reply letters to try to get their response on issues. And they to us, you know, for years have been have been closed off. And so I think it's, it's a real challenge to get them on the record or even informally speaking to these things at all. I mean, I think, you know, it just in terms of conjecture, I think, I think the military probably recognizes right now that it is, you know, facing a larger scale of threats and opposition to, to its rule and to its practices than it has in a long time. And I am, and I think the response to that is then doubling down on what they've done in the past in order to maintain, you know, some sort of power and control. And then I think it's clear after, after decades of this, and that, there's, it's difficult to imagine that, that there is an ability for this leadership of the military to, you know, to make inroads and actually gaining legitimacy with with ethnic minorities that they have subjected to, to abuses for 20 3040 years. And so instead, we're now faced with a threat and in a in an even, again, wider uprising and movement than in the past. It's they have doubled down and entrenched and are going back to the worst of their of their practices that we've seen.
Brad 14:22
So with that in mind, let's move forward to the actual report that that Amnesty published which I believe you when and one of your colleagues worked on in and and published what ultimately other findings of the report I mean, we will link the report down below for for anybody who's who's interested in reading it, but in your own words, what are the key takeaways?
Matthew Wells 14:48
So we were on the Thailand Myanmar border in in March and April of this year, looking really in detail at the military operations starting from December of 2021 through right now. So looking in, in real time at the types of operations the military is undertaking in in Korean and Karenni, or cayenne and chaos states in particular, and the crimes associated with those. And what we found, for example, is really, you know, widespread assault on civilian populations through unlawful attacks by ground and air. So above all, and we documented 24 attacks by artillery or mortars, in which civilians were killed or injured, or in which civilian homes or other infrastructure were destroyed. And very often what this was is just the relentless firing of mortars into villages, day and night for days at a time. And in many of the incidents that we looked at, there were no lawful targets in the area. You know, there were no fighters from an ethnic armed organization nearby, there was no base of an ethnic armed organization or a PDF nearby, the military was just firing relentlessly, mortars or artillery shells into villages. I mean, one example, from March of this year, for example, people were gathering for a Buddhist religious festival, they were doing traditional Korean dance in the evening. And in the midst of that to mortar shells landed, right, right omit those who were who were doing the traditional dance, and it it killed three civilians and injured 11 More, and it was one horrific incident, but it was one that was replicated again and again, and what we were documenting, and we also documented a number of airstrikes on villages and and even an IDP camp that was hit in January in the middle of the night. Again, killing killing three people in this case, including two sisters who are 15 and 12 years old. And this IDP camp, I mean, it should have been well known to the military in any sort of aerial reconnaissance, you can see that this is, you know, place for civilians were living, this has nothing to do with any sort of, of, you know, fighters or members of of any armed group. And yet, again, the military is hitting the civilian areas over and over and over again, causing significant numbers of death and injuries, and ultimately leading to massive displacement across these areas. In addition, we found that no many people after they're displaced, they're displeased with nothing more than the clothes on their back and what little that they can carry. And, you know, after weeks or months and displacements, people often try to then sneak back to their villages to pick up a rice sack or whatever, whatever they could then bring back to their displacement site to feed themselves and their family. And very often, especially men or older boys, who, if they're moving in these areas, and Easter, Myanmar, if they come across the military, if they come across the checkpoints are other positions of soldiers. They are arbitrarily detained subjected to torture and other real treatments and in some cases are summarily executed. So we had an example, a case that we documented from late January and send pa six mile village in Karenia, chaos states where were three men again tried tried to go back home in order to just pick up some vegetables and basic food from their from their village, and their families never heard from them again. And it was several weeks later, in early February that their bodies were found they'd actually been thrown into a pit latrine after having been killed. And then when people tried to go and collect their bodies just to be able to bury them. A brother of one of the victims and others who tried to compromise were then shot at by the military from a position nearby just as they tried to collect the bodies. And it was ultimately not until the end of March, two months after they went missing. And some six weeks after the bodies were first found before the family members were finally able to remove the bodies and to give them proper burial. And again, just one example but it speaks to a much wider pattern that we saw in the last year kind of pattern that I'll talk about quickly is just pillaging and burning. And very often when the military is driving people away through this relentless attack by ground and air that the soldiers then go into a village where people have been forcibly displaced from and they steal everything of value they steal, money, jewelry, livestock close race anything that they can take data in truck away. And then at times we had we interviewed witnesses who describe soldiers slashing rice sacks, when they couldn't carry everything, you know, to destroy a food supply, that will have an effect on these, these villages for months to come that now they're the food that they harvested last year is has been destroyed. And then in some areas, especially of chaotic or any state, the military has systematically burned villages as it's moved through. So we could see not just from from witness testimony, but from satellite imagery that we have access to. And it's included in the reports that over a number of villages, as the military move through, it burned large swaths of these villages, burning homes, burning markets, burning everything. In some villages in one village, for example, we were able to spot within 250 structures, it was around two thirds of the village that had been burned by the military over over several periods in February and March of this year. And again, it speaks to this this collective punishment of of entire civilian populations in these area, areas that that has profound effects today, and is going to continue to have a profound effect on civilian populations in these areas for for months, and potentially years to come.
Brad 21:34
I mean, it's it's absolutely harrowing, the stories that we're hearing and the things that you're saying, you know, they absolutely track with the stories that we've heard coming out of the west of the country, particularly in Chin State, we've heard the annual food supplies being being stolen or being destroyed. And then on top of that, the fields being completely burned, making it impossible to grow food for the coming year, we've seen the mindless destruction of civilian houses in places like dump lung, which has been hit multiple times by the military. And I know that on this podcast, we've actually interviewed combat of the company nationalities Defense Force, who similarly recounted that IDP camps were being repeatedly targeted by the military, even though the PDF were not hiding their location, and they were they were located 1000s of miles away, you know, specifically to avoid the excuse of military targets, near villages and IDP centers. So it's, it's absolutely grueling, but you know, as as unpleasant as the question, maybe it has to be raised? What is the methodology? Right? What do we, how can we be sure of these results? How can we be sure of these? I mean, we don't have government figures, because there is no functioning government, the military is not likely to talk to us. We have a lot of people saying a lot of different things. But how can you be sure of the numbers that you have?
Matthew Wells 23:05
No, it's I mean, it's a great question and a really important one. And I think, you know, the first thing to indicate is that in the way that we do our work at amnesty, and, you know, particular documentation that we're doing is the crisis response team. We are, we are not trying to come to a total number of civilians who have been killed or the total number of civilians who have been detained. There are good numbers out there, from organizations like the assistance sociation for political prisoners who, you know, keep a very regular updating total on, on issues like that the work that we are doing is far more about really going deep on a number of individual incidents, to be able to establish patterns of violations by the military. And so for example, you know, when we documents, eight airstrikes, is what we focus on in terms of airstrikes specifically in our report. And in doing that, to come to a place in which we feel confidence in speaking about those airstrikes. We are interviewing, generally multiple direct witnesses to specific those specific airstrikes. We are then also using satellite imagery to check for craters or other indications of an air strike. to corroborate what we're hearing from witnesses. We have access to flight spotter information in which people are indicating that a fighter jet is taking off from a specific airport at a specific time, headed in the direction for example of cayenne state, and then returns to that airport at that time. And then we can look at satellite imagery to Make sure are the type of fighter jet that the spotter is indicating is that actually on the tarmac of that airport at that time. And if so then it lines up is further you know corroboration for it. We both through people we interview who provide us with, you know, photo material video material of the aftermath of an airstrike. Or things that are posted on social media, we then have people on our on our team in what we call the the evidence lab at Amnesty who specialize in verifying that, you know, that photograph or that video is actually from the village where it's indicated, and from the date and time indicated. And so ultimately, then, you know, we were able to piece all of these different sorts of evidence together, from testimony, from witnesses, to satellite imagery, to photo and video material, to flight spotter info, you know, all of this comes together to be able to then feel that for this specific incident, we have enough evidence to feel very confident in what we're saying about what happened on that day at that time. And then if you build enough of those incidents together in a similar way, that ultimately then you can establish with confidence, again, the patterns of how the military is carrying out attacks by air or with mortars. And so we, we can, from those specific incidents, you know, feel very confident in the specific number of people, or at least a certain number of people who were killed and injured in those specific incidents, which is generally our focus, as opposed to being able to capture all of the civilian casualties that have happened in eastern Myanmar, much less across the entire country since since the coup.
Brad 26:58
Oh, so pretty comprehensive stuff. And it is. It is interesting to know that you're talking about things like craters, you're talking about seeing a physical plane on the tarmac, like, there is a lot of physical evidence available that you might not, you might not imagine, because we see, you know, we see soldiers do things, if we're lucky enough to get a recording of it. We see houses burning, obviously, you can't hide the fact that a house has been burned down. But something like being able to count craters of of airstrikes, I mean, that's pretty, that's pretty solid, pretty reliable. It's not something that I would have, I would have thought of, but I want to talk about footage. Specifically. We've seen with other crises, obviously, Ukraine has dominated the media, we've seen a lot of footage of rocket strikes, we've seen footage of the aftermath of crimes being uncovered. We've seen a lot of footage of captured soldiers, confessing, and there's just a lot of visual evidence direct from the ground, that helps to really spread the information, spread awareness, and it's really helped to capture the attention of the international community. While by contrast, in Myanmar, in many of these regions, which are hardest hit, there has been an absence of electricity for extended periods of time, many of these regions have been extended internet blackouts. Is is that sort of thing. Something that is hindering our understanding of the true scale of what's going on, is that something that's hindered your work in any way?
Matthew Wells 28:43
I think I think it has had a, an impact on on, you know, how closely the international community media and others are, are following this situation. And it's, it's, you know, I think, I think this is part of the military's strategy, you know, they cut off communications, they, you know, monitor communications when they're not cut off such that it, you know, makes it dangerous from a security perspective, you know, for people who were trying to compile this sort of evidence inside and, and all of that then means that there is less less coming out here than in other places. And we also see that and just in terms of the sheer access inside the country, you're documenting violations by local civil society groups who were doing unbelievable work but but at enormous risk. And, of course, without, you know, without the military's authorization to do this work in the first place to document and so you contrast that to it to a situation like Ukraine, where there is an enormous presence in the country of international media of a human rights actors of others who were able to get to sites and to then put that information out immediately, whereas the, you know, the military by really shutting down the country by arresting activists by, you know, cutting off the country, from UN Human Rights actors from other sorts of international investigators. It is it is it's a deliberate effort to keep this information from getting out. And unfortunately, it is then having success. And that in that, you know, when you look at the attention paid to the situation in Myanmar by the UN Security Council or by other, you know, major multinational bodies, it is it's it's embarrassingly limited, you know, despite the fact that that we know the, the enormous human costs of what's happening right then right now in Myanmar. And so there is a desperate need. In fact, all the more so because of how far the military is going to blocking information that the international community really needs to redouble its efforts to bring attention to what's happening on the ground, because without that, it will continue to stay out of the headlines and out of the attention in a way as even as civilians continue to suffer on a massive scale.
Brad 31:30
And so, let's talk about that suffering. And let's talk about how the situation is unfolding. Because we've seen in the past, obviously, a lot of these tactics that we've already discussed. But let's focus on the differences. This conflict has been described as the first of its kind. There have been many conflicts in Myanmar. But there have been many firsts. Following the coup, unprecedented levels of unification and cooperation between Aeos we've seen the ethnic Bomar joining resistance organizations by the 1000s and collaboration between the ethnic BOMA and the CEOs, again, for the for the first time on this scale that we've ever seen. But as far as the military is concerned, how have their tactics changed, if at all?
Matthew Wells 32:24
I think the number one way that their tactics have changed have been through the increasing reliance on airstrikes. And they've they've used you know, airstrikes in the past. I mean, I documented airstrikes at times in the conflicts and Katrina northern Shan State back in 26 2017, or in Rakhine state against the Archon Army in 2018 2019. But when you compare the, the intensity, the frequency of airstrikes and those conflicts in the past versus what's happening right now in, in eastern Myanmar, it's, it's, I mean, it's an entirely different scale. And so the way that they are pounding civilian areas, as well as, you know, positions of the videos and PDFs with airstrikes is, is really of a different order from what we've seen in the past. And that's having profound impacts on the civilian population. I mean, there were a number of people that we interviewed who, you know, they were there terrorized, traumatized, every time they hear in an airplane, flying by, you know, even if, even if that's just not for, to actually, you know, fire a missile or to launch another sort of attack. I mean, this stage, the mere flying of military aircraft, or even any aircraft in this area, has such a profound impact on on mental health of people in any area. I mean, such that, you know, people were describing to us, especially because of the airstrikes that night, and also at times the mortar attacks it nice, you know, people are sleeping underneath the, the stilts of of their homes, because they can't feel any safety to sleep inside their home at night because of the way that the military has attacked. And I think that's, you know, it's related, but also a second differences, how often attacks right now or happening at nighttime, as opposed to at least when you know, when I've documented military operations in the past and in other parts of the country, primarily, those operations were taking place during the day the firing was taking place during the day whereas now, whether it's with mortars, whether it's with airstrikes, you have just so much firing throughout the night and again, what that means in terms of people not feeling they can be in their villages safely, you know, even at nighttime to sleep and so people have been fled further and further from their village to a displacement site and then ultimately to to caves. are very deep in the jungle because of that it's only there that they can find any sort of refuge from the relentless assault by by the military. But while you know, there may be a bit more safety, security from air strikes or artillery, mortar fire, in those extremely remote areas, it's in much harder to access people with humanitarian assistance, or assistance of any kind. And so there that also then has a further knock on effect in terms of people's access to food and water and, and the most basic of healthcare. And it all again, stems from this pounding of civilian areas, day and night with airstrikes and artillery and mortar fire.
Brad 35:49
And it's it's something that I've heard, I don't know how accurate that is. But basically, what I'm being told is that this reliance on airstrikes just comes from the fact that on the ground, the military is not as effective as they thought that they would be. I mean, they're excellent, obviously, when they're when they're shelling a village, or when they're, you know, just firing indiscriminately into civilian crowds. But when they're actually faced with armed resistance, they just did borderline useless. And so they're relying very heavily on shelling, and they're relying very heavily on airstrikes, and they were relying very heavily on attack helicopters in order to gain that. That strategic edge, but what what you've been saying this whole time is basically that it isn't even strategic. It's not that they're using air superiority to fight back against the PDF, they're using the air superiority. If I'm understanding correctly, to double down on assaulting civilian targets and civilian settlements, would that be fair?
Matthew Wells 36:55
It's a combination of two, it's certainly it's absolutely the case that in many of these instances, it is just targeting directing that fire at civilian populations as part of as part of instilling this fear and punishment. I guess, if, if one, were trying to venture a guess, I think it does also go back to the historic, you know, four cuts, policy and idea and, in so doing, they are driving people out of these villages. And I guess, in you know, in their perception, then making it harder on whether it's the CEOs or PDFs in terms of not having civilian presence throughout these areas, because they're, they're being driven, you know, to more and more remote areas. But that is a, you know, incredibly, as you said, in terms of, you know, there's no long term strategic thought there, certainly, you know, ability to, to ever come back from that and be seen as a, you know, a force that that respects the rights of, of ethnic minorities in this area, when they have subjected them to this relentless barrage for for more than a year now.
Brad 38:21
So let's now sort of expand our scope a little bit, and, and start thinking about, you know, what, what can be done? We're obviously dealing with a humanitarian crisis. But I wonder if there's any way that you can help to illustrate the scale that we're talking about. So this is a country of 54 million people you will take. If the war ended tomorrow, you know, let's say the military lays down their arms, and they just disappear. What is still the scale of humanitarian crisis with regards to things like COVID with regard to things like displacement and homelessness with regards to things like power, insecurity, food insecurity, all these sorts of issues compounded how big of a problem are we talking about?
Matthew Wells 39:13
Yeah, it's a really important question. I think there's, there's several things here. I mean, first is if we just look at, if we started getting, you know, looking at Eastern Myanmar, in a state, like, kayak or any I mean, at this point, it's between a third to a half of the entire population of that state is displaced. You know, so in terms of the proportion of the impact of the conflicts right now, in the military's abuses, it's it's enormous in these areas in terms of just how many people percentage of people who've been driven from from their homes. Then you add to that the fact that you know, many of the homes have been damaged or destroyed. By airstrikes or mortar fire, or they have been burned to the ground systematically, you know, by the military, what that would entail in terms of rebuilding, you know, all of that infrastructure will be enormous. You add to that the fact that the military is, as we talked about systematically, pillaging, you know, many of the villages that they're taking, and so the wealth that's been pulled away, I mean, the basic mechanisms of livelihoods that are being pulled away in terms of, you know, people's livestock, and even just the cash that they hold in their home, and all of that now being stolen in certain villages or certain areas, what that means for people's ability to, to rebuild their lives. I mean, I remember in particular, there was, there was this older woman who I interviewed, she was in her 70s. And she had been driven from her village, and went back a couple of days later to find that the military had ransacked her home stolen all the money. And what she told me is that money that she had in her home is money that her children and grandchildren had sent her to be able to prepare for medical needs and health needs that she would have at this stage of her life. And now that all has been taken away because of the military's pillaging. And, again, this is the case for for 10s of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s of people in in conflict areas. And then, you know, adding on top of that, you have the right now is is the planting season, you know, this is when people need to start preparing, start the process of farming for what will be the next harvest. And so many of them are displaced, they're away from their homes away from their villages, and can't go back to them safely. And so you not only have a crisis of of now, in terms of the homes burned and the food stolen, but you have a crisis that's going to get likely significantly worse, because many people are not able to now, you know, plants in order to harvest in in the coming season. And so what that will mean for long term food insecurity is is enormous. And then finally, you have a real decimation of the health infrastructure in these areas. And that happens, because, you know, hospitals and other health facilities have been bombed. It happens because people have been forced to flee from, you know, many of the towns where the bigger hospitals or health facilities were to go, you know, again, deeper into the jungle or into caves for their safety. And that means, you know, that everything from, as you said, the, you know, COVID-19 response to vaccinations more generally, for kids and others, to just the basic infrastructure for, you know, primary health care has been decimated throughout these areas. And that will have long term ramifications. And so there's this, there's an enormous need now to, to get far more creative with the humanitarian response to scale up that response and to find creative ways to make sure that assistance is getting through to these communities that are that are hardest hits. Because without it again, the situation is already quite dire, and it is likely to get significantly more so.
Brad 43:28
So let's let's talk about the response itself. Very disturbingly, we have seen that ASEAN has agreed as part of their response package to use the aid distribution mechanisms that are overseen by the military, and unsurprisingly, even on PayPal, the military's distribution mechanism is designed to benefit those areas that are under fair military control that are in the center of the country that are bound dominated, and would not include places like Qin state or currently state, which have been very, very aggressively hit by the military. But even straying away from the theory. I personally have heard reports, although I can't corroborate them, that that some of the the things being sent in aid, wind up being sold for cash in markets, you know, that there is there is widespread corruption and there is basically just the exploitation of international aid for personal gain and personal profit. Now, the question is, what obstacles are being faced by actors who want to help distribute aid in actually making sure that that aid gets to the communities that needed the most?
Matthew Wells 44:53
Yeah, I mean, it's this is, I think, one of the most pressing questions and one of the most pressing issues to try to get resolved or to get significant improvements on I think, you know, you, you first have the long standing military obstructionism that we saw, even prior to the coup in terms of humanitarian response in conflict areas where they, you know, the number of of hoops that a humanitarian actor has to jump through in terms of the different authorizations and the fact that those are ever changing. And, you know, the person that you have to go to this week as changed by the next week, and it's all a kind of delay tactic to make the delivery of assistance as as difficult and as controlled as possible. But then you have a second level, particularly, as you said, as well, from what you've heard in areas that are controlled by or largely administered by ethnic arm organizations, where there there's a much more, you know, complete blocking of, or at least extreme limiting of the assistance that gets through and, you know, for example, in for the report that we just published, interviewed doctors and nurses and others who were trying to move aid specifically, you know, medical supplies and medications, through to EO controlled areas and had several incidents in which, you know, vehicles that were bringing medical supplies, destined for civilians in these areas, were not only stopped by the military, but the the goods on board were actively seized by the military. And there's something that others have have documented and reported on as well. And so you have, again, the the manipulation of humanitarian assistance. So the ability to deliver life saving aid, is part and parcel of this wider strategy of collective punishments. You know, the, the ability to choke off assistance that's destined for civilians in Iraq to control parts of the country is for the military. I mean, just another part of the types of, of war crimes and what we have, we have said, are likely crimes against humanity being committed against civilians in these areas.
Brad 47:36
And so what, what is the international response looking like, because we've got some of the international community who say that they want to help, but they really don't do much, you've got some of the international community who will help, but because they are apolitical, and they don't want to take the risk, they're willing to use the military's own distribution methodology in the military is on systems. And it's, you know, it's laughable. But this is something that that we've seen all the way going back to, to cycle Nazis. And those who remember the corruption surrounding that when when the military temporarily changed the exchange rate from 1000, shatter the dollar to six chapter the dollar, so they could pocket the difference. It's something that we know is not useful. And yet many international aid organizations have felt compelled to use these these channels, which they know are corrupt, in the hopes of at least getting something through. And then of course, you do have organizations who are principled, and they say, No, we're not going to work with the military. But they are, you know, as you've noted, facing a lot of obstacles. And in a lot of cases, getting aid to places like Qin state or current state or any state can mean, literally, illegally smuggling goods across across borders. So it's a very difficult situation for the international community, whether it's government or whether it's NGO, and I don't envy the decisions that they have to make. But what are we generally looking at how's the international community leaning between these options?
Matthew Wells 49:11
I mean, I think the first thing that needs to be done is actually far more consistent communication with the civil society organizations on both sides of the border in these areas who have been navigating these dynamics for years, if not decades, in many cases, and you are far better and I think more creative ideas about how to manage this and how to make sure assistance is getting to the people who who need it most because they they live and work in these settings in a in a way that yeah, gives an insight that's that's, that's fundamentally, you know, deeper and more profound. And so I think that the starting point needs to be engaging with them around how how delivery can best be done so as to actually reach those who who need it most and then know that there needs to include pressure on discussions with the Thai authorities, if we're talking about current and current EU, for example, to to make sure that that assistance can move across the border. And in such a way that you don't have to rely on the military. You know, there are areas around here that around that part of the border that are controlled by ethnic armed organizations that are administered by ethnic armed organizations. And so there needs to be a lot more creativity about moving assistance through those areas such that it reaches civilians who are being hit in, you know, consistently by by the military, in, in other parts of the country, I think there's going to have to, of course, be navigating of the military of SEC dynamics when you're talking about areas that it you know, controls to varying degrees, but there are many of these areas that it doesn't control. And so if, if we're adopting an approach in which everything has to go through the military, or, you know, by definition, then you are ignoring significant parts of the country that are being hammered by the military, and where there's a desperate need for assistance to get through.
Brad 51:31
And so coming back to the Amnesty report that you've that you co authored, what impact if anything, do you expect that that report is going to have on the International Committee? I mean, absolutely. Amnesty International is a very highly respected organization and, and their words carry significant weight. But do you do you expect that your report is going to help motivate the sorts of changes that you're talking about in the international response?
Matthew Wells 51:59
And we will certainly, we will certainly try for that. You know, we we have done meetings in in New York with UN Security Council members who've done meetings with the US governments, we've done meetings with, with other governments, we've met with representatives from ASEAN countries, in so I, you know, we are trying to make sure that our findings and the the the enormous needs and really the, you know, again, the the nature of the military's crimes, which are consistently war crimes, and likely crimes against humanity, that this is getting to actors who have the ability to influence the situation on the ground, getting to them directly, recommendations that we're making around the humanitarian situation and how best to respond to it, but also around issues of of accountability and around an arms embargo. I mean, we believe deeply that there needs to be a comprehensive arms embargo imposed on on Myanmar, you know, it this stage, how could it be any clearer that any weapons sold or transferred to the Myanmar militaries is very likely to be used against civilians, we've seen this again, and again, we see it every day in different parts of the country. And so we need to see the flow of weapons into Myanmar stopped. And that includes things like your military grade aviation fuel that are then used in the fighter jets that are pounding civilian areas. And so there's an there's a number of pressure points that can be put on the military to try to to, you know, limit its ability to inflict such devastation on civilians. And ultimately, if we're talking about, you know, longer term and what's needed, we need to see justice, real accountability for the military's crimes, the crimes that it's committing right now in eastern Myanmar, the crimes it's committing right now, and Sziget, and chin and Skyn and elsewhere and the crimes that it's committed, you know, both in the past and now against the Rohingya and other populations across the country. And so it's only through accountability, through a real reckoning with the military's crimes and the way that is operated for decades, that we're likely to see a move out of this, and to, you know, the ability to to see a military and a government more generally, that respects the rights of all of those across the country, as opposed to what we've seen now for far too long. And again, particularly in the aftermath of the coup, in which those weapons are repeatedly trained on civilians.
Brad 54:48
So I think you've touched on some very important points here and the first one, I want to go back to something you just said. You know, how clear Could it be that weapons sold to the military are going to be used for murdering civilians, I think. I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head and also open the window onto a broader question here. They know I mean, they know the only country in the United Nations that actively opposed arms embargoes, when Myanmar was shot Cara, Bella Rosa. And they are themselves a military dictatorship. The countries who are supporting the hunter openly whether it's Russia, whether it's I've heard reports that I can corroborate them, that they've been engaging with the Revolutionary Guard of Iran. Whether it's, you know, China's passively as they're doing it, these countries know full well, what those resources, whether it's aviation parts, and we've just seen the UK putting sanctions on on three Russian agencies that that sell aviation parts for the military to, to repair their aircraft, or the whether it's ammunition, whether it's arms, whether it's aviation fuel, what have you, they know exactly what it's going to be used for. The Amnesty report is not going to make a difference on that they're fully aware of this. So what is it that we can do internationally to strangle this this trade, of the tools of murder? When information is not the issue? It's apathy and and an indifference to suffering that is driving it.
Matthew Wells 56:26
I think the first thing I'd say is I, I agree, I agree for the most part with with how you just would how you framed that. But I do think while there is there is lots of information out there. If you look, for example, at how the UN Security Council has, has treated Myanmar versus other crises around the world, I mean, this whole it has held no open meetings in a really long time on Myanmar, and even the closed door meetings are incredibly rare. And so even the the active discussions, open discussions in in the international fora where this is meant to be debated and discussed and to have information put in the public domain in front of countries around the world. It's not happening on Myanmar in the way that it is for other crises. And that that, to me is one of the first things that that has to change, and we need to see countries, and I think it's often too easy for countries to to look at, you know, a Russia veto or a China veto. And to then not, you know, make the effort to make the push to at least force, you know, that veto force China to have to make the decision to you know, to veto a resolution on a strong resolution on on Myanmar, as opposed to often now we end up in a situation in which, you know, countries are in effects kind of censoring themselves or keeping us out of the public domain, you know, looking for a consensus that that we all know is not, you know, coming quickly. And so we we need to see far more discussion on this, because it lowers the costs for the military and for those who are protecting it, when very little discussion is happening in in a public domain. And then the second thing I'd say is that, you know, there are while it's true that that many of those actors that you just named, you know, they their opinions will not change from an amnesty reports or a UN report to where, again, the incredible work being done by by civil society organizations on on the ground, but there are, there are other ways to, to, to squeeze this at least a little bit to have an effect. I mean, it's not, it's not only those countries who are involved in, you know, the movement of fuel of aviation fuel, for example, into the country that ultimately reaches the military. And there are ways whether it's through, you know, financial sanctions on those who are responsible for, for human rights abuses, whether it is making much more real the possibility of criminal investigation for the military's crimes, you know, there are, there needs to be far more attention paid, and then creativity given in terms of finding ways to, to make it more difficult for the military to continue to commit these sorts of violations, and to really escalate the pressure and the consequences for when it does.
Brad 59:44
And so I'm glad you you moved in that direction, because that's the thing that I wanted to, to move on to now. And that's the question of legal recourse. And I think it's it's a very complex, tricky situation. We look at something like this domestic legislation in Myanmar is complicated. But basically for decades, obviously the military have been writing their own laws, and not only writing their own laws, but writing their own constitutions to underpin those laws and prosecutions domestically. Under legislation that has been passed by, you know, the the CRP H, would be quite contentious. Myanmar is not a signatory to the Rome Statute. So that puts limitations on the impact of the International Criminal Court can have even even the range of genocide case was brought in the International Court of Justice. By the Gambia, against Myanmar as a whole as the International Court of Justice has to target countries as a whole, not individual actors within those countries as the ICC would be able to do. I've heard people arguing that the Geneva Conventions to which Myanmar is a signatory, do open the door to any signatory state carrying out prosecutions as long as any of the members of the hunter voluntarily leave Myanmar and and subject themselves to the possibility of arrest and prosecution on those grounds. But what do you think is the most likely or the most effective form of legal recourse moving forward against the junta?
Matthew Wells 1:01:20
I think I think your question actually touches on the most important strategy here, which is that all options need to be on the table. And we need all actors who can play a role in justice and accountability for the military's crimes to be doing so. No, for the International Criminal Court, for example, the UN Security Council can and should refer the situation in Myanmar to the ICC. So even with the fact that Myanmar is not a party to the Rome Statute, if the UN Security Council were to make a referral that would allow the the ICC to investigate mostly prosecute crimes committed across the entire country. As of now there is a investigate investigation that's ongoing, specifically related to a certain set of crimes committed by the military against the Rohingya, that's based on the fact that Bangladesh is a state party. And so but there's a sufficient nexus of crimes to a state party like Bangladesh that, that they can be investigated by the International Criminal Court. And so that that's underway. But but there are crimes being committed all across the country. And so a UN Security Council referral would allow for the prosecutor of the ICC, to investigate the full range of the military's crimes throughout the country against all the thing minorities, and today also against the bomber in the context of the uprising after the coup. In addition, you know, we have the double IWM that was set up. And that is building criminal investigations, case files against individuals in the military, they have they have said openly in public communications, that that includes crimes committed in the aftermath of the coup, that their investigations are looking into crimes committed in the aftermath of the coup. So that body needs more supports, both financially and also in in in its access to make sure that it can get to other countries in the region where you know, it would best be able to build investigations that ultimately it may not be, you know, today or a month from now. But by building those investigations right now, in this moment, when evidence is fresh, it can allow for prosecutions down the road in a variety of different jurisdictions, when the day may come that the situation changes such that such that it may be more feasible to bring prosecutions against against senior leaders of the military. And then finally, and it goes to a point you raised, you know, countries around the world, many of them can exercise jurisdiction under what's known as universal jurisdiction, the crimes that the military has committed crimes against humanity. In the case of the Rohingya, the UN is said, likely genocide and, of course, the war crimes throughout these contexts. Those are of such a gravity that they can be investigated by other countries often, for example, as you alluded to, if you know, a member of the military were to travel to a particular country and could then be arrested there for crimes committed in Myanmar. And so we need all of these efforts taking place simultaneously, along with targeted sanctions against those responsible for human rights violations so that even if they're not facing a court of law right now they are facing the consequences for, for their their human rights violations. And likewise, again, is we've already talked about stopping the flow of weapons and other things like that. So we need to see all options really on the table and support for them by countries around around the world, in order to maximize the pressure on the military related to these horrific abuses that have been going on for a while, and they continue every day now.
Brad 1:05:32
I think that's very comprehensive. So Matt, I want to thank you for coming on. And for sharing this information, I just want to give you the opportunity to leave the audience with your your final thoughts on this issue. I know it's a very big topic. I know there's a lot going on here. And I want to make sure that you have the chance to let the audience mull over the most important points of what we've discussed here today. So please, if you if you have any thoughts, I'd like you to share them.
Matthew Wells 1:06:03
I think the the two things that I would really want to leave people with is first that it's on all of us to try to bring more attention to the situation here and to make sure that our governments wherever we are in the world are likewise putting priority on this. I think it's been clear to all of us working on on Myanmar, that the international focus has largely moved away that there was a there was concerted attention in the first weeks, months after the coup. But at this point, the international community is paying very little attention to the situation in Myanmar. And that emboldened the military to continue to commit these sorts of horrific violations against civilians. And so there needs to be from all of us pressure on our governments pressure on our media outlets to cover the situation in Myanmar, and to make sure that it gets the attention that that it deserves, given the the situation that people are facing on the ground. And the second is that, you know, both from a humanitarian and human rights response that organizations on the ground are really doing unbelievable work on both sides of the border in places like Eastern Myanmar into Thailand, and then throughout other parts of, of Myanmar, and they're doing so at incredible risk and in the most challenging of circumstances. And there is a need from donors and others to significantly increase support to, to these frontline organizations who who are responding to these crises every single day. And in combined with that, if we can get more attention and more support for these organizations that will significantly help in in the short term. And then, you know, on top of that, again, for all that we have have talked about here in terms of the need for Justice and Accountability. And ultimately, the only way that this is going to change is if the military is brought to justice for the crimes it's committing right now in the east, the crimes it's committing right now in places like chicken chance again. And then the crimes that are just committed in recent years as well, if we really want to see move towards a country government ultimately that respects the rights of all those across Myanmar, that's only going to happen through a reckoning of the military with the military's crimes and justice for those crimes.
Joah 1:08:58
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