Transcript: Episode #111: Visual Rebellion

Following is the full transcript for the interview with these guests, which appeared on July 7, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

---

00:21

storage unit for the spirit house. The father, a dining room table, shades drawn, wobbly thrown the daughters with their brown shaky hands. A forest not haunts the master closet. Among the closed SMAs felt Wolverines. Daughter number one hiding behind a juniper bush. Bright lone GS. Wouldn't hand gun in metal case. Daughter number two sleeps with a long room next to her bed. meant chocolates under pillow 5am The father drops a cold wet towel on her face. Storage Unit filled with boxes of LPs Joni Dylan Carly back cover of Jimi Hendrix Experience on two hits of acid. This will blow your brains out. Dusty military jackets punishment belt piles of lock boxes missing keys jars of Nescafe VHS tapes of Burmese pop singers daughter number three listens to father's records in the Dan altered music room. sits on the piano bench near the door. The father in arm chair Joanie singing a case of you for a snot flutters above in air smoky from Kent one hundreds This poem is from storage unit for the spirit house on Avi.

02:33

Ti anyway, the chapter and chapter from we don't know how many people how many people they arise. We don't know how many people take a night, every day every day. Half a million people at least five or 10 people. Last three days ago my friend Lydia Farfan. Not close. He was missing right now. He went out for his house to buy something at a shop at evening. Maybe 6pm or 7pm. But he didn't come back tonight. His family well. He might be he might be some friends. Today and today. He was a combat so his mother was so worried about him. So she called in the phone was ringing no matter what had to answer the phone every day every day that body was inquiry we missing the upcoming increase in everyday we don't have without me in Hyderabad. Every day we get winded they can't do with time where we do worry about that.

Host  04:48

Before we start today's interview, please allow me a word or two about our podcast. Even as Myanmar plunges into a civil war because of the military's bloody coup, the international community and media organizations of all but turn their impacts on the country and its people. But this humble platform is committed to staying the course. We conduct nuanced long form interviews with a variety of guests connected to Myanmar, so our listeners can better understand the ongoing crisis. Thank you for choosing to spend the next couple of hours with us today. Ah, really really, really, really, really? Good day. Yeah, today yeah.

Laure  06:19

I'm a French journalist in Bangkok. And I was also a media teacher in Myanmar before COVID when it was still possible to travel there. So, when the coup happened on the first of February, some of my former students reached out to me because they were they were now graduating journalists and all of them went into the streets to cover the protests and equal protest. And they publish picture and info some of them work for local media, they asked me Can we can you help us to give an international audience to this event and this picture. So we found the the collective and which is called the Myanmar project collective. And it's a network of, of 10 to 12 people across the country who were trained to professionally media reporting, and will keep sending a picture video waiting articles about precise local events from from 10 different states. So then, we have a team in Bangkok, and with Nadia Obon wheezing. In the Netherlands and with with NGO human rights in the picture, we decided to create a platform with the photographer from the Myanmar project collective as well as other creators. So this is filmmaker and artist. So for the moment, we have a designer photographer, and then one filmmaker, who filmed for four to five months inside Myanmar in different places, and who will co produce and provide long document we very soon with this footage. So this platform is also for him to show his work. And then we have an artist so we have some graphic designer artist, who can also use this, this platform to show their work. So the platform has as to goal is to is to build a professional website where all of the creators of their own profile their own page, so it can be used for them for for internship for work opportunities for CV. It's a it's a memory of the work of the best work that we have crafted that we have edited that we have published. And then the other the other side is there is a donation page because we have several projects. So all the publication we manage to sell to publish in all the monies is sent back to the autos in Myanmar. And this donation page on the website is is a way to continue our our support program will goes from VPN subscription to daily English online lesson and to cash donation to buy material to when you passport to everything that's needed for them to be able to work in safety, some cybersecurity training also. Yeah, and further obviously it's also to keep the lights on what's happening in Myanmar because we know that now it's almost a year and and in The National Interest as dropped a lot, you can see it in the algorithm in the news feature about the country. We have an exhibition also in Bangkok with some of the picture of the collective, about women, especially about the woman who were on the frontline in protests all across the country. And quite a lot of people came and type people and they came and they said, we didn't even know that there was still dramatic events happening in in Myanmar, this was in December. So really after, after 18 months, most people adopt the events. Now it's a bit in Thailand media, again, because it's at the door of Thailand in the sense that 1000s of refugees of Malaysia, are trying to cross to Thailand to go in refugee camps here because the assaults are so violent, and an intense on the other side in communica, your current state. But I mean, in the original international focus, it has slowed down a lot. So we still want to provide updated, checked quality, local information about what's happening there. Yeah, so that's the end.

Brad  11:22

So that's certainly quite a lot of things that you you're taking on for quite a small team, actually very impressive output. The first question, obviously, is, yes, it's, it's excellent that we're giving a platform to these to these talented journalists and to these artists and people who are helping to bring this information. But is there a risk to their safety by having all of this anti coup anti military content hosted on a on a public website, and

Laure  11:54

so the, there is no name and there is no exact places in the in the credit, so each page each photographer as as absurd on him, so it's like a codename. So they can still find the walk under this page. But there is no name, there is no metadata on the picture. And we gave the township for most of them know when it's in a small village, we don't give the name of the village, which we put simply the township Hall, half of at least, at least, let's say half of the team is not at the place, I mean, more of hometowns leaving, because most of the picture, we have a full until end of March, maybe beginning of April, Max, because as you know, the the club down has intensified so much from the end of March that that it became so then joson and impossible for mass protest. So the the journalists don't go out in the streets on more. Because you also know that some journalists have been arrested while programming. And this is obviously something we we really never want to happen. So the street protests are not covered anymore. Most of them are not in the place of hometown anymore, I think so somewhere else. And there is not much way you can you can make a connection between the walk on or themself because the name is not out. So for sure, it's a big concern. Now we have moved to, to let's say, your investigative reporting, and much less in the in the video content or picture. Because it's so it's so dangerous to get out with a camera and take a picture. So now it's simply kind of underground work of casual interviews, while pretending not to not to do it. And this is how we gather information now. So in the in the very close eye on things they report without without being open about it. But mostly take some info. This is what we can do at the moment. We have some of the team was able now to send them a picture of what's happening on the Thai Myanmar border, which is a bit easier because quite a lot of pockets of the not controlled by the military or on the Thai side. It's possible not to see the IDP camps and to visit there. So as much as we we really have to evolve our reporter to make our reporting evolve according to the security situation. So some things are really not possible anymore, because they're like street protests. But other things are still possible. You can still inquire what's happening to the unions in a factory what's happening and the trade The checkpoint at the foot trade the border between Transnet and China that we still use, there is still thing we can know that it's the shape of it that has to change because of safety. So we are also an all of them in, in a cyber security as well as on the ground safety training white after the coup, they were in a session. So this program has been going on for them. And yes, we make, we change every every week, every two weeks. And we monitor the strategy of reporting, to make sure that no one knows who they are and where it comes from. Yeah.

Brad  15:48

And and I think it's very, it's very important to emphasize this, because as you said, it has gotten much more difficult. There have been a lot of crackdowns we saw towards the end of last year during the silent strike. Two reporters, as you know, were arrested and one of them unfortunately died in custody not long after that. And it's almost certain that the that the other reporter or the cameraman was tortured by by security forces. So the the risk to people getting this information is incredibly high. But but we desperately desperately need need to get this information. Yeah, and I want to circle around you. You mentioned we're getting information about things like trade over the borders, checkpoints? What's going on in factories? What sort of value does this sort of let's call it indirect information have to the international audience what can we learn about the situation from this sort of information?

Laure  16:54

I think it's very useful to to be aware of what is the daily life for people and what is the socio economic impact of the of the coup but also all of the global Exoddus of international companies from Myanmar or for sure have both a lot of work opportunities and developments among other issue, but what what does he do when when after a decade of liberalisation reforms will allow all this company to come in in terms of textile, but telecommunication all these aspects of life would have been greatly develop since 10 years, and so there needs in standstill. So we wanted to know what is the reality of it is is really a wishing in essence to economically and if it is, how do people cope with it? Can they cope with it and leaves? Once you know this? You also know how to help that because I think there is even if the interest has gone down for Myanmar. I think they are still people who would like to know would like to help people but if you don't know exactly what the situation you support my be misplaced actually because you don't know where actually where to send it, how to send it and where it gets and where what are the most needs. The main needs Yeah, I think detail information about the impact of the coup on the majority of people in Myanmar is of great value to see how can can NGO Oh companies contribute to a bit soften the the intensity of the of the shock that has been done to the Myanmar society? And if we if you know that some companies have stopped production of stuff, we know actually that some factories have to completely stop simply because most of the stuff worked out as CDM and this has a strong strong impact on a local level when you have one giant factory wire 1000 people and you have 800 people who worked out it has a certain impact and yeah, I think if you if you know what's the situation for people you also know how to to to support them better on this began, it was really emphasizing the case of Telenor owner who choose to to leave the country because it said it couldn't operate under the new rules of the of the soccer that they put on the telecommunication operator which is totally we see rebel as a as an argument but then what do you do with all the user data that are left and and also they needed to be aware that TULINO was really the choice the first choice for for activist even before the coup because it was deemed as the most transparent and so now we have really people freaking out and they pushed to buy my tail and MPT SIM card and data package, because they are the only one who have not been really put up the price. So till you know, and we do and most of the operators are to put up the price to make loss for the profits. And later decided not to even to make discount because as you know, it's military on. So people are saying we are pushed, they make everything they can so we have to buy the products, we have to support the companies. And this is what happened when you when you go out of our country very hastily, without looking behind of the of the impact of all of this. So every every company that was in Myanmar as as our responsibility now because people were somehow dependent of the project and add more more trust in the project than the military on project. So there is still a very strong movement of boycotts against military on Company B telecom b2b or b2c Men's bid supermarket or as it goes wider and flower. So so people are in a situation where they have to boycott the products that are linked to the military, but at the same time, it became the only one available because of the disruption in trading. And this exodus of international companies. So yeah, I think that is really valuable for for policymaking to know this, these things, how what people are subjected to and what they have to do and how they have to cope. And I would, I would also say that our findings show that the main support network for people right now is still the local community, be it religious or non religious. But at the moment, it's the temporary stick churches is the local CEO is the is the ethnic group who provide for their own people. Because the international agency, same that is the companies and yours and you're tied up now laptop, they have to ask authorisation for every single bag of ice to be sent against across the country. So we know why we're in this situation. But the reality is that it's only this local network that makes sure that people still still have something to eat, and they organize the transport to go to refugee camps when it gets really body in the village. So they do all this work on the ground. And I think that knowing this is also helpful in the sense of then it become really abuse, how to help and need to help because they are as I have the access they have the language is a no the needs. So if if the people on the ground that identified we will see make a difference. I think it's very helpful for the international audience to know this. It points you to the right direction.

Brad  24:12

I mean, there's so many things came up to me when you were saying that. So I think the the first thing I'm gonna say for the benefit of people who have not been following the situation as closely. Very recently, I think it was possibly just this month, the military announced that there would be a 15% tax levied on all data purchases, and I think 20,000 Chat tax on all SIM cards. Yeah. Which again, for people outside of this situation 20,000 chat before the coup was a very good day's pay salary for for a laborer or for a plumber or something like this. That's a lot of it is a lot of money, and it goes back to the way either things used to be prior to the relative liberalization of 2010 and 2015, where SIM cards were available, they were just an annual salaries cost $3,000 5000. It's not control of information. And I actually sympathize a lot with Phillimore. Because they tried, they genuinely did the best that they could. They gave full warning throughout March and April and May have required shutdowns and blackouts, and they really did everything they could, but their hands are tied, they can't legally do anything to help the people anymore and the military of driving them from the country very, very deliberately. It's a terrible situation. But the other thing you raised was the textiles, textile factories, for example. And I happened through a different direction. I happen to be doing a little bit of work on this a while ago. And it raised as you say that people walked away because of CDM. And we heard from companies like h&m and a couple of other European companies who have reestablished orders and add connections to textile companies in Myanmar. And they're saying, Well, we have to do this. Because if we don't put orders in, and we don't pay money to the factory, those people don't have a salary. And it's very difficult to explain. The people who left for CDM are not coming back. The people who get that money are probably going to be connected to the military, they're probably going to be cronies, they're probably going to be, you know, informants for the military things like this. So I it really does paint just how many different tiny ways we have to pay attention to the local economic details in order to be ethical, with our investment and ethical without without attempts to help because you are also correct when you say that that one factory might support a local community. And that might be their source of of dinner. It's very tempting to say, Oh, I have to give money to this factory because it will support this village. It may support the village or it may support the military. It's very difficult to research.

Laure  27:19

And it's I think it's important not to put a judgement I know that boycotting or not production in Myanmar was a very heated debate. And I don't think it's my whole to give an opinion on this but stating at least the fact and not judging individually individual choices because you have money. Okay, so most a lot of people have worked out because as we know the factories from young gun or the pockets of unionization in Myanmar before the coup, only only a very small percentage of percent of the Myanmar workers actually were unionized. It was made possible with the liberalisation reform to make our unions finally but in reality it's it's mostly happened in the in the textile factory inland tell ya, I want Yangon. So it's it makes a great difference in the bargaining power. And now with the crew, most of the Union all of the union leaders have been fired or didn't go back to work because they knew that they were on the frontline and will be wasted. So we basically have a situation where there was no unions anymore. And people who went back after maybe some people went back now to the factory maybe after 5678 months big simply by pure desperation, but we have to see that they work and the conditions when nothing is guaranteed for them anymore and the only thing that pushed them to go back is pure desperation. So there you you We could argue that the other solution instead of having people having to go back in a very unsafe place with wage cut off because they use COVID and cool to get the wage also and the lack of unions to cut to wage to cut social benefit that we hardly want in the last decade. So So yeah, so young basically forced to go back to very illegal and unsafe condition, or there is nothing else in some parts of of the country if they don't get donation as CDM workers. And as we know the needs are much greater than what's coming in the country in terms of donation. Even if the Myanmar the IRS provides making incredible conservative efforts to provide every every month it's it's those millions of people who need we need a monthly wage. And I guess the the idea would be to support this, this former employees for the companies maybe in, in in another way. Yeah. And that inside the factory what what was interesting is we met, we interview a former factory worker, a woman in young Ghana, and she chose to not work under the military regime anymore. And then she actually turned into a researcher for smaller CSO NGO on worker working conditions. So actually, this whole terrible event can also be a way to finally make the wise decision and empower people. So she became a researcher on the working condition in the industrial sector or, which is incredible development. So I wouldn't look at it. Yeah, I think looking at it black and white, we put two parts the two sides in, in the in the world, obviously, there is no the situation is so so important that it's it's locked up now, if you if you stop every investment in Myanmar, there will be less currency less cash coming in. But anyway, as we know, very few discussion actually goes to the people. And if you don't invest, actually, you can invest in another way empowering this this people in a in another way. So supporting them in another sort of walk. Because Myanmar had a very short kind of industrial revolution was a way to move from mainly agricultural to full this industrial zone. But now they are in jail, partly because the countries is deemed too unsafe to be to be attractive for international investment. So So what do we do with this with this dogmatic period of time, and this is maybe a period of time where the work of embroiling the workers is still possible, actually, and would be a great use of this of this time. So all this parallel administration in ethics state on the balance school on the parallels clinics, there is way to support civilian resistance groups to to give some, some alternative to the to these people because the alternative of you you sit at home and have nothing to eat, or you go back to a really terrible job not to do not the job, really. But the condition, very unsafe condition is not a choice, and it's not fair to bring on me this to people. So I think I felt alternative way there is, is the way

Brad  33:38

I agree. And I think it's a very, it's one of those strange situations. It's sort of a silver lining sort of case where we say, well, it's terrible that this is happening. It's awful. But in these extreme circumstances, people demonstrate a capacity that they even did not know before that they had. And we see now very rapid advances in people in let's say, you know, inter inter ethnic relations in Myanmar, we see rapid demands for social change for political change, not just returning to the pre coup status quo, but actually moving the country forward positively into a genuine democracy and a genuinely transparent government, which they did not have before. And industrial relations are one of those. I mean, for those who were following, even back then I think it was the 14th of March when they are rose up and set fire to factories and they think the military might have killed about 80 People just in that one district of Yangon in one day. Horrendous, horrendous violence. But you know, the factory workers have no choice. Food does not make itself and and they have nowhere to go and they have nothing that they can do. So, there is that small, small optimism that at the end of all of this, there can be genuine genuine progress and genuine benefit for everyday people that would not have been achieved through the normal political process for many years or possibly even for decades.

Laure  35:20

Yeah, because now they are pushed to a point of, of absolute indignity. And there is no way back for a lot of those people who have choose to work out talk to quite diverse social landscape now from from teacher to factory workers to, to agricultural workers, and some of the one who made the choice to, to work outside, we will never go back and we do our kids when not in school for two years, but we will find ways somehow to educate them outside of the of the system. So the Online is a big part of organizing pickle, you have this myriad of platform, forum, for free education for for universities for to learn about cybersecurity, you have all this this channel on Yeah, on telegram on whatsapp on Facebook on. So I'm not saying that it's it's a satisfactory replacement for quality education or health care. But I'm just saying that the will of people to build something parallel and the determination to not be part of the military system is still very strong. And what we have seen is, is the main cook, I mean, I don't say, I'm not sure we can call this coping mechanism. But how what do people do in time of crisis actually is the same in every, in every country at every crisis. When the teacher and the doctors lost the last day jobs, they were already not paid very well, what we saw is that most of them, they move to, to sell things online to buy at the market. So you go back to some kind of manual jobs. But on the free times, they are still doing voluntary job to teach the kids I want in unable to wipe Hogan online that people can print and study themselves. And so whether we what we see is that really a sense of of sacrifice, they sacrifice the curry on the stages for political ideology. And this has to be respected, and how they live is with the small help of local networks, as it was always the case in Myanmar, really, at any time of the country, people only can rely on their local communities for most of their needs. And building on this, and so I think all these parallel initiatives are the one who needs to be strengthening and supported them. So people have a have a shared way to exist and to survive. This, this time in economic dignity without losing the right to express my political opinions.

Brad  38:46

I mean, to to gain, I think the right to express a political opinion for for the first time really,

Laure  38:51

yeah, I mean, in the country's history CBMC the army is the next question of politics now. So so this and putting your child at school, and it's it's the choice of most people on a test to be respected, and if the international community wants to have Aniol, in this at this time, interests to, to integrate into into these realities.

Brad  39:24

And so, I'm glad that you raised the point of the international community. And towards the beginning of the interview you mentioned as well, that we can see from the analytics we can see from the statistics, and also from from anecdotal evidence that people internationally are not aware of the ongoing crisis. And that could be as you know, something like Thailand, a neighboring country, and not only a neighboring country, but a neighboring country that has taken a very large sudden influx of Myanmar refugees. And yet there are people into I learned to do not recognize and I'm not aware of the scale of the crisis, definitely in Europe, in North America in Australia, the message is, is being lost the interest in the case is being lost. It was it was fun to watch back in February, early March. And then after that he got boring. So the question is, what do you think that we can do, in order to increase awareness of this crisis internationally?

Laure  40:32

I think in our small scale, we are we produce so we do what we, we train, and we can do which is continue to report every day on collect documents every day what's happening in the in the country, check it, white sheets and publish it in English, but also in in Burmese, this will be the the goal afterwards. So continue to write about it, at least for us, we're in the region. But we do it and then in the so it has to be in the media. And then I guess what's helping is when you make some kind of link with your own country. So for the for the Americans is a good angle it on Shavon. And the French, we should do more about total. And when you when you put some kind of angle that the EU country or some kind of responsibility in in the fate of another country, this will be helpful, too. So there was I know that some countries in Europe like like Czech Republic seems to vary on the case with Myanmar, because they politician, some of the politician, mainly the mayor of hard is really supportive of the Progress democracy movement in Myanmar. So I would say that it's, it's global noise is the media, it's when you have some politician who have some ear to the problem. We have some people at the Senate and the parliament in France were really committed to keep Myanmar on the agenda, and the way they are hearing with you is the national unity government. In Paris, and in the US, too, you have some people who really push. So I think if the if the media and the politics can have some kind of influence in their own country, on the economic impact, because this is how it work. If you say it enough in the newspaper, and then the politician feels a have to do something with the economic interest of the country who which are not sitting well with the values in some countries. So yeah, we have the all to continue writing about the politics of the hole to continue talking about it in Parliament, and then the leadership and I would say at least at least people were so I'd say infuse, I mean when when when there was the election in 2015, it was a big thing. There was a lot of interest in the country, they were there a lot of investment, and I feel that people should continue to, to inform themselves about what's happening now. Because it's not only when you can go there on holidays and make money by your opinion, actually, that the country is interesting. It's like it's like now it's really now the real moment where people need to be supported and and I think it's it's important to explain to people that support can go so far and give them clear ID of the situation in the country and then according to what they want to descend, they can only also contribute to very precise initiatives. So some people want to buy art from from Burmese artists, some people wants to support journalists, some people want to support the union leaders according to what you values are. So I think it's it's our role to tell people what's happening and to give them the the path of being able to to help and actually the worst some, I feel it in I'm telling you this Because when when the railway workers the railway workers in Yangon were one of the first to go in in CDM pretty fully, the train was stopped pretty quickly because they was a worked out a lot of them. And then the railway workers union in France who is very powerful as you might note and stop the train, as they wish very regularly in France. So they actually made a video in support of the railway workers from Yangon. So I thought that was really super interesting the international solidarity beyond the elites also now beyond the the political and economic elites that that are so slow to move because bound by so much interest, but I really like the on the on the street to working class, global solidarity that is also happening actually amongst the, the Thai and the Burmese youth. That was really fascinating in in Bangkok, just after the coup on the day after the Myanmar community organized the demonstration in front of the Myanmar Embassy in Bangkok. And quite a lot of Thai people come from the pro democracy groups, student groups from Thailand. And then it was I think it's the first time I saw a we saw only one saw Thai in Myanmar people the most waiting together for for democracy in the in the country. And maybe one two months later, there was a big protest in the middle of Bangkok in front of the bhcc to in support of the holies of stage student political prisoners. And actually is a biggie is a both pans and pots because they saw this for Myanmar. So we had pans and pots heating in the middle of Bangkok, and that was taking from the Myanmar people who also came to this. So yeah, I think this was really fascinating. And it gives hope in the as I said, the political and economic powers takes a lot to change is ever but on the streets, people are aware of of the of the share the oppression and issue and show some solidarity. So I thought that was really, really interesting to keep it on the on the agenda.

Brad  47:35

And, and I agree, and it really sort of shows I mean, especially the example with the railway workers, shows that they can engage with an issue and they can be interested in the issue. Yes. I mean, I don't know whether it was politics or whether they just enjoy seeing people protesting on the railways. But in any event, whether it was

Laure  47:56

as a way away of the Creed, Myanmar, and they said, we really support you, in you in you fight for freedom and workers rights. And so yeah, I think if you explain to people how actually the situation in Myanmar and what people go through, anyone can relate in maybe one aspects or all aspects or needs, okay, we have to explain to them is our workers and they have the same needs. And you know why it's and I think when he puts in this words, it's actually pretty effective.

Brad  48:36

But then this for me just raises this question of, and maybe you as a journalist would have better insight. Why has normal reporting not succeeded? I mean, the images that we have, you know, we have some truly horrendous and grotesque things that we've seen. You know, we've seen the beatings, we've seen the murders, we've seen the bodies being burned, all these sorts of things. These are shocking. And any normal person would look at that and say, Well, this is horrendous, and we should intervene. Because this is not a political disagreement that this is these are crimes against humanity, very clear and very obvious crimes against humanity. This is this is not about what do I support this party? How do I support that party? This is far beyond that. Why has it not succeeded? Why have people not engaged with an issue where these atrocities are happening regularly? And where we have the necessary footage and we have the necessary images to illustrate and to prove these atrocities? Why have people switched off?

Laure  49:42

I'm not sure if people have switch off or if it's the newspaper we have decided to talk less about it. You know what I mean? Is it is it people who are not interested? Or is it that media don't buy stories from Myanmar from Freelancer anymore? So this this the to question and the lack of interest from the media might be, as I said, in France, if you don't put total in the story, it's really difficult for people to relate, you know, it's far there is no, there is no connection, really the young this economic interest with the country. For the US, it's a bit different. But as we know, now, China and Russia are the main economic partners of Myanmar. And they have no interest of providing this kind of information in their media. So you have the two most most important economic power partners. With the with Myanmar, we have absolutely no interest of having this information out in the media. And then you have the let's say, the cluster of the world but the rest of the international community was far less interest beyond the pipeline. Total shame on and the tie on the Korean one beyond this. If you have no no economic interest, there is no no political no interest. And then there is nothing in the media is I see it a bit like this, too, because for for example, in France, when there was what we call the Arab revolution, it was widely widely covered for years in France simply because France still have so much influence there. So it's also what's in the newspaper. It's also dictated by your by the interest of one country and Myanmar now is Yeah, China, Russia and then you have India was also some interesting Myanmar, but who is so engulfed in his own in his own issues of constant election and tension and division, and, and they have lost it. The influence on the on the country's I want to say I've lost after the earthquake in Nepal, China stepped in and India basically lost the influence on napalm because they behaved very badly now they put our boy codes and didn't support properly some of the politics on the way to China and India as shown some support before the coup or so by sending vaccine and stuff to Myanmar. With there is no real commitment to the, to the pro democracy side, that's for sure from from the money administration. So I what I would say is like the three big powers are ones, Myanmar have no interest that this goes out and the rest as not enough influence anymore in Southeast Asia in general, but also in Myanmar, to push this in the agenda. So I think public opinion it's both ways I can shape politics, but also is shaped by politics. So if you don't, if you see it every day, on the newspaper, you will care. But if you don't, it will sweep away. So I think at the end, it's choices that are be beyond us now.

Brad  53:50

This is the problem with the businesses influencing politics, politics, influencing the newspaper newspaper influencing the people. It's a cycle, it's a cycle, and somehow we need to break that cycle. So do you find that the sort of content that you produce over at visual rebellion? Do you find that that is is picked up differently by audiences do they engage with a differently than traditional media?

Laure  54:21

So what we do two different things in the sense of, we put original content in this website now visual orbelian.org Oh, so this is the selection of the best work in image and videos of our collective. And then since February, we collaborate with publication for the moment mainly media pack, which is this French investigative newspaper. I'm a correspondent for here. And the ad was too wide in collaboration We speak on inside the country, the day to day on the ground. Reality is the picture the info? And do we do it differently than the other? I would say that at least we do it, we try to do it on the long term. Because also some of the we are working. So at the beginning, I told you we were doing this news kind of day by day street protest, and then it becomes too dangerous. And it's not become irrelevant, but you said it also how many the this picture you're gonna put on show. And it's like at one point, it's also about dignity and what narrative we choose to talk about this war that is actually happening now I it's still important for sure to say that people have been in extremely abusing terrific ways. But do we need to see the kid every day? Does does we this increase the interest? I'm not to show at the end? I think what will increase is that you explain people properly? What what is the situation when a long term so from June, we moved on to investigative reporting when we follow one issue. So it can be the cybersecurity it can be the situation on the pipeline, it can be the union in factories are as I told you, them? What's happening and the Chinese border so this this long lasting economic impact? Well, what is the what was really the reality of COVID? Because we were everything about it in Myanmar, but really, what was it in the scale of a real edge? How did it happen? So I'm not I don't know if you're doing better, but what we are doing is for sure, long term fact check by people who have been professionally trained to be journalist on one issue on one place. So this is why what we offer is localize checked information that will be constantly updated them. And I think maybe maybe now it's difficult to ask people read this long report and stuff, but I think it will have some, some use to document all of this properly and in details. And on the side we are we understand the fact that how it works now the landscape of information, the social media, that people really click on image, and videos and videos, not more than two minutes. And so we create also this, on the website, we create these videos, we have this post, we have this picture, because we simply know that it's much more easily shareable and that people stop at it. And that Facebook algorithm will always promote image particularly and then we do so you think you have to juggle all these things doing very quality, good quality, long term content that will be useful, we hope to the to the society or at least PolicyMaking at large. But also keeping the interest on a day by day basis by this vehicle, easy to share direct testimony on social media. So yeah, I think we have to play the game while fighting it and still see continuing everyday because there is no other way it's also a question of respect for for the dozens of local media house in Myanmar who have been forced on the ground into hiding and they still continue to everyday to report they call people in Myanmar they weigh the exclusive local interviews. And if they still do it, there is no reason we should not do it from the safety of Bangkok so we the team is coordinating here but actually most of the team is in is in Myanmar and they need to be yeah to be supported and to be able to continue to do this this work because asked for the woman factory worker I told you about to become a researcher on workers rights I think for for our, for the members of our team, and especially the journalists were pretty young and they just went out of school when it happened, the cooling the COVID. So it's at this moment that they need to be supported because it's the is the is the first entrance into the job. In at the hardest of times, I always said if this happened to me at 20 years old, there is a coup in my country just after I finish my journalists school and that I'm in the front line of people who are targeted me because of the job, I really would have like some some support network. So yeah, this is what we doing because this, it's now that they need the message to to be emphasized. And if at least we can provide some logistical help, that's going to because it's really, really necessary that this, this Myanmar media can still function because it is the is the only thing we have now, to know what's happening in the in the country, most of us foreign journalists in Southeast Asia have not been able to enter Myanmar since COVID, even and then the crew, it's completely impossible. So the source of information is Myanmar journalist, we're in a really difficult situation. So that's the, the That's them. That's them, we have to be supportive, because they are the only source for all of us to know what's what's happening in the country now.

Brad  1:01:49

Yeah. I mean, it, it's sort of easy to think about the parallel to the medical students, you know, there are a lot of medical students who are in university, now that COVID has hit. And they suddenly have to, before even finishing their medical degrees, they're being recruited by governments as like, Okay, you have to go do testing, you have to do you know, PCR, you have to do vaccines, you know, you have to be on the front lines of a medical crisis, because this is the situation that we have, and thinking about their difficulties gives us a reference point, to understanding the difficulties of fresh journalists, students who don't have the training, and they don't have the experience yet. And they're thrown into this situation. Yeah. And you talk about the training. And you talk about you talk about, you know, the cybersecurity, you talk about the VPN, you talk about all of these different elements that we now see, as very important, very relevant. But you also mentioned before, the algorithm, Facebook algorithm, YouTube algorithm, which is Google runs YouTube, these are notorious. And one of the notorious elements of the algorithms is that they reinforce information that people already exposed themselves to, and they don't tend to want to share information, which is seen as upsetting or negative. Do you think that there's been a role of the algorithms in in working against spreading the information about Myanmar?

Laure  1:03:21

Oh, that's, that's a huge pot we just opened the tricky one. No, no, no, because actually, it's something we we research pretty deeply. Our first report is about this now the world, the world that has moved, that will be published very soon, in a few days, and the world that has moved online, the world of information. And so there is different aspects to that. Facebook, Twitter, tick tock platform at the beginning of the coup actually, has been point, fingered for the inability to regulate military propaganda content. So you might remember that at the beginning, when people went in the streets, you or the soldiers went online and made videos saying, if you still continue, you will take one in the head and I will shoot with a bullet and so there was all these threatening videos which was spreading and the platform's took weeks or months for some of them to do anything about it. So there was this responsibility of the for money was announced they don't have the human resources or the interest or the sense of responsibility or the reactivity or the so this is all the reason I there. But then you you talk about the bubbles and this is a A huge problem because now you have, you have basically for democracy and for military camp who are fighting online to with different accounts. So you have, you have actually pro military, civilians or soldiers, we're creating Facebook account with framing of the CDM, or energy or PDF to be able to make call them or classy friends based on the profile, similar profile picture. And to see what they say. And then you have the idea that some some PDF, some CDM, people do the reverse, they befriend military soldiers who have a Buddha, the word tatmadaw, or something in the profile, picture or name. And then it's just this this insane game of spying on each other or so these are the cracks in the bubble. Because people who don't do this are only exposed by the nature of this platform and your interest, how they judge you opinions and the interest you will be all only exposed to, to what you already agree with. Most of the time. So this is the real problem of Facebook still being the main source of information in Myanmar. And we had, we made a small survey, we have our own scale, it's nothing scientific, but just on an index the ticket level, we asked 100 people inside Myanmar in September 2021. From very the different background casual survey. What do you use on on your smartphone and 80% of the people still only use Facebook for everything for talking for Miss for sharing information for reading information for buying stuff. So it's just you have an immense hole of Facebook in Myanmar that I can explain more but I'm sure people familiar with is Myanmar? No, no, why No, you know, when in 2000, from 10 to 15, you buy a smartphone in Yangon and Facebook is already set up on it. Because Facebook had some deals we still you know, and some telecom operators to have the app set up straight on the on the thing and as we know, the digital literacy was non existent in Myanmar, because its age, it was jumped from not even a landline suddenly to, to everybody a smartphone. So yeah, Facebook, became the internet and is still the internet, despite all the disruption of the last month. So you have this you have this big wall, you have Facebook, it was much too important enough as a foreign company in this in this country, without the education that go visit or without the human resources in the Facebook team to take down the things in time that should be taking down. As we we know that there is this court case, no. Facebook at the Washington court at the moment, watered by by CSO representing the winger community because I could prove that Facebook really inflammatory whole in what's happening I can state from 2016 onwards. And this has been magnified, obviously, since the coup because now all sorts of other communities are being targeted in the same way by this really inflammatory fake news post. But But yeah, our conclusion is that you you cannot, you can ask them to take more responsibility. But at the end it's the role of a society to build his own media sources and his own critical thinking on his own education so that people are less vulnerable to such money making profit platform functioning. So if we have something else to offer to be burning them of information, and then Facebook loses a bit of its its value, but this only works is media properly founded and able to operate in the country and we know that in Myanmar even before the access to information and to resources from your Myanmar media was already very scary. US. So you cannot fight free Facebook with your little newspaper then in, in, in prospective future with with hopefully return of the rule of law and then then you can have some kind of support system appropriate post conceal, will looks at ethics and the ontology and the relationship with money and with interview partners and there is actually a lot of potential and there is a lot of thinking people who think about it in Myanmar and I think if even in exile, it would actually be possible for, for Myanmar media to, to kind of gather in, in in our console and to agree on some rules, because we saw that the PDF soldiers have rules of behavior or not. So why not the Myanmar media in exile could agree on some on some rules, and this would then increase the confidence of the public who then be less vulnerable to, to, as I said, all this monopoly of information by free platforms. So yeah, it's a big big question, but they are solution. Now the solution and like for for the West, Myanmar is just as experienced such shocks in every aspects in the last month we turn the year on this, the more information the economy, the the conflict, the disease, and now is this very horrible time where everything pops up at the surface? And now for all to see, we can really see what the issue really clearly and and yeah, I think the odds were a clear for all and within strengthening strengthen the independent media is the only way to, to fight. Disinformation, I would say and make sure that the state the company cannot have any influence on it. Yeah.

Brad  1:12:24

So I mean, that's a, it's a good goal to have, it's just a very difficult, very high bar to reach. So as you say, Facebook is automatic, in Myanmar. And this, this is in large part because of the absence of net neutrality. So I think as a side note, for many people in the West, because net neutrality was a was a talking point. In the West a few years ago, there were talks of removing net neutrality. And people were talking and I said, Well, you know, maybe it's a good thing. Maybe it's a bad thing. We don't know what would happen. We do. We can look at Myanmar. And we can look at the way that Facebook cornered the market. And because Facebook data were free or were much much cheaper than normal internet data, they were able to dominate. All information services, trade, business, everything job interviews are done on Facebook. Facebook is everything in Myanmar, because the videos are the posts we're talking about a very small, it allows people to make lots of them like a journalist writing a 5000 word essay, is researching for weeks months, writing, rewriting editing. One person on Tik Tok posting a 32nd video alleging that a crime happened with no evidence takes 30 seconds. And then he can make another one and another one and another one. And only one of those videos has to be viral. All of the other ones can fail. It doesn't matter. So they're flooding the market. So what I'm asking is even if the media groups unify, and they come up with rules, and they have standards and professional principles, can they compete with these these fake news factories that we see on Tiktok and Instagram and even YouTube even Facebook?

Laure  1:14:20

I don't think they really compete in the sense of it might not be it can be the same audience. But I don't think the idea is to is to compete we are simply doing different jobs in different shapes and I'm not judging the micro content strategy of people who do two minutes video and stuff when it's fake. That is the problem is not the format of the problem is the content. No. So I think that if if someone writes a 5000 words about a really potent investigation that is of public color events, I think it will find its readers because you have many people in Myanmar or interested by Myanmar wants to read the details. So I just think it's a different audience. It's not mostly competition. But how I could see maybe some way forward. Actually, not only for the young generation, but for a new generation. It's it's some, yeah, digital media training in the sense of how we consume information. I know that in France, I don't know in many countries, you have this now in in France at one point in our schooling. We are the last son of actually what's the what's the media landscape in France? What are the Illinois main newspaper? What are the political lines? And they tell you at Yeah, at 1516, okay, this is from the y this is from the left, this is conservative, this is economics. So you know, actually where you going, you know, who is behind. And I think this is really helpful, because diversity should be there. But people should know where they put their feet in. And this can also be done by, by journalists themselves, or by activists, you have all this, this mapping your friends, we have all these maps of who owns which media, what kind of content can sit as. And this is all information that is findable. The only thing is to bring it to people in a viral way. So it can be by tweets, I also think that journalists should think a bit more about being more that you can collate more, reach more change the format not do this heavy, academic long, wide thing we should also do it for some issue for some reason, but it should be balanced with this easy to consume easy to read very valuable information. So yeah, for example, once the media is good, and is it easy to journalists behind because some of my Burmese colleague, John Aliza is a Tommy's so all this new kind of publication where it's not really journalists behind it simply for military people who set up a paper to occupy the market now that the independent media gone and cannot function anymore. So it's like it's Do not leave the floor No, it's really important that we don't leave the floor to only call military information that we call propaganda but yeah, we they are because they are they have to and if there is a void that will be filled by someone else. So if there is a void Facebook fill the void now at the beginning of Myanmar and then some media managed to fight back to exist we have this incredible publication in Myanmar from local to to English speaking. Were really doing great work and now they are basically unable to function properly they still do but they don't have the Yeah, there was also safety the weather military have so they are producing their own information channel and flooding and this is really important to counteract this in any way. You can simply by factually verified information that you put out there on because I don't think we will win against there is no victory against Facebook or anything the the only important thing is not to leave the floor to offer different things to people in the hope that the fact checked. Non inflammatory content will reach the most people and cut the influence somehow of content who is doing the opposite to to feel tensions and which is simply not true. Yeah, so I think that's a big field, but it's totally possible possible you have the you have you have the people who can do this in Myanmar and these workshops. You have, you have the thinking you have a is it possible even now, using online actually to talk about this because you have as I said, you of course about everything now, online you can You can take pause you can pause through your studies you have all these cybersecurity safety clinics you have all these tips. So it's simply playing the game of the algorithm to reach as many people as you can. With with factually, HoloLens information is I would say is the is the game and for this we need Myanmar media house to be to be able to work and to have the resources to, to do it. Yes, so this is why a big part also of the of our website is providing a straightforward platform forum for donation because this is the only way to continue the information being produced.

Brad  1:20:49

And, and certainly will make it easier for people who want to donate to find those donation links and make sure that the people who need those goods can an education can receive them. Yeah. I want to segue though, just on this topic of getting the information out there. You mentioned at the very beginning that you are your team is working on a documentary, can you tell us anything about that?

Laure  1:21:16

So this is so our team as I said, these men mainly are photographer, journalist, and then filmmaker and artist. So we have a team of filmmakers who filmed in Yangon Kelvin state for close to four months after the coup four to five months after the coup and all the footage has been saved so it's it's about people in the street but it's also about their own experience of suddenly the how they personally experience of being filmmaker in Myanmar was completely changed my taste brutalized by the crew. And as they had to completely change their way of working their way of living they were in hiding so all the footage was sent to us and saved and said we are on the hunt we have only this Can we do something with it. So Andy from our team with who is responsible for the video is working on making the most compelling documentary can based on this footage, so it will be obviously credited to the to the females in Myanmar, but they simply don't have the time or the possibility right now to to put it together themselves. So we are just helping in this way to shape it, but this will be their story. So it will be a documentary that we hope to, to release in a few weeks about the personal experience of covering the photofacials months of the coup close very close to the frontline of people protesting so yeah, we already have a series of other videos so this is this will be 2025 minutes and before this we produce all the kinds of small films it's two minutes for T we have a series of free for now but we aim for for 10 So it's audios that are sent to me. So I just wanted to mention before when you talk about safety that actually I'm the I'm the only one who knows who the people are be and even the people in the in the team don't know so the safety is also there that time the only person who know who they are. So this is why they sent to to meet the audio, which we'll come to later on. And they sent me with you about Yeah, what is it? How is it the life in Yangon when you cover protests when you have to hide in a house or three days all the things that we heard vaguely on in in some media at the beginning, but it's still happening. So we are doing this this video based on audios plus covered with video and image that were filmed from the street by our team. So this is episodes of two minutes for tea and from really from the from the ground. It talks when he's on this to eat and so, we want to show the direct experience also of people but also what it is to be a journalist a filmmaker right now in Myanmar where the impact to the creative community so also in in the hope that all the creative community in the in the world we will emphasize with them and make some kind of yeah collaborations report we are trying to have some international media to, to broadcast our videos to it's because it's always about spreading the word not spreading the word showing the incredible work to the most people possible and providing the funds so, they can continue to do this and provide this public service for the society to circle our conversation back journalism in the in the EDL and is what we are supposed to do we provide the information society needs to make informed political and daily life choices. And obviously, a free press is a function in press is totally necessary the functioning of of a society. Now, the situation Myanmar is in now, the need for say on verify information is even bigger than any times now of the country. So, this is the this is the big picture we are trying to at the end is providing public information to people inside Myanmar but also outside Myanmar want to support them, and give them the maybe the pathways to do it the best by giving the most details. And yeah, this is only possible if if then people know the value of John and Eastman domani Myanmar and this is what we are trying to show in many different ways with our website and and our Walker. So I think I will just add something if it's fine. That some of the some of our team, I would say half of the people have been subjected to really odd things in the course of their jobs. So some of them have been injured in the in the protest Shut up by police. And because they were taking pictures, they had to leave the house straight away to go into hiding into another state because they were identified as a US journalist in a pretty smelly small place where there is not many some of them were attacked by flags you have also you have also figs hired by the regime at the moment to not at the moment actually it was doing the protests in February March in Yangon, where they would simply beat up and steal everything from from young people in the street who look like student protester on so one of our journalists was victim of this attack was punishment, they took everything from him laptop, the camera on the phone and paper. So I'm saying this to say that it's not it's it's not charity, what we doing we giving we paying people when they produce the content and send it and publish it. But also the needs are just immense and go beyond the professional in the sense of it's just so dangerous to be a journalist at the moment in Myanmar and and so this is why this this money's goes in in very different ways now to to help them secure to help them secure or safe passage passage to another state to help them buy another phone or camera when it has been taking or stolen from them. It's really this this walk situation. And we have also a colleague who was not part of the collective we're colleagues of colleagues who have been arrested and she's in jail now for four months. And so model was relying on the income. So there is also the need to support the families of journalists who cannot work anymore. So what I'm saying is that it really goes a long long way. When we provide the basic resources like with with one laptop, you can have 10 people working on it and writing stories and so, we are really trying to cover every aspects of of the basic needs because if this is not covered, they cannot work and really want to attract the attention of the of the fact that that Myanmar is now wearing the top three of kind of the most dangerous countries for journalists now after China and Iran. So it's yeah, just want to say it's absolutely critical for the reason I expose before that this these people are supported because they work as a as a huge influence in their own community and society. And we provide different ways you can you can offer yourself as a mentor if you have a specific skills if you are a photojournalist, if you are the one mental defend or if you have a specific skill, we are happy to set up sessions of of training and conferences where you can talk to our team for one to two hours and sharing what you know to help continuing the training and you know, the ways the donation are used for the for the VPN for the material for English lessons so all of them have been an all in our daily English lesson course that we created especially for journalists so it's learning English via media with two certified English teacher here on the MS and when English and and yeah for people who are in real world NJ we are to to make sure they were they were settled in another place and to pay for for passports and to pay for vaccine and to pay for for this thing so they can function. So I hope some people will come visit our site we are on all the the social media to fight back on their own ground so we on Facebook Twitter, ticker Kim visual Korbinian Myanmar and I hope you can appreciate and support our work somehow

1:33:02

my house I mean my real house. The police came to my house after the tagging around my house. One hour, they leave they don't know anything. They just want to reverse that and they just want you to that. They know who you are. was really lucky for me. I was at home. He loves to come to my house and find out about the products. My family was really, really scared about that. I would truly everything about that I was I was hired I was hired in my my front house.

1:34:03

It was really lucky for me. That was so close. It was maybe it might give the information to that belief.

1:34:16

Because he was come to the house right on time. We have really realized they can come back for a long time. At least three men our four men. The knife, three of five go another place to live. No, I shouldn't live one place for a while. I was highlight to everyone. It was better for me.

Brad  1:35:02

So we're now fortunate enough to be joined by one of the photo journalists from visual rebellion, who's going to talk to us about his role in the photography and the research elements of the overall project. But before we get too deep into that, let me just let you introduce yourself. Can you tell us briefly what it is that you do at visual rebellion

Khant Pyae Kyaw  1:35:22

I'm just a journalist who has just graduated. When I finished high school, I did not want to go to university or college. I did not want to be a student animal, maybe because I hated the education 16 I was looking for some nine nine government Institute or college or somewhere unquote, learn something for a profession. Fortunately, one of my brother work in media teaching. So he told me that I might be able to find a profession in tech sector. And then I choose to attend the one year diploma coasts in multimedia journalism. This is how I came into this journalism war. And yeah, after this law law was a trainer in Yangon back in 2019. So we know each other since then. And after I was doing my job. After the coup, I was doing my job after the coup. Yep. You know what? My job tantalising, going to the protests, taking pictures, making interviews, and I posted some pictures of my on social media allow our CFO who is a French journalists, all my pictures. And she wanted to produce some story together with me and my other friends who are also journalists, for a French news company. Yeah, I don't know work for a local media yet. And I was not a journalist at the time with a coup, but but I was just doing my job under military dictatorship. Law. I saw my pictures on social media and she wanted to produce what together with us does, how was your rebellion? Myanmar founded? Yeah.

Brad  1:37:27

So at the at the time of the coup, so that was almost one year ago? How much media experience how much media training did you have?

Khant Pyae Kyaw  1:37:41

We we have just around 10 journalists on this platform, be sure rebellion Myanmar are then a young reporter, like me, who has just graduated from journalism school. We have we have just like I said, we a yen and Experian journalists? Oh, yes. As you know, under the military dictatorship, it is very difficult to do our job journalists and It aspires to wish the Iraq stood and even brutally key everyone who was against them. And it is very easy for them to arrest everyone, no matter what you do, no matter what you say. And it doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you are an innocent civilian or not, but you are a journalist, you are almost a team to be arrested. Let me let me let me talk about my experience, reporting and a military dictatorship. Yeah, it was the hardest part when I was writing an article about Chag or your refinery. When I went to talk, I was into interrogator, they asked me what I was coming for. What I was going to in the towel, and if only I take my if only I took my camera with me. I would definitely be arrested. But I want to do so what's the phone to take picture to record some interview? And they check they check on on people my age mo because they think people my age might be PDF, people different forces. Yeah, I took the most rig and took most time to work on it. I say are the facts I could go in person and on the internet as well. I did it in a very difficult situation. I went to a town quite far from my place to talk and know more about the loca it was the hardest story and work home because the soldiers prison around the factory and on the road. But stay the best way I guess. Yep.

Brad  1:39:57

Well, and so when did you When did you begin covering the coup? Did you start on the very first day? Or was it a few weeks before you began to start documenting?

Khant Pyae Kyaw  1:40:10

Yeah, I started a few weeks, a few days after the coup, because there are there were so many protests in our town after the after just just after the coup. So I had to go to the protest to the demonstration and took pictures make interview. Yep. So

Brad  1:40:35

and with a peaceful protests, when you when you started doing your reporting, where the protests relatively peaceful,

Khant Pyae Kyaw  1:40:42

you're in the first day of demonstration? Yeah, it was peaceful. Starting from much three that you studied, she will live ammunition or like tear gases. And then they K they kill a student who is also 19, an engineering student. He fell to the ground. I saw it when my O eyes and at the nice day, there were there were no protests. Animal. Send, buddy. Yeah.

Brad  1:41:20

Wow. And so what I'm wondering is, has anyone else reached out to you other than then visual rebellion? Have you been contacted? Or have you had the opportunity to work with large media organizations to spread awareness?

Khant Pyae Kyaw  1:41:38

No, I haven't been. Yeah. I have I have not I have to work in local media yet. i We have contacts from all over the country all over the country. And Obama, central Baltimore, and including Yangon are often graduate different channels and secured together with me in the same year. Often a very talented, they have a diploma for multimedia journalism, so they can write and produce tech story. And they can also take very good pictures because they understand and be proficient in photojournalism. We produce documentary as well. And we have learned everything about Jonathan. So I believe that visual rebellion can reach a certain level in a short time, if there's a national poll.

Brad  1:42:36

Okay. I mean, it's definitely important for us to, to achieve because, as I say, and as you're aware, many of the international media organizations are just not focused on Myanmar, many of them have left Myanmar, and the few that do focus on Myanmar issues still, they desperately need and they rely on the Myanmar journalists, the young Myanmar journalists, like you who get the photos and who get the images and who reveal those stories. And so that's something that I want to ask you about. As as a journalist covering the coup covering the dictatorship covering the crisis, really, what are the sorts of things that you've seen? What are the sorts of things that you've written about and photographed?

Khant Pyae Kyaw  1:43:24

So I'm going to tell what I saw after the coup if Dan, Bishop rebellion. Yep. So So mostly, I'm a former journalist, so I took pictures. I took so many pictures. No, not in the video that much. I don't do video that much. So I took mostly pictures and a rag story about mostly about the protects demonstration. As I said, on the third of March, when student and engineering student was killed in front of my eye, and I saw it with my own eyes, he is my friend in high school. Must three one person was killed during the protests, he is my friend and engineering student. And I saw it with my own eyes. And in that day, at least 10 were in jewelry. And I was the only reporter there. I was the only one who with the camera and took a picture of the injury. The people they have been that there have been no protect since that day. And no, no me just shooting half and taken. Yeah, those are. So what we

Brad  1:44:50

have been seeing over the last six seven months is that interest internationally in Myanmar has been dropping not Many people are engaging with the crisis. Do you as a journalist have any ideas, what we can do to increase engagement to increase interest in the international community,

Khant Pyae Kyaw  1:45:14

Myanmar has been enter to share for more than 16 years. So these are no longer special. This is not a new coup. So it is not surprising that the international community has been decreased the interests so in addition to what No, no one has been able to do anything about the scaling of ethnic ruse by buying the military in bomber, so international interests, in my mind maybe too crazy, because they are more important issues than Myanmar. And no one could do anything on the case like Rohingya people in Rakhine State. So I think it is not. It is not surprising they, they lose interest on that.

Brad  1:46:18

But what can we do to regain interest because the international communities pressure is very important. It's important to stop companies from giving money to the hunter, it's important to pressure governments to sanction and take action. So it's very important that people know what is happening, and that journalists can inform them, but how can we make people interested?

Khant Pyae Kyaw  1:46:44

I think the only way to regain interact on Myanmar, is x, this restaurant quality of national unity compliment, especially and think so many young people in Myanmar including Sam, PDF, PDF soldier, they do not or they do not believe in a new GE, I don't know why they just do not believe. So. I think we have to fight. We have to fight for our staff. And and I think we they many PDF, they do not rely on international community, they are doing their job whether they do not care about eggs or not. So I don't know, around to regain the interaction.

Brad  1:47:39

Interesting. So then, in that case, if you if you're saying it is the responsibility of the national unity government, what so what function what role do you see for journalism in in helping to end this crisis?

Khant Pyae Kyaw  1:47:56

We have to do our job of journalism, like usual. And under military dictatorship, it is not in the best of all that you do not want to be a journalist animal, we must try to have our country as much as we can with what we have learned. So we will continue to work and at the monitor dictator, disappear and to the military dictator disappear at the will the will heart bots anyway.

Brad  1:48:32

But like, what role do you think this has? So why? How do you think journalism will help to end the dictatorship

Khant Pyae Kyaw  1:48:39

journalism will have will have to end the dictatorship. Of course, it is all about letting the war know about where scoring was gory. What was happening in Myanmar, without jobs in the wild would be ignorant journalism is important because because it gives current and relevant information and news to the public. And and of course, to regain the interest again, from the international community. And I will go is to make to do to continue covering what is happening in Myanmar in town location are so well. There are not many journalists left animal bring to the wall professional images, videos or research by Luca train reporters provide a platform while donations are easy to make so we can continue supporting the predictions content.

Brad  1:49:38

And so you talk about it. It's difficult for to find journalists, many of the journalists have left. We've seen a rise in amateur journalists. So normal people, they have a camera phone, they take photo they take video. Do you think there is a difference in what a professional journalist can do? And what an amateur journalists can do.

Khant Pyae Kyaw  1:50:02

Yeah. There is so much difference between amateur journalists and the professional journalists because we we have now so many journalists called citizen journalists. They are like normal people. They just took picture. They just take pictures and posted on the Internet or somewhere. Yeah, they're just normal people like as, but they are not trained journalists. And we have so many kinds of journalists and the military coup. They are so they are so much different obviously.

Host  1:51:02

Want to present a special opportunity for donors who are committed to our show? While we want to stress that we greatly appreciate donations of any size, larger donations, of course, are particularly helpful. For that reason we're encouraging donors with means to consider sponsoring a full episode for a one time donation of $350 or more. Donations in this category can include a dedication if you'd like to a person or organization as well as a quotation or expression, or your generous donation can be anonymous, the choice is yours. In either case, it would give you the satisfaction of knowing that you enabled at least one more episode to be produced for the benefit of the people in Myanmar who have suffered so much at the hands of the military. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CTM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity your project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's b e t t e r b urma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either the Insight Myanmar or better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support

1:53:49

sorry for my labor prime, as you know, was not easy to communicate. This situation is not good.

1:54:04

It was two weeks ago and now so many be well. I had pineapple. At the last night two or three phone wise they spoke in an inner city I mean, I'm okay. At least I was alive. At least I was alive I'm okay. I didn't know how long we had this situation. Every weekday I was thinking about my future is an hour long we have to wait To end this sometime I was lost my ambition sometimes it brought us every day we can have to live to be to sleep I have no idea this country so no I was I just go live on the morning alone but trying to stay strong if I can keep for us and just think about okay, I must stay alive. At least I was not dead am I not getting trying to motivate by my with that