Transcript: Episode #110: Journey Into Renunciation

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Ariya Baumann, which appeared on June 30, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Host  00:14

Many longtime listeners know that our podcast platform was initially focused on interviews about the spiritual paths that Myanmar offers to meditators and monastics, but when the CU hit, we couldn't in good conscience continue to tell those stories with many monastic sites on fire or occupied by soldiers and the Burmese people living under the military's Reign of Terror. So we expanded our mission to cover a wider range of post coup Myanmar stories. Still, some guests have a unique insight into the intersection of the spiritual with the worldly, allowing a deeper understanding of both these planes. Today's guests fit squarely into that category as you will soon hear CMP II calm pour me by sea a weighted average, hourly a good day. Really pleased to be joined on this episode of Inside Myanmar podcast with our guest Urja Bauman, who will take some time to talk about her background and spiritual journey in Myanmar. So, Maria, thank you so much for being here with us.

Ariya Baumann  02:16

And thank you for giving me this opportunity to share something about my life and my practice.

Host  02:23

Right. And I think there are some listeners out there who know about your your teaching and your practice, have maybe even gone to your retreats. But I think many myself included probably don't know exactly where you came from, and how you ended up to be where you were leading those retreats and practicing and Myanmar. So can you take us back to where it all began to your your early years and your first inklings of your spiritual quest?

Ariya Baumann  02:52

All right, yes. I was born in Switzerland, in a town called Vint Otto. I have two brothers, which are younger than me, growing up in a loving family. My parents were very kind. And they took us out into nature, going hiking in the mountains, skiing in winter time. And I went to school. So my upbringing was Protestant. My mother was Catholic, my father Protestant, and I got the regular religious education at school, and at the church. And it was in my teenage years, that I started to have these questions about God and the world. And being taught, you know, there is this God called loving everybody. But then I asked myself, How can this loving God allow so many children in Africa to starve and die from hunger? How can this loving God allow all these conflicts and wars going on in this world? And so with this, I started to read books about different other religions, about different philosophies. And what I also was thinking was that if such a thing like God, or a higher power, or absolute love, really does exist, then it must be something that every person should be able to experience for themselves. And not only some, some special people having an experience of God or this absolute power. And so when reading this books, on different religions, philosophies, I came across Buddhists The books, and there was presented a way or a practice by doing it and could experience and realize for them for oneself, you know, what really exists, what is real. And so this made me interested. And with the guidance instructions from the books, I started practice meditation for myself. And I also came across a little booklet, which had short texts from different religions, spiritual traditions. And one text was the taste of it was like, when you sit, just sit, when you eat, just eat, when you go, just go. So basically, you know, be present in each moment, know what you're doing. And with that, I went to the mountains in Switzerland, in a little hut. And for one week, I just tried to implement it, just eating when I was eating trance, doing the dishes, when I was doing the dishes, and so on. And it was only later that I realized that this was actually my first retreat. It was a sound free trade. And it was a very good experience. And that really confirmed that this was the way to go. So I write more books on what is Buddhism, what is meditation. And later on, you know, that was in the late 80s, in Switzerland. And, you know, Buddhist meditation was not really popular or available. But after I finished my studies, I was studying at the Conservatory in Zurich, to become a music and dance education teacher. I worked for a few years, but then I kind of thought, I need to see the world, I need to see what is going on out there. So I quit everything. And with my backpack, I started traveling. I started going west, from Switzerland, meaning first Ireland than the United States, from there, to Tahiti, New Zealand, New Caledonia, Australia, and from there to Asia. And I had heard that in Thailand, there was a monastery where Westerners could go and practice meditation. And so I found it. It was What's one more the monastery of our chant Buddha dasa, at that time, a very well known and famous monk and teacher. And so there I did my official first Buddhist meditation retreat, 10 days. And already after the first day, for me, this was, like coming home. I had found a home. And then the 10 days were finished. I didn't want to leave, it was just like, well, you know, this is the best thing you can do. But then I left button in Asia, in Nepal, and in India, I did more retreats, this are in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. And with each retreat, it was more like, yes, yes, this is a path that I want to follow, that I want to deepen. And after two years of traveling, I had no more money. So I went back to Switzerland. I worked for a couple of years, got more money, and then set out traveling again. And in these two years, you know, I was meditating, I had found a meditation group in Zurich. But, you know, my hunger for more meditation was very big. So I went to Asia again. Did some more retreats in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. I did also some tracking in the Indian Himalayas. And I met an Australian man, I fell in love. And so later on, I went to Australia to be with him. Nothing. And he was working. You know, during the week, I was at home at his home. And I was practicing meditation. You know, basically all day long. It was very nice. It was very good. On weekends, he sometimes invited friends. And we would go Bush hiking. And one of these friends saw the tanker that I had bought in Dharamsala. And he knew what the tanker was. So he asked, Are you meditating? Are you Buddhist? I said, Yes. And so I asked him, Well, do you know is there is a retreat going on soon here in Australia? And he said, as a matter of fact, yes. In about 10 days, a Burmese meditation teacher is coming to a teacher retreat. And he gave me the name of the managers. So I called and they said, Yes, there is a space free. And so I went to that retreat. And by that time, I was not really fixed on any particular Buddhist tradition, or any particular form of meditation. And so I thought, okay, dharma is meditation teacher. Let's see what he teaches. And this Burmese meditation teacher was saya dot o Jana calm. He spoke good English. And he taught in the Mahasi method. And I found it very strange to have instructions to slow down all actions and movements in the day to day activities, which is a particular instruction in DiMasi tradition. But you know, I was not aware of that at that time yet. Because I had done so many different retreats in different traditions in Thailand in the Tibetan tradition. I had also done a second retreat, and no, in no retreat, did I get these instructions of slowing down. So I found, well, this is maybe for beginners, but I am no beginner. I know how to meditate. And we had a private individual interview each day, we cited or Jana calm. And we had to report about our experiences in sitting meditation, in walking meditation, and in mindfulness in the daily activities. So of course, I had not much to report about my mindfulness in the daily activities. And each day, he would say, while trying to slow down more in your day to day activities, I said, with hands in Ansari, yes, I adore. But I left the room and thought no, no, no, no, that's not for me, you know, that's the beginning. And another particular thing must affect when saya or Chana Kok gave a Dharma talk, he talked very, very slowly, in know, like this. And then he was also repeating things that he had said, you know, for me, it was like having said something in green, and then the same thing in yellow, and the third time in red. So I remember, I must sitting there in this Dhamma talks, and thinking, Come on, come on, speak a bit faster. Because he just talked for one hour. And I thought if he was talking faster, he could say more, because what he was saying was good. And then when he was repeating, you know, going over the same thing again, I was, oh, no, no, I have, you know, I know I have understood, you know, go on go on, not necessary. And so this happened three, four days. And then the next day when I came to my interview with him, before I could even open my mouth. He just looked at me into my eyes. And he asked, Do you know why I talk so slowly? Can you imagine in that moment? I mean, all my jaw almost dropped. And I say God, how can he know and I saw, you know, I had made no call meant to him. And that was the moment I realized, while maybe this little set man knows a bit more than I think he knows. And, you know, then I had to give my report. And as usual, at the end, he said, please try to slow down more and more in your daily activities. And again, I said, Yes, I was hands in answering. But I left the room. And immediately right there, I started to slow down, walking around, slowly stretching my hand, slowly taking the cup very mindfully, slowly. And because, you know, I thought, well, this is, you know, only for beginners. But in that moment, I thought, well, at least I should try to see for myself, if it's beneficial, all the better. If it's not beneficial, if it's not helpful, well, at least I can say, I have tried it out myself. And so, you know, 10 within 24 hours. I mean, it was unbelievable. How beneficial that was, my meditation deepened. You know, very quickly, my concentration became much deeper, the mind became clearer. Mindfulness became so sharp and accurate. I mean, I could barely believe that this was possible, by the simple fact of slowing down, and being more present, more mindful. And then, you know, in the days that follows during that rotate, Sayadaw, of course, realized, you know, how my practice took off. And at the end of the retreat, he said, Well, would you like to come to my center in Burma, and meditate for a bit longer? I was in a meditative high, you know? And I said, Yes, I adore, I'll be coming. And so he gave me a sponsorship letter to apply for a meditation visa. That was back in 1992. It took six months to get that meditation visa. But then in September 92, I arrived in Burma. And I had heard that in Burma, it is possible to ordain on a temporary basis. You know, as I've said, I was a music and dance education teacher. So music, dancing, that was my life. And somehow I knew that as a Buddhist, nun, or monk, you know, you have to follow rules, to precepts, you know, which is also not singing, not dancing, not listening to music, or entertainment. And so that's why I never ever considered to become a nun. I could not imagine myself, you know, how to be happy in my life without dancing, without music without playing the piano. But when I had decided I would go to Burma and knowing that, you know, one has to follow the eight precepts, and singing and dancing was not possible. I thought, Oh, yes, you know, for three months, which I had decided I would do in Burma for three months, and I could put it aside and not sing not dance. And so on knowing that, you know, I could take up ropes for this three months, I saw why not, you know, to give myself fully to this prior to this, you know, to make also kind of an outdoor change. Manifesting my full commitment to this practice for these three months. And so with that, I ordain, of course, I adore Jana colors, very happy. And I took up this ordination. And so there I was practicing. And the three months went by so quickly. And it was so interesting to practice the meditation. And luckily, I, you know, had not, I had left erasing and Switzerland, I had nothing to go back to. So I told myself, maybe another three months, but then, you know, I'll finish my meditation and I'll be in light And, or at least halfway through to enlightenment. And so I continued, six months past, still not yet enlightened. But still, the practice was so interesting. I wanted to stay on. So I gave myself another few months, and another few months, one year, two year, three years. And after three years, when I took a break from meditation reflecting on my life, I realized that by that time, I had left without singing, dancing, playing the piano. And I was still alive, I didn't die yet. And what was surprising was to realize that I was actually happier. With my life, I was more satisfied, I was more at peace. And this transformation that had happened was amazing to me. Because if you had told me beforehand, I would stay there for three years, and not sing and dance, I would have laughed and say, no, no, no, no, that cannot be true. But then, to realize, while such a deep transformation of the mind can happen, Dan, it was clear that for the transformation, you know, uprooting all greed, hatred, delusion, it's possible thing to do, the mind can change the mind can be transformed. And because I was happier than before, so there was nothing that pulled me back to Switzerland. And so I simply stayed on in Burma at the center.

Host  22:01

And that's a really lovely story going over many years and went over the transformation and the journey of many years. And I think the the most immediate question I would have is, you describe in such compelling and dynamic terms, what it was like, being a nun in Burma for wanting to extend month after month, season after season, year after year, and how much you were getting out of the practice. So much so that even the things that you were you were giving up your relationships and family, career and music and dance, were all worth it to what you were gaining? I think for those listeners out there who maybe haven't had so much experience with meditation or have understood the what comes and along retreat? I think there could be some some, some curiosity or some questions what what, as far as you can describe, as far as words can carry you, which I know are imperfect vehicle, but as far as words can carry you, how would you describe the listeners out there who haven't had that intensive meditation practice, practice and experience? When you talked about how fulfilling it was? How interesting it was? Can you try to break that down, unpack that in some way to bring that experience to people who haven't actually had it themselves?

Ariya Baumann  23:25

Yes, I will try to do so. So, you know, basic approach in Vipassana meditation is to be mindful of whatever arises in this body in this mind, and to be present with you know, physical bodily sensations, or be present with an age or is pain or with some tension, or with heat, and so on. And, you know, already on this physical level to be present with these sensations was quite amazing because, you know, especially the painful sensations, you know, this is painful, it's unpleasant. And usually, we want to get rid of them as quickly as possible. You know, we change posture, we do this and that they put on warm clothes, when it's too cold, we take off clothes when it's getting hot and so on. Or, you know, when it's itchy, then we scratch to get relief from the edge. But, you know, in meditation, you're trying to be with that unpleasant, uncomfortable sensation. And to watch it, you know, you know, first it's maybe the arm is itching, you know the concept of the arm. But then As as I was just being wasted, he sensation you know, it was thought this solid block of itchiness, but it fell into little kind of pieces of itchy tiny little the sensations and then with deeper concentration they know it was like each of these little tiny each sensation was actually arising and passing away replaced by the next one arising and passing away. And going further into this you know, all of a sudden there was just this tiny little sensations which felt itchy, but there was no more arm you know, the concept of arm had gone, but these sensations were there, this is what was happening. So, I mean, you know, having grown up with this body and you know, having used it for moving around and also dancing and so on. So, this gave a completely new view on the body on this physicality or else, you know, VISTA he sensation as I said, usually one would scratch to get relief, but, you know, one can stay with the itchy sensation observe it see become more intense, and then you know, getting less intense and then actually observe it, how it goes away, how it dissolves, how it is not there anymore, completely gone. And you know, this is happening without itching without crashing at all. So, to see how these sensations come and go, arise and pass away. So, on this physical level to realize that this seemingly so solid body is not solid at all. It's just this flux of tiny little sensations arising and passing away in quick successions you know, maybe people understand you know, it's like pixels tiny little things that are in constant process and because this is happening, so fast, it seems so solid, so firm, but this is only on the surface. And so, this their meditation mindfulness and concentration and in looking carefully dislike a microscope or becoming like an electronic microscope to see more and more deeply into the true nature of this body of physical processes. On the level of the mind also, so many interesting discoveries experiences it took you know, to see salts coming and going emotions know arising, getting intense trance changing into something else, and I simply being present and observing them also seeing them how they dissolve and they're not completely gone. So, also to see that this thing called Mind is also something very flowy in constant process and to see there is no solid core you know, there is not this thing called mind it's not a substantial entity that is located somewhere. But it's this this process, we know that happens because of sensory impressions. What I see what I hear, and then this causes thoughts and mental images and emotions to arise.

Host  29:58

Right Thank you for that. That's As close as we can probably get to those that haven't had the experience themselves when reality and the mind can start to be observed in a more subtle nature and understanding and transformation starts to take shape, as you're going through this intensive process yourself extending longer and longer. In a country you'd never been in before and while wearing the robes of a nun, so having to follow this strict set of discipline now and rules, as fascinating. And as interesting as you found this process that you were undergoing in intensive silence in Myanmar, you were also having to give up a number of things and give up things by nature, geography and space that you weren't physically with things that were familiar, whether they were food or family or relationships or career opportunities, as well as having to give up things by virtue of the robes you were wearing, and the rules you now had to follow as a result. So as as much fulfillment as you were getting from the actual practice, how this was really one of your first opportunities, I suppose that some form of greater overall renunciation. So at this time, as you were you were experiencing this reconciliation, no matter how much you were getting in return, how are you dealing with? Letting go of those things? Was it was it hard? Was it? Was it a natural process? was? Was it did it? Did it just flow organically? Well, overall with the process? Or were there some fits and starts? What What was it like having to, as months went into yours to work and renouncing some of these things that is familiar human activities that that you had grown up with, as you are now engaged in this practice?

Ariya Baumann  32:02

Yes, as you say, you know, some of the things that are just a natural outcome of the practice, that I didn't have to give up things, but they just naturally fell away. Like the singing and the dancing and playing music. Other things, you know, to keep up, my friends and family in Switzerland not being close to them. That was not so hard. I kept some contact with some friends and family via letters. At the time, there was no internet yet. So writing real letters, which took about two weeks to get to Switzerland or from Switzerland to Burma. Sometimes they got lost on the way. So that was a little bit hard. Okay, for my, in all the food that I was used to from Switzerland, that was also not so difficult, because the food we got at the center in Burma was actually very nice. The only thing that was a bit that I had to get used to was that it was rice for every lunch. You know, every meal. Every lunch was just rice and vegetables. You know, we could choose vegetarian food or non vegetarian food. And it was interesting that most of the foreign meditators at the center, they were actually terian and most of the Burmese meditators, they were non vegetarian. So the Burmese kitchen is not really like a vegetarian kitchen, not like in India, but you know, we got good vegetarian food as I've said, you know, when I was younger with the family, and later on with friends, I went hiking in Switzerland, the mountains, or skiing in winter time. So these outdoor things I missed in Burma. I did. I could not even leave the center without asking for permission to go outside. So that was a bit strange, you know, so emancipated western woman to ask for permission to go out. That was a bit special. But you know, I just put up with that, not being able to go for hikes to go outside in nature. It was only later on, you know, after 10 years in Burma, when I started teaching going, you know, either to Europe or to Australia to teach retreats, then I would take the opportunity to go hiking a bit with my friends. And that was a very nice change or opportunity to do so. Which I really appreciate it. And as the years went by, you know, whenever I went to the west to teach retreats, I would also always take some time for hiking to go out in nature, which for me, was just another form of meditating or being mindful. And, you know, hiking, walking, and, you know, hiking in the mountains going up hill, freezing, you know, and being aware of your breasts as you're panting, you know, up. So, you know, for me, that was always just kind of, to do apply walking meditation out in nature. And I thought, well, and well, it is, it's also good for your house. No, that was something I was very lucky. In all my years in Burma, I, I didn't get sick many times, in other people, Westerners in Burma, they had much more problem, you know, digestive problems, or other problems. But my health was quite robust. I stayed quite healthy, throughout all these years in Burma. But I think, you know, after the first 10 years, when I took the opportunity to engage in some physical exercise, when I was in the West, that also helped to keep my health strong. One aspect where I really had to let go, was Thoreau was, you know, my lay clothes, or having to put on the ropes. And in Burma, the nuns, they were pink, you know, the blouse, the upper robes are pink, and the loungey or sarin, orange. And these two colors, pink and orange, first of all, I thought, they do not really match, they do not go well together. And these are the two only colors I was never wearing in my life as a lay person. You know, so I had to wear these colors I really didn't like, but, you know, that was a very good thing to, to notice how much I had identified with my clothes, you know, of who I was, with my clothes, the style of clothes, the colors of the clothes I was wearing. And so to let go of this aspect of identification, that was a very, very good lesson, you know, to let go of my hair, to shave my head, that was less dramatic, that was less kind of giving. Actually, quite soon, I started to enjoy to shave my head every week, it was very practical, you know, you don't have to worry about your hair and you have to don't have to wash it. And then it comes out of form, whatever. So that aspect, I thought, Oh, that's really helpful. That's, that's easy to do. So as you see, so, you know, most of the things kind of naturally happened. It was a natural process of just shedding things that were no longer really important in my life. And a few things, you know, that I had to let go of and just adjust to it.

Host  39:48

Right, right. This was such a big transformation in your life. Let's move to Burma on what it became. And so I think it's worth looking at from these different perspectives and memories. And we've been talking a bit about you as the subject and about your your, inside your mind and your practice and your habits. I want to broaden the focus and look at the context in which you were in your interaction with Burmese people with Burmese Buddhist culture with the with a Burmese Buddhist monastery and teacher that you were interacting with. I know that since this fateful trip, you've had three plus decades of deep meditative and Buddhist interaction with all aspects of society and monkhood and everything else. So it might be difficult to remember those initial impressions. I just had so many memories that have felt since. But as far as it's possible, I wonder if you can recall any scenes or imagery or feelings or encounters or anecdotes that from that initial time when you were there when you were entering in what was at that time more of a foreign culture, trying to to understand it, and to be influenced by it and to develop friendships and relationships and as your practice was blossoming? What do you remember now, when you look back and think about the first few months or even years of your experience living in Myanmar interacting with Burmese society?

Ariya Baumann  41:23

What struck me kind of first was the fact that in meditation center, the monastery where I was practicing, and you know, with me, there were many other, you know, Burmese people, West Adonis practicing, and, you know, the hierarchy that existed, like the Burmese people, meditators, when they were listening to a Dhamma talk, or when there was a celebration going on, where we foreigners also participated. In front, there were the monks then behind came to men, and then the nuns, and then the women. And so when I saw that, you know, my mind was rebellious and thinking, you know, how come that even lay men sit in front of the nuns, you know, this is not fair, this is not just, I mean, how, how, how can they do that? And this is something that bugged me quite a bit and in my medication, so, you know, I thought, this needs to be changed, you know, I mean, nuns behind the men, you know, putting the men higher than plants, you know. And that's hard, you know, how to do how to do and you know, in my, when I took little breaks of, by intensive meditation, I went to the kitchen to help prepare the food or dessert. And so I started to pick up Burmese that's how I started the Burmese language. And with that, you know, I got a little bit more more insight into Burmese society Burmese culture. And later on when side or Charla car sent me to the newly established forest center, in Moby about 30 kilometers north of Yangon. He sent me there to be the translator for foreign meditators because the site or their teacher did not speak English. And in the meantime, I had made contact with a Burmese woman, she was also a meditator at the center, her name is Mimi, and she had also invited me to her home to her family. And so, with that, I got more insight into Burmese culture society. And so, then, I kind of realized that, you know, I had this thought, well now, you know, coming out of intensive meditation, I have to change Burmese society, you know, put women at their place, you know, but then I realized how, you know, can I, as one single western woman, change a Burmese society that has grown in to this way for centuries, you know, this needs a bit longer to, you know, transform society, but then being in the position and of being the translator for the foreign meditators at the forest center, I was also the manager for these foreigners taking care of them and giving little instructions and things like that. And so I had to arrange the interview list for the foreign meditators there. And so there I used my position. And for the interview, you know, that was the same for the Burmese Yogi's, when there is interview for us, the monks, then the men, then the nuns, and then the women. And so for the foreigners, I put the nuns for us, and then the women, and then the lay men, and then the monks. So, there I had some influence, I could do something. So at least, you know, I did a tiny little thing, you know, but no, I just did it and the side or their side or in the cup, he never made the comment or asked why might on the monks come first. He just accepted. So, no, this was, yeah, something that in Burmese society that I really noticed, and that I didn't, didn't find just or right. Another thing that struck me was the kindness and the openness of the Burmese people. And also the fact that Burmese people understand the importance of the Dharma practice, in all, they really see it as the best thing you can do with your life. You know, in the West, and especially, like in the 1980s, when I started to practice meditation for myself, or even a bit later, you know, if you would mention your practicing meditation, people will look a bit strange at you and think, Well, you know, what is wrong with your life. But in Burma, in order is just this, this knowledge and this understanding, yeah, that the practice of the Dharma, that's the best thing you can do with your life. And in a very helpful way. This happened, when my parents came to visit me to Burma. After two years of staying in Burma, I had invited them to come and visit me. And they were very happy. Because, you know, they didn't speak English, and they would have never have traveled to Asia on their own. But with me being there, they came, we hire the car with a driver and drove around to see, you know, the pagodas and monasteries, and me being a nun. And you know, I'm quite tall, taller than most of Burmese people having fast skin. So whenever we went to visit the pagoda, or a monastery, the Burmese people, you know, they would spot me come up to me with hands in Anjali saying, Ah, CLA how good you are and learn how, how lovely. We are to use stay. And I told them, I said, Oh, Jana, can we know him more? We have also practiced this before or, you know, this is really the best thing you can do with your life. And then I said, You know what, this is my mother and this is my father. And then they turned to my mother, my father still is handsome Ansari and saying all your parents, you are the luckiest parents in the world because your daughter is a nun. She is doing the best thing. And, you know, my parents never quite kind of accepting and open to what I was doing. I was always doing a bit unusual things, you know, even before going to Burma. And but, you know, becoming a nun and shaved head was a bit strange, but then the other things I had done, but so for one month, being in Burma, almost every day, they heard the same comment. And with this, they came to see and understand that what I was doing was not some weird, outrageous thing. And they saw, you know, I was not kind of trapped in a sect, but they really understood that what I was doing was something that people would respect a lot. That was something good I was doing. And so this really helped my parents, in order to, to see and more deeply understand that I was doing something very good with my life. And actually, later on when I started teaching in Switzerland when I arrived in Switzerland, and you know, my a friend of mine, or I told my mother in law at the newly opened meditation center, in beatin back, I will teach a weekend. So when I got to Switzerland, and I would stay with my parents to get over the jetlag, then my mother said, and you know, what, I am dead, we have registered for your retreat was the most beautiful thing that could have happened, you know, I never kind of urge them to practice meditation or whatever. But it was their decision to come and attend this retreat. So, you know, the fact that in Burma, the practice of meditation is really respected and, you know, understood as something very precious. This makes Burma so special, you know, practicing in the West, it's okay. But to practice in that field, you know, the Burmese Dhamma Verter is so much understanding about the value of it makes it so special to practice in Burma. I find and many people who have come to Burma have felt the same.

Host  52:14

Oh, that's, that's wonderful. I want to go back to what you said a bit earlier, your initial impression, just that discomfort with a female role of monasteries, whether nun or lay meditator in terms of the seating and other such arrangements. And you were giving your perspective as a, as you described yourself and emancipated Western women woman that was that that found this all quite shocking. And it's something you had to sort out in your own your own comfort and lifestyle. Right after that, you mentioned how you through your friend Mimi and through other developing relationships, you got to to be more close and intimate with a number of Burmese people and families and learn more deeply about how they saw things, how they integrate it, their way of looking at the world. As you develop these friendships, did you also talk to them about some of your concerns or discomfort with the role of lay willing meditators are nuns in monasteries, and I'm wondering what as you develop these friendships, they likely would have confided in you or shared their own feelings or perspectives in ways that maybe they wouldn't be so outspoken and greater bringing society so as you started to make these deeper friendships and understand the Burmese perspective on on these gender roles and issues, especially as it pertains to monastery life, what did you find their views were did they share your concern or just comfort? Or were they looking at it another way?

Ariya Baumann  53:52

That was a bit saddening to me, you know, when I started kind of to talk to some of the people about these issues, I noticed that for them, this was just the way it was enough for them, it was not something that needed ready to be changed, or somehow they just, you know, resigned into their position into their role. It was only you know, as this friendship with me developed, that she gradually started to realize, you know, that this role that women or nuns have to take in Burma that this Yes, was was just very Burmese are very cultural, you know, with me, me and also being able to travel beside or in the car and coming to the west and really experience how it is in the West. So she started To change her perspective, and she started to kind of take her place, you know, being strong, and, you know, not being shy, only because she's a woman, you know. So that that made me happy and know that at least with her, I could kind of strengthen that awareness a bit. What I also noticed and what also saddened me a bit was that in ISIS said, I was becoming the translator in the forest center, and then starting to teach. And in Burmese meditation centers, you know, basically, it's the monks that teach. And so, then me gradually growing into a teaching position, you know, that was quite unusual, you know, as a nun, as a female being. And, but in a way, you know, I thought, at least you know, this can happen, although it was me a foreigner, maybe that facilitated the whole thing, you know, I don't know how easy it would have been for a Burmese nun. You know, it's the same kind of experience and capability to grow into such a position. Of course, you know, in the nuns monasteries that are nuns that teach, you know, and teach meditation, teach the Dharma, and so on. But in a mixed place, there, it's very rare that, you know, Burmese nuns, teach side by side wisdom, Burmese monks, but, you know, outside or in the car to horse centered, and I moved in 2006. He is a quiet open, man. And the fact that, you know, since 2015, we teach a special metta meditation retreat in Burma. And it's tired or in the car, my American friend, nun, I have Iran Yanni and myself as a lay woman. So you know, that Sayadaw allows the 12 Us women nun, to teach along with him, is quite unusual. You know, maybe Sayadaw Hola, Cana Chasma Sayadaw has done the same thing with Carol Wilson, or Michelle McDonald, teaching together with him. So, you know, it's possible, but still, I would say the exception. So I would like to know to see more nuns, especially, you know, Burmese nuns, or even lay women to be in the position of being teachers, especially meditation teachers.

Host  58:30

Right. And the course you reference we should add is one of the most sought out retreats of the year and Myanmar, at least before the coup before the pandemic, it was a retreat that sometimes would fill up within 24 hours of it being announced and having, having having a signup sheet or registration sheet that people would indicate their preference and wanting to go to. So it's definitely something that was highly appreciated. I also want to come back to when you were there in the early 90s. And we're talking about the role of women of Lee lay female meditators, of nuns of meditation teachers, within that more conservative Burmese Buddhist society and how you were reacting and responding. Of course, this this feature of Burmese society, the time is, one is but one of many unfortunate features of a period where you were living for decades and this was not a free country, this was not a free society. This was a place where within the monastery walls you were practicing trying to reach a spiritual liberation and outside the monastery walls, there was very little mundane liberation, if you will, to speak up there was very little political freedom or, or human rights at that time, that that existed while within This was the highest spiritual aim. And again, being a a progressive Westerner with certain values coming in and dedicating yourself to this practice, seeing the challenges that the women were facing, but then seeing the wider societal challenges and bringing in your own your own thoughts, your own values, and then whatever form of engaged Buddhist practice you would go to take on however, you would define that for yourself. In those early years before the transition of 2000 10s. What challenges did you have? What care did you have to take what was the balancing act required to try to stay there for the Dharma to try to learn and teach spiritual teachings and yet acknowledging and aware of these far greater societal problems that these teachings were were so to speak housed in?

Ariya Baumann  1:01:02

This was another aspect that really made my heart sad, because, you know, coming from Switzerland, free country, democratic country. So coming to Burma, on the military dictatorship. You know, the first three years, I spent most of the time in our intensive meditation practice with little breaks in between. But then, you know, being in charge of foreign meditators. talking more to people, and especially my friend me, me. So I noticed, you know, the, basically, in the monastery Meditation Center, nobody spoke about politics. So one day, I asked me, well, actually, what do you think about, you know, the military, or who governs the country. And she just put her finger in front of her mouth and said, she cannot talk about this, even in the monasteries, meditation centers, that are spies. So we have to be very careful. And that was it. You know, and so, you know, not to put Burmese people into danger, or in a difficult situation. I simply did not ask any further, you know, I didn't want to put them into danger. But one amusing episode was in the forest center in Moby at one time, an American woman came to the center, and she said that she wanted to practice meditation for five days. And she had said that she was a journalist, and that she had kind of the permission from the Burmese government, the military, to travel around in Burma. So, you know, we settled her in a thorough instructions. And so she meditated to say it off. Then told us later, that on the same day, two Burmese men came also to the center in order to meditate. But somehow the Sayadaw knew that these two Burmese meditators were spies. So they had to come and observe this American journalist. And so they had to follow follow the schedule, get up at 330 and meditate all day long, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, and so on. And apparently, in one of the interviews, one of the Burmese men and said on the in the sitting meditation, you know, there is so much pain, you know, the back hurts and the knee hurts and so difficult and apparently desired or he just made a comment, something like Oh, wow, you know, it's easier to observe others than to observe what is going on in your body and mind. Then, you know, and American journalist left, of course, these two men also left on the same day. But you know, that It made me even more aware. Yes, I, we, I borrow my friend, we have to be careful of what we say. Because there are eyes and ears everywhere. And so being in Burma you know, at that time no internet yet so, I did not really know what was happening on the political level, you know, it was when I went to the west, you know that people will tell me, you know this and this is happening in Burma.

Host  1:05:51

Right, I see, I want to jump ahead a little for a moment, I do want to go back and look at the the spiritual journey that you described starting, just want to telegraph for the audience, the two different planes we're trying to work with we and they do crossover and you have to have their own paths and trajectories, we have your own spiritual journey and experience growing from being a meditator to a nun to a teacher. And yet this is also happening in simultaneous as the the political reality and the nature of society and government is changing over the course of years and decades, while you're living there. And while we're on this topic, I want to jump ahead to the transition period. And as you would spend it so long, that was 20 years, or perhaps about 20 years exactly. in the country, before the transition happened, you really had a front row seat to what it was like trying to practice Dharma to teach Dharma to be on the spiritual path, as so much in society was unsafe and unstable. And then in the 2000 10s, we saw an opening a partial democracy and attempt to fits and starts of trying to create greater democracy and stability that hadn't been there before. I'm just wondering, from your perspective, as you were around during that time, how did and I know that your perspective is not one of political or society or worldly life, but certainly, the life of the world does bleed over, beyond the walls into the walls, and into the monasteries and nunneries and meditation centers. And so as you you continued with your practice and your teaching, and yet society around started to change, did that impact what you were able to do within the monastery and the courses did that change in society resulted in any change within the monastery walls as well, from your perspective, experience?

Ariya Baumann  1:07:56

This opening, this change that happened politically in Burma or Myanmar did bring more how would I How should I say, you know, the Burmese people that came to the monastery, to the meditation center, either, you know, to practice meditation, or dough, Norris offering a meal, making other offerings for the center, that changed quite a bit, you know, various before, people who are dressed very traditionally, the men in lounge and shirt, the women in their lounges and the ages that are blouses you know, just that, but that was the opening. You know, young people started to come, come for a meal, Donna, in jeans and kind of western style clothes, even dresses. And the hair changed, you know, young people started to to dye their hair, you know, the black hair was dyed, blonde or white or kind of Hannah Brown, whatever. You know, handbags. Were kind of western style handbags, sunglasses, Western style sunglasses. And later on, you know, they were bringing in their mobile phones. So that was quite a change, quite a difference. But what I found quite heartening was to see you know, even these young people dressed in more or less western style, but still they were so respectful, you know, of the nuns of the monks doing their vows, helping being very kind being very polite. So that was, that was kind of nice to see, you know how to form change, but kind of the values, they stayed in regard to, you know, the practice in the center, I mean, that stayed more or less the same, you know, the practice of meditation is just the practice of meditation, you get up at 330, and meditate all day long until 930 At night you know, like wisdom, opening up of the country, you know, also getting more wisdom materials, things. So, in other words, some luxury things like having warm water, or hot water hot shower, before, you know, it was just the cold water all the time, or to have fans later on to have air conditioning, in some of the rooms or meditation halls, which were not there before. More kind of Western, like food was available in Burma, and so donors who could afford it, you know, they would bring bonds, or kind of hamburger, hamburger, like sings, or Western kind of cakes. That was, you know, for Burmese people, that was a big thing. For me. You know, that was nothing special. And, you know, the Burmese version of Western cakes was, at the beginning, not really good. Gradually, you know, with the years, they caught up. And, you know, they did quite a good job in regards to kind of Western food, available in Burma, but, you know, I like Asian food and salt and the Burmese food. So, I was happy with that.

Host  1:12:20

Right, I know, for me, during that time, as I lived there, I encountered, I was surprised by how much the opening society had a kind of proportional opening in the Dharma world as well. Personally speaking, being a being able to take pilgrimages with groups of Westerners, you know, 2025 meditators go into a remote monastery to pay respects and meditate. That could happen that didn't arouse suspicion, it one was doing what one says, once said, was doing, going, going to meditate and to learn about monastic practice in a remote place. And there was no suspicion otherwise, during that time. i During those years, I spent several of those years writing and researching that kind of meditators Guide To Helping practitioners come in knowing where to go and what the different traditions were. And just simply being able to undertake that research, is something that I never would have attempted before. Because research of any kind, is going to be suspicious that that research is going to pour into another secret, underlying thing that one is trying to report on whether that's true or not. So just the opportunity to freely be able to go to places and ask questions and learn about the different traditions and histories of places and then tell foreign meditators and practitioners about this, so they could also appreciate and, and visit and pay respects to those places. That was something that, for me never could have happened. The process of researching and publishing and bringing pilgrimages to certain sites just simply couldn't have happened before. And, and then also just being the experience of being able to go to more remote places and not be suspected as something to go to those remote places truly, as a practitioner or monastic that those for me and some of my other meditator friends at the time those those opportunities opened up. I was particularly struck. These are my experiences, I should say, but I was particularly struck by talking to one monastic teacher who referenced in his experience, this monk referenced actually seeing the change in the Buddhist teachings, teachings and lessons he was giving and the students that were coming that he actually saw a growth of critical thought and those being able to talk and debate openly about their understanding of Buddhist concepts, nothing about politics or anything else, but simply that they felt a greater read them and other aspects of life they also felt freer in being able to intellectually explore Buddha's teachings and, and to, to discuss them in more depth than he had seen before the transition where he saw it characterized more by rote memorization and not questioning the authority and just doing doing what was told over and over again, rather than exploring it with with their own critical mindset. And so just the opening of the society outside the walls, he saw within the walls people were carrying, that's the similar kind of mind of investigation. So I was, and also that now that I'm thinking about it, more examples are coming to mind, I recall, a, a Burmese Buddhist podcast guest I had on here, who explained that before the transition, when many monasteries were, were, were not well taken care of, they were not well maintained, they didn't get adequate food or maintenance or anything, but it was impossible to be able to, to, to, to ask for donations, or explain what the donations were for, because it would be seen as shameful that a Burmese Buddhist society led by these dictators, these military dictators, that there were so many monasteries that were in, in these, these needy states. And so rather than try to fix the problem, or create a more equitable society, or even try to raise donations, the problem was simply solved by not talking about it and pretending it wasn't there. And he relayed, how after the transition, there was so many monasteries in his region that he saw that we're now able to get more Donna more donations simply because they were able to be honest with describing what the needs and the problems were that that just simply couldn't be talked about before because it would be shameful for those that were supposed leaders. So I yeah, I really was amazed in my experience, and then in talking to others, how much during this period, the, the so called spiritual realm was affected by the changes that were taking place politically as well.

Ariya Baumann  1:17:13

Yes, you know, what you say that, you know, especially the younger people, they start to be more critical, and they start to think more for themselves. Because, you know, the education system in Burma for hundreds of years, was just learning by rote, you know, whether it's learning the Dharma, or whether it's learning at school, I noticed that with my Burmese friend, Mimi, you know, she had studied University. And she had learned English. But when she met me, she was basically almost not able to talk in English, because all she had memorized was birth and standard sentences. And if my sentence was some slightly different, did all that, that didn't work, so she didn't know what to answer. And so yes, as you say, you know, wisdom opening. And with, you know, people having more opportunity to for information, you know, with the internet, and knowing what is happening outside of Burma, you know, out in the world. And, yes, this has definitely brought a change.

Host  1:18:47

Right, so I want to get back to your own track your spiritual journey, we left off when you had come from Australia to spend what you thought was a few months, and then a temporary ordination. And then a few more months, and then a few more years. And through the story, you jumped ahead a little bit talking about, you're starting to take on teaching duties and changing monasteries, but we, we didn't get more of the granular there. So if we go back and just look at that time, when you you come to Burma, you're learning under Chemi, a data set. And you're staying a little longer, a little longer. And then I guess at some point, you realize that it's not just extending it by months or years, but it's actually somewhat of a a firm direction in life a a course direction, and of course change or shift from where you thought you were going. And, and I imagine there might have been a reader commitment or, or dedication to that development. So when that started to happen, can you take us back there? When did you realize that this was not an expense? means you were simply extending, but it was actually a new way of life now and then how did you start to adapt and become familiar with that, that new life or role that you were taking on?

Ariya Baumann  1:20:13

Yes, as I said, After three years of intensive practice, when I realized that, you know, having given up or not having been able to sing and dance, but then realizing that I'm not missing it anymore, and that I was actually happier than before. So that was kind of a turning point. And as I said, I just stayed on environment. Getting more into a teaching position. And it was in 2000, or 1999, that I got the first that I was asked to teach a retreat in Australia. And, you know, I was never kind of hoping or thinking I want to make a career with teaching meditation. But then this invitation came. And I thought to myself, well, if they think they know, they want me to come and teach, why not. And so I had to go via saya or Jonatha, Tamia Sayadaw. I told him, and kind of, you know, I didn't know how to put it, if I had to ask him well sired? Or do you think I'm able to teach or really give me permission to teach or whatever. So I just put forth the fact that I was invited to teach. And without hesitating, he just said, Yes, you go and teach this retreat. And that was kind of, you know, the permission, or, also the confirmation, yes, you're able to do that, or whatever. And so I then went and was teaching that retreat, and back to Burma. And then somehow, word spread, and other centers invited me to come and teach. And so it was there, that I noticed how now my life is taking this direction. And we know that was fine with me. And, you know, I enjoy teaching. For me, being in a teacher position, was also continuing my practice, you know, just in a different form, a different aspect. But I took that, you know, as the further deepening of my practice, and, you know, more and more time going on, more and more invitations came. And so, with the years, I started to travel more and more leaving Burma and spending less time in Burma each year, which, as I said, you know, was fine. This had become my life, I was happy with that. And so, you notice, what I'm still doing now, you know, still sharing, teaching the Dharma, practicing it myself. And I could not imagine doing something better or more beneficial in my life.

Host  1:23:54

That's wonderful. I'm also looking at the particular meditation that you do and you referenced how you from a young age you read some Buddhist books initially and the motivation that had and did some Tibetan did some some Thai Buddhist practice that some some Zen even and settled on Burmese practice on Mahasi base practice first and chimp ATAR and then moving to champion you, but all somewhat within this Mahasi lineage and teaching style. So of the multitudes of Buddhist practice that you experimented with and practiced in an earlier age. Why did you settle on this type of method and technique? What about this, drew you to want to dedicate your life to this style of practice?

Ariya Baumann  1:24:46

I think what attracted me so much with this particular method of practice, you know, it's the very simplicity of the practice of Not needing to have much knowledge about the Buddha's teaching or Buddhist philosophy. Just needing a Skillful Teacher, guiding you, in the practice, that this was enough, you know, so simple, but so, so transformative, so profound, being able to go very deep with this just very simple approach of being present with whatever is happening in the body. And mind. As I said, you know, I had done quite a number of retreats in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. And usually, these retreats in autos, lots of teaching, lots of lectures, you know, they talk about the Noble Eightfold Path, they talk about impermanence, they talk about karma, they talk about the precious ness of this human life, and so on. And I must say, actually, I had found this quite helpful, because it gave me some idea of, you know, the body of Buddha's teaching and of the cosmology, in Buddhism. You know, and then they also talked about emptiness, and so on. But after, you know, some retreats after some years of doing retreats in the tradition, again, it was like, well, intellectually, I know about emptiness shunyata, or I know about impermanence. But, you know, the intellectual knowledge is not enough, that doesn't really lead, lead Cadiz, deeper understanding, it doesn't really lead to a deeper transformation. And so it was around that time and all that I was thinking, Well, you know, what else would there be in terms of meditation practice, you know, that would enable me to make these experiences of you call it emptiness or not self, and so on myself. And this was the time I met saya otological. And that brought me to Burma. So it was like, yeah, when, when I was open to something else, you know, the message that suited me most appeared at that time. And that's then how I learned I ended up in Burma.

Host  1:27:55

You said something a bit ago that I find quite significant. And I wanted to, to, I didn't want to stop you in the flow of what you were saying. But I just jotted it down and wanted to come back to it. I think this is a good place to bring it back up, you had referenced how the practice in Burma is different from the practice anywhere else, or particularly in the West. And this is interesting, because on one hand, in some ways, maybe superficially, it contradicts something you said about the transition period, how the practice is the practice, whatever, whatever is going on outside, you're still following a basic schedule and timetable instead of constructions. Going deeper, I think, there there does differences and understanding does come out. But I wanted to follow up with that statement. And to learn in some more detail background, you've spent so much of your life living in the West and living in Myanmar and practicing in both places. And when you talk about what one is able to gain or what you specifically can gain or students that you've worked with, by actually making that and this is of course, pre pandemic pre coup, making that that decision to spend the money and traveled halfway across the world and be in a different place to do essentially the same practice. But yet there's something in in that environment where the the deeper understanding or practice of it become more profound. And why why do you think that is? What What about practicing and living in Myanmar has given you more and you've seen students gain more than doing that same practice in a Western country?

Ariya Baumann  1:29:45

Yes, this is something you could say there is something in the air that that is different in Burma than it is in a Western country when your practice as I had already pointed out, out, you know, it's this general understanding that the practice of the Dharma is the most valuable thing you can do with your life, you know, that's most beneficial. And, you know, to see the people who come, for example, to offer a foot Donna, in the center, you know, they bring the whole family, their family clan, their friends, you know, they stand at the entrance of the dining hall. And with Hanson and Ansari, they, you know, much the meditator is going to the dining hall, you know, they would walk around in the dining hall, and, you know, pour tea into your cup, or do this, or when they see that the ball, you know, his wedges is almost empty, they come and refill it, in all these little things, that kind of just are signs of their respect for what you're doing, you know, you as a meditator, even as a lay meditator in Burma, you know, Burmese people show you so much respect and admiration for doing this, and especially the Westerners, you know, people know, and understand, you know, that the Westerners come from far away, spend lots of money for traveling there. And then, you know, they have to put up with the heat and the mosquitoes and the food, they are not used to enter cold water, and so on. But still, you know, the western US come and do the practice. And so they say, you know, in terms of material things, in Burma, we cannot offer you the foreigners much, but we can offer you these facilities, that you can practice the Dharma. And for this, many Burmese people seem to be proud of that, you know, this is something they can give, they can offer, you know, offer also to the world. And so with this understanding, you know, for most of the Burmese people, when you're there in Burma, and you're practicing your notice this, you know, this respect, this admiration, and the value of that people put into this practice. And somehow, this is so encouraging, this is really uplifting. And for me, it has really helped me in times when I was struggling for, you know, dealing with difficult emotional states, or having to deal with lots of physical pain, you know, then I would just be so grateful for the Burmese people, you know, to support the centers with food, and, you know, it's order donation so that the center can continue to exist, so that I can be there and practice. So, as I said, other people, other Westerners who have come to practice, somehow they have made the same experience, they also feel that support and, you know, the value that people place in the practice of the Dharma.

Host  1:33:53

Right. Right. And I think that is that's a beautiful characterization that you just provided. I think it's also a very poignant one for us to have in our minds today. Because, of course, in the current situation for we we don't know, until when, with Fallout to the coup, that this is Myanmar is no longer in place for the time being that foreigners can really very easily go and benefit spiritually from these priceless teachings that have been given for so many years, so unconditionally generously. And I think that this puts into perspective, the loss that comes with that, yes, one can practice outside and this is where where one practices and grow spiritually is not dependent or conditional on the actual place. And yet, there are these kinds of underlying lessons and insights and value that being within that society provides that are harder to come by. I think this puts into relief that sense of loss. Of course, this sense of loss is nothing barely worth mentionable compared to people, Burmese that are are living under these conditions and are just trying to have basic survival and human rights. But in a conversation about foreign meditators and practitioners and aspiring monastics, this, this is another casualty, and this is another fallout. And in looking at the present day and where we're at, I wonder what your thoughts are about the current possibility or how you would define engage Buddhism engage practice, I'm sure that many of your students have asked you about what's going on and how they can help and how they can be involved. And over the course of the year, plus, you've had some time to reflect on some of those answers and some of those difficult conversations. I also know there's a couple of extremes that foreign practitioners can fall under one being a spiritual bypass of simply not caring or being engaged and looking at the outside world as whatever happens in terms of leadership or conflict as as being apart and irrelevant to the actual practice. And there's another extreme of people perhaps being too involved and emotionally overwhelmed. And losing their practice for just the trauma that that one experiences by, by, by bearing witness or being involved with what's going on right now. So I'm wondering, from your standpoint, as a very experienced meditator and as a teacher now and as someone who's lived in that country, in society, so long, what how have those conversations gone? What What have you advised, what have you talked about what how have you come to see what type of engaged Buddhism is relevant or meaningful right now, in this situation,

Ariya Baumann  1:37:14

this is a very important aspect, as you say, you know, engaged Buddhism, but I think this term engaged Buddhism can be looked at from different angles. So, you know, generally I think engaged Buddhism is understood in a sense of, you know, getting some organization or you know, supporting a monastery supporting a school, whatever, or you know, it can be also like in the, in the West, supporting homeless people, whatever. So, usually, you know, why an organization or an association, doing something good, helping people, which is good and necessary, but then I also see engaged Buddhism, on another level, which is, you know, on a more individual level, which means, that, you know, each person who is practicing, hopefully, you know, the practice does something, transforms something in that person, you know, the person becomes kinder, more compassionate, sees things more clearly, more patients more forgiving, reacting less angry, reacting less greedy. And so, you know, then each person on a very small scale, can be an engaged body's in really putting into practice, what insights or wisdom has arisen the sort of practice or, you know, seeing more clearly the interdependence of human beings of living beings or, you know, natural resources available in this world. So, to be engaged by manifesting these qualities that has been developed in meditation, and as I said, you know, in small ways, you know, engage in unsteady life, so to be forgiving and not get angry and upset if somebody jumps to cue in the supermarket, or be kind and let another person that takes the parking lot or, you know, help an elderly woman crossing the street. So in this small ways, you know, be engaged, and put the teachings and your insights into practice with engagement, you know, on a more outgoing level, right on level, especially now having lived so many years in Burma, of course, now with the military coup, my heart is bleeding, you know, and I'm so sad about what is happening in Myanmar right now. But, you know, over the years, we have been able to help and support various people, many nuns, but also lay people in Burma that we know. And this came about well, or in our throat practice in Burma, having received so much from the Burmese people all their support, and you know, they support the meditation center, so that we foreigners can practice there. So, naturally, there are always in me and in others, the wish to give something back to the Burmese people. And this manifested in a first kind of bigger way, when cyclone narc is swept over Myanmar in 2008 You know, killing so many people devastating villages and creating so much suffering and the Burmese government, you know, basically doing nothing. And at that time, you know, I got contacted by so many people, you know, how can we help and the, you know, an organization that is reliable, you know, the toxic people environment. And, you know, that was difficult. But anyhow, I was able, you know, to collect money, I was actually teaching a three month retreat in Australia. And after the three months, end of June, you know, I got so much money. And at that time, you know, it was difficult to send to Burma. So I spontaneously booked the flight and went to Burma to bring all the money. And with the help of the Sayadaw. And the monks, we distributed it, you know, help people rebuild their houses and the nuns supporting them with food, and so on, and medical help and so on. And so, this was basically the beginning of our little project that we call meta inaction. So you're not to put meta the good heart into action, and to help where help is needed. And so, as the years we have established, you know, connections to many nunneries that we support and set up medical clinic and so on. And so, in this way, you know, we are engaged in, in giving back something to the Burmese people. And we have this personal context. So we know, each person we offer the support to and this is something in our that is that is nice to do for us. We are a group of six people doing this. But also, you know, that we are able to tell the people who offer them money to our little Association, that each cent really goes to the people in Burma because, you know, we don't take any money for traveling expenses or whatever, but that we are so happy to be conduct, you know, just to bring this down on this offerings, that Burmese people. So I think in respect, you know, to engage Buddhism, it needs both, you know, more on a bigger level. We're doing it with a project based organization or association. But I think the smaller individual level should not be forgot forgotten. Because the you know, what's, what's the point of doing this practice, if it doesn't transform you, and if it doesn't manifest in the way you live your life.

Host  1:45:19

So you've had nearly it's been nearly 30 years now to the to the day, I guess if you went there in 1992. That's quite a lot of experience you've had in learning and reflecting and growing Burmese society, Burmese, Buddhist culture and monasteries. And you've shared during this interview, many of the ways that you've been influenced and grown by that interaction and influence and experience looking at it cumulatively, reflecting on those three decades, and now you're, of course not in Myanmar, you you carry it very much in your heart, I'm sure. And in your practice, reflecting on those 30 years and on how that's transformed you what you've learned, how it's influenced you, not just the teachings, but the actual cultural part, the people, the interactions, the experience of being there, which can't be replicated, how would you characterize what that you will have experience has taught you what looking back at those 30 years in totality, what have you taken away is some of the primary values and orientation towards life, that you can firmly say, this came from my experience in Myanmar, this is something Myanmar gave me that I carry with me every day, to this day going forward.

Ariya Baumann  1:46:51

One thing is the openness, the friendliness, of the people that really had had, has had a big influence on me, you know, the way of being open and friendly and helpful and took gifts and to share. I mean, the generosity of Burmese people is just, you know, so big. You know, when I started to realize how generous Burmese people are, I felt very ashamed, you know, coming from a rich country like Switzerland, although I was not growing up in a rich family. But seeing how, you know, many people who really are much poorer than I am, I was, in are still such a big heart and share the little rice that they have. You know, I was ashamed, as I said, and I really made an effort to become more generous. And actually, you know, just being there in the society, which is so generous, it wasn't so difficult to get the generous bug, you know, and become more generous. Myself. And another thing that really had a deep impact on me was how much they have a sense of family, and a family that is caring for each other. And especially, you know, children taking care of their parents. Because in our environment, they have basically no old folks home or nursing homes. There are a few, but not many. But here like in Switzerland, you know, there are so many nursing homes, old folks home. And, you know, this is kind of the natural thing, when people get old and, you know, cannot care for themselves anymore. They go into a old folks home, and they or they get the necessary care. You know, it's very unlikely that children take care of their parents. But you know, of course, this all has also to do with Western lifestyle, you know, you have to work you have to get money so that you can pay your flight and your car and your holidays and so on. But seeing, you know, the respect that Burmese people have for their parents, or, you know, for elderly people in general. Again, this had a deep impact on me. And I started to question this western model of putting old people in an old fool comb. And it was, you know, during that time that it dawned on me or, you know, it became clear on me so that when my parents would get old, and you know, needed help, you know, being frail or getting sick, that I wanted to be there for my parents, and to take care of them. And, you know, this must firm, this was kind of my attitude. And then it actually happened that for us, my mother got sick, she got cancer, and died within seven, seven months. So I was in Switzerland at the time, because I had my own health challenge with a leg that needed to be amputated. And so, you know, I was able to be there for my mother. And at the same time, my father was getting Alzheimer dementia. And so when my mother died, you know, it was clear that somebody needed to be with my father, to take care of him. And so I decided to take care of my father, to live with him in the house, and just be there for him. And so I did that for six months of the year. And for the other six months, we hired somebody to stay with my, my dad, and one of my brothers was a lot of the time there too. So, you know, I want to teach some retreats, that would not give up completely teaching, teaching retreats. And so for five years, I took care of my dad became more frail, and, you know, of all time I got stronger. And until he finally died two and a half years ago, I think, oriental if I hadn't been in Burma, and seen, you know, the respect and care that people have for elderly people, for parents, I don't know, if I would have cared for my parents in this way. But I must say, I am so happy, I'm so grateful, you know, that this was, you know, an option or this was what I was doing. And the time caring for my parents was just being on retreat in a different way. Again, you know, it deepened my practice.

Host  1:52:49

That's, that's really beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And that, and that kind of detail and how your own life story intersected with the lessons you learned, mundane and spiritually, Myanmar and thank you so much for the generous time that you've spent with us these couple of hours to go over this story, share three decades worth of experiences that the golden land has given you and still providing today as just a a last question to reflect on and thinking about your time in Myanmar that we like to ask meditators and people who had their spiritual practice what is your favorite place to meditate in Burma which which place holds the dearest memories of you can be transported there for an hour or a day? Which Which place in the country would you like to go to have a have a meditation sitting now?

Ariya Baumann  1:53:45

That's a quick question and actually not such an easy one. You know, there are so so many beautiful places. I have traveled quite a bit you know, kind of pilgrimage has gone to different parts in Myanmar's in different places. You know, usually meditation centers, you know, they are in in the cities, Yangon or Mandalay or places you know, like skying or the forest center in Morbi. And with all these meditation centers, you know, they are not really quiet peaceful places, or while peaceful but not really quiet. You know, there is the noise from the loudspeakers and also from the variety music that they play on loudspeakers or when they recite Buddhist texts or be dumb Patala and so on. And so, you know, my yearning had always been to be environment but in a place where there is no much not so much noise around. And finally, we're inside or in account established a center in Upper Burma, ERP only when that was really in the countryside, it was far enough away from villages that may know. It's quite a quiet place. It's in the hilly area are all looking the hills. So this is actually quite a favourite place of mine. No, it's conducive for meditation there. A climate is nice, it's not so hot that's down in Mandalay or Yangon. Of course, you know, there were there are nice places more, you know, in the wild, but you know, there are no no monasteries nor centers, they are in these more remote places or, you know, there are monasteries or centers, but as a foreigner, you are not allowed to be there. So, that's another dilemma, you know, as a foreigner, you cannot just go anywhere and settle anywhere where you like, but you know, government kind of is watching you wherever you are.

Host  1:56:43

Yeah, well, I hope that you and others will be able to reach that place again before long but at least it's you have the practice wherever you are. And thank you for sharing that practice. Thank you for the time that you took today to share your story i i I appreciated it so much and getting to know you more as a as a person and not just as a teacher and I think a lot of your other students and the wider listeners as well will get much out of it. So some thank you so much for taking this time.

Ariya Baumann  1:57:17

And thank you for giving this opportunity to share about my life my practice about Myanmar, the Myanmar people. And so I hope this is for the benefit and well being of all of us living beings. And May there be peace in the world

1:57:41

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Host  1:58:25

thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. As regular listeners are aware, we often remind our audience about our nonprofit mission better Burma at the end of the show. Truth be told, fundraising is hard work. And I can personally attest to the fact that it's really no fun to keep asking for contributions. Yet the situation on the ground in Myanmar is so distressing that we continue to do so on behalf of the Burmese people. But it's most helpful at this time our recurring donations, which help alleviate both the stress and time involved in fundraising. If you're able to pledge a certain amount per month, our team can plan around having at least a consistent minimum amount to work with every month. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution, any form currency your transfer method, Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities military defection campaigns, undercover journalists monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity or project you would like to support Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by a nonprofit mission that or Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org. That's b e t t e r, b u r m a.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account you can also visit either the Insight Myanmar or better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.

2:01:00

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