Transcript: Episode #84: Sitagu Sayadaw, The Coup, and Burmese Buddhism
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Bhikkhu Cintita, which appeared on January 16, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
Whether one is listening to this in Myanmar or from outside the country, we know this is a very difficult time for many of us. In trying times like these, we can all use a bit more care and compassion in our lives. So on behalf of the team here at insight Myanmar, I would like to say in the traditional way metta is offered, may you be free from physical discomfort. May you be free from mental discomfort. May You not meet dangerous or enemies. May you live a peaceful and happy life and May all beings be free and come out of suffering. And with that, let's move to the show. The era it was a good day I'm here with Bhikkhu Chiquita on inside me in my podcast. Vontae. Thank you so much for joining us here.
Bhikkhu Cintita 01:39
You're very welcome.
Host 01:42
Alright, so I hope to have a conversation about a rather sensitive topic, that I don't find this really being aired or examined publicly from least from what I've been able to see. During this conversation, we're going to be examining the monastic response of the Sangha, to the military coup in Myanmar. But more specifically, still, we're going to talk about the role of Situ Seda, who is the most important Buddhist monk in the country today. But before we do that, I would like listeners to know a little bit about you and your spiritual path. Because as we tried to understand who Citigo is, and the motivations driving him, we should know something about the person who is telling us this. So I first became acquainted with you several years ago from your autobiographical book, through the looking glass, which details your growing disenchantment with lay society and your eventual renunciation into the Buddhist monkhood. And spoiler alert, you ordained under city crusade as your preceptor in Myanmar. For me, personally, I really enjoyed this book, when I read it, I actually I think I read this in a monastery in the sky and hills, and it's living in a cave there for some time in my own practice. And I really enjoyed reading it, because there's just so little literature that's examining this real life and where you ended up in Myanmar and your interactions there. And I've long wanted to talk to you just about this part of your life and go over that spiritual biography of how you ended up. But of course, during this terrible military coup, we don't have that luxury at the moment to be able to spend the time I would like to there. But I think it's still important to learn a little bit about where you came from, and why you ended up wearing the robes. So for our listeners who have just heard of you at this moment, can you share a bit about where you came from and how you got to where you are now?
Bhikkhu Cintita 03:39
Oh, okay. So I came to Buddhism rather late in life. And when I was in my 40s, I'm 72 years old now. I had a academic background, was a professor of computer science, did research in quit in the corporate environment in artificial intelligence. And in 2001. I gave it all up gave up my career and decided to dedicate myself to Buddhism entirely. I had discovered Buddhism in the in the years prior to that, and was absolutely fascinated with it. It seemed to answer a lot of my questions. I originally practiced in the Zen tradition, Japanese Zen tradition. I was a one of the founding members of the Austin Zen Center here in Austin, Texas, and, and then ordained as a Zen priest in 2003. I found myself Zen, the Japanese Buddhist tradition is almost entirely lost its monastic component And I found myself more and more drawn to monastic practice what you find in, in Japanese Zen is a priesthood. Married priests largely, who do not follow all of the precepts and clearly are not celibate. I wanted to renunciate completely the more I learned about monastic life. And so while I was a Zen priest, I began exploring other Buddhist traditions and looking for an opportunity to ordain in a windy tradition. And look far and wide. I visited a lot of monasteries, but one of the monasteries I began visiting, was the Sita Gu, Buddha, we gotta here in Austin. At that time, there were four Burmese monks living here in a house trailer, and it was on 16 acres of forest, basically, and very primitive. But I made very good connections with the Burmese monks. They're just wonderful, sweet people. And I talked with monks over a period of years in 2008, I finally decided, I want to become a Tera Vaada monk, I was ordained as a Zen priest in 2003. But I became very interested in the pure Wynia the pure monastic tradition, the way the Buddha established it. I had been around the block many times in my life and found nothing that was worth hanging on to I wanted to, to undertake the path of renunciation completely, or as completely as one can reasonably and and so I began looking around for other opportunities for ordaining in a Wynia full monastic tradition. And I looked at visited many monasteries here in Texas and also in California where I'm from and I befriended the the monks here at the Sita Gu Buddha, we Hatha I first came out here in 2004. And made very good connections at that time, there were four Burmese monks living in a house trailer, in the middle of 16 acres of forest it was very undeveloped, very primitive. And I came and visited here over a period of years while I thought about ordaining in the be in as a Bhiku. And in 2008 I finally after a visit to a by a deity monastery in California, I decided the Tera Vaada school is, is for me, I decided I wanted to ordain as a terrible Tera Vaada Bhiku sheen, Adi ADAMA, who was the abbot here in Austin, agreed to ordain me actually, he offered to ordain me. And he said the best thing to do would be to travel with him to Myanmar in early 2009. to ordain there, and then remain in Myanmar for a year so that's what I did. He arranged for his teacher who was see to go see Otto to ordain me so he is actually my preceptor. He gave me my name chin Tita is a little bit of a funny story. He, he didn't, I had never met him. I didn't really know who he was. And, but he sat me down. He says, We need to find a name for you. What day of the year what day of the week were you born? said Tuesday. Okay. How long did you think about becoming a Tera Vaada monk. I said about four years. He said, four years long time. I'll call you chin DITA good thinker. So what I learned was I was quite surprised by C to go see Otto because he is has such big operation, he has so many things that that he is doing all at once. So, up to the up to now he's founded over 40 hospitals in Myanmar. He's kind of known as the monk who gets things done. He's founded three monastic colleges, a meditation center. He's done work in providing running water to a large part of Sagaing hills in central Myanmar. And he's done disaster relief work particular Lee, after the nardus cyclone in 2007. So he's quite active, he's somebody with a big heart and it's very much engaged in, in social service projects. And also in in Buddhist education. He's known in Myanmar largely because he's a wonderful public speaker, he doesn't come off so well in English, but he does in in Burmese, I kind of think of him as the Billy Graham of Myanma and because he can attract very large audiences he can attract 10,000 people to a to a Dhamma talk in in Myanmar. He can also very effectively raise funds for all of his projects, he just has to put word out that they are collecting funds and people begin to contribute usually very small amounts of money but it accumulates when you have a lot of people I don't have a very close relationship with Sita goosey Otto but I've talked to him and seen him many many times over the intervening years. And I I know people who are very close disciples of him including the abbot here in Austin, and the abbot in Minnesota at the CD Gu dama we Hatha in Minnesota. So I get I feel I feel kind of when it comes to CPUs, Seattle, I, I you know, I I can get I can hear things almost from the horse's mouth when I ask people about him.
Host 12:47
So it's interesting because on your spiritual path, it sounds like you were definitely interested in being able to, to renounce more fully to follow greater vinyasa to be Theravada and monk, and you were looking around stateside, and the fact that you ran into these monks who happened to be from Myanmar, they happen to be associated with Sitta goo, in the middle of this wild nature, living in this trailer, that was it was something in your interaction with them, that brought you into this greater fold and greater monastic experience. But it sounds like it was really those four monks that were the initial draw into that path, that specific path and tradition. Is that right?
Bhikkhu Cintita 13:30
Yeah, well, one of the monks in particular who spoke excellent English, which was very helpful. And then he left the monastery here. And then the monastery acquired a new Abbot, a shin Alia Dhamma, who is who I'm closest to here. Now, I'm also very close to the the abbot of the monastery in Minnesota.
Host 13:57
And what about these monks drew you to them so much that you had so much faith in who they were, how they were living, what they were practicing, that you were willing to take this very big step in your life, there must have been something about them that really gave you that confidence and faith.
Bhikkhu Cintita 14:13
Well, I found that among various monks and I wasn't particularly drawn to or gaining here I would have might have considered ordaining at a by a yeti monastery, which is a largely it it's a Thai monastery. But all of the monks there are Westerners and but they had a limit on age limit for ordaining at 35 and so I came back and she Nadia Dhamma. offered to ordain me when I expressed an interest. I've found the I find that Burmese monks are quite agreeable. They're just the you know, they're very likeable. They're very easygoing. The life here is very harmonious, I never have any kinds of I've always found the Burmese monks very easy to get along with, they're very sincere in their practice. There's always been a cultural divide. But I'm very open to that. It's fascinating to live with people who are not really from a modern world in many ways. They're, they're very doubt of devout that lay people are very devout. So I found this, I've always found this very compatible. I've always lived in complete harmony with all of the Burmese monks.
Host 15:57
Right, and then you went to Myanmar you ordained under city Crusader. And then you live that cynical Academy in the sky in hills for a year. This was largely documented in the book through looking
Bhikkhu Cintita 16:10
for a few months, a few months. Okay, other other places a couple months at Powell, oak Toyah Meditation Center, and in a couple of months in the SeatGuru, center and in Rangoon, as well. So tell
Host 16:28
us a little about those experiences of being a monk in Myanmar?
Bhikkhu Cintita 16:33
Well, it was, I guess, it was very, very challenging. I had had a lot of Zen practice, meditation practice was used to a rigorous meditation schedule, and things like that. In a lot of ways, the practice in Myanmar was easier because Burmese Buddhism is much less formal than in Japanese Buddhism. The conditions were sometimes primitive, but actually the CV Gu centers are, are quite well and Daoud. The one of the things, I guess that stands out was that I was kind of a novelty. In Myanmar, I was quite unique, I would go, I think one time I went for two months, I never saw another Westerner, people would find me very exotic. And I realized, as soon as I returned to the United States, I would be seen as very exotic here too. It was interesting, but the the now amount of respect, that monastics enjoy in Myanmar caught me by surprise, having people bow at my feet. And I never thought of myself as worthy of that. And I got over it very, very quickly by realizing that I'm not worthy of it. It's the Sangha, the traditional Sangha that they're bowing to, I imagine myself as a I thought of a Buddha, a Buddhist statue that gets a lot of bows. And the Buddha statue might be made of plaster. And yet, it happens to be the shape of a Buddha. And so people treat it as a sacred object. And so that's how I began to think of myself I'm, I'm just a piece of plaster. I'm playing a role. I'm wearing the robes and so people have to, I have a need to treat you with an enormous amount of respect as a sacred being almost. So that got the that was interesting to get to get used to. Now I just kind of take it. The idea is to maintain your humility, I think, but I think for younger people, that is probably very challenging, it would have been for me if I was younger. Right, that
Host 19:25
reminds me there was I read your book a number of years ago, but there was just one line in there that always stayed in my mind that I quite liked. And I'm paraphrasing obviously, so I'm probably gonna get it somewhat wrong, but it was a line where you would talk about your the first half of the book, as I remember was your disenchantment with the world and journey towards renunciation. The second part was being a monk and talking about how that felt to wear the robes and the as you described just now a kind of growing acceptance and understanding for what that meant, who it was. We don't have these kinds of roles in western society so much anymore. So this was something new you were learning and you would align of something like I now knew what I was, I was a Buddhist monk, and this is who I was in the world. And this now told me everything I need to know about the decision I made and how it was to act. And it was just put so simply in terms of your acceptance of the role that you had, I think it might have even been in the context of trying to understand who you were for much of your life. And suddenly you had fallen into this, this role that that was very clear, this is who I am, this is what I represent. This is how I'm to live and there was just a comfort in that clarity and renunciation of who you were to be and how people were to relate to you and what you were to do with your days now.
Bhikkhu Cintita 20:46
i I'm kind of a very shy person, and I just thought I would have a simple ordination. And senoko CRO had just initiated a new ordination halda and a new pagoda. That was huge and quite beautiful. It's the main city group pagoda now, and it was, had just been constructed. And I was the first person to ordain there. And there were at monks at my ordination. Normally five or required. So it was a much bigger deal than I that I thought it would be. So after my ordination, one of the monks I had met asked me what, what feels different now that you're a monk? And my answer was, I know who I am. And then I began thinking about it. And I thought, you know, I already knew who I was, I think I knew who I was when I decided to ordain. But what had changed. So I went back to that monk, and I said, you know, I answered wrongly, I now have a community that knows who I am. And so the difference was that practicing Buddhism in a Western Community, and especially in the Zen community, the idea of monastic ordination and renunciation is quite foreign. And, and I suddenly realized I was in a culture that embrace that, that has a lot of respect for that ordination, and that understood what I was doing. And that was the huge difference for me.
Host 22:39
Yeah, I remember that. And that was why I was so moved by the line because I was reading the book because I was also a Westerner, integrating not so much in monastic life, because I didn't become a monk. But I actually was living in monastic life in the sense that I was a lay meditator and more precepts at a monastery and understanding what this division really meant between lay and monastic, which I think takes Westerners some time to wrap their minds around. And your understanding of that moment, and transformation was something that always stayed in my mind that you at this moment, you you knew who you were, and what path you had chosen. And there was a certain simplicity in that that I appreciated.
Bhikkhu Cintita 23:23
Yeah, yeah. But mostly the community support and just belonging to a community, I think was what really struck me
Host 23:30
how so? So it was a Burmese Buddhist community, how did that Burmese Buddhist community influence your growth and development and commitment and everything else?
Bhikkhu Cintita 23:40
It was just living in a community that understood what it was I was doing what it was to ordain as a monk. There, it's quite widely understood. Most men have been monks at some time or other and, and just about everybody has a relative who's a who's a monk. And, and so it's that social support, I think, was the the big difference for me.
Host 24:16
So then once you did ordain and you stayed at a number of monasteries, you were in Myanmar for a year as a Buddhist monk, what was that experience? Like?
Bhikkhu Cintita 24:28
In Myanmar, yes. The well it was quite exotic. Sometimes very primitive living conditions. Very hot weather. And, but, you know, a very compatible and very supportive community all the time. I think I learned a lot in that first year that I spent in in Myanmar and I'm glad i i spent The year there.
Host 25:02
Right? What would you say? Now looking back on it, what were some of the big learnings you had in your life as a Buddhist monk in your spiritual development?
Bhikkhu Cintita 25:14
I think, you know, the interaction of the community and in the Sangha is, is, is primary, I spent a lot of time meditating a lot of time studying there. A lot of time teaching English people. In fact, I, I really didn't have to learn Burmese while I was there. Because I was kind of in an English speaking bubble. Everywhere I went, I was surrounded by these young monks who are anxious to improve their English. And so I had automatically automatic interpreters. In all of that, I enjoyed teaching, I like teaching. And so I taught a lot of classes for the monks in speaking English. But most of the practice, I think, except for the community aspects, most of it is quite compatible or comparable to Zen practice. Also, that I was used to, well, it has the same components. Meditation study, certain amount of ritual practice, chanting. So I just basically went along with the practice.
Host 26:48
Right. So as you were there, you did have some interaction with city Crusader, not a whole lot, as you mentioned, but you you did interact with him somewhat. And you were able to learn something about both his background and his biography and his accomplishments, as well as the ongoing projects of what he was doing, what he was overseeing and administering while you were there. So can you give some background on what you learned about his his life up to that point?
Bhikkhu Cintita 27:20
So what I learned in Myanmar is the extent of his organization, I actually have very, very little contact with him because he was always so busy. He travels a lot. He travels all over Asia all over the world, on various projects, or on lecture tours. And I've learned to know him more in America than than I did in Myanmar. So when he when he comes before COVID, he would generally come here to Austin about two times a year. Stay here for a few days each time have a lot of visitors but have more time to interact with the with the monks that are here. I've seen him in. Let's see, I don't think I've seen him in Minnesota. I've been up there frequently. I've seen them in Cal. I've seen them mostly in Austin. But I learned a lot about him. One other lay person here in Austin that was interesting, interested in writing a book, a biography of Sita goosey Otto in English, there are several biographies in Burmese. And his idea was that he would translate these other biographies selectively into English, but he needed me to help to, to, to make it into beautiful English. And so he and I worked on this project, and I learned a lot about CTO CEOs life through working on this biography, because see to go Seattle has become so controversial in the last few years because of Burmese politics, we realize that the book was not publishable, at least at this time in the West. So we're, we're still sitting on it. What were
Host 29:20
some of the things from the biography that stood out to you and and stood out to you not just in being interesting, but in providing a richer, a richer, fuller explanation of the man of the monk of what he'd accomplished?
Bhikkhu Cintita 29:34
Yeah, he's, he's what I think in the West, we would call a renaissance man. He has a lot of capabilities. He was largely a scholar monk in his in his early years, but he took several years off to live in the forest and meditate in one state Then, then he studied with a, a teacher in central Burma in order to learn to to give Dharma talks, who was a great or Raider and Cebu Seattle wanted to be an aura Raider. So, we studied with this particular teacher. And when this particular teacher suffered a stroke, he basically he had certain rounds, certain places that he would give Dharma talks along the following a yearly schedule, and so he actually appointed see to Seattle into his role, because he couldn't give the Dharma talks and see if he goes to immediately made a made a big splash, he became a very popular public speaker. And, as an early early on as a monk, in the middle of his studies, he took a trip with some other monks to Shan State near the Chinese border. And they happened upon this hospital run by a an American Baptist, American Baptist doctor from Tennessee. And CP Garcia was fascinated by it and got the tour of the hospital talk to the to the doctor who ran it and was very impressed by it because they ran, they offered medical care on a sliding scale. They never turned anybody away. Anybody who was a cleric from any religious tradition, got free medical care. And, and CDC No wonder, you know, why is it that there are no Buddhist hospitals? He, you know, at least on that scale, he said, Buddhism teaches kindness, compassion. And yet you know, what, where's the why can't they create a hospital to help out people that are that are sick. And he thought about it, he could think of a lot of Christian hospitals Christians are, of course very good at Charity. He could think of Muslim hospitals, he could think of Hindu hospitals but he couldn't think of a Buddhist hospital. That was anything like that. And so he determined at a young age, he said, Someday I'm going to found a hospital. So we went on, and he's now founded over 40 hospitals in in Myanmar, and showed that Buddhist can do it. He he began well, because while he's doing speaking tours, he realizes he realized he could raise money and so he began these public service projects. The first one was not a hospital. It was to provide running water for Sagaing hills. By raising money to install pumps, along the water line along the Irrawaddy River, pump them up to tanks at the top of the hills, and which were placed in monasteries, and then provide free running water for all of the monasteries and Sagaing hills. So we undertook that project shortly after that he founded the hospital and then came 1988. The student uprising it wasn't really an uprising, it was just people demonstrating really, but when, when the military responded to the uprising, so brutally seedy, coo coo, the uprisings were largely in Rangoon but also in Mandalay, which is near where coo coo was living. CT cuscinetto Immediately after August 8 1988, which is when everything came to a head in Myanma coo coo right after that delivered a sermon on the responsibilities of kings. And it was just highly critical of the military government and criticize them for not meeting their responsibility to the people. He He was doing this about the same time Aung San Su Qi was being recruited in Rangoon to give her famous talk that launched her political engagement in the situation. But seeing the Seattle continued his lecture tour, and he gave this talk 40 times throughout Myanmar, the BBC picked it up and broadcast it on their Burmese language program. And so almost everybody in Myanmar heard this, this talk. And of course, everybody hates almost everybody hates the military. And, and so it actually increased his popularity quite a bit. Right after the this uprising, the military was trying to improve its public image, it was trying to work with the opposition, and try to come to terms with them. And, and of course, it agreed that there would be elections, democratic elections in 1990. As a result, coo coo at first didn't feel any repercussions from giving this talk. The military stopped arresting people for a time. But after the military failed to recognize the results of the elections, see to goose Yeto got word through his vast network of connections, that that they were going to arrest him for giving that talk, they were suppressing all of the opposition at that time. To the against, they're not recognizing the results of the elections. So coo coo, quietly left the country and went into exile came to the United States and lived in Tennessee for two years. At that time, he got the idea of starting a monastery, a Burmese monastery in America. And that's actually the origin of our monastery here in Austin, Texas. He worked with the local community here to buy eventually buy some property. But okay, here's the interesting thing about CD cuscinetto, as is really a fundamental Leader of the Opposition. He had gone into exile. And people didn't know where he went. He just disappeared. So the military, the people thought, you know, maybe the military killed them or imprisoned him and just never told anybody where he was. And the military government actually invited him to come back. The but under certain conditions, they invited them to come back because they were again worried about their public image. And CD gustado had become a prominent monk. And they and they were being accused of getting rid of them. So what he agreed to was that he would come back to Myanmar, he would be allowed to continue all of his social service programs. But he was not allowed to engage in politics or any kind of opposition. He had to leave the military government alone and they would leave him alone. So this is the condition he's been working under, ever since. The military is actually one of the impressive things as the military has kept up their side of the bargain. They gave him complete freedom. If you traveled to Myanmar as a Sita Gu monk, or under CV Gu ASPA sees you never have to go through. You never have to go through customs. If you're writing in a couple of occasions, I was writing in a in a car that's marked CD Gu with one of the other monks we borrowed one from the monastery. At that time, there were military checkpoints all over the country. You'd be right driving, taking a bus or driving your car down the street and there would be soldiers there. They've check all your documents usually have people get out of the car, or out of the bus, except monks, they'd never make them get out. But as soon as they had see the car marked with Sita goo on the top of the windshield, they would notice that and then just wave, wave the car through. So they had a unusual relationship. Now I know from discussion with Cebu, he he developed close relations with the military in order to cooperate with them and get their cooperation and they usually would do things for him. For instance, in in 2020, when Kota COVID problems started, see to go wanted to get 500 monks, Burmese monks who were living in India, to get them back into Burma, and then quarantine and then let them join the Burmese monastic population. And they could not take commercial flights. So what coo coo did was he, he phoned up a person in the Aung San Su Qi government in the civilian government, and said that, you know, he needed two planes to, to do this to pick up this many monks. Could they arrange it? It took a long time they were going and hiring and had to get it approved at various levels, and CTO CFO lost patience with them. And so he phoned up. He phoned up general Amin, Lang, who's now the dictator of Myanmar. And he said, You know, I need to get these monks back to Burma, can you help me? And, and the general said, immediately, you know, I'll skip your three planes tomorrow. So that he always had this kind of cooperation. He never had very much respect for the, for the generals, or what they stood for, or for their brutality. And I know that from hearing that from him and discussions with with him, but he did work out a relationship where he could cooperate with them.
Host 42:28
That's quite interesting. I want to just clarify and expand on the last thing you said, because I think that will be of enormous interest for people listening to this, that it was your understanding that he was very unhappy. That's to say it, I was very unhappy with the military leaders and the generals. And you believe he felt this way by things he said to you. Can you be a bit more specific and how you remember him, describing his feelings towards the military and expressing his displeasure?
Bhikkhu Cintita 43:05
You know, I can't remember what words he said. And he did not go into into detail. But it was like him dismissing them and shaking his head that I can't remember exactly what he what he said. He did have think highly of certain people in the military. And he had a very high opinion of loathing, saying, who became the first president of, of Myanmar, Hussein sang was a general who took off his uniform in order to run in order to be president in the new civilian government. And he was kind of known as the uncorruptible. General, he had a lot more compassion than other generals. And that's probably why he was chosen by the the rest of the generals put put forward for that, that position because he would be more acceptable to civilians than than the other generals. So I know that Sita goosey Otto had had a fairly good relationship when he became president. But but but I know that that he has he doesn't think highly of the generals. I know mostly from his disciples, who I know we have several monks here are disciples of his that they are all very anti military, every one of them.
Host 44:56
Right and before we move on and look in a bit more detail about the current year, I want to back up just a little bit to comment on some of the things you said and add some of my own understandings of the time that I've spent in Myanmar and the research that I've done, of just painting a picture of this multifaceted person. And you know, let's face it, people are not simple. They're especially someone some of the great figures that that rise to take on great responsibilities and history, they have many sides of them. And as much as some people might be disappointed by, justifiably so by the current actions, I do want to, honestly and reasonably look at what came before that, and at least the limited knowledge I've had, in my experience, I want to comment on your description of providing water through the sky and hills and just emphasize what a remarkable achievement this was the sky and hills are this incredible place. And as you said, in central Myanmar, where it's been a real bedrock of practice of, for centuries, monks who have come to this place to want to practice very serious meditation deep in the forest, and away from wherever the capital was at the time and orthodoxy. And there's the stories going back, hundreds, sometimes 1000s of years of the different monks and the different periods who would come and how they would practice and these tales that would come out of their stories of how ardently they were practicing what they were achieving. And I spent a lot of time in the GYN hills as well. And so I would learn about some of these places and histories and monks as I went around. And one of the things I learned while there was that the, the sky and hills were a nice place to practice because it was close enough to the Irrawaddy River that they would be able to access their water, but it was far enough away, they could feel isolated, but the deeper into the sky and hills they went, the further away they were from those water sources. And so because of that, and some of these old monasteries, they would build these enormous water tanks that would collect the rains. And then, depending on how heavy the rains were, and how bad the hot season was, they would hope that the rains they collected during the rainy season would last them through the hot season until the next rains. And this was how the monks survived. There might have been ways to carry water to them, or the monks might have had to move but so much of their life and their practice and their culture. And what they decided to do was based on the simple fact of how do we get water, because the sky and hills are this this rolling patchwork of different hills and crags and cliffs and various places, there's not really a lot of big monasteries up there. They're they're pretty small places where only a handful of monks will stay in a certain certain site. And there are wild animals, animals too, we can go into the stories of the tiger attacks, and so much else and the ghosts and everything. But leaving that to the side. Water was such an important element for how they can live and practice here. And so when Citigo say it brought water through the pipelines into these all these various monasteries and nunneries across this network, he changed this history overnight overnight, he changed it from a place where one's ability to live and practice was based on this fundamental human need of water that was now streaming through them freely. And as you would walk around the sky and hills, you'd look at all the different water systems of all the tiny monasteries and nunneries and caves and other places, and where the city goo waterways had connected them, that had now changed the course of their history of where and how they were able to live. So this knowing that background, you'd see the significance of just what it was to provide that water. Moving on to a couple of other things that I know initiatives that he undertook just to mention them very briefly because they could take up a whole episode and of themselves. One of them advocating for women advocating for female meditators and supporters and nuns, the whole build up of sky nunneries all around this guy in hills, all this countless nunneries and the the inclination for women to want to come to sky and to ordain as nuns. To say it, as I've understood has been such a big advocate of the path for the female renunciate and the other thing to mention is that I've heard is English language learning that when he came around the fact of Burmese Buddhist monks, learning English was seen as taking on a kind of language of your your colonizer of your enemy of your, your, your nonbeliever. And because it was so forward thinking and aware of the greater world, he did not see the English language as a barrier or an opponent for the practice of Buddhism but as a stepping stone as An ally. And so he insisted and supported English Language Programs for monks which are now very commonplace and we don't in 2021, we don't really think of Burmese Buddhist monks learning English as something that is going against their training or their objective or or their their path. But from what I've understood at that time, and I don't know when that would be the 70s 80, something like that, that was not as far removed as the Independence era is now that English language was seen by some was kind of the enemy in situ Gu took charge and how the initiative to really reverse that understanding and to show that English could be used in service of Buddhism in service of monasticism, rather than against it. So I think
Bhikkhu Cintita 50:46
there was a period before before this all happened. I think there was a five year period when the military government actually outlawed teaching English in schools, just to spite the British. They also at that time, change the the side of the street that people drive on. Right people drive on the right side of the street now, like we do here in America, rather than the left side of the street. So, so anyway, yeah, there was, yeah, so that was a little forward thinking. You're right.
Host 51:28
Yeah. So we're painting the picture of this complicated, nuanced person that has lived eight decades on this Earth and has accomplished a tremendous amount and is not all one thing or the other. And I think this is a really important context and background to however briefly, we've painted to be able to give some kind of portrayal as we get up to February 1, and trying to understand where we are now. And that's where I'd like to move the conversation. And I don't want to mince words about how delicate this subject is and where we're going. And before we get into more detail about that, I'd like to give some background from my side first. So please allow me just a moment to discuss a little bit about laying the groundwork for this conversation. On one hand, at least prior to the coup, there was a kind of reticence on the part of laypeople to speak critically of monks. I think this was partly out of the custom of having so much reverence towards monks in society. This itself comes from this belief that there's this higher spiritual status and powers of monks. So before February, very few Burmese Buddhists whatever deign to express these some not even think, skepticism about city Crusader. This has clearly changed now. So let me say here that very few listeners when I announced this interview, I wanted to survey and collect questions that people might want to ask. Very few listeners were very pleased that this conversation was going to take place, honestly speaking, several volunteered that this would be the one interview on my platform that they would not listen to, I hope their mind can be changed when it comes out. As I elicited and asked some questions to listeners, some of them didn't respond with questions, but they responded with statements and I just want to read some of their words just so we have an understanding of the current climate and how tense it is, and what we're trying to navigate as we have this conversation. One person wrote nowadays venerable city, who say it cannot show his face anywhere in the world, outside the protection offered by the murdering military coup maker and his henchmen. Very soon this will also perish he is black in the face of Burmese Buddhism. Another comment. I was born among Buddhists in Burma, I'm very disappointed by city crusade as support of the generals. I'm disappointed in the Bomar version of Buddhism due to monks like him and read a final comment. My opinion of Siddiq Hussein is that he is an unfortunate symbol of what has been wrong with the MaHA sangha members in various countries. They seem detached from ethics and clear seem divorced from dharma. And the example of the great book who's like Arjun Shah. They hold high positions and like politicians seek to have power control and access to very powerful politicians and riches. At a time when the people of Myanmar need to be inspired by courageous ethical monks like Sid monks likes to say, leave people saddened and disappointed, knowing that these monastics are aligned with the same men who shoot them in the streets. Others were more vocal that expressed their opinion. They warned me that I was going to allow a military sympathizer to gain access to the platform and try to paint an alternative view. Some even alerted me that it would be a serious danger the conversation could ultimately provide some kind of cover to sit to goo for His suppose its support of the military and it would encourage more monks to do the same. Of course, given the integrity that I've sensed the new from your writing the conversations we've had before the interview, I have full trust, this is not the case. And I was also intrigued by your feeling that while you're quite upfront in feeling disappointed by certain actions, you do feel that city crusade has been misunderstood. And since sharing this with me, I've been self reflective about some of my own statements and posts online. And I realized I might have jumped the gun too early. And some of my own condemnation of things I heard without knowing the full context just out of the horror and the frustration of what was going on and hearing some bit of the story where he was involved and feeling quite disappointed at some of those comments have indicated. And, and so as you openly share your thoughts and findings, I want to be able to hear them honestly, and allow my own understanding to be changed, if that happens in some areas, and I hope that listeners can do that as well. But that being said, the conversation will have to be quite frank and highlighting some of these recent controversial points, and examining what is there to be found. And so this really is a delicate path for both of us to be able to discuss, and I appreciate your courage in being able to come on and discuss that. And I wanted to foreground this for the listener in alerting that we are certainly aware of the sensitivities in what follows, and we will do our best to manage it. So with that, we can move on to talking a little bit about what we've seen this year and in the previous years. And I would also like to check in with you what are your thoughts on hearing all this of what I've what I've just laid out?
Bhikkhu Cintita 57:01
I'm aware of the controversy about CDC data when you and I have talked about this in the in the past. I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding, but there is a lot of that Sita goosey Otto has, has done very unskillful li let me make clear, I'm not a supporter of the military, whatever. I'm not even a supporter of the American military. I'm I've been very much a pacifist since the Vietnam War. I've never and and I see the the great harm that the Burmese military has, has done. They're quite brutal. They brutalize their own people in in, you know, just egregious ways. And then they the generals of enriching themselves, they they own a very large part of the the Burmese economy while they're driving the Burmese economy into the ground. There's nothing positive I can say about the generals. Except that you know that some of them may be a little bit better than than others. It's always the case. The generals purport to be Buddhists, but they're not very good Buddhists, maybe their wives are. I think they use Buddhism in order to improve their their public image. They they love getting photo ops, they love being shown making donations to to monasteries. I think they've manipulated the Sangha very, very skillfully. So I have nothing positive to say about the military. I'm not a defender of the military, and I'm not a defender of anybody who is a defender of the military. But let me clarify. I let me introduce Saddam first say a few words about him. Here. He is a monk I'm very close to lives in Minnesota. He is a very, very close disciple of Sita goosey Otto and has been for many years one of his most senior disciples. He usually talks on the phone with CD gustado about once every week or or two. And sometimes you can judge a teacher by their students. What you find is what I find in Los Angeles, he he agrees with me on just about everything about Burmese politics, that's wrong with Burmese politics. He himself was a protester in this period around a 1988 and spent six months in prison for just for protesting. He is, is totally appalled with almost everything the military does. He was appalled with the Rohingya genocide. He is appalled with their behavior now and with the, with the coup and, and he is also a very strong supporter of the Muslim population in in Myanmar. He won. Let's see, I think in 2013, maybe there was a there was some violence in a town called Matey law in central Burma that followed upon some of the early violence in the Rohingya area. That surprised everybody. There was mob violence on both sides. But of course, these were Bernie speaking Muslims that lived in the town and Burmese speaking Buddhists. And there was this, suddenly, these these riots happening. osato was in Myanmar at the time. But he had was involved in the running of a hospital in a monastery in the Sperry town of maytee law. So in the middle of the riots, he traveled down there because some of the employees of the hospital were Muslim. And he wanted to make sure that they were safe. He he was staying at the monastery that he was already associated with. And while he was in the in the building, there were a Buddhist mob was chasing some Muslims down the street, about 40 to 50 of them. He opened the door to the monastery and told the Muslims to come in here where it's safe. And the mob wanted to break into the monastery. And who also told the mob, he says you kill me first before you touch any of them. He kept them in the monastery for several days until it was safe to go out in the range that Buddhist families would bring food to them. And so these are kind of stories you don't hear of that this is one of Siddiqui coos close disciples, who owes to God is very critical of coo coo in certain ways. And he's very open with me about this. And I agree with his with his criticisms. But I don't agree that the CDC is a supporter of the military, he has this arrangement with the military, he takes advantage of it. I think CQC is very naive and Osella tlcb Busara this, but just as you have the monks kind of standing as authorities to the lay people, such that the lay people don't like to contradict the monks within the Sangha, the Burmese Sangha, you do not contradict the more senior monk, one who has more has been a monk longer and coo coo can be very stubborn about things. So secrecy became very controversial in 2017. And we can talk about that with relation to the Rohingya situation. And now he's become controversial again with relation to the to the coup. Basically, because of typical CEOs arrangement with the military, it would be hard for him to speak out. My own feeling would be that it would be good proceeded to Seattle to leave the country and then speak out. If he speaks out a non MMA he would probably be arrested immediately. If he speaks out at all. Probably all of his public service operations would be shut down by the military or taken over by the military and and not run competently. So So basically, what what's happened since the coup is the You know, this is very bad judgment on CD two CEOs part is that in February right after the coup general being on playing, came to visit him at his monastery. This was actually a meeting that had been arranged before to and also many of his senior disciples were telling him cancel this don't meet with him. It's going to look very bad but seems to melt with him anyway. By the way, who Oh said ally knows me not general Nino and fling as as well. doesn't respect them but but knows him and especially his wife. See to go CRO tends to be very uninformed. And I think in a position that he's in. That's, that's not excusable. He should get access to information. I think. The Burmese in general really aren't very critical of news media or where they're getting stories. They kind of have the idea that if it's on Facebook, it must be true. But in one of the talks that see because Seattle CRO delivered early on, he referred to election fraud. This was a huge mistake. This is the general this is the military line that they had to stage a coup. Because the election that had happened the previous November was fraudulent. Sita goosey Otto has been involved in the building of a Giant Buddha statue in Napi dough the capital of Myanmar. And he made a public appearing parents on March 26. To do a blessing ceremony for this statue and of course it gave up the generals a lot of photo ops. He has been building a pagoda in Moscow, Russia. There's a Burmese population in Moscow and the population is military. It's consists of soldiers and their families where the soldiers are involved in a mutual cooperation program with the with the Russian military. Most of the soldiers are Buddhists. So there was some demand for a a monastery to be found in Moscow and CPUC. Otto was largely responsible for that. He the Pagoda is still under construction and there was a time when he needed to go to Moscow in order to do a blessing. Now here's where he made his probably his his biggest blunder. He couldn't get a commercial flight to Moscow because of COVID all the airlines commercial airlines were shut down. So what does he do? He goes gets on an airplane with the general who was second in command. In in, in Myanmar. The general so when he got on the plane with general with general son went to Moscow, Mo general so when his he was going there to make arms purchases from the Russians, which are arms that are going to be used to shoe that demonstrators in in Myanmar, and see to Seattle during this period, who said I was telling them don't get on that plane don't meet with them. But CPUC Otto was just single mindedly pursuing this, you know that he just wanted to work on his pagoda and just saw that opportunity. Apparently who also does finally convince CD cuscinetto I understand and see if this sticks that he is really harming the the opposition by appearing with the generals so much. So CDU Seattle last I know, was stuck in still stuck in Moscow because he decided he would not take a military plane back And, and so he had he had been looking for a commercial flight last I heard he find that found a commercial flight through Sri Lanka. So hopefully, see, because Seattle will be a little more sensitive to the needs of the Burmese people, as they're fighting of, you know, very brutal battles with the with the military and so much suffering is, is going on now and in Myanmar.
Host 1:10:37
That's, there's a lot there. And there's you covered some incredible points, I just want to go back to the very first thing you said, when you started that all off. I think it's incredibly important to get the background and your commentary and understanding of this. You taught you referenced the now infamous 2017 speech and current state that be a noun Garrison to soldiers, including officers that were in attendance, who had carried out some of the terror in in Rakhine against the Rohingya. And this talk was extremely controversial, and has been, especially these days has been referenced and referred to many times. You learned about this talk and you investigated it yourself and tried to understand it. So can you walk listeners through exactly what was said during this talk, and then what your understanding of the background in the context of this discourse was?
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:11:40
Yeah, so he gave, he gave a talk. He was actually to a military training school, it was in kind state. It was at a very inauspicious time because the genocide against the Rohingya was going on as he spoke. But, but very often, monks do give talks to military groups. And so he gave this talk. And a very common theme of talks that is often given to military kind of, for reasons that I don't fully understand is, is to cite the MaHA Wang Sa. The Maha wanks is kind of a chronicle of Sri Lankan history. It's not really a Buddhist text, but it was composed in Pali, the Buddhist scriptural language. During the approximate time that the the commentaries were being composed in Sri Lanka, and so it has kind of semi scriptural status, it's not really Buddhist scripture. But it's highly regarded. The chapter 25 of this text, describes it's called the victory of domini due to Gamini was the Sri Lankan Buddhist King, who defeated the two meals in a big battle. And the story that the MaHA Wang says, cites talks about the battle and the aftermath of the battle. But there's a short passage in there that is very, very controversial. And this is the passage where the king feels remorse because all of the two meals that he's had to kill to win this battle, and is convinced that he will be reborn in hell. There are eight are a haunts that appear and tell him that he will not go to hell because he was not fighting the war for his own. For personal reasons for his own wealth or Glory, he was fighting it to preserve the Buddhist tradition in in Sri Lanka. So it's kind of justification for for Holy War, which you will never find in any of the Buddhist talks. It then says that it's often I think, mistranslated what it says is that the our Hans assure him that the people he killed were almost all evil people. This is what you always want to believe when you go to war that the enemy is evil. That's why you demonize the enemy when we go to war. But, but he said this describes it as they do not follow the precepts and they have wrong view. People sometimes translated as saying they're non Buddhists. It's not Paul fuller comments on this and points out that there's really no way to say non Buddhist in Pali, it doesn't really say that it says they're a wrong view. And they don't follow the Buddhist precepts. I think it was understood, but they're also precepts that any any religious tradition follows. But that these were evil people. This passage is very controversial. No, this was picked up apparently by Matthew Walton, who's a very respected authority on, on, on Myanmar and on on Buddhists. And he's a he's a scholar, I find that if you want to know about what's going on in Myanmar, if you go to what Matthew Walton says, it usually turns out to be true. He picked up on this story, he read a transcript or maybe maybe heard the recording of the talk, and was absolutely appalled that the CD goo CRO would be would quote this mahabang PSA, and talk about Holy War and, and an evil enemy right in the middle of the Rohingya situation. So this is kind of the context that became immediately controversial. And when I heard about it, I was able to locate a transcript of the talk and I was appalled myself, I considered leaving the C to go monastery. I was very confused, though, because I had never known C to go CRO ever to advocate violence. And I certainly did not see that in any of the monks. Our abbot here became aware of the controversy around this and was very upset that people were accusing Sita goose Yeto of, of promoting violence. And it's something I never heard from any of the monks here that would sound anything like this. So I was very, very confused about this. It was only a few months later, when I talked to Osaka that I found out what was what was behind this. See to go Seattle was delivering a standard sermon. That is, that is often many monks deliver the sermon. There's kind of the demand for among the military Buddhists to hear this particular story chapter 25 of the Baha Wangsa and so many monks will will talk about that, however that that a certain passage in there that I described is very, very controversial. The generals would like their soldiers to believe that the monks have basically refused traditionally refused to endorse those. Those particular particular passage. It's not a long passage, but it's in there in the text. So Burmese monks when they deliver a sermon, usually they have a Buddhist texts, they have it in memory, they cite it line by line and go through it. So we always go through these texts. Now this text has been used for a long time as a video of this text has been used for training soldiers for a long time. And what what was recorded in the video, it was recorded in Llosa, they gave me the details is recorded in 1989. So shortly after the 1988 uprising, and it was an interview between a major in the army and a very eminent monk who was also a mentor of Sega CEOs in his early days, named shin guard gambiarra. Bodie. And the the monk basically asks cumbia Bodhi questions About this text and keeps, keeps inquiring about this, and spends a lot of time about these, this controversial passage and going beyond a Bodhi stare. So this is the Arahant speaking to the king, and kind of excusing him for conducting adjust war against evil people. And so whenever the major asks God gambiarra, about this passage, cumbia would reply, he would say, the arhaan say that. I don't say that. So he would refuse to endorse what the arhats were supposed to have said. I think the reasoning why he didn't say that the arguments were wrong was because this is kind of a semi sacred text. And it's hard to talk about him. But he says, you know, that's odd said this, I do not endorse this. And so this is the way this text is traditionally presented by by monks in Myanmar, it's been presented hundreds and hundreds of times what coo coo did was not was not unique. And in fact, oh Siddha has delivered this text, ooh, oh seven, when he gets to that passage, he's always careful to explain. Keep in mind that this is not a Buddhist text. Is happens to be in the Pali language. But it's not a Buddhist text. It's not the words of the Buddha. It's not a commentary on the words of the Buddha. It's simply telling the history. And see to go see Otto doesn't go into that detail. But when you read the transcript of Sidhu said his talk he he says, he says exactly, he says, you know the arhaan Say, say this, but I do not say this, or HUD say this, but I do not say this. And actually, Matthew Walton, when he reported this, what he had seen, he pointed out that the CPP clo seems to be covering his his trail here because he keeps saying these things, and then denying them while he's actually delivering it in the accepted way. So this was not a attack that was meant to promote violence. And in fact, OSA to ask them about this, you know, why? Why would you give this talk. The when this thing was going on, hold matter. The genocide against the Rohingya and coo coo said he, you know, he's delivered this talk so many times, he wasn't even thinking about the Rohingya he was on the other side of, of Myanmar. So that's my understanding of what happened with us.
Host 1:23:18
Right. Thank you for that clarification. I think one question based on that would be so you have this situation where he has said something that other people don't have access to the context that you've just laid out? It's a really bad look, it's very controversial, it starts to spread internally and internationally as well and get commented on and criticized. And I think one really obvious question based on that, which would also, which would pre sage, the kinds of questions that we're getting now is, why did it sit to say it, I just make a brief statement that you shouldn't kill, killing is never justified within the Buddhist understanding of ethics. It doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter who you're killing, it doesn't matter what their background is, but you should not be killing this can never be justified, you can never escape the karma from doing this. If he if at any moment, he had just clarified it concretely and absolutely like that. I think that this would have made many people have were aware of where he stood and what he believed in and what he what he wouldn't tolerate. And yet, I'm not aware of any response like that, or any hard statement of stating something ethically very, very strongly and very powerfully. Why do you think he wasn't able to make a statement like that after this controversy developed and people were attributing other ideas to what the speech could mean?
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:24:52
That's a good question. I'm not you know, of course, I don't know if he what statements he has Maybe I should ask you. To clarify. One thing is when he gave this talk, of course, it was for a limited audience. The trouble is wherever see, to go, Seattle goes, there's always cameras rolling. So, so these things to do get out to a larger audience. It was a, basically a scripted talk. And so the, probably all of the soldiers that heard this talk before, given so, at that point, he could have said, you know, killing is wrong. The trouble is, you know, if you I always try to set myself in that situation, if I'm speaking to a group of American soldiers. And there's a war going on in a mock would I say to them, killing is wrong. It would be a very odd thing and kind of awkward thing to say, Hello, that's what I would think. That's what I would want to say. So I don't know the the full context of of that he may be reticent because he's, you know, has this deal with the generals, he leaves them alone. But it seems to me he could, you know, he could make more statements than he does. And then I criticize him for that.
Host 1:26:39
Yeah. And I guess I'm not thinking so much of what he would say to the soldiers in that moment, because I agree with you that would, there would be a very delicate way to speak like that about someone's profession, whatever it was, and what they were employed to do if you're talking to someone who ran a butcher shop, or caught fish, or whatever. My question was more to the people to clarify once, he realized that these words were potentially maybe actually being used to justify the kill that killing without karma of people who were not Buddhist, and we're ro Hinga, that with his platform at any time, at any moment, any way he could have chosen to say, No, this is not what I meant, I would not justify this, this should not be happening. But his silence really did indicate that he probably was complicit in this, that he this probably wasn't underlying meaning. And I think that this is what critics thought. And I think this is also what supporters thought that this was the role the silence was playing. So not so much in that speech to that crowd. But once the controversy spread, once he saw that his words could actually cause loss of life, that there would be ample opportunity, at a later point in another context to say, to clarify and set the record killing is wrong.
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:28:07
Yeah, yeah. Well, I would I would certainly agree with that. It's a little hard to, to guess, you know, I I'm not aware of there may be public statements that he he has made along those, those lines. That have just not been been reported. But you know, I don't think he's shown a lot of courage, as far as you know, even making mild statements or fitting things in into his talks. There may be things going on that I some there are things that are going on that I don't understand, including threats by the military, he certainly has conversations with the generals. And people may be telling them, you know, don't say any of this or that violates our agreement will shut you down. There may be threats going on that oh said oh, we'll also not know about I've talked to low set about that. You know, if he thinks that there's things going on behind the scenes, he kind of thinks there certainly are, but he doesn't know what they are. So I think I, you know, I don't think what you find in Buddhist texts, is really, you know, early Buddhist texts in the suttas. You'd never find any justification for killing. Even in self defense. There's just no, it's just not there. Violence is is just strictly prohibited. Of course, people will defend themselves in in self defense, but they have to go out of the Dharma to do that. In the case of monks, for instance, we have if a monk kills another person, or even causes somebody else to kill another person, it's a disrobing offense. It's one of the four pelagic, disrobing offense, they've disrobe on the spot, as soon as that person dies, who the who the monk is, death monk is responsible for, you know, if somebody attacks a monk and a monk hits him back and kills them, a monk is still committed that Pasha jika. So the early Buddhist texts are very, very careful about, you know, restricting violence. There's just no room for it. And so people, people understand this, the monks understand the project rule, that, that they can, if they incite somebody to violence, they can be subjected to disrobing.
Host 1:31:20
I think in the stories you're telling, I really appreciate the context and the background that you're giving. I'm, as I laid out in some of the statements from the listeners who express skepticism, with even this interview taking place, I want to speak to the skepticism they might have in listening to this and play a bit of devil's advocate, I can hear voices that are listening to this and that are responding and thinking, Oh, come on this great, this most powerful monk with this important role and background can't at one point, at one time after the speech or during the coup, say three words killing is wrong. This trip to Moscow that was that was so publicized that was with the number two general buying arms, the pictures were taken, come on, how could he not know what he was doing? How could he step into something like that the experience of the coup happening and of so many devout Burmese Buddhists that are having to make this terrible choice between laying down their precepts that they live by, or, or adopting some kind of armed resistance because they don't want a life of terror and subjugation, subjugation ahead, that sifu can't speak up and say something and speak to this and use his powerful influence and connection to these generals, and speak a word here they're to, to show the support of the people and is instead of doing that is seen going to a consecration and blessing ceremony of this Great Buddha image and in Naypyidaw. And so I think I, on one hand, I want to say I really appreciate I do appreciate this context and background you're giving, I'm learning tremendously about this. I'm reflecting on this. And I also want to acknowledge that we've gotten to a point where among the Burmese Buddhist population, the degree of skepticism of distrust, of frustration of hopelessness, that there there is simply not a generosity of spirit in wanting to believe or give the benefit of the doubt to any of these and and really feeling that they have been left behind and discarded by someone powerful that could do something for them and could speak for them and does not and it's just kind of one excuse after the other after the other. Which is well because of this reason or because of that reason. And is at worst is just someone who's not really correctly reading the situation. So I guess I want to present this to you because I think this will be a response of many listeners that are having in real time so to that response, how would you counter what would you say
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:34:13
so you know, I understand Understand, you know, every everything you're saying, I'm quite frustrated by it myself. One thing that's important is to keep a clear head. There's so much division and people want to create, you know, black and white they see, you know, who are the who are the friends and are the enemy. We see so much division in American politics where there's no middle ground, there's no there's no points. People don't look at complexities either. You're with us you're you're against us people are demonized. And I think given the the situation in Myanmar, people aren't going to think that way. People who empathize with the Burmese people tend to think that way. They will. You know, they don't look for subtleties. Why is somebody doing it like this? So I think that Sitagu Sayadw's position is very complicated. He's been navigating this is a balancing act, he's been that he's been involved in now for 40 years with the the generals, not to get out of favor with them. And yet to provide some benefit to the to the Burmese people, a level a lot of the monks do not are not able to make up a similar balancing act. Other monks that are directed towards public service, end up being shut down by the generals, the generals sometimes take over a monastic college they want to run. And so this is, you know, another instance, you know, him trying to keep a very delicate balance. I kind of question his judgment. He's 84 years old now. He's always been unusually sharp. You know, you can tell by his sense of humor, he understands my jokes even. And but you know, I think he's, he's wearing out. U Osadha thinks that he's also getting very bad information. There is the wider question of how much of the Sangha is supporting military. U Osadha actually estimates, it's probably about 30% of the Sangha. So this is a further issue. But he doesn't include Sitagu Sayadaw, another monk here. I asked him, how much how many, what per Sangha, he thinks, support the military, he says about 10%, which is figure I like better. The anyway, U Osada also says that some of the monks close to Sitagu Sayadaw, are pro military, named a couple that are monks that I know personally. And they take pro military positions, and he thinks that these monks are actually giving him distorted views of what's going on in, in Myanmar. So there is probably a information deficit from from his side, perhaps, very poor judgment. And perhaps factors that we just, we just don't understand. You know, what I don't see is him ever advocating violence, he does have some anti Muslim tendencies, which we can talk about, that I'm aware of, but they're not violent. And his behavior has indicated that
Host 1:38:50
what are they what are those anti Muslim tendencies, you noticed?
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:38:53
Well, he, he kind of, he does buy into the, the narrative that Buddhism is in danger over, you know, over a large historical span of time, that Buddhism has gradually been losing ground to Islam. Which is true. And, but that, that Islam is is kind of a danger to, to Buddhism. He also is somewhat of a, somewhat of a nationalist. We can talk about that too, because he's really not affiliated with mob thought or, or, you know, the extreme nationalist with it too, as he's often reported to be in, in the press. He does tend to think of Muslims as in Myanmar as as guests. In, in a in a Buddhist Berman country, you know where the Bourbons? Are they defining culture and in Buddhism is a defining religion of that culture. So he does he does kind of buy into into the narrative. And I understand from people that have followed his speech not in Burmese that talks in Burmese there's a lot more anti Muslim language than when he talks in English. It's it's something comparable it's it's it's not advocating involved. But it's, it's like what you find in America, I know a lot of people that are very well educated people. When you start talking about Islam, and they say, oh, Islam, of religion of violence, they they read Sam Harris, or Richard Spencer, and pick up all of the ideas. And, and ctcl kind of belongs to that crowd. But these people don't advocate the advocate violence. You know, some of them, will they support wars, we've got going, or that we did going against Muslim populations. And so in a sense, they maybe, maybe it's part of the degree of violence. But but I've never noticed it and don't seem to go Seattle, he certainly does teach these things to his boss. So as disciples are largely protesters against the coup, they a big protest. And when it was that, left is the main monastery in Sagaing hills, and just a parade of monks that left and took to the streets. Since the and he he does not restrict the politics of, of any of his disciples at all, or discuss it. He considers himself to be non says I don't do politics.
Host 1:42:22
Yeah, what you said just now it kind of reminds me about like, that older uncle that says those things at the Thanksgiving table that just kind of make everyone cringe and feel uncomfortable. And, you know, he has those views. And of course, the big difference is that Siddiq who say it does not the older uncle at the table, he's the most powerful monk in Myanmar and someone who has the ear of the top generals.
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:42:44
I agree with that completely. AI is a source of press. Let's see to go to Seattle is that is that Uncle at table. I should mention, though, that he has been a lot of work, including founding hospitals in Muslim communities. So he's the Muslim population in his in his projects, and rightly has brought a lot of bent. So it's not like he has a very strict prejudice that he humanizes Muslims, he sees them as, as people, but he, he has a distrust for his.
Host 1:43:26
Yeah, people can be complicated. And there could be the definitely in our own lives, we can think of people that have some kind of progressive and humane values towards others. But then when it's behind closed doors, even with what they're doing, they're just, there's these statements from an older generation that just kind of make you cringe of like, Oh, don't you know, I'm glad you're saying that away from everyone else I know. But I really wish you weren't saying that at all. That kind of thing. Of course, mentioned the stakes are just so much higher with him, given how important he is. And
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:43:59
it means he has responsibility to keep informed to to, you know, hear about what he's talking about. Yes. Right. Exactly. Me. Yeah. Yes, it's very common Myanma. Although there is apparently much more, again, among the Ghana police populations since the coup, for the plight of the Rohita in other other minority relations.
Host 1:44:35
You mentioned before this delicate balance that he's trying to tread that he is trying to do all of these incredible humanitarian projects that he has single handedly brought to fruition over the course of his career and that you laid out how he made something of a devil's bargain to come back to Myanmar and not be involved in politics, whatever that means, since the military controls everything, everything and kind of becomes politics. But in any regard that he's able to, to try to navigate what he sees as being able to run these humanitarian programs and not step on or criticize what the military is doing, and even when it's egregious human rights. Along with that, there, I also wonder how much he buys into this idea of the tomahawk protecting Buddhism that, that Buddhism is somehow under threat, whether it's of Muslims, or Westerners or modernization or a good economy, or freedom or democracy, or whatever it is, that somehow the tatmadaw is fulfilling its self proclaimed purpose of preserving traditional Burmese Buddhist values. And so whatever else it's doing is unfortunate. But that part of this Devil's bargain is that these traditional lay Sangha relationships get to remain as is. And however, that scene there is this, this delicate balance of what, what he's able to do what he might want to do, where the risk is one way or the other. And let's be real here, the there's a risk and whatever he does, whatever whatever action he chooses to do or not to, there is going to be an immense risk in that. And so I'm wondering if you were to put yourself in his shoes, or if you were to be able to advise him and suggest a course forward knowing that there are no easy answers, there are no easy solutions, the stakes are as high as they have ever been probably in any of our lifetimes, in Myanmar, at least, that and that he is one of the most important people in this entire conflict in terms of what he decides to do or not to recognizing how difficult the conditions are, what would you like to see him do? What would you like to advise him to
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:46:51
do? I, I told my advice that and said he should pass it on to see because Seattle and that is leave the country and take a very strict anti coup and Metairie makes some very strong clear statements against the military against the coup. I think at this point, he would clarify saying all of his social service programs, it would be uncertain, and they happen to them. A lot of people that are employees, programs may suffer. But the population of Myanmar is sacrificing so much, right, since the coup, yeah. Everybody's giving up things. And I hear a lot of stories, almost all of the Burmese and America are refugees from military reality. So you hear from the communities here that the suffer tives as well as what they went through in previous decades. People are giving up such they're giving up their health, because code because of the disruption. It's it's just rapid, people are dying all over the place from code. People are giving up their livelihoods, their safety, they're running into the villages. But they're very determined, and they're going to stick it out. I think the opposition, my estimation is, you know, I'm not an expert in these things, I would guess that the opposition is going to prevail. It may take a long time, unless all the Burmese people I talked to say who's going to win this, they always say the you know, the opposition militaries are going to be out of there, because people are so determined. And for the opposition is also getting violent. And, you know, I I think it is turning into civil war type condition.
Host 1:49:27
Right, and that's all the more space that he could step into unequivocally about what his position could be and how, you know, I think that in my we talked about this month ago, before this interview or our views on this, I think that the first few months of the protests, there really was a call among lay people for Where are Buddhist guides, where are our monastic figures, and this especially the case because 2007 was so much led by And because there's this counterintuitive thing whereby renouncing a society and renouncing everything in society can offer you, you actually somehow have greater standing in that society as long as you act in that appropriate role. And so monks do have this spiritual moral ethical power and ability to shape things that ordinary people do not just by the livelihood that they've chosen. And over those first few months, I think we saw a lot of, especially the younger generation looking towards those months to see what the response would be. And there was a range a cycle of emotions that went from feeling hopeful, to confused to disappointed to angry, and then to just irrelevant, just to I've got to move on with my life. And I had these conversations with many people that they were, they were too at risk, they were too hairy. They were, they were too there, they were too scared about how to survive and what needed to be done. And there was so much to figure out that they had just come to a kind of calm acceptance that these monks are worthless right now they are not relevant in the struggle, we're having they the one time when we need to have them voice for us and speak for us. They're silent, and it was a move beyond anger, to just irrelevance to just this is the we'll figure this out later. But for now, these are non entities. And when I saw that happen, it really made me wonder about the fault lines that would be drawn from this, regardless of how it turns out how you would go back to that relationship, once you started to move in a direction of realizing that they're, they're not playing a role in your life when you need them the most to be able to do or say something. And I think that, that if there's this argument to be made, that somehow the automaton is protecting Buddhism, this kind of fiction that they're planning, I think it's really plain to see that right. Even if the Tom and I were to win, there's no, I think there's very little Buddhism to protect there among the younger generation, because this is drawing a gap and a cleavage between what they see as the role of the monks and what they want in their lives. And I think if a if any monk, and especially a monk as high as Sitta goo were to within their monk's roles, because obviously they're with video, there's things that most can and can't do. And no one is advocating for someone to say they're a monk and then lead a revolution, because that's not appropriate, but within their monastic roles and discipline, for a monk to be able to speak unequivocally towards moral rights and wrongs and, and show their value to this current moment, I think they would really just become the Darlene and the hero and be loved for the moral courage they're showing, and those few months that have shown that moral courage have stepped into that role. But I think by playing it safe and conservative, there's not going to be much left to save no matter how things turn out.
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:53:15
Yeah, it's very unfortunate. And of course, he goes Seattle in 1988 was one of those monks that stepped forward Shoda showed a lot of courage. Right? He's a course is, you know, has more at stake now, because of the size of his projects. He's much more famous now. Which means he'll be shut down within hours, probably if he if he makes too courageous. And that's why, you know, I think he should leave the country and, and make these I think you make a good point that because things are turning towards civil war, where there's violence on both sides, you now have people in the center actually physically attacking military families, relatives of soldiers so that they relocate them into the army bases in many places. You have people setting off bonds, now blowing up their suicide bombers that just walk into a group of soldiers and blow themselves up that this be very protracted and at some point, it is turning to civil war. Somebody has to step forward and say this enough is it's time for reconciliation. One you know now we have to stop once. But the violence can go on continue for a long time if you do not have that moral authority, that and and it's a role she could play. And I think he could play a well, if you didn't lose his entire reputation before then
Host 1:55:23
you mentioned that, who also also knows me online personally, and doesn't think highly of him? Can you share more what his interactions and his evaluation is?
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:55:35
Yeah, well, this is this is one of the you know, this is part of the Gaussian bargain, I think, with the monks and the generals. The generals are very generous donors to the Sangha, just as in was before. And, and so the the general, Mian Lang is actually been a donor to some of most of his projects. I understand his main connection is with his with the generals wife. But But he, you know, the Osprey, if he's working on a project and needs some more funding, he will, you know, phone from the general lot, what his attitude is, since this, since the coup is no more money from the generals is turning his bowl upside down, essentially. And he would like to see see that you see how to do that too. But so far see, because CFO has not?
Host 1:56:45
Has he reached out to the general and at least tried to speak to him and advise him?
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:56:51
Oh, probably not. I, you know, I don't know at this time, it would be, it seems kind of futile. So you know, there's a certain I really don't know if he remains in Myanmar, there's not much he can do. He can kind of go in his speeches kind of lean one way. But if he goes or he'll be shut down. And you know, maybe that's worth the cost, but it means he loses his voice immediately. Nobody will hear from him again.
Host 1:57:28
Great. As I mentioned before, I surveyed my audience, letting them know that we'd be having this conversation and there's a few questions that have come up that I'd like to ask on, listeners behalf. So one will start off with a simple question. That is probably not a simple answer. What is said to goo setas views on democracy
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:57:51
think he's always been pro democracy. That's my my impression. Since 1988, he's been he's been seeing I haven't heard him talk specifically about democracy. Again, he doesn't do politics. So in the election, in 2015, that brought brought Aung San Su Qi to power. Both sides during the election, both the military party and the National League for Chrissi Aung San su cheese party, were wooing him to try to get some endorsement, some involvement, he refused, he would not take sides, he wouldn't he? He does teach monks that they should not get involved in partisan politics, which is something I I agree with. I always adhere to it myself. But But I think there is a risk for monks to get involved in, in partisan politics, because you lose track of the of the middle way when you do that, but But anyway, that's that's his philosophy. Don't monks do not get involved in, in politics. They are a moral voice. I think he agrees with that. But but it's it's difficult to be a moral voice in in a sea.
Host 1:59:29
So another question is, do you think that the monastic education and lifestyle in Myanmar equips monks with the tools to be able to deal and give guidance towards the political situation that has been occurring in Myanmar over the last six decades?
Bhikkhu Cintita 1:59:45
No. I don't think so. One of the things I believe, monks although they should involved in partisan politics to be a moral voice you have and how the economy Work society works, or at least try to understand very few people stand. I think education deficit monastic education focuses on learning scriptures. And but monks, you know, in the West, clergy are part of the intelligentsia, people are expect them to be educated and know how the world works. Know that a lot of things. I think Seaton gustado, does promote education in these areas of understanding science and society and economics. He is all for promoting western style education, but it's at a very primitive level now in Myanmar. So people in general are very confused, of course, people in the United States or as well,
Host 2:00:57
right. Yeah. But definitely there are those in the country that are calling on have been calling for some time on monastic reform, and especially as modernity comes to me and Maher and trying to find a way to make the monastic structure continue to be relevant and practical and applicable, applicable even when the times around them are changing.
Bhikkhu Cintita 2:01:21
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I think he goes Seattle is, is very important in that area, because he has a great respect for Western education. He does not have a Western education himself, in a lot of ways he's talking called Dr. Dr. nista. Because he has a lot of honorary several honorary PhDs, but he's never actually earned a, a college degree at a, you know, Western style university education or the kind of education you can get in, in China, or India or Japan. And so in a lot of ways, he's, he's, I think he's very, very naive. And there are a lot of things he does not understand.
Host 2:02:15
And so the next question is, and I should reference that I'm going to read these questions exactly as they came, some of them you might debate with the assumptions in the question, and you can feel free to do that, but I am, and some of them come from a place of very high emotion as you can imagine, but I'm, I'm just going to read them as they appear. How does Citigo say it or reconcile the most essential aspects of the Dhamma that being wisdom, compassion, non harming, and indeed, something that's on Route in Burma Burmese passionate, with the say it as overt and tacit support for the genocidal junta and violent Tomba?
Bhikkhu Cintita 2:02:56
He does not support him. So I you know, I think the the assumption is, is wrong. I see no statements of his advocating violence. I see very unskillful statements, statements that can be misleading and can be dangerous when when others take them seriously. But I see no avert endorsement or supportive violence.
Host 2:03:37
Right. And I think at this time, what that's indicating is that there is a messaging problem, then if that's the case, because if you were to ask most Burmese Buddhists today, where Citigo stood, and if you were to ask a non Burmese or a non Buddhists, that was there would even be more. So overwhelmingly, the view is that he is very aware of what he's doing. And he has very clearly shown us support to one side. And that is a view that is becoming more and more entrenched. And that is also why an interview like this is so important, because it's trying to provide this nuance. It's trying to provide this greater context and discussion. So it's not these easy blanket characterizations. But I think that that is something that is very much taken root. And I think that as I mentioned before about the 2017 speech, the fact that on in so many of these cases in Moscow, the Naypyidaw statue, the killings, etc, that his silence has shown a complicitous it has been read by both sides to be complicit. And so that view has been further held and entrenched among the people. So I guess the follow up question to that would be is how, how does this Get brokered, how does how is Citigroup able to correct the record? Or if he's not able to correct the record? Then? How should the people or should the people at all begin to respond differently or feel differently?
Bhikkhu Cintita 2:05:17
Yeah, so, you know, reliable information is very hard to get. And you have a lot of people that have, you know, believe something to be the case, when it's not look at Americans believe that Obama was a Muslim and not born in the United States. The, the part of that is the fault of the news media, part of it is his interpretation. When when you allow the girls to have photo ops with you over and over again, you will give the impression that you're in what they're doing, that you're allied with, with them. See, because teardrops to smile for the camera with all kinds of default. But I think they, I think the generals had been successful in, in manipulating these to get these photo ops. And he's been, you know, very naive, stubborn, uninformed of, you know, unclear about exactly what's going on. But I but I know from, you know, tight, not spending a lot of time myself with him, but his disciples and, and familiar already with life and, and his his works and his attitudes about about many things that he is, I see no indication that he's ever advocates violence. So he gives an impression, but this is, you know, this is when you're in a, in a position in a prominent position that it's hard to control the public perception, this is why pins are so scripted there. have advised them don't say this. You know, if somebody asked about this, tell him this. And, and he's not he's not that, that scripted. I think. You know, aren't en Su Qi might be a parallel case. She basically has also has a pact with the devil, or did until the coup. She had to work in close cooperation with the generals the way she you know, in a different sphere. Because it was the only chance of evolve the more complete democracy. And so she ends up getting blamed for a lot of the things that the generals did, like the whole road or Rohingya thing. I don't know to what extent she might have been complicit, but I think that probably, her situation is similar to see to CROs that she has to be very careful, because they they could have I mean, before the coup, they could put her out of business very quickly, which they did.
Host 2:08:46
Yeah. And that actually leads to the next question that someone asked to this is that many Buddhist nationals embrace the military after the 2013 riots in Rakhine State. I regard city Crusader as one of them. Do you consider that correct?
Bhikkhu Cintita 2:09:04
No. One One incident probably says says something about this. In 2012 there was a lot of violence in the Rohingya Rakhine State. And it was it was triggered by the the rape and murder of a Rakhine woman. So the recliner herbs, they're not. They're not Berman's, they speak in language. They are an ethnic group that has had a lot of tension themselves with the central government, Myanmar and with the military. Traditionally, most of the violence that has happened before the Military genocide was was between the Rakhine people and the and the Rohingya. So when in 2012, this flared up and there, there were riots all over the Rakhine State. And it happened that that cbdc Edo actually was part of a interfaith meeting with is called the conference on interfaith security and coexistence. I wrote down the name of it. It was actually convened by a Muslim imam from the Islamic Center of Robert but held that the CETA Gu, and isteri, where they had meeting space students often involved in in interfaith work, which is a little perplexing, because he, he does have this kind of undercurrent of anti Muslim feeling or distrust against Islam. But his efforts have always been oriented toward toward peace, maintaining the peace at all costs. So during this conference, which is in was in 2013, there was a October and there was a flare up of the nation in Rakhine and, and so the EMA and coo coo agreed to travel there together and, and travel around and address the populations go from village to village to Rakhine villages to Muslim villages and, and talk about peace and reconciliation. And so this is the kind of effort he would make. There was one village that had violence was the common Muslims, which are a recognized ethnic group in Myanmar, unlike the Rohingya there, and they're separate from the Rohingya. But they're often mistaken from the Rohingya. And so they, their village was attacked by by recruiting people. And so that's one of the villages they did. And one of the things in that village, the the city gustado promised to that he would raise funds to build them a school and a health clinic. And or a hospital was really our clinic, but we would call clinics and any any follow through on the on the promise. So his his efforts have have been, you know, even though he looks at Muslims as kind of a superior this, his his efforts have been, you know, for their welfare and for for maintaining peace. So I know of no statements about the Rohingya situation, I should ask who Osaka what, what he has said, but I think he's largely remained quiet, which is unfortunate, but maybe a necessity.
Host 2:13:48
Yeah, I think it's that quiet combined with some of the tacit what seems as tacit approval or support with the as you call them photo ops the going to consecration and blessing ceremonies at the wrong time in the wrong place with the wrong people and, and being seen accepting donations from others. I think that it's that all of this give this combined with an almost complete silence on the other side, certainly gives the impression and the feeling among many that has now really taken root and become something of a of a fact and an understanding from many people now, that his real feelings and sympathy for whatever reason that's that's debated, but for whatever reason, they they do lie with the military. And I think that's a very widespread belief now.
Bhikkhu Cintita 2:14:44
I realize it is and I but I don't think it's right.
Host 2:14:49
On the other side. Now, another question is, what is his reaction to the criticism that has been targeted towards him? Does criticism from pro democracy activists shifted stance even more towards the military? Or is there some openness or consideration?
Bhikkhu Cintita 2:15:05
You know, this is, you know, in my discussions with hosts of almost everything goes through most of his channel. But I think he does not really recognize, you know, what's going on? I don't getting feedback about it. And there seems to be a dearth of of information on his part, because he doesn't. It also does seem seems, as I said, Who else it seems to have convinced him that there's a problem here that there's a problem of public perception. And he seems to have taken it to heart. But he, he refused to listen to most of it for a long time. Which is very unfortunate.
Host 2:15:57
Is there any appeal to him that you think could be effective?
Bhikkhu Cintita 2:16:03
You know, if I can't make it, I don't think anybody can, he thinks very, very highly of who Osaka. They're very close. And there are some other other monks like that. But as I say, some of his disciples are actually pro military. This happens usually, if somebody is in Attari family. So some monks belong to military families, and military families get special perks. This is one of the ways that the military ensures loyalty of the loyalty of the soldiers. They get. They get, actually, I think, handouts like rice distributions and things, but also priority and hiring for women jobs. And that, and so some socks do belong to military fans and tend to have a pro military position. Most Burmese seem to get their news through Facebook. And we all know what Facebook does. It, it blocks up news that you, you don't hear the news that you disagree with, you hear more and more, it becomes an echo chamber. You hear your own views repeated back at you. And I know CQC Gatto doesn't use Facebook because he's rather computer illiterate. But he, but those around him do some of his monks and some of his pro military monks. So I think he is in kind of a bubble that is not, you know, the whole situation is not getting through.
Host 2:17:57
Right. Right. So the last question I have for you, I think, I've asked this to you already in a different form. But I want to ask it in these words. It's quite emotional. It's quite direct. And I also want to ask it again, because it is kind of the final summation of this talk of the final evaluation, everything up to this point, we then get to the so what, what what can happen, what could happen? So if there's anything you want to add or expand to the the way this was asked before? In any case, here's the question. Presumably as cynical say it as biographer and former resident monk under his tutelage in Burma, you know, the venerable, say it as well as any Westerner in the world. As we entered the ninth month of this horrific military coup in Burma, commandeered by the rogue terrorists gentlemen online. If you were sitting face to face with Sidhu say it and he asked you, please what is your most honest advice to me to do my part as Myanmar's most prominent Bhiku to end me downlines Reign of Terror, murdering, torturing and raping the population and as in his unbridled attempt to destroy the people's desire for freedom and democracy? I asked you to be frank, bold, and most of all, give me the gift of your uncensored honesty. I want to know your most heartfelt truth. And moreover, I want to do what is best for the people of my country, not what's best for the military and online, but for the people give it to me straight
Bhikkhu Cintita 2:19:31
Well, I agree with all the presuppositions of that of that question. And again, I I think ceding Luciana a very delicate position, but my my own feeling is that since the Myanmar are sacrificing so much to oppose this coo coo coo should as well I think probably as I actually said before, the best recommendation I could give them would be to leave the country and stand outside of the country. He could come here to Austin to live. And he there many other places throughout the world, England, but that he should take a bold sign. And I think this is really his moment. Unfortunately, I, I don't think he recognizes that.
Host 2:20:50
Tom, thank you so much for this time spent with us. And before we close, is there anything else you want to say to what will probably be a very robust audience around the world? Listen to this.
Bhikkhu Cintita 2:21:01
Okay, so I guess my, my point, what I'm what I'm contributing to this discussion is a sense of how nuanced and complex this situation is. I think public perceptions are often wrong. And especially world where everything was post everything is as black and white. CV cuscinetto is, I think, as stood up for some very powerful principles consistently throughout his career. He's aging. He's in a situation that I, I, I'm guessing he does not fully understand. And no, he's not dealing with it very skillfully, but I think his art in the right place. And so I hope people will listen to this and try to understand the nuances. It's really not, not black and white. I think through history, you'll see a lot of instances like like this, you have to ask what, what the churches did in Europe during World War Two to oppose the Nazis. And people are disappointed that they did not do a lot. But you have to ask what, what what could they did? What could they do? How of that that would? How would that have played out? What are the factors involved? So I don't understand CDU CRO, completely myself, I do have the luxury of a bit of insight, or the privilege of some insight into what's going on in the inner circle. I don't have any stake in endorsing him or or not, I would like to see. You know, I do not want him to be misrepresented. Certainly, if he is a gentle sight, genocidal monk, as people call him. I would want to understand that and they'll condemn him as much as anybody else. But, but I don't see that in in see because Seattle.
Host 2:23:31
Well, thank you for your comments. Thank you for taking this time. It's you added incredibly valuable input for the discussion. I think we all have a lot to reflect on. And I am looking forward to seeing where that reflection goes among myself and among listeners, and seeing this as the beginning hopefully the beginning of a conversation where we can continue to explore and that hopefully some benefit can be found through this kind of difficult consideration.
Bhikkhu Cintita 2:24:07
Yeah, well thank you for for inviting me and thank you for providing this platform and for all of all that you do Joe and I hope this leads to some some thinking if people have comments No, no hate mail leak. We got a good concerning CV, Luciana. But, you know, constructive conversation. If anybody thinks I've misunderstood something and has better information, then please let me know or listen to it has been, as they say, I've been on both sides of this i i Once was convinced that the whole Rohingya sermon was, was accurately interpreted and until I learned otherwise, and was ready to condemn see to use to myself. But it's a very, very difficult time I realized emotions are very high. They're very high. I see it in the Burmese community all the time. And but we need to keep cool heads and think through this rationally and carefully.
Host 2:25:39
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