Transcript: Episode #85: The Fabric of Change: Feminism, Art, and Revolution
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Chuu Wai, which appeared on January 11, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:03
Go to Chico, trivia API and core logic. You're listening to a special version of the Insight Myanmar podcast covering the military coup and the ensuing protest movement that has developed during this crisis. we're ramping up the production of not only podcast episodes, but also our blog and other social media platforms. So we invite you to check these out as well. All the other projects that had been in progress prior to February, have since been paused indefinitely, to focus entirely on this emergency. But for now, let's get into our show. I'm really excited about the upcoming interview with the artists to win game. For those that find the topic she'll be discussing of interest. And we'd like to hear more. I have some good news. Next Tuesday, January 18. Chu will be a panelist in a virtual discussion organised by the International Republican Institute, a nonprofit NGO headquartered in Washington DC that promotes Democratic Institutions and Values around the world. She'll be joined by Omid Sharifi and Afghan curator and co founder of art Lourdes, and mu Bashir Hassan, a Bangladeshi researcher who studies the politics of hip hop and rock and roll in Bangladesh to homemade, and mu Bashir will be exploring the intersection of art, politics and social change and their respective countries. The event will take place from three to 4:30pm Eastern Standard Time, you can sign up for the virtual panel by following the Eventbrite link in the show notes we encourage all listeners to consider joining the dialogue but for now enjoy our own interview with
Chuu 01:57
you a look at the A Good Day My name is Julian, and I'm from Jamar and I live as an artist and most physically, I made a painting and I came from a really traditional background. So I most of my outward started painting the beauty of Newmar and also the culture and the mayor, the culture, traditional business you can all always see in my painting. And after this I started to create about a series of women portrayed after I have the experience of a sexual harassment on the street when I was 18 year old and started from that time I was focused on the daily life of women and equal saturation of women. And also how the way the society and then the culture or traditional health the way the they shape women and the way they train women so and since that time, I make the a portrait or for a series or women's and my hours are feminists and and from this series after the coup d'etat. I I'm I make the hour about the revolution, especially the what the voices of the people during the protests and with the handwriting that I collected during the protests and I created hours based on this handwriting and the letter. And he has for right now I always keep i Right now I'm combining this to idea, my the way, my base creations what from the powers of women, the way we the way we ace it in the event surrounded by the culture and tradition. After this, I the coup d'etat happened in my life and is really a big impact in my lives. I've so so I cannot forget thing that I started what I created as some women's. And at the same time the coup d'etat, that is the thing that I'm thinking right now, every day since I woke up today asleep, even sometimes in the dream. So now, so when I combined this to is, sometime I make the hour about how we mount the involve during the protests and during the revolution, and how, and also kind of the culture and traditional and also the outward sometimes how the Emperor during the protests to, to, to fight for what we believe.
Brad 05:44
Excellent. So there's quite a lot there. So I want to sort of go go on a bit of a journey. No, no, no, no, that was good. No, I just want to go on a bit of a journey here. So we'll, we'll cover things in order. So you went to university in 2008, in Mandalay, and you studied, you studied as much art as you were able to get your hands on. But you mentioned that the art that you were exposed to in the art that was being taught as correct or fine, or high standard art, was this sort of the realism painting that that we've seen, of, you know, previous centuries and that we still see but but not so much the abstract art not so much impressionist, art, contemporary, postmodern, just this focus on realistically portraying what you see. Would you say? That's correct? Yeah, so what do you what do you think that? Does this culture of elevating realist art? Do you think that is harmful to the artistic community and the artistic development of young artists in Myanmar? Or do you think it has value to learn realism first, and then branch out?
Chuu 07:05
Me I learn from the basic one, I started to learn art, and I was outside from the art community, I'm I'm the only one who interested in art in my family, and also in my relative, there is no generation who interested in art or who wants to live as an artist in my, in my, in my family, so and also I don't have connection and who show me the way who gives me the guideline to learn art. So what I did, it's an outside of the society and, and when I started, so I really want to be in this society inside the Art Society, because I want to know, the artists I want to know the the, the art the art teacher from the university. So when I started, I learned myself with the through the book and through the through the through the video through the kind of for a private teacher but when I know a people from the Art Society from the art world especially for Mandalay, I don't really feel I was one of them. And and sometimes people criticize you yet maybe you're not enough to be an artist or maybe you're not enough to be part of this exhibition because you don't have the basis. So, these are the beginning of at the beginning when I started to interested in art and when I started to live as an artist I have feelings most of the time so I said okay, if I want to be one of them, if I want to be in this community I have to learn I have to start from the basics. So when I so after that I took the the private art school in Mandalay and for four years during my my engineering university and four years so I started from the business and then and and then I finish all the the causes exactly the same as the from the Art University or art school. What they teach on because the teacher is also he used to work at University and an offer that I'm still one of them I became one of them you know, I paint a fine art I make the landscape I made a beautiful, beautiful account of realism art. And then and then I want I don't want to stop only just because I can paint us as as the same as the photo I can paint as the thing as realistic and I feel I don't see. Right I don't see it. This is me so I wanted to to go farther than that. So I check the contemporary R, I check the Model R, I check the other side of the painting, they accept their the RE or the, the RE or the kind of realistic painting. And then when I started to create it, the people in the art community, I don't really know about in Yangon, but this is my experience from the Mandalay site. So in the the Mandalay, they asked community people told me and that, yeah, maybe you can be out of the community. And again, because sometimes it's so the community is so tight, and what they believe is so tight. And, and, and also we are this the city or from the last kingdom. And so the, the keeping the traditional and keeping the, what they believe as a culture and also is a really conservative, and both in the daily life and also in the art community. So, so people remind me that, yeah, maybe you will be out of the community. Again, maybe the people, they don't accept your accrue a new creation, most of the time, they couldn't make it a minute late. But it is possible if you move to Yangon, and you make a new changes there. So But anyway, I, my teacher, he said he was a really good teacher, he, he was the the first one who gave me the light and, and he also had the same step at me. And at some point, he was out of the Mandalay art community a little bit because he introduced a lot of modern artwork. Some some time he did the performance capture and the gun, the contemporary style of the sculpture. So she also remind me, but anyway, it gave me the idea to start it. But the most difficult thing is, you want to change your style from the traditional to the another style, maybe something to describe you. But the problem is how you don't because we don't really have a school, we don't have a university or a teacher, or a private school, just only to describe it, because we have a school or a teacher to teach the visit thing, but not for to, to show the way. How to, to farther than that. So in Myanmar, especially for Mandalay, if you want to go farther than the realistic style of painting, you have to learn yourself, you have to, to read the book, or you have to meet a lot of artists and people and little by little, and it's take really long sometime just within this project, you can get lost. So I get lost for a couple of years. Sooner for sure. And then I couldn't find myself. And I couldn't know what is the father's creation of then the realistic so the MDM I made it when I make it it is more unique. It is more I have to say I feel it's more meaningful than that you doing all the things? So I think it's, for me, I think it's important learning the missing because when I have the idea when I want to give the one message just because I already finished all the business, the technique, I know what technique that I want to keep, and I know what technique that I want to use in my painting, or in my artwork, and I can leave it and it can the skill and the technique and support the message that I want to give. So for me, I think it's I think it's really difficult, Johnny, but I think at the end is as a beautiful ending, I have to say.
Brad 13:59
And I think that's a very touching story. I want to focus on one element of it though. So you you moved from Mandalay to Yangon. And partially This is because the Mandalay art community, you describe as quite conservative, they're they're maintaining these traditions. They're maintaining, you know, as you pointed out, it's it's the last monarchy that still has that legacy there. And you move to Yangon, where new types of Otter are a little bit more accepted. Now, I wonder Do you find that that is true socially as well? Do you find that Yangon is more open to social change and to critically analyzing its its beliefs and its customs than Mandalay is or is this just for the art world?
Chuu 14:48
And also for the society? I think the same and young goal because you know when you talk about the revolution, the one you want to change something and most of the The organization the people and also the society everyone who making the first move, most of them are based in Yangon. So, sometime I'm I sold a couple of articles and a couple of interview and then the videos, most of them are really happening actively in Yangon and also in the society and everything whatever changes and in Yangon, so, sometime these movements, they don't fit in the other part of Myanmar. So, one movement and some idea we can say yes, this is we're changing this is happening, but in Yangon, but the rest of the country is is not matching this not changing, it is still really a closed and because I I, I tell you this because I was born, I was born in chan state really a small town and I still go back this town to go and visit my my cousin and my grandparents. So every years almost every year. So I can see the way the way people think in this small village in this region. And then I live in Mandalay and in the people, Mandalay is the second biggest city in Myanmar and even the second biggest cities in Myanmar and the way they think the way they behave in the society is not the same in young and and yes. And still young need to we all know that younger need to more developed in the society we have so many rules, so many things to to deadblow to upgrade and also to change the mindset of the people. So imagine how the rest of the country the way they think to just to change one idea and just to change to change one thing is so difficult and so tight and and Myanmar is not representing only the angle. So when we talk about Myanmar sometime we have to talk young and also the rest of the country. This is something I say that way.
Brad 17:27
Okay, I can I can definitely understand that. So let's let's be a little bit more specific here because a lot of your art deals with women in society, the roles of women in society. And your your portrayals of women are quite subversive, I mean, first of all, your your palette, is is vibrant. You've got very striking colors, these strong pinks, these very deep purples, the contrast between these very strong, you know, reds and greens and blues. So you have a very striking way of presenting an image. But you also portray women within your art in, let's say, 100, unconventional or non traditional ways. Even when the women are close the clothes do accentuate the female features you accentuate the breasts, for example, and very many of the of the women that you portray, are partially unclothed, which is not something that we would see in traditional Burmese art. So can you talk to us specifically about your artistic portrayal of women, and why that's so important to you?
Chuu 18:44
I, as I told you, I started to painting the landscape and the beauty of the the EMR and, and after that, swamp things happen in my life. So when I was 18, when I was living in Mandalay, my sister she came to visit to me to visit the big city and to to visit to meet. And then we went to 930 in the morning for the breakfast and one guy came and grabbed my sister bread and he drove away. And my sister she was crying and everything that she was holding in her hand dropped on the floor, and, and then she was she cries early, and then she told me and then I was I was shocked. Yes. Why did she cry suddenly? And then she told me yes, this man did this to me. And then I was, I was Andrew angry, and suddenly, spontaneously, I made the decision to chase him with my motorbike. And so I told my sister, hold me tight, close your wide, and then I follow him and then suddenly when he was planning to move one corner of the road, and I close my eyes, and I hit him, to catch him And he has a lot of blood and a lot of crash has happened and after that I think this moment wake me up to focus on the daily life of the normal women on the street. Because I thought it's happened to me and my sister because we were unlucky but actually, it's not true. And, and I when I talk about this to my friends and the friends from the university, and then the front for my hostel, and when I talk about it, I was shocked because they all have a similar story as me not the same story but a similar story but the also keeping a silent so so that made me why we all have the similar problems and why we cannot see in the daily life why we cannot hear these stories. And not because it happening and though and we are hiding it is really happening in our life. So that made me remind the life and the society the way they shape, the way the train how should think how we should behave. Because in our society if you're womens and even the kind of insult incitement on the street, you have to be a keep quiet and keep neglect and it's worth finish as we're gone. This is how we were taught by our parents and from our teacher from the school. So this is not true. This is happening everyday just because we necklet it is what disappears, not true. It's not disappear. is really really everyday so when we don't even feel safe. When I talk to the girl we don't feel safe to go to the festival to call in the crowd. Or at night. We only feel like maybe at some point someone will come and touch us you know in the crowd, like just a random guy just touch and disappear on the crowd is happening a lot. So like instead of we enjoying the our life enjoying the festival we have to take care yeah you know like at some point someone will come and do something to us. So in Myanmar in the tradition when you go to the festival, you go there with a lot of friends especially surrounded by a male around you sometimes the brother your cousin the maze they surrounded by, by the by the the girls and then the girl should be in the the inside the cycle of the old father your brother when they are surrounded as a shield. So and did it just a small thing but it's still a lot a lot. And the way they think the way we think the way how the man would think to protect the girl and the girl have to be you know so many ways. One we just start to think about throwing the thing. So when I'm started to think about I really want to make these messages, I really want to tell this to my my painting so when I stopped thinking about it how that I want to paint as a women Okay, it's good that I will paint about the women with this message but when I want to give message I want to give the properly and bravely speak of what happened to you instead of hiding it. Or neglecting it. Real Thing The bad thing that something that insecure thing that that happen in the life of the women. So in also the my painting also the speak out and plus I want to tell just be the women that existing of the women so we're we are strong we can take care of ourselves sometimes we are brave and proud of being who we are. As we are so in in my painting I want to give this messages so that's why I made the some time really strong women in my painting they're not really smiling but they are faced a little bit smile but kind of the a proud smile and maybe their their body is a topless sometime they open their legs so wide like like a man's bread or n and the Carlos is so bright like these women were dominate the audience of the people who watch this a painting and he has a bringing proud of who they are. Because in Myanmar just because you were born as a girl, and since you were born as a girl, everyone's around including your mom, including your society make you think that you're a dirty a creator. We can see this really a strong example is the laundry, the skirt, the long skirt and Mr traditional thing that we cannot wash together with the man clothes, and after we wash it, we have to hang it, the lower line at the back of the house hiding like we're a dirty things, you know, like a dirty insert and, and also just because of your period and sometimes the way you buy the kind of sanitary pad, and like you stealing something from the supermarket and it's like a security thing and a lot of a lot of family 99 Or maybe more than that 99% of the family the the the surprise of the women skirt, unknown Geeta, and then the bottom part separately at the house. And that made me feel just because as I was born as a girl, and I don't want to live this guilt, and I don't, I don't want to feel guilty, I don't feel this is fair, or this is not so in my painting. And I also described it. And I also use a laundry or traditional fabric as the background of the painting instead of the canvas. And I really, really give this message really strongly or directly. To you know, to ask the question to the society again.
Brad 26:30
I really like that. So you're saying that you actually you paint on the fabric, instead of using a canvas, you actually your medium is women's clothing in your paintings, which I think is really cool. And and you bring up this example. And I think it's a very relevant, very poignant example, we saw back in March, April, these two main camps that were being set up in Asia goal, where the women would hang the terrain, and the soldiers would not pass underneath, you know, because they're afraid of losing their poem. And there was a very interesting trend that happened not long after this incident. A lot of young men on social media started covering themselves in Tommy and taking photos. Whereas we have the conservative military who are still terrified of women's periods, they're terrified of women's clothes, they're terrified of losing their pawn, or these sorts of things. So do you do you think that these attitudes are changing in Myanmar? Do you think people are growing out of these superstitions and seeing women differently? Or is it not happening,
Chuu 27:45
um, Taiwan, where you described about Myanmar and sometimes it is good to describe like Yangon and also Myanmar, the Yangon and the the the other. The other part of Myanmar, which is not younger included. So I think young one is a really, I have to say a really modern CTE and the year a lot of young people and really well educated and even though our education system is not really as really good, but they started to learn themselves, you know, through the internet and through the other programs. So I think the way they think is really is really you know, really open minded really and they can see what is the the mistake what is the wrong thing in the culture and the society is using this knowledges but the other side, the other part of Myanmar, except the exception or the outside of Yangon and the people are still believe in this from me so when I talked to the people who made this kind of campaign a young people a young why a young girls or also maybe the older generation who really believe in and moving this thing. And one day doing this kind of activity inside Yangon, a lot of people are supportive and it's really really working and when you even feel like wow we're gonna change you know like people and the crowd they follow behind it. But also part of the Yangon and even the same process one day had to run from the from Yangon and they have to hide in the in the a small town and they still there sometimes this do a protest save the city doing this kind of activity outside Yangon. And a lot of that they aren't a lot of interview that you will find and that they explain that how this fit called in the a small village and small town to do this kind of moment to do this kind of form. thing because it's not about revolution it's not about politics is really interesting thing that a cultural a traditional and religion is really delicate way is twisted and sometimes you cannot remove one thing like yeah this is tradition this is this is a culture this is religion, some people think some oh the lady and in the family and the society they believe this is religion things actually this is not religion things, this is a traditional or this is cultural, but you know, what they believe in from generation by generation for So, long, deep inside their mind. So, this is one good example about timing. So, similar like this problems in the society and they really deep inside, sometimes the way the society the way the man treat to the women, they think is this good it is deserved this is just because of the the we are women and the treating at this way, we are acceptable because we are women and they accept it. So, what is difficult in Myanmar is like in Yangon, you know, this is wrong, and you know, this is not true, select change it and everyone involved it, everyone's a part of this moment and they change it, you have to change, the fight to change, it is good, you just need to fight to change one fight, but the other side of the country is just to fight to change, you have to fight first to change their mindset. So, this is I have to say this is the most difficult part and this is the something that we have to stop for. And this sometimes steak is what takes many years or is can take many generation or if we likely make we can do within a few years. And what is the base on your question what is interesting is once happened to me like sexual harassment on the street, and then I woke up and I opened my eyes and I saw this kind of an equal saturation women I started to fight. And these give me the just because this kind of a traumatized moment happened to me. And I started to entrust it in the other the other symbols cases and I wanted to change it, I want to talk about it. The coup d'etat what has happened in Myanmar is similar was my personal personal experience. Sometimes I feel that we just did a big, enormous, enormous, a traumatized moment, shake the home Jamar and so it's strongly this kind of laundry and timing and this kind of a man glory and then they cannot walk under the skirt of a girl and this kind of thing. Who was maybe it was based in the modern society than young but this whole the concept of revolution will shake the whole Myanmar so and I'm sure there are a lot of women's and girls and also from the the whole countries involved and they started to think this way and offer this traumatize moment and maybe they were started to follow this way why peoples are using laundry to fight for it maybe my grandma from the small town my empty from the really conservative anti from the really a tiny city from Shan State maybe they will start thinking about it yet could you guys happen revolution is happening and why people are using this loan gene and like the power of loans and women's and award and this the whole moment shake them and I'm sure is what open most of the people eyed and maybe they will follow this, this idea and at some point, I hope live truly believe and they will get the the message or what is wrong from the culture and society and what the need to upgrade and to go to the better society. So what I'm really wishing it's for all of us to win this revolution. And after this revolution, I don't think we will go back to the same as before. And we will definitely upgrade in a lot of ways in the daily life in the society and even in the political way and even also in the educational educational system too.
Brad 34:46
I mean, that's definitely something that we're all hoping for but on the topic of the coup d'etat so you you have definitely incorporated that into your your artwork, and you have these, you know, artistic representations of people protesting on the front lines. Do you feel that after the coup, your art changed fundamentally? Or is this just another evolution of the same fundamental messaging, or female empowerment and a reexamination of the role of women in the role of young women in in society?
Chuu 35:28
All the hour that I created, based on my experience, and based on my thought, and sometime kind of the question that I want to ask to the people who look at the painting so what happened in my life is I don't think it's a surprise label, because sometime maybe the surprise to experience but some of the sometime there there happenings and parallels, so I'm still fighting and living as a women, I'm still have a lot of difficulties. And sometime, just because I moved to Europe, sometime I even have other problems as a women that I couldn't even think of before when I was living in Myanmar. So, before the coup d'etat, I was telling more about the power of women and, and like a little bit teasing wave of making a question to the society and then the culture. But after the coup d'etat, and during the coup d'etat, I was quite active on I was collecting the handwriting of the people on the street. And, and also I always kept painting kept creating artworks, and after the coup d'etat and the way I create and the way I see the problem, or the way I feel to the to the to the answer or the problem solving, is change. Because what happened to all of us is really a big thing. For me, I still cannot believe that this coup d'etat was happening when I was one I'm still alive in my life. And a lot of killing a lot of traumatize horrible things and still everyday and definitely, just your the whether you like it or not, is break in your life is changed you definitely so it has a lot of impact in my life. So after the coup d'etat, the way I see to the world and also the way I see myself and my life has changed a lot. And so all of my our lives, so we can see the change. Sometimes I talk about the revolution I talk about hope. And just because of now I'm far away from home and I don't know when I will be able to go back to my home I miss Myanmar a lot. And now I can see more clearly the beauty of Newmar and the deep. You know the the the unique thing that what made me and my beautiful, not one someone talk about Myanmar is not only coup d'etat and killing and also behind this we have beautiful culture beautiful story a tradition. This one we also have this so when I fall away from home, and I can see this more clearly so now I'm more interested in about the language the writing the alphabet, I feel it's more beautiful than before when I look at it again. And a plus the the killing and the then the fight for the people for their freedoms and all the bad news make me feel that like you know as an MMR and also the MMR We're from the same country I feel that we are connected in any way once there is a one bad news happen one killing happened is also made me feel bad. So this had a big impact on the creating the painting so the way I paint and then this style is change a lot. Inside me it changed a lot but now I cannot see in the painting is changed a lot or not. But after I think the time will tell this and but at the same time, I don't want to do only the revolution, the only the dark side of Myanmar at the same time. I see it's more the other uniques and the beauty of Myanmar. So now the hour that I created. Still, I'm still carrying the my backbones messages of the about the power of a women because still now still even I'm in New robe, I'm still that is the issue that is something that we still have to have working on this one will be the, the a little bit of the taste on the every the painting every concept that I created. But the two, the two things separated as an hour is one about the revolution, and one about the beauty and the unique things of Myanmar that I couldn't see before.
Brad 40:36
Okay. And so I wanted to just move back a little bit. So you you're in France now, but at the beginning of the coup, back in February, you were still in Myanmar. So can you talk to us about why you left and and how you left.
Chuu 40:56
So, a few days before the coup d'etat. I was in Mandalay and then I decided to to go to Yangon because at this time, I was living in both city in Mandalay and Yangon. And I paint the Mandalay and I carry this painting to Yangon and I, I work with the gallery they are made for the exhibitions. So basically, basically, I live in two city, but just a few, just before the coup d'etat I make the decision maybe I will go and live in Yangon, because it's going to be a better for me instead of going back and forth all the time and all the transportation so I was in Yangon, just to to make the final payment of my kind of Studio A please for the apartment that I will you as a studio and also at my you know, to live so. So in this morning of the in that morning, the way that when the coup d'etat has happened I was in front of the bank in Yangon. Just I was waiting to cash out to pay for my for this apartment and the bank was close. And I asked the secure security guide. Yes, why the band's close and I thought it's because of the COVID because the only half of the banks are closed during the COVID time so and then the security guy said no, no, no, it's not because of COVID is because of the political situation and an hour. Wow, okay. I don't know what is the what is happening and then my final note is not working. So I decided okay when the band is called our go back home and then i i call the taxi and inside the taxi that because of the Tressie driver attends to him I understand the coup d'etat what happened last night to em through the radio. And he told me all the internet of the phone lines, nothing is working. And then all our presidents and captured and the military they are marching from the fern for Naypyidaw to Yangon and then wow this a sir a short time when I didn't plan to that off I received that news and I was shocked and I went back home when I arrived instead of I'm going to the apartment I was on the street and our asking when I see a group of people I'm collecting the messages because because at the time is so difficult to know what is going on no internet, no phone call, I couldn't call anything so and then I realized that the coup d'etat was happened and and yes and after that I was stuck in young and and I decided to lose some of my money from this apartment instead of instead of keeping this apartment this idea to move to young and I was in Yangon and the first to saw through the factories of folly was completely invisible coop so I was even wondering yet The coup was happened just no one talked about it in the downtown of Yangon. Everything looked normal like really invisible so I was even I even wonder a bit at this time like maybe a little bit of changing on the on the leader and nothing will happen not like in the Ad Age you know I was thinking but anyway the with the dick to us whatever we vote whatever people tell about it like we don't care we don't give a shit like we can do whatever they want. You know the way they do is this so we cannot accept it. So starting from the fourth day of coup d'etat, a massive of people on the street suddenly a lot a lot of a human see on the on the street they started to Go out to demonstrate. And me too I wanted to, to tell my voice I want her to a straight A spread my voice off, you know, I cannot accept it so but I'm in the jungle I don't have a lot of friends most of my friends is Amanda late and I know a few friends in the angle, my Oh friend from the university so I call them the as quite far away for me. And then they are with their friends and groups and they are demonstrating industry. So to reach their to arrive to their sport is going to be as really difficult for me. So I was I spend today just on the phone and calling around the friends and to dry to protests on the street, because many people on the street and then and I we don't know how dangerous it is. And maybe it's not interest or maybe it's dangerous. We don't know business are really a new things to all of us. So I prefer to go on the street to demonstrate with the friends and people that I know. But after two or three days, I'm just in the apartment and I felt so bad, like masses of people on the street, I'm looking at it and I still don't find a front who joy you know. So at the end I said okay, okay, I don't care, maybe I don't have a friend or maybe they are far away, maybe I will go out on the street and I will demonstrate myself and I will do kind of creating a little bit of artwork and during this and I will I will demonstrate myself holding the poster. So I thought that way. And I went off from the building and then I I was checking in the downtown which grew our look nice and welcoming, you know to dry. And then suddenly I was just you know, just a human nothing, no accessory nothing just a water bottle and a bag and does it so I said okay, well I'm going to demonstrate I want to build a poster. So I went to the, to the painting supply store and I bought a paper and the painter to write a poster for me. And in front of the shop, I was writing a fourth row for myself and suddenly one came one man came and asked me Are you writing a poster? Can I have this one or two poster on one poster for me because I also left my house to protest on the street. But I didn't have the poster to hold it. So I asked him what he wanted to write and I wrote it for him and then and also at the same time they are a young a groups of the young artists grouped in front of the shop and they also writing the poster for themselves and also the other people's asking to them so yes, so I'm yet suddenly once I started to write a one poster for one person, it's never and the whole day a lot a lot of people the the they came constantly and asking the poster. So at the end of the day after I finished all my pain and paper and I was asking yes me instead of that I'm demonstrating on the streets in the groups and I'm an artist I can paint and I think this can be a good way to participate in the protests providing a poster to the people what they want to tell them what they want to hold in their hand. So and I talked to the to the young groups nice to me and then suddenly we became a we all become together and now we make this plan like yes and tomorrow we meet here the same point at this spot the same spot and we were started to let's write a poster for the people and then this is how how the rifle right for writing for the poster what happened at this time is not rifle right I didn't give the name for the rifle right because after I writing the poster in the evening and in the before we started for the writing the poster you know before the meeting time I was doing my other project is so I was holding the the empty canvas on the street and holding the pen in my hand and our asking people write something that you're feeling now write something that you want to change the wrong thing to write. So a lot of people the they came and write on this canvas what they feeling what they want to change, so beautiful. Some some of the texts are so beautiful, some are really hilarious and install to the military. And really interesting. I I'm happy that I made it because every day the saturations change, the vice are the people who are asked to write the poster and the handwriting of the people on the combat is changing and it's really directly reflect the voices of the people So, also, I give this name of this, collecting the handwriting of the people during the protests, this painting, I give the names of rifle, right. And the other side, I'm still writing the poster handers are poster each of us every day was a group of young people. At this time, I have the Facebook page with the 40k follower. So in my page, I was posting about the writing a poster and also the, the activity that was going on. So every day a new, a new, a new or young people who interested in like, who campaign or who interested into paint, and then they, they wanted to be part of this, you know, the, in the during the post protests what they can do so. So everyday we see a new young people's in our group, so this group is getting bigger and bigger. And at some point, I started to think, yeah, instead of we based on this spot, and how about, we do a mobile and because the situation is changing everyday, and the groups of the protest is also changing every one day today is important for the UN. So the people are protesting their protest, protesting and giving their messages and voices in front of the UN. Sometimes they mean to the embassy sometime there's in the downtown, you know, based on the the news and the saturation, the peoples are also moving. So I was thinking, Yeah, we are based on the downtown offering Sula area under the bridge is good, everyday, there something happened there. So it's good but at the same time, I also want to follow the based on the new of the other location so I asked the my friend to help me a truck so and a groups of we separate the two groups one who gonna paint on the on ground on the spot one on the truck. So on the trail we integrated the truck with the again like postar and like a message and we we hang the kind of a sign that it's a free poster for everyone. And so on the truck and we moving around in the on the street and we writing a poster for the people. And when I say you that I write the poster and I don't write the i i write the poster and I give it to them, we didn't do that, we just writing with the paint and the white paper and whiteboard and then one someone asked what they want to write what they want to give the right the what they want to feel right on the board and we we wrote it for them directly on spot. So this is also really interesting. And everyday at the end of the day I talk with the other people who write the you know our groups the people who write the poster and everyday the voices of the peoples are changing sometimes we have of course we have a few left overboard like we make a mistake or like the devices of the everyone's writing this one quote of the today and then the next day we will keep it in this this bar and we fix some design and we give to the people and that they don't want to hold it and they don't like this this this call this message it and they want a really upgrade at the you know to depend on the saturation the voice of today. So, this one is really interesting is uh so based on the day based on the saturation the date comprises already changing and and this is how I collected and certainly not certainly actually after day by days after this the saturation in Yangon is getting darker and darker. And the first step in with the knife in the downtown Yangon from the from the other the people from the Ministry side and the stuff the nice on the protests in the in the downtown not far from the SULI where we were we based and at that day, our just another corner of the desk where it was happened. So we all had to run. And I was I was walking to our meeting spot and suddenly this was happening everyone's running. We didn't know why we was running and everyone told us like Run run run so you know at this day I was what the big bear with full of paints and all the equipment and how to run in the in the small street hiding in the building and then some people they hide in their apartments, so there was the the first fronting was happened. At this time the military they didn't use the real bullet of shootings or killing was happened at home, but it was the first one is happened after that a few people are young people who have during the postal writing, they were in the jail for a few weeks. And after that the, the they were freed again but but they were in the jail for, for for a while. And in the saturation and the angle is really getting darker and darker. We couldn't even recognize a Yangon as we remember is like a real battleground. And at this time, we didn't do the writing the poster because it's so difficult with the all the equipment after we do we have the experience or a real actual run on the street. And also with the big tray is even more difficult. During that time I even told or for the people who have them on the track is something happened just don't think about the truck just run don't think about any evidence just run. But luckily we were always a little bit ahead of the head of all the bad things happened we only make the good decision to choose the location and also make the good decision to leave the time when we should move the time so so the track or we didn't have a lot of problem with the track and after writing the poster after the saturation change we decided to keep in one apartment and we paint a smaller painting and using the through the Facebook page that I mentioned before and when we're selling the small painting and selling all the and donating all the profit of the sale of this small painting to CDM civil disobedience movements to people who drive the CDM we donated this kind of we changed the plans like you know inside the apartment to mean secretly but it's still one guy one of our friends with the scooter with a motorbike and the have to deliver of the the painting of the after there's two to one we won we sold so it's also so dangerous for him some of the small paintings are kind of political outward like against the coup d'etat against military coup so so dangerous fighters only we we made us for one week or 10 days after that we decided to stop it and starting from that point is more like an individual move and I kept doing this the rifle right things and at the time I was living in San John San John and a lot of military the such the apartments of your your building with no paper no document anything when they want to check the contract they can bring your dog so in my apartment is so full of this rifle right painting with the handwriting of the people and definitely when you look at it just the first one second and you see that with the strong evidence how people hate them, how they insulted how they want the freedom they want justice, they want the elected winning leader to be free. So these paintings are in my room so so I definitely need to move them so I asked them I asked someone somewhere to somewhere safe to keep this painting for me and Ilan to move this painting from my apartment to this safe place is like in the American you know Hollywood slasher movie is was so stressful Sandra is full of military in every corner that we have to pass this yes anyway there was one for you answer foreign people they involve it for moving this people moving this painting from my players so I think at some point military maybe the the notice that with a car with the different diff different license plate and the moving from this beating a big board, you know moving something, you know, maybe something is happening, so we never know. I never know. How is that happen? But anyway after a few days bye In this painting, a groups of militaries arrived knock in front of my apartment door, they can be nice or turn, millage. They're not military actually be in the police uniform, holding the gun in front of the door. And, and just asking the questions. And there was only one guy who wasn't wearing the uniform. And he was the one who's really important and leading the groups in the, in the groups of this policeman. And then I realize at this moment, when they're in front of the doors, and asking questions, and, and whatever they want to do to me, they can do whatever they want, and I have no protection, I have no protection, I was scared, that feeling made me really scared, after you saw in front of your house, with the scans, and whatever they can do to you. And this is the moment that I started to think about, maybe it's not safe for me to be here. And I stick because before I never wanted to leave my country, there is a time that they need the people the most who can help. So, I wanted to beat in my country, I wanted to do what I can help because already I took a few people before this things happen. And then I talked with some of my friends and I always denied denied denied to leave to leave to leave the country, but this happen and I talked with one of my friends, and he is really important the people for the family and because anyway, just so I talked with this friend, and then and then he eighth play me that the situation and also he gave me the suggestions. Now to think about yourself what you can do now not a lot insight, Myanmar, and you should be out of the country and I thought you already have the country now if your cat managed to leave the country. He said he recommend me to leave the country because if someone out of the country is something can can help outside is always useful. And and prepare yourself that thing that you can keep doing in Myanmar and the thing that you can help me Omar offsites a country and and and yes, this phone call really made me think that. And also plus the last night with this clip. So for the people with the guns that made me really convinced me to leave the country. And then I asked some help. And then within a really short times, I arrived I got the visa and I arrived some friends. And I asked for my parents told me not to come back to Mandalay to say goodbye. But anyway, I made it two days. I took I took the saloon and on the highway and I won back to Mandalay and I say goodbye to them for two days. And then I won back to Yangon. And I took the flight and very short time with the the luggage that I loved the night they arrived at the at my in front of my apartment, the same luggage. And I arrived from France.
Brad 1:03:36
So that's, I mean, that would have been a very terrifying experience to have. And I think you mentioned that your family as well had to move.
Chuu 1:03:45
Yeah, this one was after I after France, I mean after I arrived from France. So while I'm in France when I arrived from France, The first a couple months, I was completely adding as a loser, or just staying in the apartments feeling guilty for leaving the country and I know no one in France and I have no friends and all my carrier everything that I built from the throne so to to, to, to live as an artist and everything and all the gallery that I work are I have to leave behind in Myanmar. And it's completely I feel like I'm I cannot speak their language and I am completely new here like you know a starting a thing so and I feel so bad and also my emotional is really feeling down a friend and depress I'm a completely a loser at the time. And and then after two or three months and all my social media I had to delete it when I have to leave the country for the safety at the airport. So When I contacted the gallery in France so you know to have some charms and to keep working then they said the SD Instagram the ESA social media to trace it and then and I have nothing is like completely I'm a new person like you know just someone who just finished the high school or someone sometimes I feel with the at that even eight year old eight year old kid can speak better than me so, I was feeling quite depressed for two or three months and after that I was I cannot help my country I cannot even help myself. So So at some point I was okay I cannot be I cannot be like this all the time so I started building my portfolio my website and all the social media that I had to delete it I recreated again and this made me make me give life again you know I was moving again and I was hoping so and I make up my mind to recover from this sadness and also this being a guilty and and and when I on the one I'm capable of working again and and I can keep helping the people from Myanmar again so and so I realize yes to help the other people and also it's important to to stand on my feet and to help myself first and then then and then I don't find any place to make the exhibition of my rifle right the painting they arrive together with me I'm after so many people and so many months I spent on the way to arrive in France these painters are with me but I still cannot find the gallery who going to show these artwork so I was a little bit feeling better okay I still don't find any one yet. But instead I'm feeling depressed is is good to keep moving on and keep to me something. So in I deserve to demonstrate and to to our performance out in the streets of Paris. So I started with a small thing in front of the loop the first time when I started is the in front of the loop me in the red dress and with the my head is hidden under the rest cough and there was my first move I was demonstrating there and also kind of for performance there and then suddenly the security from the loop the the runs and run off from the from the loop and they say no no no no and I think this so scared and afraid because you know I got a lot of attention from the peoples a lot of people they stop and they watch me me I'm in the red and then the they cannot see the face and the rest so I think I understand that security from the luthier they were scared and suddenly the the the the run off from the building and they kick it off go away you know like I have to move with this big red dress and then the hours for shorts our labor scare to keep doing the the hour on this real parents because I just flee my country and then this country is happy me to slay for right now and then how about if I maybe the copyright thing so if I did something wrong maybe if they kick me out I have nowhere to go so I was a little bit afraid but I thought okay, anyway I keep doing this so I kept to me that a second board a third spot on the bridge and the same dress and then the same messages and and then there's give me energy and then this give me Yes I see come maybe I'm outside the country but I stay can support the people and iced and I stick on top of that or we're together and we as we have the same target. So then the second move is like instead of this a small performance I make a kind of a longer performance on more math on the second car. And then I make the performance video but not in the dress in the white race and then this video was pressed so Walt in Myanmar and everywhere else during this time if you ask someone about this video and most of the people's already watched it but and also the BBC knew they make the interview about it and at this time I didn't know I was just happy yes people support me I thought maybe they don't maybe they won't really care about it but seem at this time in near the peoples of Myanmar they couldn't demonstrate a lot they couldn't do the law. So I think is what the right moment to to this video is published and everyone's feelings like support supportive at the same time is really well and after a few day from the reliable source and I got the other the message on the photo that I was on the I was on the I don't know that I can tell him the the interview. But anyway, I was on the military department top secret fine. And I was number 14. And then they reported everything the text that I wrote the clothes that I wear the colors, the locations, my name. And at the end of the paper, I think maybe someone's important with the handwriting wrote or four lines and in this four lines like the find the biography, check the in our list of the country and also find the family room member and report again. So it's written like this. So find the family member, this is the Sunday and that scares me the most because I know they couldn't touch me they couldn't do anything to me because I'm in France, but my whole family including my younger sister isn't isn't a sale insight Myanmar. So instead of they cannot talk to me, I'm worried for my parents have more worry for my younger sister because we look similar. And she also young people, so at the target that's of the young people, she can be the be the one that they targeted. So I was so scared. And I, I took a few days to make the decision why I should do. And then at the end, I decided to tell my parents and yes, I did it is happened, you have to move your house, because I wasn't sure that the address that I put in my ID in my passport and also to apply for the visa I didn't remember what address that I add. So anyway is the best for them to to remove the house and during that time in Myanmar is a little bit difficult to find to run a new place because the owner they suspect by you, you find a new place to run your civil disobedience or your the criminal law, you know, say wondering so and at the end, they found the place. After one week, they found a place and they sent me they sent me the photo of the place. And i i My heart was broken. And the place associated the Twilight's everything was horrible is really kind of a dumb place. But anyway, the safer there, they didn't complain at all, I and I didn't talk about anything about the place and how difficult for them to to live there for a while for a few months. But anyway, it's safe after for them to move this place or they move there for me. And they are safe now.
Brad 1:12:42
I mean that ultimately, that's what's important is that they've managed to go somewhere that's, that's safe. But from your Furong position, you're now in France. And obviously you had you know, a negative experience with protesting in front of the roof. Which is very unfortunate. But as a general rule, I'm wondering how do how do people in France and how does the community in France react to your context and your art and your politics compared with the artistic community back in Myanmar
Chuu 1:13:21
for right now everything Mr. People wherever you can do whatever the you can support and back to the country the support and they're happy for every different way. If you can cook you cook the food and you style it for the for the funding, they always happy if you campaign you painted if you can make the music, your music sob helpful in every field, every industry, every talent people wherever you can do even a small thing is really helpful. So right now it's not only the community in France and every Myanmar people outside Myanmar whatever part of the world I think the the feeling the same way I feel it
Brad 1:14:08
but so I mean, not so much that but I'm more like your art specifically the the the emphasis on the role of women and and women in society and sexual harassment and these sorts of things. Do you find that the French community is responding differently to this art than the Burmese community?
Chuu 1:14:34
Yes, a little bit slightly different. Because sometime when they look at the painting, they see is the portray for women's and they wondering the girl from the from Myanmar, you know this kind of very traditional country they made this kind of open position of women portrayed. So they wondering, so when they start a situation Question Why you paint on the traditional fabric, or why you paint this kind of. So women, we can ace plain and I can explain the story behind it and one day much with the finger in the painting and the message behind it is really interesting. And I think a French speakers are really open to listen and to, to ace Plov the the different culture so there is a really a good part and I'm happy when I'm introduced myself that I'm the one from Myanmar pure money and the most of them they know where the country a set. So I'm happy for that, but they don't know a lot about the country I need to relive it introduce, but they know the geographically what I live and the some people they already think to Myanmar. So I think the connection is really working well. But, but interesting is still the message of the women power of my painting. Still sometime still may be similar in the situation in France, because still in front the renal right is still the are fighting for and a lot of philosophy and a lot of concept and the in the article and and what they are talking about it. So maybe they don't have a similar problem as Myanmar, but they have a similar the same problem as Myanmar, but they have a similar problem. So I think the women issue is like a global thing. So and also the have their French way of thinking and fighting the about the life of the women here. So I and I feel that they found that a comunes thing, and they can understand, and they can have the another dimension of the story from the from the Neoma point of view through this same fight.
Brad 1:17:09
That's fascinating. So there's this sort of a sense in which the conflict in one country can help to inform the conflict in another country. So that both can both can move forward and both can repair. just experimenting, yeah.
Chuu 1:17:28
And also in my painting, sometimes, you know, when I was young, when I started to, to change my painting style, from the realism to the modern way, I learn and I, I read a lot, and I tried to understand a lot about the Western art and restaurant art history. So at some point, I completely took 100% the idea from the rest from the West, and I put this message as an idea in my painting, but I feel it wasn't really working well. So, we we have a different culture and society and the way we live are different, and the way we see and the way we think about the idea and the way we think to solve the problem is also a little bit different. So, and I at some point, after a few years, I realized that I cannot take all the concept and idea from the west to to put in the in the in the frame in the artwork of the Myanmar society with the with with in in my Myanmar mindset. So, at some point, I realize maybe the problem may be similar, but different depends on the country depends on the society and the culture. And also the way we solve this problem is my also different. So since I figure it out, and the sea outward that I made, and the thing that I see, the became more unique, and I can talk more about Myanmar and at the same time, I can ask more question I can tell more about the culture and at the same time, they're telling the difference dimension of seeing the same problem. For example. Maybe one was wrong mindset about solving the problems. Maybe there is one problem in Myanmar instead of I'm taking 100% If this solution, and I adopted this idea and I and I trained a referent this solution but I make the a different solution to fix them in the Myanmar culture and society. And then and based on this, this concept, I make the artwork on my painting so When you look at the painting the people from Myanmar, and they understand it, and they give a question to them. And the idea or the inspiration for the solution. And also the people from the outside of Myanmar who are not from your mouth, when they look at this painting they still can see the way how we adopt the, the we didn't take 100% I mean, I didn't take 100% and I changed and I I change to fix in in our culture and society. So when people outside Myanmar when they look at it, the way near more people think the way we think the ways the society and the culture, how shape in the shape in the in the problem and also the problem solving things. So I think it's a really beautiful, and I think a lot of people they would love to just seen this smile, our work and find the to understand the culture behind it, the social behind it, and at the same time, they're how Myanmar people, they they solve their own problems and, and own difficulty in, in Myanmar, cultural way?
Brad 1:21:29
No, it's a good insight. But so moving, moving from the contemporary, more to the future, I just have one more question I want to ask, and that is, what do you envisage for your art and your continued messaging, in the coming weeks in the coming months, and potentially even in the coming years?
Chuu 1:21:53
Yes, after the coup d'etat. And I feeling is really a bit depressed. And after that I live again, when I live again, and I make this artwork and this hours not only impact me and only the there are also impact on my families, and also the people that I care the most. So before this time, I was a little bit wondering how r is important and how art is powerful in the daily life and also to fight especially to fight for the revolution, how the art can, can be a powerful, so before I wasn't really sure, to be honest, but after this happened to me, and it's arrived, the same time together, and suspects and the set net, and then the the pressure of course, but I realized the art maybe is powerful, the art what I'm doing is maybe it's not nothing, maybe they're going to be the something that's why the military the the move the IRS to take care of it. And the the you know, the I mean, for example, like this, our like punch them and is hurt them, you know, it's kind of touchable through our souls offer this happened to me, it was really a stressful time and I cried a lot, there's so many stretched and pressure, but after this, I realized yet the art is something that that we can keep the minute and we can keep punching them using art. So, in the future, I will keep doing the artwork just to just to reach our target our the the country the better future that as we want to build with the Justic and freedom and yes and an eye our keep creating this kind of this kind of artwork and also just because of i the whole life I wear live as on women and I will live as a female definitely this one this one will never change. So, from my points of view from from the points of the dimension of women and dimension of Myanmar women from all the background of the culture of the of the of the division that I see. I filled not a lot I said that. I said not a lot of people will have a chance. The people who have coup d'etat experience the people who are Half the sexual harassment industry the people who was left from the small town and big town and then big seed in Myanmar and move in France and different completely different culture. So when I think about it and some of the choices, lights leaving the home leaving my country, I don't want to take this chance I don't want to leave it. But anyway, I'm in this situation instead of I'm feeling depressed, and I wishing something that I cannot have right now. And I realized, maybe when I create the hour from this point of view, when I look at it in, in France, sometimes I want to do some more for my exhibition, I look up the the country of new sample their culture, their story, through my eyes, sometimes one to the to the Ukraine. And I look up the Ukraine, culture and history from my eyes. You know, at this time, I was surrounded by the people, the local people, and also kind of European nationality people. So when I look at one thing about maybe a COVID solution, like the vaccine, whatever it is it when I look at it, I have a different dimension a little bit slightly different from them. And it's not only one maybe a daily things a daily life and what is happening in a normal in general, sometimes maybe it was one solutions, one thing one, one thing that you need to find the find, find a solution to solve, but when we look at it, and when I look at it, we're all for this background that is a slightly different points of view. So I think it's a really interesting one I want I can keep this moment this idea the view that I've looked at to the different world from the different background and I can put it on the our work I think it's gonna be they're really interesting. Because now I'm not only from the small towns really conservatives only thinking of focusing about one culture, I can taste the author's culture and I can taste the other a different life and different view and different the political situation different way mindset of people, not only right now, you know, it's like from generation by generation in their different society, how the way they look at it, I think it's really interesting and it's really a beautiful so and I feel it's yours are also unique. So I think in the future, I want to keep this little moment little moment little moments. And I want to, to show this the different dimension of the looking at to the world through art gang Dakota corbeille.
Host 1:28:26
After today's discussion, it should be clear to everyone just how dire the situation is in Myanmar. We are doing our best to shine a light on the ongoing crisis. And we thank you for taking the time to listen. If you found today's talk of value, please consider passing it along to friends in your network. And because our nonprofit is now in a position to transfer funds directly to the protest movement, please also consider letting others know that there is now a way to give that supports the most vulnerable and to those who are specially impacted by this organized state terror. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form of currency or transfer method. Every cent because immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. donations go to support such causes as a civil disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guest you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called Better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts, or email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration yeah yeah,
1:31:31
Yeah