Transcript: Episode #83: The Revolution's Roving Eye
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Moe, which appeared on December 26, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Joah 00:03
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00:28
Doris Suam, is a researcher in the field of human rights, peace and economic development. She was interviewed on May 5. We really need humanitarian aid in Myanmar, even ordinary people are struggling now. Even though there had been some speculation in the media about a coup happening, I didn't really believe it. The night before both power and internet cut out in the area where I was staying. But it still didn't occur to me that a military takeover was about to take place. So it was really shocked when I heard the news the following morning. I have never experienced a coup myself. But given the military's record of human rights violations, I immediately realized that the situation was about to get worse. And I became very sad. At the time of the coup, I was living in New Jena and planning to travel to Yangon to meet my work supervisor. But I knew that wouldn't be possible anymore. So I moved to my grandmother's house to stay with my family. And the weeks following the coup, none of us felt like talking much. We couldn't even eat or sleep properly. We were all scared, I wasn't able to concentrate on my work. Actually, I wasn't able to do anything. I would spend all day every day checking for updates on Facebook. Before the coup, when we were only fighting the COVID 19 pandemic, I felt like it was okay since it was a global problem. But now I'm so disappointed and angry. We have to deal with a double crisis in Myanmar. It's not fair. The country's economy is in ruins, and so many young people's education has been postponed indefinitely. Everything is so uncertain now. I worry about the future of my younger cousins, nieces and nephews. I've lost hope of achieving my personal goals too. But luckily, I can still continue working remotely for my organization in Yangon. In Egina. There have been protests and the CDM since the beginning, and they're still going. But most older people don't participate anymore, only the youth are left. That's why young people are being targeted. Just the other day 10 were arrested while organizing themselves at a market. By now there are over 100 Young people in jail here, including journalists and humanitarian workers. In addition, the quay and the military are still fighting. So many vulnerable groups in the region need help women, government teachers participating, the CDM, Id bees, etc. I have been helping to channel money coming from donors abroad to local women's organizations. Otherwise, I don't go up much only when I really have to the gate that I need your pass to get downtown or to the market has been very thoroughly checked by security and the military basically arrest anybody they want. I always hide sensitive photos on my phone and make sure they will not find anything suspicious. During these difficult times, I don't get any specific psychological support. But just the fact that I am with my family and we're facing the situation together helps a lot. It would have been much more challenging for me to do this alone. For a long time. I've been away from home, living and working in many different places in Myanmar and abroad, never having the opportunity to spend months like this with them. So I'm enjoying it. As a Christian. Praying and night worships also helped me as well as talking to my friends. We really need humanitarian aid in Myanmar. Even ordinary people are now struggling. Collecting money from inside the country is only a short term solution, but definitely not sufficient in the long term. I also don't think this is the right time to discuss development, but instead to advocate for humanitarian aid to support the vulnerable people across the country. At the end of the day
Joah 05:42
I'm very pleased to be speaking with an internationally award winning photojournalist who has captured some of the iconic scenes of the reality in Myanmar over the last decade, and whose work since the coup has landed him one of the most prestigious honors in photojournalism. due to safety concerns, he has not granted many interviews. And even in this one, we are going to have to be careful about what we say and how we say it. Which is a shame because it obscures many of his real accomplishments. But in any way, we'll do the best we can. And we're so happy to have you on and to go where we can with a discussion that follows.
Moe 06:25
Yeah, thank you very much for having me on the podcast. And I'm really happy to talk and I hope I can talk as openly as I can. But yeah.
Joah 06:37
Yeah. So let's go back a little bit through your career. First, before we get to present day you had been in university, we won't mention the field or the universities somewhere in Myanmar. And at some point, you decided to coordinate my understanding to drop out and become a photo journalist, when Myanmar started going through its transition, what led to this decision?
Moe 06:59
Yeah. So I was like, in my final year, and I went to pick when I first picked up a camera, and it was actually like, I was, I was, like, I just wanted to photograph like, you know, make some, you know, landscape, try landscape photography, or, you know, like sceneries and stuff. Because this is what I knew photography is about, like you either do portraits, or like fashion or landscapes. And I was interested in like landscapes and stuff. But then you also picked up a camera. And the good thing was, that time there was, like, we just started having the internet and I could Google, it takes some time, but I could Google, like digital photography, and I could learn even though I you know, there is no big like foundation for photography, you know, there's like, no school for photography, and all that, you know, I could still use internet to learn. And, and, you know, because my, my parents were also a little worried that I would change my career at once, you know, like to be a photographer. So they didn't like want me to attain any, like photography class or anything. So, but then I saw there was, like, a free photography workshop. It was actually about photos, storytelling. And I sign up for the workshop, because, you know, it was free. And I didn't know what was the way meant, I just thought this photography workshop, but that was the first time I was because the workshop I see, like all the photojournalistic works from from the region and from, you know, from the blue international photographers. And that was the first time I was blown away. And, you know, I realized that this whole thing existed, you know, as, you know, like photojournalism, or telling stories with photos existed. And I was really interested, fascinated. So, so after the workshop, I remember I sent this to the instructor, I said, I want to be a photo journalist, and I don't know what it means. But you know, it's just said that, and then that was 2010 2011. And then in 2012, I remember like, there was so dancing to change, like, came out of our house arrest and she went around the country for by election campaign. And I decided to follow her campaign and photograph you know, like it was because it's something that I've never seen. My parents have talked about her a lot since I was a child and I've never really like you know, seen her in person. And you know, it was really a great opportunity to also like, you know, to try and take pictures, you know, also my friends right? Say, Yeah, let's go and take pictures. This is going to be historical. So yeah, so we I went to Mandalay, I went to molinia and I went to you know, I went all around the country following as she went for the by election campaign. And at the end of the campaign, I started, you know, working. At the end of the campaign, I got an offer for to start working for an international news agency. And this is when I just, you know, I realize I'm already in it. And I, that's how I started. And I just said, I will, I will go back to the university. I will, you know, wherever I was pursuing after that, but But you know, it's been almost 10 years now, since I started.
Joah 10:38
Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's, that's a great introduction to where you've landed in what you've done. And you obviously went through training at Allianz Francaise, and then you went out and did your own things experimented, I'm sure you as far as you were able to get online at that time, look at examples. And along the way, you've learned a lot and become obviously become quite accomplished. This is of course, and oral platform. So we're going to have to encourage listeners to look, I was gonna say we will give a reference. But of course, we can't give a reference because we're, we're, we're shielding part of your identity. So we'll have to figure that out after the interview airs, what how, what, what exactly pictures we we put on and what links we give. But in any case, as far as we're able to do on an oral platform, can you describe for the listeners, what you're looking for? When you take pictures? How have you mastered your craft? What is your style when you're trying to capture something and bring some message home? What makes a good picture?
Moe 11:43
like social media, so like, since since I started, like doing photography professionally, as for a journalist, so I had, because, you know, that was, I would say, like, I started as soon as the country open up and, and but then, like, you know, working for an international news agency, like I we had to cover, I had to cover like a lot of different issues that was happening in the AMA. And, of course, like some of these issues involve like about Rohingya and, you know, part of conflict. And, you know, so it's, I had the chance to come, like, you know, like to work on all these different issues, like along the years. So for me, it's just like, like photography is just really just a tool. It's a tool to like to tell stories, and to talk about, you know, plugins, I think, photos can communicate at, you know, many different levels. And very often, if it's powerful, if it's a powerful photograph, it can communicate at a deeper, deeper level. And, yeah, so it's, it's, it's my work is just about trying to tell the story in the best possible way that I can using, you know, these photos as a visual storytelling tool.
Joah 13:11
Right. One of the things I saw in, in some article describing how you went about trying to take pictures, which really stuck in my mind was that you were trained on landscape photos, but you wanted to capture social issues. And when I saw when I saw you describe that, then I started looking at your pictures, I saw that I'm not at any kind of trained photographer, but in my untrained eye, it looked like that was what was happening. And a lot of the pictures I saw that there were these two elements of like, a landscape that was providing context and background, and then a foreground of human emotion interactions, some kind of story that was taking shape within that landscape would would that be a correct characterization? Or how would you alter
Moe 13:55
that? Well, yeah, so like, like, sometimes I would do like landscape photos as part of a larger story. And since since I started, like, working as a full, you know, visual storyteller or photo journalist, you know, it's, it's, it's the main, the one main thing that I always fascinated by, or, you know, like, one thing that I'm really interested about is just people, and this is what I like, photographing, and I, you know, and like, it can be like, very, very often, it's like ordinary people living an extraordinary life. Or, you know, people from like, men, you know, the most remote areas in the country, but it's always like, about the people and this is why so I I always try to get like as close as possible to the people and this this is really what what I try to focus on. Yeah, so that's why Like, I mean, like, sometimes you will see the exam landscape. Like, you know, when I'm like trying to take, take a step back and stuff like that. But you know, it's always about people that I photograph. Yeah.
Joah 15:14
Right. And it's because it's about people, another of your tactics or your strategy when you go and photograph, as I understood from what I read before is that you like to actually live with the people that you're photographing. And this is apparently uncommon for photojournalist coming into a place where they often stay at hotels, or stay away, but for the most part, even in very difficult places, which we'll get into in a moment, you've insisted on actually staying and living with the people as you photograph them. Why do you find that important?
Moe 15:46
I think, like, so we, I mean, like, you know, as a photographer, like I, I can, you know, when I go to, like, photograph as, like, you know, a group of people in the living, they'll live in a community. And, of course, like a stranger coming with the, you know, camera, and, you know, coming into their privacy, and like, you know, the best thing I can say is, I want to take your picture, and I want to try and tell your story. And if you know, Billy, but But I, I think like in the pictures, like you can really tell how much you know how close you get to the people, you know, how much you understand about the story, because we're not just like, capturing things. And it is and like showing, I mean, of course, like, we try to capture what like, you know, a photographer, I try to capture what I, you know, the, what I understood of, you know, of the story or about the people. So I think it's really important for me to you know, it's to not just like go in and start like clicking or, you know, pressing the shutter button. It's important for me to like, you know, it's just like, you know, as I've said, it's because, like, the camera is just a tool. So it's not about like, it's not even about photography, it's about like, you know, communicating with these people, and getting to know them and trying to like, you know, tell the story in the most, like, justifiable way. So I think it's really that's why I like to spend time, you know, so when I go to like, for example, when I go to, like this place that this, you know, this this long term project that I've always that I've worked on for many years, I you know, I would always go back and I, you know, I would know, the people there and yeah, so it's, I mean, I also like really, like through photography, it also gives me the opportunity to like, learn about them and learn about the stories. And it's not, yeah, I think this is actually the greatest thing about my work, is that my job is that, you know, I get to learn all these stories from all these different people. And yeah, so it's, that's why I like to spend time and, you know, to be in the be in the crowd, be with them.
Joah 18:12
Right. And you've also described how you much more prefer doing in depth reporting than just covering the story moving on, which should bring you well suited to the podcast, because this is a long form discussion, not a five minute soundbite. So kind of similar methodology. And in that approach, and just as you are trying to capture many different people find bring their way out different voices that we bring out there. And the longest line that you do, you're just sort of journals, and we were, you know, the last 10 years, you have traveled extensive places around Calgary and Laurel to all different kinds of communities. And
Moe 18:51
this is what I probably she is about I have any reason to do otherwise. So like saying that announce games travel
Joah 18:59
experience landscapes, what was comfortable? What Yeah, so it was really picked up a
Moe 19:05
camera and the good thing was we just started having the Yeah, like, so when I get to places like the Jeep mines or, you know, like, you know, but it's, it's, it's, it's, like, you know, it's like, for example, when I first got to the Jeep mines, in pockets, I was really like shocked for myself as well. I've never seen, like such a landscape or you know, such a place, you know, like all these hundreds of 1000s of people like you know, crawling over like very dangerous and steep mountain scapes. You know, I couldn't believe it myself. And at the same time, I realize that I bear like a responsibility to try and tell this story in the best possible way. You know, because I, it's like, there's many of these stories because you will think that we, because we live in Yammer, and we will know about these, but actually, many people in Yammer don't know how things because we had like very little before, like the country kind of opened up in 2010. They, again, people, like all the people, you know, the only thing that the people were like, seeing or reading was like, you know, government, propaganda newspaper, and you know, and so it's, you know, we will see, like, you know, military generals, like giving offerings to Buddhist monks, but not all these, like different kinds of stories. So it's like, I think, after decades of being close, like, when it opened up, there was a lot of stories to be told, and it's not just for the outside world, it's also a, you know, for the, you know, for our own people in Yammer, and who don't know, that these things exist, and how, you know, how these work, there's all these problems, there's all these issues, there's all these conflicts. Yeah, you know, so it's, it's, it's, like, like, I feel like I feel very, like, you know, well, I would say, I don't know, if I'd say lucky, but you know, it's, it's really, like, great for me to, you know, to, to, to be in these places, and you have the chance to tell the story. And, and one amazing thing is, you know, most of the time, like it's the people in these places, they would they are also very willing to, you know, to let the story be told. So, you know, that that makes it really good for, for me to, you know, to work on these stories, and, you know, go to these places. Yeah. And international news.
Joah 21:49
That was actually that leads into my next question, this was wondering what it's like, when you're taking the picture, that's how I started firstly, what I just said, our viewers within the country, basically, this is looking at both sides of that. So as you're preparing to take a picture now, I started letter nine, the camera that you're capturing what their reaction is, and I'm sure it's not one reaction, it's diverse. And then once that picture is finished, and printed, what you've learned about the reaction in the country to some of your, your photography and your work?
Moe 22:27
Well, yeah, that's where I think it's really important for me to, like, try and understand the, you know, this, you know, that's, that's why it's important for me to just, like, you know, walk in as a photographer and start, like, shooting a start, like making images, where, but that's why it's really important for me to try and understand the story myself. So that when I try when I, when I, when I take the pictures, and when the pictures are published, and when the story is told, you know, it's, it's, like, you know, people really need to understand it in the most accurate, accurately possible way. And, you know, so it's, like, like, for example, when I go to, like, drunk shooting gallery in emerging minds, they're like, your people really know that, you know, what they, you know, they don't, you know, they're not sure. You know, they like being photographed, but then I try to explain what I'm doing. And, and then, like, you know, some, some people they want to, do they know that this is, you know, it's not like, it's not, it's not a good thing between by, but then at the same time, they want people to know that this is happening. So, you know, like, they're willing to have their picture taken. Just so that like, you know, people in other places know what's happening in pocket. Yeah, so it's, I think it's, it's, like, it's, it's sometimes like, for example, in, in the Rohingya camps, it's, it's always, like, quite difficult to, you know, like, taking pictures there and trying to tell a story, because they, like most of the people in Yama had, like a very different view on the Rohingya issue. So yeah, like there really is, you know, creaky situations where I have to be really careful with how I portray them and how I you know, how you present story
Joah 24:34
and do you know anything about how your work has been received by a Burmese audience?
Moe 24:41
Yeah, like it's, it's, I think, like, like for example, when when the lady you know, some some stories like Like, like, like, like the Jake mines, you know, the audience were like, really, when he was like, I mean, it was mostly published like abroad and in foreign media, but then when he was probably Within Yammer, then like, you know, I could see that like, many people were shocked to, you know, to learn this, learn about this and, and other people were like, some people say, oh, yeah, no, we never knew, like, this is, you know, this, this existence this happens in our country and, you know, it's, it's, I mean, it gets in the situation, I'm very happy to see that, you know, like that, you know, like people learning something through my photos. Yeah. Where, and, you know, in difficult to ease, there's also like, difficult stories like, you know, like, for example, about the Ranger. You know, there's one time I got like, a lot of, I took a picture of, like, ruined your mother and with her Mel Nutri have babies suffering from malnutrition. That time, like, even though, you know, I thought the picture was very strong. And it's, you know, it's like, the story is heartbreaking, as well. But like, you know, many people, they had a very different view, you know, towards Ranger. So, you know, there was a lot of I got a lot of like that command and criticism as well. I'm not, it's not me, but it's just, you know, it's, it's like, yeah, like it's there are different issues in different reactions from people, of course. Yeah.
Joah 26:32
Right. So you've referenced two of the biggest stories that you worked on with Jaden Rohingya, and so I want to take them one by one and learn a bit about your work and these issues before we get to the presentation of the coup, which I'm sure listeners we're definitely getting to is that's that's also quite interesting and important. But looking at the experience in documenting the Jade camps in kitchen states, you note that this is a multi billion dollar industry, it's estimated at $31 billion. That's a figure that we can't even really understand what that looks like. It is it has been noted as being half of the national revenue of Myanmar. So that puts things somewhat into perspective. Can you share something about your initial impression upon arriving at these Jade camps in Kachin state?
Moe 27:22
Well, we first arrived there in 2013, I was like, you know, it's like when I go to pocket the jayway the Jake mines I, you know, I was like I was Yeah, I was blown away to see this like Luna kind of landscapes and all these like, like, you know, public and people appear really small. It's like, it's like it's almost like Anne's going over, you know, a block sweet candy or something. But then it's in my camera's viewfinder, it appears like that. And then there's all these like machines and you know, it's just like, it's it's really like something that I've never seen before and you know, over there, they say like your mountains disappear within days or weeks and you know, and it becomes big legs. And so you know, let you know there's really no normal like normal landscape you know, in patent because it's yeah, really heavily mined with hundreds and hundreds of they cause mining machines which are really big Yeah, like so. At that time, I didn't know about the figures and the numbers you know, but I I knew that like this is really something big but not many many people knew about it and no don't know the scale of it. And from from from my point of view, like before getting there myself like you know, Patreon is known as a place for where like your young man would cry, you know go there to become you know, with a dream like to find a stone that will change your life. So, you know, everybody wants to go there and become a Louboutin you know, nobody's award the Kobe for like, it's a Chinese word they use there for people for like rich people. So there will be people who don't young man would go there with a dream to find the shortcut to wealth and and so you know, like but then what actually when actually right there it's not all that you know, it's not all that story animal is just, it's really like tough like terrain. The work looks very deadly and actually like people like hundreds of people die every year from like lens lens, you know, lens landslides, especially in the monsoon season. And there's a lot of like drug issues or because harrowing is cheaply and almost openly available. Yeah, and then there's the conflict between the kitchen independence army and Then the military that's been going for many years. So yeah, I found myself like, you know, at the center of this story with all these different issues. And then of course, like $31 billion is, is the number that, you know, came later on in the report by the Global Witness? And yeah, it's just yeah, really, it's, you know, it was really incredible and shocking that this kind of an industry still exists in this, you know, in the 21st century.
Joah 30:40
Yeah, for sure. And you mentioned how, when you went there, you didn't quite know everything about it. And to piggyback on that, I think of all the issues that were coming out of Myanmar, and what was a very eventful last 10 years, this was probably not in the top five, or possibly even the top 10 of the issues that were being talked about and reported on concerned over. Of course, those who knew about the Jade issue knew how incredibly important it was and how many elements were brought into it as you learn when you reported there. But it wasn't one of those lead carrying stories as and to be fair, there were a lot of other important things going on in the country. But you referenced all these things that come into it that you have, you have so much heroin there are some workers are actually paid in heroin, you have the IDPs people being displaced because they live around that area, near slave labor. Extremely dangerous conditions, a lot of the ethnics are the ones who are facing it. And despite this being a projected $31 billion industry, there's not even enough infrastructure there for a basic school or electricity 24 hours a day. So the inequity is also quite shocking. And to bring it into more of a political landscape, even geopolitical, and perhaps where we are today. You in your reporting, it was referenced that during the transition period, Aung San Su Qi was quite concerned about what was going on the NLD, about the Jade mines and wanting to wrest control away from the military who was equally concerned that they would have to get as much as they could as fast as they could. So before they lost control of it, and that they're one of the things that really struck me in reading, learning more about it was this, this idea, this push that, that there was a desire to want to share access, and make it more equitable, and make sure that the different groups were also receiving their fair share. And I was just looking at this and thinking like, why would rich Chinese businessmen or powerful Burmese generals, why would they ever want to give up? What is this golden piggy bank that just keeps producing and keeps producing? What incentive? Would they ever have to want to share this and decrease this kind of endless source of profits that are breaking the backs of so many people underneath them? And looking at it from that perspective, it seems really quite depressing.
Moe 33:09
Yeah, no, it is. So yeah, like, I mean, thanks for mentioning all these, like important issues and factors around the date mentioned. And yeah, and of course, like all these, like billions of dollars, the biggest issue of you know, in this story is that like, you know, like apart, you know, beside all the like, you know, the drug problem, the conflict and you know, and all the human rights abuses surrounding the story, like the one of the biggest issues all these billions of dollars, like going away without you know, like the country actually getting anything through the taxes because most of these, the jig has been, like, yes, smuggled across the border. And you know, the money was going directly into the pockets of the people with like, links to the military and the military and, you know, in Chinese, like Chinese companies that are backing up the you know, Myanmar company name or companies from abroad. And you know, so it's, it's always like money could have been spent in, in the rebuilding of the country. I know it was, you know, it was all like going away, just disappearing away. Yeah.
Joah 34:26
Right. And referenced before this interview, we share a mutual friend in Malta now currently the Deputy Minister of energy and electricity in the in UG, I had a prior interview with him for those that are interested. And one of the things that really struck me from talking to him and the perspective he shared, was how focused he was on in seeing natural resources as a key area that if managed correctly, given the wealth of natural resources in Myanmar, could profoundly lead to peace and sustainability. And what he had spent so much of his career working on, and certainly, he's looking at natural resources across the country in all areas. But if you just hone in specifically on Jade, that's certainly a part of his, his field of what he's examining. And where how mismanaging something like Jade is leading to greater inequity, greater instability, greater turmoil and conflict, but if managed correctly, can do so much for so many people. And when I'm wondering now, and you might not have the answer to this, but I'm wondering if you've heard anything in the last nine months since the cool about the status of what's going on with these Jade minds at the moment.
Moe 35:39
I saw that like, like, during the winter when there were protests across the country everywhere. Like there was also like protests in Jade mines. And I see like all these Jade miners who were mostly like you were normally mostly only interested in finding Roger stones, they were also very much involved in the protests. And he was very strong. And there was of course, there was like the crackdowns military and you know, so yeah, it was really Parkin was also like, part of the whole idea because normally like, whatever, you know, whatever happens in other parts of the country in Pakistan is just about, like, you know, the mining continuing and people just want to keep mining, but, you know, in the past nine months, like they've been very much involved in ay ay, ay ay. Ay actually make it's the last time I heard about Packer was when they were like when they cut off the, like, telecoms in over there. And since then, actually, I haven't heard much.
Joah 36:50
Right. Okay, so moving on to the next area of sensitive subjects you covered before the coup was bro Hinga. And you went to those camps and took pictures of reality that many Burmese back home and cities didn't necessarily want to see. And when you went to these Rohingya camps, you made the decision here as as you did in the Jade camps and other places to stay locally, which meant that you were actually staying in the camps among the people. And of course, they're very fraught relations, given recent history between Bomar and Moringa. So I'm curious what it was, like for you the experience of staying side by side with Rohingya not just photographing them, but living among them for your time while you were there?
Moe 37:32
Well, I was, you know, because, well, I mean, one, like, I don't, I don't speak the language. And so I have to work with, you know, a translator, or fixer would like, you know, help me go around within the camps. And, and, and, you know, again, show me what, you know, what things happening in the camp. And also, you know, so that's why it's, it's, I need to spend even more time, you know, look, looking into this, and also, but, but but like, there's every night I have to, you know, I would be like spending all day there, but I have to go back, go to the cam every night because, you know, like, by seven o'clock camps would close for visitors. Yeah. So, but like, I think I felt that, like, it's this story. Like, it's, it's, you know, it's quite, it's also like, the issue has, it's been like, you know, very differently viewed, among other, you know, most of the people in Yama. So I need and, you know, like me being, you know, I'm also because I'm also in Yama, Palma. So I also need to understand myself what stories I need to like, you know, talk to as many, many people as possible and as I need to, like, you know, CBS, many people were saying, oh, you know, the stories coming out of the cams, or the stories by the Ranger, mostly, like, you know, bias reporting from international media, but like, for me to, you know, go past that I have to, I believe that I have to talk to as many people as possible and span as long as you know, as much time as possible. Yeah.
Joah 39:20
Right, and how was that experience, like we talked a bit about going to the Jade camps and how the landscape and the human drama that was playing out in the Jade camps, what an impact that made on you, personally, and then how you were able to capture that feeling an impression that it made on you into your photographs. Rohingya is a very Rohingya, the the people, the camps, the geography. Everything is very different from the Jade camps in kitchen. And yet the similarity is it can also make I've never been to either, but from what I've understood, it can make a very profound effect on someone or Arriving there even within the first five minutes. So, what personally what was the experience of coming into interaction with Rohingya in the Rohingya camps? For the first time? What made an impression on you?
Moe 40:12
Well, you know, because I was, it was, I remember this trip in 2014, when I went there, and there was, like, a huge health crisis in the camps. Because, because the authorities and the locals, like they kicked out some of the NGO operations, like, you know, going on inside the camps that, you know, like the NGOs that were like, providing health care services to the, to the IDPs. You know, they had to stop the operations. So, like, that time, there was a lot of like, like deaths and, you know, sicknesses going on in the cans, like, people were dying from like, No, you know, like, minor sicknesses. Like just like, like, you know, like, fever or cold or diarrhea. And it was, I was very, like, you know, which was, was very saddening, even for myself, we to, you know, to see, like, that this was happening in our, you know, in our own country, and, you know, it's was more saddening was, like, you know, it was really sad was not only this was happening, but you know, like, all the all my people, you know, majority of the people, you know, we all, you know, majority of us are like Buddhists, you know, we're supposed to have Anita and given, but, you know, like, men don't people don't have that, you know, they didn't have that with a ranger. And you were, it was, there was a big kind of, I really couldn't understand why, you know, like, why, you know, there was this, you know, like, huge mistress and all that. Yeah, so I was, so I wanted to, like, you know, in that story, I really want to try and to tell the story in a way that, you know, it's some, you know, from a universal point of view, you know, something that many people can relate to, like, you know, yeah, it was it was it was quite tough working on this. Yeah,
Joah 42:24
that's interesting, you say that, because I was in the country during that period, as well. And that was, the thing that stands out to me was that, as people know, and as we talked before this interview, my background, so much of it is within the monasteries, the meditation, the different traditions. And one of the things that really blew me away when the Rohingya crisis hit, was the lack of compassion, the lack of meta, and I felt like even if one is holding on to a different reality, you're arguing that this didn't happen in this way it happened in this way. Instead, there's a way to say, well, you know, we, in terms of how the conflict has developed, you know, I hold on to my view. And, and, and I think this is where the media is missing it. But you can express that while still having a basic compassion for human suffering. And having the meta manifest in a way that you recognize that a fellow human being, not even human being you could just say, a fellow living organism in the world was suffering, and that someone who had spent their whole life cultivating metta and wisdom did not want the suffering to proceed. And I was really startled by how seldom I was able to find that view expressed. And even if if one knows the traditional way, that the Buddha encouraged metta to be spread and the way that it's still done in monasteries, where you start with a, a respected person, then you go to you go on to a neutral person and etc, you go down the line, eventually you try to send meta even to someone you have difficult feelings with. And not seeing that practiced, was really shocking, even as I say, even if one is going to hold the different views of what happened, when and to whom and if they're really a citizen or not, leave all that aside, but just having the basic human or you could say the overtly Buddhist compassion for a fellow human regardless of the circumstances. And it's interesting that in your work, you tried to cover an angle that would perhaps bring this out, and we're not going to discuss exactly the specific story you did cover because that would that would be a bit too specific in terms of what what you're working on and the nature of it, but But suffice it to say I did see it and it and I completely see how what you what you were covering was really a basic element of people's emotional and individual stories universally across time and space and religion and culture and such. I didn't know that that was being done intentionally to one Want to encourage some kind of metta or compassion to take place, but I can certainly see that now? What was the reaction? Did you did you feel that that it did have that impact, that it did awaken in some people some sense of compassion and metta that that had been absent before?
Moe 45:17
Yeah, no, it did, actually was when I was very old, when I was showing this work in many different places, especially within the country. And it was, it was actually like, shown in, you know, in public places, and, you know, as a projection. And as I could see that, like, man, despite the story being about Ranger, I could feel that, you know, the reaction, there was a very, like, emotional reaction from the people. And that point, it looks like, they have forgotten, you know, the whole, like, debate about Ranger or Bengali all this, like terms and wars and historical stuff, and where they were just focused on what's like happening, you know, like, what, you know, what the story is about, and it's because it's, it was about it was, you know, anybody could relate to, like, you know, to the story where it's, you know, it's about, like family reunions or like, connections? Or, you know, so it's, it's when I felt that I could I, you know, I really, I was really satisfied with that work, actually, because I've covered a lot of stories and, you know, about about Ranger, but that that was the one work, where I felt that, you know, it's, it's, it was, it was quite good for the people to see, because, I mean, they, you know, because there was a lot of reportage by the main mainstream media, on the Ranger and is, you know, every time it's always like, the, you know, the victims and everything, but, but in this story, like, it's something that, um, younger people could also relate. So in that sense, I think it was, it was a different reaction. And I think it's more positive or more hopeful one.
Joah 47:06
That's great. That's great to hear that reaction. And just a couple other things to touch upon. Before we get to the events since February 1, you referenced at the very beginning of the conversation that you had the chance to follow Duncan Suchi, on the, on the campaign trail early on, and that this was, I mean, she's obviously, at this point, she was a democracy icon, and, but personally speaking, you mentioned how she was just beloved in your family. So what and at this point, you're, you know, you're basically a nobody, you're, you're just holding a camera up just trying to get a good shot, trying to figure out what you're doing with your, with your life in your profession. And, and, and being in proximity to her. So what was that experience like, of, of trauma of being closer to, you know, something, someone that was somewhat of a living legend, in that time and trying to capture these pictures? And did you and then in later periods, did you have more chances to, to photograph her as she became more of a public figure?
Moe 48:06
Well, I think yeah, so. So when I, when I, when I photographed this 2012 by election campaigns, you know, it's, it was something really very special for me, and it was, you know, also special for me, like to witness, you know, myself as a, you know, as, you know, as somebody who was young who grew up in New Hampshire, but no, we like, for, you know, when I was a child, I remember, like, like, I knew I remember the stories, but how, you know, it's even dangerous to have like a little picture of onsen, sitio generals, and in your wallet is not, that's not very fake thing. So, when I, when I actually had the chance to see her, like, out there with, you know, it was like a reunion, you know, it was many, like, there was this, like, large groups of people, you know, actually like, all around the country, like different different ethnic groups and different people, when they were like, welcoming her as she comes to do the violation campaigns. It was it was something really special and I think, you know, that's also what made me like, they want to like continue like, you know, with this work like it's, it's not just about her or like, you know, it's all the opening up above the country, but I could see something really hopeful you know, as also for the country was like, just because he was just opening up and genuine so it was really special. But then, like, over the years, like, it's, it's there was like, we felt like we were you know, we were we were like challenge with or tested with all these different, you know, multiple different issues. Like, you know, the Avenger, and then you know, like anti Muslim sentiment across the country and then all these like, like, you know, Ultra, like nationalist groups and like, several different issues came along and like so when I photographed her again in 2015. What I felt that it was, was the becomes different, you know, and even the election campaign. I mean, we're still very strong people like very, you know, people show a lot of people like support her in almost all countries. It was it was not like that reunion that I photographed in 2012. Now, it's a lot more complicated. And there's a lot of layers, a lot of detail. So it's it was different. Yeah.
Joah 51:01
It was very interesting. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And the last thing I want to mention, before we get to current events, you would just mentioned to me before we went to the interview about going to Pollock monastery in Yulin and some just some backstory there. And this is not an importance of topic like the other three. But being having a background of before the coup, at least, this was a platform that went into a lot of Buddhism, stories, and we still have a lot of meditators listening, I think this will be a nice thing to include about your your experiences that at Paul can who you photographed
Moe 51:41
there. Yeah, like, so I was, I had this assignment to make a portrait of this architect. And I was I was when my editor like told me the place to go and was quite, I was quite surprised, because this architect is a Vietnamese, like, architect. And he's actually a really well known architect, and he has like a big architecture firm in hochiminh. City. And, but then he is like, when I was mayor, when my editor said, like, oh, you should go to this Buddhist monastery to photograph this. I thought maybe, did he build a monastery? But actually, no, he was, he's just like, he's meditating there. And he has been like, two years, like, you know, in this, in this industry, like meditating. And I, you know, it was really interesting to see like, someone like that committed, you know, because when you are like, successful, you know, like, professional like Logitech. And when you have, like, the tablet form that gets you, I'm sure you must be busy. But when I talked to him, he was saying, At my firm, it's when when I he said, like, when I, when I, when I recruit like, I keep architects to work at my firm, or like, like, the first thing he says is that they have to meditate, like one hour before going to work. And everybody has to meditate, like if they want to work at this firm. So it's really like committed to meditation. And his, his wife, and also his, his child, also, you know, joins him at the Buddhist monastery, and they will join the meditation as well. So he spends like, most of the year, in part then at his company, so it's really amazing. Yeah.
Joah 53:31
Well, that's great. And did you personally or your family have much of a background in Buddhism or meditation?
Moe 53:37
Well, yeah, like when I was in high school, like my, at my school, my our headmaster would always, you know, the principal of the school would always like access to meditate, like, at least like 1015 minutes in the morning, every day. Yeah. So that's, you know, I had a bit of practice back then. Yeah.
Joah 53:58
Yeah. Yeah. Great. So moving on now to a more serious topic, looking at the coup since February 1, and some of the work that you've done since the coup was initiated on in February. So just looking general at first, you know, when the coup broke on the morning of February 1, and you're a photo journalist, I'm sure in your mind, you start like everyone start to reorient yourself, what does this mean? What's going to happen next? And then, perhaps several hours or several days later, where do I fit into this? Who am I going to become? What am I going to do? So take us through that kind of internal mental formulation in the hours or days after that happened?
Moe 54:44
Well, like so. I learned about the coop like at 6am in the morning when I got a call from my colleague at the New York Times he she called me and she said, you know there's been a coop in your country state she's called have from another country, and I was like, I couldn't believe it like, because because, I mean, we knew that this might happen, you know, but then I thought, like, Okay, this will be like, very, like stupid for something like that to happen. And, and I couldn't believe it. But then the first like, the first really the first reaction for me, he was like, it wasn't about my work, you know, it wasn't about how I was going to cover it, it was about it was immediately went to my social media and went to my phone, and he was like, clean up and delete some of the stuff that I've posted in the past, and I, you know, and and I also, like, clean up my place. You know, like, yeah, it's, it's, I just wanted to make that point, I wasn't sure. You know, like, I wanted to prioritize my safety and the safety of my family first. And then, you know, so I had to clean up the house. And after that, like, we went out to get some money at the ATM machines, there's like, always, you know, all these, like, long lines of people. And then you'll be with all the scenes on the street was like, very curious, because I could see that many people. Like, were also just like me, like, they couldn't believe that this has happened, and people were not sure what's going to happen, you know, what is it going to be like, you know, so I could see like, oh, elderly, elderly, elderly people, they also like, you know, like, grabbing like, rice and eggs and while in wherever they can like to stock it. So there was a scene, and I wanted to photograph that, but at the same time, I had to do like, you know, what I need to do for my family as well. Because I'm also part of this. And also, I wasn't sure whether, like, you know, at that stage, I wasn't sure whether my profession is, like still exists, you know, like, safely or not. But then like, By midday, like, after I've done what I need to do, for how long there was a scene that I wouldn't forget, like, I, you know, there was some music, some proper, you know, like, some songs playing like, loud music, it was the pro military songs, and, you know, national songs. And there was like this, like, hundreds of people, you know, group of people like, walking out of this place, and they were all it was in a line, and they were all like, kind of cheering and, and marching in a celebratory, like feeling that was when I saw that I thought it was really a URI. And you know, I was really strange. And I that moment, I just started like, taking pictures. I didn't care. And, you know, I just started taking pictures of these people, this, you know, pro military schoolers. And then, you know, I started like, taking and at that point, I said, Okay, I gotta take, you know, I got to document this, we got to take pictures. And then I replied to my editor, who, you know, since early morning, asked me if you if I want to work with them, they said, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to work. And since that day, I started photographing the coop and the protests, the event that follow for the next two and a half months, three months, yeah, every day I was on the street that follows.
Joah 58:31
So in your previous work, you were going to places like the Jade mines in Kachin State, and the Rohingya camps and other places where there are some really bad things happening in society to disadvantage people vulnerable people that you were there trying to document and to bring back not only to the world, but to your own people back in the cities, and Bamar society. And now you find yourself in a place where your own society, your country, your community, everything is unraveling month by month, day by day, and you're documenting it as a photojournalist. So what was that experience like to be so close and personal to not be an outsider and someone else's situation, perhaps unfortunate set of events, but actually, to be a documentary as well as a participant in your own society starting to come apart?
Moe 59:26
I mean, on the first day, I was busy trying to you know, like, was it was all very confusing. But at the same time, I had to deliver my pictures, I have to do my work and you know, I wasn't sure whether it's, it's, you know, like how safe it is to work is it for a journalist or not, you know, it's so I didn't have so much time to think. But then on the second day, it was there was I remember, people started like making you know, in the evening The people started making the metal noise campaign, you know, like hitting pots and pans to make a metal noise in the evening. And this was when I felt like, okay, it's really like, it's really, like, amazing to hear people do that and to to see to witness this. And so, you know, I, I felt like I want to join and participate as well. But at the same time that, you know, I, that's when I had to ask myself like, Okay, do I want to? Like, be, you know, do I want to? You know, what do I do? Like, do I want to be a journalist who, or photographer who documents this? You know, or do I want to be involved personally, as you know, so it's, that's why I had to, like, kind of draw the line and then made it made a decision, I made a decision to just be, you know, objective and neutral, I just, you know, because it's, it's, especially in a story like this, it's really important that I just do my job. Because, you know, because, I mean, like, I believe that, like, you know, we have like different roles, many different roles to play in this whole thing. And for me, my role is just to document you know, what happens next. And to do that safely, I need to be like, ethically, very careful, you know, with the lines that I might be crossing, you know, so I just decided to just like, you know, document that. So for example, you know, in the next days or weeks to come, there's like moments where I'm like, you know, there's a lot of people, you know, there was this first couple of weeks of the protests, that almost felt like celebrations rather than protests, because there's just so many different groups of people coming together. For, you know, for one, cause, and it was for me, like, I had a lot of feelings, mixed feelings as well. You know, like, I would admit, like, you know, very often I felt I felt the temptation to join. But then, at the same time, I couldn't do that, like, you know, when I'm working for a big news organization, and when I want to be a journalist, just does my job like so, you know, it's it was quite tough. But then I, you know, I got used to it, I go, well, as the story gets complicated as the crackdowns started, there was more, you know, more and more important things happening. And I realized that, for me, it's more important to keep photographing what happens. Yeah.
Joah 1:02:44
Yeah. And you mentioned wanting to be objective in your work as a photographer. And yet, especially in that early period, when the coup and the crackdown was happening. It's a, I think, many observers would overwhelmingly feel that this there, there wasn't a definite evil and bad on one side. And so how did you strive to be impartial and objective when one side was just displaying tactics and mindsets and strategies that, for lack of a better word, or maybe there is no better word? At least in my opinion, just pure evil that was coming out of it?
Moe 1:03:22
Yeah. Like, yeah, no, it's, it's, you're right. I mean, they're often very, very, you know, moments, like, especially because, like, when the crackdown started, was, like, very brutal. It was, you know, I have never ever seen in my life, like, you know, something like this happening. You know, in my own country. I mean, I know that there was the 1988 revolution, and also also, like, you know, brutal crackdowns, and, but this is probably the first time like, I mean, there was the suffering revolution in 2007. But back then, it was, like, we've been going for like weeks, it was only for, you know, a shorter period of time, was just for a few days. But this time, we went on and on and I I photographed at least like, a few dozens funerals. Many people that and, you know, many people injured. You know, it's very, like, I get very emotional. But I for me, and be these times, I just whenever it gets, like, difficult, like, like that, like I you know, just keep telling myself, okay, like, just try to make, you know, like, just try to make the picture. You know, just focus focus in my viewfinder and, you know, trying to capture what's happening and try to, you know, like symbolizes in the best way possible of like, you know, of the atrocities that was happening and, and, and of course, like, there are times where I couldn't make it It was too, too intense that I couldn't, you know, keep keep shooting, like, for example, there was this funeral of, of, of a protester that that was killed in nodoka party and his, his daughter and five year old daughter was crying at a funeral. And she like she, you know, was like, it was just entirely crying, but I could see that she understood. She wasn't crying, like, you know, just like a child, she, she understood, you know, that her loss and, you know, like, she really understood what was happening. And, you know, like, at that moment, I just, I had to stop taking the picture. Yeah,
Joah 1:05:44
I'm glad you mentioned this emotional element of it, because from my side, when you, you would send me the links of your work, so I can prepare for the interview, and look through all the different articles and pictures and whatnot. And when I got to the pictures on the coup, I was overwhelmed. I mean, I seen these pictures before, some of them probably yours Exactly. And some just general, but I haven't seen them for a while, and I started crying during some of the pictures, I was saying, you know, I, I just broke down in a couple of them. And it just brought back these memories of how it felt at the time of seeing these, these vulnerable people that, that, that just wanted freedom, and we're just doing whatever they could to resist against an organized military and to see them, you know, to see them wearing cheap plastic hard hats that aren't going to stop anything and, you know, make shift masks that they're wearing, and whatever, you can't even call it body armor or whatever, whatever they they kind of patch together in hopes of preventing whatever injury I mean, it just it just tore me up seeing this that, you know, that people had to be put in this position than that, and that these people were, you know, they're coming from being you know, bike mechanics, or taxi drivers or university students or waiters or businessmen or whatever else they were, and that they're now having to dress themselves and prepare themselves for this absolute cruelty and and these you know, and your your your pictures do an excellent job, it's somewhat ironic compliment, because it does an excellent job bringing out the path Oh, son, the, the pain and the suffering of what you're seeing. But just reminded me of what of the unfairness and the inequity and the the rage of seeing these people having be put in this position. And, and being so vulnerable and being captured being so vulnerable against such a terror that was coming at them. And it, you know, brought that all back seeing that and it also made me reflect on the fact that we're not seeing these pictures today. You know, the terror is not stopping and the pain and the suffering are not stopping. But we're not the the world's attention was really drawn first by the kind of parade protest atmosphere you mentioned, and then by the the crackdown, and the terror, but the world's attention was really drawn by the power and the drama of these, these contrasting pictures. And especially, you know, the pictures that just made your heart bleed and made you make people tear up, and the stories that went behind them that they were really grabbing the world's attention for a period of time. And that wasn't going to be forever, the world has a very short attention span. But it was speaking and it made me reflect on the fact that I don't feel like I've seen a picture recently from the protests in Myanmar that have that have grabbed my emotion in the same way for some time. And, and that doesn't mean these things are happening. They're just happening outside of a lot of journalists and photo journalists being able to capture it the way it was before. So for this is more of the the opinion and the the feeling of someone who's more removed from this, but this is your country in your profession. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the kind of images that were being captured and coming out of that time and where we are today with that?
Moe 1:09:09
Well, you know, it's it's during these days, like, I mean, to be honest, I didn't actually have time to really reflect on, you know, on, on the things that I was seeing every day and it was definitely like I was on the streets. I was out there, you know, trying to be at a place that I need to be like, you know, so every morning I was wondering, Where's the crank gang going to happen with the place? You know, it's that's, that's, you know, like it's, it was almost like I was but it was important for me, like, you know, to be at the place where it gets more most like the you know, like, dangerous and they're Legion, so I would leave home in the world. Early morning, grab my breakfast, and you know, like, you know, go different places. And I would like, you know, to be honest, it's I was, I was, by chance, you know, mostly by chance I was there at the major places of crackdown. And then I would come back, you know, late in the evening, I would need to edit, I will need to file so that the pictures get published. You know, so it carried on like that for like two and a half months until, by mid April, I remember like, that's when the protests almost stopped. You know, because it was just getting too deadly. And every every, every time there is a protest, there is like somebody dying, somebody shot and killed. So it was just getting too dangerous, risky. So you know, and so there was like, protesters, there was no more protesters on the streets and things kind of like quiet down. And that, at that moment, it's, you know, I started like, feeling, having, you know, like, I started having reflections on what I saw over the past like weeks. And it's to be honest, like, it was quite scary. And you know, because there was also like, a lot of close calls that I you know, that I got almost arrested at some point. There was one time when I was like photographing a group of protesters, like posting a signboard in the center of the city. And I was photographing them, and I saw like two military trucks coming. And they. And when I saw them, like, I immediately got into my car and started the engine, I was a little too late, because one of the trucks, they bumped my car hit my car, like you to try to stop me from going away. And at that point, I was just thinking, No, I can't, I can't be arrested, I can't be arrested. And I and then I didn't have time to even think like it just, I already my foot already, like you know, guess, you know, like, get stacked on the guests to the bottom. And I just drove away and I managed to escape. But you know, that was like, there was like other like close calls as well. But But like, when I stopped working, I mean, I didn't realize all this, you know how scary it was, you know how dangerous or risky it was, but only after I stopped working and you know, all these things started reflecting. And, you know, when there was this, like eerie normality and silence that, that I couldn't even photograph because because at that point, like in late April, in May, and in the following months, it became almost impossible for us to go out on the streets with a camera. So at that point, I started late, so I'm not you know, I try not to be involved in any other activity rather than my job. So at that point, I become like a civilian or journalist who's not working anymore. And at that point, I started to get a little scary, because even though I didn't do any, like, like any, you know, and any, like, unlawful thing or any scene, but you know, it's, I felt like I've done things that are wrong. I was probably just being paranoid as well, you know?
Joah 1:13:34
Yeah, well, that feeling that you're doing something wrong. I mean, that's the self censorship of a totalitarian society that you start to rein yourself in. And, you know, I was, I was in Myanmar for many years before the transition. And although I'm privileged in being a foreigner, and not having the same level of by any means of dangers of local Burmese, I did, I did spend years having to watch everything I did every conversation, I had everything I threw in the trash can, every electronic communication, every phone, conversation, every, every everything that was done, you know, every conversation that was done in a public place, and there was this really strange feeling of living in a totalitarian state where, if I would, I would, I would constantly have this balance of on one hand feeling if I if I wasn't talking about certain things that I wanted to say, or I was censoring myself too much, I would feel kind of cowardly and silent. And then the minute that I crossed over that line and started to say something, anything, even something very small, I would feel guilty and, and a little bit nervous that I had gone too far. And it was like I couldn't I was either on one side or the other. I either felt I either felt guilty and nervous or I felt, you know, cowardly and and silenced. And I I just had to realize, well, this is kind of the, the the the experience that comes and living in a place like this where you just, you have to censor and watch every single thing you do, and you start to take responsibility for, for or you, you know, I would start to feel kind of bad or guilty about things that should not be an issue in any any other country in the world. But you know, you just internalize this kind of dysfunctional logic here.
Moe 1:15:23
Right? Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's exactly it's, I know. But then at the same time, like, I was, it was, for me, like, I was just, you know, it's, it's my, I just have to deal with it, you know, I have to deal with it myself. And I just have to make sure that I'm ready, you know, when the, you know, when I when I can photograph again, and when I can, when things happen that I can document again. Another thing, you know, and then after that, like, we had, like, COVID, in July, in June, in June and July, and you know, like, this past year, we had COVID, as well, but it wasn't that serious, compared to many other countries. And this year, we had like, really, very scary, like, COVID episode did. And that was like, that kind of distracted everything away, because everybody got sick, like, my parents got sick. My sister got sick. You know, I don't know. And almost anyone, like, who doesn't have a family member sick at home. So you know, then it got all of us like, distracted away for for a month or two there. Yeah, like so. But then I think it was, yeah. After, like, like, even like, you know, I we survived it. And but, yeah, like, it's it's, we had a we had a rough year. Yeah.
Joah 1:16:56
Yeah, yeah, to say to say lightly, you know, and tagging on to my reaction, the emotional reaction I had looking at your pictures recently of february, march. That happened in the same week that something else happened, that was quite interesting to reflect on these together, that we have close friends, who were nuns, and soldiers climb the walls of the nunnery at midnight, and they stormed in the nunnery and attacked based on based on someone who had informed on them for, for some association or something that, you know, who knows, but they, they, they stormed into midnight, they were not wearing uniforms, and they just had normal clothes and, and weapons. And when the head nun asked them, who they were, why they were there at midnight, they just started hitting her over the head with the gun and they started attacking the other nuns and, and these images and videos were sent to me as we were trying to help them with medical and the trauma there, you know, about 15 Young nuns, you know, ranging from, you know, six, seven years old and Nunnery who were, you know, completely traumatized by seeing their, their caregiver treated like this, but the the images and the videos came to us and they were, they were hard even describing this, I mean, it was so bad but images of a, the nuns robes that were taken off and, and put on the floor later and photographed and there was just this, this dark crimson red all over the robes. And seeing that contrast along with the videos of the screaming the yelling the shooting the beating as one friend who's been in conflict zones told me it's actually worse to hear someone else being beaten than to be beaten yourself. And so this and this also, you know, these this single picture of this nun, this, these pink nuns robes covered in blood laying on the floor, you know, this also, as your pictures just drove me to tears and knowing the story behind it, not just the picture but knowing the story behind it, it was so and so this made me reflect like I know these things are happening I deal with I'm I'm involved every day with as much as I can from being abroad and helping in any way I can. And yet somehow seeing this single picture and knowing the story behind it affected me in ways that I hadn't been affected for months and months, you know, just touched some part of me that just drove you know, the motivation, the anger, the tears, just everything. And it just sounds simple and obvious to say, but it's just that a single image does so much you know, and of course Vietnam War was there images that will live in the American mindset forever of how they're just burned and etched in our memory of certain things that were able to be caught. And so in both of these things, your early pictures in this recent isn't what the nuns. It makes me reflect on the role That photo journalism can play and the need to in some ways, it feels kind of unfortunate because like, you have to go to places as a photojournalist where you expect evil to transpire, you have to go to places where you expect people to be, to be to be brutally attacked, and worse, possibly killed. And you have to try to take these pictures of the worst possible suffering and tragedy. And, and yet, these are the images that will speak to people somehow, simply knowing what is happening, hearing the stories and hearing the information, hearing the data, or the details of operation are things that are happening, somehow a single image can still change the course of history. And so you cannot underestimate the importance of getting these images that can turn public opinions somewhere else, not not not to suggest miracles, but that can at least raise the level of awareness or engagement or involvement and seeing something so terrible transpire that just doesn't, it just can't happen without seeing that image. And so I wonder what your thoughts are on this being your profession of that contrast of the the importance of the finding these kinds of images as they happen documenting the reality and yet the the tragedy of having to, you know, of having to, to, to document something that is just terrible for everyone involved for the experience of it happening and for everyone to have to witness it happening. And, you know, when I shared that the pictures of the nun nuns robe and blood on my social media went viral to a small degree, at least as far as my platform is. And it was that kind of feeling like I have shared something that no one is going to like to see that everyone is going to feel pain with. And yet this has to be shared for them to feel like I do. And so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on all that.
Moe 1:21:53
It's, I mean, of course, like, there's, there were so many different things, you know, evil, bad, bad things happening in many different places. And I couldn't, I could only go to one place at a time. And so it's, and we had, like, you know, there were like many photographers, and for a journalist, it's not just me, like, you know, many other photo journalists were like working as, you know, taking the same race, if not more, as me and you know, we were all like trying to tell, like, you know, do our job, like in different places and trying to capture what was happening, but for me, it was, it's really important to, it's not just like, capturing, you know, what's happening in front of you, or, like, you know, just pressing the shutter button, it's, it's also to try and you know, you see that all you see all these like, you know, suffering atrocities, tragedy, brutal crackdowns, but if the pitch so, for me, it's really important to get the picture which really summarize all in a way symbolize it symbolic symbolize the, the event that happened, it's not just like, a picture of the event. It's also it's to note, I really need to try and make like pictures that will be like iconic for you know, what, what was happening, you know, for the visually symbolizes what was what was happening, the coverage of the people and the suffering that the crackdown for dance for, for each topic. For each angle of the story. I needed one, like, I mean, of course, I was taking like 1000s of pictures every day hundreds and 1000s. But I would in the end, it's important for me to like have like one picture that would tell the best of me, okay, the protests, the battles. And then the killing is that that the funerals the nighttime be like candlelight vigils. So I need to have like, one picture that strong for each topic. And that was quite, but you know, but then the difference this time is like, it's unlike the previous revolutions the country had. It's this time, like, everybody has a mobile phone and everybody can take pictures. So even if it's not a professional like me, or like all my colleagues, it's, it's we still it's really amazing. And really, I think it's really good that we are still seeing pictures even in these times and these months, these recent months where like, it's very difficult for professional for a journalist or journalist to go and go and, you know, take pictures in places. They were still seeing pictures from, you know, even like very remote areas of the country. It's you know, it's it's, of course, like thanks to the like the like phones and technology, so it's and also the people who can, you know, who don't we know that when they see something happening, they should like, you know, to document it. So, you know, it's, it's really, I think it's really good that you know, this, this is still being documented.
Joah 1:25:19
Yeah, yeah, sure. And you referenced, one of the pictures that you took that really struck you and stayed with you was this funeral of a father and the five year old, who seemed to have some awareness what was happening? Are there any other pictures that from that period that really have stayed with you till the day?
Moe 1:25:37
Well, there was this picture of the protest, it's probably early day or early days on when I was near the city hall, in Yangon. And like, there was a line of policemen just standing guard and there's like, there's like barricades and on the, on the, on the other side of the barricades, it's, it's all these people protesting and, until being and actually, like, they were all these people. This was the early days, maybe like a couple of weeks, or no, not like only a few days from since the protests started. And this was the was the moment when like, many people, like people were shouting, like people's police, people's police and trying to convince the police to, to stand with the people instead of like, following orders from the military. And I think like that picture really kind of stayed with me as well, because it's really kind of, you know, like, symbolizes the protests that was happening, you know, people were actually trying to convince the police to be with them. That was really special. We Interesting. Well, yeah, no, and then, yeah, no, it's I, there was a lot of like, it's a lot of funerals. And so but then also, like, one picture of the, the, you know, the crackdown, which is when you paint this picture with all this, like smoke and tear gas, and, and then, and then the protesters are like defending backward like firecrackers and fire extinguishers. You know, that scene is also like, quite remarkable for me.
Joah 1:27:24
So you've said before that you're not into being political, meaning, like advocating the right and wrong of things, but rather showing the impact of policies. You You made that reference before the coup regarding the work you were doing with Ranga Jade mines, everything else? I'm curious if that mindset still animates your work today with the coup? Or have you taken on a different feeling with the work you're doing?
Moe 1:27:50
Well, I just know that like, you know, so for me, in since the early days, I had to think like, Okay, what do I want to like, what's the most important thing for me and it's, like, firstly, in this situation, I like to, like, you know, to be able to do my work safely. It's like the priority. And, you know, for also for the safety of my family, of course, like, you know, and I think it's, it's, it's, it's just like, it's more than, like, what I feel personally, this time, I feel because, you know, it's I'm also part of the story, like, even though I'm just like, you know, I'm just doing my work as a photojournalist, and I'm also part of the story because it's, it also affects me and my family and my friends and my enrollment, you know, it's, it's, it's like, it's impossible to say, and not like, you know, personally involved, but at the same time, like, for my job, it's just it, you know, like, when the, when the authorities or when the military, they want to, they want to, like accuse journalists, when the arrest of a journalist what, what they wanted to say is that, you know, yet journalists are not just like doing the job, but also like involved and, and, you know, doing more than a journalist you do, but you have to, I have to be like, very careful with, you know, with the limits and with, with the way I work, and what are the activities that I do? So, yeah, no, I just try. This is all like, it's very important for me because I want to be able to keep working.
Joah 1:29:33
Yeah. So moving today and getting caught up to speed. You were the unanimous winner at the bayou war correspondents award. This was launched after Normandy, Normandy invasions of the press came along and was able to photograph and record that and it's really an award that celebrates the freedom of the press, especially in under difficult circumstances. And you're the unanimous winner of this prestigious award. And yet, you could not publicly accept the honor, you know, you couldn't even name for it. What was it, like, having to accept this award anonymously for all of the hard work that you've done and not be able to reveal your name with it?
Moe 1:30:23
Well, I actually it was, it was quite weird. I mean, I've had like, a few awards before. And I And it's, it's, but this is the first time I, you know, it's, you know, I've had it, like, anonymously, and it's a pleasure, actually. I mean, of course, it's like, it's a bit weird. And I, you know, it's, but I, but more importantly, I, it's, I think I'm, and I'm, you know, I, I think it's better this way, and it's, I'm proud, because, like, it's the anonymous but it's, it's not just I feel that it's not just me, the price is being awarded to like, because there's all these like other photojournalism for journalists, you know, who have been, like, risking a lot of work, you know, everyday face, like, you know, like, like, life risk, and, you know, despite all the risks, they keep going there and working, you know, we all share the same risk and everybody work on, you know, like, you know, as, as best as we can to, you know, to tell the story to document this. So, I think the non enmity kind of, it's important in that way that, you know, it's it kind of represents not just me as one photographer, but it's, even though it's just, it's the word, the word is for my work, but it's, it represents, like, all the other, like, fellow journalists fit off foot photographers, for the Japanese back home wolf being like doing the work, you know, as much as I'd been doing.
Joah 1:31:58
Yeah, yeah. Right, that's really a beautiful answer. And recognizing the achievements and the sacrifices that others have made in the in the profession, is, I imagine it must be somewhat strange to be disassociate yourself with a career you've worked so hard for and built up. And at this time, you the work you're doing has to be separated with everything you've actually done to get to this point.
Moe 1:32:22
Yeah, well, I mean, like, I'm just happy that I can, I'm just happy that, like, the anonymous, he also helps me to be in a way to, to keep to keep staying safe. And, and when the time and opportunity comes to, for me to be able to keep working. And, for me, that's the most important thing right now, you know, just to, you know, like, it's to keep like to keep being able to stay safely and, you know, work and try and work when I can, that's a priority.
Joah 1:32:58
Okay, so at the moment, you're outside of Myanmar, you've received this very prestigious award, and you're choosing to go back into the country knowing the dangers and the conflict and continue your profession, can you share a bit about your thinking and your reasoning of why you're choosing to go back into a conflict zone and continue on the work of documenting it?
Moe 1:33:26
Well, I think so. So, you know, like, I really needed to come out because, not because I wanted to, like, run or escape from it, but it was more because I weren't, I needed a break in I needed, I felt like I needed a distance from you know, like, it was I was to incite too much inside the story and too much part of the story and I, for a few months, I couldn't also, you know, I wasn't able to photograph anything. So, you know, it's, I think it was important for me to take fresh, you know, like fresh perspective. And, and, but then I realized I, it's, you know, because I see that there's still some chance for me to go back into, you know, to try and maintain my safety and like to try and do I just have to find a new approach, you know, to keep telling the story. So, and I, whenever there's still a chance that I really want to take it and I really want to go back. And I That's why you know, I'm hoping to go back to Yamaha and as soon as I can, and you know, and now I plan to be there as long as I can live, like safely to keep working as a as a photographer. Yeah.
Joah 1:34:48
I see. I see. We really wish you the best of luck and safety in going back there and continue to support you and everyone and all we can from this platform and one of the Thank you for coming on. But more importantly, just want to thank you for your work of documenting the reality that you're seeing that as I've referenced in my emotional reaction to seeing things I already knew and the emotional reaction to this picture of the nuns robes and blood, that there is, sure I don't have to tell you this. There's a power in the image and your work and documenting and capturing that power of the image in what you've already done and what you're going on to do and the sacrifices you're making. In doing so. You are bringing the reality of the scene to so many people and touching them in ways you'll probably never know. And for those that have been moved by that it's a thank you in a recognition from so many for for being able to do that work.
Moe 1:35:47
Well, no thank you very much for the opportunity to speak inside the Amazon.
Joah 1:36:26
After today's discussion, it should be clear to everyone just how dire the situation is in Myanmar. We are doing our best to shine a light on the ongoing crisis. And we thank you for taking the time to listen. If you found today's talk of value, please consider passing it along to friends in your network. And because our nonprofit is now in a position to transfer funds directly to the protest movement, please also consider letting others know that there is now a way to give that supports the most vulnerable and to those who are specially impacted by this organized state terror. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form of currency or transfer method. Every cent goes immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. donations go to support such causes as a civil disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guest you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called Better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fun. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website, which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma one word spelled b e t t e r b u r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration. Hello