Transcript: Episode #102: A Voice of Conscience
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Ma Thida, which appeared on May 5, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 02:51
I'm so pleased to be joined by Matsuda, who is the author of prisoner of conscience my steps through insane. We met several years ago in the Chinatown apartment of Montana gaming, we are introduced. And we're so fortunate to meet again a few months ago in New York, where we were able to set up this podcast interview and I am just so thrilled to be able to talk about your life and experience and as well as the intersection between meditation and social engagement that you lay out in your book. So Martina, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.
Ma Thida 03:29
Thank you so much. I'm happy to repeat you. Okay.
Host 03:33
Yeah, yeah. So I want to go into what your book lays out and really picking up from the years 1988 on before we get into the events you describe in your book, can you give a little bit of background information and description leading up to 1988? What was happening in your life and your background as well as what was happening in Myanmar at that time prior to the more significant events that started in 88?
Ma Thida 04:04
Well, you see, I was born in 1966, and so called socialist government. In D it is it was a military government. They started in 1962 already. So throughout my life, it was still under somehow military government and you know, even though it's called themselves the socialist government, and I was brought up in capital form a capital city Yanko. And my parents are none Burma. But the also from pretty far area, even though we settled in Yanko. But I was so lucky to have my grandparents from my mother's side. So since I was young, and I pretty much aware of what's going on through, I spend time together as with my grandfather and my father, they were listening to the BBC war service, and BBC by me service. So I pretty much, you know, knowing the hearing knowledge, and I also was lucky enough to go to other parts of the country apart from NEM, Django. So were with my grandparents in Moulmein in mon state and I were in Shansi, Tseebo. Most of my cousins lived there. So I think I witnessing the differences of the privileges and the other things by on my own eyes. So that also makes me pretty much aware individuals, you know, so I also was a bookworm. And I read a lot and then I also tried to write something. So then I became a short story writer in early 80s, just before the 98. So I think a lot of the autobiographies by independence fighter and some other well known philanthropist making me pretty much interested in this kind of the resistance and philanthropy walk. So in any 88, I was pretty much a lot about what's going on. And then yeah, I took back in the demonstration. And, yeah, that that's the beginning. Yeah,
Host 06:51
thank you for that. And now you're bringing us up to date with 1988. And from 88, on, which is a very significant set of years for anyone knowing about Myanmar history, you describe in more detail in your book, what was happening in those years and your relation to that movement. For those listeners who might not know the events leading up to 1988? And what was happening in Myanmar at the time, can you give a brief overview of those events, and then the place that you had in them?
Ma Thida 07:20
Yeah, in 98 Did you know The SNS we notice about what's going on, you know, it was pretty heartbreaking. In in March 9088, and at the time, I was in my final year medical school and I having noticing about the bloodshed prick crackdown, in Rangoon Institute of Technology. And, you know, it was pretty alarming. And then, you know, we were at the time or the medical students were pretty much shock to see how comes a government can kill students easily and, and then, you know, we took part in the demonstration but even these demonstrators has been killed again by the military government, a socialist government didn't know especially the incidents in Rangoon general hospital they just randomly chewed to the hospital and some patients and some medical parcels were hit by the shooting something like that, that make us pretty much alarming and then I that time, I was also very close to my lip literature friends about that the the other friends from the literature wall so I having you in touch with them and I work together with them in during throughout these, not just the three protests. I also took part in making the regional not regional, it's a local news letters, kind of the alternate day news channel. And, you know, that that's was pretty much all we can do, you know, we just against the what the socialist government had done, and then we just want to spread the news. So it was it was like very normal for for our young students, you know, to do these kinds of protests.
Host 09:55
Right, you were part of the youth movement at the time and You found yourself in the middle of this societal upheaval that was going on that has gone down in the history books and what took place in those years. And you were in the middle of those events and the people and the incidences and the places. And one of the things that happened around you and you were involved in was the founding of the National League for Democracy, the NLD. And Aung San su chi rising for the first time as a voice in her own right, and in the political movement that she was leading. And I think one of the things that's interesting about your book is that you, you were a fly on the wall, you were actually more than that you were also a young participant as these things were being formed. And as some of the these parties and the people were finding their voice were being formed. And so I think it's interesting to hear to go back and listen to your words at the time describing the feeling of being in the middle of these events that are taking places around you. And so I wonder if you can read an excerpt from your book in which you describe the NLD offices being set up for the first time.
Ma Thida 11:20
Our newly established committee office had no furniture, and no money to buy any. So we had to ask for donations from friends and well wishes. We put up the NLD headquarters signboard on September 27, at 56 University Avenue on the day for his registration. Initially, we were only selling membership application forms. But with who intends advice, we issue membership cards with numbered codes. According to the township of the member, I also had to take care of keeping a record of the members. Although I was good at math, and good calculate large sums in my head, I was not very happy with the tasks at hand, since it was not what I wanted to do. We have missed a lot of me's as the people came in droves to buy the forms. And we could not spare any time because no one wanted to wait even a few minutes for us to eat, since they had live under the Burmese socialist program party for too long, 26 years and wanted out. Once the applications came back, we had to issue the cards. We went in arrange for us to assign membership numbers, according to the township, and its population by the number, it can be instantly know which township a member came from accordingly, I came up with the codes for every car.
Host 12:56
Thank you for that. So yeah, that's a wonderful description describing the very beginning and start of what was to become a greater movement. What are your thoughts and feelings as you read those words again, and reminisce on that time?
Ma Thida 13:11
Well, it was really very good experience working together, we entertain, you know, at that time, how much he had been very, very carefully make these codes. You know, he used the the population census book, he had been thinking a lot, he also make pretty detail about expectation, or how much the number of the membership going to be part of NLD something like that, you know, this is very good experience to me, even though I'm not that much interested in these things. But now I've learned having very, very visionary, you know, and also, it is not, like get together making the party easily. It is not like that, you know, it's very well planned. And it was under pretty much pressure. Even though you know, we having trying our best and very systematically, I might say.
Host 14:28
Right, as you hear other people describe the founding of the NLD and those early days, and you were actually involved in that experience. Is there something in being involved and being in the middle of it that you feel that when you read other histories or other people trying to characterize it, you feel that they're missing or they're leaving out based on your lived experience and memory?
Ma Thida 14:54
Yeah, at that time, you know, that's why I wrote down my A tare the campaign diary, I tried a couple of trips together with uncensored chi to some other parts of the country as a campaign trips. And since then I already noticed I haven't gone through one of the significant part of the history together with this team, and it should be recorded, you know, eyewitness account, it's cannot be easily done if I forgot, you know. So that's why I try to write all these things when I was passing through. So I having meeting so many people, and I haven't tried to do that, at the time I fee. I was pretty dutiful in that sense, I can make this eyewitness account during the 9088 89. But beyond that, it was harder to write down.
Host 16:04
And one of the things you do in your book is not just talk about what's happening in your life, and also in the greater movement in Myanmar. But you put into context, what was happening in the world at that time. And, indeed, historians, contemporary historians have looked back on that period of Myanmar. And they've looked at those years of 88 to 90 in the context of some of the greater societal shifts that were taking place in other countries in the world at the time, and the belief that maybe that would also carry over to Myanmar. So can you remind listeners as you were living through that period, what was happening simultaneously in other societies that might have been impacting, or at least motivating the way that you were proceeding within Myanmar at the time as well?
Ma Thida 16:50
Well, at that time, you know, I think the our 898 movement was very early at the time, even though we were so isolated. That's why anything related to this very big movement were not covered very well, by the international media, you know, the Tiananmen Square incidents was a little bit later than us, and then, you know, consecutively, they are some other incidents in the war. It has been pretty much later, you know, the Berlin Wall, broken down, and it's even later, in 9090, something like that not. So our 98 movement was pretty early. And since we were so much isolated, it was pretty much under under cover, you know, but at that time, the whole country were in pretty much very positive moods towards the new society. And unless we found it out the military coup was very quickly came in, and then that military also make us false hope, you know, that 99 The election was totally ruined by its very crucially cunning plans, I might say, you know,
Host 18:26
and right, so we're jumping ahead a couple years. And you, you describe the sense of hope and optimism in those early days and your involvement in that movement going into and we all know how the history turned out that that that was a sense of false hope. And that was taken away and ultimately, your own path led and being involved in greater activism and trying to work towards an LD representation and ultimately lead to prison. So can you share how your trajectory took you to arrest?
Ma Thida 19:06
Indeed, I think the military intelligence have information about a medical doctor is involved. A female medical doctor is involved and a female writer is involved. But they thought it was two persons. They never think it was just one person and that's me. So I was pretty much involved in underground movement after the coop in 1988. September, you know, and after the have arrested on San su chi and a house arrest, I was pretty safe. But I couldn't stop my activity. I try to keep in touch with all the underground movement people, especially the students and the some other ethnic group, men members, leaders from NLD. So we were against the national convention, you know, after 9090 election, even though enter the one majority of the seats and 9090 election, the military government didn't call for the parliaments instead, they just invented the national convention to draw the trough of the Constitution. And in that National Convention, only one seven of the participants for these national conventions are elected members, other six of seven population of the national conventions are all military related people. So we were against it, it is very, pretty much like the DEA tool from the the destination, you know, we were hoping that after the election, the newly elected government can run the country, but it was not. So we were very angry with this kind of D tool, and we're against the national convention is totally undemocratic. And it's very unacceptable. And you see this national convention started in 1993, it's finished only after 14 years. In 2007, it's finished, you know, that's why, after 2007, they tried to make a referendum in 2008, to establish this pretty much anti democratic constitution, then we call the 2008. Constitution. So into 1993. We were against this national convention. That's why we were the target. And I was pretty much involved in lobbying and other activities against the national convention. So I think because of this, but the the other cover story is I read the publication established by National Coalition Government abroad. It's like the Parola government and the elected members of the 9090 election, they left for the foreign countries, they left for border and to make this coalition government and then they distributed this new era genre. And I read it and I pass it on to one of my friends, but it's not as the distribution, but I think they make me putting in jail sentence for 20 years imprisonment for him for this. Instead, I think they are concerned is my role in making the other other members or the ethnic leaders to against the national convention?
Host 23:00
Right, so that's a series of events that ultimately lands you in the notorious insane prison where you became a political prisoner. Can you describe your reaction on getting settled your first moment there your first day and week and getting accustomed to such a new life and culture that was ahead of you?
Ma Thida 23:22
Well, it was really very, very hard, you know it since as soon as I was arrested, and I need to go through the investigation period. But in my case, it was a little bit different, you know, the, on the day, they came to my house at a time my mom and I must myself, we plan to go to the one of the towns in Upper Panama. That Tao is now part of the new capital, Naypyidaw. So we set to travel to that city for having some kind of the religious activities that my mother wanted to do. And she asked the military intelligence to send me back just before we went for the trip, something like that, and I was trying to try to cheat them to refresh with some information I can give them and I said I need to go back home. So they sent me back home before the trip and we went out for their trip, only 24 hours trip, you know, took the train, go there and make the activities and took another train to get back home. But since then, I noticed I might be arrested again. Then after three four days, I was arrested and I need to spend during the at the investigation. Cam and that was also really interesting experience because at that time they even He told me that are you torturing us, because I asked them to keep asking me, something like that. So that was pretty much like competing, our kind of wisdom is shudders. So after that it was not a fun, but it was really a good experience, how to respond to them and how to overcome. And reminding myself, you know, I need to overcome the obstacle, I don't need to overcome the problems at the problems they made to me, I just tried to overcome my own strength, you know, my own response, in my strengths, something like that. So, but the prison environment was really, really amazing, you know, I, it was my very first experience in prison, and most of the criminals, also, oh, I couldn't bear the way that they are language, they are men. And amazingly, or the prison guards, even the woman prisons, the way they behave, the way they speak, the way they think it's all very, very far from my understanding, you know, the language is totally different, even though they speak the same Burmese language, but the communicate thing, language by them is very hard. So for the first first week, first months, it was really hard for me it was like I was in another universe.
Host 26:53
Right, and you go in and describe that in the book. And in addition, you talk about the difference of the types of people that are being housed there, there's the criminals that and you reference, the criminals might be in there for petty theft, for violence for prostitution. And then there's the political prisoners like this set yourself. And these are the part of the prison that you're in the women's part of the prisons, housing these two together. So what can you share about what it was like having these two different groups together and how you got along with the different political prisoners, the friends you made, or the alliances and the difficulties and then what it was like interacting with the more criminal element that was in there as well?
Ma Thida 27:36
Well, you know, I was first kept in kind of the solitary cell, but inside a very big hole, and that hole kept a lot of criminals. And, you know, I feel some empathy. First of all, I was shocked, I really cannot be their language, their behavior, but after some times, I started learning and understanding, you know, why they behave like this, why they did do like this. And some people as soon as they notice I was a political prisoners. They were very, very helpful and very, kind of the dish, they really want to show their empathy and sympathy towards me. So it was really good. Some of the criminals they are not pure criminals, somes were accused wrongly so that kind of people were helping me to make me contact with my parents. And then I was sent to another cells after our sentence, you know, at that time, the the compound, it's kind of the altogether six, confinement cells inside and then some, some political prisoners sometimes are treated like criminals, they were sentenced to death because of the activities during the 98 movement, you know. So, some people, some woman, they are pretty much very strange to me, but I happen to meet God, she's only three years older than me, and she was accused of killing beheading, the one who tried to poisons the children's hospital. She's an educated girl, and she's really very beautiful one. So I was shocked to learn and indeed, it will. It was pretty much complicated, and I think she's already being pretty much regret about her involvement in the incidents. Even though it's thought to be not her own fault or something like that, so I was pretty easy to make friends with her too. Because, you know, in the past a lot of the political prisoners also having a pride saying that oh, we are border prisoners, you are criminals, something like that. But for me, I try to respect anyone because I think even though they might committed a crime, but the the since they are the human being deserves being respected as a human being something like that, and I frankly say until unless you already regret about the your, your activities in the past, you still have hope to recover or overcome it, something like that. So then we make pretty much close friends and that making me very easy to go through throughout my present days, she was very helpful.
Host 31:06
Right, and with that prisoner that you were you became friends with you not only were able to have conversations, but also share materials. And in the early years of your prison, you were able to have access to a rather unpredictable supply of books, which you had to hide and you called tonics. Can you describe what the feeling was of, of when you would have a new book come into your life when you have access to new reading material in that prison environment? What did those books represent to you at that time?
Ma Thida 31:40
Well, you know, I, for for I was arrested. I put, I was a bookworm. And I thought I couldn't survive without any book. And it was happen. And then she was very helpful to smuggle in some books, and, you know, when I see these books, it was totally atonic to me, you know, oh, here. Yeah, that's what I was looking for. Because, you know, the book was my life, you know, I really, you know, that was really nice to have a pug in my own hand even though I need to be very careful of keeping that for that particular night because it was very dangerous and the the a lot of the female guards were calling me as kind of the very problematic prisoners or something like that, you know, so they were asked not to talk to me they were asked not to help to me you know, I became a bad prisoners you know, so I, I couldn't have any chance to convince any morphemic guards to smuggle in these books so I need to totally rely on that call next to me that the neck sells to me so we need some arrangements so when the dog came and she sent me the books through the setting we made before the talk and then I read the book the whole night and then I put it back into the bag back to her just before the tone something like that so the whole night I couldn't even slept on the wooden plate that was given for us to sleep. I need to get into a corner you know, using blanket to cover myself and I try to read Yeah, with this very dim light you know, the electricity inside the prison cell was not very good. I also need to cover myself with the blankets so i i voraciously it was like the very hunger to read it all. So the whole night I just sitting in the squatting position and reading all and it speaks me so much. Strength, you know, my, for me the my hunger is not just for the food to survive, but also for intellectual understanding, you know, without that I don't think I can survive. That's why the books are really tonic to me.
Host 34:41
Right And do you remember which books you read and what impact some of those books had on you and the context in which you were housed and reading them?
Ma Thida 34:51
Well, some books are religious book and Buddhism and the above the meditation and some books are current The first journals we not very having kind of the novels because it's also depending on the cards chosen, you know. So it was mainly the current affairs, Janice, I just want to keep in touch with the outside wall, you know what's going on in, in my country, what's going on in the whole world is really matters to me. So, yeah, I couldn't remember the details of these books, but it's mainly about the magazines. And yeah, the literature magazines and current affair magazines.
Host 35:44
Yeah, I can imagine how hard it must have been to get some of those in. I mean, I remember, my first visit to Myanmar was 2003, and then 2007. And even at that time, in which you're talking decades later than when you were there, and I was walking around the streets of Yangon and freedom, I remember seeing Time and Newsweek magazines of 1015 years ago that were being for sale, because there was, the country was just simply so close, that even getting access to an American periodical was was was very difficult to do just on the street, outside and in bookshops, or whatever. So I can't imagine how difficult it was to get that news in the prison. And yet, as you're getting, you're trying to get news in the prison, there's also an attempt to get news of you, not only outside the prison, but to the wider world. And indeed your case, and, and your imprisonment ended up being known and talked about by people with very high levels. Bill Richardson, Michael stripe, the lead singer of REM, others took on the advocacy of calling for your release. So what in addition to that you also in you won several awards, you were given several honors while you were in prison, and you would learn about those in different stages. And sometime after it was given and sometimes not know, the full story of which award it was and what it meant. But what was it like for you, as you were struggling so much to find news of the outside world to then learn that people on the outside world and not just people but pretty, pretty famous and well regarded people with with some position in their societies, were concerned about you and we're, we're speaking out on your behalf, even though they had never met you. And some of them had probably never even been to the country.
Ma Thida 37:34
Yes, it was really also very tonic. I feel very encouraged by this kind of thing. When I learned throughout these days, what I was thinking is okay, my presence in prisons cannot be just nothing, you know, it means something, and then this kind of the responses and this kind of concerns from these very famous people and institutions. It's already showed that you know, our days in prisons means not nothing is something you know, so, this is the very strong proof as the justice done by the military. So I, as soon as I noticed some of the the happening, you know, the my birthday celebration at the full wall, war, woman's convention, etc. It was very astonishing. And I was feeling pretty much encouraged by this and expected kind of the contribution from these groups and the people. It's really very tonic to me to be frank. Yeah, I was so shocked. You know, whatever. I learned about these kind of things done by the either MSc International or pet International. It is really amazingly encouraging.
Host 39:04
That's great. Going back to the books that you read the tonics that you had, you describe some of them were of the nature of current events and affairs and periodicals. Others were religious texts that were talking about Buddhism and perhaps Avi dama, meditation discourses by some of the great say it does. And indeed, a large part of your book is talking about your practice of meditation in the prison and your transformation. Not just as a prisoner and an activist but as a an individual that started to make a greater spiritual commitment to your path and your practice in your life. And that created quite a transformative effect on you in a place that was pretty difficult and was was not an easy place to survive and to keep mental health. So let's get into a bit about your Meditation practice and the role that played before looking at what meditation you did in prison and the effects it had on you. Can you describe? What was your before coming into prison? What was your background with Buddhism? How are you brought up? What was your experience with meditation and learning about the teachings before getting into the prison?
Ma Thida 40:22
Well, yes, my, especially my mother, she's very devoted Buddhists. And we were pretty much trained by the Buddhist tradition. And in in our childhood days, you know, at the some other public parties, location, we can be taught the some of the soul drive, like Mingalar, Zota, letters or something like that. And then the first of all, I started reading a lot about the partisans. And that was my very first exposure to any literature, you know, the very first texts is all about Buddhism, you know, so I really, like reading all these Buddha's teaching in my early teenage years. And then I went to a meditation retreat, then I learned how to do the meditation, but I couldn't get enough time and chance to practice it. Even though I Happy reading all these things. So in prison, when I have no chance to read any books, officially, I got only three books, officially after meeting with Bill Richardson and I got the chance to read three religious books, what I wanted, and the all three books, including the practice how to practice the meditation, according to them, Hatha tea, Putana doTERRA. So it's very helpful for me to practice by myself, I will was not in the meditation center nor the retreat, but after reading these and having all my own experiences at the retreat, and childhood teaching, and I can handle that very well into changing my presences into meditation retreat.
Host 42:37
Right, and on that topic of changing your meditation cell into a retreat, you describe the beginning of this transformation that takes place in your lifestyle as a prisoner in the book.
Ma Thida 42:57
First, I notified everyone, and explain that I had no idea how long it was going last. Nonetheless, I promise everyone, that I will be involved whenever we face problems, and that by meditating, I did not intend to cause trouble for anyone. I could not be choosy about where and how I meditated. I had to turn myself into a retreat. Perhaps, they are places and food for humans to dwell. But there is no place and food for practicing tomorrow and meditation. Besides, there is a sea where there have been good deeds done throughout past lives, that place can always be suited to overcoming all obstacles in the path of freedom from samsara. One communist prisoners neared. Well, so insane prison is to be turned into a retreat. Some want me to be careful, as they had heard that some people went crazy after meditating, actually, the ones who want me about this belief that no political activist should be religious, because it could weaken activists to the point that they could give up the fight.
Host 44:20
Right, and that's a very full passage because it gets at a number of things altogether. It talks firstly, about your actual practical process of setting up your cell and then goes into your mind state and realizing that there's no place there's no conditions or one cannot practice Dhamma and try to come out of samsara. No matter what condition one finds oneself in and then you get a bit into the prisoners reaction of thinking that you're up to something or you're not being serious or perhaps thinking you are serious and being concerned that it's going to dilute your activism and that you can choose only one path or the either. And so I think this is interesting to look into what led you to this day to decide to make this transformation up to this point, you were you were you were reading books wherever you could. And once you start meditating, the the reading starts to slip off a bit because you become so engrossed in your meditation, you're more involved in the politics of whatever you can learn outside as well as the prison system. And then when you take a meditation, it's a very inward turning event in your life to really radically orient the direction of your efforts and your attention. So, what led to those decisions of deciding to want to take that real radical step towards transformation?
Ma Thida 45:46
Well, what I believe is freedom is by choice not by chance, you know, so, I always you know, the almost all the time I was thinking okay, as a prisoner, what can I do? I cannot myself releasing from prison, I cannot make any other good kind of the activities or the movement, you know, to save the others to you know, so a lot of people are just saying that religious things is more like the very individual freedoms, you focus on individual freedom, and you just don't care about the others, but for me, I think if we are not free, how can we make others free? So, the freedom for me is pretty much very meaningful than the physical freedom something like that. So, I was just thinking okay in the prison, what can I do? I cannot I normally you know, speak of on behalf of the others and I was bought by the prison guards you know, you cannot speak out for the others you can just talk for yourself something like that, but I keep doing that's why I became a bad prisoner. So, I cannot stop this kind of thing of course, but at the same time, I feel I need to free myself to You know, I try to think okay, in the prison, what can I do? What can I do keep asking myself and I think okay, freedom is current it according to the Buddha's teaching a cretin is current it only when you make an effort, something like that, you know, this is the meditation, you know, freedom from samsara, is, is far more harder than freedom from prison, because I can be released after 20 years imprisonment, but I cannot be released from samsara. If I do nothing, you know. And in order to be free from samsara, what should I need is just meditation, just looking at myself, body and my, in prison, I don't need any more, I already have my body and my butt for releasing from prison, physically, it might need, you know, cooperation with the gods Well, or making an apology to the military or something like that. So that should be very pleasant way to make myself free by something like that. So I couldn't do that, you know, because I, I took part in the activities, even though I know I very well notice, I might be in prison one day, but I did it, you know. So for me, I cannot apologize, I cannot keep resisting the military. That's one thing. But on the other hand, you know, making myself free from samsara is very practical to me, because I have my body, I have my mind and I can do the meditation almost all day because I have no other commitment to do in the prison. So take advantage. That's That's my point. And I also really having a big fear of the sensor or the soccer or lives, you know, as far as I understand, the soccer of lights cannot be terminated by any meaningful meditation. So I think here is my chance take it. That's why I did it. And then that transformed me
Host 50:00
Right, so you're hitting the difference between the conditional and the unconditional and where freedom lies between that the unconditional release or liberation from cause and effect through meditation and the conditional dependent origination through the, in the worldly sense having to rely on relations and connections that are beyond your control. And, and this is compounded by the fact that you're living in a corrupt system. And so it's very difficult to navigate a corrupt system in any kind of ethical ways as, as one does. And we should also for listeners who aren't don't have a background and meditation, we should inform that the word you're using samsara, you're talking about freedom from samsara, that samsara indicates the endless round of rebirths, that that one is caught in, and so escape from samsara, and liberation from that is, of course, the nibbana, the ultimate liberation. And so when you're talking about being trapped in samsara, wanting to escape from it, you're you're speaking about the endless cycles of rebirth. I want to take a moment to look at the type of meditation that you were doing. I from reading your book, I understand a couple of influence, a couple of influences that I've gleaned of monks and traditions, you reference Chemita Sayadaw, who is in the Mahasi lineage, and, and relying someone on his guidance, I know that he I've met him before and been to his monastery and actually was in Macau and with the Burmese community when he happened to give a Dhamma talk there. So I was fortunate enough to meet him there as well. And I know that he teaches the Mahasi form of the passion as well as his own metta practice as well. In addition, you also reference mogul excited, who is of course has the potty sama pada. And is combines that the Mogul tradition combines quite a bit of critical thought and critical understanding, with the practice with the understanding that the meditator shouldn't just delve directly into the practice of investigating the mind but should also have a solid understanding of a theory and cause and effect especially before going into the practice. So these different traditions, maybe there are more as well, and I'm not aware of but these these two are three different traditions depending on how you count Mahasi Chemita and Mogok? Can you describe a little of where your influences were coming from what you were practicing maybe at different times if you're if your practice started to change, and what type of method or instructions you were following during this time?
Ma Thida 52:47
Well, as you said, I appreciate both the Mahasi and the Mogol. But I think you might notice also notice about the book I read is by this Deepika Ucci it's all about the translation of the Mahatma Deepa tonnato, Yamaha three Putana sutra, it's very detailed about the method of the meditation, it's more, I might say I focus mainly on the Seta, neuropathy, you know, it's all about the focusing more on the what's happening in my mind, rather than the other, you know. So, I think the the both the good things about the Mogul is as you said, the solid knowledge is very, very helpful, not to making wrong way, but that knowledge cannot make any wisdom until unless we practice it, you know, so that's, that's the basic thing I think meditation practice of the meditation is it can transform our knowledge into wisdom. So that's, that's why I think the practice of the way the MaHA see a doing is more on the, the part of the how to how to put your mindfulness on both the body and the mind, you know. So it's not two ways for me here, you know, it's only one way is the Buddha's way. And according to the MaHA three Patronato sutra, it's all about you know, the basic starting point is all about understanding of what is 40 what is my and how it relates, because our ultimate aim is to understand the Neysa impermanence don't cause suffering and the NATA know so on Ancef you No. So there will be more than two three ways to reach them. But, you know, as long as you understand the, the, the point we are the critical point we haven't gone through to reach out to the ultimate wisdom is this very basic three things. And these are all methods are cooperating, you know, I think that's why I might say, practicing meditation in prison by myself with the help of these knowledge is really perfect for me. Because if I were outside, I might go to one Meditation Center, I need to practice according to the top train, it might not work for me, you know. So I think it's another, I think the knowledge make me more freedom to practice, the real essence. So yeah, I use not just one knowledge from one doctrine, but also from the different doctrines that make me more freely to make myself accommodating with the real essence.
Host 56:24
Yeah, that's great. And I think that that also hits upon something of the difference between the way that we see the traditions alive in Myanmar and the way they then become exported to the west, where, even if you were not in prison, even if you were outside in society, I think that it's not uncommon for many people, many Burmese meditators to take what they like from one tradition than another one and incorporate that into their practice. And I think when those traditions start to be exported, the kind of fuzzy divided line that separates them and the way that they're all coexisting ends up taking on a more structured and formal lineage, when it's described outside the country, then when it's integrated in actually in, in the context in daily life. And so I think that the for for those meditators and practitioners listening from other countries who haven't been to Myanmar, I think that it could feel somewhat jarring to think of combining different kinds of techniques or teachings or traditions, and that are coming from different lineages in one practice. But I think what you hit upon is is not untrue. And uncharacteristic of overall Myanmar Society of being able to integrate them in a wise and skillful way, understanding that they're all coming from the same source. And yet, as you're doing that, you know, you you're on your own for a large part, people around you don't necessarily understand what you're doing, you have very limited access to the kinds of books and resources that that that you're able to access and able to refer to. There's no meditation teacher or guide that is easily accessible. For being able to get answers and ask questions I did read in your book that you were I think, secretly getting questions to Chemita say it in written form. And so there was some kind of delayed guidance that happened, but what was it like for you, trying to create and model your own meditation experience being both teacher and student and not having access not having easy access to a guide? You can go to to get instruction or ask, Am I doing this right? Or I'm having this problem? How do I work with this? What? How did you manage that sense of isolation?
Ma Thida 58:53
Well, I think the the very first thing for me why I did meditation is not just taking advantage of being in prison, but also having a big fear about the Sansara the endless cycle of the report, you know, because I see the, the, this kind of sensor is far more fearful than the, the imprisonment. You know, for me, though, after having this kind of the very entrenched fear about the cycle of lives. I think this makes me very powerful, mindful Ness, you know, that that is very at that time when I practice I practice up to 20 hours per day and I I just pick up anything, you know, at the time, I didn't read and I didn't, you know, communicate properly. Leave with anyone, you know, almost all the day I just meditated. You know? So I think at that time, you know, I have no chance to consult with any, any teachers not chummy CRO know anyone you know. So I think the that's why I really believe in the practice of the Buddha's teaching, you know, so the prior knowledge about pros and cons, I have been reading a lot about these things, you know, and I already have an experience, part, when I practice, I forget about my own experience, you know, I just focus on mindfulness all the time, you know, the key of the weavers and our meditation is just be mindful, whatever you do, so that's why I don't rely on the duration of one positions to do the meditation. You know, I can change my position, as long as I'm very mindful about my physical and mental changes. And revival IV and meditation. So my key searching is, as I said, the very basic one, you know, three things. And Nisa Toka annata. That's all. So reaching that I think I, at that time, I don't care about the other teaching, I just managing myself. And I think the in that sense, I might say the Martin kappa is a right. Right analysis, you know, in my, my, I tried to analyze, you know, what this is? What is my experience, but it is what is. So it is very hard to explain, but I tried to explain in my book very detailed, but I think at the time, you know, reviewing myself, I think this is all about the real essence of the meditation is reviewing everything, indeed, it's hard to say myself, because there is no so no self, you know, so I try to look out for the nature, the nature of the mind, the nature of the body, something like that. So it's, as soon as I get on the road of understanding the nature of the mind, and the body, the next step is automatically go into how it's interconnected, you know, that the cause and effect, you know, what's the the the harmonious relationship between the need the body and the mind, something like that. So it's all if we are on the right track, when we started understanding the actual nature of the body and my, it's, it's brings, you know, the meditation brings the right path, that that's what I experienced.
Host 1:03:36
Right, that's a great characteristic and understanding of some of the insights that your meditation practice began to illuminate for you. I think in looking at undertaking meditation, a large part of the Buddhist teachings is the understanding of dukkha, which has been translated as suffering or unsatisfactoriness of life. And I think for many of us that are caught up in the actual living of life, sometimes we lose sight of some of the deeper inherent Ducas as we're trying to constantly get ahead and focus on the things we want and ignore the things that we don't want that are coming to us and we lose the pattern or the insights of this ever present. Dukkha that is a a feature of life of inherent in human life according to the Buddha's teachings. This is one of the reasons why intensive silent meditation retreats given around the world, which is a relatively new phenomenon, but it's an innovative way to be able to take the practitioner in an isolated space and cut off everything else around him or her to be able to focus on on on some of those things deeper inside that often we don't. And so my question to you is, you're in prison, which I'm sure is a place in which practitioners and non practitioners, Buddhists to non Buddhists are inherently aware of the truth of suffering, and I think that there's probably fewer, there's a few places in the world where the truth of suffering is not as apparent as it is as prison. And so I'm wondering if looking at that particular part of the Buddhist teachings, the understanding of the of, of suffering, the role of suffering, the existence of dukkha, the Four Noble Truths, being in the prison and trying to understand and contemplate this, did you feel that it it particularly led to certain kinds of insights or understandings that were different from how one How might one look at it outside of a prison environment?
Ma Thida 1:05:42
Well, indeed, the real meaning of Tokar the suffering, according to the Buddha's teaching is not the physical suffering, no. Having nothing what we want to hear no, something like that. So that's why I entered unless we don't understand the Neysa. The impermanence, the understanding of dukkha, from the lemon perspective is not very complete, to be frank. But according to my experience, you know, that's why when I talk, the basic basic understanding should be an ASA Toka nada, you know, that's why, why we say suffering is, you know, since it is impermanence, you know, we might face very good experience, it's also suffering, because it won't last long. You know, when we face bad experience, is also suffering, it's, it's suffer, it's F, but of course, it is not permanent, but still, that another different experience might not last long. So until and unless we cannot get out of impermanence, everything is suffering. That's why I said after the meditation, it's a bit easier for me to make indifference between the good and bad things, I need to say, of course, I still recognize good and I still recognize bad things. But this very experienced making me a bit easier to be indifferent between the good and bad things, because I know all is impermanence. And because of this impermanence, nature, whatever we face is suffering.
Host 1:07:57
Right? Those are some really wise words to contemplate and live by, although it was a hard struggle on your part to to gain that wisdom. In looking at your role in prison, your your experiences there moving a bit outside of meditation and looking at some of the values that meditation encourages or guides us. I want to call attention to some of the integrity I guess we can say that you show as a prisoner, there's many examples of you taking strong ethical stance on certain issues. Many times at the expense to your own being just some of the things that come to mind are not taking advantages. Or if there's a person with connections or some way to get things done often. purposely not wanting to rely on that route. Because it's it's not. It's there's some corruption there, as well as not giving bribes, which of course, is corruption. There's many cases in your book of being interrogated and the leading questions of what they want you to say and not responding in the way that they expect or they want and sometimes that detriment to yourself and your time in prison. You also have a real sense of fairness, there's moments where your family has sent you some medicine or food of some kind, and you learn that some portion of what was being given to you was what they wanted to give was not included in the shipment. And so you you refuse the entire thing. And as you joke in the interview, you're a bad prisoner in that sense, because you made difficulties for everyone by not having the system just function and work you you stopped the gears of everything shifting forward because you say hey, this is wrong. I'm not. I'm not going to accept these mangoes. I'm not going to accept this medicine because there's something taken out and that's by principle that will work as well as in some cases not even accepting medical treatment. that you very much need because others that also need medical treatment are getting it. And so you are not going to accept that medical treatment yourself unless it's given also to those who need it, but whose case is not being acknowledged internationally as yours is. So all of these examples of integrity and choosing this strong, ethical standard, they come in and expense of your, of your time in prison and your your comfort level and needs. What in your mind? What led you to wanting to make the sacrifices and take these ethical stands? How was it regarded by those around you? What impact what impact did it have overall on your prison experience?
Ma Thida 1:10:46
Well, I again, I think, yeah, I ever been very determined to be part of the society even though you know, I learned there is no, so nonself, that's the understanding about Ananda is also very much helping me a lot. Not making myself as a priority or privilege, you know, that's really, really helpful, you know, after understanding the anodized there, I try not to make myself as a privileged one very easily. And also on the same at the same time, you know, I, for me, the principles is ever met us, you know, I just live by principle, you know, I couldn't make myself kind of the persons who, based on the other kind of favoritism or something like that, it's very hard, you know, because I just want to be very principle, I want to think the whole universe as same, you know, because for me, yeah, since there is no sort of nonsense, the other beings are exactly. The quali. respectful and valued, you know, so that's also helping me to keep my principle almost always, you know, even though I might sacrifice something, because I fee if we are not following our own principle, that's also related to our destiny, the destiny in terms of the, the politics, you know, so the democratic society, that all human beings, and they are human rights should be respected. So I just try to follow my principal. And that's make me more, I might say, more confidence. So. So it's, I don't know how to explain, I just want to keep my principal and keep my authority, I used to say, I ever use my own authority to face the authority, that G authority, you know, because I feel we are the one who can make the the decision who use the authority, even though I don't accept the, the, the saw and stuff, because, you know, it's really hard to explain, but yeah, that's what I want to meet, you know?
Host 1:13:49
Yeah. No, I think that's a great answer. And I think that that, even the way that the when the authorities interrogate you, I think that that is really illuminating in terms of how you're responding to their answers with respect, you're responding with truthfulness, you're, and yet you're you're also not giving them what they want, which then becomes so frustrating for them, while also standing up for the principles of democracy, human rights, as well as showing the insights of your newborn meditation practice, which also starts to creep in to some of those interrogation settings. And there's one scene that you capture in the book, I wonder if you can share an excerpt of that moment when you're being interrogated.
Ma Thida 1:14:40
Worldly affairs, politics, human rights, and other issues. And then I will accept injustice silently could only thank me. I had never intended to forsake helping others, and to remain silent on injustice. Even while meditating Nearly 20 hours a day. In fact, it was my love for truth and justice that caused me to meditate in order to find them within myself. I was already determined to seek and defend through and justice, because I believe there was no difference whether we were looking from religious or secular perspectives. Therefore, practicing the personnel did not mean abandoning politics, human rights or the rights of prisoners. In the same way, defending and protecting these rights did not necessarily mean any lessening of sila Samadhi, and Pina morose, integrity and wisdom. Most problems I saw in prisons were the result of the gods lack of goodwill, lack of education, mismanagement, fear of repercussion, and lack of control over their own fate. Instead of solving even minor problems easily without any loss for God or prisoner, they had the idea that they should bully prisoners, the prisoners tended to think all gods were unjust. And they focus more on what they felt rather than on solving the issue at hand. Therefore, there were only winners or losers for each incidence, causing grudges and resentment. Besides, there were some prisoners who wanted to maintain their privileges, and were not reluctant to distort the truth. And so more problems were created. Therefore, I continue to meditate to be liberated.
Host 1:16:54
Yeah, and I think what's so powerful about that particular excerpt is the intersection that it traces between social justice and engagement in the world, with the more introspective, individual spiritual practice, and even in the West, or maybe I should say, especially in the West, many practitioners haven't quite figured out how to integrate their more formal spiritual on the cushion practice with the problems that are occurring in the wider world. And so I think it's really interesting to hear in this passage, the concern that others were expressing that your sense of activism and social justice and right and wrong in the world and your engagement for the betterment of all people, that this was going to be impacted by your meditation practice. And this is a very firm response to that and declaring that your your metaphor, your meditation practice does not make you less concerned and less engaged with what's going on in the world. But it actually informs and creates wiser and more mature decisions around it. So I, that's one thought I had with the excerpt you read. The second thing that comes to mind reading, hearing this one, as well as just the overall book is you seem to have a you seem to put out a kind of opinion that it's or at least through your characterizations of people and incidences in the book, that it's not so much about bad people or individuals that you're encountering, it's portrayed more as just a very corrupt and awful system, that no one in that system really has many good choices, whether they're on this side, or that side, or this level, or that level, or this background or that background, that the system itself is so corrupt and problematic, that it is very difficult for anyone any position of it to do very much and most people don't have very good choices and you didn't have very good choices because your choices led you to prison and the people that are monitoring and garden you in prison also don't have very good choices. And yet they're they're protecting that corrupt system. So these are kind of two opposite sides of a coin one being the nature of the corrupt system in which you're describing an operating in and having sympathy for those of all stripes that are forced to live as well. And then engagement within that system to try to change it and make it better and create more positive outcomes. So what are your thoughts on this intersection of of meditation and spiritual practice with engagement with the world and also this characterization of the the wider system in Myanmar and the difficulties that it creates in wherever one operates within that system?
Ma Thida 1:19:54
Well, in de when we talk about the meditation, I've when I said the A Nissa Toka. And that ta this kind of very three basic knowledge. And we used to say this is weights, ah, you know, this is not a waste weights, it's I don't know how to translate, you know, this is the true cons, cognitive understanding, you know, so understanding the very real things that read through, that can solve the problem. That's why I said most of the the society itself, as you said, is pretty much the system is also corrupted, if you don't have the right understanding, again, I might say, the making Hsipaw, or the eight parts of the truth, you know, if you don't have the right understanding about what is the root cause of what is happening, you know, the way we it will be so many different ways people accommodate or response, something like that, you know, so it's depending on how much knowledge how much understanding we we do have, you know, if we don't have a true understanding, we if we don't have a real understanding real knowledge, real wisdom, the way we react, the way we response, the way we contribute to this corrupt systems will, making us pretty much an injustice, or pretty much around by path. You know, that's why I think the the, I think the meditation practice, really, really make me easier to understand the root cause, not the not the result, you know, not the effect. So that's why I think I focus more on the principle I focus more on the root cause not on the beaver, you know, people is, for me, according to my experience in meditation practice, you know, that there is no so no surf, so beavers doesn't matter. You know, the matter is the this understanding that the knowing of the the root cause, that I think, for me, that's why it's very easy to understand. After I understand the UN, ESA DACA, and that, from my main agent practice, I can apply in politics, you know, so most of my approach, whenever I defend human rights, or talking about justice, it's more like not on the individual level, not on the personal level. But on the system level. It's a structural level, you know, so that that's the interconnection between the meditation practice and politics, I think,
Host 1:23:16
yeah. And so then this, your meditation practice really changed your sense of being an activist and a political actor, after going through this transformative process that it sounds like it affected your outlook on how you want to take on that these roles and how you, you carry these roles. Would that be fair to say?
Ma Thida 1:23:36
Yes, yes, I do. That's why, you know, I, as I said, I have not much personal dream in politics. That's why I'm happy with Yeah, how I just want to contribute, I just want to reflect it I don't want to take any position, or I don't want to be in recognize something like that. It doesn't matter to me, you know, the matter is the principle the matter is the understanding, you know.
Host 1:24:07
Right, right. And I think it's also very interesting to hear how your responses go when you're being interrogated. And when, of course, the answers you give are going to affect when and if you're going to be released. So these are very high stakes, and you're answering them very honestly, but you're this interchange that you're undergoing at the time in prison is starting to to shape your answers. And let's hear an excerpt of that happening in one exchange that you quote in the book.
Ma Thida 1:24:46
Finally, he asks, What is your opinion on the government? He gave me a weak smile when I answer according to Tamar, everything is impermanent and Neysa and I only see He thinks as such, he then asks what I thought of my su authencity. She's doing what she has to do, and facing hardship dhokha knowingly was my answer. As usual, I was asked, What is your political goal? You look at me perplexed Lee, when I said, I like to do what a good citizen should do for her country. And I wished you have the right to do so. I have no other goal apart from that. This time, I did not answer as before about what I wanted to be. But what I wanted to to my answer has changed. After a why he left after saying is no use discussing anything with you. And I'd said to myself, that my time in prison was not going to end anytime soon. It was not even our day to fast. But I had no regrets. Because I had not said anything with an eye towards shortening my sentence. The others in the block laugh, when I told them of the interrogation, they said, so you failed the test again. Yet, I passed the test I had set for myself
Host 1:26:32
that's great, that's great. And that, that really gives the nature of these kinds of call and response interrogations you were having, and eventually you did get free. And you after all the years that you spent in prison, you you were released, and you went back out into the world. So, can you describe what that was like leaving after all those years in prison and finding yourself a free person again?
Ma Thida 1:27:00
Well, after understanding a Nissa dukkha and that dad again, you know, freedom, as I said, Freedom is by choice is not by chance. So freely traveling all over the war is my choice is not by chance. So, for me, freedom is always in my hand. So I think the experiencing new environment, new systems, new society, new people, something like that, is also very, very good to me. Very, very good experience for me, but I keep reminding myself, you know, be careful, it is impermanence. It is suffering still. And it is the Natta you know, do be praying, you know, this is the mindfulness came off and on to me to be frank, you know, I do meditation, not that much when I was in prison. But, you know, whenever I face and I keep reminding me this mindfulness came to me and keep saying, Okay, you facing good things right now. But be careful. This is impermanence. And when the bad experience came to me, and you know that that's, that's why I think this is how I I chose my freedom.
Host 1:28:44
Right, right. And so much of this conversation is focusing on this intersection between the spiritual practice in this case Buddhist meditation and the wider world, and especially in Myanmar, especially the current context and the recent history in the country. And I want to ask you, what I want to pre warn is a a difficult question, a complicated question. I want to reference that this is actually the fourth time I've asked this question of a guest in the duration of this podcast. Those guests that I think really would have something to say about a question this complicated and difficult to untangle the previous guests that I've had on that I've asked this to have been a shin Saina, who is a Czech monk, who's been in Myanmar about 10 years and has spoken out very forcefully on the part of the democracy movement sway when who was also a political prisoner and meditator as well and is the editor in chief in Myanmar now and Alan comments who was one of the earliest people to interview have an in depth interview with Aung San su chi in the mid 90s. These three people as you have what you have in common min is, is social engagement and activism with a very serious and dedicated meditation practice. The question is as follows. And I should mention these these are exact words, I've gone back to the transcript from the first time and I just want to want to capture the essence of the question, right? Because I think it's such a challenging thing to try to understand and comment on. The question is, Burma is a complicated country. It's a difficult recent history, combined with a rich meditative tradition that has inspired mindfulness movements all around the world, from some of the greatest teachers and traditions that have gone into cultures around the world since a question that I personally often get from meditators is why is there not more peace in a country where so many people are at the forefront of pursuing inner peace? So there's this kind of contradiction? I'm wondering what your answer to this is, why do you think there is such instability in a country where for so long, so many people have tried to attain the greatest mental instability?
Ma Thida 1:31:09
Well, I think the real problem is with the education, you know, the education system itself is pretty much ineffective and including the demand education, I think, the problem of the Sangha, as an organization in my country, in my society, is the, the system's how they learn about the teaching of boat is mean the mud, you know, so the, how they learn, the teaching of Buddha is more on to memorizing less on to understanding the real essence. And there are, as you said, there are a couple of the meditation retreats are really very good, but most of the people who went to the meditation center is like, to be frank, it's like going to the gym, you know. So it's, it's the aim and objectives of practicing meditation is not reaching to the point we call petite, we die, it's an of the day the reaching out the, the real essence I, you know, so that's why the most of the learning about the teaching of the Buddha is or more or less, is like, sharing the knowledge to the layman that the most of the objectives that the most Sangha has their objectives is more likely sharing this knowledge of the demand to the layman. And for those who practice, you know, the Buddha's teaching is also not for aiming for the Atmos destiny, Neva Na, you know, it's more like having a good life in the current life or the consecutive life, something like that, the good things happen to them will be the ultimate aim for them. That's why they never reach out to the real essence of the Buddha's teaching, that is an ASA dukkha and nada, and these are Dukkha Ananda it's, it's very common words, but they never make that in to understanding, you know, so that's why I said the the problem of my society, my country is, we have knowledge, of course, but we cannot transform knowledge into wisdom, that's the real crisis for us. So, the education system itself is never ever encouraging people even to reach out to the knowledge you know, for most of the layman's, for example, i Another thing is, I think the problem is the language you know, a lot of the Buddha's teaching is ritually available in Pali language, but not in Burma premise or the other ethnic languages. And then another thing is there is not much translation. So people just reciting the sutra like Mytho. So tra, s in Pali, but they never ever noticed the real meaning of the Pali words that should be practice, you know, so sending meta is not just chanting, the meta sutra sending meta is you need to be prepared. You need to we need to make ourselves some ones who can retain the loving kindness and sharing that loving kindness to the other. So in order to do so, we need to obey, you know, the from the very beginning, inside the metta sutra, the words Azusa to Husa, is you need to be honest, very perfectly honest, something from the very beginning is you need to prepare someone's, without having any honesty, you cannot be someone who can share your loving kindness, something like that. So, on the basic level, you know, the understanding of the real essence of Buddha's teaching has never been reached out to the real to the majority of people. So that's why what I see is the weakness in the domain education, the weakness in the translation, translation make loss. And, and a lot of people just appreciate the rear boat essence of the Buddha's teaching for the current moment, even not for the current life, you know, for the current moment. So that's the program, you know, the rear objectives of the Buddha's teaching is for the for facing the 10 cents around the lives of the robots, the cycle of the life, but people just apply as they wish, you know, with the limited knowledge, they just apply the Buddha's teaching into their layman's life just for the particular moment. So that sense, how can this society be pretty much get out of the tradition of Buddhism?
Host 1:36:42
Those are some great thoughts. Thanks for sharing that. And I've definitely heard others speak to a similar sentiment about the education system, both public as well as monastic, needing to be reformed in any number of ways. And, of course, it would be an entire other podcast episode to explore the history of that Burmese educational system, monastic and otherwise, both tracks are quite compelling and interesting to understand and can shine a light on the current moment of what the country and the people are facing. And with that, let's bring our analysis up from where we've, we've been looking at your time in prison in the 90s, mainly, and look at what's happening now in 2021 2022, I have to say, had this weird sense when I was reading your book, I read it a couple months ago. So of course in the throes in the midst of what's happening with the latest Burmese military takeover. And as I was reading your book, I was also engaged, obviously, with reading the news and hearing from friends and preparing other podcast episodes and everything else that went into my day. And I would do all these other activities, and then I would go and read your book. And I would have this like this time warp or like I'd read a few pages. And I'd suddenly forget that I was reading about something in 1988 I because some of the things that you were describing some of the terror, the inhumanity, the unfairness, the the the just the death and destruction for no reason the senseless loss of life. And the anecdotes that you're describing, mostly before you go to prison. But during those episodes that I'm I'm reading your book, I find I'm thinking I have to jar myself remember, Oh, this this is not this didn't happen yesterday, this isn't the the events I'm hearing about from other sources. This is something being described and 88. So it was this terrible sense of like this stuff just never ends there. It's just this the same stories, the same marks the same dynamics, it's just appearing over and over again. And it was this this real pain of feeling this this doom sense of repeated history that had happened in previous revolutions. However, the the past is not inevitable to repeat itself. And many commentators are saying that the things that they're seeing now this year, and what's been over a year of the democracy protest is going about differently than we've seen in other resistance movements to the military in Myanmar. And so for someone who had a ground seat at in 1988, with the rise of Aung San su chi, the formation of NLD, being a political prisoner, yourself and an activist, a writer, a doctor, everything else that goes along with that, as you're watching and following along with this current moment, what do you see what stands out what's similar what's different? What hopes or fears do you have?
Ma Thida 1:39:52
Well, I think the the current situation when I see from the people side, it has transformed A bit, you know, compared to the 90 ata, with total isolation, we have not much knowledge about human rights, we just want to be free from the oppression of the socialist government, we just want to get out of the poverty, etc, you know, so our dream was not very, very big. But after carrying out of isolation, being exposed to the war, through the digital platform, through the lack of the censorship, something like that, you know, the current generations have more ambitious dream and determination, and more, they weaponize themselves with more knowledge about the other other practical things like technology. And I think they have less wound compared to us, you know, because they they didn't, the most of the teen ages. Right now, they never ever experienced these kind of atrocities, they just hot off, you know, they even might say, Oh, we were neutral, because we never knew this military was this much atrocity or something like that. So the way they see the present, and the future is more neutral, more positive and more dedicated to equality, no, hate, a trip, kind of the sort of the tragic, the tragedy, nor the sorrows, something like that more neutral way, but relatively comparing to the army, you know, the way they make this atrocities is the same as in it at the parent was the same, the way they killed the same the way they treated people the same the way they think, what, how the people responded to them, they were the same. So it's, I might say, the, the RB is has never developed nor grown enough, since 1988, before 1988, you know, so, the conservative leadership of the Termidor the military, a show their failure of making their own institution developed into a world accommodated institution with the needs of the tie, you know, so I think this is also making us more, more trajection. For them, I still cannot believe that if someone's leading one institution, that it this leaders, dedication, to what its own institution should be big enough, should be pretty much positive enough, but what I have seen is the institution is totally destroy, even though the people, you know, the people oppressed so much throughout these history, but, you know, the people that society is, is pretty much civilians are pretty much accommodated to the needs of the time, you know, it's it has been developed so much, it has been transformed so much, you know, even though you know, we have in no chance, you know, it's pretty much with the very limited resources nor the chance, but the society already show we are able to understand the what is justice, what is human rights, what is the democracy, what is federalism etc You know, we we weapon ourselves with the necessary knowledge necessary attitude necessary behavior, but the Termidor the military didn't do anything else they just wasting the state's budget states human resources, and you know, everything and they still try to use the religion as religion and race as the weapon you know, how much they are wasting just by themselves, their lives they are institution is almost lost in this fight, even though a lot of people might be killed and a lot of people might lost They are properties they are, they are everything. But I think the loss of the terminal as an institution is the great is that the biggest ever, you know, to they should be, they should make sense back, you know how to behave. And then we can solve the problem. Otherwise, under that unless they don't make sense. The problem will be keep going on.
Host 1:45:30
And as we look at how institutions and people have evolved since 1988, and comparing the present moment to back to 88, I want to ask your feelings about Aung San su chi, you had a front row seat with watching Aung San su chi, find her political voice, become a leader of the people a founder of the party, and go through all the turmoil she went through of attempted assassination attempts and home arrest and, and all those other injustices and then ultimately take power in the 2000 10s, of course of as many people have remarked, it's there's a distinction between being on the side being powerless and something of an icon for a set of values against the very evil tormentor and then actually being someone in a role who is having to make decisions and wield some kind of power. Obviously, the there was never really full democracy or full control in governance, but but there was certainly some decision making that there wasn't before. And in watching her go through that transformation and watching, observing her in the 2000 10s start to become a leader who was not just an opposition or resistance force, but someone who was actually having to make hard calculated political decisions, what what is your view on where on what choices she made, and how she, she has moved from being that democracy icon into someone who has has been at the forefront of government?
Ma Thida 1:47:08
Well, I think in this case, I might see the heart responses is pretty much related to the responses from others towards Ha, you know, I think the whole war has determined to support ha as an icon on behalf of the whole society, whole country, you know, that make her much more confidence about her leadership. And she think whatever she decides, whatever she initiates, or whatever she demands, the will be the equal very, pretty much similar supportive responses from the society within you know, so, indeed, in reality, it was not, you know, the, as I said, that society has been evolved already, the different people different group has been gone through so many things, even though they was supporting her for so long. But, you know, the way they see her as an opposition and the way they see her as a leader, it's not the same. But, you know, she, for her, that might be the same, you know, the society might be the same, even though she she has transformed or she, her position has been changed something like that. So I think the, the response of her and the response to was her has never been pretty much match along and came along that that's the Another challenge we have been going through in D if we, from the very beginning, if we focus more on the decentralized, collective leadership throughout the history that might be not that much disappointment to what's ha You know, so that's one thing I have in observing and then for her, I think, she try to understand both the society and the Termidor but she never ever understand that tomorrow, as we did you know, so, she has so much hope and confidence about her ability to convince but she did the coop has proved that that was failure, you know, at the same time, you know, the society is has been not the same as in 1988. So, she has to be very careful about reading the rest response of the society of the international community, but I think she cannot read that much very well. You know. So, the program is, I think, the, the way she has been dealing is more like focusing more on convincing the camera to change. At the same time, the way that Amador has been seeing her is to abusing hard to make the changes, established, something like that, you know, but the society has more towards way forward looking into the future, and very practical, you know, not just focusing on herself, you know, the Termidor, you know, society, that whole country, it has been pretty much ready to wave forward. You know, that's why I think that that this in this triangle, that the society is still winning Best what i i have been witnessing.
Host 1:51:23
So it sounds like you think that Aung San su chi 's biggest mistake or failure, as a leader, was seen a sign of optimism that the tomahawk can be transformed. Is that correct? Like a naive naivete, you could say? Is that correct? Do you think that's that was really the place where she went the most wrong during her years as leader?
Ma Thida 1:51:44
Yeah, that that was not just simply because of this opinion. But also, you know, that without a constitutions and some other things prohibited hard to make such a significant change. That's also we need to confess, you know, so yeah,
Host 1:52:01
you're right. And I think you also hit upon something, you mentioned it briefly, but I think it's worth underscoring, and expanding, you describe a history in Myanmar, not of systems that are able to govern and support the people and to be whatever those systems are to be effective, but rather, personalities and individuals. And there's been other there have been scholars and academics who have pointed to the role of Buddhism in this and within Buddhism, the role that a leader a king would have towards his people, and the people would have the reciprocal relationship back towards the king and the and how to this day, this still creates, this is still a problem in Myanmar, that leaders are end up having more power than systems or parties or processes or other things. And you pointed to this in your response as well, that this has been something of a challenge in Burmese history going back, that we haven't seen a lot of systems of any kind that have been built to be to be really equitable, and solid and fair and everything else. It's been a lot of the success of certain societies had been predicated on a single leader, and the personality and wisdom and even divine nature of that leader, being having the the adequate param ease and karma to be able to hold that position rather than than some of the institutions of civil society. And I think that's also where some people have been a little surprised or frustrated that it seems that she she is she has behaved in some ways that seems to have followed somewhat in that mold of having a very tight inner circle. And it's been said that, that she's been somewhat resistant to criticism and and has has, has valued a sense of loyalty on a personal level over perhaps wider civic decisions and political decisions going forward. So I also wonder if this this leader driven form of governance that we've seen in Myanmar if to what extent she continued to embody that and as we look at the revolution now and assuming that the people are to win and and to set up their, their new country, how there might be a way to break free of relying on on the personality or benevolence or wisdom of a particular person, but rather setting up systems that can succeed where the feelings of individuals might not you know, I
Ma Thida 1:54:44
think the the another thing is, people's too, misunderstand the teachings of the Buddha and tradition. For me that the king And the relationship with the key or the the personal set, the individual center leadership is not related to the Buddhism, you know, a lot of the tradition and because yeah, the real essence of the Buddha's teaching is not ever not related to the person's or individual, because the end that says there is no soul or no self, you know. So, it is the, for the tradition for the layman war, there might be something appreciated the leadership because in in this days, when the Buddha was was in the art, there was only the kingdom and the role of the King always matters in that sense. That's why, under nonetheless, the individual leader, good enough, we, the society cannot be good, something like that. So, in the real problem of our society is, you know, it's very hard to imagine the nation, the IP, the whole country is never been pretty much having a chance to discuss about what kind of society we really want to have, or pills, and the collective identity is never been discussed. Well. So that's why I think the in this sense, people try to try to use the emotion rather than knowledge to impose the society they want to live, you know, something like that. So it's very difficult, still very difficult. It is the biggest challenge is entered unless people believe in the collective identity and the collective leadership, but now is pretty much promising. That's all I can see.
Host 1:57:24
Yeah, I certainly hope so. And I have just one question, before we let you go. You were a young activist in 1988, which ultimately led to years of imprisonment as as a political prisoner of what your your book is mainly about. Sadly, tragically, there are so many Burmese youth today who grew up believing that this whole period you went through was a kind of closed book of, of history that especially the urban Bomar us that were growing up and did not actually know of this with any of their experience, and are now facing this head on and tragic and terrifying ways. And the Burmese prisons are now becoming filled with the, the these young people, these, these good hearted people striving for a change and sacrificing themselves for the betterment of their society. And the doors of the cells that you saw for the first time, they are now witnessing as well for the first time and trying to survive and to deal with. So much of your book is about your survival in prison, not just physical, but also your survival of ethical values, your survival of mental balance of spirituality. And as well as your your actual survival. We didn't even get into the health challenges that you had from lack of time and the fullness of your life. But that was also another very serious thing that you had to undergo, for those people listening, including those Burmese youth activists who are sacrificing so much and doing so much for their people in their country. Who might one day, let's hope not, but might find themselves in those in prison in those cells, and trying to survive as you did on those different levels. What advice or guidance would you give to them? How what would you like to speak to them from your own experience, from your wisdom and what you've learned in having lived through that and pass through?
Ma Thida 1:59:27
Well, I might see still be present, you know, we need to be very present to, to face everything. And another thing is we need to understand what was the past, you know, without understanding the past, we cannot make a better future. That's why at the same time, we need to be very present. And I think the another thing is the always focus on principle not on person. If under that unless we focus on principle, we will find the solutions very easily, and not making ourselves or the others desperate, because if we focus on people to solve the problems, at least one person should be desperate, something like that. So that's why the win. The winning secret will be focusing on the principle of focusing on the destiny, and keeping an eye on the will of the majority of people, not just one person or yourself, that will help solving the province easily. Empathy always matters and use your own empathy, to understand the society and fulfilling the needs of the others will make sure you will have your needs to something like that. So
Host 2:01:17
Well, thanks for those words. And thanks for the time that you took today to share some of your experiences over these years. And really appreciate you getting the chance to hear these words and reflections of your your perspectives and also some of the years that you've passed through. So thank you so much.
Ma Thida 2:01:34
Thank you, thank you so much.
Host 2:01:50
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