Transcript: Episode #101: Rick Hanson on Becoming An Ally
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Rick Hanson, which appeared on April 28, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said. See Rick’s website here.
Host 00:20
Welcome to the Insight Myanmar podcast. Before we get into today's show, I wanted to let you know that we have a lot more written and video content on our website. If you haven't visited yet, we invite you to take a look at WWW dot insight myanmar.org. In addition to complete information about all of our past podcasts, there's also a variety of blogs, books and videos to check out and you can sign up for our regular newsletter as well. But for now, enjoy what follows and remember sharing is caring.
Rick Hanson 00:55
Anxiety alerts us to roll through negative experiences can increase resilience good judgment comes from experience. But experience comes from bad judgment the point is that stress or negative experiences have a number of negative consequences. So what do we do about this? Ma Ma, Ma Ma Ma, ma ma Good day.
Host 02:32
Really happy to welcome Rick Hanson to the Insight Myanmar podcast. Rick, thanks so much for joining us.
Rick Hanson 02:39
I feel honestly honored to be able to be here. And I come with deep respect and gratitude for where you're doing, what you're doing Jolla and also more broadly, what the people of Myanmar are suffering through and grappling with right down both located inside the, you know, geographical borders of the country, as well as in the diaspora of many people who needed to flee to, you know, escaped persecution and atrocities of one kind or another. So serious, serious business and I feel very glad to be able to offer anything I can
Host 03:20
really appreciate that and look forward to what follows. And to introduce your background a little to our listeners. Let me quote a brief bio from your website. You right, Rick Hanson, Ph. D is a psychologist Senior Fellow of UC Berkeley's Greater Good Science Center, and New York Times bestselling author. His books are available in 30 languages, which with over 1 million copies in English alone. He's lectured at NASA, Google, Oxford, and Harvard taught meditation centers worldwide and been featured on BBC, CBS, NPR and other major media. So this certainly means we have a lot to discuss today. Before we get into some of the more serious stuff, because our podcast has its roots in examining the meditative traditions connected to me and Maher, which is really what we were prior to the coup. Can you share a bit about your background in meditation to our listeners? Hmm,
Rick Hanson 04:17
sure. Well, so I, I went to college in 1969, in 1974, in kind of locate me, therefore, and in the cultural trajectory of the last 50 years or so. And at the tail end of UCLA, I thought, Oh, I'd like to learn a little bit about Eastern philosophy and religion. And that opened the whole thing for me and introduced me to Buddhism, particularly in its expression in Zen. So I started doing very simple kinds of saws and with pretty much no idea what the world I was actually doing. And that still got me on my way. Was the years went by I became affiliated with At Spirit Rock meditation center in Northern California, pretty close to where I live. And partly because I just started going there with our family. And then that drew drew me in and that led over the last 30 years to I see a pretty thorough training in the Terra Vodun expression of Buddhists, and a pretty thorough grounding in early Buddhism, as it's summarized, as you know, primarily in what's called the Pali canon, the canon of discourses from the Buddha, and some of his contemporaries in the language of early Buddhism, namely Pali. So that's kind of my background, increasingly, I've been interested in bringing a kind of Manyana spirit of foregrounding and appreciation of notions of emptiness, and sort of the unconditioned ground of all combined with the rigor and the clarity and the precision and the moral foundations that we find in Tera Vaada Buddhism and in early Buddhism altogether.
Host 06:08
Thanks for that. That's, that's a great summary. In your own words, you've described a common theme running through your books as follows, quote, a recurring theme in my work is the need for mental resources such as mindfulness, self compassion, and positive emotions. We acquire these resources through learning. But there has been remarkably little attention paid to the actual how have growing such interest rates, and quote, I imagine that when you write this, you might be speaking more about strengthening inner resources within a somewhat stable functioning society, which is far from what we see happening in Myanmar right now. In a place where people are facing unspeakable horror and just trying to survive the day and the night and it's been over a year now, they are still experiencing such tremendous ongoing trauma, that most of the people I know, can't even begin to think about processing, what they've already faced. And because they're they're still just trying to get through basic survival, and all the trauma I had that has to be waited through to get there. So given this set of conditions, which might be quite different from where you've lived, and where you've written for people who are living, would you are there good mental practices, even under these conditions that you might be able to suggest to people to to follow and to carry on?
Rick Hanson 07:41
Right? Well, first off, you're absolutely correct to mark a distinction between the applications of most of my work as a, as an American psychologist, helping people in psychotherapy, and also more generally, in self help sorts of ways, human potential sorts of ways through books and classes and teachings, that's really different. My life is full of advantage and privilege and comfort. And most of the people I have tried to help are also have somewhat similar lives. So yes, that's absolutely different from what people are encountering, certainly Myanmar and, and actually here in the in America, some people are encountering or encountering really horrible conditions in my own country. So it's good to acknowledge that distinction. That said, the underlying idea that we deal with the challenges in our life, including extreme challenges of atrocities happening in our village or our family system, we cope with them, we gradually recover from them, and we offer help to others. And we try to preserve as best we can, in our innermost being a core of well being along the way, as we do that, we must tap into various strengths inside psychological resources of various kinds, including mindfulness, compassion, resilience, grit, spiritual practices, emotional intelligence, moral commitments, and so forth. The strikes, we draw on strikes, we must try and strikes and the worst. The worse it is, the more we need to draw on the strengths inside ourselves. The more that the world around us is unsupportive, if not horrible. We must draw on the strengths that we have inside us. So there's nothing la dee da or new age or privileged or American, about the whole notion of tapping strengths inside. It's really, really important. Now in the moment, that something terrible has happened running, you know, you're absolutely running for your life. You know, there you are, you're drawing on the strength of fleeing for your life. And there's not much else as possible, absolutely for sure. But if the dust settles just a little bit, and you can catch your breath, literally one breath, or two or three, at that point, there's always an opportunity for greater healing and learning and growing. And that's a that's an inalienable power that we have in our innermost being to influence who we are becoming, you know, as we come through these terrible conditions. How are we growing and developing along the way, right. So it's not just horrible. It's not just traumatic, that there's actually some development along the way, it was the Buddha who taught a long time ago, that suffering is the proximal condition for awakening, it actually is a factor of awakening, because it moves us in that direction. I can talk with you a lot about this specific how of developing and using inner strengths of various kinds, like resilience in a most fundamental way, we could talk more about that for sure. But in the moment, I could really offer three things that I think are grounded in science, and grounded in how the brain and body work together, that people can tap into, to deal with just really, really difficult situation. So maybe I'll just name them right here. Okay. So the first of course, is mindfulness Sati in Pali, the capacity to witness your experiences, rather than being completely consumed by them, completely swept along and hijacked by them. You get a little breather, you get a little space, a buffer between you and what's happening right there. Mindfulness, both of what's happening inside you. And mindful awareness of what's happening around you, is a fundamental strength in the inner resource that people can draw on when things are really difficult. A second that I just want to call out, is the feeling of heart. That there's a, there's a heartfelt connection between yourself in the world, there are people that you care about their people who care about you. Maybe there's a feeling of being connected to nature, and culture and the wider world in some way that's meaningful. Your heart is engaged. It's interesting that in French, the root of the word for courage is heart. And we need to tap into our hearts to be we need to be strong hearted, to deal with things. And in our evolutionary history as hunter gatherers who lived in close contact with others of their kind, feeling connected, and also tapping into heartfelt feelings that you're expressing are primal signals of safety. There, they really shore up our sense of being okay, like a fundamental basic okayness is supported by heartfelt pneus. So that would be a second one. And then just to finish a third, that's really wild terms of what's happening in your brain, when you do it, is to take a wider view, move into more of a bird's eye perspective, more of an objective, impersonal big picture perspective, even lift your gaze, to the horizon, to the to the larger space around you the room, you're in the wider context. As soon as we do that, as soon as we take that wider view, it tends to bring us into the present, neurologically. And it tends to relax, a certain amount of self preoccupation. And it helps us see the bigger picture the vaster frame, in which many, many things are actually going okay. Locally, it may be a complete horror show and a complete disaster. But when we lift our gaze to the horizon or to that bird's eye view, it helps us appreciate the larger hole helps us appreciate frankly, dependent origination, you know, interdependence interbeing is as the great tech not Han put it into being and that is a comfort that is a comfort in the moment. So right there, mindfulness, heartfelt pneus and a wider view are three things that people can do right in the moment, grounded in science, that can help them cope better and potentially even feel better, even in the midst of terrible things.
Host 14:44
Yeah, those are all really good things to hear and to keep in mind, and I want to present some actual details of the reality of what I know a lot of people are being faced with and what they're struggling with. I think it can be very valuable to match these techniques. and guidance with the real gritty reality of the situation. I, I've spoken to many people there who've had lifelong meditation practices, that when I asked them in the past year, if they're able to practice and how it's able to help, uniformly I get answers back that one is not able to sit inside one's mind in any position for even as long as as a few seconds under a minute, the stress and the trauma and the fear just overtakes one and one just simply as unable to rest in any meditation practice. Even in terms of ethical living, there are people I know Buddha's that have not really meditated all that much in their life. But they've very, very carefully follow the precepts. The five Buddhist precepts. And some of them have been put in, in in horrendous situations in which their family or community is suffering from the threat of abduction, terror, even death. And they've had to make the terrible decision to either outright take up arms and join and armed resistance. There are other people I know whose communities and families have come under threat of attack, abduction, torture, terror. And some have either outright joined the armed resistance because they simply don't know what else they can do to preserve life, and others who have supported it in more indirect ways that are a violation to these ethical precepts. They followed their entire life. And they these have been extremely traumatic and difficult decisions to have to make. So when I get some of these questions for people that have had a lifelong meditation practice, and can't even rest a moment in their own mind now, or people who have been example, examples, and pillars of some of the greatest nobility I've ever met in my life, that are now looking to turn to supporting something they never in a million years thought they would. I don't judge, but I also don't know how to help. I've never been through something like that. And I don't know what tools can come to support someone in living through these kinds of challenges. I I don't know if you have counseled people that have gone through this amount of stress and trauma and life danger? And if so what you've given them what you've discussed with them?
Rick Hanson 17:41
Well, first off job, it's really touching that you're so engaged with us. And I think in that is the beginning of an answer to this incredibly important. Even universal question you're asking that transcends Myanmar, it speaks to the horror show of human history, which is looked a lot like Game of Thrones, for the last 10,000 years since agriculture started enabling surpluses of food that enabled surpluses of wealth, and then surpluses of power to hold on to that wealth. And that's pretty much been the last 10,000 years of human history. So it's just touching, really, that you're engaged here and I bow to you for that. Second, my own background is, I would say, medium knowledgeable about trauma, there are people who are much more engaged in that. And as you know, you and I've had a little bit of back and forth in email. I've encouraged I think, finding people who both have expertise, and the neuro psychology of trauma and its treatment, and also have a deep grounding culturally, maybe in terms of their own nationality, in situations and in settings in which so many terrible traumas are being perpetrated. Those are really the best experts of all that said, that said, all try to take a swing at this. The key I think, deep down inside his motivation. It's hard to sustain motivation when you're clinically depressed or flooded with PTSD, underfed, fleeing for your life and flooded with worry and concern for other people. Absolutely true. Absolutely true. That said, as the Buddha taught, to quote the Pali canon, as he was doing his practices and approaching his own awakening, he said that painful wracking feelings arose in May, but they did not invade my mind and remain. And I think that distinction is crucial. What dwells within your heart? What has invaded your mind? and occupied, like an occupying power, like a military government. And it's important to be really careful about what we let invade our mind. And we have a lot of power there. Yes, I'm a longtime psychologist, intrusive thoughts, intrusive images, traumatic reactions can still certainly arise. And still, what is our relationship to those? Can we have a relationship of mindfulness to them as an absolute foundation practice, and a kind of circuit breaker, because as soon as we bring mindfulness to bear in our reactions, they are no longer invading us. Because we have some space between us and them. So that's absolutely fundamental. And I think people can do that they really can. Also, I think that people who are grappling with extremely tough moral choices, and are experiencing what some times is called Moral trauma, in which they a person is traumatized by witnessing the trauma of others, and including traumatized by the sense of helplessness at you not being able to stop it, and also a person is, you know, let's suppose in terms of moral trauma, maybe feeling a little guilty, like somehow they could have should have done more, or they're part of the problem altogether. You know, when you're in that kind of situation, you're really grappling with tough moral choices, and I can't suggest to people, you know which way to go, I do think that a touchstone for all of us is, first, to know that you're really doing the best you can, you're just doing the best you can make sure you're doing the best you can. But if you're doing the best, you can take refuge in knowing that you're doing the best you can, in the extraordinarily difficult circumstances you're in, let's say, and at the end of the day, try to take a wider view, you know, terrible things have happened throughout history, which is not to minimize any one of them. Terrible things have happened. Meanwhile, world keeps turning people find ways in different settings to have kind of an okay live, teachings can continue to proceed. And I want to be clear, I'm not minimizing anything, but I'm just making the point. That something that people who have found who have worked a lot with trauma and have a much deeper experience of my own have found is that it's especially important to be aware of the good that endures, the good that lasts even while and especially while we're dealing with a world of bad in our immediate situation.
Host 22:58
So we've talked a little about the frontline stress and trauma that those on the ground are facing. And I'd like to pivot and look at another set of people who might not be in immediate danger in their work, and yet have also not had it easy. These are supporters, allies, advocates, who are outside the country and doing what they can from afar. It includes a diverse range of people of Burmese diaspora, former expats for UN allies. Many of these people have all but stopped their normal lives for the past year to transform their normal patterns and have taken on endless hours and impossible tasks, sometimes dealing with life or death stakes, even if it's not their life, but being impacted by those whose lives are at risk. And so even though these people aren't exactly in danger, themselves, mortal danger of their own lives, they have come close to trauma of a number of different kinds that many have never experienced before, through their support and advocacy. And for this group of people, I'm wondering what kind of resources or thoughts or guidance you might have?
Rick Hanson 24:15
Wow. I mean, you're really talking about extremely important group of people, you know, and kind of more conventional terms, more normal range situations for caregivers, including, for example, people who are the caregiver of a dementing beloved and still dementing, spouse of 3040 years, you know, there's a lot of a lot of difficulty there in that role. Certain things strike me that seem generally really helpful and have been found to be helpful in working with trauma and communities of trauma really. The first is no surprise, social support. sense that there are others who are with you, you stand in common cause you stand in camaraderie with others who also care deeply about Myanmar who also perhaps have a shared spiritual practice who also whether or not they share your spiritual practice, share your moral commitment and outrage at, you know, the horror show that's being perpetrated, so that the sense of camaraderie and community Sangha, if you will, is crucially important. Second major finding about what helps us deal with trauma and also be a caregiver or an ally, for those who are traumatized is a sense of meaning and purpose. In other words, that serves a larger aim, there's a larger value that you're part of your your nourishing or supporting, it doesn't need to be super lofty, it could just be a sense of meaning and purpose in helping in the ways that you can each day doing what you can each day, that's a sense of meaning and purpose. Or it might be for a different person, a sense of enacting their bodhisattva vow, that they are committed in this life, to the liberation of all beings from suffering, which obviously includes the grosser forms of suffering and prison camps and, and, you know, other kinds of terrible situations. So, that sense of larger mission and meaning and purpose is a second thing. Third, respite, you you can't do this stuff, 24 hours a day, you need a break, you need to just disengage in whatever's available to you get a cup of tea, or watch a little television, pet your cat, read a story to your kids, step outside, look up at the trees, go to a movie, something anything, people need respite. Humans are strong, tough critters, we can handle a lot of sustained stress. But truly redline stress day after day. It's obviously horrible for someone who's suffering it. And it's also really horrible for a caregiver or ally, or advocate, who's just bearing and dwelling in all of that pain and suffering 24 hours a day, you need respite. It's really okay to take respite. And then you come out, and you keep on going. A fourth thing, and then I'll finish with this one, also, that has been supported by research is to, in your own way, maybe shaped by your culture, but definitely in your own way, having a sense of connection with whatever you want to call it, the universe as a whole the cosmos, the unconditioned, the absolute, the non dual, God, source, the ground, some sense of connection. And feeling rooted in some ways, in the infinite is for many, many people, a wonderful refuge and wellspring of resilience over the long haul. And I definitely wanted to name it here.
Host 28:28
So thanks for those answers. And I want to do a similar thing of going from the general guidance to a more specific set of conditions that that are being faced. And I think a lot of allies are probably listening to this, I would venture to say probably more allies and supporters would be listening to this than people actually on the ground, just given the nature of their safety and their lives. And to use myself as a case study for some of the things I've been through this year. I just want to give one anecdote of something that happened that really startled me. And that I think, in one way or another could be somewhat similar to what other allies are going through. I followed your advice many months ago and decided that I was going to stop working for an afternoon and take a walk in my neighborhood and do look at the sky breathe and feel, feel my body and I was doing that for about a half hour, 45 minutes. And as I walked by one house, a 14 year old or so boy stepped out of the house and he was all dressed in black. He had a big backpack. And I think he was wearing goggles or something and he was looking at it from later on. It was obvious he was just going on his own adventure. He was just a kid that was going to to go into the neighborhood and just have his own fun. But when I saw him come out of that house, I literally stopped paralyzed in the street because he was dressed in a similar way to at that time was 14 and 15 year old boys and girls in Myanmar were wearing when they walked on the street in a somewhat impractical hope of stopping bullets and batons from the police and soldiers killing them openly in the street. And some of our fundraising was going towards, I'm sorry, I'm getting emotional even talking about this, I suddenly, they happen and they're there. You know, you can't really think about them or talk about them much to get through the next thing. I'm just remembering my feeling. I, I see him dressed like this. And he looks like he looks like the fundraising that we're doing to try to send protective gear, to the Myanmar boys and girls that are being assaulted every day. And I just, I just broke down and cried, in the middle of the street, I broke down and cried, and I didn't know what I was seeing. I didn't, I didn't understand it. And, and I was in middle of the street, just crying. And, and it took me about a minute to realize that he was just a boy going on out of his house for an adventure. And because of how he was dressed I, I had this mental breakdown of not knowing where I was or what he was doing. Because I was so caught up in the images and the advocacy that we were doing. You know, that was trying to actually save lives in in such a terrible situation. And, and it was this kind of this kind of break of, of not knowing where I was or what was happening. And I think this is, um, you know, I think the fact that I'm breaking down now is kind of symbolic of, of the fact that I can't really think or talk much about these things because I have so much I have to get through. And I don't mean to put myself in any any position of of of that highlights me as anything special. I mean, to put myself as a case study that I think many people listening can identify this story with things that they have gone through, and that you can't really think about the stakes or the emotional impact of what you're doing. Because if you do you break down, you know it at 4am, I got a call that my friends, my friend who's hiding in the jungle, in his 20s Burmese guy, his mother was just abducted by the military and through our contacts, we found out that he's terrified and through our contacts, we found out even worse news that she was taken to a facility that is charged with assaulting people physically until they break Meishan she has no information to give this is this guy's mother who is has been taken by the authorities, there's no recourse anywhere, and she will, beaten as he's in hiding, and there is nothing anyone can do. And these, these are, this just happened hours ago, and I to get through it, I can't feel the pain of, of what is actually happening, because I won't be I do if I'm also breaking down. And so for those allies out there, like me that have either had moments where they broken down, like on the street with the kid walking to the house, or other moments where they're dealing with things day after day that they don't, they didn't think they'd ever have to deal with, but they can only deal with them by not really accepting the deeper part of what they're doing to be able to function. What, and in this case of walking outside, I was following the advice of letting go and, and, and doing something good for myself away from the crisis. And the crisis followed me. So, you know, I know there's a lot of allies around the world, diaspora and foreign that are really suffering with this trauma, even though their lives are not at risk. And we do have a privilege of safety that those don't have. But we also carry that emotional trauma. So I don't know what your thoughts are about all that.
Rick Hanson 34:05
Well, just so much in all that. And first and foremost, you're a person you're you're a human you're you're you have a tender heart, you're morally committed you're you know, carrying a suffering, Compassion means to suffer with right? You we feel it. And so I appreciate you and I feel for you and through you, as you make declared, you're not unique, far from it. And there are many, many, many other people who are who are facing similar feelings and similar kinds of issues. Of course, I know as you recognize, it's still important to do those things. Make a meal for yourself. Try to get some sleep. Have other things in your life besides your work your your political work, your your work for social justice, your your compassion service, you don't have other things as well. In your life, that's still true, even if, occasionally, you might walk down the street and be triggered by something back into, you know, let's say some traumatic memories you might have or or feelings is still worth doing those things, those forms of self care, in part because they're a service to others. As you fuel yourself along the way, you're more able, and we are more able to sustain the motherhood of social justice work broadly stated. So that's clearly true. I think it's also true. And I say this not as someone who's ever had to deal with this directly in the ways that you have. So I want to be clear, I'm not trying to I'm offering what I'm saying here differently. I think what I'm about to say, though, is supported by people who've done a lot of frontline work, like you're engaged with right now. That it's, it's really important to do what you can, to not have this invade your life and come and, and consume it, for the sake of those who are trying to help. Because when people get invaded and consumed, even under the best of intentions, by their empathy for the suffering of others, and their their their preoccupation, understandably, with the terror that other people are facing and feeling. If people get invaded by that, and consumed by that show, they tend to burn out, it's really hard to sustain effort over time. And so then we find that balance, somehow classic teaching in the Buddhist tradition, the balance of compassion, and equanimity, we must find those sources of equanimity, for the sake of sustaining our compassion. And of course, compassion warms up equanimity, which might otherwise seem too cool to call to untroubled. So it's really important to, to really find find that balance, and then we strike it morally, you know, when do we just take those three hours for a walk, let's say that, you know, you could spend those three hours, mobilizing petition signers or, or doing, you know, raising money in some way or doing some other kind of thing. And yet, you know, to be able to stay the course, you just need to take those three hours out, you know, for your own well being, and you make that choice. So, you know, making those choices, striking those bargains is is of course, a matter of personal priorities, and, and your own in your own personal wisdom about how to do that. But the underlying principle is really fundamental. Without some equanimity, it's really, really hard to sustain compassionate action over any kind of long period.
Host 37:55
So thanks for that. I think that one of the challenges that many activists and allies have is that there are so few people left outside of Myanmar who are really caring and supporting this issue that those that have decided to engage, I don't really know anyone that's done it halfway. I don't know anyone that knows how to do it halfway, it's been pretty honor off in black and white of what I've seen of both the diaspora as well as the foreign allies. And so once someone decides to step in a little bit, the the intensity of evil, the, the overwhelming suffering and need, that's there, it has been very challenging for everyone I know, to maintain a mental balance and the physical balance of activities over the course of so long when the stakes are so high, and there's so few other people that are doing anything. And so I think this kind of burden is something that everyone has chosen to advocate and support on behalf of the Burmese people right now. I think in one way or another, whether it's the examples I gave or viewers more towards depression, or anger or lack of sleep, or whatever anyone else is happens to face whatever specific examples. I think that, that so many of us right now outside the country whose lives are safe, are, and I know this from the conversation, the conversations I'm having are dealing with this trauma and burden that is has no end in sight. And and so I think everyone's just doing the best that we can but it's it's hard. I there's not really a question there. It's more of a an observation.
Rick Hanson 39:41
Well, maybe I could turn a question to you, Joe. When I think about this sort of things, I think about the great Tecton Han, for example, and someone who certainly was very aware of horrors in the Vietnam War and has been a relentless advocate for pays, I mean, can you draw on teachings from people like teknon, on about how to sustain both advocacy and activism for social justice, including for the people of Myanmar, while also can maintaining a spiritual practice and preserving a core of well being inside? I mean, can you turn to teachers like Tecton? For comfort and wisdom?
Host 40:26
Yeah, I think that's the goal. That's the goal for for all of us that we strive for, I think people's social justice, background and spiritual background, differ according to their path. But I think that's what everyone is trying to do. Of course, the trauma and the intensity and the stories are such that one breaks down and picks oneself back again and tries again and tries to learn from it and tries to stay affirmed and committed to this path while also looking after oneself and whatever that kind of spiritual practice is. And that connects to the last question I want to ask. I want to, it's interesting, because I see through your writings that you have hit upon a word resilience that comes up quite a bit. This is also a word that has become kind of an emblem of this past year, it's a bit of a controversial word, actually, in the Myanmar context, some, some have felt that resilience is a very powerful defining word of what the Myanmar people have gone through. Others have expressed the word as being actually somewhat triggering, because it's kind of a positive spin on a world forgetting and turning their back on people that are suffering. So they have nothing left to do but be resilient, and that the word kind of covers up the shame of how they've been left alone to fend for themselves and sometimes be judged doing it. And so there is this kind of divide of what resilience means and the context of it and the application, and how it defines the Burmese people now. And with that context in mind, and with the fact that this has also been something in your spiritual teachings that you have taught, what can you say about the power of resilience now in this context?
Rick Hanson 42:18
Right, I definitely understand the critique. And I think it's an interesting one, and I get to use an analogy. Someone might say, well, if it's true and probably is not true in many places, well, at least the people of Myanmar have access to water. Now, someone could say, well, you're using that statement, as a way to shift the attention away from what they do not have, and in fact, away from all the ways that they're being mistreated with this sort of face saving bit that oh, well, at least they have water. That's a legitimate critique. On the other hand, it's good to have water, right, it's good to have water, it's good to have resilience. Resilience is a simple psychological characteristic that people can have more or less of. And it certainly helps people individually, cope and function with terrible situations, and to protect kind of a fundamental core of well being inside along the way. And you can think of countries or command communities and organizations too, that are more or less resilient in terms of their capacity to manage challenges without being destroyed by them. So resilience is a good thing. Resilience is a good thing. It's not good, of course, to you know, wave one's hand at a whole country full of people who are being terribly treated, and to say, well, you all are really resilient. Now, I no longer need to pay any attention to you. Now I am just going to wander off to my comfortable upper middle class, life in America or other major developed countries of the world, wealthy countries of the world. You know, that's not a good thing. Obviously, that's not a good thing. But just because that's not a good thing. Does not itself mean that water is not good, or that resilience is not good.
Host 44:21
Well, I thank you for that. I thank you for sharing these thoughts on such a serious matter that so many people are going through and for taking your your time today to share your good wishes and your insights from your past experience and teachings
Rick Hanson 44:36
chose the least I could do and major boughs to you and your and your colleagues or allies and all those who are doing the best that can really for the people of Myanmar.
Host 44:55
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