Transcript: Episode #100: Mratt Kyaw Thu

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Mratt Kyaw Thu, which appeared on April 21, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Mratt Kyaw Thu  00:01

I don't get any no you know nobody leaky coma, so called seated in a tea in UK nearly the top Dhaka PDF uploaded by boy anyway

Host  00:42

before we start today's interview, please allow me a word or two about our podcast. Even as Myanmar plunges into a civil war because of the military's bloody coup, the international community and media organizations all but turn their backs on the country and its people. But this humble platform is committed to staying the course. We conduct nuanced long form interviews with a variety of guests connected to Myanmar, so our listeners can better understand the ongoing crisis. Thank you for choosing to spend the next couple of hours with us today. At the end of the day I'm pleased to be joined today by retro to a reporter who has been active for the decade prior to the coup reporting on many issues going on in Myanmar and has been particularly active after the coup as well. And we're going to be checking in with him about his journalistic career and thoughts about reporting following the coup. Rob, thanks so much for joining us here on this episode of insight Myanmar podcast.

Mratt Kyaw Thu  02:39

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Host  02:43

Right. So let's get to some of your background before the coup took place and even some of your background before your journalism career took place. So can you tell us where you come from what part of the country a bit about growing up and family and community life before you became a journalist?

Mratt Kyaw Thu  03:01

Yeah. So I you know, I was growing up growing up at a very remote village and western part of the country. So the western part Rakhine State is that was really like notorious with the Rohingya, his orders and the clearance operation of the Nima military in 2016, and 17. So we have to, like literally two parts and Rakhine State, my native state, where there are southern part of the state and the northern part of the state. So in northern part of the Rakhine State, they're like and their inhabitants there are like very religious people and very like kind of a nationalists, people live in there, and then those people are like more or ethnocentric people. And then in the south, the southern part of the stage are the people who are more focused on the business and other trade stuffs. So I will say my native Rakhine State is divided, not literally, like, psychologically divided into two parts southern and northern. So I'm from Southern part of the states. So when I started my carrier in 2010, a lot of people criticize me when I was writing and reporting about my native towns and other stuff like Muslims versus Buddhists, and issues and then some other issues like you know, Rakhi I rivers and as like Rohingya organizations, so when I was reporting this kind have issues like my native people in my southern part of the states, you know, said that all this reporters from Rakhine state reporting about the very sensitive, sensational and very sensitive issue like Muslims and Rohingya and Rakhine stuffs because it's really really sensitive for my own people in my in my state because you know, you cannot talk about Muslims people. You cannot talk about Christianity you cannot talk about the other religious and ethnic styles too much before 2012. So I started mailing carrier on 2010. So, in 2012 there are religious tensions between Muslims and Buddhists communities and Rakhine State, like from 2012 that tensions started to grow across the country like and Matey LA, Nina Yangon and other big cities. So, I will say the tensions between the religious organizations and religious communities started from Rakhine in 2012. So, before the 2012 like they are with so much stories between the Muslims and right kinds and like even in 18th century and like a lot of some Burma, Rakhine invaded you know, Burma, Kings invaded Rakhine State. So, this kind of tensions rooted in the community, but in 2012 is the was the biggest and most can I say, it's really tense here is for the whole country because you know, one Rakhi girl who was raped and killed and murdered by the three Muslims, Zhang Zhang Muslims there. So, from that news, that news, you know, sparked the whole country. So, from that moment, like the religious tensions ago, you know, went on and on across the country. So, I am from that state. So, I know how people think on the news of, you know, related with Muslims relative with related with Rakhine and some other stuffs. So, you know, I was growing up in that kind of community, you know, since I was born, so, I moved to Rakhine in 2005. Because, you know, if you want to learn further studies of like higher education, we have no proper education, EMI states, so, you have two options to go to Yangon, the capital of the country or the that city, the capital city of the state Rakhine State. So there's two way so so two is the capital city city itself, kind of a remote capita, but it's the it's considered the most tablet, city, a town in the whole state. But you know, most of the Rakhine young people they just moved to Yangon for the father studies or to earn more money by walking like other gold trading and other trading stocks, because you know, oh, the whole state is kind of was separated by the mountain range with the Beaumont majority the territory so the whole state is kind of isolated from the major part of the country. So if you're like, you know, when I moved to Yangon, as you know, some someone asked me where are you from? And then I said I'm from Rakhine, and then they told me where is it you know, why is you know, on you talking the Rakhine in essence, you know, Did you are you are you are speaking the tama like essence because, you know, southern part of the Rakhine State speaking more like Bahmani Gerety like Essent so you know, some of the people are in Yangon and other big cities they don't really distinguish between the South and Rakhine and northern Rakhi and other areas to like if you come from Kachin State, you know, some people in Yangon, where x you where you from and then someone Our answer that you learn from the kitchen all kitchens are like you like this kind of weird and awkward question. They always ask, you know, many ethnic people as periods, that kind of awkward moment in their life. So, you know, I moved to Yangon in 2005. So, and then I attended tech on university from 2005 2009. So, English specialization, so after that most of the young people, like including me, we didn't have any idea where to cool, you know, for the another, like vocational schools or training, we've had no idea because, you know, before 2010 It was like, everything is dark, you know, you don't have any future, you know, clear path to move on. Yeah, so, yeah, so, so when I, I graduated in 2009, you know, I had no idea what to do next. So, so, but, you know, there's no, there was no political activities and a school university, you know, we can compare the situation before the coop around 2015 2016. Because no, before 2010 like me university life, there are no students unions, there are no, like, we could see some other football team or some other like, reading club, that's all but normal political activities, but after 2010 and 2011 12, like, more and more like some students, young students, they tried to reform the student unions, they tried to re establish the former legend you know, students unions and Yangon University and other university too. So, you know, I was like, growing up in a dark age, so, yeah. So, yeah, I then I joined the sun philanthropic groups, like some Korean funded organizations and some organizations related with the US aid organization. And so they give some small grants and funds to the small civil society organizations in Yangon and other remote area. So I joined one philanthropic groups there, so I had some other friends there. And then one of my friends told me to, to get an interview at the newspaper, which is, you know, the newly formed a newspapers to publish a newspaper with the funding of a political party, ethnic political party. So why join in after I've done one year of philanthropic works, there, you know, I became a journalist.

Host  13:14

Right, that's quite a story bringing you to what your current profession is, and, and coming from a more coming from a place outside of the Capitol and then being an ethnic minority and suddenly Nan and talking about what it was like to integrate into, into the city. So from the time that you move to Yangon, have you basically settled and remained in the capital? Or have you have you lived and traveled in different parts of the country?

Mratt Kyaw Thu  13:44

It's like, you know, it's, it's not like here in Spain, you know, if you're living in Galicia or Valencia, or Barcelona or some other southern or northern part of the country, you can easily move to Madrid, the capital of a country, it's really easy for the people like for your information, like oh, if you're living in Texas, or other West Coast, and you can, you know, go to New York very easily, but am I country is not like that. Because, you know, in my country, like if you want to go to Yangon, when you are living in very remote area of the country, it's really expensive for like to for for the bus or for the highway spreads or the flight, you know, before 2010 Like most of the, like 95% I will say 95% of the people and ethnic states and regions. You know, they couldn't afford to get a flight from the from from their state and regions to go to a young capita. They couldn't afford it. So you know, if you can get some something like some cave or some, you know, if you even if you could watch a movie in the capital, Yangon and Myanmar, you know, it will be a biggest story if you come back to your native so it's really a story story. Like for example, I grown up with the like a second graded T to PlayStation two game mitching. But you know when I was like playing the PlayStation two in my hometown like it, we thought that this is the biggest latest technology for us. But at the time and Yangon, everybody is playing the PlayStation four. So this is a this is a very big difference for the young people and Yangon and other area of the countries big difference so you cannot watch the Batman the latest Batman movie and when you're leaving the right kind of good channel, or chin. So it's really difficult to get in. So every manga books, like comic books, or when you're when you were reading when you're young, it's really outdated like five years or 10 years outdated. Then in the the latest one in Yangon. So, this is this is a very big difference. So when I, I came to Yangon, so I had to, you know, follow the trends and follow the environment of the culture and everything I tried. You know, the best I try to follow all those kinds of cultures, you know, not not only me all the ethnic boys and girls who came to Yangon for further study, they they they had to try like me to, you know, to even to adapt the environment. This is this is very big difference for all of the ethnic people in my country. So, yeah, so after that, yeah, yeah, cool.

Host  17:03

So you're talking about something of like a culture shock coming from not just coming from like the countryside to the big city, but even even more so coming from from a different culture of living in Rakhine communities, as you mentioned, and other people that would be coming from chan or kitchen or current communities, into a not just a country to an urban environment, but also a cultural shock of, of, of the dominant ethnicity that you're now living in. Can you give any you mentioned how you also have to adjust to that in some ways and learn how to integrate into a new kind of environment with which is culture shock. So can you give any examples of what that transition was like, like things that you had to overcome or learn or integrate or adapt that was that that would give an indication of what it was like to have to settle into this new culture.

Mratt Kyaw Thu  17:58

I think I was a little bit of a, I was lucky because, you know, when, before I came to Yangon, I read a lot. I mean, a lot a lot, because I decided in my hometown, that I found some kind of motivational books that say, you know, you have to read, if you go to a big series, you know, you should, you should have more knowledge, you know, because, you know, you have to deal with the wolves in a big city. So I read a lot. And, you know, I even decided to read every single books in my hometown, so I did it. So, you know, the final destination for me in my hometown to read the whole library, the biggest library in my hometown, so I didn't finish it. But you know, I did read every, like single books, apart from the library, the the township library, so that actually feels me, like, some kind of knowledge to survive in the big cities. As big as you know, a lot of people in my country and before 2000, I will say 2010, like a lot of young people, they, a, they read a lot like die deck for the people like me, who came from that ethnic area of the country, they had they read a lot. So that kind of action actually affect to the ethnic people because, you know, most of the success story like open and the Secretary General at any United Nations, and, you know, he's the first bommies citizens you know, enter the United Nations. So that kind of story is motivated a lot of young people in my countries. So Bhutan is not from Yangon. So he's from the, you know, remote area of the country. So Most of the people think that if you're going to be kind of going to struggle, or to survive, if you want to survive in a big city, you have to read. And then you know, and then it's not really important. It's the front, you know, it's not really important that Where are you from? Like that. So, you know, when I was younger, I read a lot. I read a lot, a lot, like, every, like, magazines, and all those books, like every kind of books that really motivated me, actually. And I still believe that the reading books you know, that change? The a lot?

Host  20:49

Yeah. So you said that, in your early journalistic career, you were writing about some of the realities of the different religions, and ethnicities, especially in Rakhine State, and how they interacted towards each other, and some of the reality of that situation, and you got a lot of pushback and criticism, what exactly were you writing to describe the relations between these different peoples? And what kind of pushback Did you receive?

Mratt Kyaw Thu  21:15

So, you know, as I said earlier, like, the religious problems and issues before 2012, those issues were never mentioned, and, like mainstream media's or novo, so, you know, you cannot read this kind of stuffs and at like, anywhere, you cannot, you can find it, this this kind of issues, because, you know, it was burned by the government, like, before 2010 It's the military government, but, you know, the most of most of the young people didn't realize that we lived in, under the military government, but after 2010 Most of the people, they just realize that, you know, we have to change something. So, before that, as I said, most of the people the if they want to read like kind of novels, which like, which, which is another, right, and Muslims, girls, and the boat is boy, who are in relationship, and then you know, their, their, their parents didn't recognize them as a cupboard, this kind of stuff, you know, and personally, I really wanted to write this kind of novels, you know, that Muslims are girl and Buddhists boy, how the relationship go on with the kind of back there background, a parent's background, our culture, this kind of stuff. But until now, you cannot find this kind of nervous or articles. You can you can read it in anyway. So after 2012, this is the, you know, after the religious tensions in Rakhine, that change the perspectives of the whole country a lot, because you know, in 2012, and 2014 and 2015. There, there were a lot of religious tensions and Androids and crisis, religious crisis, and the whole country. So after that, most of the people started to talk about the religious tensions between the communities like nobody's really talked about the Hinduism, or like Christian Christianity before 2012. So because, you know, I will say some somehow the crisis religious crisis and tensions in 2012 changed the country a lot. Because, you know, I personally witnessed, like many events between the Rakhine and boaters and the boat is an BoatUS bit even in the boaters communities like can Matey law, some Ultra nationalists people killed the normal civil the this kind of stuff in 2012 and 2014. So, when I was studying my when I started my career in 2010, like it's just a year that Johnson City has a he was released from the prison and a lot of things going on, and then the new government, like quasi government would be insane. So he has like half half of his government is appointed by the military and half of them are, like pretended like a civilian government. But the bright side of things in government is he reformed a lot like that, you know, Obama, Barack Obama came to the country and a lot of many enemies His stories like, you know, you can read on about my country on Washington Post CNN, New York Times almost every week. And then a lot of international foreign investment came in and after 2010 election, so this is the like, golden year. You know, and then I think, what do you think government can handle somehow the religious tension between 2012 and 2014. But the latest story after 2015 is another story. But, you know, in 2000, between 2010 to 2015, like 2014 to 2015, we journalists always remember this car debts year between 2014 and 15, as the golden year of the journalism, because you can, you could write everything you want. But yeah, you know, it's in 2014 and 15. Like, and then, like, in 2011, like most of the zine media's, which left and to, which is most of the exam media, which were established, and after 1980 uprising, so they left the country like most of the students, they left the country and form the new media agency and daily Chima in Thailand, like, some people are in Singapore, and some people are in Norway, like that. So in 2000, after 2011, they, they just came back to the country. And then they started their news organizations in the country. So it's, it's like a, you know, many young people, including me, we started to apply, you know, to apply the journalism and, and then, you know, you can even get a job at any news media, because you know, and then if you are a Syrian Journalist, like, if you have three years of journalism, and small media, you can get like $400 or $300 per month, it is this is a very, you know, it's a golden time for the journalism industry. And we always remember that time. But you know, after 2015, it changed a lot. So, before 2015 EBI, everyone's idea, every journalist idea is, you know, after 2015, we expected that, you know, we have that kind of sources and kind of sources that sources inside the president's house or sources inside the ruling parties or associates inside the military, that kind of sources we always write in, in our news story. So but you know, some of the stories we cannot write, we cannot mention the names of the sources. But we know that most of the story, if one newspaper always mentions their sources at sources inside the military, or sources inside the prisons, this kind of thing that someone is using that newspaper from the government, from the military, that kind of mindset we had, but we as better that that kind of sources will be damaged or won't be disappeared after 2015 Because, you know, in 2015 Most of the people believe that Johnson City would win the election landslide, and because, you know, we, we were sick of the military and the you know, the quasi government, so we were sick, the whole country is sick of them. So most of the people a spit a lot from the National League for Democracy Ennedi party, and from Johnson City to so you know, there are too much as petitions from Dalton Suchi. And, and hot potty and Eddie. Yeah.

Host  29:18

So you mentioned how the early 2000 10s Was this golden years of journalism, and you were, of course, a journalist during that time taking advantage of those freedoms and the ability to write and think and travel to a greater extent than ever before. Going back a few years and looking at your entry into the journalism field, which I believe was 2010 Can you share why you wanted to become a journalist what as your career was developing as you were going through school and looking at your life ahead? Why did you choose journalism as the field that you wanted to go into?

Mratt Kyaw Thu  29:52

Um, honestly, you know, I didn't have any idea to be debated or writer so whatsoever but you know, As I said before, like, when you, you know, when someone is studying, like English specialization or economics or like the Myanmar major, or anthropology or whatever you, you know, you study, it's really doesn't affect to your carrier and my country and then you know, whatever you take, like, if you're, even when you if you finish or if you graduate with medicine, like some of the doctors, they change their carrier to the writers, that kind of stuff. So I finished I graduated with English specialization, but you know, I had no idea where to go. So, you know, accidentally, one of my friends told me to and to get an interview at the newspaper, and then I became a journalist. But, you know, personally, you know, as I said, I read a lot, and then I more interested, I was more interested in politics, and religion stocks. So, you know, in the newspaper, I work in 2010, as they their background fun, like, I say, ownership, their ownership of the newspapers. Ethnic political party, so white tiger, we call it white tiger party, so, and bommies, we call it job to party. So they're the, you know, in 2010, a lot of political parties, they formed many newspapers with their own money. So they wanted to influence the audience with the editorial influence. So in 2010, with my editors and newsrooms, we agreed that not to be influenced by the political parties, the ownership. But later after three months, like the political party, they tried to influence the newsroom's like, that's not only us, like some other political party state formed and they gave money to former the newspapers like entity to the ruling party and another opposition party after 2015 the ustp unions solidarity party, they also form a newspaper too. So commercially, I mean, not like, like a journalistic newspaper you can afford, but they declare that we were we will go as you know, with journalists and standards, like the deadline is a deadline is the NLD mouthpiece and then at the Union, that that is the USDP mouthpiece. So, you know, we had this kind of propaganda newspapers. So the one that the newspaper I walked is also was also a kind of propaganda but we I didn't realize that I you know, it first, but after three months, they started to influence the newsrooms, editorial policy. So, you know, I personally say, you know, fuck you. I mean, literally, I told them, and then I even kick the tables at the newsroom newsroom in the newsrooms, and then you know, I quit. So, because, you know, at the time, almost, like, most influenced and you know, well, the political bodies, you know, they they form a newspaper, they bought a newspaper, this kind of things. So, a bit after 2010 and then to the till to 2012. You know, I, I worked at the mizzima Media Group. That's it that that is one of the biggest mainstream media right now. So mizzima was once an exam media, they form a New Delhi and then they have their own office and Chima. And so, after 2010, the new government and then in 2011, the Ministry of Information announced that, you know, all the media's who are in who are who were exiled before 2010 can come back to the country that so you know, mizzima media is one of them. So I worked with them till 2012. So, you know, in 2012, like, like we have our own, how can I say it's a contribution fee? So like, if You can earn, like 2000 chats like 2000 right now and one $1. And this time, so if you can earn $1 at a time and a one day so it, you know, your superstar journalists at the time in 2000 toys. So if you can write like two or three stories in your, in your newspaper, like so you can get like three or $4 per day. So you're, you know, you're super rich journalists. So, you know, like all the reporters the the children the every, like a fire broke of stories and and the flood stories were those stories, you know, like you can see every reporters and every events and moments and accidents everywhere. And then you know, that that's why I told you that this is the honeymoon and Gordon Jia of the journalism. You know, I, I personally developed my I can as a carrier from 2012 to 2015. So, so I was promoted to editor, sub editor and the editor and mizzima So I did a lot of crime stories there. The interesting thing is, before 2015, I experienced a lot of government techniques that they they've done before. 2015 is the land grabbing stories. So if you can check the histories of events between 2010 and 2015 There were a lot of news stories about land grabbing. So before 2010 Like after 1988 A lot of military the days they seize the lands and like across the country. So they owned like many important and crowded areas of the public area. The military owns it. So you know they occupied like in Rakhine State, like the most beautiful place in Rakhine State is a Nepali beach. So some of the people can might know that place the most beautiful like before 1980 The most beautiful beach in the world Napoli beach, so the whole show and the beach is owned by the military. So not only nipply like and and eastern part of the country we have the one township called giant dome. So British called that city is kingdom. So in that city, the most beautiful place in areas are owned by the military Auntie now and it's Shan state two and in MO You are and other in Mandalay, like, you know, in Mandalay, it's obviously the palace, the palace, it's in the center of the town is owned by the military. So you can imagine that, so after 2010 A lot of people across the country, they reclaimed their ownership of their land before you know, 2010 which, which were seats by the military are occupied by the military. So the old days in government, they try a lot to give this kind of lens to the original owner. So people like the old things in a lot because, you know, they have their own lens back that the ancestor you know, last for 2010 and then a lot of stories on going on between like 2012 2013 You know, you can see every product on the streets in Yangon and Mandalay that all all like 90% of the protests about land grabbing, but you know, what the the what the media and newspaper could do at the time is like if you run a story on the front page, or the second page or the third page, one land grabbing stories, like you know 10 or 20 people from a small village and near Yangon protested in the downtown about the land grab and like 20 years ago, and then you will run that you will run that story on the front page. So after maybe two or three days, the states I they spawn states back newspaper announced that we gave them back this, this kind of thing. So people really believe and the newspaper that oh, you know, if you protested, and if you protest, or if you reclaim your ownership on the streets, you know, you can easily get it back. So, you know, there were a lot of stories like like fake fake stories, and then scam, like some some reporters, like I went is that the kind of stories that some reporters and Shan State and Mandalay they even organize people fake people. And then they organize the people who didn't who don't actually lost their lens, and then they pretended that they lost their lens before 2010. And then the reporters organized the protest on the streets, and then they run a story on the newspaper and the television, so after three days, you know, the, the government gave them back this kind of scam and fake story. So so, you know, the newspapers and media, they, you know, they were really powerful at the time. So most of the people was they are really eager to read the newspaper in the morning, you know, we have like more than 100 newspapers, including John weekly, John is at the time so you can you imagine that? We have like, like, in the big cities, like we have 5 million people in Yangon. Like one or two millions in Mandalay? Like what like almost everyone like who can read. They are, you know, really eager to wake up in the morning to read newspapers. You know what that newspaper says, you know, which media will say something? This kind of thing? Yeah,

Host  41:58

that's Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. And it reminds me of reading about the colonial experience in Myanmar, that there's a statistic that when, when England when England first took over Myanmar as Burma at that time, as a colonial as a colony, that the literacy rate in Myanmar was considered to be higher than that in England itself. And the I think this, this is a testimonial of the love of reading and the love of learning that you see both now. And when, when the sensor, the state sensor resigned his position, and there was greater freedom as well as historically and how just that that hunger and that eagerness to want to read and want to learn. I have a question, though, about the looking at the nature of journalism. And I think it's so interesting when the state sensor resigned his position. And then there there was just an opening and a flourishing and freedom of speech and expression that was able to happen, that that couldn't happen prior to that I'm looking at journalism specifically. You know, it's interesting, because you talk about the ties of journalism, to politics and to parties and the influence of those organizations, whether they're ethnic organizations, whether they're seemingly democratic organizations like the NLD, or whether they're the military or ustp, the political party of the military, that all of them are from the way you describe it sounds like are trying to control or manipulate media in some kind of way that's favorable to them, which in a democratic society is there, they're there, there has encouraged to be more of a separation than these than a control or manipulation. But perhaps this is the the system being what it's been for the last number of decades and generations, this has been slow to move. On the other hand, I've also heard that there's for those that are getting for those journalists that are wanting to get into the field, that there's long been a kind of intersection between activism and journalism, and that some, some people who have cared a lot about certain issues and wanting wanting to be activists has have seen journalism as a way that they can combine with their activism, which is I think, in a Western sense is also somewhat problematic. We see in the West, we see a more distinct separation between what we like to call objective journalism. And in my opinion, there's no such thing as purely objective, we have to look at, you know, where the bias is where the even if that bias is not known, and we have to identify it and talk about it because none of us are completely objective creatures or or platforms. However, there is an intention to want to be able to identify that bias and separate that out. So that when you look at the goals of political parties, governments, militaries, ethnic groups, or organizations or even progressive activist causes, that there there is a way to, to try to carve out an independent journalistic space where the these, these two objectives are not being combined and one can look at, one can have a more intended objective journalistic experience with reporting on issues of ethnic interests or government or, or even activist causes, but that they're not one in the same. So I wonder what your thoughts are of, especially of this golden period and of this opening up in journalism did, and perhaps concerns you had have, where there was intention to try to combine different things in the name of journalism in order to promote oneself for one's cause, or where there there was a real attempt to try to create a more objective structure of what the journalism was, was supposed to be or or trying to carve out?

Mratt Kyaw Thu  45:59

Oh, yeah, this is quite a very complex scenario in my country, because, you know, like, I always used to give an example of the political situation in my country, during, after 2010, because, you know, in my your area, and remote area of the country, a lot of people like after 2012, many people can could use could buy a SIM card with $1,501 right now. So they can, they can open a Facebook account, like that after 2012. So, so many people, they don't really, they didn't have, they didn't, they cannot, they couldn't afford to buy the Nokia 3310 model before 2012. So it's like, it's like a boom, for everyone like this, like one, like one person of the population, they had watch the, they could afford to buy color Food TV, before 2010. Like that. So in my native village, like we, we have 350 households in my village, but we only have one television. So if you want to go to if you want to watch a movie, or televisions or state news, you have to go to, you know, a certain AI house, you know, in the center of the village, so you can watch news there. So that's kind of them, but after 2012, like everything was bombed. And then like, almost everyone's, like, you know, you know, immediately on the some kind of another level of the technology. So in the media industry, that also happened to because, you know, most of the news before 2000 times or more like business news, like some price of the acts were increase, or some price of the sweater or clothes were decreased. That kind of news, we had to read before 2010. But after 2010, like in even 2014, after I personally involved in a protest, to reopened to newspaper which were banned by the censorship board and to 2014. So in 2014. Me and other I think 120 journalists and other legal designers and photographs, we protested to reopen the two newspapers in 2014. So at the time, after we protest after our protest, the the government the abolish, the censorship bought in 2014. So, you know, you can see the result that, you know, after your protest, that that censorship board was abolished and removed from the department. So, this is a kind of achievement for the for the journalism industry. But, you know, after 2015, like, as you said, a lot of students from the Students Union, they moved into a journalism industry, it's and then, at that moment, like, everyone's talking about the journalism everyone's talking about the activism. The time Yes, it's really mixed up. And then, like, we can divide into three categories. One is by the political parties influence newspapers. And another one is the business, commercial newspapers. And another one is like, really, as you said, like a subject that newspapers at a time. So so with the political parties influence newspapers at the time that they, they wanted to go both way with a commercial and a political. So, you know, they aimed, actually they aimed to the 2015 election. So most of the political parties, which formed a newspaper before 2015 were that their aim is to influence the people in 2015, general election, so that's why they established a lot of newspapers and online media before 2015. And so at the time, other like students unions, and then others, more activists, like newspapers, also Mr. To the time, but after 2015 general election, those newspapers, and those kind of activist like, journalists were gone. They disappeared after 2015 It's really interesting. Yeah.

Host  51:30

Right, thanks. Thanks for that explanation. I want to move to looking at the Rohingya issue. This is something that as you referenced in the very start of the conversation, this is a crisis that is from the region where you're from and so you have an up close and personal relationship to it. And you were also as I understand one of the first reporters to start to report on the issue and write about it and actually be on the front lines and follow what was going on that issue is so important in and of itself, also in understanding the current crisis. enqueue and so I think your understanding and research of it at the ground level from an early date can be insightful for listeners to to hear what you were seeing and what you're reporting on from the very beginning. So take us back to maybe perhaps first your own experience of just living there as things started to develop and growing up and then as you started to first go there and file reports and see firsthand what was actually taking place.

Mratt Kyaw Thu  52:37

Yeah, okay. So you know, from the beginning, I think I mentioned that we have two parts and southern part and northern part and the Rakhine State so in, like, I even remember to one moment that when some family moved to my neighborhood, so my mom called me and uh, you know, a kid, new family arrived in our neighborhood and then my mom called them Rakhi. So we are, I'm leaving, I was leaving and my whole family is in Rakhine, but when someone some family moved from northern part of the state that Rakhine State we call them also Rakhine family. So like, that's why right now, a lot of people from the northern part of the state always criticize the southern part is not Rakhine State. And then the southern part of the Rakhine State also criticized the northern Rakhine people as very ethnocentric people this kind of a nuanced issue so happiness they happen in in in Rakhine State. So that that's the environment we have to deal with. So after 2025 religious tensions and crisis like the most significant and and southern part of the Rakhine State is you know, before 2000 2012 Like the Rakhine people and southern southern part of the Rakhine state they didn't really realize that they are Rakhi because you know, the end the event like ceremonies are traditional ceremonies and traditional wedding. We didn't normally play the tradition of drums Rakhi and drums, but after 2012 Like after the religious tensions and crisis religious tensions and crisis like most of the people really arch encourage the young people to be family and to be more close with the Rakhine traditions. So after that, you you you could see the drakh Rakhine tradition drums play played at the ceremonies and traditional weddings they are. That's the significant ends after 2012. So after that, after in 2015, after the general elections, you know, Dalton Suji and Ennedi party won a landslide victory in 2015. So, after that, like most of the people, actually, most of the people a spit, it's too much from adults and Suchi and the energy party after 2015 election. So, you know, before after 2015 2016, like, do you know that many you can, you can see, on the van door, though, you can see the every newspaper with the front page of Johnson City picture. So there was one saying even that, you know, if you don't put Austin City picture, on the front page, your your papers won't be sell, or be sold. You know, that's kind of sayings we heard ad between after the 2015 election, so you have to put on sensory cheese picture on the front page at the time. But, you know, after to look around mid of 2015, a lot of newspapers started to criticize about like 100 days, off the new government 100 days of the new ruling party, that kind of stuff, we started to write on the newspapers. So from that moment, like most of the audience of the newspaper, they started to criticize back to the newspaper data, you cannot write the new government of Ansan city, you know, because you know, which is really, really new, as a government. So you newspapers, and then reporters shouldn't criticize on the new government in all sincerity. I think, at the time, this is the starting point of breaking up between the audience and the newspapers. Because you know, from that moment, so half of the newspaper choose to support our city and half of the newspaper chose to do more, like absolute journalism front, like it started in mid 2015, I guess. So, you know, but, you know, the ruling party and authencity its entity, it started to grow and international media to grow the reputation international media and an RC and to so she went to a lot to the, you know, she she traveled a lot as a leader of the ruling party at the time, but nobody expected the 2016 clearance operation of the military and 2016. So, after 2015 that before 2015 There were some arrests and seizures of the police, the drugs police, that you know, you you, you might you might you might have heard that, you know, like 10 Billions what medified means and Yaba word sees and is part of the country and you know, and a border with Bangladesh and Myanmar this kind of thing you can read on the newspapers before 2015 But after 2015 general election, that kind of news started to separate that started to be seen on the newspaper periodically, like more and more often. And so, you know, I started to look at the drugs and metaphor names seizures after 2015 general elections, so I I noticed that a lot of drugs and methamphetamines a trade it's across the border of golden triangle to Shan State. And to Yangon or some sometime it's a cross Mandalay, the Mandalay and then it goes to the Rakhine State and to the Bangladesh. So I noticed that kind of route by the drugs trafficker So in 2000 2016, I traced that metaphor domains, trading routes from Mandalay to entail to the border between Myanmar and Bangladesh. So I went there, like I even That took a bus with the you know, with I even rode a bus that which is which was I believe that carry metal pheromones. So I wrote with this but to Rakhine State. So, the total that's in $2 2016 I think it's on October. Yeah, October 10, no Ottawa, NY 802 or six. So I live in a city and then I took both from surgery to mono, where the latest frontier seat it says the township between the fence of the border there. So, you know, I met a lot of police majors and then a police captain is there who were always ready to seize an arrest the drug traffickers and on the border towns bought a town. So on October 8, I even met the police, police major by case the station chief and Molndal. So I met him at around evening. And then he even invited me when he and his foes is going to read a drug drug terrifica At around midnight. So I agreed to take along with with them, you know, when they are going to arrest this drug trafficker, but around I think midnight, to after midnight, 2am in the morning, like in mound or city, the electricity is just between like 6pm to 9pm That's all 333 hours, three hours in total and Mondo so you know, after 9pm At night, you know, there's no electricity, and then the next day, you will get electricity on 6pm at night. But if it did on October 9, and ninth of October, the the the electricity just you know, opened around 2am In the morning, you know, and everybody was on a lot that you know what happens, you know, this is really rare, awkward for the whole city. And I call like my sources around that, you know what's going on. And then I call the police major that's, you know, what's what's going on in the city. And then he told me that there was an attack by Muslims, he he had, you know, his ACL wars, they were attacked by the Muslims and, and police, military command and a western part of the township. And then but you know, we have curfews so in that city and Mongo, so we have curfews not to go outside after 12 Yeah, 12 12:12am and then morning, for 4am. So you cannot go outside. So we have to wait until 4am in the morning. So after 4am Me and my photograph went to a scene where, you know, nine policemen were beheaded, and half of them were beheaded. And then half of them were killed brutally on the police, military command and police bought a couple of these command in the western part of the mount or township there. So, you know, actually, me and my photograph was we were there to trace the drugs, trafficking stories, but you know, in the mornings, and a spectively that, you know, that stories just broke. And then, you know, as a as a reporter, as the journalists, we were so lucky that you know, we got a story. We just nobody got ever for them, you know, me and my photograph. We went there and we filmed everything, we interview everyone there almost everyone there on the ground. So at the time, I one policeman told me that those Muslims are Rs o ro injure solidarity organization, so that RSO was really active around our 1980s and after 1988 Like the that ruins our solidarity organization RSO was really active on the border between the MRA of Bangladesh. But you know, after 1990s Like there, there was no actual activities of Arzo and area, but in 2016, like, you know, from out of the blue, like RSO appears at the time, so no one's really have no idea. No one's idea which organizations attack at that police command and Mongol to me too. I mean, I didn't have any idea that at the time who's attack that police command that no idea. So when police you know secretly police told me that that group attack the police command is Rs Oh, and then I even put that name or so and my first article which is, which was I, I was writing I've written in on the ground, so I put the RSO name. But in the morning on October 10, like that, state newspapers, officially stated that the RSO flags and papers and clothes were found in some houses in Monroe Township. So but you know, nobody's nobody has a clear understanding of what's going on the ground. And then no reporters there, me and my photograph, we were the only one there. So we, you know, I receive a lot of phone calls from Indonesian and medias like CNN, Washington Post ages zero a lot, you know, and then they quoted me a lot at a time. And then, you know, I personally witnessed the beheaded body there, you know, some some, some bodies were even there. How can I say, they're their entities or satellite? You know, everything is everything went out from their body kind of thing. So I had to see it with my own eyes. Yeah, that, you know, that happened.

Host  1:07:14

So, so you're describing that you were kind of accidentally present at one of the most important Touchstone points of the entire conflict of the Rohingya, not just president, but actually, you filed exclusively filed a report about what you had witnessed and what you understood at the time as facts were developing, that would be an article that would be heard around the world, and then would would give rise to everything after that followed. So this suddenly this this accidental article that came out when you were actually there for another reason, this launched many things in progress after this, the the, obviously, this incident was, what was the first spark of what would go on with the greater Rohingya crisis, internationally. And for you, personally, as a journalist and your professional career, it put you at the center of starting to report on something that was becoming very, very big, not just in the country, but internationally and would go on to define Myanmar to this day. And you were, you were at the start of of this very first little spark that took off and seeing it for what it was and then how it developed. So can you carry the story on from that initial moment of reporting on the beheadings of the nine police officers, as the conflict develop further, and, and there was, there were continued events and incidences to report on and you became increasingly involved? Can you tell us what happened the following few years?

Mratt Kyaw Thu  1:08:54

Yeah, so so, you know, from that moment, a lot of things. You know, were going on, I didn't even catch up some of the events, actually. So from that day, October 9, you know, I brought like, many, many stories, even that, you know, one of the incidents and actually remember one thing, that reporter from like, he's kind of a correspondent for New York Times. So he called me he, you know, we knew each other, and then he called me on Autobahn October 10, that, you know, what's going on the ground and then he asked me that, you know, we, we knew each other, we know each other, and then if you could tell me, everything you see on the ground, and then I could understand what's going on. And then I told him that you know, please do not quote me as a as a source on the ground. And then you know, that New York Times reporters I agree on that. And then, you know, I told them everything, you know, the understand is that agreement that when the reporters to rappers are talking about the behind the scenes issues, you know, you cannot really coat it and then I, I clearly asked him not to code my name. That's one of the accidents. I remember in my entire entire entire career that that correspondent though, I think he ended up to me around three 3pm at the evening. So and then, you know, I fight too many stories at a day. And then in the morning, I received all my Facebook and Twitter direct message, and I received a lot of threats on my email that, you know, I'm, I'm just frying the country's reputation. And and I'm, I'm a break in the national security's boundaries, this kind of thing. You know, I had no idea what's going on. And then actually, the new time reporters quoted me everything, everything I said, on his story. So, yeah, so that happened. So and then, you know, I received even death threats at the time. So you know, because when I'm the only one reporters know, wars would come out. And as I said that, because I'm the only one there. But the New York Times run the story. The whole interview, I, I answered everything. That's kind of thing, you know, so most of the things I told that reporters are behind the same, you know, it cannot be published, you know, sometimes most of the time like sometimes we have that kind of stories, we cannot publish on the paper, but he published that. So after that, when I came back to Yangon from from Rakhine State we, me and my editor, Thomas Kane, he is known as the editor in chief of the frontier, Mr. Newspapers, magazine. So we sent an email to New York Times, Asia tax and Hong Kong, and other editorial decks and then I think they change it. After a week. They changed my name, they remove my name from front articles, that kind of thing. So this is one of the world's experience of my carrier. But in 2000, after after that Eben in 2017, June so so when I came back from from mando from the from Rakhine State, I've got a lot of soldiers on the ground like I've got a lot of phone numbers from Rohingya people there, I've got a lot of phone, phone numbers from police forces and the military too. So, the problem is a lot of things going on the ground, like between the villages like because, you know, they say it, the policemen who are petrol end and the crowd, they know the situation, real situations on the ground. And then they reported that what's going on the ground to the to the above labor, like some capital and labor and Major General levels and normal listen about that. So, both of my sources on the ground, they call me a night like around 9pm and 10pm, they call me that there will be a second attack on 2017 after 2016 first attack, and then I receive this kind of news tips from my sources on the ground. And then you know, I talked to some people like some politic, polity, political leaders and some governments stuffs that you know, there will be a second attack and 2017 or around an rainy season because in Rakhine there always be like in Rakhine if you fight in the rainy season that there will be several routes you can escape in Rakhine State like when you check the fight ends between our akan army and then Mr. militaries most of the fight ends were happened and rainy season and the rainy seasons. So you know, my sources told me in 2017, John, that you know, there will be there will be a second attack and the rainy season And they told me so. You know it first I didn't believe that. But after several calls and you know, several messages from my ground sources, and then, you know, I talked to my editor that we should run a story about the second attack, that there will be a second attack. I mean, if someone's talking about that, you know, that the Rohingya will attack the second time, they will attack no one's believe that no one would believe that. But my editors, likely he believed me and then tell we published a story that there will be a second attack by the Rohingya and, and the rainy season. And then, you know, I sent that letter to the state counselor's office I told, I told, like, almost every politicians like who are very close with me, I told them personally, and then I sent those that their news link to them that you know, please read that, you know, there will be a second attack. And then no one's listen it no one listen it. So they attack it. And then a lot of things going on, like Kofi Annan Commission's and then on, I think they did a press conference on August 24 24th. August, and then I even I was present at that press conference that I even asked a lot of questions to the Kofi Annan personally. And then I think, on August 25, the second attack happened I mean, please You know, someone someone can you imagine like, like, that kind of moment that you tell the whole you you tell the whole country that there will be a second attack? And then no one listen it and then it happened. And then this time is not a one police it's not a one police station, they attack three police ports, I don't know 30 Police ports, you can emulate that. So a lot of folders, a lot of police Baraka police were died and killed there. A lot. So on to so after that, you know, you know, I didn't say that, that kind of, I told you swords, you know, I couldn't say that. But in my feeling like, in my heart, like, you know, I couldn't even feed that. That kind of feeling. It's really, you know, awkward. It's really strange to feed that kind of moment that you told them you to everyone you publish your story and English and bommies to both like bilingual stories, but no more listen it

Host  1:17:51

why not? Why don't you think people listened?

Mratt Kyaw Thu  1:17:55

I think it's really strange for them to I think to believe that, you know, growing up people will attack the police outpost second time. Because you know, the first time and then a lot of international focus on the Rakhine State and then even a Kofi Annan Commission's, this kind of sense, you know, no one believe that. I think they are afraid to believe or it's really big to believe, maybe I have no idea. But you know, the story didn't end there. So I saw after that until 2017, August 26. I, I talked to my editor and then we and then me and my photograph, ah, you know, the photograph word days Allah, his name his days online. So he's like, my big brother's like a best friend. So, we were there. We were also together the first time and then the second time too. So we went there on August 20/26 2017. Again, but this time, the military's they're the they knew the they knew how to how to like manipulate how to control the media at the time, because you know, to get to mount mount or town, you have to you have to write it you have to write a PhD to get to sit away from Yangon. You have to go with your with airplane there and sit away and then when you arrive in situ you cannot go to Monroe directly you have to sleep a one night there. And then in the morning, you can take a ferry boat from set to a to put it on there so it's like a five or six hour drive by a ferryboat, and then when you arrived at the booty doll, you have to sleep another night to get to Monroe again. So it's a 16 No 15 or 14 kilometers from booty down to Monroe. So, but you know, me and my photograph arts and this time we are not, we were not alone. So we were with other reporters from China News, Asia, writers AFP, like almost every intimation of big intonation and media that they have BBC Two. I mean, some reporter from Guardians, I think, so they were there, too. So the we hire a car, and then it's around 30 reporters, like over 30 reporters at the time. And then we hired a car and then we went to a mando but we have to cross three border Karpeles checkpoints to get to Monroe. So at the first checkpoint, I think it's a five miles five miles four kilometers from booty doll. So is if the, like 1/3 of the whole road. So there was a one policy security checkpoint there. And then we were asked that, you know, who are you Where are you going? And we told the security that you know, we are journalists from Chinese Asia, CNN, a Jazeera you know, Guardian writers EFB and then you know, okay, you if you're a journalist, you cannot go there. So, every reporters there, you know, we were so disappointed at the time and then to some of the people even to try to give them like beta nets that's you know, in some kind of a why Petrolia to give them to to cross the two point there. Yeah. So, but you know, at the end to know the answer is clearly no, and then we had to come back from the tech point to put it on again but uh, wrong. So so most of the reporters they decided to go back to sit away from Buddha so it's a five hour drive but me I am another Luca to Luca journalist decided not to go back to surgery and then we discard ourselves so we took out a cover and then I changed my clothes like I normally when I was reporting from the ground I normally wear the pants like a trouser and jeans sometimes teams and we sneaker or we do like Austin Converse shoes like that. But at the time No, no, I can't do that. So I changed the traditional bommies loan G and then no we'd backpack with a traditional site site back and I choose the bidder nuts a lot and you know what I had to mix up my hands that look like okay another yeah another to look at unless they also you know, change their clothes but very like look like a very poor native and then we buy 2000 shirts what? peanuts and then three liters of petrolium because you know it's really easy to give them but truly and a beater nuts if you cross that border that three checkpoints it's a kind of accustomed for them. So most of the passengers and most of the drivers they normally do that. So we had to be local, you know? So that's why we pretended like a no local and then the first checkpoints so I'm a Rakhine ethnic So, but I'm not from Northern northern part, but you know, I can understand and I could speak some of the basic Rakhine language. So you know it the first checkpoints, you know, that security guy, she's, you know, the he didn't recognize me. That's why, you know, he asked me, you know, where are you going? Are we forgot our things and our houses and Mongo that's why you know, we go back to to take on things but, and then, okay, please give me a petroleum and then we have to give them one liter of petroleum to a security guy. So that's the first security a check points so and the second security. So it's really easy. It's getting easy because you know, if the first security two points, let them let us come in, so second is okay, so But I, we have to give that beta now it's a one pack of peanuts, and then the touch type. So it's really easy. So so the entrance of the mound or town is a we call it three miles checkpoints. So at the checkpoints there are that there was one UN office there, I think it's W FB Watford program officer. And then so you have to cross a one kilometer gap between the actual entrance of the town and then the checkpoints. So there were ones one of the biggest ruins are village villages there. So the name of the village is new to G. So if you ask someone from Rakhine, that, you know, have you heard about God, everyone knows that village, because it's a very big village and mono so we have to cross that village. So because, you know, I remember and 2016 a year ago that the whole situation, the whole environment, the whole scenario, like I even, which you know, I even notice the differences between which shops is open, and you know, and which wrote that kind of detail stuff, I noticed that so, from that time, every villages were banned for like, the gap between the three mile checkpoints to the entrance of the model. So, you know, I found with my phone, I found the, you know, from the, from the window, like, I got it all lined down on the end of that band, so, and then we enter to a model town, so there's nothing there was nothing on the streets, like even there's no dogs, street dogs on the streets. I mean, they in the center of model town, because like they're their biggest market in the center of the talk. But, you know, no one's there's no the whole town is like quiet. And, and so, you know, we decided me and other two local journalists we decided to go to the shelter because you know, a lot of Rakhine and Hindu people, they run from their village because you know, but before the attack on August 25, like a lot of Muslims and Rakhine and Hindu they live together. Like they live together and, and, and, and villages. And Nia Monroe. So after the attack on August 25, like many Rakhine and Hindus, they they you know, they are afraid of some Muslims, they're afraid of that, you know, sad like some rumors that Muslims are coming to come in to murder them, like at night if you if you are in Rakhine, or if you are if you are heading to the Muslims, okay, then that kind of room are separate across the city. That's why they leave their home they and then they take refuge at the Buddhist monastery there. So and then we are interviewed a lot of Buddhists and Rakhi by Buddhist Rakhi Buddhist people and Buddhist monastery and then I went to primary schools, there are a lot of Hindu Hindus are taking shadow and their primary schools, so I ended up doing a lot of them.  But when I me and my other local journalists, we came out of the refugee camps. So one local Rakhi I meant approaches and an ask questions that, you know, who I you know, why are you in town? This town is our our town, you know, no strangers from all sides that this is our top two. He's the Rakhine Buddhists and he's kind of a drunk. But, you know, in my instant I know that he's Not he's looked like a drunk man. But he's not drunk, but he's kind of, he's high. I mean, he's hide with some kind of metaphor means or Yaba some kind of drugs, you know, I can see that. So we saw me and other two luchar journalists we, we avoided, not to confront with him. But normally, like, if someone approaches that, you know, where are you? Where are you from? Who are you? And we always ready to answer us, you know, you know, we're journalists. Yeah, we are journalists. And we're from Yangon. And you know, we're doing interviews here, but at the time, we avoided not a conference, because this is really tense. And then if someone's talking on the streets, is this the environment is like, every everyone's hearing what I'm saying this kind of thing, because, you know, the whole environment is really quiet. It's really scary. So that meant access questions. And then we say, We're journalists, and then we're studying to go back to the monastery. So we are finished, and then he follow us with his model, motorbike, and then he always showed it to the environment that you cannot be here. You shouldn't be here, this is our town, this is our, our, our city, this is our territory, you cannot be here, please go back where you came from? And then we say, Yeah, you know, we are leaving, we are leaving. And then, you know, we noticed that the situation is not really a good and then so we had to ask for help from someone who's like respectable person from the political party or something like that. So we went back to a Buddhist monastery, where we interview a lot of refugees, Polish refugees, Iraqi refugees there. And then we met. Fortunately, we met Rakhi our condition at parties MP Member of Parliament from our conditioning party. So we knew each other, and then we asked that member of parliament that you know, hello, anchor, you know, we are in trouble that guy, his followers, and then he asked a lot of dangerous questions that you know, you can be here you can be You shouldn't be here. And then that Member of Parliament told that drunk guy height guy, that you know, okay, please come down, you know, you cannot shout it at the reporters who are doing their job. And that guy, you know, he he did, he was a can down. And then he started to organize other people that please look around, please come around here. And then here's the strangers from the outside, they are not the native for this camera here. And then some other drunk men and some other people just started to organize there. And then that drunk guy acts as the, to show our name cards, and other other stuffs like us. So the two local reporters show their name cards that, you know, one front end another one from Democratic vice Obama. And then I actually made a joke there. Because, you know, I gave them my notebook, not my name tag. And he said, No, no, it's a notebook, not your name, name tag. You know, I said, No, no, no, I forgot that. And booted off. And that is it. Yeah. Okay. So after that, the Member of Parliament started to shout at him that, you know, you shouldn't do that. They are reporters, if you say something, but you know, they were they were write it in their newspapers, and then did that guy know, you know, Fargo, you know, I don't really care it, you know, and then once we were really lucky that one, elder elder woman, he, she approached us, she's like, around 16 or 17, he approached us and then told us very, she was bought us that, you know, please go please run, this guy's really dangerous. And then we call it our things and then we literally run from that monasteries. And at that guy, shoulder to the environment that, you know, come around, you know, look out, come around, please come out to the streets. You know, this guy should be Cade, these guys should be key. So we have to run out, you know, from that monitor, it's, you know, we had no idea where, where, where we go, go going, you know, where are we moving? Where are we headed? We had no ideas. But you know, at the time, we have to decide something we ought to know caribou has it, please, please do something, please sit down at the time. So because, you know, the mob followers at its at that moment, so the mob shouted at the environment come out. And you know, these guys should be carried. These guys should should can be here shouldn't be here. So that voice you know achived oh and the empty street empty road. So we have to run from that that monasteries and then that more followers and then so we decided to go to the head office of the air conditioner parties so this is the only place that we should we should go because you know there's no no other areas that the police stations or close of the townships and municipalities are closed every every every word is closed. So the only place we should go is to go to the Arakan National party Office. And then there we met. Because, you know, we thought that if someone is influential in the politics, you know, if she if he or she says something to the mob, and they were they will be come down. We thought that. So at the at the office, you know, we had one guy, I don't know who is he? So he said that okay, no worries, we will hire a car for you. And then actually from Mondo to booted off, it's like so 15 kilometers, so we have to be around for like five $50 dollars or no $20 or sometimes $15 That's all but at the time, that guy and the air conditioner party he charges like 15 $50 so it's it's like a double trouble than the normal price. But you know, we had no choice and then you know, he hired a car with that $50 And then we have to take that burn and then we we run with that band from from Monroe, and then the whole village between the whole Muslim villages between the entrance of the Moto town and the checkpoints or Banda, so I find everything and even some of the road assemble the road is the the platform's of the roads are whole the by the like expose the devices there a lot and then what I saw is many local Rakhine residents happen the military there because you know, when the military burned the ruins or houses and and the village like the local residents or happened them to to grab some kind of solar power niching in some kind of generators, because you know, there are so many worthy Muslims houses in that neighborhood. So, when the the military's like, destroyed the Muslim houses, so the locals are trying to help them to carry this kind of properties from the Muslim houses, I saw that. But at the time, I I cannot write that kind of information on my on my article. So if that the if it's published on the on the on my magazine, I will be arrested for sure. So I talked to my Yeah, I talk to my editors, and I talk to my friends that you know, should I I put that kind of information in articles, you know, everyone say no, it's it's really dangerous. It's really dangerous, because, you know, the military will sue you for sure. And then the military will attack your family for sure. And because you know, my family is in Rakhine State. Sure. Yeah. So yeah.

Host  1:39:37

Yeah. I want to ask a question about reclined specifically in the the authorities there. You're you're from Rakhine State. You've reported extensively on the growing conflict in Rakhine with the Rohingya and the issues surrounding that and you reference in that harrowing story in which mob is literally chasing you and that's an incredible piece. Behind the Scenes understanding for any western half of what you how you had to put yourself in harm's way to simply report on a story, you reference how you you sought the help of the authorities, the political party, the local governance that's there. And I just want to fast forward five, six years down the line to present day and looking at trying to understand the what's had the motivations and the actions in Rakhine state since the coup there's been some reporting from different angles there's it's been reported that the CVM movement has never really taken off in Rakhine that they're they're feeling among Rakhine Buddhists that they there's some hesitation and to what degree they want to join the democratic movement resisting the coup with feeling that they were not supported by the margin majority before so they don't know how much they want to put themselves on a limb and and join the wider movement. There's also been there's been quite a bit of attention about a the aircon army and specifically some of the comments and the direction led by the one of the commanders and spokesperson to me on nine who has articulated the position not only VA but also Rakhine State in general and DA is considered I believe one of the greater fighting forces even rivaling the tama da of the different ethnic militias and militaries forces that are there. And so looking at post coup, of course, understanding the history before that, both in terms of your lived experience being a member of the Rakhine community and the reporting that you did many years prior leading up to this point. What's your understanding of what's going on in Rakhine State now of their their motivations of what they're working towards of their, of their, their their feelings since the coup and what they the actions that they're taking and what they're working towards what? How can you update us about the situation in Rakhine since the coup?

Mratt Kyaw Thu  1:42:13

So what's right now all the rakhi people in Rakhine state what they're seeing is we had enough it's enough for us because you know, after the coop like and K and you and current state and a K and a kitchen and so they're fighting against the military's after the people's defense forces in March after around last year in April so they can use to fight aka stay fight today. But you know, everyone's talking about Rakhine that are Konami. Why Why? Why did it in fight against the military? That question so all the people in Rakhine State said that? No, it's enough for us. You know, we had like five years of fighting like a very intense fight in Rakhine state, from 2015 to 2020 2021. So it's, it's enough for them that that's what they're seeing on social media, and then on the ground, too. So when someone asks that, you know, why are you involved? Or why aren't you involved and that revolutions? And so they say, the same thing? Yeah. Well, it's enough for us. But the thing is, the Oregon army is known an upper hand he the the upper hand of the national unity government, or an alliance with the northern Northern Alliance. relationship, and then, you know, because, you know, if, like some people and then Django and they even said that, some scholars said that if Rakhi doesn't want to be involved, and in this revolution, it's fair enough for them, so nobody can believe them. Because, you know, because at the rate of is when our economy is fighting against the military before the coup. So even to Austin Suchi and other ruling parties members, and then even the well known celebrities on Facebook, they even art the military to any late the arc an army on the ground, so some influencers and some pro or National League for Democracy. Influencers said that if Please, play the nation Adam and record if someone cannot sing alone the nation to attend Please kill them this kind of online hate speech he posted on social media in a heated a lot of support or at a time that around 2018 and 19. So, you know, a lot of Rakhine people are they, they think that it's it's enough for them to not to fight against the military anymore at the time. But I think our army has another invention and mentioned this time because, you know, they are like, not significantly involved in the revolution, but some of their soldiers are state fighting in the Northern Alliance with a key IA and the tnla. And the north and then some of the American Army soldiers are fighting against the military and current state to what you know, some of the some of the some of the things they cannot all say, on the press release. And you know, it's like, if as I said before, if the Arakan army doesn't want to is, if the origami says that we don't want to fight in this revolution, no one can believe that. So it's their situation because you know, no one support them when they are fighting the military before the coup. So that's that's what they're thinking, I think.

Host  1:46:27

Right. So thanks for that update that is looking at the situation and the perspective from Rakhine State and definitely be interested to see how that plays out. I also wonder if you know much about or have any commentary about the Japanese envoy from the Nippon Foundation, Yohei Sasakawa. That's been involved in negotiations, especially in Rakhine State with a and the Ramadan. I think there's been a bit of controversy or just questioning about what exactly his role is, what his influences what his motivations are, what thoughts do you have about him? And actually, I guess before the thoughts of me, our listeners might not exactly know who he is or what role he's played, maybe you can update a bit about what, what he's done and then your thoughts on it.

Mratt Kyaw Thu  1:47:16

So, Japan, Japanese comments as always, they pretended to plead as a peacemaker, and every occasions like the like, like it depends Nippon Foundation. They made a lot of charities activities in Rakhine state that the whole country actually, like if, like, you can see the activities of the USAID and other US related organizations are doing a lot of works on the ground, but you cannot actually see what's the Nippon foundations to date and, and Korean and other ethnic area, you can find it because they are really low, low profile. And in all sincerity time, and all the saints error, and then at the time too, so they're really low profile. And then they are really close within your military too. So when because, you know, the end the case with the Northern Alliance or Oregon army or Korean, whatever it is, like if the if the Chinese union government involved and that peace talk like Northern Alliance or other bamar Mater at open yours will be very different, that you know, and then at that point that the other ethnic organizations also think that, you know, they, they always put the Chinese, Chinese and why for the for the peace negotiation as another kind of behind the cutting eye negotiations. So they never put the Chinese representatives they never acknowledge the Chinese representatives peace making discussions. On the Record. You know, we are we all we always heard that Chinese representatives met with the Northern Alliance and pan sang wah wah state and Chinese representative media, Nima, military representatives and Hmong decode and trigger area, but no one's ever released a statement about that. But when if the Japanese inborn or Japanese representatives midweight ethnic organizations, they always make a press release because you know, and that's I think that's a played on The Myanmar papers opening because you know, most of the always memo people you know, people always think that Chinese government control the ethnic armed forces but at the neck Amphoe was never acknowledged that and then they are afraid, I think afraid to acknowledge that they are under the control of Chinese government, ethnic organizations, they never acknowledge it. Acknowledge the Chinese involvement on the records. That's why I think the military also are willing to they're willing to use they're willing to talk to the UN organizations with the Japanese envoy or Sasakawa this time because you know, when military the military or the ethnic groups said that the peacemaker is from Japan so and in that memo people say that okay, it's you know, some guy from Japan it's okay, but someone from China will be involved and in a peace negotiation, they will be really outrageous. I think Japanese and wise the plate a lot and then that thinner than Mr. Myanmar people's opinions on the Chinese and Japanese is it's really different. So you know, when the Sasakawa went to Rakhine State like I think only some of the local newspapers in Rakhine State wrote about that you know not so many mainstream media's mentioned that you know, Japanese Peace negotiator arrived in Rakhine I think they they didn't highlight that kind of thing because most of the major two people in Myanmar they think that dependency is not too many as Tippin is, you know, it's not the tiniest this kind of thing. I think, you know, in the, our economy today, they, they, they would make they always make a press release and Chinese and English and, and Bobby's, but, you know, they, they never acknowledged that that you know, they are under the control of the Chinese government, you know, officially and then they never, you know, mentioned that kind of Chinese term in the press release this really sensitive for Rakhine people and the majority people are in Yangon and Mandalay two. I think that's that's why they avoid this kind of thing. So but you know, Japanese employ Yeah, it's okay for that. Yeah.

Host  1:52:58

Right. So I'm wondering about with the Rakhine situation you you've been speaking about this quite objectively as a reporter and looking at the different motivations and angles of the different parties and I wonder if you can have a subjective answer being a being from Rakhine state a member of the Rakhine community and yet also a Myanmar citizen who is concerned about the military takeover and wanting to see the democratic movement succeed in where do you lie on this do you when when you allow yourself to think subjectively about your whole your your hopes of the greater democracy movement as well as the situation in Rakhine and their their own safety and and autonomy to whatever degree that means? What do you have any subjective thoughts or or hopes about how things might turn out or how things could turn out?

Mratt Kyaw Thu  1:53:57

So this questions I've been always asked like too many years ago as well so it's still a audit to draw a conclusion to tie dye because you know, the rhino there's one one thought that you know, Rakhi the American army is considering to be separated from the mainland or they are hoping to get a configuration or the like a special so special zone was I'm lighter because you know what state like it's specials, autonomic zones and and Mongla to the special autonomic zones, but I think I when I ended up you told me a night in 2019 I asked him, like, on the record that what go oh, you know it, you know, I MB of you know, what state and then he answered that you know, yet we dreamed about we dreamed Rakhine State as another kind of war state and and you know, not less than one state but you know it's a same level with what state he said it to but right now the current situation in Rakhine State is so Rakhine our army always they are proud to show the photos that you know the the the the state schools and Rakhine state they did the students in the state schools in Rakhine state they always singing the rakhi are can armies ate them and in the state schools so there there are economies pro or con armies influencers and the people on the social medias they always produce a post this kind of that kind of photos on the social media, but actually on the grown the people, the Rakhine people are in the dilemma that, you know, they have to pay different taxes. Like, you know, they have to pay tax to the American army at the same time they have to pay tax to the military government right now. So it's it's like, you know, which one is the true administrators, so they don't know it, they have no idea, but the process is still ongoing. So on the other hand, like when the economy said that we are Cuba and like 1/3 of the Rakhine state, if the are saying, like that kind of thing. They never said it on the record, but like some of the pro American army followers said that, you know, in the northern part of the Rakhine State our economy, like occupy some of the village villages, and then some cities there, but you know, honestly, actually, they cannot handle they cannot control the Chinese Special Economic Zones there, they cannot control the shakers there. They cannot control the trade tax. They're like a month ago, the American Army announced that to make a business with the Bangladesh government. So that's kind of thing they're started to, they started to offer to the damage right now, but the no official response from the Bangladesh, anti anti now. So I think our Konami is winning the better on the paper right now. But I truly like on the ground, they're just started to control the administration's they just started because, you know, before the coop there, they they given trainings to the educated Rakhine people, for the public administrations there. But they just started to practice that kind of their own Arab ministry straight of bodies there, but they just started. But it's not the it's not really easy as well for easy to assert to give the autonomic area to the Rakhine our Konami from from the military, because in the end a mindset of the military, I think they will think that, you know, they already gave was state and mall law, and then, you know, look at look at it right now, you know, no one can even touch the Mona autonomous area and the wah state. And then that's kind of a shame for the military all the time, all the time. And then, you know, always you know, people are making joke about the last date that you know, there's one picture of the head of the wall state army, online on the hospital bed and then the state. Right now, the dictator may online, you know, spawn in the suit to the leader of the wall states. So we always make a joke with that photo that at the military. They are always afraid of the war, Army, war state army. So, you know, they're really ashamed of that. And then I think the new Momiji will never I think they would afraid will be afraid to give another part of the country to our Konami animal. I think they will give like maybe two or three townships in the northern part of the state to our economy to be, you know, managed by the economy, but they will never I am open yet. You know, they will be reluctant to give another autonomous area to the new new army? I don't think so. I don't think so. There will be a more more negotiation. Yeah.

Host  2:00:46

Right. Right. So the last question I want to ask you is zooming out a little bit and looking at the situation of journalism at this time, and looking at the the needs and challenges and ambitions of reporting, right now with what's been going on since the coup. As bad as things are, and as terrible as the incidents, the ongoing incidents continue to be, it is dangerous and challenging to be able to accurately and safely report on it get information out. The the military often is taking these atrocious actions, and then after the actions, they're trying to make sure no one is around to be able to report on them and punish those attempting to do so. So as you look overall at the state of journalism right now, in trying to report on what's been going on in Myanmar since the coup, what what are you seeing what are your hopes? What are your concerns? What would you like to see? What do you think the challenges are? What needs are there? How would you characterize the the state of journalism right now since the coup?

Mratt Kyaw Thu  2:01:51

So it's a it's a chaos right now. So it's already, like the whole journalism scheme, but it's already destroyed. So what I'm really sad at that moment movement is, you know, the mainstream, like most of the mainstream media's, they don't follow the standard journalism rules anymore. So that's happening right now. So some prominent and reputable never respectful of journalists, try to, like calm the situation down in the journalism industry, because, you know, like some of the mainstream media has given more once, then the needs to the audience, because you know, right now, what the kind of news that please to the audience is, kind of, you know, the PDF kids 20 military soldiers, and as a guy or 30. military trucks were bombed by the spoted device by the ups and current, this kind of news people want to hear. So, and then the problem is, the reporters are not on the ground, reporters cannot see what's happening on the ground. So most of the mainstream media, they have to rely on the sources, the reinen sources are the PDF groups. So, so all the mainstream media's writings attributing the source of the PDF, so we have to be very careful that you know, all the time it's very basic that if something happened, and some area if something happened between two organizations, but whatever the organization's, we have to win some organization when one of those two organizations told that that happened in that area. So we have to ask another opposite organization that it is this is really happened, that's the basic rule. But right now, everything's on the mainstream media's are by one sided news, that is some organization said that and then it's, you know, people are happy about that, if one organization said, so we have no fat check. So we have no fat check ins mechanisms animal so and then, you know, everyone's happy about that. So, so, you know, one of my journalist friends and making make even a joke joke joke about that, you know, we have to solve the people. So that so, you know, if people are happy about that, and so, that's kind of things is happening. So, you know, I personally, I wrote a lot fedtech stories likes, so it's like up the, you know, when someone tells that when someone talked to people that, you know, that's not true, you know, you cannot kill 30 soldiers at one time with two bombs or three bones if not even an RPG. So if you want to, like in the in the better fee if you alone to RPG to a truck, like I can kill like maybe sometimes it's a five or six soldiers in the truck, but right now it's when some some organization said that on the ground, they can even destroy the tank with an RPG. So that's useless. That's point that's, but you know, people believe that. So, you know, it's it's a, it's a kind of a disaster for the journalism. So but people believe that kind of news. So you know, we have to, and then is there's no way to talk each other in the journalism industry to because you know, some of the, it's really polarized situations and Nima and also right now, most of the media organizations are in Chiang Mai, Thailand mess org, and some of them are in another country. So you know, all media is, like, you know, an very big basically. So if you're writing a short news, like, we always, you know, have to read like maybe five or six paragraphs, sometimes the breaking news, one or two paragraphs, that's all, but right now, an all may like almost 90% of the mainstream media's and all news, they only write maybe three, three progress, that's all. And people accept that, okay, three, or four paragraphs, or whatever it is, like, but your news have to be the title that, you know, PDF, or the PDF kills the military dictators, soldiers, that's all. So, you know, I think it's been a year right now it's been over a year for from last year, February. So I take for the whole journalism industry, I think all the, you know, we have to control and we have to educate ourselves, like, we have to talk more on awareness of how the people are, should read that needs story. Because you know, and then if the, if the media publish a lot of like, one stories, like people gets more illusion, that, you know, like, you know, I've been receiving messages from my sources, and from my friends and families that the revolution is going to finish very soon, they believe that. So, you know, I had to explain what kind of revolutions are we live in, and what kind of our killings and murdering or bombings, violence we are living in we, I have to personally explain them that, you know, the revolution, or the killing is not going to be finished very soon. So it will take time, maybe one or two years, maybe more than two years. But what the people on the ground believe that is, the revolution is gonna be finished maybe in two or three months. So that's what that's what they believe, because, you know, all the time they're read a news, like, soldiers were killed by PDF, and you know, 30 soldiers, 50 soldiers, this kind of news they've been reading. So that kind of scheme, you know, makes them believe that the revolution is going to be finished very soon. So so, you know, it's a sad story. It's really sad story to tell. But you know, because the media have failed to educate the people. What's really happened, I think, maybe next six months, or maybe next a year. One year, I think all the media will be going back to Nomis. Standard situation will be writing news and articles and standard rules, I hope.

Host  2:09:50

Yeah, thank you. That's a somber note to end on. And I think it definitely calls attention to the role of civil society and to the As we tie, it's kind of a also a fitting end and looking at how you began the interview and looking at the challenges of journalism before the transition and the golden years, which were, we're still not not not completely ideal in terms of the, the combination of journalism with either activism or, or political goals or whatnot. But now back to a situation where it's just struggling with basic facts. And of course, the conditions are so so challenging there and wish to report and also touching upon this idea of false hope, you know, that from the very beginning, literally the first days of the coup there was there, there's been these kinds of false hopes either in fake news or in false optimism, that of various ug leaders that the promise this or that. And so that is also an ongoing challenge that has to be reckoned with. But I think, I think it's good, it's very important to be identifying and talking about what these issues are, even when they are somber and distressing, we need to be able to speak about them and in English to the foreign and diaspora community and Burmese and ethnic languages to those in the country and to continue this conversation on and to, to, to, to be honest and direct about now, now is very much the time to to confront these issues and speak about them openly. With an attempt to try to understanding that better comprehension of what it is we're talking about can lead can lead to more honest and better possible solutions. So I hope that this is the first step to that. But in any case, I really thank you for your time for taking the time to explain these things in so much detail. And the firsthand access that you have to these events, I think is very educational for for me and for many listeners. So thanks for that.

Mratt Kyaw Thu  2:11:56

Thank you. Thank you, I think, you know, for the last one, I think people have been learn a lot from the revolution, I believed because, you know, the first days, first days of the coop, like February, like around March, like people believe that the UN peacekeeping force a comment to rescue Myanmar people and that UN pit like a US drone are coming to kill the May online, like in March, like people really believe that kind of news. Like, you know, I, I couldn't even I don't want to check my Facebook memories this time. Because you know, all the news are, it's that kind of fake news. And then they're respectful persons. They really believe that kind of knew. But that has been over a year right now. And then people learned a lot, I think, learned a lot. So I think that's kind of lessons and lesson learned. will be kind of something different in the future for my country and for my own people. I hope

Host  2:13:17

many of you know that in addition to running the Insight Myanmar podcast platform, we also formed a nonprofit that are Burma to respond to the terror the Burmese military has been inflicting on the country and its people. We encourage listeners to check out our blog, see the work that better Burma has been carrying out, along with the upcoming projects that we're hoping to support. Right now, as I'm sure you all know, and today's interview only reinforced, the ongoing need is overwhelming. A donation of any amount goes directly towards those vulnerable communities who need it most. And it will be so greatly appreciated. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution, any form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movements EDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by our nonprofit mission that or Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this person Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's BETTRBUR ma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either the Insight Myanmar better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.