Transcript: Episode #98: Liberation At All Costs
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Linn Thant, which appeared on April 7, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:01
militar de thank you for joining us for the next hour or two in this episode of insight Myanmar podcast. In an age of nearly limitless content, we appreciate that you're choosing to take valuable time out of your day to learn more about what is happening in Myanmar. It is vital for this story to continue to be heard by people around the world. And that starts right now with you. Ma Ma a good day I'm really honored for this episode of insight Myanmar podcast to be joined by Mr. Lynn dent. We have been trying to meet for about a year to get this interview. And we he has so many duties now. And he's such a busy and important person at the moment for the revolution that it took about a year to match our schedules up. And I'm just so honored that I know how busy you are and how much you're doing. And just thank you so much for taking this time out of your day to sit back and talk with us for an hour or two.
Linn Thant 02:11
Thank you too, as well.
Host 02:15
Yeah, so you have led a very full life. There is a lot to cover. But let's start at the beginning. I understand that you're from Meiktila, which is in the middle of the country. Why don't you pick up from there?
Linn Thant 02:28
Yes, I was born in Matey law in the center of Burma. I grew up in the you know, the country, you know, destroyed by civil war and military rule. And my grandfather, you know, British, he thought about the Christian God show and also my further talks, you know, me the politics. Already at the age of 16, I studied civil engineering at the University. And at the same time, though, the students of the same age during the nation or you know, protest, in 1988, I become of the leaders of the students organizations in my region. But after the military coup in 1988, I was hiding in somewhere. And then I was arrested and imprisoned and tortured at the military intelligence. And how the same as to death. I felt at the time, I didn't have to morrow I did. I lost my hopes. I love my tomorrow. I lost my future. But I never gave up when I was in the sell room. It's called the death row. So when I was in prison, I did the meditations every day, at least eight hours or 10 hours, sometimes I did the meditation over the you know, 12 or 20. So many times, the first you know, the three years of the my prison life in the death room. All the time, I did the meditation and I was reading some, you know, settled papers. And also I was always trying to try to be occupied. So that is my prison life that started with a very terrible situation. I was tortured a lot mentally and physically. After I was released from prison at the end of the 2008 I stayed in prison nearly two decades. I look out you know, the wall and the new environment. It was amazing. Nothing has changed. I found out Bose the prices, you know, it went up a lot. When I was arrested, the one of the teacup it just caused, it's only one more charge. After I was released from prison, I found out that one of the teacup it cost over 300 EMR jobs. So I felt so after the my prison man, farmer, nothing changed. The tool, the, you know, the it's changed a lot, but nothing changed. And I tried to set up the network for the our revolutions. It should be second Rome. That's all I you know, I told her in Myanmar of many CDs, I tried to go to the old context and making the network. But I was in danger again. I was afraid to be arrested again, because I didn't want to stay in prison for many years. That's why I fled from Burma. And I arrived in October my border. And I was say, English teacher, volunteer teaching for the refugees and the American work workers. Then I joined the ARD, media groups, and I became the journalist I was covering about the bombers, politics, economics, and other Asian countries. I stayed in Chiang Mai tiling as the LD report for over four or five years. In 2014, it was militarycupid timing for me that I was difficult to extend my visa. That's why, you know, I tried to reach back to Czech Republic back in 2015, I moved back to Prague, because in 2011, I was granted as the sale apprentice sale, I'm in Czech Republic because of the former president Sahaba. Then I did it studying with the sa English teacher and the meditation instructors, and also journalists. I wrote many articles about human rights, democracy, freedom. And also, I share my experience to the Czech society and other European countries. I'm I did many of the, you know, the cooperation with the Czech government to promote the two countries trade and economics and the politics. So I was your very, very convenient during last six years. But unfortunately 2021 I remember that, say around and have the January, I go to many informations from Myanmar, Burma, it seems that, you know, the military coup, we happens in a few days. That's why I tried to audit some of my colleagues. So be careful that it can be happening. And then so we try to communicate each other and discuss about the what we'll do, how to do, how to proceed the when it can be, you know, happened. Unfortunately, on the first of February 2021, as we expect a military coup, you know, it means that you know, try to attend to good, what's happened in Myanmar. That's it. This is my you know, very briefly, my life.
Host 09:20
And thanks for sharing this. And I think just in these five minutes, what you describe of your life is so rich and full that I think listeners probably have some kind of grasp of the also the interest and the curiosity that I had and wanting to explore these different parts of your life that you've passed through to better understand the situation that we all find ourselves now in 2022 with the coup. So going back to the initial start of the story, you reference how you took part in the 1988 demonstrations and because of that you were imprisoned, tortured, sentenced to death in a solitary confinement for two decades, this is a pretty severe sentence that you had to undergo, what was it that you were doing in 1988? That the military considered such a danger that they came down this heavy handed on you when they apprehended you?
Linn Thant 10:23
Yes, this is a very good question. So for me, so in 1988, involved in the, you know, the unwanted trade revolutions as the, you know, the student activists, and then you know, I was very, you know, very afraid to fight against the, the PSP party at first. But, so, during the, you know, demonstrations, I remember the in March, I found out, you know, the, some of your friends, they will show dead on the streets. And then, you know, the our students, university students try to produce again and again, in March affairs and much movement, and also June and July and so, our movements, you know, the speed of movement, and more. And then finally, so, we set up the, you know, the TETRA eight revolutions, we call for the try revolution, at the time. So, we travel, you know, the, across the country to get the get in touch with the other, you know, it's like groups, many cities, many villages. So, we try to, you know, express our concern about the our future country, so, it is dangerous situations of your country. So, especially, we focus on the, our, the military, you know, dictatorship and also authoritarian. So, this is the dangerous for our future in our next generations. So, I did a lot of, you know, the speeches around, you know, across the country, and I was one of the jackets, and then you know, and the another thing you see in during the, you know, 18 Revolutions I did see a lot of, you know, the, the politic, you, you know, the statements. And also, I joined the, after the military coup, I joined the, you know, one of the, the armed groups, it is called the older student immigrated front. So, I believe that, you know, in the past, so we can solve the situations politically, but, you know, in 1998, I decided to join the, you know, our students army, I became the one of the special missions commander, and then I was ordered to do such mission, then I was in Rangoon. And for that mission, I was arrested.
Host 13:06
I understand, are you able to share what that mission was in Rangoon that you were arrested for?
Linn Thant 13:13
So that mission is, you know, so right now, so I tried to assassinate the, the Secretary, one of the Mr. Mr. Kenyan, the former general, the, of the military intelligence officers, but I failed to assassinate him. And then I was arrested.
Host 13:35
Aarthi so then you were arrested in 1988, after this failed assassination. And in prison, you were tortured and sentenced to death. As far as you're comfortable and sharing about your past prison experience, I know, this, this, this is this can be very triggering. And there's, there's certainly much trauma from that, that I don't want to trigger or bring up. But as far as you're comfortable sharing about those about your incarceration and later years in prison,
Linn Thant 14:09
the time the prison is, you know, the future 3d, you know, I get a lot of ill treatments and told you, you know, right now, you know, I don't have the teeth, I have a few a few teeth. I lost the many teeth. And also, I was, you know, one of the my, you know, colon bone is broken, one of the, you know, my leg was broken as well. I thought every day, you know, I didn't see the sun in the moon for you know, several months, you know, and I was pittances every weeks. And also, you know, when I was involved, and to put it the other political prisoner, I was, you know, beaten and also tortured. And I was in another confinement and it is called, you know, Our call it you know, the military top training, you know, the compound, it was a very isolated, insane prison. I was there in several time, I remember that, you know, I got a lot of, you know, PT and torches when I was in prison as well. But I never give up. I never gave up I tried all the time in educates the into to be occupied and smarter. So one of the radio the uses, and I go to the informations around the world, what's happened was what was happening in the Myanmar and also around the war. So I got, you know, the many informations through the radio, I smuggled it, that radio was captured by interest found by G authority in 1995. I remember that cases are one of the funeral memories is, and, and 9098 9090. Before the you know, I remember that, you know, after the election one year lesson, after the you know, lesson they should, at least for democracy won't be election, you know, across the country, and the military council city were absent to handover the power to the winner party. So at the time, we in the our presence, we started to protest against the the absence of the military council to respect the votes of the people, our 1990 election results, then I was taught at that time that many hundreds of the our political prisoners were tortured, beaten, see some, some of my my colleagues is also you know, very seriously endure. Me too. And the in 1997, I was moved to the another prison, but it is called the prison.
Host 17:02
You know, I've spoken to hundreds of guests on this podcast platform. And we've had and has spoken to many that have gone through some pretty terrible traumatic incidences. But the just the short description you've already laid out here, I don't I have not personally spoken to anyone yet on this platform, who has had to endure the deprivation and the darkness, literal as well as metaphorical that that you've just laid out already. The being tortured, bones broken teeth shattered in solitary confinement, not seeing the sun or moon for four months on end, being sentenced to death and having that hanging over your head, I can't even begin to imagine on a human level, what that feels like and what and how one would even begin to respond to it and hearing what you've said here, and also our previous conversations, your description that you you just didn't give up. There was a spirit inside you that just kept trying to find a way on that kept trying to find hope and optimism. And I think what you're talking about here, it's a a feature of the human heart and the human spirit that actually goes beyond culture and time and place. It's connected to some of the horrors we hear the Holocaust and some of the Jews that were able to find something within them to get through unspeakable conditions that humanity has never known. And as far as you're able to what allowed you to respond the way you did, I don't know. I don't think most of our audience could imagine. I certainly can't, how one would begin to respond if they were in that situation of such pain and and emotional terror and actual physical terror and looming death and yet still respond with some kind of optimism and and and trying to do something and trying to be active, what can you say about where that spirit came from in you how were you able to harness that kind of spirit when faced in those kinds of conditions.
Linn Thant 19:16
Honestly, you know, it is taught by the Buddha. So, I could see a lot of the you know, the lessons from Buddha. Buddha is, you know, my great teacher. So whenever I face the difficulties, I have to face it. I have to accept it. I have to respond, you know, peacefully. So that's why I was bear on this kind of, you know, difficulties and be torture imaging that I will tell you the one of the example, my experience when I was in prison, the death row. So I was myself rule was, you know, covered by the some plates. It is, you know, the made by the sink. And just only you know, the one inch hole, I just see through the hole if I almani a kid's up, you know, I like it, it's around the, you know, the 4am and started to you know, be home Mr. Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and the I explored the, you know, the baton Putana. And then, you know, I was beaten, if I do meditation, I was beaten. If I do this something, you know, exercise, why are you doing like that. So the PPP, PPP, the prison guards, and the, even the, you know, it's the food or the very terrible situations at the time. And the soup, I share with, you know, some of the food is on my, you know, social media network. Even the big or the dogs, they don't eat us kind of the foods, but we, we ate it, we didn't have the any, you know, options, we have one of the soups, you know, we found that some of the, you know, the women, you know, the beds, we found it, but we have in some, you know, Rice's with the sand stone, small stones, that the quality of the air rises and falls quality for the prisoner. So, we ate it, but we try to survive. That is, you know, the, one of the biggest, you know, ambitions when I was in prison
Host 21:55
so, you talk about your faith in the Buddhist teachings as being something that allowed you to carry through some kind of light and hope and even the darkest of situations, may I know where that came from where you raised a Buddhist in your family, had you done meditation or been a monk before your incarceration or was this kind of faith and meditation practice something new that came in response to the conditions you found yourself in?
Linn Thant 22:26
Yes, this you know, very interesting, you know, for my life because my father sides into secretions, community, Christians culture, my grandpa British, it's he is a very devoted devoted Baptist Christian. My mom's side is you know, Buddhism, Buddhist, the Buddhist and my father became the abs, he was free thinker, and he taught me to be a free thinker. But my father, he was very clever, he taught me that you know, the study every religions, try to find out who you are in what you are, my father told me that that is that is one of the biggest, you know, the lessons from my father, I studied integration, I studied the Christian, I studied Islam, and I studied the, you know, the, you know, some you know, religions, but I find out, you know, the tribe tried to study it, and then but, you know, when I was around the, you know, 1617 years old, I was in the, you know, Macoutes for over one year, and because, you know, I try to know, what is the Buddhism, indeed, as monk, I try to find out what I am, who I am. And then I was taught slightly Mahasi and the W, and also, you know, the 20 Dom, and some other, you know, the Mahasi branch, as Seattle's, that they taught me that, you know, to have the meditations made me, you know, find myself finally, I felt this, you know, the, this is not the religions, this is the best way to have the peace of mind. That's why I became the devoted Buddhist before I was arrested.
Host 24:34
So, even before your activism in 1988, you had a consistent meditation practice, you were learning from monkey and so, this this was a part of your life. And, and so I guess that brings us to the 1988 activism. This is a question that so many young Buddhists today are facing in Myanmar. You have you've been raised with different religions, different beliefs. Your father was a free thinker. But you end up seeing the value in in meditation and particularly the Mahasi. And town polu branches of meditation, you study with some of those masters. And then 1988 happens. And you become an activist, I assume, as today, the nonviolent activists, that's what the early protests became. And then when the military responded violently, there was no more room for any kind of, as you say, political solution or civil discourse, because the only language that they're speaking is violent, and you joined one of the armed student groups. And so I'm wondering how you were, I'm wondering how difficult that decision was to make and what went through your mind coming from a background in meditation, which is, is really the most non harmful activity and state of being in the world that one can actually do simply sitting down with closed eyes as causing the least harm to the world and to humanity is as possible and actually creating quite a bit of good. And then realizing that you needed to stand up to tyranny, and the only way to stand up to this evil in your country was to join an armed student group. So was this transition difficult for you? Or how were you able to manage that with your background and beliefs?
Linn Thant 26:25
It's really difficult for me, because, you know, I wanted to catch the peace, peaceful and quiet life. But, you know, the, we, as the Burmese people saying that, in the DP, we didn't choose to hit is the history choose me. So the, that's why, you know, I have to, I had to choose the such the opposite. I didn't want to, but I had the finally I have to, you know, I have to choose this for the country sake, not for the person and that's why I became the one of the, you know, the student arms group member.
Host 27:11
So, then, when you're in the prison, you're practicing meditation every morning, and then you're getting beaten after meditating. I can't Yes, you know, sorry, I can't even you know, he's like, I'm breaking up.
Linn Thant 27:24
Yeah. You know, that's not to say that you know, be a Buddhist be gilas and be you know, the, you know, praising gods they are saying that the Buddhist but not when I was you know, meditating, they were angry with me, why are you doing the meditation, the problem is, you know, if I, because one of the, you know, experiencee when I was, you know, the meditating one of the prison guards, he took me out from the cell room, and then I was beaten, and three days after he was, you know, he was dead, after according to you know, he was stabbed in accidents, car accidents, then are in incidents in some of the, you know, prison guards, they were angry with me, oh, and he, he, he beat me so, bad, that, you know, he was, you know, beat me and then he was dead, because the pen Yeah, they call me but now, there is one of my My name is in prison, you know, I have several names. So, they were so angry with me and then especially, if I do the meditation, that means that they are, they are feeling this, they are, you know, getting something, you know, beds for them. They felt and then they were angry and then they thought they beat me again and again, but I did meditation, I told them that you know, the meditation is not for you know, you know, the, you know, this is not for the you know, the revolution. This is just for the you know, peace of mind. If I do meditation, you will get it. I explained to the, you know, the jailers and the prison guards, you will get off to the, you know, the very good results. You don't need to watch whenever I do need to be constantly in front of my mastering every 15 minutes, you know, the, they are reading they are writing down the note downs what I'm doing always, you know, the 24 hours, you know, recordings, the first you know, two years that was you know, it was really funny. Yeah, I was I didn't get any it. I didn't get any idea why they are beating me. But I think that you know, behaves something doing good. I think so.
Host 29:45
Yeah, it's it's a terrible image to have in the mind. To think of your you're locked alone in a cell with no access or daylight. And you're doing this activity which is the least harmful activity that humans can do on earth you're sitting with your eyes closed. And sitting with your eyes closed your practice may be metta you may be sending goodwill to all beings you may be becoming aware of the relationship between the mind and body you may be examining the mental contents you you may be looking at the sense doors and feeling sensation, any number of these things, they're all creating this whichever the practice is, in some way, it's it's opening the body, it's relaxing the mind it's becoming at peace and being vulnerable with examining what's in and anyone who's done meditation can attest, or even yoga for that matter can attest to that feeling of openness and vulnerability that comes after an hour session and to think that after that time that you're doing this practice you are then violently beaten in that state you know, I just get choked up even even trying to imagine how that would be and I I want to ask what I don't know how to I've had this question in my mind and part of it seems kind of stupid part of it seems kind of offensive I don't know exactly the right way to ask it. So I'll just come out and say how after doing that kind of after doing meditation for as long as you were doing as intensively as you were and then in during those beatings what were your feelings towards those that were beating you did you hate them? Were you able to forgive them? Were you able to wish them compassion and goodwill? Or was it all of the above there were different meditation sessions and different beatings bringing out different responses in the mind
Linn Thant 31:37
honestly, you know I never angry with them I never too now I never you know use the very bad was in Burmese saying that in austerity, I never I never do such on such words after I was released from prison even you know I discussed with my family members they didn't agree with me. I told them that we are fighting against the only the sense not the same as apart my father told me that we our family lives with damage and disliked by the military leaders. We were broke in the he told me this. But I told my family know that we are fighting against just only you know, sin, not for the center. This is my you know, my, my belief. When I did you know, the meditation I found myself I felt so I shouldn't you know, paid to others. I should. I must love all beings be on the bees. When they beat me. They are new, you know, actors. I'm not they will have to pay back for the actions for the beat for the year, you know, bad deeds. I'm doing good. They are doing bad, but they are the first actors. I am not. When I was in prison, this you know, many experience I had many experience, you know, such can be able to even you know, Mr. Kenyan and the former military generals. I never hate them. Till now. I never hate if I say this works. Many of the activists they will hate me. I don't care. This is my perception. My pillar. Right now, I am a representative of the national unity government to fight against a military dictatorship in Myanmar. Burma. Still, no, I don't hate the military personal. I just hate the actions. This is my belief. Very simple.
Host 34:07
And so how do you reconcile this personal view you hold of not hating them and not wishing them bad with the decision both then as well as now to take up or support and armed resistance.
Linn Thant 34:28
Honestly, you know, the I'm supporting to the armed resistance in Myanmar right now. It means it's the end of the violence. For the you know, innocent people in our country. There are 1000s of pupils being killed during the one here in the past seven decades. 1000s 1000s of people All innocent villages, children, women, the oldies were being killed. Still now the violence accelerates by the military. That's why in the last year, the results of the 2020 general election see RPh announced the military is a terrorist group. The military is not the military. And also the police department, also the terrorist group. Because the terrorizing the our civilians, innocent people, our civilians, they have the right to protect their their life. That's why I suppose politically, to the armed resistance. Not my personal it, this is a politically I suppose.
Host 36:10
So I want to go back to the meditation that you were doing in the prison, you talked about doing a Mahasi style of meditation, also tongue blue, which is a branch of Mahasi. And that this was the only thing that gave you lightness, optimism that prevented you from giving up that allowed you to keep on day after day and trying even in the most unspeakable of conditions. You mentioned sometimes practicing upwards of 14 hours a day in solitary confinement, even knowing that merely practicing meditation merely sitting in cross legged position would bring on beating and torture. I know that meditation is a activity that can be done anywhere in any any condition in any place. However, I would imagine that doing it in prison in those conditions would bring about different thoughts and insights and experiences than a meditation center or a monastery or even a cave or one's home. So I'm wondering if during all those years of doing meditation, in prison, if you can say something about the type of insights that you have the type of meditative insights and understanding into the Buddhist teaching or the nature of reality or the nature of the mind that your meditation brought you when you were in that place.
Linn Thant 37:35
Honestly, you know, when I was prisons, doing the meditation makes me a lot of you know, the positive mindsets, especially you know, are the mental powers to be our you know, stronger and stronger. And I was present you know, I had a lot of the noisy and torture songs, the you know, screaming you know, the prison was you know, torture and they were shouting, I heart. And then you know, I try to you know, meditate on it. As you know that meditation is, you know, just accepting what's happening. So, we don't follow the such kind of feelings to them. It is just only mind and matter. And the you know, on and off and I got the you know, the experience and the experience make me you know, the something you know, perfect that I got a lot of you know the doing, you know, the meditation experience. And you know, the, the one of the best thing is you know, I had a lot of noise See, I heard sometimes you know the quiet and the situation says not this you know, sustainable, it was you know, all the time it was changing. But in my room, nothing changed. But it is just only a feet and feet and their feet in the darkroom. In my spare room, there is no box, no electricity, no lights. I didn't see anything else. I just had it, it means that I can block it, you know, one of the eyes, sides. It is one of the best thing. And then the other thing is, you know, after the 9pm Everybody has to go down sleep. So, that is one of the best time for me to study at you know, the 9pm But I heard the bell you know, ringing or every 15 Say 15 minutes, and the I think one of the some of the Agilis and the prison as a shoutings everything is good. And the sounds make me be, you know, to get the you know, the practice to have the meditate. Oh, that is that was his met, I just knew it. That's my oh my met man imagine it's on and off, on and off. He finally I saw not that you really are not I am I'm not what I am, I'm not who I am. And then I felt just only feeling of the on and off, it was fairly pleasant, it was a very nice, very peaceful I felt that feeling is I never forget about such kind of feeling when I was busy doing the meditation, it was really nice. And the, the another thing is, you know, I didn't have the any extra, you know, Halsy work or something like that I just solely, I don't have to, you know, I have a lot I had a lot of time, I was rich of time it was at the time, these times should be used. So that's why I did meditation. And I studied many languages and also study the politics, I smoke all the many books, not only the, you know, the meditation, but as I was doing, you know, the studying other subjects, and also, you know, some other books, I smuggled many books
Host 41:33
did you have any teacher or any guide that you can go to, to ask questions about your meditation experience?
Linn Thant 41:40
Yes, of course. Uh, you know, I, I had, you know, shared with the, you know, some of the my colleagues, you know, about the experience? And also, you know, we change your experience. And so what is the result? How do you feel it, you know, the meditation results today, or the some of the other, you know, subjects we it came to bear to experience our, you know, there'll be unions, and the politics, and also some of the things as well, it means that, you know, we always, you know, try to be occupied it's
Host 42:16
part of the Buddhist teachings as well. And the experience of meditation is the understanding of dukkha. It's often translated as suffering, yes, simply non satisfactory Ness. And indeed, the first Noble, the Four Noble Truths are all about the recognition of the existence of suffering, and the path leading away from the existence of suffering. When you're in prison, I imagine that the truth of suffering is something that comes clear to the experience into perception, perhaps a bit easier and more unadulterated than in the world where we can get distracted by so many other things, what did your meditation experience guide you and lead you towards a deeper understanding of dukkha?
Linn Thant 43:03
This is, you know, because of the inner, I think that you know, you know, continuously, you know, doing the, you know, doing the exercise is, you know, the make me, you know, something especially enlightened man, I think so. But, you know, I didn't engage, you know, the any enlightened means, I mean, that I'm not, you know, the total. But I'm trying to be, you know, I'm trying to be better. On the other hand, I, as far as I know, that, you know, the, you know, I can see that, you know, the repetitively you know, doing the meditation is, you know, the making the power.
Host 43:53
Right. You mentioned how your prison sentence came with a death sentence, actually, and that you were put in the part of the prison for death row, basically. So, why was this death sentence handed to you? And then how were you able to escape this this death sentence and to have it removed or revoked?
Linn Thant 44:18
Yes, you know, you know, the first study, they were charged with, you know, the are the, it is called the high treason act, and that's why, you know, I was sentenced to death and the after the three years, in 1993, in Myanmar, the political landscape, it can be, it was a little bit changed, to have to start the national conventions, we call it you know, it is, you know, the the wall longest international conventions, Myanmar. It started in 1993. The Military Council announced that, you know, the amnesty it is not amnesty, it is so cool amnesty, the death sentence to the reduced to the life sentence it means 20 years imprisonment. And so in 1993, I was reduced to the, you know, the life sentence, but I stayed in the death row.
Host 45:19
How long did you stay in death row?
Linn Thant 45:24
Or do you know, eight years or nine
Host 45:29
years in death row? So that was eight years of thinking that any moment you might get the call for the end of life? Yes. I don't, I don't even know what to ask about that, or what to think about it. So you were, you know, they, I'm just going back to my understanding as a meditator, and in the intensive retreats that I've done, and speaking to some of the great masters, there's advice that comes to guidance that comes in the meditation, to imagine death coming in the next moment to know that nothing is certain that any next moment can lead to death and to prepare the mind and, and, and the life and your ethical and spiritual practice for knowing that death could happen at any moment. However, for most of us, the next moment does come and we're still here. For you for those eight years, you were you were living with a very real possibility that any next moment, based on the whim of the quick decision making of some guard or some general somewhere, that the next moment really could be the last moment. So I, I also can't imagine how that would have affected your meditation practice. Undergoing meditation, knowing that, that you don't know how much you have left, because you're, you're on death row for eight years. So to live with that kind of equanimity. And to Yeah, I sorry, I don't know what to ask about that. It's just I, I can't imagine the the burden that must be placed the emotional and psychological burden of living in confinement for eight years on death row.
Linn Thant 47:22
You know, you know, honestly, I really, thank you, thanks to the, you know, Military Council. Because, you know, the sense to me, that that's, you know, sentenced to death. That made me You know, I got the one idea that, Oh, I was lucky because I can know, what takes I can be dead. It was really lucky. I thought at the time, I think, you know, to be you know, military, you know, dictators at the time, in 1990. Because of them, you know, so I can do that, you know, I can be die, I can't be there at any time. Before I died, I must do the meditation for the best. That's how I do meditation every day. It means that I don't, I'm not afraid to be there. I was not afraid to be there. But I need to know about you know, the how to be on how to you know, overcome the debt. Being dead. That's why I did meditation. I, I changed about my feelings to you know, I think still the, you know, military journals, because they tend to be dead. So, some people's assumptions, if they are laughing at me, why are you doing see my dad? No, no, this is, you know, all the time, I was trying to find out the best, you know, the positives, you know, thinking because the positive mindset can make me positive things. I believe it. I never, I tried to, you know, you know, I tried to do the, you know, the, you know, pessimistic all the time trying to positive things. And it's really good, you know, it was really good you know, the because you know, that normally, you know, come on people don't know when they will be there. They don't know they will die. But as a you know, prisoner of you know, that sentence in the you know, death row. One day I can be dead. So, that is it was lucky, you can imagine that I can prepare for my death. That's why I prepared
Host 49:37
when you prepared by meditation?
Linn Thant 49:39
Yes, of course, meditation is the best preparation for the death.
Host 49:46
Does it ever strike you as ironic that the military rulers that had justified their role largely by a desire to protect Buddhism and sustain Buddhism, were the same same people that were beating and torturing you because you were doing Buddhist meditation.
Linn Thant 50:05
Yeah. You see that? You know, I don't, you know, I don't believe that they are not the I don't believe, you know, I'm sure I'm can say that they are not Buddhist, they are so called Buddhists, is the they are Buddhists. They will never do such kind of the atrocity to the, you know, civilians and awesome people. This is a very clear message, but the misuse they have they misuse the Buddhism as their religion. It is the biggest mistake. And
Host 50:43
if they're using misusing Buddhism as their religion, then why would you say some of the more respected and great monks don't speak out against them, aside from a few exceptions, Why the silence on one hand and on the other hand, the actual support for the regime from some of these monks that are highly respected in the country, if the generals aren't Buddhist, what is there to say about these monks who are condoning it?
Linn Thant 51:12
That is really great questions. And really, thank you for your questions. I would like to say many, you know things about these purpose in Myanmar, Burma, the very prominent, you know, Buddhist monks, they are right now absence to teach the military generals it means that, you know, being our, you know, the real Bodis not if a monk they have the, you know, duty to teach that people has to respect the fact perceptions to be, you know, clever, to be human beings, they have to teach, but, unfortunately, very famous Buddhist mom, the supporting to the military Haunters, the appraising the Gup br You know, protecting to the military generals. I'm very sorry for such prominence to this leaders. But I'm very glad that many Buddhist monks are not on the same boat. Like such Canada menace. You see that in Mendeley, one of the monks city, there are 1000s of months please to protesting against the military new Hunter and they are standing with the people Nima many Buddhist monk 1000s of Buddhist monk be standing with the people near La be speaking out about the people near mas Safaree accepts such kind of the you know the supporter, prominent monks in Myanmar many young generations right now, they're saying that they just only respect to the real monk, real Buddhist monk not no need to be famous. If they respect the we need we need Yeah, they will respect they are saying that. But such cannot be you know the Buddhist monks including higher you know Brahmin and monks be very, very, you know, doing bad things. It means that he or indirectly you know, forced to kill the people of Myanmar in awesome people. The killer are getting the license by Sustainer the monks the Buddhist monk including you know, sila Gu he is giving the killers to have the license to kill So, according to the Wynia he cannot be the man he is also committed to kill me this aids it's a very dangerous to me. I know it but I have to see it
Host 55:01
I understand I understand the risk in, in the courage in saying these things aloud. And I appreciate the risk that you're taking. I want to ask you a question that before I ask it, I want to let you know that I have asked the same question actually word for word to sway when he was the founder of Myanmar now also a political prisoner to to my Theda who was also a political prisoner and was a writer as well and a doctor and to Alan comments who was a Mahasi monk and also a political activists in Myanmar for some time. The reason why I think this question is so pertinent to these kinds of people in yourself is that you represent this very rarefied, unique intersection between dedication to the Dharma and the Buddhist teachings, and also political activism and social engagement. And we're looking at where these two worlds come together. And that's what this question indicates. So the question is, Burma is a complicated country. It has a difficult recent history, combined with a rich meditative tradition that has inspired mindfulness movements all around the world, from some of the great teachers and traditions. A question that I often personally get from meditators is, why is there not more peace in a country where so many people are at the forefront of pursuing this inner peace? So there's this kind of contradiction. On the one hand, you have these great mindfulness teachers and movements that have in fact, spread around the world based on their wisdom. On the other hand, you have one of the greatest examples of tyranny and evil and inhumanity in the world today and for the past half century or more. So, what is your answer and thought to this, why is there such instability in a country where for so long, people have tried to attain the greatest mental instability?
Linn Thant 57:07
Yes, this is a very, you know, very good question, but it's very complicated to answer about, it's very comprehensive. The first I can say that, you know, in Myanmar, your people Myanmar is suffering to over seven decades of the such kind of, you know, the Toka. Because, you know, the, it was touched by the, you know, the many Buddhists, you know, Monk, we have the same, that's all the time the, the patients don't fight against the you know, the the Burkean or you know, the administrators, that is, you know, the wrong you know, teaching. So, I can say that, you know, the, in our country, bomber, especially over 80% of the populations are Buddhist, Buddhist monks, they are teaching our maybe mistakes especially, you know, they just only teach to the people to be patient. But some monks, they are teaching the real Buddhism but I'm sure that you know, the therapy over the, you know, the 40 Millions, Buddhists in Myanmar, but it is, it is just so called, you know, the traditional Buddhists I'm sure that know, they are not you know, devoted Buddhist if the 10% of the populations maybe, you know, devoted Buddhists and then our country will be stable that is to not God, you know, the mind one of the you know, religious point of view, but on the other hand, the system of the political system, it was really a mistake. And the another thing is, you know, you know, self interest, the people is just only thinking of their own interest, not for others, they became egoless they became the selfish, it makes, you know, long you know, suffering in Nima. So, but this year, and last year after the military, you know, attempted coup, the people of Myanmar woke up the ants Do we have to end these kinds of the, you know, military rules and never be understood? The Myanmar leaders, especially military leaders, misused Buddhism, and other religion as well. So, we can see that Burma is one of the misuse country, we can see that Burma is the, you know, the but, you know, one of the, you know, how can I see that, you know, this is a very, very bad word, I don't want to say that, you know, it is an ally of the country. All the time people's ally. They say that we don't like any lie, but be a lie. I don't like it. If they don't like a lie. They shouldn't lie. Even the justice the ally, actually became a justice. He became charged. And the, you know, all system is, you know, really, really, you know, complicated. And the, it's a land of line, it's a land of corruption, it Slann have misused so many bad things. In Myanmar, it has happened. But luckily, you know, last year, because of the, you know, me online, he attempts to group the people, they found out, they found yourself be found out, you know, what they are, who they are. So, that is good. I feel it right now.
Host 1:02:10
So, you talk about being in prison for 20 years, I believe eight of those on death row. And then I think you said it was 2008 You were released, I can't imagine having the routine, I'm 20 years and whether a routine is good or bad, it's familiar or a routine is something that becomes our becomes our familiar surroundings and activities and everything else, and we get used to it, whatever, whether it's toxic, or, or something beneficial. But after these 20 years of the routine of being in prison, 2008 you're released, and the prison doors open and you walk back into the world, can you describe what that experience was like?
Linn Thant 1:02:55
To you that, you know, the, I didn't see any change any changes. But, you know, the peoples they are they are, they felt it's something better, but not for me that so, you know, the I found out that, you know, the, it was not be changed during the 20 years, only the, you know, the, you know, properties caused in the prices, I didn't see you know, and the more beat the more you know, corruption See, I found it's, you know, after the you know, 20 years, I noticed that you know, the many corruptions happens, you know, the markets, it likes in the legal it was same, I found it bribery, corruption is illegal. So, that is, you know, the, it means that, you know, it is you know, damaged of the society. So, I didn't see you know, any of the, you know, good things
Host 1:03:53
and how about your own personal transition back into society, what, after 20 years behind bars and largely being by yourself and being beaten and tortured during that time as well what what was your own personal transition back into civilian life, like
Linn Thant 1:04:10
my own transition is a very, very, you know, difficult, you know, the first you know, I was not allowed to, you know, join the, you know, my society very, you know, you know, easily I was very difficult to join, you know, by society. After I was released from prison, many of my friends, even relatives, you know, they didn't want me to join their, you know, society as well. They didn't, you know, they didn't talk to me. They didn't want to, you know, deal with me, and they didn't, you know, you know, employ me, I caught in to be jobless. And I was unemployment. And then, you know, I tried to you know, learn about the you know, the computers called bidders and also you know, it technology and to, to get in, you know, you know, to get mineral content within the international trends, I studied, you know, the after hours differently I studied, you know, it is something like that, even, you know, I was trying to, you know, learn about, you know, the, or to how to tie the computer in lucky tie, I started with you know, you know, zero h from zero ground. And then you know, but I decided that, you know, be some other people's, you know, the rent is, you know, walking, and then at the time in, I must run. So, that's, you know, biggest, you know, challenge to me to involve in this, you know, society. Another thing is, you know, the language, My language is totally different from others at the time. No one was not, you know, interested in the politics at the time. But it was, you know, just only, you know, the one year after the, you know, the nugget, you know, nugget cyclone. And also, you know, one year after the, you know, the suffer revolution, a few of the activists, you know, the activist society, okay, they welcomed me very warmly, but not others. So I saw that, you know, the, I felt, you know, I didn't have the, you know, religion, original relatives, I didn't have I felt, you know, I didn't have the friends, only I have friends, only activists, because you were the head, we have the same language. But other people we didn't get, but I finally I tried to find out, no, it was wrong, I have to educate to the people, because they have to know it, they have to be educated, then I started to make something, you know, educational program. And I just get to some of my colleagues, and we make the many programs to, you know, to educate the people, which are about, you know, the, across the country making the networking and also, you know, educated with the people to know, what is right, what is wrong? What is fair, what is unfair? What is justice? What is injustice, we have to teach to the people, we have to educate the people. So we decided to do such kind of things at the time,
Host 1:07:29
and what years, were you doing that and what were the results?
Linn Thant 1:07:34
It was really great, you know, during the two years to to, after I was released from prison to 2008 and 2009. And the 2010 marks I fled from Burma. So, during the, you know, nearly two years, it was freely kids, that people you know, the are trying to wake up, they try to understand what is the you know, the right and wrong. Justice and justice, Fair enough, fair, bit, 3d Good. Education is a very important in my society. So that's why so, we are right now educated to the people of Myanmar. Since then, the people are getting, you know, aware of the, you know, the politics, they understand, they are understanding, they understood. And then, in 2021, after the military, you know, attempted coup, the people woke up right now, they deny, you know, military rule in Myanmar, this is a big move of the, you know, education.
Host 1:08:55
So, what were your views on the transition period? Because I know there there are a lot of different theories and perspectives on what was actually happening during that time. I think one thing that we can safely say is that for at least for many Bomar that were in the urban centers, it was a time of a lot of new opportunities, whether those opportunities were in the form of education or professional opportunities or internet or even just having a kind of latte or ice cream or something that just even even in terms of material products that weren't there before. And I've heard it explained that when when there was concern being expressed about different parts of politics, not really being fair, equitable. What discussion about the Rohingya about the rise of 969 about the some of the songs that she's policies and her proximity with, in with the military and and and somewhat of a shared perspective, I think that it's been said that when those concerns were being expressed by international media and organizations and others, there were those, especially in the cities, who really felt like this is our time in the sun, this is our chance to be able to finally live somewhat of a normal life. And we, we don't really want to have this drag us down, we don't want to have to, to be back in arguing about these, these kinds of matters. Because in our own life, we've seen some improvement. And I should mention, this viewpoint I'm putting out here is not my own. This was, if I remember correctly, I had a podcast guest last year one two was his name. And this is how he explained it to me, he was a an economist. And during the transition period, he saw it as kind of like, the as things started to open up, people didn't really want to be bothered, they wanted to be able to live and grow in their life without having to worry about some of these heavier and more complicated and perhaps uglier things. And, and yet, they're there legitimately were transitions, changes, opportunities, freedoms, one cannot deny that there were certainly freedoms in many different fields, especially when you're looking outside of the ethnic areas. That's another story, the what, what their history and what they've gone through Myanmar is a story of many different people's lives and cultures and regions. So it's not just one history, it's many, many interlocking and overlapping histories, but at least in the cities, there really was a greater sense of opportunity and freedom. And yet, there were also these other things going on, which I think many would argue directly led to where we are now. So from your standpoint, from your background of experience, and involvements and understanding before, how are you looking at this transition period.
Linn Thant 1:11:55
You know, this is very simple in the I can say that, you know, the transitions, PDFs can be at least they want generations, this is, you know, estimation box, there's a little pass away. So, right now, the is your, many of the populations are willing to transit in at our countries to build a new society. You know, that's why I'm sure that you know, we can, you know, it can be taken, you know, around, you know, the, you know, at the case, at least. But, you know, in many of the era, you know, the Burmese, you know, experts, and the many of the baby's you know, technicians and professionals, and the common peoples, they are willing to, you know, set up the new society, this is very good to, you know, get the, you know, the transitions and to build up the new, you know, society to preserve the, you know, the, you know, freedom to build up the, you know, federal democracy country. The, so, we can see that, you know, right now, the, you know, everybody's so willing to do so, this is the, you know, very good, you know, moments. So, right now, the, you know, our, you know, populations are, you know, very aware of, and the So, we can do it, you know, so if we, you know, and, you know, the military rule in Myanmar, and then the next day, we'll start our transition, and then a few years there, so we can, you know, attain our goal in the weekend sustains, you know, the, our, you know, results for our future generations.
Host 1:13:53
And looking at this 2010 period of transition, what was your understanding of what was taking place during that time? How did you view this time these years
Linn Thant 1:14:02
yesterday that, you know, we are saying that, you know, at the time 2010 election is not the election, it was the selections, you know, that Mr. Payne said he changed in America, you know, at the time, you see, Prime Minister, Minister, general Taisei became the, you know, you know, President is the face you know, with the you know, changing you know, clothes it's just not you know, the elections it was you know, fake it is fake. It is not the, you know, real transitions with real transitions right now, everybody see that? It is a very obvious I'm, I would like to see that in 2012. You know, dilations be also suiting and the National League for Democracy, the biggest, you know, opposition party in the Mr. Big contested invalid violations because of, you know, international, you know, the past versions, including United States. I remember that at the time, you know, I was, you know, in the, you know, in, you know, in Myanmar, I was already released from, you know, the prison I studied about, you know, the world politics and also the game of politics. I kept on eyes, you know, the the current situations, and the, the Obama and also, you know, the Hillary Clinton did try to push, you know, Aung San su T to contest, you know, the by elections. So, and the Obama trip to Myanmar, you see that, you know, he gave a speech, a very successful speech, and he was proud of the his, you know, the foreign policy, you know, was when, as it was the University of the US foreign policy, bombers taper was has been changed. And, but, you know, it's been the last year, it was obvious results. This is my politically, I would like to point it out the United States, but right now, the United States is really good to, you know, green doing good, you know, the yesterday the bad, you know, Biden administration's the, you know, the, the accepted, you know, the military is committing genocide against the Rohingya. That is good, but, you know, in the past, you know, Indonesia, in the communities is just only focused on the, you know, interest, including United States and other European countries. And Nima will saying that in the one of the prominent, you know, poets, the Mr. Moto name, so I love you know, him, I love his poems, you know, very much, one of the, you know, the biggest, you know, the world's influence be that, you know, in our life, we need this only two things, real friends are real enemies. We are clear that in memory politically, you see that, you know, the weekend see, we obviously, you know, we know who our enemy are. But still now, you know, that, it is not very clear, because, you know, who are our real friends? I feel a little sad to say, like that. So, in 2010, you know, it was just only, you know, make that transition. It was not in a real transition. That's fine. You know, it's happening right now, in Yama. It was making make a transition?
Host 1:17:26
And then how about 2015 Those elections and Aung San Su Qi coming on a state councilor and LD, been in some position of power? What did you think of those years from 15 to 20?
Linn Thant 1:17:38
You see, that that is, you know, follow to the 2010 unit. So this NCCS, she, she had to follow the, you know, the 2012 violation contests. And then she decided to involve in the, you know, being fully, you know, you know, you know, the the military, you know, the traps, fish, she was entrapped? And also, you see, she contest it in the, you know, she and the National League for Democracy, in contrast to in you know, 2015 election and the National League for Democracy do they won a landslide victory. It was, you know, the, and then the military generals, they are happy that, oh, we got the the rabbits at the time, you know, their money are getting, you know, a chance to get the laundry, the money to be whites and the properties to be legalized. Because the, you know, awesome city and the National League for Democracy and the other democratic, you know, the parties involved in the our elections, they felt the election was made by in that lesson was made by the general military. So then, you know, the international communities, including United States and EU, they lifted the sanctions on the, you know, Myanmar, in the past, according to the, you know, human rights, you know, violations, you know, the they were banned, they were sanctions, many years. So, after the, you know, 2015 2000 society became the State Counselor. And then so energy was became, you know, the elected civilian government, United States and, you know, European Union, they lifted sanctions against them. And military generals, they became the legal billionaires in 2020 elections. Austin Suchi and the military torn city and you know, the are nationally for democracy be contested in 2020 elections, and then they want landslide victory again, but to answer Suchi she tried to persuade the military generals, to have the resignation or reconciliation, and on the other heads the she would like to set it up the new society. She would like to set it as the national unity in Myanmar. So after the election, she will form the nation the unity government. See decided? That's why the military generals, the you know, the or tried to make it last year, February 1.
Host 1:20:37
What did you think of her rule of those five years when the NLD and unsung Suchi had were in some kind of position of authority? Certainly, they didn't have all the controls of government, but more than that they ever had up to that point, but what did you think of their work during those five years?
Linn Thant 1:20:58
You know, it is, you know, the, under the, you know, 2008 constitution, she was working, she worked for the government, the, you know, several the government, according to the, you know, 2008 constitution is was just only for the 75% of the, you know, the or, you know, every, you know, elements, and the 25% of the universe elements are controlled by the military. And the, you know, the civilian government, the LED BY THE also into our society, she didn't get, you know, any investigations on the military. Even in a budget, she cannot control it. The military, you know, never listened to the two answers, which he and the President, never, ever. They never respect to the civilian, you know, the President in many respects to the civilian government leaders. They pretended to respect them. They were doing their own jobs, they were doing their own business, they controlling their, you know, businesses and the country as well. Johnson City and the civilian government was misused by the military, but they were afraid that, you know, they are getting, you know, they were getting, you know, power from the International and the local population. So, they were afraid of it, that's fine. You know, they, they made it, you know, identical. But, you know, the people, they felt it, you know, the Dawson City and civil government, they try, they tried to, you know, cancel the many of the, you know, unjust laws and, you know, regulations, the people were getting the feeling and the taste of the democracy, but not the, you know, 100% a few of the days of the democracy, a few of the tests of the freedom. You can see that, you know, in the last five years, many activists can, you know, blame to the, you know, presidents to rightly, many activists can, you know, protests against the, you know, civil the government. Many activists can, you know, do the inner criticize to the government. They felt, oh, that's the kind of the democracy, the people, we felt it's a piece of the democracy. That's why, in 2020, they knew that the population of the Myanmar they knew that we have to vote for the energy. If the energy when the elections in 2020 elections, we will have more democracy that people be believed. That's why in 2020, the National League for Democracy, they want, you know, general election, the people the belief in the Johnson City, they believe in the, you know, the civilian leaders. That is a very good bucks for the International to answer city and civil in government, as you know, they're very difficult to deal with the other, you know, issues. They will feel some, you know, Indonesian politics because of the, you know, missionary cancellations. She tried the best, but
Host 1:24:50
what do you think, do you what's your evaluation of what she tried to do and you reference how, in the eyes of the international community it was a failure and a disappointment Of course, one has to acknowledge that she doesn't have full control as 75% and several ministries, which he has no control, or even, can, can even even access to what they're doing reports, as you mentioned, are given all that, do you think there was more she could have done or something that she or the NLD leadership could have handled better than they did? Or do you think they were doing the best they could? Under those conditions?
Linn Thant 1:25:30
Yes, of course, you know, they were doing for the best, you know, they can as much as they can get it. But on the other hand, you know, even in the outdoor society, She sacrificed her glory, or for her, you know, the belief she didn't want, you know, to have the plus it's in country in Myanmar. That's why she tried to deal with the military generals to have, you know, reconciliations and she thought that it was right. But the finally, she got, you know, you know, arrested and the but, but she, she he was failed, you know, the because, you know, he didn't get, you know, the fully support from the, you know, the military, military never supposed to be also to our society and civilian government. And she was very difficult situation, she was entrapped. And then the most, you know, ugly, you know, the scenario is, you know, she tried to protect the military at the, you know, iCj international communities, you know, they are, you know, they are pointing out the why, you know, the, or the Nobel Peace laureate, you know, be protecting to the war criminals. And then they will, you know, leaders, the, you know, were angry with, you know, to answer some tea. I felt it, you know, she was trying for the best, but she, she, she felt she failed, and she sacrifice ourselves. But right now, she understood what she did, and how she did. And the results, you know, the obvious. And she feel is right now, I'm sure she feels, you know, the she feels the, you know, the very inner regret. And I'm sure that, you know, she did for the best she makes for the best, but she's feeling regrets, I think so.
Host 1:27:35
I want to go back to your personal story during these years you released in 2008. And as you put it, in the first five minutes of our interview, you were released, and you went back into society preparing for the second round, ready to, to go and, and, and continue where you left off. And then you fill in the gaps, you talk about how it's very difficult for you to reenter any society and a social or professional way, given your past you try to do these couple years of educational programs to try to as as things are changing in Myanmar, you're trying to give this kind of political education, to some of the youth about history or context that they don't know, because they're not allowed to know. But there's, there's not really a feeling of revolution in the air at that time. I was personally in Myanmar for most of these years. And I can also attest to that, especially as the transition opened up, and there were more opportunities. So there's not many people that are on the side of still trying to point out to all the dangers and the problems, because there's a certain degree of stability and opportunity and freedom even that's never been there before. Eventually you move on to Thailand and then to check can you share a bit how you ended up in these countries and as a Burmese refugee or exile, at this moment, your experience in in, in coming into these two countries and cultures and, and how, how, how you chose to go there and how you were supported once you were there.
Linn Thant 1:29:16
You know, the entire lane because you know Tallinn is one of the you know, the you know Burmese eight Cyclops, you know based. So, that's why, you know, I choose Thailand differs. And the many of the my colleagues and friends they were there. So that's why I choose the tiny majority, one of the educational foundations, the thinking classroom Foundation founded by the Tata tea when I joined it, and then you know, I joined the LGBT group. And then, you know, in 2011, I was invited to the Czech Republic and to share my experience of the freedom, democracy and human rights and the forum 2000, then, because of the former president firsthand, so we got a seven year integral party in Thailand in you know, there are many exiled groups, and we had a lot of, you know, it's our movement, it's, you know, experiences. But it, you know, most of the exile Cube City, you know, depends on the INGOs and cranes, and the, to run their projects. So, it was a very difficult situation. But in 2000, you know, after the 2010, international, you know, organizations the boost to sustain the exile is I groups to join the, you know, the transition in the so called make a transition in Myanmar. I felt that at the time, no, no, it was not, it was fake, it was a fake, it was a makeup transition. So we shouldn't move inside, I decided that and that's why I didn't, you know, going back to Nima many of my friends, you know, they, they go, they went back to Myanmar, and to join some of the programs and projects. And so, last year, it was second in the AMA, you know, military combatants member, and then they fled from Yama, I told that by now, I am in Czech Republic. And you see that there will be I never trust to the, you know, military generals, their mentality is very, very dangerous, and never trust, you know, their mentality. So that's why, you know, I, I never, you know, join the, you know, military training, you know, the ways and, you know, they're there, they're open ups, you know, the platforms, I never work on it. The integral public, you know, I'm kidding a lot of the lessons of the, you know, democratic, you know, the movement activities and democratic mindsets, and the Western countries has, you know, very good university into their respects to you know, human rights, I started you know, in the very beginning of the year, living in Czech Republic, you know, I felt, you know, how it is, you know, totally different, you know, from our country, people are very, you know, independent, and they they are feeling, you know, be very, you know, relax and also, you know, freedom, the the very independent and the tax, the respect the the rights. But after a few years in Czech Republic, I found out that, you know, in Czech Republic has also been a political problems as well, but not the same as you know, Myanmar party check is one of the, you know, the, you know, the smooth, smooth sway to transits, you know, the authoritarians to democracy country. So, we learned a lot of lessons from the Czech Republic and other European countries as well. Personally, you know, in Myanmar's, there is so complicated, and the whole system and the our culture is still, you know, you know, needs to be, you know, the educates. That's my feeling.
Host 1:33:46
Yeah, I certainly agree. And that's actually a feeling that the military has manipulated. And they've taken what you've said, and turned it on its head for years for decades by saying that the Burmese people are not yet ready for democracy. They're not yet mature for democracy that there's going back decades and even centuries in Burmese history, there's certainly a kind of patronizing sense that the leader is supposed to have as a, a caretaker for the people that almost like a wiser and more mature father and taking care of them in ways that they're not able to take care of for themselves. This kind of psyche has been investigated in different academics and most particularly Matthew Walden is what I'm thinking of other certainly uncovered as well. But you're also noticing that there does need to be some kind of groundwork preparing them for democracy and for the maturity of being able to live in that kind of system and participate. What are your feelings towards that criticism on the part of the military that the Burmese people are simply not ready for not mature enough for democracy and that they They need to be the ones that are ensuring the stability of the country and making those decisions.
Linn Thant 1:35:07
You know, right now, I'm, I'm feeling that, you know, the our people, it's just not the democracy, because they're very mature right now. Because subsea No, they are activities, you know, tireless activities, you know, the obvious over the, you know, one year, our revolution experience, you know, people to see, you know, supporting us and LSD, they know, they're supporting us, you know, financially, you know, mentally, you know, physically the people see, you know, sacrificing their lives to have the, you know, democracy and the freedom and our country. So, that is the best tie to have the, you know, translations for my country. So, right now, you can see that, you know, right now, right now, so, we are getting the, you know, the unity, the biggest Unity, we have never, you know, being scared of a unity hearing, you know, the NFR right now. So, in the national unity government, the CRP, H, and national unity consultants, you know, common council, you know, this is, you know, very, you know, comprehensive, and we have a lot of different, you know, backgrounds, we all, you know, the new city, all respect, it's the, you know, the combined the, our, you know, collective leadership to set up the quality of leadership. In the past, we didn't have such kind of the quality of leadership right now. We have very huge caliber of leadership, and it is really works. So, that's why I can see that, you know, the our people are right now to stuff, you know, the freedom and democracy.
Host 1:37:02
Sure, right. And you were physically around in 1988, for that whole uprising and, and protest movement and release just after 2007. So you've personally witnessed these different attempts at being able to unseat the military before you in your response, just now, you already got it, some of my question, which is I was going to ask, How is this? How do you find 2021 22 different from 8890? Oh, 708. And you've already referenced some of that. And being that there's more unity than you've ever seen, there's more of a hunger and a cry for for people seeing themselves, which is kind of a definition of maturity, we want democracy and we're ready for it, there's really no greater way than then someone can self determine what kind of system they want to live under, aside from these comments, you've already made how else because you've had a front row seat, and you've been personally involved in these previous uprisings and protest movements? What other ways are you finding the current revolution different than the previous to
Linn Thant 1:38:10
this is totally different. You know, the, the most, you know, the prominence the different is theater technology. In 1988, you know, the, we didn't have the digital, you know, digital devices, we didn't have the mobile phone. We didn't have the, you know, the open, you know, independent media groups. It was, you know, just only stayed media. And we had just only, you know, remember, I remember just some of the, you know, radios we in all India, BBC, and that's all, you know, without, you know, you know, RFA at the time, in 1988. During the our revolution, but in 2011 There are so many it defies is an international, you know, you know, community has the very, very, you know, easily to knew about what's happening in Myanmar, you know, timely, in 1988, you know, international community didn't know about what's happening. So, it will see, you know, biggest difference between the two revolutions and the another thing is, you know, the, in the past in 2000, you know, in 1988 the military leaders was so clever to deal with, you know, international communities and also local political parties and the, you know, ethnic groups. But right now, the or Mr. May online. He is not clever to deal with the International communities and he is not clever to deal with, you know, local political parties and also, you know, ethnic groups. That's why, you know, you know, we we found out that, you know, the, you know, the difference between the two revolution, you know, another thing is cannot be our people enforcement in 1988 or many of the people involved in the inorder collusion after the military coup A few weeks later, the peoples you know, the peoples were, you know, trying to survive the asylum and the cooldown and be involved in the, you know, the military or you know, set up the, you know, the some circumstances, but right now, in 2021 and 2022 the people involved in the revolution and still now, over one year, they are still resisting against military rule, it is huge, you know, difference between the, you know, to revolution and another thing is, you know, the ethnic armed groups and this is, you know, in the past ethnic armed groups, you know, their position and you know, current position is totally different. And the, the last thing is that, because, you know, different in 1988 Only our students had BSDF, you know, was formed as the Hindle group. But in 2021, in much local PDS, were formed by the SF these formats, you know, how to fight against the military Haunter military dictatorship in Myanmar, they know the language of the, you know, because me online and the military leaders, the the language is, this is the language we have to fight games with the you know, arms resistance be decided, the people decided they own they knew about the, you know, self defense rights, they did the form it this biggest, you know, the difference between the two revolution, right now, we have the, you know, 1000s and 1000s of, you know, people Defense Forces members in the past in 2088, and 98, we have, I remember that already, you know, 50 1000s But right now, 1000s, of 1000s of people defense forces, Anders So, what
Host 1:43:08
do you think? So, with that, what do you think it will take to win you reference how this has been going on for more than a year, and there's been more solidarity and more courage and sacrifice than you've ever seen? Probably since the 62. Coup? What? And yet, it's, it's it's still kind of stuck in some way. What do you think it's gonna take to win and get over that hump and be successful?
Linn Thant 1:43:37
Right now, the, you know, you know, we are winning, we can say, over 67% of the, you know, our areas controlled by how help ETF and the ethnic armed groups on crown right now, in many cities, and villages, we can set up the, you know, primary schools, middle schools, and high schools and hospitals and the, you know, town administrative bodies, village administrative bodies, we set it up so, we our lack of, you know, the enough weapons, but we're still trying to find out the best way to feel the you know, necessary fulfillment call the you know, local PDF, and the PDF and other ethnic groups on Growing Your winning on ground, we are winning, you see this, you know, the over 90% of the, you know, local, you know, the very, you know, quarters and the you know, villages administrative bodies you know, are not controlled by the military. Over 90% the military can set it up the ministry can, you know, appoint just only seven or 8% of the country, it is may or may be though, and the wrangles some places other places they cannot control. Till now, they cannot control it. On the other hand, you see that, you know. So now peaceful protesting against the military rule. And Myanmar is still going on over the, you know, 400,000, nearly 500,000 CPMs still resisting against the military rule. This is the most peaceful demonstrations in Myanmar. And, you know, I'm sure that you know, the in the you know, on the on the wall, across the wall, there is no other you know, CDM movement, like Myanmar, Myanmar, Sri, you know, CDM A movement is the biggest and the most peaceful, you know, you know, peaceful movement, still, you know, they are still resisting Vietnam difficulties to survive. Still, they believe it. They know it, we have to fight to end the military dictatorship in our country. That's why our people decided still over one year, it is so long for them, but they're still resisting. That's why, you know, I can see that, you know, our revolution must, you know, prevail? It is a very simple message.
Host 1:47:05
Sure, right. And you're describing this unbelievable sacrifice and courage and commitment on the part of the Burmese people to do whatever it takes to win this revolution and gain back their human rights, their dignity, their freedom, everything else, and they've really been carrying this on almost independently with very, very minimal support from those outside the country. You're looking at it from within the movement and seeing how much has been given there really, it would really be hard to ask for much more on the part of the people who have lived under these conditions for so long and are continuing to fight against this regime. But looking at it from outside from, from foreign allies from the international community from those wishing to support in whatever way from bodies and and organizations what what, what kinds of support would be used for useful or valuable from the international community or from allies to the cause and to helping to win the revolution?
Linn Thant 1:48:13
Yes, you know, honestly, I can compare with the Ukraine right now in the Ukraine is getting a lot of the Indonesian air you know, AIDS especially military aids, largest AIDS, we need it, we need it such that the you know, the military you know, the logistics and the you know, technology and, you know, Indonesian economy community should know about you know, the Ukraine crisis and Nimmer crisis is a very similar male light, he calls you know, the green lights from the Russia a few years ago, people are saying that you know, be China is the biggest problem for Myanmar. But we are saying no, China's not biggest problem from Myanmar. Especially, we pointed out the Russia the Burmese military and ratio tie was very, very closely for for the military, you know, attempts to kill one of the Russian generals, the visitor to Navy door and B be met he met with the mail like only two person with the other assistants. After a few weeks later, may online he did. You know, identical. You see right now, the you know, Vladimir Putin and the mayor wine are doing the same thing Same atrocities against the civilians. The same situation. Russian is trying to get the proxy government in Asian Pacific region the Russian never, you know, think of the you know, other international civilized countries interest. They just think of the only the only interest in Russia there's 1000s At least, you know, hundreds of the you know, the Burmese military officer they study in you know, Russia since you know two decades ago many Russian trains the UN offices, a surgeon in Myanmar army and every sectors but the international community they don't know about you know, this such kind of this, you know, scenario. The Burmese military group is very kinetic with the Russia. Burmese military is getting military, you know, weapons technology from Russia and China and Belarus Indonesian a community making sanctions and embargoes arms embargoes to Nima bucks military. Nima military is getting weapons from Russia, and mimma and the China we have our n ug government and now gets the military weapons, even we cannot buy it because that the arms embargo United States, European Union countries right now they are supported to the UK, physically be a semi mizos The semi military, you know, devices. They're sending, you know, the aircraft. They're sending a lot of you know, the, you know, bombs and launchers and things to the Ukraine. It means that, you know, they are defeating the, you know, supporting the not you Cray that they should, you know, separate to the premise people as well, especially, you know, our, you know, NUJ government, we our government is responsible to protect the civil means our citizens, our residents, the military, they are, you know, attacking its own civilians, the lack of the, you know, the duties, the lack of, you know, responsible now, we are energy is responsible to protect our people, our citizens, why international communities wait and see for the people of Myanmar to be safe every day,
Host 1:53:21
what's your own answer to that question, why why do you think it is that they are not providing support not not even support, as you say, of sending their own resources or people themselves but simply allowing the defense forces in the in UG to be able to purchase and fair market, the kinds of materials that can protect themselves and protect others from crimes against humanity and possible genocide? Why? Why do you think the international organizations in the Western countries including the United States, are continuing to block this and not allow this kind of access?
Linn Thant 1:54:03
I think they can no, the or they cannot, you know, they cannot, you know, support study, you know, especially in know, the, you know, revolutions in Asian Pacific region, because especially the are afraid of the something China or the, you know, some other you know, Russia and some other you know, diverse country, I think so. But he after the after the, you know, the Russian aggressions on the Ukraine, the are you know, briefly then before, I hope so.
Host 1:54:43
So, do you have any idea what it would take for them to reverse their decisions and allow some kind of access to the new gene PDFs?
Linn Thant 1:54:52
I hope that you know, it is a very optimistic you know, you know, the right now be a brave to support the military, you know, differences in the, you know, physical supports the other country, but the situation is, you know, the Ukraine institution in Myanmar is very similar, they understand it. And so, I hope that in the near future, they can understand that they can support to the, you know, energy and to PTF because, you know, our people still resisting the military with any possible means. So that, you know, the military cannot control the country, they knew it, we only determined to find the, you know, the military operations until we achieve our goal, they know it, this is exactly you know, why we are here, why all, you know, share the solidarity belief in you know, that, you know, that is the last chance to uproot the treaty ship in our country, then with international community, they know it, what we, you know, exactly, you know, we are, you know, sharing our solidarity, you know, this is the, you know, the peak of the, you know, our unity car, you know, time. So, we assure that, you know, if we get, you know, the any, you know, possible, you know, physical support from international communities, we can, it will be the, you know, the, I'm sure it must be the game changer. Right now, in the, you know, the Ukraine, if the Putin failed, and then, you know, it will affect to the, you know, Burma as well, right now on the Burma cannot get, you know, the military supports from the Russia, because of, you know, the regressions on the, you know, invasions, the Ukraine, and the international community must do against, you know, the May online and military as well, like Putin and the Myanmar has to be, you know, get has to get, you know, the like Ukraine. So, then we are, you know, civilized, you know, countries and civil owes wall will, you know, prevail, you know, to fight against the de rose countries, that is a very important time, that is the time to, you know, support to this time to up united to support the not only Ukraine, but also the EMR as well.
Host 1:57:09
Right, so you're describing more of the general overarching international scene and context, I'm wondering about you personally, and as far as you are able to share, not divulging any confidential information. What can you share about what your position is right now in relationship with n ug, and what tasks you're carrying on as well as what if any kind of recognition you have from the Czech Republic while you're there in that capacity?
Linn Thant 1:57:40
Right now, in the in the last year, since, you know, the April 24, I was appointed as a representative for the Czech Republic. So, but, but I'm working for not only for the Czech Republic, but also to some other European countries as well. I'm dealing with the countries you know, the the government's and the parliaments and other political you know, higher offices to have the recommendation of the national unity government as the legitimate government of the Myanmar. So, my position is stiff, that is the my position. So here in Czech Republic, you know, the first country of, you know, the very actively supported in Myanmar is the Czech Republic. You see that it after the few weeks later, the Czech president, he issued his two statements to the President, Mr. Women and the, you know, our stay counselor to also Suchi particular public prime, you know, the President, Mrs. Miller Seaman, she shows, you know, solidarity with the President and Dawson City while they were arrested. It was the first country around the war. And second, after I was, you know, appointed by the you know, as an officer for the Czech Republic, Deputy Minister of the Foreign Affairs mess, imagine blood clock, you know, issued statements from me and to appreciate and welcome and to cooperate for the future of the two countries relationship to be stronger and stronger. That is my status. So I am you know, representative and I'm working for the UN routine and to have the recommendations of the N ug to have disapproves to humanitarian aids for the people in them are in need. Across boarded through the new G. So I'm working on it
Host 1:59:59
I see And we definitely wish you every success with what you're doing and with those tasks, and I personally know how hard you've been working over this past year, how many initiatives you've undertaken, and I know how busy your day is how many meetings you have, so to take time out of all those other tasks to talk with us, and to get your voice out there for more people, I, I think you have so much to share and value, I just really thank you for taking the time to sit with us today, and especially in spite of everything else, you're managing and doing.
Linn Thant 2:00:35
Yeah, I would like to mention, you know, to your audience, that, you know, please international communities recognize the national unity government, as you know, the letter to me, government of the Myanmar and brand, the, you know, military, Burmese military as a tourist group. The two I would like to ask for the, you know, agencies in their communities to suppose, you know, physically to the people of Myanmar, and the national unity government. And to support and to help, the people will know, my needs across border assistance, through the mission was unity government, and educational and the, you know, medical included. And if you support to the, you know, the people mind and beauty and the our revolution will will in a few months. And then the international community can be proud of, you know, the Myanmar is one of the successful country in the year near future. Yeah, we need Indonesian communities, you know, supports are involved.
Host 2:01:55
Yeah, I agree. I think that it's really just a step away from the defining blow, but it that that step could be long and drawn out and bloody if the Burmese are continued to be isolated and alone and in the sacrifices they're making. If with a little bit of support, they could be close to a knockout blow. And this strategically located country geographically speaking, what could be could turn a page of democracy and human rights as well as have unity and federalism of the different groups, and really chart potentially a new way forward, that we haven't seen before. And that is really following the, these values that are so promoted by the West, and it could really be something beautiful. That's all hypothetical, because of course, they need that support to get there. But we see the willingness we see the hunger, we see the sacrifice of people who want to live under a better system. And we also see among the Bomar Buddhists their own understanding of that, that they were not exactly correct in the way. They saw what the military was doing before and the way that the ethnic peoples were being harmed. And that they don't want this to continue in their country, we've seen expressions of guilt and apologies and contrition. And so there really is this potential of moving forward. But just that little bit of help. And you know, we really hope that somehow the people of Myanmar will get that because they've certainly more than shown how hungry they are for it. Thank you so much for joining us here today and having this conversation I've learned so much and you have offered so much to our listeners as well.
Linn Thant 2:03:49
I also thank you for your you know, giving me Florence for your artists. They thank you so much for your contribution as well as I really appreciate your work done. And I really appreciate your you know, especially your Buddhism thoughts. I love it so much. Thank you so much. Nothing can stop us now.
Host 2:04:27
We will find the most tragic aspects of the current crisis in Myanmar is how isolated Burmese protesters feel, and in fact are thankfully, through a nonprofit organization better Burma, were able to ensure that all your donations successfully reach their intended target on the ground. So if you found yourself moved by today's discussion and want to do what you can to help, please consider giving to our donation fund which is 100% directed towards supporting the democracy movement. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in me and Who are being impacted by the military cool. We welcome your contribution, any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions at those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by our nonprofit mission that or Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's b e t t e r b u r ma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account you can also visit either the Insight Myanmar better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support many though gotta grab costs. Now. We've taught you love in the YES man just