Transcript: Episode #97: Beth Upton

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Beth Upton, which appeared on March 31, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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00:00

Know that I know why you daddy got me that if we have I knew the girl may not have my eyes on me. I know that my dad was that it reminded me we generally have to have the miasma.

Host  00:24

Many longtime listeners know that our podcast platform was initially focused on interviews about the spiritual paths that Myanmar offers to meditators and monastics, but when the coup hit, we couldn't in good conscience continue to tell those stories with many monastic sites on fire are occupied by soldiers and the Burmese people living under the military's Reign of Terror. So we expanded our mission to cover a wider range of post coup Myanmar stories. Still, some guests have a unique insight into the intersection of the spiritual with the worldly allowing a deeper understanding of both these planes. Today's guests fit squarely into that category as you

00:59

assume here am I as bad I know why?

01:35

Day a good day

Host  02:16

I'm really pleased to be joined by Beth Upton on this special episode of insight Myanmar podcast. Beth was a Buddhist nun in Myanmar for many years under Paul Oksana, and has disrobed and now his teaching meditation around the world. This is a bit of a special episode, because the interview that you're about to hear was recorded about two years ago. So this is an interview that was recorded before the coup took place, about the spiritual journey, and practice and nun hood of Beth. And once the coup took place, we sat on this interview and many other views with it. Because at that time, we didn't feel comfortable as a platform, exploring the spiritual journeys of different practitioners as the country came to be under fire. And we felt there were much more compelling stories with urgency that we needed to tell. It's now been a year since the coup was happened and ongoing. And we realize the importance of being able to balance out some of the heavier, more painful interviews we've been having. With also taking a chance to reflect on Myanmar and Burmese society not just as a place where some things might be failing, or some things might be in trouble. But as a country with extraordinary graciousness, and teaching and giving, and generosity. And the interview you're about to hear goes into through the lens of the spiritual journey of one practitioner. We do learn about some of the wonderful parts of the society, especially the Buddhist society, and how one person of many people but we hear one person story has developed and benefited from this prolonged experience in the country. And so we think that this is now a time that we can bring this out and honor it and learn from the journey that she's been on. However, before we get to that interview, I should mention this interview from two years ago was recorded in Yangon face to face before COVID before the coup between Beth and myself. Before we get to that interview. I'm really happy to be joined by Beth now. And we want to talk a little before we enter that interview, because things have changed so much and we want to discuss a little where we sit down? So Beth, I know you're in the middle of a very busy teaching schedule, traveling and instructing meditators around the world. And you've made a pocket of time for us to be able to connect to introduce the formal interview that follows. So thank you so much for taking the time to join us here. And as a prelude to the longer interview that follows.

Beth Upton  05:27

Yeah, no, thank you for making the time. For me. It feels like a lifetime ago that we were lost speaking there in Yangon. So much has, has changed since then. And one of the things that strikes me the more that I, you know, that I travel and teach, and I meet other teachers, that's so much of the Western, especially Theravada meditation world is really ingratitude to the Burmese people. Certainly, without the Burmese people, there would be no, me here, traveling around teaching meditation, but I also see so many of the other teachers that have brought the Dharma to the West have trained in Myanmar and been supported by the, by the devotion and the hard work and the, and the generosity of the, of the Burmese people. And so, since the coup, I think it's really I already felt a debt of gratitude. And that feeling is only heightened by by seeing their flight for the moment.

Host  07:02

Right, it can take us back to when the coup first developed and then has, we've been following the news remotely and learning about very familiar people in very familiar places, now caught in very unfamiliar and extremely traumatic circumstances, you're so connected to the people and the culture you have been fed, closed and taught by the segment of the society is taking care of you for so long. And they are now in so much trouble. And every day has been a struggle for survival, in a sense, being remote from this happening, and yet having so much gratitude for the experiences you went through, can you tell us a bit about how you followed it and how you've held it in your heart?

Beth Upton  07:55

Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if anybody else had this feeling. But when I first heard of the coup, and naively I thought it would be short lived. I sort of thought, oh, how ridiculous. You know, there's no way the Burmese people will have that. And I think I got the sense I'm not how to show how to source is from watching the news that when the Burmese people were first rallying and protesting, they also kind of thought, you know, we'll stand up for ourselves and, like, the hope in their hearts that they now had democracy was strong, you know. And so at first I thought, it will be a blip. And, you know, we'll make some noise about it, they will protest, maybe the international media will do something. And you know, we'll go back to normal. And as that didn't happen, it's been quite a slow and gradual process of me being like, oh, you know, this is bad. And then oh, this is like, even worse than I thought, Oh, wow. This is like terrible. Having all of my foreign friends who were in Myanmar, not Burmese nationals, having them one by one leave, and then having my Burmese friends obviously speaking to them and hearing horrific stories, and yeah, I think the feeling is one of disbelief still a little bit and disempowerment and feeling like the volition is there to do a lot. And at the same time, there isn't the confidence that I can make a meaning like I can make a meaningful difference to To the situation. It seems like such a massive issue. So I want to being disempowered. And one of solidarity as well of wanting to keep the issue current, keep it present, keep it in people's minds, not let the Burmese people be forgotten. Let them know that I'm here. Let them know that I'm, you know, I'm practicing the Dharma, I'm doing the best with the gifts that they gave me. If this is all I can do, then that's what I'll do to the best of my ability.

Host  10:37

You talked a bit before about this debt of gratitude that you have that you carry with you. Can you expand a bit on what that debt of gratitude looks like and feels like and what shape it's taken since you've left me in Mar and started your teaching career?

Beth Upton  10:59

Yeah, the feeling is like, I wish I could do more with the wealth that they've given me. I was given so much, I mean, go one, I was given a home. And I was, you know, fed and clothed, and all of those practical things, off the backs of the Burmese people who were going work for money. But more than that, I was, I was loved. And I was accepted in a way that I hadn't known before. And I mean, even greater than that, I was taught the Dharma, which is really been, by far the greatest gift of my life and incomparable gift that I was given that a priceless. And so it feels like, you know, the only way to honor that is to keep on passing on that gift. It's just to create as much beauty in the world as I can with that gift that I was given. And so really, that that memory of the Burmese people that that memory of my time in Burma, the wealth of love and support that I was given, is my motivator for doing the best I can with the Dharma that I have, and passing it on to the best of my ability, keeping that light alive in the world. And then also letting people know that I can only do this because of them. If you're grateful to me, be grateful to them, if you're grateful to them, support them.

Host  12:45

That's really beautiful. You lived in Myanmar for a long time. And unlike other foreigners who might have lived in something of a foreign enclave, you were a Buddhist nun, and Nunnery monastery meditation center that was really living much more close to the ground and to local communities. And so because of that, you definitely experienced a number you were within Burmese culture and customs and people. And so I'm wondering, from the experience you had of living in local communities and interacting with so many Burmese monastics lay supporters, teachers, etc. What are some of the lessons from Burmese society that have really touched your heart and you carry with you today?

Beth Upton  13:31

So the main one is the Dharma and the Four Noble Truths, this deep understanding in the culture, first of all of the first noble truth that life is suffering, which doesn't sound like a happy truth, but it makes people humble, and realistic, and resilient, and open hearted and loving in the face of the inevitable sufferings of life. And it was very refreshing, that there wasn't sort of all of this blaming and self hating, and analysis and all of these things that we can do in the West when suffering arises like who did something wrong. And there there's just like an acceptance and open heartedness towards life in its fullness. And then a deep understanding of what is causing the suffering on this responsibility for our own mental impurities. The faith that there's an end of suffering faith in the Noble Eightfold Path, which really sort of keeps people on the same page and motivated and, and practicing. I think that was really amazing. Also living I guess all of the other aspects of Burmese community that touched me were born of that are born of the Four Noble Truths. The the one that really sticks with me is living in a diner culture. So just living in a society in a community where the whole place ran on generosity rather than on greed. And it's just such a freeing, beautiful way to operate in the world. And it's something that I've carried with me even back into the thick of Western capitalism. I've maintained this form of, of donner. And I consider it to be like one of the most beautiful things in my life. And the Burmese people taught me that the humility and the kindness of the Burmese people, their generosity, that joy, the modesty, so many things that really touched me deeply. And I reflect on often and again, it that Yeah, it makes me feel in some ways. Like, I can't do enough, but it also motivates me to be the best I can be.

Host  16:08

That's, that's, that's really beautiful. Thank you for that. I think it's interesting looking at the current crisis, from the perspective of the practitioner community, and there have been many who have been extremely engaged, supportive, giving involved in so many ways. And yet, there's also a dynamic where, among some practitioners, maybe more Western practitioners, that the practice is an internal thing divorced from the messiness of reality, taking a timeout from the ongoing problems that you find in any society anywhere that you're not trying to fix or resolve things outside. But you're really just focused on your own internal practice and well being and balance and liberation from suffering. And so that mindset can lead some towards what's been known as spiritual bypassing where one is using their own spiritual practice to bypass and avoid the messiness of the world and the problems of society. What would you say, as a teacher, as someone who's now instructed so many meditators? through so many things? What would you say is the role or a guidance, you might be able to give to a meditator for how they can balance their own internal practice with a perhaps, outward concern or social engagement towards greater understanding of what's happening around them?

Beth Upton  17:47

Yeah, it's a really good question. And I also think it is a very personal question. And each of us are at our own stages on our Dharma path. And I think we really need to be careful not to be judging each other throwing shoulds around. You know, sometimes inaction is better than unwise action. And if we're at a stage, in our practice, maybe we are where we are full of a lot of anger, or a lot of judgment or other such forces. Acting from that place might not make things better. But then there is also a time when our meditation is a little bit more stable, our minds are more clear and calm, we've established a little bit more wisdom. And there can be a tendency amongst meditators to get a bit narrow in the practice, perhaps, and to be sort delighting in that peace of mind. And not extending themselves to engage in things that might feel messy or beyond their ability. It's very understandable. I think, that tendency in meditators. And so rather than sort of offering judgment of that instead, like I'd offer encouragement to just stretch the heart a little, just just broaden the perception a little when we build resilience now practice to hold and embrace situations that are complex are triggering. When we apply our wisdom, our love, even there, we make ourselves spiritually stronger. So for some people it might feel maybe like A weight that is too heavy for them to lift. And in that case, okay, you know, we, we also end suffering one person at a time, but for some people, they might feel like, yeah, you know, maybe this is a weight that I can lift, it might be a stretch, but maybe I can engage with this with wisdom. Maybe I do have something helpful to contribute. In that case, you know, please engage. And I also think, what people that I've spoken to, would really appreciate what I have also felt is like, someone tell me the things I can do. Because ending a military coup isn't what your average Yogi feels empowered to do. And it's a weight that's too heavy to lift. And so I think we need to work together to to promote steps that people feel empowered to take. And I think when that's made available to people, then it feels much more realistic and appealing for people to engage. And I think you know more about that than I do. So maybe you want to say a few words about Sure.

Host  21:20

Sure. Yeah. So obviously, the one of the easiest ways to support is financial contribution. And, of course, listeners know that we have formed our own nonprofit in the wake of the coup called Better Burma. At the end of this podcast, or on our website, you can see the options of how one can give donations really through any medium. And all of these donations go towards humanitarian purposes. We currently have a, what we're calling a meditator gratitude campaign, where donations earmarked for this cause will go specifically to various monasteries and nunneries. In in great need and that are suffering and these monastic institutions have really stepped up to play a role in housing IDPs, and refugees, people fleeing they're building their their villages being burned, and monasteries are taking care of them, even monasteries, not taking care of these displaced persons are having their own shortages of food and other necessities. Our nonprofit mission goes to groups of all ethnicities, religions, geography, etc. So a general donation will go towards our overall missions, humanitarian missions on the ground. Those donations earmarked for the grant, the meditators gratitude campaign will go specifically for the monastic purposes. So of course, there's financial contribution. But there's so much more than this. And there's so many ways that of if one opens the heart and turns towards the direction of contribution, there are so many things that one can do within the limitations or boundaries of what's available. One of the one I would ask my Burmese friends in the early stages of the coup, how we could help. I was personally surprised by an answer I kept getting simply because it seemed too easy. The answer was for many Burmese on the ground, and the thick of it was just show that you care, just talk to us and let us know we're not alone. And I couldn't believe that really meant something because it seems from our standpoint, it seems so easy to reach out to a friend or make a post or show some kind of sign of support. But for those in the country, this means so much more than you could put into words they they feel so alone, they feel so isolated by the world they feel their backs are against the wall, as you say, as a yogi, where do you begin with overturning a, a professional military coup? You can imagine what those guys are feeling on the ground that are actually faced with this. And for those that are resisting non violently in any number of ways. They the mental trauma and fear. People are telling me repeatedly they live under fear every single day. This has been a year every single day. They are afraid every moment they're afraid that this could be their unlucky moment when confronted by a soldier. And so aside from financial contributions, simply writing a message of support to a Burmese friend letting them know that you care that you're a safe person that you're there to listen you're you're there to support them to talk to them. I have been told by so many people how much that means to them and how that gives them gas for the next day or two. To continue what they're doing no they're not alone, just knowing they're not alone, because they feel so isolated right now. And they are, by the way, they, by and large, the international community has responded. So, simply reaching out to people personally that you know, there or making posts on social media, not once but several times consistently ongoing as this last, just letting them know that they are in your heart, they're in your support, they're in your meta that this is still happening, whether or not the News is reporting it. And that you care that that means an awful lot. And it's so easy and so simple to do, and doesn't take any money. So that's another very valuable thing that one can do. Those would be my first two recommendations of, of how easy it is for one to show up and to, to simply to be present and to to bear witness bearing witness. Another way one can do that is by being informed listening to these podcasts, listening to other podcasts, reading news, simply by understanding and forming oneself what's going on. That's a way of being involved. And I suppose if some someone wants to be involved to a further extent, there are always ways to volunteer, they're there through our organization, through through other nonprofits, there are many ways to offer one services, no matter what they are, no matter how limited they are, every little bit counts every little bit builds to a momentum. And when I first started this, in February, I felt the same way you did, I had no idea how someone as small as me and unimportant could possibly do anything that would, that would impact a world event taking place. And, and not to say that you're the platform has. But to say that once one takes those steps, once one takes a few actions here, there, you do feel a little less small, you do feel there's a momentum that starts to build and you realize, oh, I can do this, oh, I can also do that, oh, I can, this thing also came up. And you realize you're not helpless. You're not as small as you think you do have options. And right now the military is trying to make the world forget that this happen. This is the old playbook of the tatmadaw look the other way, nothing to see here. We're on the roadmap to democracy. So the more that the Burmese people in the country, and the more that the allies outside the country, don't fall into that trap, and don't look away, don't get bored, don't be indifferent, don't feel helpless. But continue that momentum in whatever way is possible through volunteering through support through financial contributions through awareness bearing witness, whatever that is by not turning away from the Dukkha. And living with it is a way to not make it go away. And every little ounce of that effort from everyone everywhere is contributing to the momentum and the support of the people. And this is a war of attrition. And everyone has said this, it's not just attrition, of medical supplies, or finances or material or things like that. It's also an attrition, of spirit of morale. And so the more that people in their own individual way, in their own small way, can increase the morale of those that are in the struggle, that it might not feel like a lot, but that momentum is going to go on the side of the people. And that's going to mean something and they're not going to feel as alone. So those would be my thoughts on that area.

Beth Upton  28:44

Yeah, that's so helpful to thank you so much for that. I think people will find that really, really helpful.

Host  28:55

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's, that's why we're here we're showing up or just showing up. Just to ask you as well, I know you spent so much time and po can in other monasteries and nunneries while you were there, have you been able to be in touch with anyone at the monastic sites you were at? And just see how they're doing, how they're coping how their lives have been impacted by this.

Beth Upton  29:21

I have that really sporadically. Like communication channels have been really difficult and sometimes able to communicate in one way through another way. A lot of the Burmese friends that I've contacted haven't replied through the channels that are usually contact them. And but when I have been able to speak to Burmese friends or you know, non Burmese friends in Burma largely they've echoed what what you said, Joe, that they just, they just want to know that we that we care, and that we're still talking about it and that they haven't been forgotten. I think one other thing is that inside the monasteries and meditation centers, what I'm hearing is, they're really just trying their best to maintain business as usual. They're really focused on the Dharma still. And you know, doing the practice doing the meditation. And I personally don't see that as a form of bypass, I see it as a form of wisdom and continuing to hold something really bright and beautiful in the myths of like chaos and darkness. And I've really got a lot of respect to the teachers there, that they're holding that.

Host  30:52

That's great. That's great. Well, thank you so much for joining us with this. I want to welcome our listeners to continue with us here the full length interview coming up right after this of your spiritual journey and biography in Myanmar, how you developed as a nun how you got to where you are now and listen to it holding some of these things in mind, from our Prelude. And I hope everyone enjoys what follows. And before we segue into our talk from two years ago, are there any last words you'd like to leave the listeners with?

31:30

Oh,

Beth Upton  31:31

yeah. I don't think there's anything else you know, I think, I think you covered it. And I'm especially grateful for the suggestions that you may draw, and I hope that people take you up on some of those.

Host  31:45

Okay, great. Well, let's get into the interview

32:04

Hey, guys, v. Wade.

Beth Upton  32:35

I was I arrived in 2008. And ordained that year as well. And I was in Myanmar five years without leaving. Almost all of that time I was at Park Mall. And then in 2013, Park zero was starting a place in California. And so he asked me to accompany him there. And so that's when I left MEMA. And I ended up not state, I stayed in California only for one summer. And so the second half of my ordained life, I was more freestyling. I, I come back to me, and sometimes I did a few long retreats here. But more than half of the time I was away. A lot of the time I was in Spain, where I was, I was leading a little community.

Host  33:23

So what brought you to Myanmar initially?

Beth Upton  33:27

Oh, well, I had been working in international development. And I had a job in Sri Lanka was like 2324. And I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life, I was becoming disillusioned with the world of international development. And Sri Lanka is a Buddhist country. So I was getting a flavor of meditation. And it grabbed my interest is something I wanted to do more of. So after that, just by word of mouth, really, I started looking for places where I could stay and meditate long term and started off in Thailand, but nowhere really seemed suitable. Somebody mentioned to me park park, and then by the time I got down there, I was so done with moving around. I probably would have stayed a while, however bad it had been. And when I got there, I met the teachers specifically, I met Eartha and they and I thought, wow, like, you know, I'll, you know, I'll stay and listen to what you've got to say. And I ended up saying five years.

Host  34:36

Right? Yeah. What were your early impressions of Beamer?

Beth Upton  34:42

I loved it. I found it very welcoming. And very hospitable. I was young, no, I was only 25. So I had like, a lot of flexibility in me to adjust to culture and I'd already been living abroad a lot So I think I adapted to it quite easily the most difficult thing there more than me was the food. But I mean, it's a really small thing to complain about in comparison to everything else. And I was so overjoyed with the Dharma, more than winning the lottery. I couldn't believe I land on these conditions where all of these questions I'd held in my heart were being answered. And I had all day every day to practice meditation, and they were even going to feed me and love me. It was like, incredible at that time. So that's my main memories. And I didn't leave the monastery much. So my understanding of Burmese, like broader Burmese culture built really slowly over time. Yeah, I was just really, for a couple of years now, like focusing on my breath.

Host  36:02

Right, right, right. Going back to your early beginnings, so you're from England? And what about the family you grew up in and religious background and early spirituality,

Beth Upton  36:16

and no religious background unless you count being in the Girl Guides, but I only realized much later that was like, a religious being in the way Girl Guides, you know, the Boy Scouts, okay. Only like much later I realized, Oh, right. That's what they're doing. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, no religious upbringing. My parents split. And my mom remarried, a guy who had previously stayed with Osho was sort of influenced by that type of spirituality. Which as like a young teen, honestly did a lot to damage my perceptions of anything that might be called

Host  37:04

spiritual. So

Beth Upton  37:07

it's, it wasn't presented to me in a credible way. So given that, I mean, small miracle that I ended up becoming a nun, really. But the fortunate side was that I had a mum who had an open mind and an interest in spiritual kind of things. Such as well, maybe meditation, though, she wouldn't have probably thought that it would be taken to the lengths that I took it to. But like, at that time, no, like the, the 90s and your music and, and crystal healing incense sticks, my

Host  37:58

mind opening stuff, right, your books

Beth Upton  38:00

about healing your inner child, you know, that kind of thing.

Host  38:06

Right. Yeah. As, as you grew from childhood, adolescence, early adulthood, did you start having some kind of interest in spirituality or something missing or something greater?

Beth Upton  38:18

So initially, no, because I was in reaction against that they've been presented to me by my mom's husband. Yeah, our lack of credibility at that time in him personally. And so my A levels were in maths, physics, economics. And my degree was in economics, right? And I was like, on a rationality train. But then, through the force of suffering, no. So like, towards the end of my time at university, I was unhappy. I had had my heart broken, I was overworked. I realized I didn't want to be an economist. So at that time, yeah, like the hunger for something else started to come up. But I didn't pursue it seriously. It was just reading books here and there. And a bit of like, use, I did use the word logging. I might have, maybe, yeah, something like that. A bit of like, there's got to be something more than becoming a banker, right. And so when I finished my studies, I worked for a few months in London, and then I left and I left with no plan. Just to go and have a look like what is this something else? Is it there? And where did you go to find that? Spain? Actually, bizarrely, Spain's rescued me a few times and I just rocked on up in Spain with a few words of Spanish and went with the flow. Is that too much of a cliche? Yeah, I was going with the flow. And actually, it was there it was in those few months in Spain where I first stayed. Just volunteering in a little Mahayana Buddhist center first really heard the Four Noble Truths presented in a way that touched my heart. The Lama there was speaking about compassion, I had a sense of wow, like, thank you that this is really true. But I remember at that time, they told me if I wanted to be Buddhist, I had to keep the five precepts. And the last one is no intoxicant of the five and I was like, Oh, really? Maybe, maybe not yet. Maybe not yet. Yeah. And so it took me another few years, another two or three years to really disenchant and get life out of my system enough that I could settle and just practice for

Host  40:58

a stretch. Yeah. Well, you're pretty young then early 20s. Right.

Beth Upton  41:01

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And that was like a wild to see. Yeah. And a lot of exploration to do before I settled, but all considered, I mean, that phase was pretty quick. Within a couple of years, I was done. And very happy by the time I reached park just to stay in one place. And at that time, I had the feeling maybe I'll never leave.

Host  41:23

So did you when you came to me and Mar did. Did you come to park directly? Or did you explore something in Myanmar first and get lead there?

Beth Upton  41:33

No, I went straight down to put up. I can't remember who it was now who had recommended to me park, but I just headed straight on down there.

Host  41:43

Right? Yeah. Can you say a little basic background information about who Powerex ADA is what his teaching is for someone that would be totally unfamiliar with it? Yeah,

Beth Upton  41:52

I just actually I just did an interview with Park said or when I saw him a few weeks ago, all right. And I asked him almost exactly that question. And he told me he teaches the Four Noble Truths, which is very frustrated.

Host  42:10

So give me something.

Beth Upton  42:13

So part Hawkshead, or oh, what to say, really, really an incredible monk. Incredible. So he has a mind that delights in detail, and precision, an incredible intellect and an incredible depth. And because He delights in all of that detail, it's his natural inclination. So he likes to teach meditation in a way that can see the mind and body or materiality and mentality at an extremely subtle level. And that's, to my mind, that's where his passion is. So, and also that like the cause and effect relationships between the mind and the matter. That's where his passion really is. But in order to do that analysis, the meditators need a very strong, high level of concentration. So that's what he's become more well known for, I think his teaching concentration, but which is Samadhi, the jhanas. But to him, he sees that only as a tool. I asked Sarah, when I interviewed him, What's the hardest thing about being a CFO? And he looked a little bit frustrated. And he said, sometimes they can't concentrate well. And so for for Parkside, or where he starts to feel enthusiastic towards the students is when they they can concentrate, and he can get on with teaching them this sort of detailed analysis that he really loves to teach. And I'd say the lacking part is on the basic, no, the ones who struggled to concentrate. He's he. Yeah, that frustrates him. So I think there are other methods available, which are more suitable for people who are struggling to develop their concentration.

Host  44:22

So for a student who isn't able to develop and concentration is at how do they encrypt? Do they recognize that and encourage them to try other methods? Or is there just more and more focus on trying harder and harder with the importance of concentration practice?

Beth Upton  44:39

Yeah, I wouldn't say the same No, they don't recommend other methods. Which, you know, it's like, as we were discussing earlier, is one of the shadows of how the Dharma presents in Burma. So everyone is like the king of their method. So, no, he doesn't prefer Other methods. I wouldn't say the emphasis is on trying harder though I could, I can understand why the meditator might hear it like that. But it's more just be patient, keep going. You know, like the faculty, your mental faculties will strengthen gradually. Eventually, it will deepen, which does happen with several meditators who stick with I mean, me, I stuck with it for a couple of years, at least before my concentration deepened other meditators, it can be longer. So we do see those cases where it is a matter of patience. But we also see, I think, meditators who stay sort of like banging their head against a brick wall, really in the name of patients, when another method would be more suitable. One of the things about Park as a community, though, is that it's, it's big. And it's designed for long term practice, because all of this detailed analysis does take time. So there's a really strong sense of community there. So sometimes the meditators who can't deepen their concentration, they're inclined to stay because their friends are there, their home is there. The park culture is, is like their village, it's their tribe. And so we do get meditators who are sort of like chronically stuck on the basic level. Some of them might be really unhappy, but others find their place within the community. And they're, they're sort of happy, they're happy there anyway, they're fulfilled in the Dharma anyway.

Host  46:31

Right? Right. And when you're talking about these concentration practices, these are the jhanas right? Yeah, yes, can you explain a little more about what what the jhanas are,

Beth Upton  46:40

and the jhanas are states of deep concentration. So, they arise when you can maintain focus on a single unchanging object for a long period of time, because the mind that knows that object is wholesome, it leads to an unbroken wholesome mental process, we call that every single mind moment that is arising is wholesome, because of that, the states are very blissful. And that bliss means that we can maintain them for longer. So, the jhanas are states of deep concentration. So, they arise when you maintain unbroken awareness on a single object for a long period of time. Because the mind that knows that object is a wholesome mind, it means is a mind with non greed, non hatred, wisdom, so, the mind that knows that object for a long period of time tends to be very blissful. And that bliss then helps us to maintain our awareness of on the object for longer. So, there are traditions outside of Buddhism that have these Samadhi states, their most mystical traditions, we can find some sort of speaking of them, and because they states are very blissful, the mind with closed eyes is tends to be filled with light. So, they get described in different ways, some traditions would equate them with sort of a union with God or of being their true self or some type of like, oneness or cosmic consciousness, all of that type of language is descriptive of those states of Samadhi. But in the Buddhist tradition, we just we use that Samadhi as a tool, the mind that is able to enter those jhana states is very powerful, very refined, and it can take very subtle objects such as an individual moment of mind or an individual particle of materiality. And so the mind that is focused at that level can more easily understand the in the impermanence, suffering and non self nature of all phenomena.

Host  49:03

As a meditator what's it like experiencing a jhana?

Beth Upton  49:07

Nice. Nice kind of worth the effort. Yeah, I don't know what else to say. It's nice in the opposite way of how craving is nice. So we might also, let me just speak for myself. I I also like chocolate fix effects. I really like figs. And so there's a satisfaction there. When you're craving for a fig and you eat it. You go down to the fig tree and you've got like a perfectly ripe one. There's there's a real satisfaction there. But because all conditioned phenomena are impermanent that only lasts a short time, and then we're left craving again. And then we end up with a problem that happens to me too often in Spain in the summer, where your whole mouth hurts because of having eaten too many fix. So that's the nature of trying to get our gratification through sense pleasures. And so the niceness of Samadhi is in the opposite direction. It's an acknowledgment that craving will never ultimately work, craving in the long term will never ultimately work. And so instead, we choose to adopt and train ourselves to pay attention to any object and arbitrary object, they often we use the breath with a mind of non clinging, non craving. And as the momentum of that gets stronger and stronger, we start to experience a different kind of bliss, which is, it's an unburdening of all of this craving. And the less that we crave, the less attention there is on the five senses. And as we stopped paying attention to the five senses, we realize how much it weighs us down our continual distraction by that, and so that the bliss of jhana is really one of having put down a burdens and tools that that we're accustomed to use them for our happiness. And when we put it down, we realize, oh, wow, this feels better. So, like giving up an addiction to the five senses, giving up an addiction to the act of craving itself. So yeah, it's worth the effort is worth the effort to have that sort of whatever your aspirations are in the Dharma, but to have that as a tool in your toolkit, and an understanding of what is suffering, what are the causes of suffering, very powerful to have that experience of Samadhi,

Host  52:02

right? Is there a danger as you shared the addiction to these five cent stores and you're experiencing something you call very nice? Is there a danger that that addiction can be replaced from one thing to the other, and that that there could be an addiction to these to this supreme bliss and, and joy of jhana.

Beth Upton  52:26

So there, almost definitely there will be some type of attachment to that, Jana, but it will also be a lighter attachment than the attachment to the five senses. Because of the nature of jhana, you've trained your mind in an attack on attaching is that detachment, detachment, right? You're trained you're you're training your mind in detachment, so there's one suitor, please don't ask me which, where I think it's Ananda asks the Buddha about attachment to the eighth jhana. And is that even still a defilement because the eighth jhana is such a detached state. So is attachment to the eighth jhana, even a defilement and the Buddha says, Yes, of course it is. Any attachment is a defilement. But that's the best kind of attachment that you can have. Because what you're attached to is something so fine. So one step at a time, if you've moved from attachment to chocolate or attachment to figs, and now you're attached to the first jhana we can call that progress.

Host  53:31

Right? Yeah, how has the practice of jhanas helped your own development?

Beth Upton  53:45

Well, like I said, say the objects that we're focusing on when we develop Jana are subtle, more subtle than the objects that we take with our eyes and our ears in the in like the normal flow of daily life. So one of the first benefits, I think, is the ability of the mind to be with subtle objects, which is a wonderful skill when you're meditating but also in daily life is like a refinement of perception that happens, an increased sensitivity, which that can take time to learn to manage and increase sensitivity but ultimately, I think it's that's it that's a good thing. I'm grateful for it and increase sort of receptivity again, sorry for my vocabulary is that works fine. Yeah. And then a confidence that is born of Samadhi. It's a confidence I think that is born of any pusilla when we know where we're on a good track, we're good with ourselves. Our CLI is pure. So like that, but maybe magnified a bit more because the power And then the strength that comes to mind is more. So really a sense of like being on a good track, being good with myself and having a refuge as well.

Host  55:12

Right? Some people can develop very quickly in China, some people can struggle and really take a long time and have a lot of difficulty. Do you think this is a necessary track for every meditator on the path? Or is it good for some people and not so much for others?

Beth Upton  55:29

I don't think is necessary. So now, when I'm teaching, I don't teach everybody jhana if they're struggling much, one of the biggest obstacles I see in the mind of Westerners is such a strong habit of investigation. And so their mind can't stay with a single object. Because at the more refined stages, they're too busy investigating, is it jhana? Is it not? And they can't put this down or skeptical mind? Is it possible? Is it not? Can I really, can I not? Is that really my object? Is it not. And this investigating can be very helpful for them if they're practicing Vipassana, but not helpful for them, if they're trying to develop jhana, say some meditators. I won't teach jhana first. But it is really a very helpful tool, really, and so if it's just a question of their patience, or them rebalancing their effort, or increasing their faith first or undoing some bad habits, even if that will take a few years, I'll try to suggest them to do because really, really worth the effort. Not worth them, ending up hating meditation, and this that can happen no. But if they can do really worth the effort, what I find teaching Westerners is sometimes they just haven't been given the right guidance. Oftentimes, they're putting way too much effort, especially meditators who started off in Ganga, their two tents they're trying to do through force. They're not addressing maybe like some wounding that they are holding. So there's a lot in their mind that they're trying to push out with force, so that they can stay with their breath. Sometimes it's just a question of right guidance, bringing in joy and interest and softness.

Host  57:22

And so that with Gianna, that sense of like force and effort and and trying very hard, those are, are those tendencies or guidance that go along well with the practice of jhana? Or will that get you into more trouble?

Beth Upton  57:37

Nine, that'll definitely get you into more.

Host  57:39

Right. Right. That's interesting, because I think people who haven't done jhanas, or maybe you have done have have done concentration for a limited period of time. See it as see it as a, a real effort based practice?

Beth Upton  57:53

No, no, absolutely not. So I think I, I already said a couple of times now. So jhana is, is one long mental process with no greed and no hatred. And so we get there just by putting more beautiful drops in the pot. Every moment of contentment, and love and acceptance of our meditation object, and joy, and happiness with it is is a step in the right direction. And so, too much effort tends to kill our joy. As a first step, no, like, if we try very hard, we won't enjoy it. And if there's things we're suppressing, like willfully suppressing, that's, that's coming from a mind of hatred. If we're very keen on getting there quickly, that's the mind of craving. So all of those things are making us slow.

Host  58:46

Right? In terms of the power system, there's the system, the stages of jhana that the meditator works out, is in other traditions there there might be some kind of intensive concentration practice at the beginning and then that leads to a concentrated mind which is then used for the practice of insight or passion, investigating the reality within in the public method. Once that, once there there is those attainments of different stages of jhana. What is then done with it, how is it then used

Beth Upton  59:18

same Vipassana No, but the level of Vipassana will be much more refined, because that jhana mind is able to see so much more. So having developed jhana the, the park system will start with the discernment of materiality. They actually don't call it even Vipassana. Until the meditator is able to discern the individual types of materiality within one clapper. Clapper Clapper is like one very small particle of materiality. The reason being that technically you can't practice we pass on our own concepts. So whilst you are on the level of the pain in my knee, both pain and knee are a concept And it's true that pain and knee are impermanent in one way. But they're not impermanent in the way of momentarily arising and perishing out of existence. So, at PARC, they will call it Vipassana, when the meditator can start to discern this momentary arising and perishing of materiality mentality. So we'll tend to start with materiality because it's more coarse. And look at all of the different types of materiality in the body, their causes. So some materiality is being produced by mind, either by temperature, somebody nutriments, and by past, volition, volition in past lives. And we'll look at that causality. Look at the different functions of the different types of materiality in the body. So what types of materiality allow us to see for example, how, how and why? What types of materiality allow us to hear what types of materiality allow us to speak and to move? How are those processes working? What the cause and effect there? What type of materiality supports mentality to arise? How did how is the materiality related to the consciousness? How is that causality working? When we've done like a thorough discernment is the word they use of the materiality, then we'll move on to mentality, which again, is not on the level of thoughts flowing in an impermanent way. It's true that mind is impermanent in that way. But it's also impermanent in the way of momentarily arising and perishing away. And so we'll then look at different mind moments, and how they are related to each other. Again, what are their causes, which moments are produced by past actions, which ones by present actions, the different qualities of mind that arise within one moment, which of those qualities are important? The reason that we do all of that analysis is because we want a profound understanding of the truth of impermanence, suffering and non self, especially non self. So most people, everyone I would imagine, can conceive of a self that changes. Like you Jawa are a few years older than the last time I saw you. Or yesterday, I'm, I was happy today, I'm sad. A few hours ago, I was hungry, then I had some of that nice juice that you gave me a name. All right. So our understanding of self can hold the truth of impermanence in that way. There's no challenge to it. But we can't readily conceive of a self that momentarily disappears out of existence. One minute is there the next minute, it's not. And so when we start to see that everything that we are imagining as ourself, actually just keeps, keeps on disappearing. No, it goes somewhere else and comes back, it doesn't exist anymore. We start to understand what the Buddha really meant by non sow.

Host  1:03:14

So all of this understanding at poke is to be gained before prior to the practice of correct

Beth Upton  1:03:22

so so they will call it the past. Now when we start analyzing materiality and mentality at the level that is momentarily arising and passing away at that time, they'll call it nama rupa, protrayed and Yana which is the understanding of materiality and mentality. And then after that, there will be the that they translate as cause apprehending knowledge. And because the causes for that materiality and mentality are so many, and they run over many lives, that knowledge will involve us discern in the past lives, and volitional actions that we've done in the past, their productive effect in this present life. And to actually see like causality, again, like the purpose of that isn't like to show off, it's to make the understanding of non self very deep. So, if we see for example, a string of moments in this present life all arising and passing away, one after the other, we might understand, okay, that they are all non self, but maybe something outside of those moments produced them, or maybe something outside of those moments is controlling them. But when we can see oh, no, this moment arose and perished in this life, with its own set of causes in the past, and the next moment arise and perish with a completely different set of causes. And the next moment arose and perish with a completely different set of causes yet again, it takes the understanding nonself to a whole deeper level. When that understanding nonself is deep, then we this interest in materiality and mentality, we don't want to be with it anymore.

Host  1:05:03

So is looking into one's past lives part of the practice of poke. Yeah, yeah. And can you say a little more about that? I think that's probably there's maybe a lot of meditators that and their own traditions haven't had such a profound experience, or even know how something like that would be possible or how it would, how it would feel going into that.

Beth Upton  1:05:21

Yeah, actually not, it's not that difficult. The difficult step would be to develop enough concentration. But once there's enough concentration, the first practice that we do is to look at recent past mentality. So the instruction would be something like, you would do something memorable with your mind, like you could make an offering to the Buddha or enter jhana. And then sit down and do your meditation. And then you look at the mental processes that just arise before you started to meditate. So the mental processes saw your meditation cushion, that had the volition to sit, and then go back a little bit further and see if you can discern the mental processes of making that offering to the Buddha, or the mental process of that jhana. And then go back a little bit further, what were you doing in the moments before that, can you see the mental process that heard that sound or saw that, and as you go back further and further, you can start to see the mentality of things that you didn't consciously remember. So you had made no memory of that in the normal way that memory functions, but yet, you can still discern that mentality. And then depending on the level of concentration, you can go back further and further, you can start to jump, okay, that's the mentality that was arising when I was five years old, this back into the mother's womb time,

Host  1:06:47

just ask one question, how does one know that's accurate? How do you how do you know you're not super imposing something onto it? Or fabricating something new that that you're telling yourself was a memory from them? How do you how do you know that it's accurate or authentic?

Beth Upton  1:07:01

So we start by doing the one that we know is true. So with the recent past, one that we know is true. And then what you can imagine, is an image, what you can superimpose or project is an image like in the normal way of memory. What you can't imagine, is mind moments. It's not. It's not an image, it's not a concept. You could discern it wrong. It could be a moment of anger, and you mistake it as a moment of sadness. You could discern it wrong, but you couldn't imagine it. Great. It's not it's not an image. It's not coming from your perception. It's a mind moment.

Host  1:07:51

But you can't in the present moment, you can't fabricate a or or assign a certain kind of feeling to when you felt at a certain time.

Beth Upton  1:08:00

If you did that, you would also be able to observe your present mind moment, saying that fabrication doing that fabrication, so what you could do is you could create something in the present, like anger, for example. And then you could sort of move it in your perception back as if it were the path. But at that level of practice, there'd be too much awareness on that was what you were doing. But we're not doing in the way of it is possible to do in the way of image and concept I was a fish. And at that time, it is possible to project your own wanting. And people do make mistakes. Because perception is so unreliable. That kind of conceptual perception is so unreliable, like dreaming. But when we're descending on the level of mentality and materiality, we can't imagine it wrong. We're the best we can do is badly discern it. Like, Oh, I thought that was a first jhana mental process. Actually, it was a second jhana mental process. I missed a mental factor or two. We can barely discern if our wisdom isn't sharp, but we can't make it up. Without awareness on that's what we're doing. Right.

Host  1:09:12

Okay. So continue with you, you you said that you go to the earliest moments of this life, and then yeah, and

Beth Upton  1:09:18

then like, it's no more difficult to just go back a few moments further. And then you're in the past life, you're in the death time of the past life. So there's no extra work needed to go back into the past life. So back to this thing of concept. Sometimes when the concentration is strong meditators will start to see concept and story at that time. Oh, I was a diver I was a soldier, whatever it might be. At that time, the instruction is to analyze those concepts down to the level of materiality and mentality so if they can do it will be a real One if they can't, it will be their hope or their wish or their projection. And then again to do many, many times, so we become familiar with it. There's a danger. Because it's kind of interesting though. So meditators will get stuck on this story level or think so. So the teachers need a lot of skill, they're not to let that happen. Because when we do that, actually, we just increase the realm of self, we have a greater field of things to identify with. So not only am I am I, Beth, who grew up in London become a nun. I'm also this, whatever it might be in this world, and all that suffering is also mine. And all those achievements are also mine. So we can do this a mistake, because the power of the practice of dependent origination, as I was saying before, is to make the perception of non self much, much stronger through the understanding of cause and effect. And when we use the practice in that way, it's a phenomenally powerful tool. The Buddha said, the one who understands dependent origination understands the Dharma. And it's true, it's a destroyer of doubt. And so profound, so beautiful, so beautiful, right, that time really understanding what an incredible mind the Buddha had.

Host  1:11:21

Right? Can you are you able to share anything about your own observations of that practice? Or is this

Beth Upton  1:11:29

my personal past life? And I won't, okay. Sometimes I do. But depending on the case, I don't know who your readership is. But I'll say like briefly, were asked to discern the most recent, five past lives in detail, as like, standard for the method, so that we can have enough practice of seeing the cause and effect over lives. And then also five lives into the future, if we have that many. But oftentimes, people practicing at that level, they're close to removing all their defilements say, sometimes they only have one or two or no future lives. And then there's another practice that parks here or is now teaching. To see many, many 1000s of past lives, but not in so much detail. Just to get this sense of like the round of rebirth is so long, and really, very deep sense of disenchantment with samsara, we can find that teaching also in the suitors where the Buddha talks about, you know, beings dying and being reborn, and again, and again and again and again. So that's a really powerful perception to have.

Host  1:12:45

Yeah, is there? Have you have any curiosity, from the investigation of your own past lives done any kind of historical analysis on verification of who these people are? Or?

Beth Upton  1:12:58

No. So not of these five past lives that I did in detail, not all of them are human? Sure. So I mean, that's another really powerful thing about doing this practice. These things that, like the existence of Davis, or whatever you might otherwise take with a pinch of salt, if you're from a Western conditioning. Nobody realize it's very true. And very interesting to discern, as well. How is the mind of these beings? How is their body different? So but the timeframe of their lives is also different. So one, Deva life is much longer than human life so it it throws the timeline off. One Brahma life they say is many aeons. It's like many 10s of 1000s of aeons. I think, one Aeon being like one big bang to the next. So it throws the timeline off, but when you're discerning a Brahma life to the Brahma feels normal. And you have like a first person perspective. So yeah, I didn't know like, I wasn't like Gandhi or something difficult to investigate.

Host  1:14:15

Right. Interesting.

Beth Upton  1:14:20

So if I've been Gandhi, I would say tell people

Host  1:14:24

right, right. Right. So it's, um, with these different kind of life forms and beings and, and human and non human. The verification according to some kind of historical timeline would be would be a bit challenging to do in a lot of cases, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah.

Beth Upton  1:14:42

Yeah. In my case, I will say I approached the practice as a skeptic, no, like I was Maths, Physics economics. I approached the whole of part because like, if there's a mistake in this method, which there are there minor right. It's not enough to throw out the method by any means they're minor things. If there are mistakes in this method, I'm going to be the one who finds it. I'm going to go through this thing with a fine tooth comb, these claims are bold, and the end of suffering is on the line. So I'm going to check. And I did and because I approached that practice was like, David's Yeah, we'll see. bravas Yeah. All right. It made my faith stronger. To have have to acknowledge three forces my own direct experience. Wow, okay, these things are real.

Host  1:15:34

Yeah, those kind of Fantasmic call so called fantastical elements. It's a really interesting part of the Buddhist practice for foreigners, because there's been this in Asian Buddhist countries, there's been something of a long history of Westerners coming in and learning about the practice and wanting both the the Westerners wanting to see as well as native Asian Buddhist wanting to show a rational, scientific, logical based practice, which is trying to remove different kinds of fantastical, beyond belief elements of it to to give this impression of like a, you know, something that would really accord with the Western world and look like a mature religion, you know, on par with other religions. And so there's been, I think that's, that's set up a kind of weird dynamic today, where the many times the Buddhist practice is introduced according to these very logical psychological ways, and a care at times a cultivated care that can be on the verge of patronizing of not wanting to bring in these kinds of Wilder elements because they'll, they'll disrupt this careful balance of wanting to keep it on the scientific rational line.

Beth Upton  1:16:48

Yeah, like science has got dibs on the tree. Wow, the arrogance of Western AI that's gonna come crashing down seem like probably within our lifetimes. And they're gonna, you know, like, swallow a bit of humble pie.

Host  1:17:01

Well, there's been this weird dynamic where some of the as it's kind of like this two sided message where the entryway is into a rational, logical, scientifically minded practice that's just going to you know, psychologically aid you etc, without these more so called fantastical elements. Yeah. I

Beth Upton  1:17:17

mean, if if it serves people to like get their foot in the door of the Dharma, then you know, all right. But to their loss is let their loss know. Right. So the, on the side of the Burmese, they also take a step too far sometimes no, like, not everything has to be balanced. Like not everything on this. What's the word? You're using? fantastical, great word. No, everything on this fantastical side is strictly based in truth, right? A lot of it is cultural overlay.

Host  1:17:52

Every pagoda has its origination story, every single

Beth Upton  1:17:55

speck of right the Buddha has been everywhere. This was a

Host  1:17:59

past life, he was a fish and this is verified and everything else. Right, exactly.

Beth Upton  1:18:03

So like, we need you skepticism with that. But you asked me what somebody gave me personally, no, this expands your mind a lot as to what the mind can do and what's possible, a lot. And it undermines, like, sciences monopoly on the truth. And I wish more scientists could practice Samadhi.

Host  1:18:31

But to get back to a thought I'd started to share. So there's, there's this kind of weird two sided approach where on one hand, this is and this has been going on for quite some time with the orientalist movement in the West, that there's this, this kind of rational, logical message that's given to westerners that's, you know, just appealing and oh, this is psychologically helpful. It'll help with your daily life. And it's kind of this entryway into it. Where and then there's this kind of carefully guarded, you know, the Divas, the things that are beyond science. And somehow, once you get a deeper foothold in there, then you are expected to to take in this faith and

Beth Upton  1:19:10

take on faith. I didn't, I'd say develop concentration. come at it with like the capacity mind, which is what science should do. And what does that mean, can you break that down? It's common, it's common see, right, which is where science should be. A science should be okay. Consciousness. We don't understand that. Davis. We don't know. Brahmas. We don't know. Oh, okay. As scientists, do we have the tools to see if Dave is exist. No. All right, let's be humble. But that's not where science is. At. Now. Science is like, we know, David's don't exist. So that arrogance is grown up within like the scientific paradigm is the problem. If science were being true to its own values, it would be able to hold those questions as meditators should be holding. And then it would say like, what tools are available? Oh, well In these texts, it says Samadhi might be a tool. Let's have a go with that, because our telescopes can't do it. But like, massive institutional pride problem gets in the way of that investigation, they but if meditators themselves approach, really, truly in the spirit of science, they can hold those questions with excitement and wonder. And they can patiently develop their Samadhi. And then they can see for themselves.

Host  1:20:26

Yeah, and that being a practitioner in Myanmar, that can definitely present certain kinds of challenges, because there is the, the, the over reach on the part of me and my culture that every single object and place and an area is invested with some kind of magical thing, and that people have lots of stories. And so at being a meditator, it's you hear all of these things, and it's different to know where to or being a Western meditator, it's difficult to know where to orient yourself how open is my mind? How much of a grain of salt do I take in how much am I do I hear these and just try to fill with with a reverence that, you know, isn't really natural to where I come from, but I also don't want to be closed off and dismissive. So it can be a difficult balance to have here as a meditator.

Beth Upton  1:21:08

Yeah, like, yes. There's the Brahma Jalla suta, like the first suta, recorded after the Buddha's death, they're discussing all the different types of views that people can hold wrong views. A lot of those views are born of Samadhi, about the world and the universe, and God and the rest of it. And so much of that SUTA is detailing all of those kinds of wrong views. But right at the end of that sutra, the Buddha asks the monks, why is it monks that people cling to these views? Why is that happening? And he answers his own question, he says, because of the happy feeling associated with that view. And we believe what we believe because it feels good. Very profound. Yeah. Very profound. And so we need to acknowledge that, no, another teacher, he said to me, and people are clinging to these views. There's no kindness in destroying that view. That view is like what is holding them afloat in a stormy sea. What we instead need to do if we have the wisdom and the capacity to offer them firm ground to stand on, and by themselves, they will get out of their little inflatable boat, they will come and stand on this firm ground. So that inflatable boat to the Burmese is believing that the Buddha come to their pagoda. Right, that inflatable boat to the Western scientist, is believing that their scientific approach has the answers to everything very well said, right. And to both to both groups, it's their safety. And walking between those worlds, we need to find our own and acknowledge that

Host  1:22:58

that's what we're doing. That can be pretty painful, sometimes can be

Beth Upton  1:23:01

well, painful, because we offend people on both sides now,

Host  1:23:05

but painful also, because we there's a there's a question of when and how and what degree to submit. And when submission takes place, it's kind of intentional withholding of have some kind of rational or critical thought process because you know, that you can understand the world through through holding on to that. And so there's there's something there's some kind of submission that's letting go of that comfort. But, and throwing yourself into something because there's a faith but the the moment and the extent to decide when and where to let go of those reins. Because you could be putting yourself in a situation where red flags are coming up and you losing those critical

Beth Upton  1:23:49

faculties like don't do that. So we get out of our inflatable boat when there's firm ground to stand on not to jump into a stormy sea that stupid.

Host  1:23:58

But that can be difficult determining when there's that firm ground? Yeah.

Beth Upton  1:24:03

Yes, but I think if it is firm ground, we will naturally inclined to stand on it. That won't be an act of force, there will be a discomfort of letting go of old habits and shifting sense of identity but ultimately will be something that we want to do not that we feel we should do.

Host  1:24:23

Right? Right. I'm thinking of this we have a mutual friend who at one point was had a lovely life and ordained under a say a DA with great faith in in in that say at his work and what he would provide and through his first couple years in monkhood under that say, there were repeated red flags that were going on that he was not able to see. And at one point we had a conversation. It was something of an intervention where I put these red flags to him and basically his early submission which was a beautiful thing under that say it has guidance in terms of his past experience. was preventing him from seeing the red flags from what they were. Because when they would come, he would the critical mind that that might be examining them he had let go of to really put himself under the tutelage of that of that say it. And it was kind of a shock to the system to try to put that to him. And there can be times where something could happen. While you're under that training, something could happen that from an outside seems really jarring and inappropriate, but actually is just what you need. Because as I say, it is wisdom. So it's a very hard situation. It

Beth Upton  1:25:31

is like sometimes as well, of course, we haven't stepped out of our boat and onto firm ground, we've hopped bait. And we've abandoned we've realized, okay, this limited set of beliefs that I'm thinking to isn't working for me, I'm just going to hop over and pick up another set of limiting beliefs such as the Buddha has been to every pagoda, best place in the world. And this sourdough can save me, and we've just jumped boat, it's not better or worse, we're still in the paradigm of clinging to views. When it's really Dharma, we feel safer. And this doesn't happen. There might be something wrong with the saddle, but we're not dependent on it. We're not in his boat, we're with the Dharma. And he's just facilitating are standing there. And he goes and does whatever he has a cake in the afternoon, whatever thing he wants to do. Isn't is not going to affect our standing on that firm ground. If we're in his little inflatable boat, he can drown us.

Host  1:26:32

So that's greater independence of moving from from, say, childhood and Dharma to an adolescence and beyond.

Beth Upton  1:26:39

Yeah, it's us taking the dharma as our refuge and not a set of beliefs as our refuge. I think when we practically experience those states, this kind of doubt goes away. And it's so perfectly described in the texts, this kind of doubt will go away. But it's true when we're practicing the persona. Because there's also sustained attention on very subtle objects, although those objects are always changing because of the nature nature of conditioned phenomena. And the concentration is also very deep jhana like, but it's not the same thing as Jonna. Jonna, the object isn't changing. And so there's like a singleness of awareness and adapts that comes along with that. The deeper passion estates sort of parallel, but it's different. Yeah, I don't know. I would, I would advise your friend to experience those things himself, I think that doubt will fall away.

Host  1:27:38

So you see jhanas very clearly as meaning necessarily deep absorption states.

Beth Upton  1:27:43

Yes. Right. Okay. There are I mean, as I think will continue to happen over the coming decades, until eventually the Dhamma disappears in the world, there tends to be a watering down of what jhana means and what Vipassana means. So now, sort of like I've heard, analyses of the jhanas, were just if you happen to feel joy and happiness, and applied and sustained thought, in your meditation, that's the first jhana. And if you focus on the joy much, that's the second jhana. And if you say, this is really a mistake, and that kind of watering down, maybe the teachers initially start with a good intention of wanting to encourage their students or something, but they really don't understand the damage that they do. Because fewer and fewer people will then be inclined to pursue the real one.

Host  1:28:33

Are you seeing this happen in the West? Yeah, yeah. Right. That was a question I was going to ask is, obviously a more humane Pilot Training Center. It's a it's a massive piece of land. It's one of the biggest meditation traditions in Myanmar and one of the biggest places in terms of just land and population in a single single place where so many people are practicing. What have you seen with the effort to take that teaching out of me and why and spread it to Western countries? How was that gone?

Beth Upton  1:29:01

Oh, that's like, that's my mission at the moment. That's why That's what I'm doing. So yeah, so that's what I'm sort of, in at the moment now. Teaching Westerners which is what I hope to give the next chunk of my life doing. And so the issue, the biggest issue really is creating context for that. So I don't see any particularly big issue in terms of like the Western mind or anything like that, and it's fine. No Westerners can practice well. But the Powell method takes time. Or not just the power method if people wish to attain the Barna it takes time, for the understanding of non self to deepen for the mind to mature, it takes time. And so a lot of meditation practice in the west of them Moment is done in the context of retreats. Sure. And I find that really limiting, is what I'm doing this year now is teaching like, back to back retreats. But I don't really see that as a sustainable way to bring depth of teaching to the West. We also then faced like an integration problem where people's experience of the Dharma is in the bracketed 10 day or maybe the most one month experiences, which, again, is very limiting. So I've spent time over the past five, six years trying to build community, which worked well for us time, because we were squatting the land, we were in caves in southern Spain. So we are very few costs, we were able to live from Diana. But that was, yeah, it was an adolescent community No, like we went legal. And so now I'm looking at how we could scale that and build sort of like a long term space to hold the Dharma at depth. And there's a lot of contextual problems that come in, no, like we don't have a culture of Donna wise association or like good teachers, you could say a thin on the ground there. So the ones who are in the positions of teaching can easily burn out they're not well resourced in the same way that they are here in Malmo. Yeah, how to create context as well that do carry some sort of tradition and story and time and story in place, but don't put a burden on us to be something we're not believe something we don't. So those kinds of contextual problems are there. And I'm still sort of gently trying to work out the best way to approach those. In terms of just like, the ability of Western meditators to practice the this type of meditation, I don't see an issue.

Host  1:32:08

So when you were in Myanmar, I understand you spent a year of intensive practice in a cave.

Beth Upton  1:32:15

Not in Myanmar. Mm hm. I've done a bunch of long retreats, the longest retreat I did in Myanmar was in the way down in the forest with a walker for six months, which was beautiful. It was really thick forest, and like a sea of green. And we could go and like play in the water for a really beautiful time. But the caves that I stay in are in southern Spain, right? So I initially turned up there just wanting a time, block of time, I was still a nun. I wanted to meditate alone for a while. Outside of any tradition, and without a teacher. And then as a nun, I had a rule not to use money. So it needed to be free. And a lot of the meditation centers, they either want you to pay or they want you to do their method in Europe, and I wanted neither of these things. So my mom put me on a bus to southern Spain. And my thinking was like it's warm enough to sleep outside. And this is Europe. I don't think they're going to let me starve. I'll beg for food like something a workout. And it did. And so I found these caves. At that time. They were inhabited by addicts and criminals. It's like the Gypsy suburb. Oh, wow. And I went on up there to stay with them. I have my own little cave. And I sort of befriended them. I was there for about 15 months meditating. And then they started to change one of my friends there, Harold, who PR also was with Harold, they say he had been an addict for like 40 years, and he was selling coke and drinking wine out of the cotton for breakfast, like an aging hippie. I really loved him. And after I'd been there about six months, he got in a fight with another guy. He nearly died actually. And it gave him urgency. And he stopped drinking, stop taking drugs asked me to teach him meditation. And within the next about six months of being with him, he could practice all the jhanas Wow. And he could discern his past lives. And then I left Spain for a few months and po was there with him and c'est la Piazza. Yeah. And at that time, his body caught up with him knowing he had cancer all through his digestive system and he was dying. But whilst he was dying, he was telling the nurses please meditate. So that was how I first ended up there in Spain and that community started to change and I thought, Okay, we've got this space now basically, that we can use, it's about 15 caves. And so we turned it into a little rebellious meditation community. Feel free times really good times I learned a lot there.

Host  1:35:03

Right? So concerning some of your intensive and solitary practice and either in the caves in Spain or in time and away, the scriptures describe monastic life in nature as occasionally accused, as occasionally including dangers, hardships and discomforts. What were some of your experiences?

Beth Upton  1:35:25

I mean, I'm in my element when I'm alone in retreat. No, I love it. And so those kinds of things don't trouble me much. They're in the way I didn't know there was snakes. There wasn't much hardships. It was beautiful.

Host  1:35:41

Really? Okay.

Beth Upton  1:35:42

It was the rainy season there and we were in a little bamboo hut, and we had loads of space. And it was it was one of the beautiful six months of the life. There was one difficulty there, but I will have to tell you after we finished recording,

Host  1:35:57

okay.

Beth Upton  1:36:02

In the caves it was the first time when I had been with no copier. So I'm not sure if your audience will know what that means. But as a monastic, we don't hold money. But oftentimes we have someone nearby or in the same community who can hold money on our behalf a lay person, right? So if somebody wants to offer me money, and I can't accept it, they give it to you Joe, for example, and they tell Joe, if ever I need a toothbrush, get one for her, right? This is our copier, but they're in Spain. I was a long time with no copier. And I turned up in my cave, just a dusty hole. So literally everything I needed. Like I carried a mattress up the hill on my head. I I was begging for my food. Yeah, everything I needed come from the rubbish over me begging. But I didn't experience it as a hardship at that time. I loved it. And I was living with addicts and criminals. I was on the edge of the Gypsy Saba, which is a violent suburb of Almeria.

Host  1:37:06

But did you speak Spanish on vocal?

Beth Upton  1:37:09

So pcnt. But at that time, I was happy. beginning of last year, beginning of 2019, I also did a retreat under a tree there in Almeria, audible that I eat a tree of life, I love that tree. That was the worst hardship I think I ever experienced in retreat, because we had these really feisty rats, and they ate like, everything they ate through my sleeping bag and my backpack. I know I was doing some fasting and they ate my enema bag. Goodness, I know. So that was an issue. But mostly I don't experience retreat time as hardship I experience it as gift.

Host  1:37:57

Are there particular insights that arose from that that was specifically connected to spending time isolated and nature

Beth Upton  1:38:06

the isolation really just means like less distraction. And so we can hold these subtle perceptions for longer knowing our more depth. So the insights that arise and deepen our around the understanding of impermanence, suffering and non self about the destruction of the defilements, the end of suffering, those kinds of things that are more difficult to access when we're like leading a busy life out in the world. Right. So that's all really what's most important things I've ever done with my time is deepened those understandings, like the Four Noble Truths are real, is important. There's an end of all suffering. And so that notice, like the door out of The Truman Show, that's what you find in solitude, you can't get that when you're in the flow of believing in this self.

Host  1:39:02

Right, right. So, you came from a background of training and these called the rational sciences, economics and other things and and then have ended up you know, a penniless beggar and in poor neighborhoods of Spain in Myanmar, sometimes as a as a nun, sometimes as a practitioner. What does your family made of all this?

Beth Upton  1:39:28

They they've been extremely supportive. Yeah. My father ordained as a seminary for a month. Like as a novice monk for a month. He still sometimes likes to use his parley name. My sister did a couple of long retreats with parks here or, at times. She was a brilliant copier to me, my mom, also in spirit, supportive of my path. She never asked me to do any other thing although I think she probably had a secret hope that I was get married and have kids. She allow me every freedom. And now I live in Spain often. And I see there how controlling parents are of their children. I think wow. Every crazy experiment I made with my life she never my mom was my primary caregiver. No, she never said to me, I don't want you to do that. Even I leave the UK on a bus ticket, and the email she gets from me is Oh, yeah, I'm living in a cave with these addicts. Okay, darling. Well, you know, good luck with that. And you sent me I mail her sometimes because I some things I simply couldn't get like, I need a lighter, or I need a please could you send me a package? And she would send to my cave? she say she thinks she's the first person ever who have to announce in her workplace like, Oh, I'm just going to send this package to my daughter's K.

Host  1:41:02

What does that address look like on an envelope?

Beth Upton  1:41:03

I actually know it was. I was lucky, though. We had I made a friend and Maria, who had an apartment in town and received paste for us. But in the way of giving me freedom, my mom has been very supportive. Right.

Host  1:41:19

So you spent a lot of time on Powell practice in Myanmar. Have you tried any other practices here?

Beth Upton  1:41:25

Sure. Yeah. I mean, really, it was when I started teaching. I realized I had to learn much more on the basic and how to bring people up through those initial stages of trying to calm their mind. So then I started doing like going Kara Massey and these other practices that give a lot of tools there. I did a retreat with our John Brahm, he does a lot on these beginning stages. And I started to learn more Sure.

Host  1:41:58

Right. And so have these different practices, giving you something to incorporate your own understanding and teaching from.

Beth Upton  1:42:04

Yeah, I mean, what we learn at PARC, it's really exhaustive. And so I can't say it's taught me, there was no great new insight that came from doing those practices, but it just, it increases my toolkit as a teacher. For sure.

Host  1:42:24

Right, right. Right. So getting to your time as monastic how many years were you in robes again, 1010 years and you disrobe two years ago?

Beth Upton  1:42:33

Yeah, October 2018. Right. Right.

Host  1:42:38

So and you ordained from the time 25 years old. So that was that was still a pretty young person on the road, young person in the world to be taken on these robes. Yeah, yeah. When did you first contemplate the idea of ordination?

Beth Upton  1:42:52

Maybe a couple of years. I was at that Mahayana center was that Spain? I was like 23. So maybe a couple of years before that. I didn't think to ordain, but something had touched my heart. And really, it was only when I arrived at PARC and so many people were ordained. And it felt like a good idea. But my actually ordained life suited me very, very well. I loved it. But it was more the enthusiasm to meditate, that grabbed me than the enthusiasm to be an ordained person then

Host  1:43:27

why not continue meditating as a lay person? What about the the ordained life really grabbed hold of you to want to wear the robes during meditation?

Beth Upton  1:43:38

I liked very much the 10th precept is probably the biggest reason. So I had done studied economics. It was my degree and it had like, it was like being beaten round the head with. This is why money is ugly stick for three years, unintentionally, they were trying to tell me why money was great. But since I graduated, I was looking for a way to engage in the world that wasn't money dependent. That wasn't money centric. And I couldn't find that way. No, like, I was trying to figure out too much too young. And when this 10th preset was presented to me, I was like, great, what is the 10th preset and not handle money. And so it just so fit my ideals at that time that, okay, I'm going to give everything I've got to this practice and what I need is going

Host  1:44:35

to come. So it was that 10th preset more than anything else. And that's what kept

Beth Upton  1:44:39

me ordained for so long as well. Because there were other aspects of ordained life the minor rules that I really just didn't care about sitting on my sitting cloth or eating in a certain way or whatever. I did out of respect for the tradition. But that 10th precept really kept me ordained and was one of the biggest reasons why I just raped because I got to the point where I realized I, I'm using it as a tool of avoidance, avoiding money, and engaging with it and thinking about it. And now trying to create context for the Dharma to thrive. I saw like my lack of understanding my judgment, I realized this shadow myself and I thought, okay, I really need to engage with this. I better go and get a job, I bet. Look at this in myself. What happens to my mind when I reengage with that? Again? That's been a really sharp learning curve for me. Yeah, I

Host  1:45:34

imagine wearing the robes, did you notice an effect that had on your meditation practice making that change?

Beth Upton  1:45:41

Nothing to compare it to? Because I started meditating full time at the same time as I ordained,

Host  1:45:48

right? How about disrobing did that affect your meditation practice?

Beth Upton  1:45:53

Not the act of disrobing Nice. So when I disrobed, I spent the first big chunk of it in retreat. And it's the same, but lay life doesn't lend itself, obviously, to deep meditation in the same way that ordained life does, just through the force of having to spend time doing so many other things. And in money, right, like paying the rent. So in that way, yes. Just because of not so much time available, but at the moment, I find it broadens my understanding of the Dharma in other ways, right? It doesn't lend itself to depth. But I see the Dahmer in every corner existence, and it gives rise to a deepened level of urgency and etc, etc. I can build more power me, like build my other mental qualities more?

Host  1:46:46

Or have you heard of the documentary? I think it's called act normally. No. So it's great. It's a, it's a it's a true story about a British guy who ordains when he's 18 years old, and he stays in robes until about 36 or so. So basically, from birth to 18, he was a lay person from 18 to 36. He was, you know, his whole development, basically, he was a monk and felt that he was missing some urgent lesson in the real world, he had to get back to Oh, is

Beth Upton  1:47:15

he the one? He's a bit of an older guy, and he sort of falls in love? Yeah, yeah, I've seen.

Host  1:47:23

So I'm just I'm thinking of that with you. Because you you also spent not quite as to the extent that he did, but you spent a formative and very long period of your time in robes. And the the most amazing part of the documentary for me is when it it actually shows him going back into lay life and not reflecting about it, but actually in the process of that. And it shows his absolute confusion. Like he doesn't know what the freedom is so overwhelming to me doesn't and it's also tedious like having to comb his hair every day having to and it just there's a image of him in the in the movie in the documentary where he's, you know, wearing work clothes and at a factory or something. And everything about him just looks like he doesn't even really know how to sit he doesn't know how to. And he talked about how he didn't know like, what what time he should eat or how he should make decisions. And he talked about the the regulation and the uniformity of monastic life, just taking so many decisions out of the equation, that he didn't really have to think about a lot of things that can just kind of go with the flow and stepping outside of of that life and having so much freedom to decide. So many things that actually don't really matter. Ended up being just confounding and overwhelming to him. And he eventually spoiler alert, but he eventually goes back to being a monk at the end, and he's still in robes today. But I wonder if when you disrobe after so long if you had anything similar to to feeling overwhelmed by being out in the world?

Beth Upton  1:48:51

Yeah, I mean, it wasn't specifically that I was, I was prepared. No, like I went, after I spent that time in retreat, I went back to London, to get a job. And I was prepared for it to be a bit of an onslaught. And actually, it was great. I really, I really loved it. And it was challenged like it's a challenge getting yourself back into the system, opening a bank account

Host  1:49:14

was like, off the grid for so long, right?

Beth Upton  1:49:18

And like having to pay attention again, to what I was wearing. Those kinds of things, but it wasn't too I couldn't say it was overwhelming. It was like do struggle that I was expecting. The challenge was actually the last couple of years that I was a nun and not why I disrobed, I had I had already thought about disrobing before this happened, but I ended up in an abusive relationship. A non sexual relationship. That totally Yeah, it totally destroyed me at that time. totally destroyed me. And that made me forced me to realize all of the skills that monastic life hadn't taught me. And this rhetoric we have of this practice is all you need for the end of suffering. At that time, I was in the worst suffering of my life and those tools didn't serve me at all. And the guy who was being abusive to me would even say like, well, if, if I'd hurt you, why didn't you just enter Jannah

Host  1:50:23

What did you think of that?

Beth Upton  1:50:24

I thought, yeah, I fuck yourself. Yeah. Yeah, even title. Yeah. And these worldly skills I didn't have to, that are rooted in a healthy perception of self we spend so long on the non self track. The mind that says no, this is me, you're You're hurting me. This is my line. This is my boundary that he had like, found the anger button and seemed to be delighting in playing with it. No, like, but the I had been so safe. The skills that I needed to protect myself against that kind of thing when when there I was over idealistic. I was in this rhetoric of like, if, if you can just have more metta maybe he'll start being kind. And I learned so so much through that it was the most painful experience of my life, but I learned so much. And for a time that was like, I threw the baby out with the bathwater. No, because to my mind, all these skills that I had just been developing failed me when I needed them. And it took a while for me to rescue that baby.

Host  1:51:44

Hmm. What do you make of that? In what way that these life skills that you were working on that were very profound when you found yourself in a situation of mundane suffering that you weren't able to bring them up? It reminds me of I think it was rom das who had the famous expression if you think you're develop spiritually go spend a weekend with your family?

Beth Upton  1:52:03

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it if you think you'll develop spiritually Try falling in love with an abusive man. Fairy very difficult. Fairy very difficult. Yeah, I mean, what I've, what I've come to realize is that it's it's a different toolset that we need when we're, when we choose to an air is a choice. If you are able to meditate deeply, there's a choice to pick up a degree of self and into the world. And when we do that, we need a certain set of tools that we're not taught as monastics, we were taught that only in the context of living in a monastery. And it's not framed in that way. But like Paul said, or he's chosen to pick up a degree of selfhood, and operate as a theater in the world. And he's got his tool set that he needs for that. And so the act of entering a relationship with another person, whatever type of relationship that is, we choose to frame ourselves in a certain way and pick that up. And we need a tool set with it. And I had zero tools for dealing with an abusive person, and abusive manipulators zero tools. I was trusting by nature. I'd been surrounded for the last seven, eight years with people who were honest, and caring and kind and considerate. And I almost couldn't believe that that degree of unkindness existed in the world. It wasn't in my sphere. And because of they expanded me a lot. What was your original question?

Host  1:53:48

Oh, just about the overwhelm what? Which original question how far back? Yeah, you were talking

Beth Upton  1:53:55

about this documentary with that monk.

Host  1:53:58

Back to that, yeah, just, I mean, I just found it so fascinating seeing this person that that had been away from normal society and so long, and just some of the fundamentals he just, he couldn't figure out we're just we're baffling to him. And also not that level of freedom was was actually an impediment to living living a productive life because he'd been so used to not having choice and the advantages of his mind not having to, you know, waste this time on all these these silly things to have to choose from. Yeah, so

Beth Upton  1:54:28

for me, it wasn't that it wasn't the freedom of choice, though, that that I do experienced that, but it doesn't overwhelm me. But it was this sort of slapped around the face with reality in a different way. Like, wow, people are like that, too. Okay, you know, I've got to build that into my picture of the world. Right. And there's previous me who felt safe and trusting and naive, naive, yeah, and believed in people's inherent goodness. believe that if I'm kind to you, you're basically you're going to be called I Oh, no, you're not. I'm going to be kind to you then exploit it for everything it's worth and use it to kick me down and hurt me.

Host  1:55:06

Yeah, it can be a hard step along the path to try to develop some kind of soft inner trusting core. That also has some kind of outer harder protective layer. Right? Yeah, balance.

Beth Upton  1:55:19

Yeah. Right. And I'm in that now, and still integrating so many lessons that that experience with him taught me, which was like the death of my, it was the death of an old me who was a bit too idealistic, certainly naive. And he you He shouted at me more than once, like what use is your is your wisdom on the ultimate level when you've got no wisdom on the conceptual level? Which was incredibly unkind given that he was the one who would hurt me, but also, he was right. Yeah. And so now I'm in those hard lessons of, okay, I got to operate as a self in this world in necessitates a certain degree of suffering. So how do I protect that me? How do I protect that version of me and who she going to be?

Host  1:56:08

Right? Right. So you are not in Myanmar for 10 years, you are a female monastic? You the the treatment in Myanmar of monks and nuns is somewhat different. What? What differences Did you notice? And how did that affect your time here?

Beth Upton  1:56:26

At that time, I just felt grateful. And although the roles were very different, in heart, and in spirit and an access to the Dharma, I didn't experience discrimination. So we had every bit as much access to the teachings and the teachers and time for meditation, there was more difficult in that the nuns quarters were much more noisy than the monks quarters power. But I just decided to like leave and go meditate alone in the forest every day. And so although I could see it on like a superficial conceptual level, I didn't experience it in the way of disrespect or discrimination.

Host  1:57:09

So it didn't affect so much of your time in robes, those 10 years. No,

Beth Upton  1:57:13

maybe because I ordained young, or I simply wasn't in a political frame of mind. At that time, I ignored it. And I was I was just grateful for the teachings and the Dharma and the opportunity to practice. That's how I framed it at that time. Now, I'm in the flow of like, creating context for the Dhamma to thrive in the West, is obviously something that I need to consider. I'm not about to build a community where the females are systematically given worse conditions than the men like, obviously, I'm not going to recreate that. I'm not defending it as a system. But for me, personally, I I chose to go down like the acceptance and gratitude route. And it worked well, for me.

Host  1:58:02

It's also worth mentioning that Pollock has a reputation of pretty good track record comparatively with with female, yogi's and and nuns. And yeah,

Beth Upton  1:58:14

pug said, or he just wants to teach meditation. And he's working within the constraints of this society. And he's doing his best with

Host  1:58:22

it. But I've heard there are there female meditators that come that want to become nuns, and some of them aren't even necessarily so interested in the power method. But the power system is a really good place to practice just because of the respect and the, the care that they're given. Yeah, maybe?

Beth Upton  1:58:41

Yeah, maybe. I mean, I'd recommend it to a friend.

Host  1:58:48

Right. So when you initially disrobed, I think it was a at the time it was a temporary decision, you thought you were taking a step back? Is it still temporary? Do you think you'll become a nun? Again,

Beth Upton  1:59:01

I think I mean, I described for the deepening of my dharma practice, I had felt like this relationship that I had been in sort of, was the straw that broke the camel's back. But before then, I had started to feel my monastic life as limiting my understanding of the Dharma rather than facilitating it. At this stretch that I'm in in my life right now. Now, like I'd given time to deep meditation, which is what monastic life is there to facilitate. And it was a very narrow experience of life. It was a very narrow part of existence that I was experiencing. So I started to feel it is limiting me. When I start to feel like life is limited my understanding of the Dharma, maybe I'll ordain again, or I'll go back to another form that facilitates a different type of path, but my intention is always for like my increasing understanding of the Four Noble Truths. At the moment as as a lay person, I like the anonymity, the freedom that it gives me the breadth of experience that I can have the relational stuff that I need to improve on know that I, I need to experience more diversity of relation.

Host  2:00:17

Right? You mentioned anonymity. So is that something you feel you did not have in Myanmar,

Beth Upton  2:00:21

anywhere? Because in Myanmar were the white one. And in the west with a nun, right. And so almost every conversation for those 10 years that I would have with a new person was centered around me being a nun that does something to the way that we perceive ourselves and the way that we perceive life. And it's really good for me at the moment to be in London and just be back from London.

Host  2:00:46

And how long have you been back in Myanmar on this trip? a month? And how long are you staying?

Beth Upton  2:00:51

I leave tomorrow?

Host  2:00:53

Oh, okay. Great. I'm glad we caught you any plans to come back after this?

Beth Upton  2:00:56

I hope I'll come back one year one time, though. There's a lot of things places I'm supposed to be one year, you know, like a month a year. If it ends up being maybe like every other year or so. Okay, but for now, I find it nourishing to reconnect with my teachers this culture that's given me so much.

Host  2:01:15

What terms did you leave me, Mr. On how what was your feeling at the time when your your 10 years came to a close? Were you here? 10

Beth Upton  2:01:23

years? No, I was in Spain when I distract, right?

Host  2:01:25

That's right. So so how long was it actually you were in Lima.

Beth Upton  2:01:29

I was in Myanmar five years without leaving. And then the second five years I was here, back and forth, maybe like a third of the time or a quarter of

Host  2:01:38

seven, eight years or so here? So what? So that's kind of a lot to capture and a brief moment, because I'm sure you went through a lot of stages of your of your journey. I don't know maybe you can share a little bit about your initial impressions and how they changed over time. Up to the point when you

Beth Upton  2:01:55

I think I said to you at the beginning, my perceptions of Burmese culture develop really slowly because right, I was focusing on the meditation. So like over those five years things trickled in about what Burmese culture was, I barely left the monastery. And so my perception of Burmese culture was largely through the lay people that trickled through part. And then, after I left, and I started coming back, and I travel around Myanmar more, and I got to understand things a little bit better. I still wouldn't consider myself any sort of pundit on Burmese culture.

Host  2:02:35

Or Burmese Buddhism, maybe?

Beth Upton  2:02:37

Yeah. Again, I'm mostly just gratitude. Yeah. And now I leave I it hits me again and again, what a massive service to the world, the Burmese lay people do. Right to the hole of like human consciousness, what they humbly do. That people like me can come and practice is phenomenal.

Host  2:03:03

It's amazing. This has been a closed off country for so long. It's been impoverished and oppressed in so many ways for so many years. It in terms of physical things, that what used to be the biggest exporter in the world and rice, among other things, and now barely, barely, barely is able to export anything of material value. And yet in spite of all this, as you said, for the last 150 years, it's been the one of the biggest investigators and exporters of discovery of human consciousness and liberation,

Beth Upton  2:03:34

right? Like the whole of humankind, no such a debt of gratitude to the Burmese lay people. It's phenomenal what they do phenomenal. That's probably my overriding perception. There was a time when I've been here five years without leaving where I felt the cultural drain the roles are very well defined. Difficult to ask, why? About a lot of things. There's a lot of fear and what kind of fear well, like a park, for example, they don't like you to sort of walk alone outside of the monastery boundary really even just like a little stroll in the forest. And I don't know I have a sort of adventurous nature so it can feel a bit confining. Some other things, but really, those things are minor in comparison to this gift of Dharma that I'm given. Every culture has its light in its dark.

Host  2:04:40

Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Um, do you have a favorite meditation place in Myanmar?

Beth Upton  2:04:50

Oh, oh, beautiful question. I just went to a new place the other day So I was gonna say the poem. I really love that monastery and said, Oh, no, I'm sorry. It's great to have Olga Marburg at home. pragma also Greenhills Yeah, wonderful place. And there's a little place. Park Mala Mia, which is where I was for those five years was very noisy and not where I like to meditate. But I found a place in the forest where I wasn't supposed to go alone. And I found a little bit of statue that I meditated by for years alone, which I still holds a lot of happy memories for me. I did a lot of good meditation there. But the Tom, I was there just a few days ago. And we went swimming in some hot springs about half an hour's drive away know that place? Is it it's in the tone is on the road between the tone and I know Yeah, I'm fine. I think I know the place. Yeah. And it's like at the bottom of this hill. And yeah, monastery there. Yeah. top of the stairs, there's a cave. I'm not sure if you've been in Yeah, you can go right to the back of that cave. A little bit out of the back. I was just in there. And I felt like I want to cancel my life and just stay in that cave. I meditate was so deeply slight, so still difficult for a thought to arise because it was so quiet. So I also said or if I'm back in Myanmar, another time could arrange for me to practice their display premise a little bit, enough to look after myself not enough to have a meaningful conversation. So

Host  2:06:31

did you meditate before after the hot springs tip?

Beth Upton  2:06:35

After? Yeah, so I feel that would be that would be nice way to spend a few months meditating in that cave. And then at dusk time go for a swim for I might try and make that happen next.

Host  2:06:49

Right, so moving on to your teaching. When did you first start being in a position to teach the Dhamma.

Beth Upton  2:06:58

Um, there was I, there were a few years where I was very reluctant to teach. And so I wasn't in a position to teach the Dharma because I was scared. I think is probably as honest as I can be. Because it felt like a very big responsibility. Also, I knew that I couldn't sustainably teach in a way that my teachers had modeled to me, which is like patriarchal, and being sort of all knowing, in this unchanging sort of sage role, which would be ridiculous. If I tried to pull that off, it wouldn't feel honest. And I hadn't seen another way model to look healthy and sustainable and true. And so I just didn't do anything. And then when I was in Spain, in the caves, this guy Harold I already mentioned, so I was just being me, you know, I just rocked, rocked on up to these caves, I was doing my own practice, I was by no means being a good CLA. And I saw just just a die as enough. I simply explained to him the Dharma that I know, I don't have to add anything to that, how much he benefit. And so he changed that really herald the sincerity of his practice. We were friends. And he showed me I can just be me with all of my faults, with all of my weaknesses with all of my, like, Beth SNESs. And, and he understands the Dhamma. Anyway, and it gave me a lot of confidence. And so after that, I made the determination if anybody asks me to teach, I will say yes. And so I've just gone with that since then. And started leading retreats and seeing people benefit. And only recently I start to grow in confidence with it more and enjoy it. And really delight in seeing people's understanding of the Dharma grow.

Host  2:09:12

Does that answer the question? Yeah. Do you consider yourself a powerful teacher? No,

Beth Upton  2:09:17

no, for the ones who can do that level of practice, I teach. If they love detail, I will teach them all the detail. If they don't, then I will teach them the detail that I consider to be necessary for their understanding of anatomy to become mature.

Host  2:09:35

And what is this Pollock say? And I know that you're you're teaching John and what is his opinion on

Beth Upton  2:09:41

it? All right. Yeah, all right. Like he wouldn't make me. I mean, he'd be stupid as well to make me like a teacher of a pop place. I'm not claiming to do that. Also no interest to do that. But yeah, he loves May he respects me. And he's also pleased. He's becoming a bit more relaxed now. So he also mentioned to me when I just saw him recently, he mentioned to me Shaila and a jaguar, who are now teaching in IMS. And previously, he would have wanted them to be really by the book. But this time, he said, Oh, they so now there's Shyla. And there's a jogger and one other I think her name's Nikki, I haven't met her. They're now teaching in America, he said happy, he said, a little bit different. But still, they are teaching. So he understands. Now I think he's coming to understand that we will change a little bit from the script. But the aim is the same. And the respect for the method is also the same. But there's more flexibility. Right? There's much more on the basic. So obviously, if somebody can't develop Jana, I'm not only going to say, Okay, please focus on your breath.

Host  2:11:03

Right. Yeah, that's such a, a question these days with the structured meditation techniques is, as disciples are learning these techniques, and then sharing them what is the process of you know, teacher appointment or authorization? And how the how the the technique in question is able to be adapted, or how much it needs to be regulated and controlled from the the original structure that the presiding teacher has set down. So I think

Beth Upton  2:11:30

if the teachers understanding personal understanding of the Dharma is deep enough, like if they've got high enough up that mountain, then we can trust their intuition on what is dharma and what is not. If the practitioner hasn't practiced deep enough to really understand what is dharma and what is not, then they will be dependent a lot on the method. Right? And so part oxido, he tends to be comfortable with people teaching only once the depth of their practice is deep enough know that understanding of the Dharma is deep enough. And then now he's starting to trust them more. He let go a little bit of his park name and brand, not a mere ma right. Here. It's still a big thing. Yeah. He I think he's, he had hoped to make sort of like a strong POC brand, maybe in America or in Europe, the few Western disciples that have come through and have practice deeply enough, or Jarrod Shaila me, we haven't done that. And we haven't wanted to. And maybe at first there might have been like, an inclination to blame us or criticize us. But I think he's getting to a stage of acceptance now and realizing like, Okay, what needs to be carried forth, there will be and he need to trust us to do our best, right, given the culture.

Host  2:13:03

Right, right, what challenges have you faced as a teacher that you weren't expecting?

Beth Upton  2:13:12

The biggest challenge I already touched on which is lack of context. So the only way to teach really at the moment is retreats, which aren't so suitable for this method or for the attainment of nibbana. Because the time is limited, and that's the aim is to attain nirvana, and wanting people to know that that's possible. And life is short, like, let's try and there's really a lack of held communities that do that kind of practice. I think everything else stems from that. Really like living and working on dharna when there's no sort of held context for it, like refuse to teach for a price. Which means that in my breaks, I have to work for money like a job in London, less time for a meditation but everything stemming from this sort of lack of cultural context to hold long term deep practice.

Host  2:14:11

Yeah, I've seen I read a quotation of someone describing your teaching that I want to read. It was a it was it was online if someone complimenting having been a student of you as references USA lay a neutral your name, says say lay a neutral rug gives meditation retreats newly in Europe. She is unique with an illusion cutting gentle and compassionate presence. She doesn't give a one size fits all instruction on her retreats but gives instructions to each person individually followed by daily individual interviews and practice with her. She has the Eastern purity of teachings with Western clarity with re jerseyan person centeredness did I say that name right re jerseyan.

Beth Upton  2:14:56

I represent referencing Carl Rogers say I don't know how you would say, yeah, yeah,

Host  2:15:02

I don't know if I annunciation right on that. But in any case, you know, the Dhamma is separate from culture. Although culture is intertwined with everything we do, you've been exposed to a lot of Western as well as Eastern culture. And so I'm wondering if you've been exposed in life and in meditation practice. So I'm curious, what degree do western and eastern cultural values inform your teaching?

Beth Upton  2:15:25

Whoa, that's a big question. I guess they just both do in for my teaching now, because they've two big cultures in which I have been, what's the word I'm looking for? When you're like in something? insulated? No.

Host  2:15:56

When you're in something, yeah. Like, absorbed,

Beth Upton  2:16:00

yeah, in which I've been absolute, that wasn't a word I'm looking for a bit, I'll do. So I've been like, really absorbed in both of those cultures. And so they've conditioned the way that I think and the way that I perceive the world. And so they come out when I'm teaching. I think it's as simple as that. But what I'm intentionally doing when I teach is trying to get the students to step further on the path to the end of all suffering, the cultural stuff is secondary.

Host  2:16:35

It's secondary, but if the cultural stuff is not handled effectively, then it could eventually be a barrier from getting anywhere.

Beth Upton  2:16:43

Yeah, so I don't do that through thinking much. I just instinctively, you know, I think we all do that. So if you meet a Burmese person on the street, through instinct, there'll be a slightly different way of engaging with them, than if I come around for breakfast,

Host  2:17:03

if you're familiar with our culture,

Beth Upton  2:17:06

and it's not through much intellectualization is through, you know, both cultures, and you run on instinct. In the same way, if I'm leading a retreat in the West, I didn't put much thought into how I will handle that culturally, I just listened to them, observe them, have an open heart to them have the intention for their progress in the Dharma?

Host  2:17:28

Yeah, yeah, I think it's great seeing people like you, or jagua, that are taking the teachings out, because in a country like Thailand, which has had a relatively more stable past, you know, 40 years or something, there's been a number of Western practitioners that have really developed in the Thai Forest Tradition, and then are able to be authentic to the practice they learned there, but then speak in such a way that a Westerner can really absorb it. But by nature of Myanmar's very turbulent history, there's a stretch of time when foreigners couldn't have more than a seven day visa, you know, for many years, so that really prevented for a long time, foreigners being able to, to stay here and absorb effectively the wisdom of, of the practices here and then take it back in the Western Way, Burmese also by nature of living in a closed society might have, there might be a generation of teachers and practitioners that are very skilled, but that cultural, the cultural and linguistic barrier is difficult for being able to bring it so it's, you know, Burma really, in that regard, has really lagged beyond, say Thailand or Tibet, Tibetan Buddhism, Japanese Zen Buddhism of not having those Westerners who have come and put the time in, and are then able to carry it to be an effective vehicle of communication back to the culture.

Beth Upton  2:18:44

I mean, I feel that especially with the Abbe Dharma, because the Thai Forest Tradition has done a lot to discredit that Abbe Dharma hmm. And there's sort of like this question mark around whether Abbe Dharma is true. It is, is observable truth?

Host  2:19:02

Can you just back up a moment and say, what is the Abbe Dhamma

Beth Upton  2:19:05

and the Abbe Dharma is the philosophy isn't quite the right word. No. It's the description of how mentality of materiality is working on the level of momentarily arising and perishing and the causality of that. So very, very fine analysis of body and mind. And very important in Myanmar, very important in Myanmar. Yeah. And it's like right there in their understanding, but the perception, I mean, in the West is either not known, or it's sort of like vaguely known as being being this impenetrable philosophy. Or it's useless. Or maybe it's just the work of scholars, or the Buddha never really taught it. It came much later. We don't really know why the Scholars wanted to waste their time with that with somebody not every single little detail of Abbe Dharma is in our capacity to observe but the lion's share of it is, and not only we understand this is truth, this is observable truth. This is replicable, observable truth. This is truth, which directly helps us suffer less than this is truth, which is presented in this way, specifically to cut through our lingering perceptions of self, for the eradication of our defilements. And for our exiting of samsara. Wow. Wow. And very scientific science is true to its own values, very scientific, and precise, and systematic, and many things that I think resonate very well with Western culture much more than sort of like the vague isms of often how the Thai Forest Tradition presents itself. And so I'm often met with enthusiasm and almost sort of like disbelief that nobody has mentioned. That's how I felt as well, when I was like, disbelief, that nobody's mentioned this, to me sooner or to them sooner. And one of the things I want to do when I get a minute, and get up the confidence for it is to write a book about Abbe Dharma, but not in the genre of Dharma or enlightenment, manual, or self help or love yourself or anything like that. But in the era of Popular Science, of like, this is what consciousness is no, it's not a very hard problem. We already know what that is. We already know its causality, causal relationships with the material world in detail. This is how you observe it. This is how you replicate this experiment. You need to throw out your toolset. As scientists you need to put down that arrogance that you've developed around your methodology. Please rekindle your spirit of investigation. And yeah, I'll see how that goes down.

Host  2:22:06

Yeah, I have to ask this, I'm just thinking, you're talking about science and consciousness, another thing and then there's this started with science fiction. Now. It's actually something that people are talking about as a possibility. And sometime in the future, this idea of uploading your consciousness to the cloud, preserving consciousness in some kind of scientific, technological way? Do you have any opinion about that?

Beth Upton  2:22:30

I don't know enough about how they're proposing to do that. I don't think they do either. I think probably those ideas come from a really amiss understanding of what consciousness is, of it being like a continual thing, or so consciousness as it's a momentary process. And each moment has a complex set of conditions. Only some of those conditions pertain to this life. So that's incredibly complex. It is not an object that is uploadable in the same way that a physical object like a brain is uploadable. So I don't want to say impossible because technology does surprise us doesn't it does the pass our expectations, but I would imagine the way that they are currently hoping it will work probably won't work.

Host  2:23:20

Great. Yeah. I think I'm done on my end. And any last thing you want to say no,

Beth Upton  2:23:25

just thank you this interesting questions that you ask. I wish you the best with this podcast.

2:23:53

Yeah,

Host  2:23:54

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