Transcript: Episode #96: Resistance and Transformation
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Chit Tun, which appeared on March 24, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Chit Tun 00:57
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Kenneth Wong 02:43
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Host 03:43
I'd like to welcome everyone tuning into this episode. Many of you now listening likely have a measure of personal freedom and liberty in your own lives, freedoms that the speaker you're about to hear from no longer enjoys. I don't say this to make anyone feel guilty. But to offer a reminder that we're very fortunate to have a degree of agency and safety in our lives that our upcoming guests and everyone else in Myanmar these days can only dream of. So after you hear their story, please consider how you can use your freedom to support or advocate on behalf of the Burmese people. Any action no matter how small counts. Now let's hear what they have to say. The end of the day I'm very happy to welcome back to a second appearance on insight Myanmar podcast tune who joined us last year soon after the coup broke. And he was one of the leaders in the non violent protests that were occurring around Yangon and around the country. And it's been a year since that time. And we're going to check in with him about what has passed since those initial weeks that we checked in with him before. So jutsu and thanks so much for joining us again.
Chit Tun 05:52
Thank you so much. Yeah, I am also very glad to meet you again, bro.
Host 06:01
Yeah, we're glad to have you there. Glad to have you here and glad that you're you're safe and sound after what's been such a difficult year. I think I want to kick off this conversation first, by asking you, before we had our interview, before this current recording, I had asked you to listen one more time to the interview we did last year, which I also encourage listeners to check out the this was an interview we did just weeks after the coup developed and we had talked with chiptune about how he was responding and what he was doing, how he was taking part and actually leading some of the nonviolent demonstrations in the street. And I had asked you tuned to listen to that interview again, before our current conversation. So it would be fresh in your mind and and would you be able to hear yourself from a year ago and reflect about what the conversation was about and how you feel about it now maybe how you've changed or shifted. So you have had a chance to listen to that conversation again, recently, just a few days ago, a year has passed since we talked What stood out in your mind as you were listening to that conversation and reflecting upon what we talked about last year.
Chit Tun 07:15
When I listen my interview against the time, like how can I say I endorse kind of power, like from my interview, you know, like at the time, I was really like, kind of quite strong. And also like I make, I made it very, like very good decision and kind of like, as a tie, like, I see like, honestly, for now, I see kind of sometimes I feel shame, like a little bit different. Like, for me, like I see another person, you know, when I listen my interview again other time but and offer thinking and offer like checking. Because because I feel like that. So I think what's the difference? Is it just a year. So an alpha that. Finally, like by listening my last interview, I got some strengths from it. And I'm quite sure, like I found my way more clear than before.
Host 08:41
What strengths did you get by listening to your interview?
Chit Tun 08:45
like kinda like, you know, now like this, I need to compare with this situation. For now, like, I'm afraid like to be a leader or I don't want to leave the people. This is my current mind situation, you know, but at the time, like I was designed, I would decide by mind, why my mind you know, to do anything. Like I don't have anything afraid or I don't have no feeling is already case. I have designed to give even my life at the time. Like kinds of things and now I was thinking I was like I afraid to leave the people like I'm afraid too deep in the revolution kind of these things are attack me so by listening my interview again like, Oh, I was just kind of present like this. So what, what made me like weak or what make me like kind of their present right now. I like such kind of question appears. And I think, again, it's an again, so that's fine. I told you, I informed my way. And I fall what to do more clear and clear. So, yeah.
Host 10:19
Right, so what you're describing are these kind of natural ups and downs in the course of such an emotional kind of journey that that everyone has taken in, in this revolution and and in trying to figure out what to do and how to do it and feelings of weakness and power, feelings of confidence and cowardice, feelings of highs and lows. And it sounds like you've you been hearing your interview at that time, there was a certain energy and hi to it that, that at the moment, you were listening, at least, you didn't share. And so it was going back. But another thing I'd like to ask about is, when we spoke before, you were kind of caught up in a number of things that were taking place that I think even you didn't understand. Because everything was so sudden there what there was a sudden takeover by the military, there was a sudden response by the people in trying to figure out how to respond, there was a sudden fear and strategies that were developing simultaneously. So there was a lot of spontaneous and naturally occurring things that were happening on all sides. And that led to you suddenly being thrust into the streets and playing a leading role giving climbing on top of vehicles and platforms and giving speeches and promoting non violence and, and defection of police officers and, and other things. But at that time that it was happening, you you probably weren't aware of everything taking place, you were just responding in the moment to something that had happened and trying to figure out the best way to deal with that with being totally unprepared for that kind of situation. Since that interview, over a year has passed. And we're going to get a bit into your journey, both your your outer journey and your inner journey. But before we get there, you've had a lot more time to process and think about and talk about reflect how things have developed in ways that you may not have understood in the moment they were happening. So as you listen back on an interview you you also have a certain kind of perspective and maturity. Even though it's only been a year that's passed, that's been a long year, that's really been about 10 years in normal times, given just how much things have taken place. You've you've really grown in age, I'm sure. So as you listen to that interview with much greater wisdom, maturity age perspective, were there things that you noticed in the interview, where you had a greater sense of perspective and maturity that you you understood or thought about that you didn't quite grasp in the moment when you were talking? Because you were so caught up in the moment?
Chit Tun 13:10
Yeah, like, at that time, like you know, I we will we will leave our thinking at the time we were thinking like we have never as reorient about the teacher ship. And other time we didn't exactly know about who is the dictator what like, like that did it hurt what kind of person like this, you know, before around the ATA, you know, at the ATA cases, the fall like they faced with the tiger shoelace, period that did take her. But for us, they're kind of just the experience, like we learn by reading we learn by listening at the time we feel like kind of emotion but we don't have like kind of physical experience or kind of that things but when we faced with a dictator like kind of military coupe in 2020 fast you know, at the time we've we feel and we thought that detector human with her like this and also you know other other like the first day or military coup for detector announced like general male like he said we need to take the responsibility for the country because of like, the wrong voted especially the point out that things and also like kind of like, you know, not he's He told everything is a lie. But we thought that, okay, if we make a prove, if we make a prove that we, we didn't accept him, we don't agree with him, like, we don't agree totally with him like this. So at the time I was trying my best like to stimulate all the people like they're, they're like, kind of they have the emotion with that they know like making a military coup is like kind of leading to destroying the future of the people, by the time we respond like a, like a kind of human way, they will choose the kind of like peaceful protesting, and we just show that and we just prove them that we don't accept you guys, we we cannot serve you totally, we prove that, that this is Chi at that time. And also like most of the people in Myanmar, like at the time the be told that they have although they have the plan, they have the future. But Thea quite? How can I say narrow about it? You're quite narrow about like, about human about the religion, about the kind of about the nationalities quite narrow. Oh, but they forget everything other time they, they just focused about the military coup. But after 1000 years, everything has changed. Because like, as you said, kind of you look like I'm more relaxed and quite different from the first interview visit because like military coup is like just a case. But behind it. There's a lower long history. There's a lower case it there's a lot of bulks, we didn't dig it. So now like along the a year of the revolution, like we take the box, about the conflict, about nationalities, about the conflict about the conflict of the religion, and like about the conflicts between people between the armed forces we want as long as we family or more or more and as long as we deal with them deeper and deeper. Like you know, when I listened my interview, some time, like make me smile, sometimes make me laughed. You know, like some high like, kind of the thing happen. Other time? Yes, I eyes, I feel a lot. But like, more emotion is more. But now I know that like to make better, or to make to create a better war. Better World. Like we need more time. Yeah, kind of this thing.
Host 18:25
Thank you for that. So when you listen back on that interview from a year ago, and where you're describing it today, is it fair to say that you feel that there was a bit of naivete at that time?
Chit Tun 18:38
Yes, of course. I was naive. You can say that. I was naive about the taker. I was naive about like, you know, the conflict between nationalities and I was naive or I was quite immature about religion or like, kind of this thing. Yeah. Kind of stupid. You know? Kind of Yes, yes.
Host 19:08
How are you naive? What in what ways do you feel that you were naive and that you I guess another way to answer this question or to ask this question is In what ways do you feel you've matured in the past year that in listening to this interview, you realize a maturity you have now that was clearly not evident, then How have you grown? How are you not? How have you been able to see your naivete?
Chit Tun 19:33
Yeah, how? How was the way I was naive is kinda like its horse you know, in torque. Very simple way. Like all the people are like against the military and even for the kid we like, even for the kid can can think about it like the military coup is no good. Like dictatorship is no good. So because of that, One like against it against them. And including me, you for me also, like even I risk everything to against them. Like and also i, i know and i believe like an iron taught like all the people we we think the same like us like but surely there's a lot of kind of there's a kind of things that I didn't understand the you know in like about two against the dictatorship so like other Rakhine State No. Like they didn't like the protest, the progress and the show like kind of the kind of the they show they didn't accept a dictatorship. They didn't serve that particular but not very strong or like most of the people in Rakhine state they didn't protest or kind of these things. And also in our other part of the Myanmar, there was kind of the thing but on a slowly each area, and especially is blown in Korean state, but about the Rakhine State because I know I know about the Rakhine State because my friends was there. And also, like we do, there was a group of friends, and we did to against the military together a lot and they was there. And according to their experience, and for not so, you know, like, before the coop, before the military coup, they have already like, most of the people, most of the people they know that like military coup way happen again. Like sooner or later. Sooner or later, they knew that kind of these things. So it's her iOS knife in that way. Yeah.
Host 22:13
So it sounds like you're describing two kinds of naivete. One One is your naive about. There's a naivete that in the belief that you felt at the time if you simply do the right thing. And enough people do the right thing. The dictators are humans, and they'll generals and soldiers are humans. And they'll understand that this is not wanted and and that they'll step aside. And so there is a naivete about the mindset and the humanity and the reasoning of some of these people in the military. But then it also sounds like there was a much more personal naivete. And you you've just kind of touched upon these themes without going into detail. But you've talked about the idea of nationalism, of ethnicity of conflict of what happened in previous crises, like conflicts like in Rakhine State. And so it sounds like there was not just a naivete about the humanity of the others, but there was also a naivete within yourself and people you knew about what was really happening in your country and what kind of country you wanted to build. Is that correct to say?
Chit Tun 23:22
Yeah, yes, it's kind of that way.
Host 23:27
And so looking at that personal naivete, which is different than the naivete of, of, of your assumptions about dictators, it's a much more personal and sensitive and vulnerable kind of thing to look within, as far as you're comfortable and sharing what what have you uncovered in yourself about examining your own past assumptions or belief or biases, what How have you grown and understanding the the, the nature of the country and the peoples around you and the kind of society you want to build? How has that shifted?
Chit Tun 24:05
Like, you know, in, in Yammer, like Yeah, like a kind of, you know, everyone knows us like, memories respect, and most of the mirror people are like Buddhist, and they believe in Buddhism and also like, they worship the monks kind of the things and also according to the Buddha teaching, like we are very like kind of like you know, everyone know that everyone everyone heard the five preset, they have already DiGeorge find this Oh, kind of these people they follow the rules like this, but core and as my experience This is like Nimmer people or like quite similar with other people that people want to like the people want to live freely and kind of these things that people want to grow freely, but according to the like, according to the country or as my Athenian normally most of the people in Myanmar are like quite emotional and also like quite tensed you know, chess I mean is really sensitive, like about the religion because, along the history, the dictator used religion as a to like, you know, they used the NOC they use the famer Mark about the, for their power, they use the pagoda for their power and they used kind of voter teaching for their power. This is along the history. Like you can, you can see that a murmur there's a lot of influence about the Amish tradition and not Burmese tradition like kind of like Buddhism, you can see the influence or the Buddha is in like, but the leader at the time the leader I mean, the leader at the time is like dictator, dictator, no well about Nimmer people situation remember people might end the day quite know well, how to manipulate the people with the religion like and also they are not brainless, you know, they know rainless, they have the master plan to conquer the Myanmar people like along their generation. Like one day, May the military crews around ATA like the not they are not educated person, but I told you they know well how to manipulate the people like the destroying first they destroyed the education. Like the price the university depressed, the like, teachers, and they make like you can end all the day you can see that like kind of education, education, like educational universal for st is in downtown, and other like famous Technological University in downtown's and the rest of the university like all day, around the countryside, you know, kind of these things like so. Now, today, the people are quite sensitive about the religion around my people also even like kind of the monastery I lived is like, honestly, the Hey, the Muslim, you know, like, you know, that like this, it Mapa you know, at the beginning, like, I thought in for like, he was right, because like, kind of even I have even I have like is maybe he was about when I was when I was 13 years old. You know, like I saw like kind of video, like mostly cut the throat kind of like they kill the people. So at the time, even when I see my friends like Muslim friends, I'm afraid you know, I'm afraid then like kind of these things and also behind the fear there's hate we hate them. Like at the time we fear and also you know about their other Rakhine state this is quite famous now quite famous is I cannot use like, famous Dezik kind of reputation, bad reputation. And or like about the rowing, rowing people. You know, at the time when the military won the war won the war, like won the war, excuse the military general literary journal comm come to like hi CJ and faced with the because you they did a crime or they did like ethnic cleansing kind of the thing The time like the people in Myanmar I joy it was around like who's only 20 Is it for 2019? Like the the ICJ call the general to face their crimes kind of me and like the people in Myanmar most of the people in India especially like kinda like Yangon region Mandalay something like that guy something else like these people what did they do? What do you think?
Host 30:27
Quite quite supportive in my memory? Of course,
Chit Tun 30:31
of course these are boats to whom this of all the military base support the like kind of these things but but like I thought I think I may online thought that this is the kind of support to him. But not that way, you know, like other time we trust the answer in Soo Ji so much. And also she like she decided to face this crime at a time we support her. We Subu or and we trust her. So, because or we risk her heart, we cover it the army, like kind of like, you know, we thought that this is the way we think is like, kind of like nationalism, this is our country, this is our people and this is our army, you cannot judge by and live it is kind of that way. Very nice. Yes, very nice. Other time, like this kind of that way. So kind of these things happen. You know, so around the people me is like Thea quite sensitive, but in other way, the essence be quite sensitive about the religion or like kind of nationalism. But in other way, they're not kind of ego people or they know kind of bad people. They're kind of in their heart, whatever the set like mostly are about our rowing or but that in my environment, they are Laura's people who support the Rohingya people like that, who make the donation to them, you know. And also, like, even my monastery, I remember that, like, Make a donation at a to the Muslim people like so how can I say is hard to difficult, but in Nimmer, most of the memory people especially bomber, like Burmese people have, they have kind of like, kind of I don't know how to say it. They've defeated themselves like, impressive, I think. They believe in bodies in and like in Yammer, like they don't have space for other religion, or they want democracy. So kinda like kinda thinks this is Sunday, you know, at the time, we thought we were right. But now you can see and I'm laughing, right. So that, that kind of these things happen. Yeah. So the mind is kind of like this.
Host 33:21
That's it's really interesting to hear you say that because you're when you're describing your background, you're someone who is you're a Burmese Buddhist, but not just in a more conventional way, you you really do try to adhere to the tenets of Buddhism, you follow these five precepts, you've spent so much of your your young years at a monastery where you even as you were developing a career in Yangon, you would go back to the monastery to use your English skills to teach English to many of the young monks and the poor kids in the area on supporting the say it and you as we talked about, in the last interview, a year ago, you also you were in a monastery that was was so remote and so peaceful, really that that foreign meditators and monks would end up there and they would take care of them. And so you really have this true Buddhist, these you really adhere to the core of these Buddhist values. It's not just a religion, you you really believe in the and try to follow to as far degree as possible, the Buddhist teachings at the same that's in the spiritual realm and in the political realm you from from before the coup developed, you adored Aung San Su Qi she was a hero an icon she a symbol of the world they a representative of the people, someone that you held very dear and very close to heart in in the respect and the the adoration that you and the and and the appreciation that you felt for her. So it's interesting because when the coup hit, I think you You were in this this somewhat awkward position where at the moment you maybe didn't realize the contradictions this person who is yourself at that time who's protesting the the military takeover you yourself are holding a fear that the Muslims might might be causing some kind of problem in your country and with your faith and that you're you're holding on to Aung San Su Qi is this this, this pillar, this example? Without question of, of her of her motives, or her reasoning, and I guess somewhere throughout the year, these two conflicting sentiments start to clash with each other. And as the revolution progresses, you start to realize that the military that you're trying to take down and the new society you want to build up on one hand, but on the other, you start reflecting on some of the attitudes and assumptions and beliefs that you yourself, were holding, and I guess you realize there's some contradiction there is, would that be correct? To say,
Chit Tun 36:05
yes, yes, I, I have, I need to talk about this, because you know, like, to grow a tree, you need to see right. To be a tree, we need a seat, you know, like, see, it should be a good one. So, so if is, like, if the seats tied, stuck around, like, if we appear the like country, you know, like a kind of a symbol like that. They did, like Johnson Suchi like, she like she's trying to she trying to plant she trying to grow and she bought many seats, you know, like, from 2015 to 2020. Like, she grow many see, like, the kind of these thing and I have already mentioned you like, I trust her, and I believe her and I admire her because, because, like, you know, because of what she did, and what she say, kind of these things, sometimes, like I don't understand what I don't understand why she do that. Like, why she did such kind of thing. Sometimes kind of the thing happened, I will give you the example, before I gave you the example, let me clear about the what is why I why I believe in Buddha, you know, like, I, I was I was a Buddhist, because my mom, she was a Buddhist. Like, my dad, he is a Buddhist, kinda way, but like, you know, as a child, nope, I don't care. What is like, what is the Protestant? What is the Muslim, I don't care, your friend, my friend, okay, that's fine. If we can play that's good, kind of that way. But when I was 11 Yeah, when I was 11, my father passed away and my address brother he was talk in Thailand as a how Walker and we lost the coalition about changes. But I'm past I'm past my life. Like with the Buddha teaching, because I'm quite close with a monastery, you know, I grew myself with the Buddha teaching even before like, you know, I trust in karma, because of the Buddha teaching, I was trying to be clever and then my friends in school and try hard in school, because Buddha teaching now because So, my mom she, she like, free after like, after my debt after my dad, like, he passed away, like my mom have to run the whole family. So, she has to run for like four hours school cause for our like fu or for everything, she has no time to teach or to show the way or to make the guidance for our life. She is not also kind of that person, especially my like, you know, like a family in memory, you know, that like, quite different from the worst. Like, in mirror like father is kind of like he responsible everything. Especially he ran for financial and he made a kind of eating like my mom like, like mothers are the to care the family and they make mother make the family more warmer, more happier, father make the family more safer, kind of these things. So like, because of Buddha I was a clever person, because of Buddha teaching. I like I, I make the right decision, I could make the right decision. And I follow the Educate, I follow and I in trying to censor it, by education kind of these things. That's why I trust so as for Buddha, but you know, I also, this is my kind of like my habit, you know, because I have no further scenario machine, like, I'm more precious on my friends or like, kind of, you know, I have a kind of, like, more, more familiar or more attached than normal to the friends to friends, or like, the people who like, around my environment kind of that thing, so I don't care. He is mostly in or not, like, you know, I don't care, here's like creation or not, you know, when I was young, I want to chart with my friends. And you know, I want to, like more, but I cannot go in, when I was young, like kind of this play or a weekend play, we we can eat kind of that way, but they're just a memory when we grew up, like, we, we start, we start, like we start phasing that kind of like manipulation, you know, and also like, kind of, you know, and measure. And also like, kind of this is our ego, I think, no, there's no, I think there's a quite a few are kind of our ego, like because we trust, we trust the monk and if the one you trust is wrong, we are also quite sure to be wrong, if you if we don't think kind of that thinks they said the way or interest in Buddha. But we in other side, like when you ask, when we grow, like we feel more like we have kind of, you know, we are more kind of like ages, like we have more and more haters on other religions when we grow. And about the Donson Soo Ji, especially the military manipulate above heart with Muslim because like to make to make during the election, like the military makes propaganda about she she took the support from the Muslim and she tried to make in the country to Muslim country kind of that way. You know, so, like, we we are afraid not we especially like a monk, we trust the Aframe more, but I'm told you like between the 2015 and with only 20 stores and Suji she like she did kind of like you know, meditation retreat or kind of ceremony that for all religion, you know, like in for all religion. And in that religion like the monks st lace like marks like senior monks and occasional monk and Muslim monk and he knew something like that, like for the senior people or they're in upper upper seat or upper level and ground where they're like on ground the novice with the novice and also kind of followers at the time military took the photo to manipulate like on ground the novice or a city like the Muslim mark and Christian monk or on the sea at the time he said to the oh look, this is kind of the things are happening. These are happening in Myanmar and later on, if you like acept kind of that things the country would change into kind of Muslim or like other religion way influence us. So, like I because because I heard kind of that thing a lot. Because, you know, I told you like last interview I told you like I spent about a six years six year like in monastery before before like I'm I'm not quite I know quite like I'm not for it from the monastery it is quite close for me. So, like I have already I have I have the kind of the I have already hard kind of like propaganda, you know, sometimes they use the line and like kind of propaganda the same as like like, you know, the same as happening in Iraq. Like the kill the people by cut in the throat or the shoot stone to the people like kinda these video file are quite good too for the military for the monks kind of that way but under the like democracy government kind of they have no they have no like for the senior monks they have no special chance for them, but you no one under the military like to enter the military government, they have the chance like if you are very famous if you have the follower, if you have the follower, like if you are the monk, if you have many followers, you have the other 82 like us the authority, oh, I want that I need to build the building here yet. And after that the guys from the military did it like very powerful amongst a very powerful immune armor. But under the like democratic government, their power getting, you know, guarding like less and less and also the leveling with the other religion leader. So either time, the most important thing become is like mortality and kind of that thing just like who did, there's a lower amongst also a Myanmar who follow the Buddha rules and they're very like, sporadic and you know, like, and they make without saying anything, just by looking down such kind of murder or just by looking then make the people feel like calm or peaceful or a kind of these things, if the monks follow the Buddha route really and deeply kind of these things. So, like, the monks who have the power, who have the power like kind of power, like without, No, we cannot say that illegal or not legal or illegal. Like, as long as the famed amongst a famous, they feel like they thought the more powerful. So kind of these kind of these thing happening. You know? So, like, at the time, we don't like it, but we have a kind of heart. Ah, okay, we are voted in we have to respect the MCC, we have to follow what you're saying what the detail, kind of like these things are, like happening before the coop for now, but now, no evidence has changed by 10
Host 47:42
Right. So, so, what what was it like for you someone that is that takes the precepts, so seriously that that really tries to be a good Buddhist and incorporate the Buddhist teachings in your life to realize that the the your own government, the military was manipulating the faith and the belief and the fears of Buddhists in order to profit themselves, how did it make you feel over the course of the last year, when you started to realize that the leadership was manipulating the Buddhist faith of the people in order to control and rule further
Chit Tun 48:26
when I see like, like, you know, for this for this, I will I will tell you about a experience. Like before I before I tell you, sorry, your last question is like a whole home would you like to be kind of the country? So, I will, I will we will not I like the people and also there's a lot of my friends who will I try and like No, no one is above the law. So kinda thinks we will create kind of that country okay. So, like not no one would get more chance because he is voted in because he is Muslim because he is growing you know, all the people will be the same and all the people have to like kind of that way they should have their they should have their right. I like on our era, you know, on our country. Like now we are trying to build we are trying for that country let me share my experience when I walk in a company so like my boss, they arranged like a trip a trip like for the for the step you know, like in Chris on Christmas. So the like, for three days so they make a trip for the stuff to a beach. But I didn't go to the beach. Like, I went to the I went to the meditation retreat for three days, three days, I let it go my chance to go the beach with my like, I call it, you know, what find people in walk. So does, we'll be there quite sure will be arbitrary, but I want to the ministration to retreat, meditation retreat because you know that retreat is like the is up, there is a kind of retreat that about five different five different they separate into the separate the retreat SEBRAE the meditation retreat into different five parts according to our ages like but I wasn't there, but I went there for meditation retreat, because I respect the monk so much. So much because he is trying to make the youth better and better and he is I believe he is trying to make the make the use to be a better citizen better country. No, I understood that he is just trying to make make, he just trying to make the followers I thought he just using the Buddha route as a to as a true, he did a lot of good things and admitted he did a lot of good things. He said a lot of good words. But now I I feel that way. He just using he just used the Buddha. Kind of like you know, because because because he make he made a kind of like, he made a kind of like, how do you say that like to people to understand all the people kind of make a blessing, you know, kind of make a blessing, you know, like sending like making, making this making the like chanting or like kind of blessing at the ceremony of the dictator. The change or the teenager that dictator trying to like, make a donation at the Agora they believe and that monk, that monk support him. And also there's a lower use, well prison because of protesting. There were a lot of the people who will attend his retreat. There's a lot of people who die. There's a lot of people who were raised by the military, but he said nothing. He said nothing, that monk, nothing about it. So that makes me really surprise. That makes me really surprise. He is quite famous. Now I told, you know, if I talk about the retreat, so like law if the Burmese if the Burmese like people or if it's use the young people around 20 If they listen, like they will know what, what manga is, and also kind of to CRO, oh, we respect so much. And also they are kind of really expensive monk, really expensive monk to make the kind of Dhamma talk, you know, that's really expensive. If you want to make a demand talk to him, you have to pay for the 100,000 jet for him. For him, that's kind of thing. So, you know, but but we do, we find we trying to make, we try to like invite him to make to give a Dhamma talk or something like that, you know, this is no kind of like, I'm no blame. I'm not blaming my blaming the Buddhism. No, no, if you think that way, you were very narrow and you're very immature. I just pointing out like kind of people who are like, who make me, oh, I follow that. I am Buddhist. And I have I might follow the Buddha teaching. But that's make that remind me to Don't, don't to blind don't do blind. Like, kind of that teaching gave that kind of that lesson gave me after the coop. And also there's a lot of other monk like they're very respectful, you know, very respectful. Like, we didn't we didn't know we didn't know but although they didn't involve like they didn't protests, bro. They didn't protests. They didn't say anything about about the military coup, but they did. Like they did like very deep, very deep kind of loving kindness and you know they did like it trying. They are trying the best for like they are trying to practice in the form Buddha rule, because to make the people more peaceful and more to get more people relax, and, you know, like, the people are already tired, even in our normal life. Now more people are like, they like a deer. How can I say? Like, they're dying, they are dying, because tie it very tired. They're they're, like tire nearly to death at a time. If Kyle hit his, like, mental support will be like, kind of relaxed or kind of peace. Kind of these men are also a lot. It said, Okay, people like, yeah, we understand like you are doing the best for the country. Okay, does you're right, but you don't have you don't have to give your body so much burden. You don't have to like, you don't have to Hong can I say you don't have to punish your mind or you don't have to So rest your mind with pardons. No. Just trying to relax and try to think and make calm so that we make you more clear. And that will make you that will make you to see more opportunity, like to wing that additional detectors should kind of that way. Also there's a laurel monk here. So like, that's why before I was thinking about raising is perfect. And also there, I realized that there's a lot of pages that I didn't read that I didn't want to read, want to read, that I didn't want to read. There's a lot of pages in Buddhism, kinda way. So I understood, I understood that. So like, oh, we are not perfect.
Host 57:00
And so what does that make you think about your own personal Buddhist faith going forward as well as the role in Buddhism in the country? In other words, do you feel that? There there's a way to separate some of the historical teachings of the Buddha from the way the culture and politics have manipulated them? And if there is a way to do that? How would you map that out? And the new society that you'd like to see built? Where do you see Buddhism and the Buddhist teachings and the monkhood coming together with democracy and human rights and federalism? Do you think these things are compatible? Do you think they can go together? Or do you think that it's making you fundamentally evaluate some of the tenants of Buddhism and how to be a Buddhist?
Chit Tun 57:57
Like it? If I said that no, because, no because of the religion, I, I believe, or I worship, you know, I can tell that like, Buddha said, Buddha teachings are like, for all kinds of people are teaching for all kinds of people and he never said to hate the people. Which is different from you. He never teach. He never taught, like, kind of to celebrate other religion and to look down other nationalities or other religions. He never He never talks like that way. Because I'm quite sure with that. He never said that. Like if you don't believe me, or if you don't follow my rules, you will be you will get in trouble. No, his teaching is not like that. He like he has a lot of ways if you learn if you want to be rich in in your life, there's a laurel way in like, there's a lot of what he taught like he told you a long way to raise like you have to work hard or like you know, you will know that in like there's a lower costs to make you a better price than to make you a better person in your walk, to make your butter like leader in your, in your like in your job or in your like professional field or in your environment to make you happier and your to make happier your family. Like to be a better person. Kind of the things are, everything is already Buddha, Buddha taught and more or teach as long as you can, like explore his teaching. As long as you can explore his teaching. Like we like you will file viewer you have found out, we found out only things like, only thing we need is we need to how can I say we need to break? We need to be brave to speak the truth. We need to be brave to point out the true what is right or what is wrong. That's important. That's important. Like, you know, armies culture, oh, why members? Oh, I don't want to kind of that way. Like you know, so we need to change that habit, we need to rip out all these things. And we need to ask yourself, don't ask to the other, if you support the wrong person, if you support the like, you know, if you support the like the tailor, you are also kind of the tater, you will also like, you know, you're also kind of like the people who want a disaster kind of these things. So, like, you can continue the country know where the boat is in we will continue the country with the equality you can find out the equality in bogies in like, so just trying to figure out what he taught, you know, don't look the people like the people are like, how can I say that people are not all a race? Yeah. So trust your heart, and we can continue like whether equalities, like
Host 1:01:47
so. So you you just said that you want to continue the country inequality, not in Buddhism, meaning that the country is not built on Buddhist principles, as I understand it, it's built on principles of equality and fairness. The question I would have for you is, within this country of equality, as you describe it, is there a place for Buddhism? Is there a place for the Buddhist teachings is there a place for the monkhood and the reason I'm asking this is that the fear that the leadership has always used is that if we don't have a Buddhist country, if we have a country built not on Buddhist principles, but on principles of democracy or fairness or human rights or equity, this kind of then Buddhism will lose Buddhism will lose its ground, the monks will lose their importance and we will lose the faith of the Dhamma of the Buddha's teachings. And so this is very scary. So this is a in cycles of Burmese history and leadership, this has constantly been a fear that a more democratic and equitable country will result in a loss of faith in modern values and a loss of respect towards the monkhood and everything else. So in this kind of new society that you want to build, where fairness and equality are the important values, where is Buddhism's place in that society? And can it survive and continue to be valued in a society built on fairness?
Chit Tun 1:03:22
You know, very good question. And also, I'm willingly like to answer like, like, you know, there is no place there is no place like for Buddhists in or we test does no need, we don't need to like have like Foley's like this display, like this area is for Buddhism embolus people, this area for Muslim, Muslim, like, like, the people like who believe the mores in this place, is for a Christian, no, no, we are designed by heart. So, if the Damar Damar is dharma means truth, and like loving the truth, you know, like loving or true or kindness that way, if in your heart, as a teaching or the Buddha, like, this is this is like, what is there is Buddhism. Like, there's the place the place for the Buddha is in is your heart, our heart, like, if you follow the Buddha rules, if you follow like, if you believe in Buddha rules, this is kind of like having, like, this is the place for the Buddhism. So you don't need to, like kind of special place, whatever, like the people can think, you know, we don't need to be afraid for that. This is a phrases came from like, kind of a free came from. They don't believe them, so like, they don't believe them. So, such kind of, like emotion came from this It does it the key point the minute them military did. This is the key point the military did you know? Yes, corruption, corruption like military make creation is right. To think that people The corruption is right. Like, other time that people became one they see kind of the people who very rich, they impress. So demonstrate remake that people like money and power can make the people right? No, that's exactly wrong. For me, the most important thing is like to respect the people and each order like to make the people more peaceful to build the people to build the peaceful environment, kind of these things are like, the same kind of these things are the teachings of the Buddha set. But you know, not a goal, okay? Now the goal of the Buddhism, but his visit principle or the way to make a peaceful world to make the better war. So wherever you are, like Russian or like, wherever you are, like Muslim, or like Hindu or wherever you are, in your heart, in your heart has a peace in your heart. There's a heart that love the truth. In your heart, there's a like, appreciates the humanity. If you're in your heart, there is a compassion. Yes, you're kind of Buddhist.
Host 1:06:45
You would you would reference before you said, you said something like you that if you support an oppressor in any way, then you are also an oppressor. There's also something of a dictator inside your own heart. Yeah. So as you look at the changes you've gone through in the last year, have there been some moments that you've uncovered? In your own heart, not in the country, not in other people, it's easy to point fingers and look at what everyone else is doing wrong. But have there been moments you've looked inside your own heart and realized there's something of a dictator, there's something of an oppressor in me, I have also carried attitudes, and promoted attitudes that have harmed other people out of my own fear or ignorance. Have you had any insights or moments like that in the last year?
Chit Tun 1:07:35
That's your kind of like, yeah, I have kind of that, that feeling. You know, like, if you support the people who make it will make wrong, you're also kind of that people, you know, you support it. But as a follower, they have the chance to think about the leader, like kinda as I mentioned, like, the who trust, you know, for me, I try so much, that kind of monks, you know, like that kind of senior monks, oh, I trust him so much. He is, he respects Buddha so much, and he followed the Buddha so much. But when I found out what he did, when I found out what he did, so I realized that Oh, no, is fake. He just precious he just value his power. Is Buddha sin, not Buddha teaching kind of that way.
Host 1:08:36
Right. I want to shift the conversation a little bit because we've been talking a lot about your growth and your observations and your awareness. But I want to move to more personal on your story. Because in the last interview we did we really talked about your your background and family growing up and the difference that you personally experienced under dictatorship and under transition. We looked at what was going on in the streets. I mean, when we recorded the interview you you were you were literally like your voice was hoarse, you know, like you, you were exhausted. You had sunstroke, you You weren't sleeping very well, the Internet was cutting out. So you were actually that was a very kind of live action interview. And you were you were in the middle of constant activity while you were recording and talking. And I think that interview really kept also captures your mental state in your activities at the time. And when that interview left off, we don't as listener base. We don't know what happened next. We don't know we know that. Historically, in Myanmar, what happened last year, we know that there was a a violent crackdown on the protests. The protests, up to that point had been very been all nonviolent, peaceful and, and your interviewer certainly attested that you you talked with pride about the the nonviolent spirit that people had and as you've mentioned now a bit of naive And believing that that would be enough to let the dictator step aside that the the will of the people will be were being heard. But the interview was published, right when I think soon after it was published, the the military really started to become violent, and people can no longer take to the streets, which was what you had been doing for days and weeks leading up to that interview. So that's what most of the interviewer focused on. Since that interview over a year has passed. So as far as you're comfortable, can you tell us what happened after that interview in your life, what decisions you took and where your path went? After we spoke,
Chit Tun 1:10:39
it's heaven a lot. That's it. I'm joking. Of course, a lot. Like we we really focus for peaceful advertising. Because at the beginning of the conversation, I told you, I thought, the details for a human know, like, now for now, like, the details to make me what is the difference between human and animal? That make me you know, because let me explain you, like, it's the people don't, like, Don't think, don't think to double down so or to double off their environment. Or if it's the people if the if a person is just doing, he eat, and he sleep, and he makes an assault. So he just kind of like, animal is not a human, he's just doing the kind of animal the things. This is like what we think, but the dictator are, like, worse than an animal. Because they did. They did, like, they did a lot of bad things for the human. You know, like, Now now, like, the whole war is supporting the Ukraine. Why? Because they don't like kind of like the teacher, you know, this is 21st century row. This is not the place for the detector, because the people knowing how what is the detector is kind of that way, like the data are they don't care about other people, they don't care. Like their consequence, or what they did, kind of these things are, like, make worse than the animal. That's why I told you, like, I'm told you also, the detector announced they take illegally, like country powers, because of the round voting and like, wrong election that people doing, like the people doing the bad things in the country. That's why they have to take over the country power. No, that's why we did we make a peaceful protest. But like, we are living not like, single nor like, we are not living as like in the war we have not only Maria Maria, you know, there's a lot of other country and also we are the member or like United Nations. So, like, we are protesting and we we are like adding like a human. We are adding with honor. Kind of the way during the protesting we never did against like kind of aggressive or semi Oh, no, I can guarantee it above that. Very peaceful. Like we say we sing the song about the revolutionary songs and also we protest what we want. And also even I last interview I told you, you know, like we arranged for the for the protesting that arrangement is like kind of like even we care about the result because of our protesting. I don't want we don't want like the roaches block or something else like we arrange with the stream like to make systematic heli protesting, peacefully protesting and after protesting, we have a team to pick up the kind of waste like plastic bag or like, like, you know, kind of that thing. We care everything that we did with honor and we respect them, whatever. Although we know that they did. very worst thing, but like, we we show, we show our humanity like we show what we deserve. Like the dictator, they have no idea what are we doing? They just they see us, like the people who are against them. The people who block in they are way higher testing. Only they thought like that. We didn't know at the beginning.
Host 1:15:35
We didn't and so what? What did what did you do then? What? Since we left off in that interview over the course of the past year, where did your journey take you?
Chit Tun 1:15:44
Yeah. One like the military kill a lot of people for the peaceful, peaceful protester you know, you guys what? We never let it go the peaceful protesting, you know, because we cannot walk. We cannot like make the walk protesting. We protest with motorbike. We protest because with a motorbike, they cannot like catch us kind of the thing we protest. And also, like in in my in my township there's a full Ward So like we we submit the photo protester and we protest in a word like the police and soldier come to arrest that protest. So we protest in another way. We had the condition each other kinda way and we make the kind of like protesting like without people we arranged the letter we arranged the like kind of side note for them kind of that things but they're like the soldier a soldier and the police are more races aggressive and people are more die and die and die. We really doubtful about like, like people protesting is is is the answer without that so other time we I was planning like we make I told my friends like to make a discussion to make a meeting like with my friends like the leader of the Student Union we make immediate friends a friend home that night that night military God the new for that and they came we they came to arrest us like we're the fire trucks I think a lot of soldier but we will lucky because we have we got the phone we got the phone call from my friends rather than use a leak you have to you have to like run away right now. Like at the time we have or we are during the meeting. What will we do next? Like do we have to join the ethnic forces or do how do we do how do we continue that like protesting kind of that way we kind of these things are we will discuss in about at the night. Like the military like because of the phone core because of the phone call we like we forget everything and we wait behind the behind the house or my friends because it was already about 10:10pm at night. So around I think around like 11pm like the military. They have all the fire trucks they write they arrive in front of the house and they came in so we ran really we have already like behind the house so behind the How shall I lie so we have to sleep like you the old like the old tunnel like this is no rainy That's why no water no water in the tunnel. So all night we have to asleep in that tunnel. And like you know are the dog barking. We will lucky because the soldier talk the door bugging to them know us like that. We were really lucky that night. Like you know if we cast the night, we are only leaders. We are only Licious land we are planning how to do Andrew protesting kind of thing. So we were very lucky. So around like 4am for after that they ask the ask the parent or my friends and like where's your son, but they didn't know about our meeting. They they are trying to looking for only my friends. So at the time he that soldier didn't came to the backhoe their house, and they just asked and they spent about an hour house and they ask where's your son go that like kind of this thing and after that they go back but we do not to go back to the house because like we thought they might they might like leave or soldiers who check us or somebody else. So we wait until about four hour, four o'clock in the morning in the old terminal and after that so they thought okay, how do we How do we leave? No, no, no. Like I said, I told them like, they don't know, they don't know our major. And that's why they didn't find us, you can do this quite sure. That's why just go back with a motorbike. But like in the morning, I have a friend who has who she is working so nice. She has a CDN like CDNs from their like public hospital. And she told us she have a connection like with the with the attorney enfolds at Indian State, she said, are okay, we we have no time to consider. But you know, we thought okay, we need to, like we need to discuss, like, kind of that way. And we leave from the house in the morning. And like, we just got like, we split, we split all the people like and after that we make we data place, we did a place and we were together at a place in a monastery, they kind of joke in a monastery, we date at the monastery and like, we were planning to leave the pain state and like I flee pain state. On I arrive at again state like I have to. I attend I interned there, like administers training. Like military training for the for one and a half months. Like together with my, with my friends, like but we split into two groups, like we are like about 20 people. And we split into Ay ay ay I wit, I'm with like nine people and others 11 people. And you know, like, we went to the military training. And, you know, at the time, and after that, like 10 pandemic is quite severe. But after the after the military training, so we have no, like, we have no chance to fight. Like kind of the thing, and we have to stop and after that we got the chance because we were planning to make to make, I think if I'm set, okay, that that that is not okay to say, okay, so we plan, we plan like to better to make a better place in Indian state. And also in my Township, you know, like, make it to trying to make a to base trying to make it to base and like we arrange everything, like, we make a course for the military training, and kind of the thing. And also during, in stay in a clean state. Also, like as my hobby I teach, I teach and sometimes I make a volunteer as a clinic client or these AISD like, and I spent several months in Canaan state without fighting in our area, there was a serious battle. So like, we take experience, we experience two Buddle two but the one is like to take down the military base. And another is like defense, other time. Other defense. I was not there and like is there was my brother, that was my, like, my friends sent my friends, my friends, many friends and also like attendees from my course from like a military training course that we arrange. But that defense federal is like, quite how can I say? Honestly, I don't want to say that memory but is kinda there's a lot of people like this, a lot of people use die in that battle, you know, like, without fighting, without fighting, like I mentioned like that, by the way is like defense battle. According to his name, we have to defense, the military, like charging military, they charge it towards the base. So like, we have the defense where only 13 People at the front line in the morning. Only 13 people were against, you know, but before that day, there was like, there was a kind of like, there was a kind of branch kind of branch army, like from the iOS. They have like heavy weapons and they gave the help for the defense line. But like and, and the next day in the morning, they have no like, they didn't inform any data to inform to the like to other people and they move they've already moved only certain people. Certain people left a man these people test my brother, my friends, and also I've already lost connection. So you know, like they share their experience at the front line. Like always Mr. Denby will defense the base like they are opponents is with with like playing you know we played and also test like the SAT there was a saying like they said the same number the same number of the bullet the same number of bullet the armor we shoot is equal the same number or the heavy weapon armor that the minister used like this like 120 Mili like one to me he milli like 40 milli are like kind of quite similar as a bullet like they use a lot they look like the base or they mentioned that they look like bro they look like crazy. Like they look like crazy even they didn't notice we are stay there. You know what, like Amanda 13 People Amanda Italian people, one debt two is severe. And my friend hit that granite his arm. But they didn't die. But you know, the problem is no there at the base, there is like about 200 200 People like kind of the PDF 200 people deal with the west there without gain. And some of the people are like, they're waiting, they're waiting, like, you know, other border like the because the border is there only like a ravers a river is apart the border. So they will they didn't notice that they because they already hard like to ensure a heavy weapon. And the plane, they have already heard that. But they don't know. They don't have them. Like in military force we, we come to them. And even they don't afraid because they believe that, like the local he owes and negotiate with the army, with the military, they really kind of the way, that's why they didn't ran away, and they just wait I don't want to say that. Only because of the people who came back from the front line, they should move move everybody move. Because like militaries Academy, that's why they have to like, some of the people were like, there was a boat, there was a boat and they have to move with a boat Sam or like swimming. And also, you know, on the beach, only on the beach, like about 1617 years old, the old, like the US die on the beach, Sam or die in the water. Like, you know, like they saw the because like the river is not a big one. When they arrive to the other other side of the country. Like out of the country area. They can see them, they can see that they took over, they took cover and they can see them. You know, even sometimes, like there was a like refugee camp, there was a refugee camp. You know, even sometimes, like they said, like the Bulus and armo arrived at a refugee camp at the, at the gate around the gate of the refugee camp, they have to make the variable as a like, you have to make a very like kind of like sandbags are kind of the thing they mentioned later, but you know, like on a beach, they saw like very clearly, very clearly, like around like 6070 people that like you know, high school students only like kind of high school student data. They would like to join the PDF, but they die in water dine on the show. Kind of thing heaven on wrong. Stats kind of suck. You know, this is I don't want to blame like, I don't want to blame no one. I don't want to blame everyone or I want to blame no one. In that cases. I can just blame like myself. Like, you know, they, when I found when I like when I see my brother and my friend again like we cry and like we cry and like wish I oh you're lucky you live but I I saw the idea soulless I cannot see the soul in your eyes. You know when I talk about them when I talk about enemy two I find the same like although they came back without dying but like they did they don't like they look they don't look like happy they don't look like happy because of the leaf. No, they don't look like happy like they mentioned about that with tears kind of these things are happening and grown a lot I'm quite sure about that. And also there's a lot of other things she you know if I sell like that the Forca way like many hours a lot. I don't want to so like that makes me kind of like and also you know I have already a spirit on whether like, like address people like I saw the Rakhine on call like one of my friends and In the Kenyan state like he is, I, I was, we were we were, we were friends. We were friends only when I arrived at the Kenyan state. And he also he mentioned his experience when he was young, like, you know, when the airplane calm, they have to run away and they have to hide on growl. You know, as a Thai I know that, like the people like me lighter people like who live in the city if we, when we were young, if we see the plane, we have followed the plane, a hello, the plane were going like this. But for the other people know, quite different. If they see the plane, they ran a height. No, everything's different. And also, like for the game people, the they suffer a lot. They suffer a lot from the military. That's why, you know, although that, like, between like 2015 2020 Like, I know that a democratic government, they didn't get much chance, but only they got this like, kind of peace. They like their hope live again. Like, because I noticed that there was a like, big village with big house. They mentioned that Oh, rather before Oui, oui, oui. They're not to build a house or like, kind of to build like farm building because, you know, the areas are no look even to grow like paddy or corns or like beans. Like, it is really difficult because you know, that the soldier wants only they fight only they make a Buddle one like our like corn or mature, our like beans are mature, they just bend down, they just find out kind of these things. They're just minor. Like, I met a lot of people, but I met a lot of people, but these people have already lost even in each family. There's no family who does not like who did not like, who didn't lose one of their family members. Everyone lost one of their family member like some, some lady, they lost their father in battle with military they lost their brother, without like, without joining the military as a villager, they bring down and they like the how do you say that like we call the porter they get the porter I know how to say like the military, take military took the villager like to like to carry the armor or to carry their bags or like kind of tasting. And after the neighbor came back kind of the story or a story like a lot frequently. You know, and also some of the people like some of the people like to Thea varies the a very by like, they're very, like their very unground a life some of the people their very own ground alive. Why? I said why? Why did they do that? Because they found a kind of like, kind of iOS kind of iOS like member in the village. That's why the very the like the chief the chief or the village on ground life kind of these things. And also like they said like, like the people are hanging on on the on the tree and they should only like lag or AMS. They don't shoot to kill. They just shoot like so like human target. It's kind of the theme show, Jewel. Like I wrote my environment, kind of the story and kind of the thing that made me My heart getting harder and harder. getting harder and harder only list. You know what, when I see the fleece, and when I see that soldier, I just noticed, oh, I have to Caden kind of this idea in my heart only just only I think is oh, I have to kill them. Kind of tie not that or heaven to me. But, you know, like, I've already mentioned you that emotional doesn't work on ground. If you're very emotional, if you don't come, you will travel or you will make a trauma your team does is kind of the way our teaching we teach. Safety is the most important thing on ground in better or in your life. Kind of these things so I don't want to you know, so like yours or revolution is like that make me like that make me different person? I think Sure. They think yes.
Host 1:34:48
Yeah, I can imagine that. Yeah, and I I don't even as someone myself who hasn't been through that it's it's hard to know exactly. How to respond to those having to face those series of events which no one should have to. I'm I'm curious about also and as far as your you feel comfortable sharing just the psychological or mental shift that needed to accompany your new role and your new work because you describe this incident where you're you, you're you're going out with your friends to do nonviolent protests, and then it becomes dangerous. So you start to get creative, you protest in places where the, the military isn't expecting you have motorbikes so you can't be arrested. And then they get more dangerous and so then you have a meeting where you're trying to figure out what do we do next? How do we go forward, they learn about that meeting and you literally have to run for your lives and hide and safety and the only way to eventually escape is to go to the the ethnic arm organization camps you go to Corinne state and since you're there you began undergoing military training and for the first time in your life again reference the beginning part of this conversation you come from not just a non violent background, but a a Buddhist background of doing no harm of not even not even causing not even killing an insect or lying or stealing something so you're you're now suddenly finding yourself in this arm camp learning techniques for causing destruction and death and then having also having to witness what the military is doing to your friends what learning about what the military has been doing to the ethnic communities for generations. And having to take part in not only the camps you're going through yourself as a student but you also become a trainer and you you train others and then you and then there's different operations and missions that that as you as you graduate so to speak as you become prepared you you or your friends participate in so this is quite a journey and one that I think very few listeners have ever had anything close of being thrust into and having and being confronted with and so I'm wondering psychologically and mentally the changes that you had to go through the the changes that you you went through and only realized later what actually happened, but can can you say something about what as as these external conditions were happening as you were undergoing these hardships? What kind of change did it require mentally or psychologically in the process?
Chit Tun 1:37:50
All kinds see. From do you say that cruel cruel was like like, crude oil is a bad thing, right? Like more dangerous to Tina,
Host 1:38:08
I think you feel that you've become more cruel. Is that what you mean?
Chit Tun 1:38:13
Yeah, I mean, like, because, you know, like, kind of like a soldier if I see a goat, you know, I if I see a goat like, like, I don't feel like it is a goat is the food kind of the thing. You know, kind of these things become because like I said, conversation this guy first right. But you know, like, along my journey, like I'm phrase a lawyer like, deadly, I passed I passed like deadly cases. Because like to stay Demetri torch, you know, during the rainy season before the end of the rainy season, so, we move we have to move, we have to move to like another place. This is apart from the like steam that steam is like, is quite, quite shallow during the summer. But this is very dangerous during the rainy season because of the like, Haley, like Haley raining water, you know, very, like very strong water. But we have to past that water with packages. We have to park we have to swim. We have to swing but I was I was thrown. I was drowning. I was thrown in that time. And I thought, Okay, I'm gone. I thought no, one of my friends tried to save me and I in trying to like train again and again. So I was saved. And also kind of the thing like, happening again and again in my life. And also we faced with a like, Soldier and we thought okay, we were gone. No other way like, but the like, we, we free, we will free, like the kind of these thing happen again and again and again. Like you know, and also like, during the course our causes no like proper. So that's why like facing a lot of difficulties kind of decent a lot and also nearly to debt, like one you like one I face kind of the thing again and again, I feel that, like my feeling getting changed, like and I ask what, what is important because before I'm really like, I really love to have the Nirvana you know, you might know that like someone will listen or also we know the Nirvana, this is the goal the boat isn't a place like a place or nothing like the middle of a place or like peaceful, quiet and no, like, no consequence or like, no suffering or no rich or no poor kind of that place, you know, this is my goal, I was thinking and like kind of belief and as a as a man, I would I follow the Buddha teaching as a man and like I enter as a mock, I will follow his teaching and to be a good monk and to, to like to reach I will try my best kind of the thing i i watched highly, I thought, I am kind of that person. And you can say that. I'm kind of strong Buddhist. But like now I know I and my understanding is getting changed. Like and I also I understood more and more to Buddha. Like, or is the most important things. Buddha always said the present moment is the most important thing. You can do nothing about your past. You cannot control your future, only you can do and control is your present. Like, the present is the most important because it's created the past and the future. So, like the present moment is the most important thing. And also, like, I need to like I understand that I need to make better person in day by day does it the most important thing I my life. Not important to be a monk or not important, like kind of the thing, day by day, to be a better president is the most important thing. We are kind of kind of that idea. That's why sometimes I feel that, okay, I don't care, the focus isn't or I don't care creation, or I don't care. Anything I care only is to be a better person, day by day, find the best for me, I I like I post I will pass fine Buddha teaching. Like kind of these things happen to me.
Host 1:43:23
And at the moment, I know that you're you're away from this, you're you're in a place of safety as sometimes being removed from something being removed from a situation that is traumatic, can bring up those bad memories and that trauma that was not able to be dealt with or processed in the moment because it was so painful. When when things slow down, and when there's silence that trauma becomes much more vivid and terrifying to go back and remember some of those memories and some of those incidences and some of the the pain and fear and suffering that one pass through. Are you finding that now? Are you finding that that some of the memories of the past year are catching up with you
Chit Tun 1:44:16
some of the memory cups with me about what
Host 1:44:21
I mean like some of the the darker, more painful memories that you couldn't really process in the moment that you're now that that it's a that trauma is now coming up and greater like that trauma is is stronger now that that has to be confronted.
Chit Tun 1:44:39
Ah, I know like before, like, you know, I told you like we agree with we support. We support the military and like we hate the Rohingya people. Like I hate people kind of these things, but yeah, of course, of course. Like that's why I told you like present moment The most important thing Yeah, like one use funny face with a depth, you know, like when you realize that, oh, I'm dying. She we know how I'm pretty sure the present kind of these things. So when I, whenever I think one of my mentors about that, but so that's why I told you like that this is failure make me closer, closer with a Buddha teaching because like nothing is important more than the present, the present moment is the most important one. Like, kind of these things like no like, kind of trauma is not like I'm feeling guilty about like living in say I live in a safe place. Like this kind of kind of deadweight. I feel kind of guilty about. Now I'm saying even like, you know, when I have good foods or kind of these things, I feel guilty kind of kind of like kind of Fromer happening to me now. Although, like, I've already decided I'm stay doing whatever I can for revolution, but because my difference and I also ask the person who like who's involved in very deep with the revolution, and now. So I am now I'm changed my way. But I never like I never let it go about the revolution. But I changed my way after seeing my son. And like, now and I feel like when I live in safe place, and like having good food kind of the same make me guilty. So yeah, if you can say that.
Host 1:46:59
Right, you reference your son, that's another part of your story is the birth of your son and being separated from him and your wife? Can you tell us what happened with as you had to escape the safety what was happening simultaneously with your wife who was pregnant at the time and what it was like being separated and her own safety at that time?
Chit Tun 1:47:27
You know, like, that's also kind of trauma. You know, like, I, although I'm doing like, all I'm doing as I can for revolution, but another side, I feel guilty about my family. Like I said, like the people around me, they said, or rather you could father like, You are the pipe, you are the kind of example for your son and like, your family were happy with me. But for me, no, I'm not that feeling. Because I'm not the kind of like a kind of man who leave, who leave his wife once she was pregnant. But one one point make me like, feel better is like, I don't want to, but I have to, like, kind of that things. Because my wife, she was a CDM she was a CMR. And also like, she, she has a lot of qualities to like, even during the project, I'm worried so much about her I don't allow to protest, you know, kind of the things and so and also she I thought that other time before I go to like a Wednesday, I just got with her. But even for me, I'm not sure what will happen next. So I cannot risk my wife. So I have to leave her in, in her parents village. But you know, because that because of me and my brother, my family like my mom and my sister like my auntie, they have to go to the the has been arrested by the police and soldier like many times, like three or four times and like, you know, but my sister is she's a student. That's why they didn't arrest for a night but my mom and their arrest like so but I told even like, we have a clinician but my mom says she is clever. And now she is with another marriage. So that one she has. She has a strong reason. She has a strong reason. So she said oh I have already with my own life. I have no connection with them. They are also with their own family and also they're angry with me because I married another guy and all their father. That's why coyotes they happen so a lot Last rule about the mentality a lot. So like even you know, I had to arrange kind of devote devote devote moment with my wife, because like, if a soldier inquire heart and if the soldier reach her like she can, she can show that like devolvement letter, I know that things but also sometimes, you know, like as a as a, as a woman, as a like, as a woman is not easy, no, it's not easy like to stand. And also like there's a pressure about her mother, father to kind of these things a lot and also she attracts, like, but before my son was deliver, so she called me like, can you come back? At the time is the most difficult time for me, you know? That makes me that makes me like tie it if I think that time and also like but I try and I try and you know, but everyone around me staff me, brother, no, you cannot go us already like all the older like police station you they have your photos and like they have your information. So you can unpause the game and we are quite sure that and kind of the thing. I let it go that that dream to to go back to my wife, because I have to I that I thought and you know, I have to because she was a further buying convict COVID-19 at the time before just only it's like, before she bet like only just one or two day or two days before the lever, she got a fire deck like she was positive. See what she got a further COVID at the time. So like the hospital or like hospital at a time they didn't accept COVID COVID parents, like COVID patient under the military, you know, like notice America, you know, there's a lower problem at the time, like the the she has a difficulty about the birth so I like she have a friend who is from the military and she know the doctor. And like she said she said she don't worry if you cannot come back is fine. Like I have a like connection with that kind of that way. He said that make me like, relax. Relax me. That made me feel better. Like because I got an offer that she delivered with a COVID but my son is really lucky. She was born in like Mayor de 19. July 19. July this is Mayor day. So very, like Mother's Day. Yeah. Laura day, right? Yeah, 19 July. So like, that's also kind of proud to me. Yeah. And, like, you know, she, and for me, for me, like I either time, I decide, I need to think I need to think about it because I made a promise to my wife, because I did this for my son for my son. But now he has already delivered to the war. Also to take ownership, like under the leadership, but I didn't achieve my goal that also kind of make me like, you know, I know make me cry, but it's fine. Because this is kind of my issue I cannot do my alo is kind of union work is kind of group walk. So in organization. So you cannot be like you cannot do like you cannot go as you want you have to look around you in Berlin and you have to negotiate with are the people like kinda way so I don't want to say that. But I promised my wife like, if my boss like like my son, I might sound like I don't want to leave my son and or like take your ship under the dictator so she asked me that. What will you do? Honestly, I have no answer for that. Even for my Oh, that's a difficult time. Like but I always I have always think about them and so and like after like having studying they're studying they're like, pedal around my place. So like offer that pedal I mentioned before you like defense pedal that makes It really feeds down because I am, I am communicating with the leaders. I'm communicating with the leaders, like from iOS, and from my, like, from PDF, kind of the things and I responsible for like communication. So I know very well where are they doing? What happening on girl? I know well, and also like kind of cases Amanda organization, you know, like, on the table, like they have a negotiation with like military guys and like, like yours, but in Asheboro growl that people are dying, especially the youth, the youth, they are risking their life, they're risking their life with a death kind of the same make me more like other time I decided that, okay, I decided that I need to change away. I don't want to, like, walk like this before I plan to go like a chain or like I'm trying to connect with them. But, you know, during the state, like the military, take control and growl. And it's really hard to reestablish, in state kind of the thing. And also it is, like, is heartful if I have to arrange, I think I might can go there. But you know, for me, for myself, I would like to change, like the way I'm doing because I've already risk like my life for a year. And I was deep and I knew like what happening on gras kind of like Loris Laura thing happening, you know, some time like because like the leader problems, they are responsible the people and the manipulator people, like kind of IOs are also like, kind of they are like they're against the military, but they have the kind of habit the military. So I, I feel like okay, I have to, I have to like, you know, I have to take, I have to take off my son and I finally got all this communication kinda way I think. But on other side, there's a lot of people who are risking their life, and hello to people who are really hard working for revolution, because of that, I cannot let it go my way. So I need to change. And I know the people who are really hard working, so okay, I discuss with my friends, I will leave, I will leave the country. But before I go, I would like to meet my son and like my son and my wife, and I like I arranged make them more safe. But when I see my son and wife so you know, I, I don't want to lose them again. I lost them one time. But now I don't want to lose them again. That's why I plan to like to take with me. Yeah. So she, so she came to me but like because of the CDM Ah, so she has to make a new ID and title these things but very lucky because of mine since he is only six months. That's why like at the checkpoint they passed, she passed easily. Yeah.
Host 1:58:34
I'd like to go back to something you've talked about several times through the conversation as well as just now as your role in some of this activity has been to, to really look at what the movement needs back best and to to find a way to adapt to those needs. And one of those has been to join the ethnic arm organization training and then to begin to undertake various defensive operations in the course of that role. Yes, of course, you're you're someone just on the ground as we say in English, you're something of a of a grantee or you're just a foot soldier who is following orders and trying to to carry out those orders as effectively as possible. But there are people giving those orders there is a leadership the national unity government, which is the the body that is representative the people has its own I believe it has 16 ministries. One of those ministries is the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Defense. The mo D is a ministry that's charged with looking after the resistance movement, the defending the peoples, the vulnerable peoples and villages that are being impacted by the tatmadaw. overseen the overall objective and strategic vision As someone who was actually on the ground and carrying out some of these missions, can you tell something about the relationship that your unit had with anyone in mo D, or the role that mo D, or anyone in that ministry was was assisting you in terms of training or material or funds or strategy? And what how, how exactly they were involved in, in overseeing or supporting the, the real courageous work that you were doing on the ground?
Chit Tun 2:00:37
How can I say, when I heart first from the like military site, he said, to the new, like, a new Jeep Nissan unique government, he said, like, only speaker, like their speaker government, like the government, from the government online, that so on ground, quite similar, no support from them. And, you know, even for the arrangement, everything's by our set, and, you know, we have to contact them. But there's a representative from them, but they're not walking, they're not walking, they are not really walking. Because of that we face even at the beginning, we face a lot of problem because of that, because we were waiting the plan from them. There's a lot of delays and like the original data between us like and ug and as a not really walking does kind of problem even not walking knows avoiding kind of these thing happening like former days. Like, you know, before, how difficult is like, even, even, even like, in downtown like we have to arraign kinda like our unit have to arrange the mission ourself supported and like finding evidence ourselves. Sorry, no, I was like, it is a supporter binder people, no, not and ug people from our township or the people like our friends or like our relatives, or like these people, they support us. Only like, we have to, but for us, like we don't at the beginning. No, we don't blame because we understand that this is the first experience for them. There's a mistake as a mistake, like kind of these things, but I didn't realize that they had all habits. They have the old habit and like the acting like 2015 to 20 No, this is no the same. This is completely different bro. No, this is no the same situation but they're acting like we like acting like as a government. Now, during these during these like situation is no like a time to act like a government to act to walk as like a friendship as a brother who like, you know, kind of like we have to walk with accommodated not with the order. We have to walk with her understanding kind of these things. You know, like at the beginning, they talk a lot but on ground they do a little test the problem I don't want to I don't want to say like other like other region because I don't know, but for my region and for my unit for my group know most of all from then like kind of the thing only they can do is B after that we have the clinician with a new G like only they only they arrange is like kind of gave that documentation like Wonder donor ask okay do you join with a new G Yes, we do look we have the documentation is signed by in the like rule Angola or something like this kind of only kind of the things so, you know kind of that things like can change. So, this is easy, why so difficult and why take time so, so long? To the thick to I think like is cheap for us, you know, day by day like our people are dying, dying and grow day by day that people are suffering day by day all the people trouble so like so if to answer your question like no support, no supporting but like they said again in present day like it we support it. We support the like the PDF on the sovereign. Like they said like some of the some of the PDF, I think all the gains. I'm glad for that. But I don't want to say don't be too late.
Host 2:05:02
So you feel from your experience of a year in being a member of a defensive force that you received not little support, it sounds like you received no support of any kind. From, from the Ministry of Defense, no support of materials of training of nothing. I want to I was thinking to ask you, what, what role would you like them to play? It seems like such something of an ironic question, because when I'm, I was going to ask a question about how to improve the relationship, but from what you're describing, there is no relationship there, there is no support or engagement of any kind with for the course of the year in what you were doing. So this is not a relationship to improve. This is something that sounds like it's it's been a pretty massive failure for a ministry charged with overseeing the overall defense of the country to simply ghost your group and to ghost you. What, having been someone that's been on the ground, what would an effective mot look like? What would what what what would you like to see from a leadership charged with overseeing the defensive operations and resistance groups in the country?
Chit Tun 2:06:32
This like, they look like I am, I just want to make them a question. Who they think like, a Modi is like playing? Like, you know, they thought this is a child play. Like, kind of the thing I don't want to you know, even allow a deposit loan a year, like, because of that, because of them only troubles only travelers, no support. Other time, you know, kind of like, we have no like, for Myanmar people is kind of poor things. Behind us only buck, that's it, you know, kind of these things so look, when you look when you look, we have only like and like a new G and Eugene and ug, like M od M OD is no walking so even sometimes we don't we don't see is like this. I'm doubtful about that. He just like his his apartment or not, kind of that things. You know. So this is like, I think they have to change a leader in the like Ministry of Defense, kind of the thing they have to more emphasized and they have to more work in like representative and relationship between the girl this is quite an quite this is quite important. Yeah, for them.
Host 2:08:02
Right. Well, as you mentioned a little bit ago, there's certainly hours and hours of conversation left we can have there's any one of these topics I think we can go into for its own episode, and I'm sure there are many incidences and things we haven't even brought up or discussed yet.
Chit Tun 2:08:22
Like, this is not this is like all the people are like quite similar, but the feelings are quite similar. Like, for me, I just want to say like three quite there's three kinds of people only I care you know, the people who support like, the support, like they cannot they cannot walk like the people who support and the people. Like who walking on ground like and kind of the people who standing outside. Not in that problem. For the people who support I just want to say that please. Like please be whole. Because like every day, you have to believe it. You have to look yourself and you have to believe other there's a lot of people who are trying their best. trying their best and risking their life even the light for the like for the country change. So believe them and please carry on. I know you have already like you guys already really tired. I know that. And I I have a conventional wisdom with you so bad. Please. Please like hold for like few months, please. That's for them. But the people for the people who walk in on growl, I just want to share like me, so please, like honest yourself, honest yourself. Like, don't waste. Like don't waste about this support or don't waste the time or don't always kind of think you like everything like Every day, day by day, the people are suffering that people are dying. So like, don't waste and be honest them. So the people who are standing outside, please don't be silent. And please understand us, please stand for the truth. This is like not only for memmer This is also for yourself. Like, as you're like challenging the democracy is challenging you guys. We believe that democracy is kind of freedom, like no mem are is they're challenging the democracy they are challenging the freedom or people, if such kind of like to teeter a stronger and stronger, if they are stronger and stronger, they will challenge other country also. Now the example is, look, just look the Ukraine, Russia, like why the people are like supporting like the wind, the other country likes all so much. Because they're afraid this is a kind of challenge in Yammer also the same how the name Yammer is no civil war, bro. It's not civil war anymore. It is challenging, the freedom is challenging. It is challenging the democracy that you guys need to know. Trust me. So that's it, that I want to say, every time if you don't care, every day, every time that people are dying, because the people are dying for the democracy, the people risking their life, for democracy for the freedom. If you think if you thought that this is all this is not my problem, this is their issue. So like this issue and this problem, we can we knock your door in one day, that's quite sure, please, like, keep that word in mind. Please. Thank you so much.
Host 2:11:43
Thank you for your time with us and best wishes to you as you transition to a new role in supporting the revolution. And we should also mention that you are starting up a podcast discussion in Burmese language, we are going to be launching or perhaps we've already launched because we're not quite sure of the release of this episode. And the episodes you're working on betcha tune will be leading Burmese discussions from these podcasts that we'll also be including in our feeds, so that many of these important conversations, he'll be on the other side of the chair as the as the host and talking to a variety of people associated with the revolution to talk about some of these these topics in depth and get their stories and their voices and their feelings out there. And perhaps we'll even even even do a couple of English. And if that's the case, then then I'm on this current channel will will include those as well. So we'll have the chance to be the host hear here also. But for any of those bilingual listeners that also speak and understand Burmese, we invite you to check out his upcoming episodes or perhaps, as mentioned, the episodes are already out because we're not sure of the release date of either. But to check out those episodes that you'll be doing, that'll be in Burmese language and to enjoy those. So we have that to look forward to. And we'll be working on supporting that as an ongoing project. And with that, you know, Tim, thank you for talking to us a year later. Perhaps we'll have another conversation next year and see how things have changed.
Chit Tun 2:13:17
Yes, sure. I'm also thanks really to you or so before giving me a chance to talk to share about my experience. Thank you so much Wow, am I? Done.
Host 2:14:05
as inspiring as today's guest was, I know from experience that when you're listening from so far away, there can also be a certain kind of helplessness and hearing about people's dire struggles. Thankfully, our nonprofit mission offers a reliable way for interested listeners to provide financial assistance to those local communities who need it most. All donations are sent to support urgent humanitarian missions, as well as those vulnerable people's being impacted by the military community. By taking an active role in helping to support the movement. You can help ensure that people like today's speaker, have even a few more resources to draw upon and can manage even just another week and continuing their efforts. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution, any form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions, aiding those local communities who need it most donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CTM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by our nonprofit mission that or Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's BETTRBUR ma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either the Insight Myanmar better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.